INFO-VAX Tue, 27 Mar 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 171 Contents: Excursion Question Re: Excursion Question Re: Excursion Question Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: New site for OpenVMS books Phoenix electric cars RSX-11M-Plus Pool questions Re: So has any one thought about this? Re: So has any one thought about this? Re: So has any one thought about this? So has any one thought about this? Re: So has any one thought about this? Re: So has any one thought about this? (Wiki) Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? 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Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:28:57 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Excursion Question Message-ID: Running a test program on VMS which launches dbg which display on a laptop running XP/Excursion and I get following warning on the VMS side (actually on a PuTTY window on an W2K server to the VMS box) X Toolkit Warning: Name: src_vert_sbar Class: XmScrollBar The specified scrollbar value is greater than the maximum scrollbar value minus the scrollbar slider size. Anybody know where I fix this? is it VMS, Excursion or PuTTY? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:56:40 +0200 From: Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski Subject: Re: Excursion Question Message-ID: <20070326235640.0ce8a355.m_roguski@yahoo.com> > Anybody know where I fix this? is it VMS, Excursion or PuTTY? It's Motif warning. It means that something went wrong with initial calculations for slider position (it would be too big), so it's being put at maximum or will span across entire scrollbar, depending on scrollbar type (XmScrollBar, XmScale). Excursion must have some weird defaults set. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:42:10 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Excursion Question Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:56:40 -0800, Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski wrote: >> Anybody know where I fix this? is it VMS, Excursion or PuTTY? > > It's Motif warning. It means that something went wrong with > initial calculations for slider position (it would be too > big), so it's being put at maximum or will span across > entire scrollbar, depending on scrollbar type (XmScrollBar, > XmScale). Excursion must have some weird defaults set. I tried it with notepad, and did not get the message. It is my hunch that it has to do with the fact that DBG has two scroll bars, one in the source pane and the other in the command area. Couldn't find anything useful looking in the Excursion Control Panel. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:04:25 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: Bill Todd wrote in news:pZqdneBEEZoefpvbnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com: > n.rieck@sympatico.ca wrote: > > ... > > below a depth of 3f (1m) most >> American soil is never warmer than 65F or colder than 45F. > > According to the first three frost-line maps that fall to hand, that's > incorrect. Average worst-case depth of frost penetration (which is > what you've got to design things like building footings around) hits > 3' for around 30% of the continental U.S. (thus one might very roughly > estimate that something like half the continental U.S. occasionally > experiences 3' deep soil temperatures below 45F), and the *maximum* > depth of frost penetration (which depends more on very local > conditions such as wind and sun exposure, soil type, vegetation, etc.) > is 3' or more in at least some spots across about half the continental > U.S. These statistics do not include Alaska - or Hawaii, Puerto Rico, > and Guam, but I seriously doubt that they affect the average nearly as > much as Alaska does. > > You need to go at least 6' down (if you can - I don't have nearly that > much soil cover myself) to find temperatures that vary only a few > degrees F. from a location's overall average yearly temperature. I > was somewhat surprised that I couldn't find a graph of average annual > temperatures across the continental U.S. - around me it's about 46F, > and the overall average is about 53F, so it would seem reasonable to > believe that the vast majority of the continental U.S. that has 6' of > soil cover is warm enough 6' down to support ground-source heat pumps > (45F does seem like a reasonable minimum for that: you can't use > circulating water, even with anti-freeze, to extract any significant > amount of heat from frozen ground, and the soil has to be far enough > above freezing that extracting the heat doesn't drop it below freezing > around the piping). > > I certainly support the use of ground-source heat pumps - but people > should know what amount of earth-moving they may have to get into to > use them. > > - bill Suppose you had sufficient property and offered up that property as a depository for clean fill. You might first lay out some loops and once you had sufficient fill, you could charge your loops and start extracting heat. Also, in areas where people must install a drain field, it would seem a good idea to have loops installed below each of the runs and be less costly since some ditching has already been done. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:49:45 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: John Santos wrote: > In article , > billtodd@metrocast.net says... >> John Santos wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> They had those as well (they've been available for several years), as >>> a direct replacement for what are called in the US "3-way bulbs." >>> They have two contacts on the bottom and two filaments instead of >>> one. Usually 50W & 100W or 40W and 60W filaments (in the incandescent >>> version.) The switch and socket are designed with multiple positions >>> to provide power to one, the other, and then both contacts, so you >>> have 3 brightness choices. I have on such CFL in a lamp designed >>> for a 3-way incandescent bulb. (Strangely, the sequence with the CFL >>> bulb is off-dim-bright-medium-off instead of off-dim-medium-bright-off, >>> but the info on the package indicates this is the way it is supposed >>> to work. I've been meaning to look at it closely some time to see >>> if I can figure out why it acts this way. >> Let us know if you do: on the face of it, what you describe should not >> be possible, since whether both light sources in the bulb are powered >> should be solely a function of how the switch works, not how the bulb >> works (i.e., at most the bulb could swap the positions of the low and >> medium settings, but the 'both on' setting would still be at its >> original switch position). >> >> - bill > > It's exactly like I remembered it! (Maybe!) It has 4 U-shaped > tubes. All 4 light on all 3 "on" positions, but the brightness > varies. I interpreted your 'two filaments' statement as describing two separate tubes, powered separately - which was why the behavior seemed impossible. If there's actual intelligence within the bulb (rather than just two separately-powered light sources), then any combination could be made to work. ... > The three way socket has a center pin, a ring, and the outer > screw threads as the 3 contacts. I think the screw threads > are neutral, the center pin is hot for the bright filament, > and the ring is hot for the dim filament, and both are hot > for the "bright" position. (It's remarkably hard to find any > info on the web to confirm this. Lots of ads for light bulbs, > but mostly a swamp of stuff about wiring 3-way switches (two > switches to control a single permanent light fixture, e.g. > a stairway light controlled by switches at the top and bottom > of the stairs. This is a completely different topic. All > the "technical" info I could find just says 3-way bulbs have > 2 filaments.) Ascertaining how the switch provides power requires only a simple volt meter (or even just a clip lead, an insulated probe wire with bare ends - not bare enough to fray if the wire is stranded, a small 110v bulb - perhaps from a holiday window candle, and the aid of a partner with a steady hand to hold one end of the probe wire to the bulb point-contact while you touch the other to the inside socket contacts). But given the way you describe the fluorescent working (and assuming that it doesn't work the same way with an incandescent 3-way bulb) that won't tell you anything about how the 3-way fluorescent uses the power (since if your description of the switch's incandescent-bulb operation is correct - are you sure that it was *this* switch that behaved that way? - then the fluorescent clearly *doesn't* use the 'both hot' setting to provide the brightest light). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:14:12 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: <8YUNh.37173$E02.15140@newsb.telia.net> Bill Todd wrote: > It's also why I assumed that the drilling approach which Jan suggested > required moving water to conduct heat to the hole: There is groundwater always moving around, so that's no major problem, they get their water from another hole 20 maters from the heatpump holes. > drilling cost around $10/foot 17 years ago when we had our well > drilled, and I doubt that it's gone down since then - so even 165 m. > of hole would cost a fair amount,... The whole installation including the drilling and the heatpump itself costed aprox $18-20.000 USD. The old oilburner used oil for aprox $6.500/year (4.5 m3 @ aprox $1500 USD/m3). So payoff should be aprox 5 years (the electricity bill has gone up some, of course. The compressor draws aprox 2 KW while running, but delivers 8 KW of heat, OTOH...) It's two holes aprox 8" wide and aprox 100 m deap. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:29:05 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: Bill Todd wrote in news:BeydnZvw8JlCjJXbnZ2dnUVZ_qGjnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com: > Tad Winters wrote: > > ... > >> Suppose you had sufficient property and offered up that property as a >> depository for clean fill. You might first lay out some loops and >> once you had sufficient fill, you could charge your loops and start >> extracting heat. > > That would require either a) purchasing another heat source for the > period of time that you were accumulating the fill or b) deferring > construction (assuming it was a new house) for years (i.e., planning > far ahead and/or being very patient about waiting). I also don't know > how well fill substitutes for packed earth in this regard: on the one > hand it might be a better insulator from cold (and heat...) above, but > on the other might not conduct heat very well away from the piping > (especially as it would be built up above where the water table had > been, hence possibly drier and less conductive for that reason). > > And in any event you're talking about a *lot* of fill, based on Mike's > numbers. > >> Also, in areas where people must install a drain field, it would seem >> a good idea to have loops installed below each of the runs and be >> less costly since some ditching has already been done. > > Mike referred to 600 m. of piping in three 55 m. trenches: that's > probably a great deal larger than a single-family-dwelling leach field > normally needs to be (ours, supporting a 4-bedroom house in > poorly-draining soil, required only 12 4' x 12' chambers - i.e., was > about 48' x 12'). > > It's also why I assumed that the drilling approach which Jan suggested > required moving water to conduct heat to the hole: drilling cost > around $10/foot 17 years ago when we had our well drilled, and I doubt > that it's gone down since then - so even 165 m. of hole would cost a > fair amount, and I suspect that at least double that would be required > (since a 6"- 8" diameter hole probably wouldn't offer the space that a > trench does for multiple parallel pipe runs separated by sufficient > distance to allow good conduction to each). > > - bill > Perhaps they area in which I live is much more suited to warmer soil, though I'm north of 45 degrees, I'm also within 100 miles of the Pacific Ocean. Years ago, I rented a ditcher for less than $50 and made a ditch about 40 yards long in which to drop a water supply line. The ditch was no more than 3 feet deep. The supply line has never frozen. The time spent ditching was less than an hour and maybe only 30 minutes. I'll grant you there wasn't any sizable stones, so I really didn't have to stop during the process. If she was going to heat with a heat pump, I suspect the ditching wouldn't take much more effort. Of course, she's heated exclusively with wood for over 10 years, so I don't see that stopping. (I've been told the freeze in this area is only down to about 6 inches.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:00:23 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: Tad Winters wrote: ... > Perhaps they area in which I live is much more suited to warmer soil, > though I'm north of 45 degrees, I'm also within 100 miles of the Pacific > Ocean. That probably helps moderate your coldest temperatures, and may also help by providing reliable snow cover (snow's a great insulator compared to soil - with good, constant snow cover, the soil may not freeze at all). Years ago, I rented a ditcher for less than $50 and made a ditch > about 40 yards long in which to drop a water supply line. The ditch was > no more than 3 feet deep. The supply line has never frozen. All that means is that the temperature 3' down never dropped significantly below freezing (since convection from the house and/or the well source will at least to some degree keep the water in the pipe from freezing even if the surrounding ground does slightly). Here in central NH 4' down is considered sufficient for water supply pipes. That's nowhere nearly warm enough for ground-source heat pumping, though: the 45F figure quoted seems like a reasonable minimum, since it has to be warm enough that the surrounding soil won't freeze even after significant amount of heat have been extracted from it. The time > spent ditching was less than an hour and maybe only 30 minutes. I'll > grant you there wasn't any sizable stones, so I really didn't have to > stop during the process. If she was going to heat with a heat pump, I > suspect the ditching wouldn't take much more effort. The three 55 m. trenches described elsewhere (for use in England IIRC, an area which may have a climate similar to yours) would probably require about double that depth and 4x - 5x the length. Of course, she's > heated exclusively with wood for over 10 years, so I don't see that > stopping. I got tired of feeding the high-efficiency wood stove at night after 13 years (the yearly hassle of finding decent wood to burn didn't help, either - and I never got sufficiently motivated to set aside a large area where we could cure our own), but in a more temperate climate with a real wood furnace it's a very viable option. A friend successfully used a pellet stove with automatic feed for years, but also found it difficult to obtain quality pellets for it in this region (they were supposedly easier to obtain in the West). > (I've been told the freeze in this area is only down to about 6 inches.) Don't forget that worst-case (not average) frost depth is what you have to worry about - plus enough more depth to let get the worst-case surrounding soil temperature up to around 45F. I really don't want to sound discouraging, since I think heat pumps are a great investment (as well as an environmentally-conscientious one). Anyone considering one should obviously get advice from an expert: it's not something you want to find doesn't meet your needs after the work has been done. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:10:44 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: > >> It's also why I assumed that the drilling approach which Jan suggested >> required moving water to conduct heat to the hole: > > There is groundwater always moving around, so that's no major > problem, they get their water from another hole 20 maters from > the heatpump holes. > >> drilling cost around $10/foot 17 years ago when we had our well > > drilled, and I doubt that it's gone down since then - so even 165 m. > > of hole would cost a fair amount,... > > The whole installation including the drilling and the heatpump > itself costed aprox $18-20.000 USD. The old oilburner used > oil for aprox $6.500/year (4.5 m3 @ aprox $1500 USD/m3). > > So payoff should be aprox 5 years (the electricity bill has > gone up some, of course. Comparisons are complex. For example, high insulation levels (especially in new construction) and efficient furnaces (our fuel cost per year three years ago was about $800 to heat a 3500 square foot house in a fairly cold climate, though that's gone up to about $1300 this winter due to rising propane prices) also can have similar payback periods, but if you use them then the payback period for the heat pump gets a lot longer. The compressor draws aprox 2 KW > while running, but delivers 8 KW of heat, OTOH...) > > It's two holes aprox 8" wide and aprox 100 m deap. I suspect that might not work for us. Our well is about 120 m. deep (in ledge) and provides only 2 - 3 liters per minute of water - plenty for our needs given a large reservoir to even out demand, but certainly nowhere nearly enough flow to heat the amount of water you described. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:09:53 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:00:23 -0800, Bill Todd wrote: > Tad Winters wrote: > > ... > >> Perhaps they area in which I live is much more suited to warmer soil, >> though I'm north of 45 degrees, I'm also within 100 miles of the >> Pacific Ocean. > > That probably helps moderate your coldest temperatures, and may also > help by providing reliable snow cover (snow's a great insulator compared > to soil - with good, constant snow cover, the soil may not freeze at > all). > > Years ago, I rented a ditcher for less than $50 and made a ditch >> about 40 yards long in which to drop a water supply line. The ditch >> was no more than 3 feet deep. The supply line has never frozen. > > All that means is that the temperature 3' down never dropped > significantly below freezing (since convection from the house and/or the > well source will at least to some degree keep the water in the pipe from > freezing even if the surrounding ground does slightly). Here in central > NH 4' down is considered sufficient for water supply pipes. Here is a bit of trivia from graduate class problem. How far do you have to go down to have the temperature be 6 months out of phase to surface temp given sinusoidal solar forcing? Answer: 2m in Upsala about 60 deg N > > That's nowhere nearly warm enough for ground-source heat pumping, > though: the 45F figure quoted seems like a reasonable minimum, since it > has to be warm enough that the surrounding soil won't freeze even after > significant amount of heat have been extracted from it. > > The time >> spent ditching was less than an hour and maybe only 30 minutes. I'll >> grant you there wasn't any sizable stones, so I really didn't have to >> stop during the process. If she was going to heat with a heat pump, I >> suspect the ditching wouldn't take much more effort. > > The three 55 m. trenches described elsewhere (for use in England IIRC, > an area which may have a climate similar to yours) would probably > require about double that depth and 4x - 5x the length. > > Of course, she's >> heated exclusively with wood for over 10 years, so I don't see that >> stopping. > > I got tired of feeding the high-efficiency wood stove at night after 13 > years (the yearly hassle of finding decent wood to burn didn't help, > either - and I never got sufficiently motivated to set aside a large > area where we could cure our own), but in a more temperate climate with > a real wood furnace it's a very viable option. A friend successfully > used a pellet stove with automatic feed for years, but also found it > difficult to obtain quality pellets for it in this region (they were > supposedly easier to obtain in the West). > >> (I've been told the freeze in this area is only down to about 6 inches.) > > Don't forget that worst-case (not average) frost depth is what you have > to worry about - plus enough more depth to let get the worst-case > surrounding soil temperature up to around 45F. > > I really don't want to sound discouraging, since I think heat pumps are > a great investment (as well as an environmentally-conscientious one). > Anyone considering one should obviously get advice from an expert: it's > not something you want to find doesn't meet your needs after the work > has been done. > > - bill -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:16:52 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > I'm not sure I'd be happy with a heat pump much further north. I am= > sure I'd be happy with a heat pump just about anywhere further south= =2E Most modern heat pumps, when sized properly, can maintain temperature in = a home=20 down to an external temperature of -10. After that it struggles a bit. Here, Hydro Qu=E9bec wants the backup to be non-electric. Many homes are = on=20 "bi-energy" systems. When temperature drops below -12, the electric meter= sends=20 a signal to the thermostat which switches off the heat pump and goes to t= he=20 backup source, and this is designed to allleviate the load on the electri= cal=20 grid, thus reducing the need to build new power stations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:21:48 +0100 From: Paul Sture Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: In article <4602ca9a$0$8753$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, "John Wallace" wrote: > "Paul Anderson" wrote in message > news:paul.anderson-401C2D.12171122032007@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > > > Except your heating system is more efficient at heating the air than > > incandescent light bulbs. > > > > How does that work then? > > I put 1 kilowatt of electric power into a light, any kind of light, > tungsten, carbon arc, CFL, I get 1 kilowatt of heat in the room. Efficiency > 100%. > > I put gas or heating oil, at a rate equivalent to 1 kilowatts input power, > into a typical central heating boiler (you call them "furnaces"?) and a good > part of the power input goes up the chimney (flue?). Efficiency maybe 40-70% > depending on various factors (though modern condensing boilers allegedly do > rather better than 90%). > > The electric light/heater is more efficient than gas or oil, on that basis, > because all the energy goes into heating the room rather than some of it > getting wasted up the chimney. > > On that basis, is electricity an appropriate form of energy for room > heating? That's a different question altogether and requires consideration > of factors other than just "efficiency". For example, lots of high tech > stuff (e.g. a VMS system) can run directly off electricity, but are there > any VMS systems that can be powered directly by fossil fuel? > From the personal experience of trying to keep a house warm and seeing the bills, gas is more appropriate than electricity. It is also better for cooking, because the heat is instantaneous - consider boiling an egg or making some toast, where it takes time for the electric version to heat up. One thing that leapt out of that C4 film the other night was the bit about Thatcher. I could not at first understand why she deliberately bumped the price of gas to be "equal" to the price of electricity. AH, that was about privatisation, -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:19:27 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: New site for OpenVMS books Message-ID: <46087F2F.4AAFA51B@spam.comcast.net> yyyc186@hughes.net wrote: > > On Mar 24, 8:29 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > > > You must *REALLY* hate Amazon, etc. to go such personal expense... > > Words cannot describe. There is a reason they don't get to stock the > books and never will. Apologies in advance for the way this sounds... O.k. So we keep these books out of the mainstream, thus insuring that the masses will never see them. This benefits OpenVMS ... how? I'm sure you have your reasons; however, in the scope of the bigger picture, you may want to reconsider - unless those bridges were burnt and totally destroyed. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:05:00 -0500 From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" Subject: Phoenix electric cars Message-ID: <130g9r33cdeab81@news.supernews.com> http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com fyi -- Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Savannah GA 31404 Tel: 912 447 6622 x201 Mail: dturner-atnospam-islandco-com (You know what to do with the dashes) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:55:49 -0700 From: Jeff Cameron Subject: RSX-11M-Plus Pool questions Message-ID: Since there is no comp.os.rsx group, and with all the old timer's, like myself that have begun their VMS zealotness with PDP-11's and RSX, I am posting this request for information on this comp.os.vms board. If you are not interested in RSX-11M+, I would suggest you ignore this post. First, a little background. After leaving MTI, I have now landed another job with a company that uses PDP-11s running RSX-11M+ to monitor and track the manufacturing of product lots. I am actually performing backups using BRU to/from RA-92 disks and 9-Track tapes. While I know I will be receiving many responses of condolences, both sincere and sarcastic, they are paying me well. In fact, very well! I have given myself the title of "Paleocybernetic Analyst". The fact that these 4 PDP-11 systems are still running after 30 years, is a testament to the quality and reliability of DEC equipment. In the past 10 years, the only hardware problems that we have had are a few dead DZ-11 boards. I'm sure many of you will respond with "Why doesn't your company migrate to a more modern platform?" Don't worry, we are! But this migration is embedded into a complete factory floor modernization, complete with modern manufacturing process monitoring and control systems, who's "Go-Live" date is slated for late 2009 or Early 2010. My job is to maintain the 4 PDP-11 systems through that time. Because of the nature of the company's business, our operations are bound and monitored by Federal Regulations, so the data collected in the manufacturing of the product must be maintained and accessible for 15 years. So besides maintaining the hardware for another 3 years, we will have to maintain the data and be able to provide the ability to analyze the data after the PDP-11s are finally retired. These PDP-11's are on a segregated DECNet network (thick ethernet with AUI connections along with 1 VAX 4000 and several DECServer Terminal servers). This DECNet backbone runs throughout our 3/4 square mile campus in several buildings. Users who use the in house developed Reporting programs, which are written in Macro-11, connect to the PDP-11 systems and single VAX, via Serial lines connected from their PC's COM ports to these DECServers. My immediate project is to provide IP connectivity to this network, both for Telnet and FTP connectivity. Fortunately, Process Software does have TCPWare for the PDP-11/RSX. Not only will this allow us to remove the DECServers, and localize the dedicated DECNet ethernet to a DELNI in the computer room, but it will give us connectivity to our large SAN storage on the corporate LAN. Using FTP, I can then store the binary RSX data files (which are currently offline on racks of 9track tapes) online and available to users from their PCs. Here is where I need your help. First, I need a network bridge; one that does AUI to either 10-Base-T, 100-Base-T, or Fiber. The bridge only needs to bridge IP traffic and not DECNet. Any recommendations for such a bridge wold be helpful. Since the Dedicated DECNet network only does 10 Megabits, a 10-Base-T connection would be more than sufficient. My next question is more involved, as it pertains to available pool space in RSX. I have read all the RSX documentation I can find relating to pool space, and I am still confused about a few things. I need to accurately quantify the impact of the TCPWare on available pool space on one of our PDP-11/RSX systems. I know that there are two types of pool in RSX, Primary and Secondary. I can quantify the situation of Secondary pool using the MCR command >SET /SECPOL or the DCL command >SHOW SECONDARY along with the command >SHOW PARTITIONS. I think I have a good grasp on Secondary pool. The TCPWare documentation describes its pool usage very clearly, however it uses the term "POOL" and "INPOOL" instead of "Primary Pool" or "Secondary Pool". The TCPWare "POOL" requirements are 700 to 1200 (no units specified). The TCPWare "INPOOL" usage is defined as: =(4*n)+24 where "n" is the number of TCP connections and the answer is in KBytes. Question 1 : Is "INPOOL" the same as "Primary Pool", "Secondary Pool", or possibly something else? Next, the RSX documentation states that the "Primary Pool" values can be determined from the MCR command >SET /POOL. This yields the following results: POOL=1200:01150.:01538. According to the documentation, the results shown are: POOL=:.: Where: = The first location for user partitions (in bytes) = The longest free block (in words) = The total pool space (in words) Based on the values shown from the SET /POOL command, I have 2300 bytes (2.3 Kbytes) of free space which is more than an order of magnitude smaller than the TCPWare requirements, which say that just one connection would require 28 Kbytes. Also, the RSX programmer here that originally programmed the system says we ar at the maximum of pool space alowed. If so that would be 1538 from the "total" value above. If TCPWare could take up 1200 of the 1538, then it would be a big pool hog. Clearly something (if not my reasoning) is not correct here. What if INPOOL refers to secondary pool? Here the RSX MCR command SET /SECPOL results in: SECPOL=804.:1024.:78% According to the documentation, the results shown are: SECPOL=:: Where: = Number of Free blocks in secondary pool (64 bytes/block) = Size of secondary pool in blocks (64 bytes/block) = Percentage of free secondary pool space. Based on these values, if INPOOL refers to secondary pool, then I might be able to accommodate up to 6 IP connections. So I'm hoping INPOOL refers to Secondary pool. Question 2 : In regards to primary pool, do I consider the value as the total amount of free primary pool space, even though it is listed as the "longest free block"? One thing to note. I cannot enable the PMT (Pool Monitor Task), because I would have to write up documentation as to how this would impact the production system and go through a lengthy approval cycle, since it is not currently part of the system. I am already having enough problems attempting to write the "Change Requirements" just to test the TCPWare. Question 3 : What is the basic difference between Primary and Secondary pool? Based on the chapter 8 on Memory Management in the RSX System Management guide, I surmise that Primary pool is for internal RSX tables and data structures, and secondary pool is for shared application memory and installed tasks. Is this a correct assessment? Final Question : Does the RSX system Generation utility alow you to increase Primary Pool and/or Secondary Pool? If so what are the limits (maximum pool size) for each? The doumentation always shows the MCR command >SET /POOL=1200 as setting the top value to 120000 (octal). Is this the all-time maximum alowed in RSX? Thank you for your time in reading my long winded question, and any insight you might be able to provide. I have a strong background in VMS, so you may use comparisons and contrasts, if you wish. Thank you Jeff Cameron = ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 22:18:46 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: So has any one thought about this? Message-ID: "Sue" wrote in news:1174942655.670702.69060 @n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: > Dear Newsgroup, > > Well my friends in a moment of insanity I went and did a little bit of > research about Wiki's. The best research to do on a wiki is to actively participate on one. I'm an administrator on http://en.wikinews.org and I can say that this is something that isn't going away. The ease of use and low barrier to user participation make wiki ideal for a great number of corporate documents. I expect to see more and more companies adopt the technology for internal documentation and serving customers. The honesty you are forced to adopt with a wiki is refreshing and will probably help those companies that adopt the technology. For an example, HP-Interex Belux have made their site a wiki, http://www.hp-interex.be. (I'm the one front row extreme right in the photo - just so Bob knows what Satan looks like. :-)). Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 15:42:59 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: So has any one thought about this? Message-ID: <1174948979.539512.228770@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Mar 26, 6:18 pm, Doc wrote: > For an example, HP-Interex Belux have made their site a wiki,http://www.hp-interex.be. (I'm the one front row extreme right in the > photo - just so Bob knows what Satan looks like. :-)). > > Doc. Why Doc, you even have the properly shaped facial hair for the devil... :-P ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 22:47:33 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: So has any one thought about this? Message-ID: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" wrote in news:1174948979.539512.228770@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: > On Mar 26, 6:18 pm, Doc wrote: > >> For an example, HP-Interex Belux have made their site a >> wiki,http://www.hp-interex.be. (I'm the one front row extreme right >> in the photo - just so Bob knows what Satan looks like. :-)). >> >> Doc. > > Why Doc, you even have the properly shaped facial hair for the > devil... :-P My facial hair looked like that *before* I'd heard of Frank Zappa. :-) Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 13:57:35 -0700 From: "Sue" Subject: So has any one thought about this? Message-ID: <1174942655.670702.69060@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, Well my friends in a moment of insanity I went and did a little bit of research about Wiki's. What are Wiki's you may ask - Wiki is a piece of server software that allows users to freely create and edit Web page content using any Web browser. Wiki supports hyperlinks and has a simple text syntax for creating new pages and crosslinks between internal pages on the fly. Wiki is unusual among group communication mechanisms in that it allows the organization of contributions to be edited in addition to the content itself. Like many simple concepts, "open editing" has some profound and subtle effects on Wiki usage. Allowing everyday users to create and edit any page in a Web site is exciting in that it encourages democratic use of the Web and promotes content composition by nontechnical users. Why was Sue looking there you may also ask? Maybe it's a cool thing for VMS folks, I don't know, the part that unnerved me was the security part, but maybe it's a good marketing/ communications tool. Not everything needs to be a stockexchange or a lifesaving device. More Information - One minute Wiki http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OneMinuteWi This is just me looking around wondering if anyone has looked at this and what they think. Sue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:01:32 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: So has any one thought about this? Message-ID: <46087AFC.745BBEF6@spam.comcast.net> Sue wrote: > > Dear Newsgroup, > > Well my friends in a moment of insanity I went and did a little bit of > research about Wiki's. > > [snip] > > This is just me looking around wondering if anyone has looked at this > and what they think. Let me know what I can do to help. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 16:44:40 -0700 From: "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" Subject: Re: So has any one thought about this? (Wiki) Message-ID: <1174952680.616492.106160@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 26, 4:57 pm, "Sue" wrote: > Dear Newsgroup, > > Well my friends in a moment of insanity I went and did a little bit of > research about Wiki's. : > Maybe it's a cool thing for VMS folks, I don't know, the part that > unnerved me was the security part, but maybe it's a good marketing/ > communications tool. For some pertinent comments by Hoff and Jean-Fran=E7ois Pi=E9ronne see on other discussion which was initiated today: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=3D1112= 271 Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:07:39 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:13:22 -0800, Doug Phillips wrote: > Time yet for subgroups in COV? > > It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is > a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some > new thoughts? > How about if I host it, and then like the good citisens of ancient rome we could give thumbs down to certain posters:-) -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 12:13:22 -0700 From: "Doug Phillips" Subject: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <1174936402.742865.151550@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Time yet for subgroups in COV? It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some new thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:22:20 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <56qogfF28fspaU1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-03-26 21:13, "Doug Phillips" wrote: > Time yet for subgroups in COV? > > It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is > a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some > new thoughts? Get accustomed to your newsreader's "ignore thread" function (and keyboard shortcut) as well as its killfile options ... Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 13:27:32 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <1174940852.794781.118190@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 26, 3:07 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:13:22 -0800, Doug Phillips > wrote: > > > Time yet for subgroups in COV? > > > It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is > > a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some > > new thoughts? > > How about if I host it, and then like the good citisens of ancient rome we > could give thumbs down to certain posters:-) > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:http://www.opera.com/mail/ you mean CENSORSHIP? that is what liberals do when they don't want the truth to be heard or an argument that goes againset their socialistic atheist logic ... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:38:25 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:27:32 -0800, wrote: > On Mar 26, 3:07 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:13:22 -0800, Doug Phillips >> >> wrote: >> >> > Time yet for subgroups in COV? >> >> > It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is >> > a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some >> > new thoughts? >> >> How about if I host it, and then like the good citisens of ancient rome >> we >> could give thumbs down to certain posters:-) >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > you mean CENSORSHIP? > > that is what liberals do when they don't want the > truth to be heard or an argument that goes > againset their socialistic atheist logic ... > Well, this is supposed to be a technical newsgroup, and I am sure there are other fora where you can post your beliefs. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:57:11 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <00A65350.428D33F6@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1174936402.742865.151550@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, "Doug Phillips" writes: > > >Time yet for subgroups in COV? > >It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is >a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some >new thoughts? comp.os.vms.useless.fucking.comp.os.vms.clutter-babble -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 15:14:45 -0700 From: "Doug Phillips" Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <1174947284.995323.313580@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 26, 4:57 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1174936402.742865.151...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, "Doug Phillips" writes: > > > > >Time yet for subgroups in COV? > > >It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is > >a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some > >new thoughts? > > comp.os.vms.useless.fucking.comp.os.vms.clutter-babble > Maybe we could find a "genius" to moderate that sng. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:25:23 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: > Maybe we could find a "genius" to moderate that sng. Perhaps. but then moderators would have to be very busy to scan all posts. Ever so often some post gets out of hand and degenerates. But I would say that over the course of a year, the newsgroups has an overall focus on VMS. (and yes, a focus on VMS doesn't necessarily mean all is technical) With a shrinking VMS community, splitting VMS into multiple newsgroups risks lowering the content amount to a point where people don't bother with it. I specifically use the word "community" here because while those out of context threads may be annoying and difficult to resist, it does provide some insight on the people who participate here. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 22:44:13 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in news:00A65350.428D33F6@SendSpamHere.ORG: > In article <1174936402.742865.151550@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > "Doug Phillips" writes: >> >> >>Time yet for subgroups in COV? >> >>It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is >>a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some >>new thoughts? > > comp.os.vms.useless.fucking.comp.os.vms.clutter-babble Heh. I would strongly recommend that people get the group via a newsreader to make getting through what's here a lot faster. For Windows I use Xnews, which I know other people run under Wine on Linux. I'd hate to think there's still people get this via Info-VAX. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 2007 16:04:26 -0700 From: "Doug Phillips" Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <1174950266.016056.48170@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Mar 26, 3:22 pm, Michael Unger wrote: > On 2007-03-26 21:13, "Doug Phillips" wrote: > > > Time yet for subgroups in COV? > > > It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is > > a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some > > new thoughts? > > Get accustomed to your newsreader's "ignore thread" function (and > keyboard shortcut) as well as its killfile options ... > I stopped using email and download-type readers for ng's long ago, I now use google (which does a fine job at threading, and is accessible from everywhere I go) and find that ignoring OT's that don't interest me takes practically no time and no resource. That isn't my point. Just thought I'd bring it up since 1) OT posts will never stop happening so why not give them a place to happen, 2) some folks seem to be extremely bothered by OT posts so why not give them a place where they don't have to see them and 3) subgroups haven't come up in a while. COV is a very diverse community with many intelligent people who have at least one thing in common. Many of this group know each other, or have at least become familiar / comfortable with each other here. Sure, there are many other places to discuss anything and everything, but when you get to be as old as many of us, going out and making new "friends" just isn't as easy as it used to be.;-) Besides, you never know when VMS might just pop back into the discussion. (8-O Oh, and JF (re another post), if you look at google groups, you'll see that COV is marked as "very active". Rather than dilute the group, I think subs would make more people comfortable posting a technical question where there was less chatter, and others would feel more at ease posting a personal opinion where they knew they weren't going to be scolded for being Off Topic. You never know, though. Life is weird. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:21:00 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <4608555a$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Doug Phillips wrote: > Time yet for subgroups in COV? > > It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is > a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some > new thoughts? comp.os.vms.user for normal user questions (like DCL) comp.os.vms.sysmgmt for system manager questions comp.os.vms.programmer for programmer questions comp.os.vms.advocacy for why VMS is the best OS in existence comp.os.vms.misc for everything that does not fit in the other A news-group split will need to be coordinated with the mail-list ! Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 00:51:40 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <00A65368.A2A7D6EE@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , Doc writes: > > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in >news:00A65350.428D33F6@SendSpamHere.ORG: > >> In article <1174936402.742865.151550@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >> "Doug Phillips" writes: >>> >>> >>>Time yet for subgroups in COV? >>> >>>It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is >>>a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some >>>new thoughts? >> >> comp.os.vms.useless.fucking.comp.os.vms.clutter-babble > >Heh. > >I would strongly recommend that people get the group via a newsreader to >make getting through what's here a lot faster. > >For Windows I use Xnews, which I know other people run under Wine on >Linux. > >I'd hate to think there's still people get this via Info-VAX. Well Doc, I do use a newsreader. There's still no call for all of the OT drivel. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:57:01 -0400 From: "Richard B. gilbert" Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <46085DCD.3010805@comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > >> Time yet for subgroups in COV? >> >> It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is >> a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some >> new thoughts? > > > comp.os.vms.user for normal user questions (like DCL) > comp.os.vms.sysmgmt for system manager questions > comp.os.vms.programmer for programmer questions > comp.os.vms.advocacy for why VMS is the best OS in existence > comp.os.vms.misc for everything that does not fit in the other > > A news-group split will need to be coordinated with the mail-list ! > > Arne Are there enough ON TOPIC postings to support five subgroups? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 00:51:33 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: In article <46085DCD.3010805@comcast.net>, rgilbert88@comcast.net wrote: >Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Doug Phillips wrote: >> >>> Time yet for subgroups in COV? ... > >Are there enough ON TOPIC postings to support five subgroups? Are there enough ON TOPIC postings to support one news group? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:55:00 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <46086b61$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. gilbert wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Doug Phillips wrote: >>> Time yet for subgroups in COV? >>> >>> It's been discussed before, but with all of the OT posts and "this is >>> a technical forum" whining, maybe the Wise and Ancient ones have some >>> new thoughts? >> >> >> comp.os.vms.user for normal user questions (like DCL) >> comp.os.vms.sysmgmt for system manager questions >> comp.os.vms.programmer for programmer questions >> comp.os.vms.advocacy for why VMS is the best OS in existence >> comp.os.vms.misc for everything that does not fit in the other >> >> A news-group split will need to be coordinated with the mail-list ! > > Are there enough ON TOPIC postings to support five subgroups? I think so. 1-2 posts should be enough to keep a group/list alive. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:12:51 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <07032620125161_202002DA@antinode.org> From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) > >Are there enough ON TOPIC postings to support five subgroups? > Are there enough ON TOPIC postings to support one news group? There might be, if there weren't so much unrelated noise/drivel/drool. I'd say that one technical forum and one noise forum would be plenty. It's really pathetic that so many people are so socially isolated that this is as close as they can get to contact with others. It's not all bad that they've found a way to fill the voids in their lives, but it would be so much nicer if they could find some _appropriate_ way to achieve the same result, rather than creating another example of a tragedy of the commons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:50:52 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <4608787C.306C3A04@spam.comcast.net> genius@marblecliff.com wrote: > [snip] Y'know Bob, it didn't take me three minutes to discover that marblecliff.com was registered by - you guessed it - someone at InstantWhip! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:13:35 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <46088bdf$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bill Todd wrote: > Steven M. Schweda wrote: >> It's really pathetic that so many people are so socially isolated >> that this is as close as they can get to contact with others. It's not >> all bad that they've found a way to fill the voids in their lives, but >> it would be so much nicer if they could find some _appropriate_ way to >> achieve the same result, rather than creating another example of a >> tragedy of the commons. > > I'm afraid that you can get off your high horse and shove it, as far as > I'm concerned. I don't participate here because I have nothing else to > do: I participate because there are a fair number of people here whom > I've grown to know over the years who are either interesting to talk > with about significant subjects (and let's face it: *most* subjects are > more significant than VMS-specific ones these days) or who might be > salvageable (the rest I just ignore), and there's nowhere else to find > them. If/when they bring up off-topic subjects in which I have some > interest, I'll continue to chime in if I feel like it. > > Newsgroups create communities that (as is obvious from the current > example) live on beyond their original focus. Deal with it, or feel > free to leave, or lobby for sub-groups (though I suspect that they would > kill c.o.v. faster than anything you've been seeing here might). Last time I checked it was still comp.os.vms not social.old.vms.buddies ! It seems rather obvious to me that it is those that want to use the group for something other than it was created for that should leave and create their own forum and not those that actually want to use it for what it was created for. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:48:53 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <5_ydnRM9_O27CZXbnZ2dnUVZ_rjinZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >> Steven M. Schweda wrote: >>> It's really pathetic that so many people are so socially isolated >>> that this is as close as they can get to contact with others. It's not >>> all bad that they've found a way to fill the voids in their lives, but >>> it would be so much nicer if they could find some _appropriate_ way to >>> achieve the same result, rather than creating another example of a >>> tragedy of the commons. >> >> I'm afraid that you can get off your high horse and shove it, as far >> as I'm concerned. I don't participate here because I have nothing >> else to do: I participate because there are a fair number of people >> here whom I've grown to know over the years who are either interesting >> to talk with about significant subjects (and let's face it: *most* >> subjects are more significant than VMS-specific ones these days) or >> who might be salvageable (the rest I just ignore), and there's nowhere >> else to find them. If/when they bring up off-topic subjects in which >> I have some interest, I'll continue to chime in if I feel like it. >> >> Newsgroups create communities that (as is obvious from the current >> example) live on beyond their original focus. Deal with it, or feel >> free to leave, or lobby for sub-groups (though I suspect that they >> would kill c.o.v. faster than anything you've been seeing here might). > > Last time I checked it was still comp.os.vms not > social.old.vms.buddies ! > > It seems rather obvious to me that it is those that want to use > the group for something other than it was created for that > should leave and create their own forum and not those > that actually want to use it for what it was created for. Unfortunately for you, that just ain't gonna happen if it's not obvious to *them* (which it clearly is not). Tough. As I said: deal with it, feel free to leave yourself, or lobby for sub-grouping. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:40:22 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <07032622402207_202002DA@antinode.org> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= > Last time I checked it was still comp.os.vms not > social.old.vms.buddies ! > > It seems rather obvious to me that it is those that want to use > the group for something other than it was created for that > should leave and create their own forum and not those > that actually want to use it for what it was created for. Obvious to several of us, it seems, but apparently far from obvious to the people who really ought to get a clue. A person who thinks that he can rightfully "chime in if [he] feel[s] like it", and apparently any_where_ he feels like it, appears to me to be a small-scale sociopath, rather like someone who discards litter in a public park. Sadly, this seems to suggest little hope for improvement in my lifetime. The clutter here does make the ITRC forum more attractive, in spite of its erratic operation and the thought police, which is no small achievement. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.171 ************************