INFO-VAX Sat, 12 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 259 Contents: Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) IDE)) Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris)) Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 May 22Ma Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 May 22Ma Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 May 22Ma Re: PID for detached process. Re: PID for detached process. Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: SYSMAN problem wha' happen? Re: wha' happen? Re: wha' happen? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 2007 22:51:44 -0700 From: DanKegel Subject: Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Message-ID: <1178949104.769201.284650@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On May 8, 8:30 am, "news.hp.com" wrote: > Doc wrote: > > What would be a big help to the Hobbyist programme would be a minimal > > bootableLinuxCD to run sim-h and VMS. > > I wonder if Peronal Alpha would run underWINEunderLinux? I just tried it. The install runs fine, but the UI won't run without .NET installed, and I don't think that works well on Wine yet. The emulator itself seems to not require .NET, but it crashes. Time to file a bug at http://bugs.winehq.org, I'd say. Can one of you folks do the honors? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 20:08:36 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <871whn7ebf.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> jbigboote writes: > On May 9, 10:57 am, JF Mezei wrote: >> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ... >> Also, do not forget that Cerner has a deal where cerner customers can >> contiune to purchase Alpha systems for the foreseable future. > Too bad Cerner decided to drop VMS and replace it with HP-UX. If I'm > an existing Cerner client looking to port from VMS, and my choices > are AIX or HP-UX, why would I choose HP-UX? Maybe because I already > have Alpha servers, which can run HP-UX, but sooner or later you'll > have to move to Itanium, and then you'll have to port again, no? > And if I'm going to buy new hardware, I might as well go with IBM, > who for better or worse have done fairly well with AIX and the POWER > platform, and appear poised to continue doing so for the foreseeable > future. I administer both AIX and VMS systems, and I can say that in > the last 18 or so months getting support for VMS software and Alpha > hardware has become noticeably more irksome. And if you have P5s now, you can plug in P6 4.5Ghz CPUs in a few weeks to upgrade them. So where is the itanic that will outperform them? Or deliver twice the performance of the Alpha come to think of it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 22:06:38 +0300 From: "Guy Peleg" Subject: Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Message-ID: <4644b25f$0$16361$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message news:f21lb4$nh5$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de... > In article <00A67722.4C183113@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> In article <46441329$0$16385$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, "Guy Peleg" >> writes: >> > >> > >> >Yes I know....I was the one who broke it. >> > >> >The idea was to break the CLD to have customers come back and ask for >> >new >> >license. >> >This will allow tracking the number of active PAKGEN users. >> >> In the interim, there is nothing explaining this to "customers" and >> I have customers who in turn have customers that can't run software >> because of an inane attempt to track down who uses PAKGEN. > > Deliberately breaking a piece of software some people > depend on just to force their feedback is really sick You are probably right....just remember that PAKGEN is unsupported > and shows complete disrespect for the customers, IMHO. > I would have expected that from a company like M$, > but not from one which pretends to be in Enterprise computing business. > >> Maybe HP could break OpenVMS to see how many customers actively use >> it! :) >> > > Well, I think they have their estimate already. > Just remember one of the earlier posts on that guy > responsible for creating distribution CDs, > and that an error would mean recreating "thousands of CDs". I have no idea what's the real number is, it is probably much higher > One may assume this means <10000 CDs. How much is a complete VMS > distribution these days, 10 CDs per kit ? > This would mean less than 1000 customers left over. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:17:02 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > Emacs had that 25 years ago, there is a lisp package for most languages, > including our favourite. Moreover, I can open a file anywhere on the web > where I am authenicated. They day emacs can do what TPU does, I'll stop using TPU. I'm not holding my breath. (I'm a fairly powerfull emacs user). ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:19:09 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Fri, 11 May 2007 05:33:20 -0700, Bob Koehler > wrote: >> >> Where does one find these TPU-like keystroke commands? > You can customize Emacs to do that, you just need to learn Lisp. In > fact, there is even a vi mode! We were talking about the supposed capabilities of the (sub)standard full screen editor that traditionally shipped with UNIX. Not the useable raving madness of Stallman. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:19:40 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) IDE)) Message-ID: <4644fa05$0$90270$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Martin Krischik wrote: > Tom Linden schrieb: >> On Thu, 10 May 2007 17:01:19 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> Martin Krischik wrote: >>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm >>> >>> I know that one reader here will think one language is >>> missing ... >>> >> Lines of code in production is the real measure > > Not if you want to make a look into the future. "Stillstand ist > Rückschritt" as we say in Germany - "To stand still is to step back". > > So the real measure - at least if you are more interested in the future > then the past - would be "Delta Lines of code in production". Of course > you can't measure that. It is also hard to measure just lines of code in production. Arne ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:22:21 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris)) Message-ID: In article <464471e4@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik writes: > Bob Koehler schrieb: > > Now AFAIK TPU is a programming language - so you have me confused here. > Maybe you are looking for: TPU is a programming language for writing text editors and a basic editting engine on top of which that language runs. Any time you're using TPU you're using both. > > If you don't like that you can also use Perl, Python, Ruby, Scheme, or > Tcl - provided the language is installed on the System. Strange but > true: the only extra language I got working in Vim/VMS is Ruby ;-) . None of the above were designed to write text editors. It can be done, but why bother? I will look into the scripting language to see what it can do. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 18:19:54 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1178905797.291947.191190@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com: > On Apr 30, 7:54 am, Doc wrote: >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote >> innews:1177933256.937443.28610@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >> >> > funny, TCPware ssh2 works just fine ... configures in minutes ... >> >> And - yet again - you prove you're a clueless git Boob. >> >> TCPware only works because God wants it to. >> >> Or was it the fact that you're too dense to understand what the guy's >> problem with ssh is? He wants to use a key, not a password. >> >> Personally I suspect that any/all of the Process staff that lurk in >> this newsgroup wish you'd stop mentioning their products and being an >> embarrassing associate. >> >> Doc. > > and how about here Dic? try reading the security section comparision > if you can ... > > http://www.process.com/tcpip/tcpcompare.html I'm perfectly capable of reading, and you're a clueless retard who hides behind a fake email address and only gets away with being such an obnoxious prick in the newsgroup because nobody is vicious enough to call your employer and rat on how much of a whacked-out lunatic you represent yourself as here. What - exactly - are the consequences for you if you lose your job over your lunatic postings here? Have you even bothered to think about that? Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 11:28:31 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: <1178908111.626811.120920@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 11, 2:19 pm, Doc wrote: > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1178905797.291947.191190@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com: > > > > > > > On Apr 30, 7:54 am, Doc wrote: > >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote > >> innews:1177933256.937443.28610@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > >> > funny, TCPware ssh2 works just fine ... configures in minutes ... > > >> And - yet again - you prove you're a clueless git Boob. > > >> TCPware only works because God wants it to. > > >> Or was it the fact that you're too dense to understand what the guy's > >> problem with ssh is? He wants to use a key, not a password. > > >> Personally I suspect that any/all of the Process staff that lurk in > >> this newsgroup wish you'd stop mentioning their products and being an > >> embarrassing associate. > > >> Doc. > > > and how about here Dic? try reading the security section comparision > > if you can ... > > >http://www.process.com/tcpip/tcpcompare.html > > I'm perfectly capable of reading, and you're a clueless retard who hides > behind a fake email address and only gets away with being such an > obnoxious prick in the newsgroup because nobody is vicious enough to call > your employer and rat on how much of a whacked-out lunatic you represent > yourself as here. > > What - exactly - are the consequences for you if you lose your job over > your lunatic postings here? Have you even bothered to think about that? > > Doc.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - what I post on my own time is my business ... I do not post on company time and do not post anything representing them ... your threats amount to censorship ... you are a Christian bigot! have you ever thought that if you called, you may run into some other Christians here at HIGH levels that would think you were the lunatic? ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 11:34:01 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: <1178908441.587676.75120@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 11, 2:19 pm, Doc wrote: > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1178905797.291947.191190@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com: > > > > > > > On Apr 30, 7:54 am, Doc wrote: > >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote > >> innews:1177933256.937443.28610@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > >> > funny, TCPware ssh2 works just fine ... configures in minutes ... > > >> And - yet again - you prove you're a clueless git Boob. > > >> TCPware only works because God wants it to. > > >> Or was it the fact that you're too dense to understand what the guy's > >> problem with ssh is? He wants to use a key, not a password. > > >> Personally I suspect that any/all of the Process staff that lurk in > >> this newsgroup wish you'd stop mentioning their products and being an > >> embarrassing associate. > > >> Doc. > > > and how about here Dic? try reading the security section comparision > > if you can ... > > >http://www.process.com/tcpip/tcpcompare.html > > I'm perfectly capable of reading, and you're a clueless retard who hides > behind a fake email address and only gets away with being such an > obnoxious prick in the newsgroup because nobody is vicious enough to call > your employer and rat on how much of a whacked-out lunatic you represent > yourself as here. > > What - exactly - are the consequences for you if you lose your job over > your lunatic postings here? Have you even bothered to think about that? > > Doc.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - what if I emailed this reply to your employer, or better yet posted this all over the internet so future employers could see what a Christian hater and bigot you are? of course, I do not think McDonalds cares whether you are a bigot or not in order to flip burgers ... ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 20:47:14 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1178908441.587676.75120@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com: > On May 11, 2:19 pm, Doc wrote: >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote >> innews:1178905797.291947.191190@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com: > what if I emailed this reply to your employer, or better yet > posted this all over the internet so future employers could > see what a Christian hater and bigot you are? Here's the difference, you've made public who your employer is. You spent years representing yourself as bob@instantwhip whereas I've made only the most oblique of references to who I work for. My postings would never be mistakenly associated with my employer, thus what I post is not relevant to them. > of course, I do not think McDonalds cares whether you are > a bigot or not in order to flip burgers ... Oh, they care. And you just showed that you're not as good a Christian as you'd like to claim by making that accusation. No rapture for you! Bad Bob! By the way, McDonalds would likely have a fit if they had to pay my hourly rate. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 18:07:50 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: norm.raphael@metso.com wrote in news:OF0A3462DB.8FFAA17A- ON852572D8.00529D26-852572D8.0052D23D@metso.com: > No, no, no! The trash bin on wheels is a Dalek > ("Ex-ter-min-ate!, ex-ter-min-ate!) from the "Dr. Who" British TV series, > also available on DVD, and you're likely not to get that, either ;) . Of course the other Brian won't get Dr Who. American TV stations have zero taste. ;-) Doc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:08:34 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: "Doc" wrote in message news:Xns992DCCC961F24docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229... > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote in news:OF0A3462DB.8FFAA17A- > ON852572D8.00529D26-852572D8.0052D23D@metso.com: > > > >> No, no, no! The trash bin on wheels is a Dalek >> ("Ex-ter-min-ate!, ex-ter-min-ate!) from the "Dr. Who" British TV series, >> also available on DVD, and you're likely not to get that, either ;) . > > Of course the other Brian won't get Dr Who. American TV stations have > zero > taste. ;-) > Ah, Dr. Who. You must have been watching PBS last night. Several of the Doctors incarnations were pretty mediocre, some were brilliant. But I think I have seen most of them ** on American TV **. OK, so most of it was on PBS - but that is where most BBC programming has shown up historically. The current incarnation showed up on SciFi before it hit PBS. I'm quite a fan of British programming and comedy. My favorite being Black Adder, narrowly beating out Monty Python (but which I *do* have the entire collection on DVD). I am continually amazed at people like Hugh Laurie - he is one of the funniest guys in England - and is now playing an American doctor in a Drama (heck - even his book was pretty good). The hitchikers guide is and was a classic. Brilliant: The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin. Black Adder. Monty Python. A Bit of Hugh and Laurie. (and more) Blech: The Vicar of Dibbley. Keeping Up Appearances. (and more) Isn't this more fun than debating quantum metaphysics? ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 20:50:34 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: "FredK" wrote in news:f22ig6$1dm$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com: > Isn't this more fun than debating quantum metaphysics? The "quantum metaphysics" had me running for the hills and threatening to scoop my brains out with a blunt spoon. Amazing what a nutty Christian can provoke out of a bunch of people with a scientific bent. :-P It was interesting, I probably learned things I didn't want to. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:06:28 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: In article , norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > Wasn't "Blade Runner" based on a short story by Philip K. Dick, "Do > Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" > ..and TV has nothing to do with it AFAICS. > > [Grammar question: Does the question mark in the first sentence, above, > serve both the title and the sentence, itself?] > Standard American English punctuation rules put the question mark, period, or exclamation point before the quote even though it might not be part of the quoted text; or after a parentheses even though the an entire sentence might be within the parentheses. Which is why I sometimes follow what I understand are standard British English punctuation rules. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 21:07:00 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: <00A67777.40BBDA86@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "FredK" writes: > > > >"Doc" wrote in message >news:Xns992DCCC961F24docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229... >> norm.raphael@metso.com wrote in news:OF0A3462DB.8FFAA17A- >> ON852572D8.00529D26-852572D8.0052D23D@metso.com: >> >> >> >>> No, no, no! The trash bin on wheels is a Dalek >>> ("Ex-ter-min-ate!, ex-ter-min-ate!) from the "Dr. Who" British TV series, >>> also available on DVD, and you're likely not to get that, either ;) . >> >> Of course the other Brian won't get Dr Who. American TV stations have >> zero >> taste. ;-) >> > >Ah, Dr. Who. You must have been watching PBS last night. > >Several of the Doctors incarnations were pretty mediocre, some were >brilliant. But I think I have seen most of them ** on American TV **. OK, >so most of it was on PBS - but that is where most BBC programming has shown >up historically. The current incarnation showed up on SciFi before it hit >PBS. > >I'm quite a fan of British programming and comedy. My favorite being Black >Adder, narrowly beating out Monty Python (but which I *do* have the entire >collection on DVD). I am continually amazed at people like Hugh Laurie - he I too had the entire Monty Python catalogue... all movies and the enitre series. I never got the time to watch most of them; albeit, I had at one time or another seen all of them. Sadly, they all went to financing the horse without a hoof. :( -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:08:49 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: In article <00A67742.342AB9A6@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > I have a library of convert DVDs I still haven't watched. I think I'd > enjoy that more than any movie. I do, however, hope it is better than > the Star Wars thing which I still haven't seen to conclusion. I bought > it because the kids wanted it. I usually get as far as the first sight- > ing of the little beeping trash bin on wheels and then lose it. How is > it so popular? > So I take it you didn't notice the PDP-8 console in the entrance to Star Tours? (OK, it just reminded me of a PDP-8, it probably wasn't even meant to be a copy.) ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:10:39 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: In article , "FredK" writes: > > Or one I always wondered why it never made it to the movies - Shockwave > Rider (Brunner, 1975) - which actually coined the term computer "worm" and > pretty much imagined the internet (but believed that the phone company would > actually create it). Another I always thought would be made into a movie > was the Adolescence of P1 (1977, Tom Ryan). Or Arthur C Clarke's classic > Childhoods End (1953). Or anything by Heinlein after about 1960 (they were > fun, but Star Ship Troopers, 1959 might as well be E.E. Doc Smith). The best take on the phone company was in "The President's Analyst", which was only interesting itself the first time around. But then, how many kids today recognise "the" phone company? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:14:39 -0500 From: Wayne Sewell Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: <00A67778.5282A670.1@tachysoft.com> >From: "FredK" >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 >Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:27:09 -0400 >In the old days, I divided science fiction into "hard science fiction" & >"science fiction fantasy", and "social commentary using science fiction" & >"space opera". Star Wars is very much a horse-opera (western) in space. >Even the originals were never my favorites, and the prequils bore me to >tears. > >Think E.E. "Doc" Smith who wrote the Lensman novels (heck, which were >ancient when I read them in paperbacks when I was a kid) and who George >Lucas credits with influencing him as a kid. > >Phillip K. Dick was more a "social commentary using science fiction" kind of >writer on the "hard science fiction" side. Doc Smith was pretty much the inventor of space opera. Interesting that everybody is talking about the Lensman series, but no one has said a word about the earlier Skylark series. It's a little shorter, only 4 books to Lensman's 6. =============================================================================== Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting (281)812-0738 wayne@tachysoft.com http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html =============================================================================== Curly:"Hey, I'm no mule." Moe:"No, your ears are too short!" ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 18:36:51 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 Message-ID: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article > , > norm.raphael@metso.com writes: >> Wasn't "Blade Runner" based on a short story by Philip K. Dick, "Do >> Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" >> ..and TV has nothing to do with it AFAICS. >> [Grammar question: Does the question mark in the first sentence, above, >> serve both the title and the sentence, itself?] > Standard American English punctuation rules put the question mark, > period, or exclamation point before the quote even though it might > not be part of the quoted text; or after a parentheses even though > the an entire sentence might be within the parentheses. _Standard_ American punctuation rules put _periods_ inside the quote marks, regardless, but put question marks and exclamation points outside, unless they are part of the quoted material. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:21:02 -0500 From: Chris Scheers Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 May 22Ma Message-ID: <5aju0uF2oeiskU1@mid.individual.net> FredK wrote: > wrote in message > news:OF59586CA8.463C3AC7-ON852572D8.004E495E-852572D8.004E875D@metso.com... >> Wasn't "Blade Runner" based on a short story by Philip K. Dick, "Do >> Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" >> ..and TV has nothing to do with it AFAICS. >> > > It was a novel. My father belonged to the Doubleday Science Fiction > Bookclub when I was a kid (I get to blame reading science fiction on him). > It was first published by Doubleday in 1968. It was an expanded version of > the short story The Little Black Box (Worlds of Tomorrow, August 1964). I think Phillip K. Dick is underrated. Read whatever you can find of his. His stuff is full of ideas, but be warned, it is usually very dark. I find it surprising how much of his stuff has been made into movies. 25 years after his death, his stories are still being made into movies. > Good book. It was't say quite up to the level of Stand on Zanzibar (John > Brunner, also Doubleday 1968) which I read the same year. > > Or one I always wondered why it never made it to the movies - Shockwave > Rider (Brunner, 1975) - which actually coined the term computer "worm" and > pretty much imagined the internet (but believed that the phone company would > actually create it). Another I always thought would be made into a movie > was the Adolescence of P1 (1977, Tom Ryan). Or Arthur C Clarke's classic > Childhoods End (1953). Or anything by Heinlein after about 1960 (they were > fun, but Star Ship Troopers, 1959 might as well be E.E. Doc Smith). I enjoyed "The Adolescence of P1", but I thought it was a bit simplistic. I think a more likely movie candidate would be "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", because it is from Heinlein and the movie could have lots of explosions. Another strong candidate would be "When Harlie Was One". > I stopped reading science fiction when bookstores decided that they could > not differentiate between really bad "fantasy" and science fiction (and some > quite bad science fiction writers churned out junk)... of course except for > the only fantasy novels worth reading - Terry Pratchett's Disk World series I agree about many of the stores. Most of my science fiction books are at least 20 years old. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com Fax: 817-237-3074 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 15:34:47 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 May 22Ma Message-ID: <4644C557.9090805@comcast.net> FredK wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message > news:464489A7.7040100@comcast.net... > >>Blood is thicker than water: except in Ankh Morpork! ;-) >> > > > There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are > those who, when presented with a glass that is exactly half full, say: this > glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half > empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and > say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I > don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass! > > -- (Terry Pratchett, The Truth) > > "the little circle of candlelight loosely called "the universe of time and space" is adrift in something much more unpleasant and unpredictable. Strange Things circle and grunt outside the flimsy stockades of normality; there are weird hootings and howlings in the deep crevices at the edge of Time. There are things so horrible that even the dark is afraid of them." -- Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 15:51:41 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Movie Promo for HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua on Tuesday, May 22 May 22Ma Message-ID: <4644C94D.8050104@comcast.net> Chris Scheers wrote: > FredK wrote: > >> wrote in message >> news:OF59586CA8.463C3AC7-ON852572D8.004E495E-852572D8.004E875D@metso.com... >> >> >>> Wasn't "Blade Runner" based on a short story by Philip K. Dick, "Do >>> Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" >>> ..and TV has nothing to do with it AFAICS. >>> >> >> It was a novel. My father belonged to the Doubleday Science Fiction >> Bookclub when I was a kid (I get to blame reading science fiction on >> him). It was first published by Doubleday in 1968. It was an expanded >> version of the short story The Little Black Box (Worlds of Tomorrow, >> August 1964). > > > I think Phillip K. Dick is underrated. Read whatever you can find of > his. His stuff is full of ideas, but be warned, it is usually very dark. > > I find it surprising how much of his stuff has been made into movies. 25 > years after his death, his stories are still being made into movies. > > >> Good book. It was't say quite up to the level of Stand on Zanzibar >> (John Brunner, also Doubleday 1968) which I read the same year. >> >> Or one I always wondered why it never made it to the movies - >> Shockwave Rider (Brunner, 1975) - which actually coined the term >> computer "worm" and pretty much imagined the internet (but believed >> that the phone company would actually create it). Another I always >> thought would be made into a movie was the Adolescence of P1 (1977, >> Tom Ryan). Or Arthur C Clarke's classic Childhoods End (1953). Or >> anything by Heinlein after about 1960 (they were fun, but Star Ship >> Troopers, 1959 might as well be E.E. Doc Smith). > > > I enjoyed "The Adolescence of P1", but I thought it was a bit simplistic. > > I think a more likely movie candidate would be "The Moon is a Harsh > Mistress", because it is from Heinlein and the movie could have lots of > explosions. Who would you cast as "Mike"? ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 15:58:19 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: PID for detached process. Message-ID: In article , briggs@encompasserve.org writes: > > Why in the world would you want to use $DELPRC on a program that you > just ran $CREPRC on when the spec called for you to return the PID > as a DCL symbol and exit. As long as you're writing a program then formating an integer into a hex string instead of a decimal string before calling lib$set_symbol is a trivial difference, hardly extra work. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:02:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: PID for detached process. Message-ID: <5z+soup2bkdU@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <954nprWYD+G8@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > I prefer the old style, so something in mixed case (easier to read) > is going to be a comment (or literal string). I prefer mixed case for the whole thing. User interface studies show that standard English language capiltalization is easier to read than single case. We can all work with concepts of programing language statements mapping approximately to English language sentences and blocks to paragraphs. Certainly the language should not force the capitalization for me. Too bad so many "new" languages are implementing case sensitivity inherited from late-60's technology. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:04:38 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: Rob Brooks wrote: > I do not consider myself a rat, and I do take offence at the insinuation. Sorry, I did not wish to apply this to individuals. But from the outsider's point of view, when you see many well known senior VMS engineers leave in a steady pace, it is not a good sign, especially since there are no news of new ones replacing them. And in companies, those Wall-Street-Casino-Pleasing layoffs generally end up letting go the brightest and most valuable assets. What made VMS great isn't managers and accountants, it was the experienced VMS engineers like you and many others. ------ When someone isn't getting better at hospital, the family is often asked whether they really want to increase treatements as the condition deteriorates or whether to just leave the medication/O2 etc the same. At first, those questions hit you like a 2*4. But eventually, once you realise that despite all efforts, there is no real hope of the condition improving, you come to grips with the issue and realise that it is better for all, including the dying patient. VMS has been on life support for at least 10 years, first losing its "desktop to data centre", then losing its "versatile" and restricted to market niches, and now, the niches are going away one by one. The owner or VMS have only played lip service to quiesce the cries of the community while continuing their plan to slowly let VMS die on its own without even trying to give additional marketing to get it back in shape. In the end, HP deserves a dose of its own medecine. If the community were to help it achieve its goal, then HP would be really hurt by falling revenus from customers going to Sun, Dell, IBM. By fighting HP and remaining on VMS, HP is happy because it continues to get the revenus while trying to kill the product. A quick pullout by customers would hurt HP and those idiots like Stallard who think that they can retain customers by moving them to HP-UX will have some explaining to do to shareholders when revenus drop a few billion bucks. And yes, I would like nothing more than to HP agreeing to sell VMS to folks like Bruden, Process etc. This would give lots of hope. But as long as HP owns VMS, there is no hope for it. If the community were to accept that fact and help HP kill off VMS, then perhaps HP might see no real value in VMS and agree to sell it since it wouldn't think VMS could compete anymore. At which point Bruden could bring in the paddles and give VMS a big jolt to bring it back to life. As long as HP sees VMS as a potential competitor, they won't sell it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:48:06 -0400 From: "Ray" Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: > Sorry, I did not wish to apply this to individuals. But from the > outsider's point of view, when you see many well known senior VMS > engineers leave in a steady pace, it is not a good sign, especially > since there are no news of new ones replacing them. They are not leaving because they want to leave. This engineering group is the most committed group that I've ever had the privilege to work with. Many have left because they were laid off. Some are leaving because the threat of layoff continues to be present. (There's going to be yet another round this summer.) Some are leaving because taking the early retirement buyout is (very!) preferable to being laid off. No one will be replaced. How many people do you need if any future releases consist of new hardware support and bugfixes? > VMS has been on life support for at least 10 years, first losing its > "desktop to data centre", then losing its "versatile" and restricted to > market niches, and now, the niches are going away one by one. > > The owner or VMS have only played lip service to quiesce the cries of > the community while continuing their plan to slowly let VMS die on its > own without even trying to give additional marketing to get it back in > shape. > > In the end, HP deserves a dose of its own medecine. If the community > were to help it achieve its goal, then HP would be really hurt by > falling revenus from customers going to Sun, Dell, IBM. By fighting HP > and remaining on VMS, HP is happy because it continues to get the > revenus while trying to kill the product. A quick pullout by customers > would hurt HP and those idiots like Stallard who think that they can > retain customers by moving them to HP-UX will have some explaining to do > to shareholders when revenus drop a few billion bucks. Too late. A controlled descent is always preferable to a crash. Revenues have already gradually fallen to where HP will no longer get hurt. Look at all the additional revenue HP has managed to extract from VMS in following this strategy. As far as moving the VMS base to HP-UX, that IDC study was wildly optimistic (which is why management was so happy with it). When Unix salespeople from Digital were out trying to convince the VMS base to move to Unix, they were reasonably successful. Unfortunately, only 1 out of 6 VMS customers that went to a Unix stayed with Digital. HP will be lucky to achieve even this poor level of retention. > And yes, I would like nothing more than to HP agreeing to sell VMS to > folks like Bruden, Process etc. This would give lots of hope. But as > long as HP owns VMS, there is no hope for it. I agree, and you're right. Oh well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:19:24 -0400 From: "Ray" Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: > > When you consider that many VMS engineers are leaving one by one, (like > > rats leaving a sinking ship), and you consider the Cerner issue, perhaps > > VMS is now truly terminal ? > > I do not consider myself a rat, and I do take offence at the insinuation. He used the wrong simile. A correct nautical one would be "Like being forced to walk the plank". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 23:19:39 +0200 From: Martin Borgman Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: <4644ddeb$0$324$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> JF Mezei wrote: > Rob Brooks wrote: >> I do not consider myself a rat, and I do take offence at the insinuation. > > Sorry, I did not wish to apply this to individuals. But from the > outsider's point of view, when you see many well known senior VMS > engineers leave in a steady pace, it is not a good sign, especially > since there are no news of new ones replacing them. > > And in companies, those Wall-Street-Casino-Pleasing layoffs generally > end up letting go the brightest and most valuable assets. What made VMS > great isn't managers and accountants, it was the experienced VMS > engineers like you and many others. > > ------ > > > When someone isn't getting better at hospital, the family is often asked > whether they really want to increase treatements as the condition > deteriorates or whether to just leave the medication/O2 etc the same. At > first, those questions hit you like a 2*4. But eventually, once you > realise that despite all efforts, there is no real hope of the condition > improving, you come to grips with the issue and realise that it is > better for all, including the dying patient. > > VMS has been on life support for at least 10 years, first losing its > "desktop to data centre", then losing its "versatile" and restricted to > market niches, and now, the niches are going away one by one. > > The owner or VMS have only played lip service to quiesce the cries of > the community while continuing their plan to slowly let VMS die on its > own without even trying to give additional marketing to get it back in > shape. > > In the end, HP deserves a dose of its own medecine. If the community > were to help it achieve its goal, then HP would be really hurt by > falling revenus from customers going to Sun, Dell, IBM. By fighting HP > and remaining on VMS, HP is happy because it continues to get the > revenus while trying to kill the product. A quick pullout by customers > would hurt HP and those idiots like Stallard who think that they can > retain customers by moving them to HP-UX will have some explaining to do > to shareholders when revenus drop a few billion bucks. > > > And yes, I would like nothing more than to HP agreeing to sell VMS to > folks like Bruden, Process etc. This would give lots of hope. But as > long as HP owns VMS, there is no hope for it. > > If the community were to accept that fact and help HP kill off VMS, then > perhaps HP might see no real value in VMS and agree to sell it since it > wouldn't think VMS could compete anymore. At which point Bruden could > bring in the paddles and give VMS a big jolt to bring it back to life. > > As long as HP sees VMS as a potential competitor, they won't sell it. As usual, you do have a good point, but I would like to up the stakes How serious is HP about HP-UX these days? Hasn't HP-UX been dead in the water even longer than OpenVMS... And how serious is IBM about AIX? If SCO wasn't suing IBM for its Linux involvement, would AIX still be on the market today... And look at Sun. Sun started to open source Java and Solaris... Look at the OpenSolaris web site and see all the different OpenSolaris distributions starting to take shape. Didn't AT&T once state that the problems in UNIX were to deep to be fixed... And didn't the sell all their rights to UNIX and the UNIX name because they didn't believe in it... Hasn't Apple become the number one reseller of UNIX... And lets up the stakes even more. Who is making any real money on making pc's today... Isn't even the Windows market slowly dying... Apple is currently doing quite well in the music business and Microsoft is slowly killing SONY in the gaming industry. And some are saying Vista will be the last OS from Microsoft... How will our computers evolve from this point on if nobody is seriously making any money from making software for it? Is Linux or OpenSource in general the cause of this? Did OpenSource haven any impact at all? I know I'm a masochist in even trying to port OpenOffice.or to OpenVMS. And maybe I'm stupid in hoping that someone high enough in the ranks at HP still holds no ill feeling to OpenVMS. -- Martin Borgman, OpenOffice.org On OpenVMS porting group http://www.oooovms.dyndns.org ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 16:24:08 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: In article <8c678$4644a11d$cef8887a$13656@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > Is it really worth fighting against HP for the survival of VMS ? Quality softwatre is always worth fighting for, no matter how many battles are lost along the way. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 14:34:01 -0700 From: Ian Miller Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: <1178919241.578486.22730@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 11, 10:24 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > Quality softwatre is always worth fighting for, no matter how many > battles are lost along the way. Exactly. I do what I do because I have not lost hope and VMS is worth fighting for. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 23:38:44 +0200 From: Martin Borgman Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: <4644e264$0$330$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <8c678$4644a11d$cef8887a$13656@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: >> Is it really worth fighting against HP for the survival of VMS ? > > Quality softwatre is always worth fighting for, no matter how many > battles are lost along the way. > I totally agree, but the market is against us. Microsoft has shown us that quality is totally irrelevant. -- Martin Borgman, OpenOffice.org On OpenVMS porting group http://www.oooovms.dyndns.org ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 21:55:29 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: <5ak72hF2o2i5gU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1178919241.578486.22730@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller writes: > On May 11, 10:24 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> Quality softwatre is always worth fighting for, no matter how many >> battles are lost along the way. > > Exactly. I do what I do because I have not lost hope and VMS is worth > fighting for. "Winners never quit and quiters never win. But someone who never wins and never quits is an idiot." - From A True Inspirational Poster. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 22:29:34 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: <4645349E.FCE48126@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > [snip] > Is there really a point in fighting for VMS ? When I first read the subject, I rather expected Rev. Boob to pipe up about God only helping those who help themselves, and to be like God we should ... ...but I digress. Since HP won't help themselves, there is precious little for us to do but stand alongside those just finishing out their careers and do what we can here to support the installed base, so long as VMS has one. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 22:21:15 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: SYSMAN problem Message-ID: <464532AB.FAE80A07@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Indeed - VMS clusters do not depend on DECnet at all. > > The utility that used to work (MON CLUSTER) did rely on DECNET (although > it can now be set to rely on TCPIP). > > MAIL still relies on DECNET between nodes that do not share system disk > and without that logical that tells mail de deliver locally for cluster > nodes. > > And there are instances of SYSMAN using DECNET. True. However, these are management utilities. The cluster itself uses only a non-routable proprietary protocol (SCS). -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 01:38:16 +0000 (UTC) From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) Subject: wha' happen? Message-ID: I haven't seen any posts here for a while, OT or otherwise. Has the rapture occurred? :-) ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 2007 21:40:18 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: wha' happen? Message-ID: In article , hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes: > I haven't seen any posts here for a while, OT or otherwise. Has the rapture occurred? :-) $ From: "Tom Linden" $ Date: 11 May 2007 18:25:12 -0500 $ From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton), Encompasserve $ Date: 11 May 2007 20:38:16 -0500 Well, no posts for an interval of 2 hours 13 minutes and 4 seconds. Patience, please :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 22:31:00 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: wha' happen? Message-ID: <464534F4.A6B4C69D@spam.comcast.net> "Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote: > > I haven't seen any posts here for a while, OT or otherwise. Has the rapture occurred? :-) By the time one killfiles all the crap, there's very few valid posts left to come through! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.259 ************************