INFO-VAX Fri, 15 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 323 Contents: Re: 2007 HP Worldwide User Advocacy Support Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 RE: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Re: help running OpenVMS on Itanium 2 2620 WinXP variant Re: More TCPIP nonsense parsing SYSUAF.DAT (was Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4) Re: parsing SYSUAF.DAT (was Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4) Re: parsing SYSUAF.DAT (was Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4) Re: Question for the Group Re: Question for the Group Re: Question for the Group Re: RMS equiv of ACP fch$m_directory? Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Re: Why partitioned disks on VMS would be useful Re: ZFS and OS X 10.5 (Leopard) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:10:58 -0600 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: 2007 HP Worldwide User Advocacy Support Message-ID: <1181862739_5121@sp12lax.superfeed.net> David J Dachtera wrote: > The following was received (in two messages - combined here) via the VM= S SIG > Mailing List today. I saw no reason to not pass it on to c.o.v. >=20 >=20 > 2007 HP Worldwide User Advocacy Survey=20 >=20 > Local Voices=85Global Impact=20 >=20 > Encompass OpenVMS SIG members=97 >=20 > As fellow Encompass members, I want to issue a personal appeal for you = to > support Encompass by completing the 2007 HP Worldwide Customer Survey a= t > http://www.hpadvocacysurvey.org=20 >=20 > This program is a convenient and effective means of sharing your opinio= ns, > satisfaction and needs regarding HP=92s products and services directly = to HP. You > will be able to select OpenVMS as your preferred Operating System and a= nswer > questions specifically related to VMS. >=20 > From experience, I can attest that HP pays significant attention to the= results > of this survey. Last year, I represented Encompass and spent a half-day= day > reporting session with nearly 100 senior-level HP executives and > decision-makers. Several of the recommendations from previous surveys h= ave been > implemented to the collective benefit of all HP users. These changes in= clude: >=20 > 1) At HP Technology Forum 2006, Ann Livermore announced simplification = of sales > contracts, reducing length of terms and conditions by two-thirds. >=20 > 2) HP NonStop education is supporting an initiative to develop a "Cente= r for > Excellence for Business Critical Systems" at the University of South Fl= orida in > Tampa, FL that will include certificate programs for HP BCS technologie= s, > including NonStop. >=20 > 3) HP=92s NonStop division decided to invest in improvements of develop= ment tools, > including NonStop plugins for Eclipse that are scheduled for general > availability for June 2007. >=20 > It=92s especially important to Encompass that we have a strong particip= ation rate > by our members in this survey. HP entrusts the entire survey process to= > Encompass and other members of its international user group community, = giving > the survey an added dimension of credibility as a true customer-driven > initiative. Having a strong turnout by our members validates our streng= th and > influence to HP, so please complete the survey and indicate your affili= ation > with Encompass where asked. >=20 > Visit www.hpadvocacysurvey.org to complete the survey. Please respond b= y June > 28th. Thanks, in advance, for your participation. >=20 > Steve Davidek, Systems Administrator > City of Sparks, Nevada, Web Coordinator >=20 I attempted to take the survey, but HP is not interested in my input as I am not currently a business user. Jeff Campbell, 260773 ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:19:55 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <8e4f1$4671a2f2$cef8887a$17708@TEKSAVVY.COM> Robert Deininger wrote: >>>On my VS4000s I had to edit sys$system:modparams.dat >>>to add a MIN_INTSTKPAGES=12, otherwise it wouldn't run. >>>(this was nowhere described, it took me several hours to figure it out). > > Stuff like that was documented in release notes; you probably missed it. I missed it too. To me, it was documented on comp.os.vms . The point here is that AUTOGEN for VAX doesn't seem to have been updated in ages and left to its own will, will generate parameters that will cause a system crash when you boot it and start the TCPIP services. Of course, at this point in time, it is probably moot to even ask for that when the next major change to the "roadmap" will be a big focus on tools to port VMS applications to HP-UX and ability to run existing version of VMS as an instance (aka: application) over HP-UX's virtualisation capabilities. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 03:43:39 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: Michael Kraemer > >>[...] but I think VMS always requires 512-byte SCSI. > > > Many people seem to believe that VMS requires a CD-ROM drive which > has a 512-byte-block jumper, but I do not. VMS will attempt to put the drive into 512 byte block mode. VMS will generally attempt to put any SCSI disk into the correct settings for it's use. It turns out though that some DVD drives that claim to support going into 512 byte block mode actually do not, and will stay in the 2048 byte block mode. The support for 2048 byte block DVD drives is likely in IA64 for recent versions of VMS, and the code may also be in the Alpha. It also may be in ECO kits. As I have been out of that loop for a while, I do not know for sure. For a long time on my home MV-II, and VAX 4000-500, I used what was purchased as an external PCMCIA card connected CD-ROM. I seem to remember it being a Panasonic. It turned out that the PCMCIA card was just a generic SCSI card with an adapter to a standard smaller SCSI connector. At the time, getting it new with the PCMCIA card was a lot cheaper than getting a used SCSI CD-ROM drive. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:39:13 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Message-ID: <2988c$4671a779$cef8887a$19136@TEKSAVVY.COM> jrodriguezestevez@gmail.com wrote: > Hello, > > my name is Juan Miguel Rodriguez. I am the product manager for CDC > Software's technology stack. Let me address some clear innacuracies of > this post. Thank you for taking the time to state your company's policy. You did omit an important issue. During the time between 2008 and 2012 when the last VMS version will still be supported, will you test/qualify it for any new version of VMS, or will customers be stuck at whatever version of VMS will be current at the time the last Gembase version is released ? On the other hand, your message is quite clear: you have intil 2012 to find, from another vendor, a replacement for our product. Those who still haven't migrated may be given some extra support beyond the official end of support date until they have migrated. "Special deals" to extend support beyond the publically stated end-of-support dates are dangerous in that many things (change of some manager, merger/takeover etc) can cause the new folks to be unaware of those deals and simply not renew them with little notice. They are good to help slower people cross the bridge, but they cannot be used as a permanent solution. In terms of "continued support", there are many shops that will not accept "special treatment" because such special treatment can often be terminated with little warning when someone switches job and the new guy doesn't feel like continuing those special support packages. So once past that the end of the official support date, there are many who will not want to continue with your products. If you had stated that you would continue to support the last version of VMS, qualify it for any new VMS releases as long as there is demand for it , with a minimum of 5 years, then it may be more palatable. > > CDC Software announced during our user conference this year that IAF > (GEMBASE) 8.0 would be the last version shipped on the VMS platform. > This doesn't mean that we are dropping support of the platform, > but we won't be enhancing our software on the platform further. IAF > 8.0 is scheduled to be released on Q1-Q2 '08. Looking at the standard > support lifecycles for the IAF platform we expect that through regular > standard support we will be supporting 8.0 on VMS through 2011-2012, > depending on further release schedule. We have expressed and stated, > not only to Sylvain and his company, but to all participants in the > user conference that we will support any customer that wants to stay > on VMS as long as they want/need through specific support contracts. > We are not desupporting the platform, we are just not releasing new > versions of the software for it > >> So by 2011 at most that will be the end for us. > > This statement is inaccurate, as stated above. We had a discussion > with Sylvain and his company on the phone on June 5th, and we > explained to them that we will be more than happy to continue > supporting them on the platform > as long as they need. We will not be releasing new versions of the IAF > software on VMS, though. For this to happen the business on OpenVMS > would have to bloom over the next 12 months. > > Thank you, > > Juan Miguel Rodriguez | Product Manager for Technology, Enterprise > Solutions > CDC Software | T: +1 678-259-8565 | F: +1 770-351-0036 | www.cdcsoftware.com > > CDC Software | THE CUSTOMER-DRIVEN COMPANY™ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:34:04 -0000 From: jrodriguezestevez@gmail.com Subject: Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Message-ID: <1181846044.834732.57830@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Hello, my name is Juan Miguel Rodriguez. I am the product manager for CDC Software's technology stack. Let me address some clear innacuracies of this post. CDC Software announced during our user conference this year that IAF (GEMBASE) 8.0 would be the last version shipped on the VMS platform. This doesn't mean that we are dropping support of the platform, but we won't be enhancing our software on the platform further. IAF 8=2E0 is scheduled to be released on Q1-Q2 '08. Looking at the standard support lifecycles for the IAF platform we expect that through regular standard support we will be supporting 8.0 on VMS through 2011-2012, depending on further release schedule. We have expressed and stated, not only to Sylvain and his company, but to all participants in the user conference that we will support any customer that wants to stay on VMS as long as they want/need through specific support contracts. We are not desupporting the platform, we are just not releasing new versions of the software for it > So by 2011 at most that will be the end for us. This statement is inaccurate, as stated above. We had a discussion with Sylvain and his company on the phone on June 5th, and we explained to them that we will be more than happy to continue supporting them on the platform as long as they need. We will not be releasing new versions of the IAF software on VMS, though. For this to happen the business on OpenVMS would have to bloom over the next 12 months. Thank you, Juan Miguel Rodriguez | Product Manager for Technology, Enterprise Solutions CDC Software | T: +1 678-259-8565 | F: +1 770-351-0036 | www.cdcsoftware.com CDC Software | THE CUSTOMER-DRIVEN COMPANY=E2=84=A2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:46:19 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Message-ID: <1181864779.943962.195310@q19g2000prn.googlegroups.com> On Jun 14, 2:34 pm, jrodriguezeste...@gmail.com wrote: > > We will not be releasing new versions of the IAF > software on VMS, though. For this to happen the business on OpenVMS > would have to bloom over the next 12 months. it could and would happen if stupid NIH syndrome (not invented here) HP would promote and more importantly advertise vms, but Rich Marcello and Mark Gorham both stated to me that the higher ups at HP have placed vms in a niche market group and support of high end customers ... they refuse to advertise it and promote it to both small and medium markets evidently ... and they continue to try and shove their worthless garbage HP unix and itanium down our throats because even though OpenVMS and alpha are better, they did not invent it so they will not actively market it like they do HP garbage unix ... so instead of pitting vms againset unix and linux and owning the market, they let it just sit in the corner and collect dust ... how stupid is that? How wrong is that to cost shareholders money by losing millions of dollars in sales to other competitors because they refuse to promote it as superior to everything else out there ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:32:02 -0700 From: jrodriguezestevez@gmail.com Subject: Re: CDC software (formerly known as Ross Systems) to drop Gembase VMS support Message-ID: <1181881922.634680.173700@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Jun 14, 4:39 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > You did omit an important issue. During the time between 2008 and 2012 > when the last VMS version will still be supported, will you test/qualify > it for any new version of VMS, or will customers be stuck at whatever > version of VMS will be current at the time the last Gembase version is > released ? > We normally certify the current version with newer VMS versions that come along. > On the other hand, your message is quite clear: you have intil 2012 to > find, from another vendor, a replacement for our product. Those who > still haven't migrated may be given some extra support beyond the > official end of support date until they have migrated. Not quite. Our product exists as well on different unix flavors and Windows. We will be more than happy to move our customers to another platform, and many customers have done so over the years. As an anecdote our ERP is also available on VMS ia64 as well, we made the port 2-3 years ago. Since then only a VMS Alpha customer has moved to VMS ia64 and we haven't had a single new sale on this platform. In fact we haven't had a single new sale on VMS for almost 9 years, period. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:59:50 -0700 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Message-ID: <1181843990.960856.172390@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Jun 14, 6:07 pm, Chuck Aaron wrote: > It appears that the encryption built into vms 8.3 does not > encrypt pdf files. Is there software that will work on a VMS > and do this? > > Thanks. > What do you mean does not work? Have you tried zipping the pdf to preserve the file attributes then encrypting it? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:02:14 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Message-ID: <467182A6.1040805@comcast.net> Koska, John C. (LNG-ALB) wrote: > I thought Encryption for OpenVMS is built into OpenVMS 8.3 at no extra > license purchase cost. Is that correct? > > :) jck > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net] >>Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:00 AM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 >> >>Chuck Aaron wrote: >> >>>Group, >>> >>>Is there VMS software that will encrypt pdf files, and your >>>recommendations please? Please DO NOT TOP POST! I can't answer your question because I have never run VMS V8.anything! I'm stuck at V7.2-1 for lack of access to anything more recent. Someone is sending me a recent version but it isn't here yet. I'd be a little surprised to learn that HP is giving away anything they used to charge $5000 for. I could be wrong. . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:14:36 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Message-ID: <07061413143666_202003EE@antinode.org> From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > I can't answer your question because I have never run VMS V8.anything! > I'm stuck at V7.2-1 for lack of access to anything more recent. Someone > is sending me a recent version but it isn't here yet. Don't you know about the secret FTP server, or can't you write a CD? > I'd be a little surprised to learn that HP is giving away anything they > used to charge $5000 for. Have a Web browser? Read much lately? > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/83FINAL/6679/6679pro_002.html#enceas > I could be wrong. . . . Duh, you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:21:58 -0400 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Message-ID: <000901c7aeb0$e4f29a10$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:02 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 > > Koska, John C. (LNG-ALB) wrote: > > I thought Encryption for OpenVMS is built into OpenVMS 8.3 > at no extra > > license purchase cost. Is that correct? > > > > :) jck > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net] > >>Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:00 AM > >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >>Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 > >> > >>Chuck Aaron wrote: > >> > >>>Group, > >>> > >>>Is there VMS software that will encrypt pdf files, and your > >>>recommendations please? > > Please DO NOT TOP POST! > > I can't answer your question because I have never run VMS > V8.anything! > I'm stuck at V7.2-1 for lack of access to anything more > recent. Someone is sending me a recent version but it isn't here yet. > > I'd be a little surprised to learn that HP is giving away > anything they used to charge $5000 for. I could be wrong. . . . > I got the impression the OP is trying to use Adobe Acrobat's built-in document encryption feature. It allows the document to be encrypted using X.509 public and private keys so that only the author and/or designated recipients can read it. Obviously simply encrypting a file is pretty easy - the former is not. Does Acrobat even run on VMS? Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:51:10 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Message-ID: <46718E1E.3010907@comcast.net> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > >>I can't answer your question because I have never run VMS V8.anything! >>I'm stuck at V7.2-1 for lack of access to anything more recent. Someone >>is sending me a recent version but it isn't here yet. > > > Don't you know about the secret FTP server, or can't you write a CD? > It's a secret isn't it? > >>I'd be a little surprised to learn that HP is giving away anything they >>used to charge $5000 for. > > > Have a Web browser? Read much lately? > > >>http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/83FINAL/6679/6679pro_002.html#enceas > > >> I could be wrong. . . . > > > Duh, you think? What's your point. Should I have told the OP to google for it? Googled for it myself? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:01:01 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Encrypting a pdf file on vms 8.3 Message-ID: In article <000901c7aeb0$e4f29a10$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" wrote: > > I got the impression the OP is trying to use Adobe Acrobat's built-in > document encryption feature. It allows the document to be encrypted using X.509 public > and private keys so that only the author and/or designated recipients can > read it. Obviously simply encrypting a file is pretty easy - the former is not. > Does Acrobat even run on VMS? > I wondered if that was the OP's goal too. The Sanface folks may be of help here. Ah yes, here we go: http://www.sanface.com/pdfcrypt.html "What is pdfcrypt? pdfcrypt is a very flexible and powerful program. pdfcrypt allows you to encrypt a PDF (40 bits and 128 bits), set permissions, add user and owner password. For example you can encrypt a pdf without to allow to print it. The button to print the file will be disabled in Acrobat Reader application. For example you can encrypt a pdf allowing the user to read it only if he know the correct password It's simple to use it like a batch application to set permissions to every PDF in your archive. It's simple to use it like a pipe application. It's simple to use it inside your cgis. We distribute only executable versions (if you need ask us the original PERL code, we'll evaluate your request)." -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 03:58:40 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: help running OpenVMS on Itanium 2 2620 WinXP variant Message-ID: David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > Well, before we do anything the orange light is flashing > Apparently, from the downloaded docs it means "the system needs attention" > We sat with it all night and tried to comfort it but the light is still on > > Any suggestions as to how we can give it the attention it needs to turn off > that bloody flashing orange light? The orange light means there are entries in the Management Processor's system event log. You can clear it by using the MP's "SL" (System Log) command and the "C"lear it. cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:25:20 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: More TCPIP nonsense Message-ID: > > I'll have to ask in the morning. Any progress with this? "Ron Johnson" wrote in message news:akIbi.562005$2Q1.510512@newsfe16.lga... > On 06/12/07 20:15, Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi, > > > >> When our SysAdmin tried to disable the RSH service about a half hour > >> ago, the box *instantly* crashed. > > > > Ok, crashing boxes is embarassing :-( > > > > When support identify the problem could you please provide the details here? > > > > Of course it might be as simple as Fred Kleinproblem sitting on the fix as, > > after all, 8.2 is a lightly used system and in the grand scheme of things, > > what does it really matter? Maybe support are just dishing out the fixes on > > a need-to-know basis. > > > > You don't have a log of the commands do you? Or a bugcheck footprint? Was it > > the "disable service" or "set noservice"? Bizarre! > > I'll have to ask in the morning. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:33:09 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: parsing SYSUAF.DAT (was Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4) Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > > Anyway... SYSUAF.DAT is simply an indexed file. Correct. > Standard VMS languages > can read it, and CONVERT can make a text copy that Perl or Python can > convert to a properly formatted /etc/passwd file. Your definition of "Standard VMS languages" needs expansion. As long as you're going to slice and dice and write out a file using Perl, you might as well start with it and root through SYSUAF.DAT with it. As you say, it's just an indexed file, and the VMS:IndexedFile extension is darn handy for these sorts of jobs. The example below just does a lookup by username and prints the UIC. The magic is all in tying index zero of the SYSUAF to a hash so that any lookup in the %sysuaf1 hash is actually a lookup by username in the file. I have an only slightly more complicated script that tells me the next available UIC in a group when passed a username. Of course there are lots of other ways to do this, but I thought I would relieve you of the misapprehension that you have to convert indexed files before you can do anything with them in Perl. $ perl showuic.pl default Found user by name: [0200,0200] DEFAULT $ type showuic.pl use VMS::IndexedFile; tie(%sysuaf1,VMS::IndexedFile,"sysuaf",0) or tie(%sysuaf1,VMS::IndexedFile,'sys$system:sysuaf.dat',0) or die "Can't open SYSUAF file: $!\n"; $username = uc($ARGV[0]); $uafrec = $sysuaf1{$username}; ($userid1,$uid1,$gid1) = unpack("x4a12x20SS", $uafrec); printf ("Found user by name: " . "[%04.4o,%04.4o] %s\n", $gid1,$uid1,$userid1); untie(%sysuaf1); ------ N.B. Reverse engineering where the fields are and what the indexes are in SYSUAF.DAT makes you depend on something that could of course change in future versions of VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:42:37 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: parsing SYSUAF.DAT (was Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4) Message-ID: >> Standard VMS languages >> can read it, and CONVERT can make a text copy that Perl or Python can >> convert to a properly formatted /etc/passwd file. However, the password field remains problematic because it is one-way encrypted. So if you wish to transpose SYSUAF.DAT to another platform, you would need to ensure that the other platform has the same one-way encryption algorithm so that the encrypted password field can be used on the other platform. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:59:19 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: parsing SYSUAF.DAT (was Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4) Message-ID: <4671f268$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: >>> Standard VMS languages can read it, and CONVERT can make a text copy >>> that Perl or Python can convert to a properly formatted /etc/passwd >>> file. > > However, the password field remains problematic because it is one-way > encrypted. > > So if you wish to transpose SYSUAF.DAT to another platform, you would > need to ensure that the other platform has the same one-way encryption > algorithm so that the encrypted password field can be used on the other > platform. The practical approach is to move the usernames and set the passwords to something random and inform people about their new password. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:32:05 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Question for the Group Message-ID: <1181845925.505826.198030@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Jun 13, 8:43 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/13/07 18:50, Tad Winters wrote: > > > > > JF Mezei wrote in > >news:9418c$46703ed1$cef8887a$32591@TEKSAVVY.COM: > > >> back in the days where MACs still had about 12% share, Apple was the > >> largest maker of personal computers. (the wintel market may have had > >> close to 90%, but because it was so fragmented, there were no single > >> vendor with more than 10% market share). > > >> And even if Apple only has 5%, it is still profitable, and more > >> importantly, Apple has managed to put OS-X on the radar and it is > >> being followed by the press with good press covereage. > > > In the early 90's, I kept wishing that DEC would partner with Apple and > > make it the chosen desktop face. In fact, a shared venture to build a VMS > > workstation with some Apple applications would have been a real bringing > > together of the simpleness executives like and the power desired by the > > scientist crowd. > > Great minds must think alike! When I was working for my fist "VMS > company", I got a Mac and thought that the two "we're #2, we try > harder" companies should (although that wasn't the the exact thought > I had back then) "synergize" for the same reason you specified. > Well, they were "engaged" for a while. I wonder who got to keep the engagement ring?;-) The rumo(u)rs were strong back then (late 80's, early 90's) when they formed an alliance that they would merge or that DEC would buy Apple. They never got to the alter, though. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:55:21 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Question for the Group Message-ID: In article <5dcv5kF33ir71U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >>> Bob Koehler schrieb: >>> >>>>> >>>>>This story is as old as 1988. >>>>>BTW, a possible reason why VMS wasn't affected might by >>>>>they didn't have TCP back then. Sometimes it seems to be >>>>>an advantage to be behind. >>>> >>>> >>>> We certainly did have IP back then. >>> >>> I think UCX came later, 1989 ? >> >> Probably, but I hardly think that stopped us from having a better IP >> stack earlier. And we were no where near alone. >> >>> >>> If it's particularly easy to obtain such passwords, >>> it is an inherent weakness of that platform. >>> But I assume they have fixed that by now. >> >> Long since fixed. But at the same time MS-DOS didn't implement >> passwords and the installation passowrds of some UNIX might have >> been as easy to obtain. > >I have never seen any version of Unix with an "installation passowrd". >Every version I have ever installed prompted for a root pasword at some >point in the install procedure. Actually, I don't remember any version >of Unix I have ever used that had default passwords for any account. > Unfortunately even today there are lots of applications which come with default passwords or no passwords at all - remember the SQLSpida worm which attacked Microsoft SQLServer systems through the default null password of the sa account. Also there are tons of network devices with well known default passwords. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:34:33 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Question for the Group Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >In article <5dcv5kF33ir71U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >>>> Bob Koehler schrieb: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>This story is as old as 1988. >>>>>>BTW, a possible reason why VMS wasn't affected might by >>>>>>they didn't have TCP back then. Sometimes it seems to be >>>>>>an advantage to be behind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We certainly did have IP back then. >>>> >>>> I think UCX came later, 1989 ? >>> >>> Probably, but I hardly think that stopped us from having a better IP >>> stack earlier. And we were no where near alone. >>> >>>> >>>> If it's particularly easy to obtain such passwords, >>>> it is an inherent weakness of that platform. >>>> But I assume they have fixed that by now. >>> >>> Long since fixed. But at the same time MS-DOS didn't implement >>> passwords and the installation passowrds of some UNIX might have >>> been as easy to obtain. >> >>I have never seen any version of Unix with an "installation passowrd". >>Every version I have ever installed prompted for a root pasword at some >>point in the install procedure. Actually, I don't remember any version >>of Unix I have ever used that had default passwords for any account. >> >Unfortunately even today there are lots of applications which come with default >passwords or no passwords at all - remember the SQLSpida worm which attacked >Microsoft SQLServer systems through the default null password of the sa >account. Also there are tons of network devices with well known default >passwords. > As to Unix systems having default passwords I managed to find this about SGI IRIX from 1993 http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletins/e-02.shtml David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >>bill >> >>-- >>Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >>bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >>University of Scranton | >>Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:07:11 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: RMS equiv of ACP fch$m_directory? Message-ID: Hi Mark, Steve, > XABITM with XAB$_UCHAR_DIRECTORY can read this attribute. Works like a charm; thanks a lot. Cheers Richard Maher "Mark Daniel" wrote in message news:136vdm8hc710uc9@corp.supernews.com... > Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Does anyone know if there is a RMS (fab, nam, xab) bit somewhere that > > corresponds to the $QIO ACP file characteristic FCH$M_DIRECTORY? > > > > I can fully appreciate a possible "Yeah, it's called a file-type and it'll > > have '.DIR' in it." response, but before going down that path, I'd just like > > to check if RMS surfaced the directory characteristic somewhere else after > > an $open. > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_2858.html > > itm.xab$b_bln = XAB$C_ITMLEN; /* no template available ?! */ > itm.xab$b_cod = XAB$C_ITM; > itm.xab$l_itemlist = (char *) &uchar_items; > itm.xab$b_mode = XAB$K_SENSEMODE; > > http://wasd.vsm.com.au/conan/sys$common/syslib/sys$starlet_c.tlb?key=XABITMDEF > > #define XAB$_UCHAR_DIRECTORY 139 /* (sense) FCH$V_DIRECTORY */ > > -- > Chrono-synclastic infundibulum ... those places ... > where all the different kinds of truths fit together. > [Kurt Vonnegut; The Sirens of Titan] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:25:58 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: <8b58e$467206cb$cef8887a$2914@TEKSAVVY.COM> I know it is currently not supported. But just wondering if it would be architecturally possible to have a single system disk support multiple architectures ? instead of the VMS$COMMON.DIR, one would have VMS$COMMON_VAX.DIR, VMS$COMMON_ALPHA.DIR, VMS$COMMON_ITANIC.DIR and VMS$COMMON_8086.DIR Then, [SYS0] might have its SYSCOMMON.DIR point to VMS$COMMON_ALPHA.DIR and [SYS1] might have its SYSCOMMON.DIR point to VMS$COMMON_ITANIC.DIR etc etc. Obviously, cluster_config.co would need to be changed, but don't most other procedures and applications use the SYSCOMMON.DIR reference inside their own root to look at the common stuff ? What this ever considered ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 04:48:05 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >But just wondering if it would be architecturally possible to have a >single system disk support multiple architectures ? ... >What this ever considered ? I wrote earlier today that I did just that, for VAX and Alpha. It was a hack just to prove it could be done. The disk was a DSSI disk and its DSSI bus was connected to both a VAX and an Alpha. Did my post prompt this question? Itanic system disks appear as having partitions to the boot firmware, and these disks are incomprehensible by VAX. They are understood by Alphas running recent versions of VMS, but not the Alpha boot firmware. Even if it did, I'm not sure you could overlay the partition stuff and the Alpha boot info in block 0, so it can't go further than my hack. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:35:38 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <4671ecdb$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <466a1e4c$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?windows-1252?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >> You are probably thinking about WANK (Worms Against Nuclear Killers) >> and the rather relaxed attitude to DECnet accounts before 5.something. > > Although I remember WANK, I'm thinking of swome thngs earlier and > more serious. I thought that was the worst ever to hit VMS. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:03:47 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <4671f373$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> So, if you have your Help desk and junior level 1 staff supporting many >> different platforms, would you not want them to have a point and click >> environment vs giving them DCL or shell prompt access with elevated >> priv's to do the things they need to do on all the platforms they >> support? > > No. I would want them to learn what they need to know and use the > OS' features to make sure they can do it without elevated > privileges. Having a support staff that can't be trusted with DCL > is like having an electrician who can't be trusted to run wire. I agree as long as we talk "IT professionals". (sommer job students in a help desk are somewhat different) Arne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:05:37 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <4671f3e2$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In the meantime, I find Digital Standard Runoff and Latex meet most > of my word processing needs, except for the few places where I'm > required to produce Word format document files. > > WYSIWYG tools from MS burn up too much of my time making random > formating changes on thier own. Latex has been popular in academics for decades. But I would not consider it suitable as a word processing solution for let us call it "the big masses". Arne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:18:27 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Latex has been popular in academics for decades. and WANK has been popular with men of all types for centuries/millenia. Also, there are plenty of people outside of academia who are into Latex as well. :-) :-) :-) (sorry, couldn't resist). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:04:21 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: <46718325.1020808@comcast.net> VAXman- wrote: > When I use sftp to transfer from my Powerbook or my Linux box to VMS, I > cannot get the session to terminate when I am done. I will type 'exit' > at the sftp> prompt and the VMS session hangs. This doesn't happen if I > sftp between the Powerbook and linux machines. > > I find myself entering a CTRL-Z and then doind a 'ps' to find the sftp > process and I then 'kill' it off. Is there some magical incantation to > get the TCPIP Services sftp to terminate the connection? > > Did you try "bye"? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:45:05 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: In article <00A691FE.22B769DC@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > When I use sftp to transfer from my Powerbook or my Linux box to VMS, I > cannot get the session to terminate when I am done. I will type 'exit' > at the sftp> prompt and the VMS session hangs. This doesn't happen if I > sftp between the Powerbook and linux machines. You are transferring files TO VMS, but are you SFTP'ing to VMS or from VMS, i.e. using put from elsewhere or GET from VMS? > I find myself entering a CTRL-Z and then doind a 'ps' to find the sftp > process and I then 'kill' it off. Is there some magical incantation to > get the TCPIP Services sftp to terminate the connection? With SSH (not SFTP) from VMS, after typing exit, I don't get back to the prompt, but a RETURN gets me there. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:18:54 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: <00A69228.2A93700F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <46718325.1020808@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >VAXman- wrote: >> When I use sftp to transfer from my Powerbook or my Linux box to VMS, I >> cannot get the session to terminate when I am done. I will type 'exit' >> at the sftp> prompt and the VMS session hangs. This doesn't happen if I >> sftp between the Powerbook and linux machines. >> >> I find myself entering a CTRL-Z and then doind a 'ps' to find the sftp >> process and I then 'kill' it off. Is there some magical incantation to >> get the TCPIP Services sftp to terminate the connection? >> >> > >Did you try "bye"? Bye = exit = quit. [~/Desktop] % ls *.GIF QUISPs.GIF [~/Desktop] % sftp system@192.168.2.2 system@192.168.2.2's password: wouldn't.you.like.to.know sftp> put QUISPs.GIF Uploading QUISPs.GIF to /sys$sysroot/sysmgr/QUISPs.GIF QUISPs.GIF 100% 20KB 19.6KB/s 00:00 sftp> exit (here I hang) ^Z Suspended [~/Desktop] % ps PID TT STAT TIME COMMAND 654 p4 S+ 0:00.04 -tcsh 765 p7 Ss 0:00.05 -tcsh 771 p7 S 0:00.01 sftp system@192.168.2.2 772 p7 S 0:00.11 /usr/bin/ssh -oForwardX11 no -oForwardAgent... [~/Desktop] % kill -9 771 This is NOT an issue with any other unixy based sftp. I wanted to try MultiNet's sftp response by sftp'ing to my account up on Eisner (DECUServe) but that terminate as soon as I enter the password. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:21:04 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: <00A69228.77D91802@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > >In article <00A691FE.22B769DC@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- >@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >> When I use sftp to transfer from my Powerbook or my Linux box to VMS, I >> cannot get the session to terminate when I am done. I will type 'exit' >> at the sftp> prompt and the VMS session hangs. This doesn't happen if I >> sftp between the Powerbook and linux machines. > >You are transferring files TO VMS, but are you SFTP'ing to VMS or from >VMS, i.e. using put from elsewhere or GET from VMS? > >> I find myself entering a CTRL-Z and then doind a 'ps' to find the sftp >> process and I then 'kill' it off. Is there some magical incantation to >> get the TCPIP Services sftp to terminate the connection? > >With SSH (not SFTP) from VMS, after typing exit, I don't get back to the >prompt, but a RETURN gets me there. Phillip, see my reply to Richard B. Gilbert's reply. There's an example that I pasted into that reply. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:00:25 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: In article <00A69228.77D91802@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > Phillip, see my reply to Richard B. Gilbert's reply. There's an example > that I pasted into that reply. Right, saw that (which appeared on my server after my question). I've just recently started using SSH and SFTP, but always in the other direction (i.e. initiating the connection on VMS, and PUTting stuff elsewhere, though the latter doesn't seem to be important). I'll see if I see the same effect. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 07:09:40 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: In article <00A69228.2A93700F@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <46718325.1020808@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" > writes: > > > > > >VAXman- wrote: > >> When I use sftp to transfer from my Powerbook or my Linux box to VMS, I > >> cannot get the session to terminate when I am done. I will type 'exit' > >> at the sftp> prompt and the VMS session hangs. This doesn't happen if I > >> sftp between the Powerbook and linux machines. > >> > >> I find myself entering a CTRL-Z and then doind a 'ps' to find the sftp > >> process and I then 'kill' it off. Is there some magical incantation to > >> get the TCPIP Services sftp to terminate the connection? > >> > >> > > > >Did you try "bye"? > > Bye = exit = quit. > > [~/Desktop] % ls *.GIF > QUISPs.GIF > [~/Desktop] % sftp system@192.168.2.2 > > system@192.168.2.2's password: wouldn't.you.like.to.know > sftp> put QUISPs.GIF > Uploading QUISPs.GIF to /sys$sysroot/sysmgr/QUISPs.GIF > QUISPs.GIF > 100% 20KB 19.6KB/s 00:00 > sftp> exit > > (here I hang) > and here I don't hang: $ tcpip show ver HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.6 on a Digital Personal WorkStation running OpenVMS V8.3 with all ECOs up to 9-JUN-2007 applied. On the OS X side, version 10.4.9, with Software Update done last week. > ^Z > Suspended > [~/Desktop] % ps > PID TT STAT TIME COMMAND > 654 p4 S+ 0:00.04 -tcsh > 765 p7 Ss 0:00.05 -tcsh > 771 p7 S 0:00.01 sftp system@192.168.2.2 > 772 p7 S 0:00.11 /usr/bin/ssh -oForwardX11 no -oForwardAgent... > [~/Desktop] % kill -9 771 > > This is NOT an issue with any other unixy based sftp. > I haven't tried any others, but while I'm here, I may as well pass on a couple of observations about sftp behaviour: o - 'bye' at the sftp prompt works on the Mac. On VMS it gives Unrecognized command line: 'bye' o - when doing an 'ls' from the Mac, there is a distinct delay before anything is printed. It is obviously sorting the output first. Note the case and version ordering below: ... end of listing during 'sftp system@my-alpha' WELCOME.TEMPLATE;1 WELCOME.TXT;1 X.COM;11 cdrecord_nocontig.com;1 cdrecord_nocontig.com;2 net$dns_clerk_startup.ncl;1 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;1 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;10 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;11 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;2 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;3 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;4 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;5 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;6 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;7 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;8 net$dns_clerk_stop.ncl;9 nfs_client_mount.com;1 o - when doing an interactive sftp to the Mac from VMS, during an 'ls' the listing pauses after a screenful with In contrast, doing an ls from the Mac to VMS simply zaps out the full listing. o - sftp to VMS running on an ssh port other than 22: sftp -oPort=22022 system@my-alpha The last one is included because I couldn't find it in the help on the Mac side, and had to Google for the solution. > I wanted to try MultiNet's sftp response by sftp'ing to my account up on > Eisner (DECUServe) but that terminate as soon as I enter the password. There's a problem on Eisner. I'll post something there. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:47:56 GMT From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Message-ID: "Chuck Aaron" wrote in message news:f4rq8l$a96$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... > Group, > > Is there software or a way to convert VMS 8.3's sysuaf.dat and > rightslist.dat > files onto a windows server running the same application using RHL AS4 so > these two files can be sync'd up and utilized? > > Thanks in Advance. You might want to ask the question slightly differently, and hope for a slightly better approach than statically copying stuff from UAF and RIGHTSLIST. For example, one possible question (depending on what problem you're trying to solve) might be "can VMS use RedHat-compatible industry standard authentication mechanisms (Kerberos etc) to provide a single sign on across a mixed-OS environment"... The answer afaik is yes (but I don't have the exact details to hand and anyway it may or may not be helpful here depending on your particular needs). hth john ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 2007 19:56:57 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Message-ID: <5ddks9F32utemU1@mid.individual.net> Because VMS is pretty much out of the department this is more of an academic than practical question, but can VMS use Radius for user authentication? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 02:16:46 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Message-ID: <1181873806.443982.194440@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 14, 12:27 pm, Chuck Aaron wrote: > Group, > > Is there software or a way to convert VMS 8.3's sysuaf.dat and > rightslist.dat files onto a windows server running the same application using RHL AS4 so these two files can be sync'd up and utilized? What do you mean with synced up? There are several tools to exctract data readily. The preferred method is of course to use SYS$GETUAI and not to directly read SYSUAF. I made such tool, producing a CSV file, available as: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware60/rms_tools/bonus/getuai.c It does read SYSUAF... to get the usernames to feed to GETUAI. hth, Hein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:44:36 -0700 From: aaa.vms@gmail.com Subject: Re: vms 8.3 to Red Hat Linux AS4 Message-ID: <1181886276.142767.295800@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On 14 , 23:56, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > BecauseVMSis pretty much out of the department this is more > of an academic than practical question, but canVMSuseRadius > for user authentication? RADIUS/LGI callouts: http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru/~laishev/aaa-vms/lgi*.* RADIUS Server: http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru/~laishev/aaa-vms/kit/radiusvms31.zip > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 2007 21:10:29 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Message-ID: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Rich Alderson > writes: >> You are correct, even though someone incorrectly said otherwise. I'll >> explain below. > Look below, you goofed. >> Yes, in so far as that goes, but it does not address the main point. >> The Unix-related family of operating systems use a single hierarchical >> filesystem, as did (soon again to be does) Multics. There is a single >> system root directory, under which all other directories are found; other >> filesystems may exist on subsidiary disks or partitions of disks, but they >> are attached to directories located within the root hierarchy. > Tying multiple fileystems into a single directory hierachry does not > invalidate systems which have multiple hierachies from being > hierarchical. Not the point I was addressing. To most non-VMS/non-Tops-20 people, speaking of a hierarchical filesystem implies a single system-wise filesystem root, a la Multics. In that sense, neither VMS nor Tops-20 have a heirarchical filesystem. In the sense that each individual filesystem on VMS and Tops-20 is heirarchical within its own confines, _res ipsa loquitur_. >> VMS started out with a non-hierarchical filesystem (now called ODS-1) which >> was identical to that of RSX-11{A,B,C,D,M,S} and similar to those of Tops-10 >> and TSS/8 (Tops-10 inspired), and IIRC those of the 18-bit family. (Tops-10 >> added "SubFile Directories" eventually, so some hierarchicality, but this >> was not very cleanly done. IMAO.) > No. VMS 1.x in first ship supported ODS-2 with hiearchical > directories. ODS-1 was, and still is, supported on the VAX version > to assist in porting RSX-11M applications. Early versions of VMS > relied somewhat on RSX and took advantage of ODS-2 layouts that > resembled ODS-1, but they were on ODS-2 disks. I sit corrected. I've used only a bit of VMS, starting in 1989 when I was on DECUSnotes, and misunderstood part of the very early history of VMS I knew from earlier in my career. >> At some point in its history, IIRC v4, VMS adopted a hierarchical model for >> its filesystems, on a per-filesystem basis, similar though not identical to >> the model of TENEX and Tops-20: There is a root directory for each >> filesystem, but mounting a filesystem does not require that it be associated >> in any way with a directory on a central filesystem. > Not "at some point in its history". First ship was that way. But your > right at TOPS-20 not getting it done very well. Sorry? I don't recall making any statement that could be construed as making any such claim. Please quote what you think means that, and I'll be happy to point out where you misunderstood. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:42:12 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: >koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> In article , Rich Alderson >> writes: > >>> You are correct, even though someone incorrectly said otherwise. I'll >>> explain below. > >> Look below, you goofed. > >>> Yes, in so far as that goes, but it does not address the main point. > >>> The Unix-related family of operating systems use a single hierarchical >>> filesystem, as did (soon again to be does) Multics. There is a single >>> system root directory, under which all other directories are found; other >>> filesystems may exist on subsidiary disks or partitions of disks, but they >>> are attached to directories located within the root hierarchy. > >> Tying multiple fileystems into a single directory hierachry does not >> invalidate systems which have multiple hierachies from being >> hierarchical. > >Not the point I was addressing. > >To most non-VMS/non-Tops-20 people, speaking of a hierarchical filesystem >implies a single system-wise filesystem root, a la Multics. > I think there are vastly more users of Windows than Unix/Linux systems and their hierarchical file system does not have a single system-wise filesystem root instead having device roots (ie similar to VMS). David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >In that sense, neither VMS nor Tops-20 have a heirarchical filesystem. > >In the sense that each individual filesystem on VMS and Tops-20 is heirarchical >within its own confines, _res ipsa loquitur_. > >>> VMS started out with a non-hierarchical filesystem (now called ODS-1) which >>> was identical to that of RSX-11{A,B,C,D,M,S} and similar to those of Tops-10 >>> and TSS/8 (Tops-10 inspired), and IIRC those of the 18-bit family. (Tops-10 >>> added "SubFile Directories" eventually, so some hierarchicality, but this >>> was not very cleanly done. IMAO.) > >> No. VMS 1.x in first ship supported ODS-2 with hiearchical >> directories. ODS-1 was, and still is, supported on the VAX version >> to assist in porting RSX-11M applications. Early versions of VMS >> relied somewhat on RSX and took advantage of ODS-2 layouts that >> resembled ODS-1, but they were on ODS-2 disks. > >I sit corrected. I've used only a bit of VMS, starting in 1989 when I was on >DECUSnotes, and misunderstood part of the very early history of VMS I knew from >earlier in my career. > >>> At some point in its history, IIRC v4, VMS adopted a hierarchical model for >>> its filesystems, on a per-filesystem basis, similar though not identical to >>> the model of TENEX and Tops-20: There is a root directory for each >>> filesystem, but mounting a filesystem does not require that it be associated >>> in any way with a directory on a central filesystem. > >> Not "at some point in its history". First ship was that way. But your >> right at TOPS-20 not getting it done very well. > >Sorry? I don't recall making any statement that could be construed as making >any such claim. Please quote what you think means that, and I'll be happy to >point out where you misunderstood. > >-- >Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | >news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | >"You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | > --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:43:18 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Message-ID: <5degahF33pkkcU1@mid.individual.net> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Ken Fairfield wrote: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> [...] >> At my previous, previous employment, we had 2 Alpha 4100's on one >> system disk, and 3 VAX 6000-class machines on another (of course) >> system disk, all on the CI. But we also had 30 VAXstations (3100's >> and 4000 VLC's) _also_ booting from the VAX system disk. In other >> words, there were 33 or so system roots on the VAX system disk. > > How did it perform? How long did it take to boot? How long to boot? It depends on when you asked me. Let's leave the satellite nodes out of the picture for the moment... When I arrived, we had two 6640's and an 8700 on the CI. Storage was *old*. ISTR two pair of HSC50's and most of the disks were RA82's plus some RA90's. (A bit later, the 8700 was replaced by a 6420, but that machine didn't do much anyway...) One 6640 was the development machine, the other the production. It took 45-50 minutes from cold boot to having the control system (the application) completely up and running on the production machine (probably somewhat less on the development machine). My first big project was to analyze the startup procedures and see what I could do to speed things up. Just by splitting the startup into two pieces, one of which was submitted to batch very early, I reduced the elapsed time down to about 18 minutes. (That was a real win, by the way, since the operations people were much more willing to allow reboots that took 20 minutes rather than the better part of an hour. :-) When we brought in the 4100's, we also added a StorageWorks cab with HSJ50's, and I moved the VAX system disk onto the new storage. Boy did *that* make a big difference! Over time, we added another StorageWorks/HSJ50 cab and retired all the old HSC50 and RA disks. The control system moved to one of the 4100's, and elasped time from boot to control system up was (still) between 10 and 15 minutes. The other thing I did was use controller-based mirror-sets instead of HBVS. That certainly made the disk mounts go far faster. Nevertheless, if I had the choice, if I'd had both StorageWorks cabs at the beginning, I would use HBVS between the two cabs. As for performance, we were not I/O bound, more CPU limited, so I never saw a problem with system disk loads. The Alphas were so much faster than the VAXes, the I/O changes were probably in the noise. Although there was a noticeable improvement for VAX boot time on the newer storage, there was much else noticed on the VAXes. The VAXstations were limited by the 10Mb ethernet connections to the cluster. The stuff I did with the local disks helped that a great deal, but we would never have noticed the incremental load put on the system disk, even with the 30 satellites we had. They acted primarily as X-terminals, after all, not as local computing resources, for the developers. While edit-compile-link cycles _could_ be done locally, it was much more common to simply have have a bunch DECterms opened on the various "CI nodes" where the edit-compile-link would complete much faster, and where debug needed to be done anyway. [...] > While, in principle, it may be possible to run several dozen machines > off the same system disk, it does not seem very practical. As I said before, it depends on whether your cluster is heavy on I/O to the system disk or not. Even if your primary application is I/O heavy, e.g., to a database, most such applications and databases are installed off the system disk, so that doesn't enter. I think paging to the system disk would be the largest single performance impact, and those are usually moved off the system disk in large clusters. Similarly, there can be certain "hot" files, like SYSUAF and RIGHTSLIST, etc., which again are good candidates for moving off the system disk. -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:03:15 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: Why partitioned disks on VMS would be useful Message-ID: <5dedvfF354er1U1@mid.individual.net> P. Sture wrote: > In article , > JF Mezei wrote: > >> AEF wrote: >>> But half of your shadowing benefits are nullified. Normally in a 2- >>> member shadow set, you can lose either member and you're still up. But >>> here, if you lose the member with the unshadowed pagefile on it, >>> you're down anyway! >> >> True, but during normal times, you get the performance benefits of >> having local reads instead of having all your system disk MSCP served >> from some other node. > > A decade or so ago, a former colleague spent a considerable amount of > time setting up what he called a "Partial Local System Disk" on a large > fleet of VAXstations. > > Simply put, he placed as many system and application objects as possible > onto each workstation's local disks, using search lists as appropriate. > This decreased the network bandwidth required to the extent of improved > response times for a trading application. > > But this was in the days of 10Mb/s networks. It's likely not worth that > amount effort nowadays - think identifying what needs to be updated > every time a new version of VMS, layered software, or patches comes > along. I did exactly the same thing when I was at SLAC...although I never gave it a name... :-) There were at least two issues that needed to be addressed. First, I needed a (semi-)automatic way to boot these satellites *without* adding the local disk to SYS$SYSROOT, for instance, when doing a VMS upgrade. I managed that with a test of the VMS version string in SATELLITE_PAGE.COM, along with hard-coding whatever version the local disk's images corresponded to. If the versions didn't match, the local disk was left out of SYS$SYSROOT. Second, I needed a not-too-manual method to copy key files from the system disk to the satellites' local disks. That was just a smallish bit of DCL that could be copied around and executed from SYSMAN. However, the biggest problem was booting all 30-or-so VAXstations after an upgrade. Even pacing them in groups of 4 at a time, separated by 5-10 minbutes, it turned out that "OPCOM storms" were my biggest problem. :-( Once I got the correct OPC* logicals figured out, that problem pretty much went away. :-) These days, with 100Mb ethernet, I probably wouldn't bother with all the trouble... -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:04:53 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: ZFS and OS X 10.5 (Leopard) Message-ID: In article <1181824442.283512.191780@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Andrew wrote: > On 13 Jun, 07:19, "P. Sture" wrote: > > > > > > Yep. I've just watched the Sun video showing that Jonathan Schwartz > > (Sun's CEO) announced that ZFS would be _the_ file system on Leopard. > > > > He was out of order there. It's highly unlikely that a brand new file > > system would be anything but an optional extra at this stage. > > > > For a more up to date report on the state of ZFS within Leaopard, see > > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/12/sun_apple_zfs_denial/ > > > > but we'll have to wait to see what actually ships. > > > > Let's not forget what happened to Spiralog :-) > > > > PS, and more on topic for this news group, Schwartz did have a positive > > message about the penetration of OpenOffice in schools and universities. > > > > -- > > Paul Sture > > Apple have confirmed that ZFS will be in OS-X but that it will not be > the default filesystem. > Thanks Andrew. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.323 ************************