INFO-VAX Sat, 23 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 339 Contents: 1 pixel GIF (was: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option) Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com a Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com a RE: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac RE: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac RE: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: Application transparent file encryption (supported)? Re: Application transparent file encryption (supported)? Blast from the past... Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: I can view it! Was: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: Mac OS Re: NFS Startup error ? Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option RE: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Organised letter writing to Hurd ? Re: Organised letter writing to Hurd ? Re: reading news [was: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1)] Re: reading news [was: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:31:27 -0500 From: Chris Scheers Subject: 1 pixel GIF (was: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option) Message-ID: <5e34egF36hcvcU1@mid.individual.net> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <7b3ef$467b4ead$cef8887a$13922@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > >> The minute you stop protesting any use of non-standard technology, or >> terroible HTML coding (such as HP's use of 1 pixel GIF files instead of >> specifying that colour in the html itself), then it means that those who >> vroke the standards got away with it. > > What did that buy them anyway? More wasted space and a higher server load > to serve that 1pixel GIF. I just created a 1 pixel GIF. It totalled 35 > bytes. color:#RRGGBB; is 14 bytes. That is less than half the size and > it doesn't require an additional fetch from the server (assuming it isn't > in a linked style sheet). If the 1 pixel GIF is configured not to cache, it buys them a notification whenever someone views the page, even if the HTML for the page itself has been cached. What they do with this information is a whole 'nother discussion. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com Fax: 817-237-3074 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:02:12 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com a Message-ID: <188fc$467c38ec$cef8887a$24560@TEKSAVVY.COM> AEF wrote: > Besides, you been claiming VMS faced imminent death for years as Rob > Young has pointed out months (years?) ago. What's different this time? I have not claimed VMS faces imminent death. But what is clear is that VMS is slowly being poisoned and eventually, HP will just put it out of its misery. You need to look at it from HP's point of view. They have no intentions of growing VMS. Their only intentions are to move as many VMS customers to their selected platform as possible. If they sell VMS to Bruden or Process (or a joint venture of both), then HP will lose a greater percentage of customers to those companies who will also sell support than if HP lies to customers with fake roadmaps and fully intends to convert them to HP-UX. Messges such as Livermore's are intended to get ISVs to rething their commitment to VMS. When an ISV like Cerner announces it is dropping VMS support, the stain goes on Cerner and not HP so people aren't so mad at HP. It is our role as VMS loyalist to ensure that HP doesn't get away with this tactic by pointing out that in the case of Cerner, surely there has been a deal by HP to urge Cerner to move to HP-UX. It was certaintly not customer requests that pushed that. So if the blame for the loss of Cerner lais flat on HP's face in the public eye, then HP will learn that it cannot do this anymore. And we need to convince HP that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH GROWING VMS. If HP sells VMS to Bruden/Process, at least customers will not yhold a grudge against HP and may continue to buy HP's coloured water in expensive small containers. If HP continues to act to quicken VMS's demise, then customers will revold against HP and HP will stand to lose sales of other products. WE MUST MAKE IT CLEAR TO HURD THAT VMS CUSTOMERS WILL NOT BE HP CUSTOMERS UNLESS HP PROMOTES VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:46:20 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com a Message-ID: <2dbc5$467c97a2$cef8887a$30218@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: > Well, as you stated, it sounds like this Cust has issues with HP that > extend well beyond OpenVMS. VMS customers did not choose to be HP customers. They were forced into it. And HP has yet to do anything to truly make us feel comfortable within HP. It wouldn't take much, but HP refuses to do it. > Certainly not something HP wants (no vendor wants unhappy Cust's), and I > would hope the account team is working to correct whatever the issue is. What percentage of the "intalled base" have an HP contact ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:06:16 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > Sent: June 21, 2007 4:51 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on > Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) >=20 [snip...] >=20 > Few companies are investing in new VMS systems, its all maintenance > and > migration away from VMS, except for the few sites where Rdb and/or VMS > is so > entrenched that the cost and risk of moving outweighs all other > factors. Shhh.. please don't tell Cust's with mission critical environments like the following: http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm "Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical systems on Windows-based computers for many years, a customer experienced a virus in one of these systems that shut down production for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed, restored and tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at no small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established standard, Vsystem on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for the next system to be replaced." "Mission-critical applications require rock-solid 365/24 operation. The costs of any down-time far out-weigh any initial savings of using Windows-based computer systems let alone the additional costs of on-going security upgrades and other security costs are considered." Won't happen overnight, but there are a few things to consider .. - about every 5-10 years the industry shifts from distributed to centralized computing strategies. OpenVMS's real strengths are in centralized computing. Right now, there is a massive push to re-centralize servers and solutions. From a centralized perspective, ask your new company how they plan to do app stacking or manage all of their batch jobs so that you do not care what system the job runs on. - Companies are getting tired of the 5-20 security patches released each and every month for Windows and Linux. They are staring to realize that perhaps they can not afford these platforms. >=20 > VMS's merits are irrelevant. > The perception is there and has been since the Palmer days, and things > have > been going downhill ever since. >=20 > Btw. After 6 months with SQLServer2000 I can tell you that is is one > of the > worst pieces of junk I have used for a long time. I am not convinced > the > coming upgrade will improve things very much. Oh, it has lots of cool > programming bobs and knobs, but the engine is crud. But I digress. >=20 > I actually have the option of moving to VMS/Rdb (or AIX/DB2 or Oracle > or > whatever) if that is the right choice. Technically it probably is > given our > requirements, but I cannot bring myself to make a VMS recommendation > because > the ecosystem for VMS and Rdb no longer exists and my faith in HPs > stewardship is zero - no, less than zero in fact. And the handfull of > guys > in Rdb engineering while doing a great job, are at the mercy of the > VMS > ecosystem. >=20 > Thera are no professional Ops people around and fewer application > developers > and zero new entrants in either. The VMS owners have not spent a dime > on > development tools for VMS for such a long time that no "modern" > developer > takes VMS seriously, and therefore there is no interest. It is a > career > dead end and this is never going to change. Sad, but true. >=20 > Beyond the entrenched clients, there is nothing but boring "keep it > afloat" > and/or "figure out how we can trash this old fashioned crap" projects. > Hardly something to cause me to go to work with any enthusiasm. >=20 Actually, it is more like existing OpenVMS old timers who have not kept up with recent developments like NetBeans for OpenVMS, Distributed NetBeans, Availability Manager for OpenVMS (GUI mgmt), Java etc ..=20 Reference: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html=20 "NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for Java and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), it was open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result of its versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of use. Key features are:=20 - Support for the Java, C/C++, XML, and HTML=20 - Support for JSP, XML, RMI, CORBA, JINI, JDBC, and servlet technologies - Support for Ant, CVS, and other version control systems=20 - Pluggable support for compilers, debuggers and execution services=20 - GUI form designer and other visual design tools=20 - Wizards for code generation and management tools=20 - Syntax-highlighting source editor=20 The goal of the NetBeans "community"-based development philosophy is to maximize extensibility with the most generic and flexible framework possible so that new tools can be added to a solid, stable, efficient, and backward-compatible foundation.=20 Because the NetBeans tools platform is developed as an open-source project, it has the potential to be the basis for other development tools no matter what language or technology is being used. To this end, NetBeans features open APIs to permit extensibility - for example, version control support and Javadoc search and generation." http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html "Distributed NetBeans for OpenVMS allows you to run the NetBeans IDE on your desktop system and develop applications on a remote OpenVMS Alpha or Integrity server system." > If I can figure out how to view that video, I might get the board of > directors to view it - so that they will know just how inferior the > technology upon which their business relies actually is. >=20 Simple way to get their attention - If they test their important app's before rolling out security patches (like any self respecting enterprise would do), ask them if they can afford Windows/Linux. > Cheers > Dr. Dweeb. >=20 Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:51:21 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <1182559881.513895.285020@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jun 22, 6:06 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:s...@dweeb.net] > > Sent: June 21, 2007 4:51 PM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on > > Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) > > [snip...] > > > > Few companies are investing in new VMS systems, its all maintenance > > and > > migration away from VMS, except for the few sites where Rdb and/or VMS > > is so > > entrenched that the cost and risk of moving outweighs all other > > factors. > > Shhh.. please don't tell Cust's with mission critical environments like > the following:http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm Good news. I haven't looked, but is this on the HP *corporate* "Success Stories" page? The one from the "servers" link? [snip] > > Beyond the entrenched clients, there is nothing but boring "keep it > > afloat" > > and/or "figure out how we can trash this old fashioned crap" projects. > > Hardly something to cause me to go to work with any enthusiasm. > > Actually, it is more like existing OpenVMS old timers who have not kept > up with recent developments like NetBeans for OpenVMS, Distributed > NetBeans, Availability Manager for OpenVMS (GUI mgmt), Java etc .. > I can't speak for all of the old-timers, but this old-timer thinks OpenVMS is still the best OS in its class. What I feel is frustration and disappointment because I know it could have become *the* "desk-top to data-center" standard and had a chance to do so before M$ borged. Okay, I'm over that now. But if VMS was a student, I'm sure "doesn't work up to its potential" would have been on more than one report card. Unfortunately, the VMS owners decided to only compete in the data- center niche, and its edge there is rapidly being closed by advancements in the "standard" platforms. "Recent developments" and chip road-maps point to an x86 instruction set world. It's the applications, st***d. Always has been; always will. Hard to consolidate on a platform that doesn't run all the app's. Like it or not, M$ Windows is the 800 pound gorilla now, and he isnt't going with Itanium. Is it too late for VMS? Only HP can answer that question and their answers aren't very reassuring. I know there are some very good and enthusiastic HP'ers whose job it is to do VMS and I only hope rather than lose that enthusiasm, they'll try harder to move it up through the ranks. If top management is in a "show me" stage with VMS, then I hope someone showed them that video and they see/read/hear about the testimonials. Or do most people think top management is omniscient? Wrong! Top management is mostly *insulated*. Too often in large companies the levels below the top add a bit too much color to the filters in both directions. I can imagine some PHB's watching the fail-over video and saying: "We have to get HP-UX, Windows and Linux up faster. Work on it!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 02:57:50 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <467c7012$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] >> Sent: June 21, 2007 4:51 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on >> Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) >> > > [snip...] > > >> >> Few companies are investing in new VMS systems, its all maintenance >> and >> migration away from VMS, except for the few sites where Rdb and/or >> VMS is so >> entrenched that the cost and risk of moving outweighs all other >> factors. > > Shhh.. please don't tell Cust's with mission critical environments > like the following: Kerry, I just left one. A multi-billion doillar p.a. houshhold name. They are expending a VERY large amount of money to migrate away from HP (VMS/Rdb). Anything but HP at any cost (and I mean *any* cost). They have absolutely sound reasons for doing so, none of which have to do with VMS quality or functionality. Dweeb > http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm > "Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical > systems on Windows-based computers for many years, a customer > experienced a virus in one of these systems that shut down production > for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed, restored and > tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at > no small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established > standard, Vsystem on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for > the next system to be replaced." > > "Mission-critical applications require rock-solid 365/24 operation. > The costs of any down-time far out-weigh any initial savings of using > Windows-based computer systems let alone the additional costs of > on-going security upgrades and other security costs are considered." > > > Won't happen overnight, but there are a few things to consider .. > > - about every 5-10 years the industry shifts from distributed to > centralized computing strategies. OpenVMS's real strengths are in > centralized computing. Right now, there is a massive push to > re-centralize servers and solutions. From a centralized perspective, > ask your new company how they plan to do app stacking or manage all > of their batch jobs so that you do not care what system the job runs > on. > > - Companies are getting tired of the 5-20 security patches released > each and every month for Windows and Linux. They are staring to > realize that perhaps they can not afford these platforms. > >> >> VMS's merits are irrelevant. >> The perception is there and has been since the Palmer days, and >> things have >> been going downhill ever since. >> >> Btw. After 6 months with SQLServer2000 I can tell you that is is one >> of the >> worst pieces of junk I have used for a long time. I am not convinced >> the >> coming upgrade will improve things very much. Oh, it has lots of >> cool programming bobs and knobs, but the engine is crud. But I >> digress. >> >> I actually have the option of moving to VMS/Rdb (or AIX/DB2 or Oracle >> or >> whatever) if that is the right choice. Technically it probably is >> given our >> requirements, but I cannot bring myself to make a VMS recommendation >> because >> the ecosystem for VMS and Rdb no longer exists and my faith in HPs >> stewardship is zero - no, less than zero in fact. And the handfull of >> guys >> in Rdb engineering while doing a great job, are at the mercy of the >> VMS >> ecosystem. >> >> Thera are no professional Ops people around and fewer application >> developers >> and zero new entrants in either. The VMS owners have not spent a >> dime on >> development tools for VMS for such a long time that no "modern" >> developer >> takes VMS seriously, and therefore there is no interest. It is a >> career >> dead end and this is never going to change. Sad, but true. >> >> Beyond the entrenched clients, there is nothing but boring "keep it >> afloat" >> and/or "figure out how we can trash this old fashioned crap" >> projects. Hardly something to cause me to go to work with any >> enthusiasm. >> > > Actually, it is more like existing OpenVMS old timers who have not > kept up with recent developments like NetBeans for OpenVMS, > Distributed NetBeans, Availability Manager for OpenVMS (GUI mgmt), > Java etc .. > > Reference: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html > "NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for > Java and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), > it was open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result > of its versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of > use. Key features are: > - Support for the Java, C/C++, XML, and HTML > - Support for JSP, XML, RMI, CORBA, JINI, JDBC, and servlet > technologies > > - Support for Ant, CVS, and other version control systems > - Pluggable support for compilers, debuggers and execution services > - GUI form designer and other visual design tools > - Wizards for code generation and management tools > - Syntax-highlighting source editor > > The goal of the NetBeans "community"-based development philosophy is > to maximize extensibility with the most generic and flexible framework > possible so that new tools can be added to a solid, stable, efficient, > and backward-compatible foundation. > > Because the NetBeans tools platform is developed as an open-source > project, it has the potential to be the basis for other development > tools no matter what language or technology is being used. To this > end, NetBeans features open APIs to permit extensibility - for > example, version control support and Javadoc search and generation." > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html > "Distributed NetBeans for OpenVMS allows you to run the NetBeans IDE > on your desktop system and develop applications on a remote OpenVMS > Alpha or Integrity server system." > >> If I can figure out how to view that video, I might get the board of >> directors to view it - so that they will know just how inferior the >> technology upon which their business relies actually is. >> > > Simple way to get their attention - If they test their important app's > before rolling out security patches (like any self respecting > enterprise would do), ask them if they can afford Windows/Linux. > >> Cheers >> Dr. Dweeb. >> > > Regards > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:02:40 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <467c7134$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] >> Sent: June 21, 2007 4:51 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on >> Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) >> > > [snip...] > > >> >> Few companies are investing in new VMS systems, its all maintenance >> and >> migration away from VMS, except for the few sites where Rdb and/or >> VMS is so >> entrenched that the cost and risk of moving outweighs all other >> factors. > > Shhh.. please don't tell Cust's with mission critical environments > like the following: > http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm > "Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical > systems on Windows-based computers for many years, a customer > experienced a virus in one of these systems that shut down production > for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed, restored and > tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at > no small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established > standard, Vsystem on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for > the next system to be replaced." > > "Mission-critical applications require rock-solid 365/24 operation. > The costs of any down-time far out-weigh any initial savings of using > Windows-based computer systems let alone the additional costs of > on-going security upgrades and other security costs are considered." > > > Won't happen overnight, but there are a few things to consider .. > > - about every 5-10 years the industry shifts from distributed to > centralized computing strategies. OpenVMS's real strengths are in > centralized computing. Right now, there is a massive push to > re-centralize servers and solutions. From a centralized perspective, > ask your new company how they plan to do app stacking or manage all > of their batch jobs so that you do not care what system the job runs > on. > > - Companies are getting tired of the 5-20 security patches released > each and every month for Windows and Linux. They are staring to > realize that perhaps they can not afford these platforms. > >> >> VMS's merits are irrelevant. >> The perception is there and has been since the Palmer days, and >> things have >> been going downhill ever since. >> >> Btw. After 6 months with SQLServer2000 I can tell you that is is one >> of the >> worst pieces of junk I have used for a long time. I am not convinced >> the >> coming upgrade will improve things very much. Oh, it has lots of >> cool programming bobs and knobs, but the engine is crud. But I >> digress. >> >> I actually have the option of moving to VMS/Rdb (or AIX/DB2 or Oracle >> or >> whatever) if that is the right choice. Technically it probably is >> given our >> requirements, but I cannot bring myself to make a VMS recommendation >> because >> the ecosystem for VMS and Rdb no longer exists and my faith in HPs >> stewardship is zero - no, less than zero in fact. And the handfull of >> guys >> in Rdb engineering while doing a great job, are at the mercy of the >> VMS >> ecosystem. >> >> Thera are no professional Ops people around and fewer application >> developers >> and zero new entrants in either. The VMS owners have not spent a >> dime on >> development tools for VMS for such a long time that no "modern" >> developer >> takes VMS seriously, and therefore there is no interest. It is a >> career >> dead end and this is never going to change. Sad, but true. >> >> Beyond the entrenched clients, there is nothing but boring "keep it >> afloat" >> and/or "figure out how we can trash this old fashioned crap" >> projects. Hardly something to cause me to go to work with any >> enthusiasm. >> > > Actually, it is more like existing OpenVMS old timers who have not > kept up with recent developments like NetBeans for OpenVMS, > Distributed NetBeans, Availability Manager for OpenVMS (GUI mgmt), > Java etc .. > > Reference: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html > "NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for > Java and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), > it was open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result > of its versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of > use. Key features are: > - Support for the Java, C/C++, XML, and HTML > - Support for JSP, XML, RMI, CORBA, JINI, JDBC, and servlet > technologies > > - Support for Ant, CVS, and other version control systems > - Pluggable support for compilers, debuggers and execution services > - GUI form designer and other visual design tools > - Wizards for code generation and management tools > - Syntax-highlighting source editor > > The goal of the NetBeans "community"-based development philosophy is > to maximize extensibility with the most generic and flexible framework > possible so that new tools can be added to a solid, stable, efficient, > and backward-compatible foundation. > > Because the NetBeans tools platform is developed as an open-source > project, it has the potential to be the basis for other development > tools no matter what language or technology is being used. To this > end, NetBeans features open APIs to permit extensibility - for > example, version control support and Javadoc search and generation." > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html > "Distributed NetBeans for OpenVMS allows you to run the NetBeans IDE > on your desktop system and develop applications on a remote OpenVMS > Alpha or Integrity server system." > "The VMS owners have not spent a dime on development tools for VMS for such a long time that no "modern" developer takes VMS seriously, and therefore there is no interest. It is a career" I see nothing to contradict my statement (quoted for effect). >> If I can figure out how to view that video, I might get the board of >> directors to view it - so that they will know just how inferior the >> technology upon which their business relies actually is. >> > > Simple way to get their attention - If they test their important app's > before rolling out security patches (like any self respecting > enterprise would do), ask them if they can afford Windows/Linux. > You need to read my previous posts on this matter. I am the last one to disagree with you here!!!!! I will refer you in the event that you missed my commentary. Dweeb. >> Cheers >> Dr. Dweeb. >> > > Regards > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:32:44 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > Sent: June 22, 2007 8:58 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on > Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > >> Sent: June 21, 2007 4:51 PM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles > on > >> Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) > >> > > > > [snip...] > > > > > >> > >> Few companies are investing in new VMS systems, its all maintenance > >> and > >> migration away from VMS, except for the few sites where Rdb and/or > >> VMS is so > >> entrenched that the cost and risk of moving outweighs all other > >> factors. > > > > Shhh.. please don't tell Cust's with mission critical environments > > like the following: >=20 > Kerry, I just left one. >=20 > A multi-billion doillar p.a. houshhold name. They are expending a > VERY > large amount of money to migrate away from HP (VMS/Rdb). Anything but > HP at > any cost (and I mean *any* cost). They have absolutely sound reasons > for > doing so, none of which have to do with VMS quality or functionality. >=20 > Dweeb >=20 Well, as you stated, it sounds like this Cust has issues with HP that extend well beyond OpenVMS. Certainly not something HP wants (no vendor wants unhappy Cust's), and I would hope the account team is working to correct whatever the issue is. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:51:26 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > Sent: June 22, 2007 9:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on > Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) >=20 [snip...] >=20 > "The VMS owners have not spent a dime on development tools for VMS for > such > a long time that no "modern" developer takes VMS seriously, and > therefore > there is no interest. It is a career" >=20 > I see nothing to contradict my statement (quoted for effect). >=20 Re: "modern developer" Well, if modern tools means SOA type technologies, then imho, I have to smile at this.=20 While there are no doubt a few areas where these technologies might be useful, the sad reality is that App developers and tools vendors are telling the world "move to SOA or be lost forever", but they have no idea of how really tough this is and/or the huge culture shift in their entire business that this requires. Way to much hype, but "modern" App folks are off saying "we need SOA tools, we need SOA technologies ..we need SOA staff .." Reality check - think about the issues that DCE and common data dictionary initiatives had. Anyone ever experienced how difficult it is for multiple App groups to share stds, processes, and agree on data models? SOA is all this with even more process and culture changes required. And all this at a time when the business is demanding massive cuts in IT spending.=20 Anyway, perhaps a bit OT and not so much related to OpenVMS, but when ever I hear this "modern developer" term, it starts my blood boiling. At some point, someone has to tell the King (industry "modern developer") they are wearing no clothes. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:00:17 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <467C8CC1.5E252DD1@spam.comcast.net> "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > > Sent: June 22, 2007 8:58 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on > > Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) > > > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > > >> Sent: June 21, 2007 4:51 PM > > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > >> Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles > > on > > >> Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS!) > > >> > > > > > > [snip...] > > > > > > > > >> > > >> Few companies are investing in new VMS systems, its all maintenance > > >> and > > >> migration away from VMS, except for the few sites where Rdb and/or > > >> VMS is so > > >> entrenched that the cost and risk of moving outweighs all other > > >> factors. > > > > > > Shhh.. please don't tell Cust's with mission critical environments > > > like the following: > > > > Kerry, I just left one. > > > > A multi-billion doillar p.a. houshhold name. They are expending a > > VERY > > large amount of money to migrate away from HP (VMS/Rdb). Anything but > > HP at > > any cost (and I mean *any* cost). They have absolutely sound reasons > > for > > doing so, none of which have to do with VMS quality or functionality. > > > > Dweeb > > > > Well, as you stated, it sounds like this Cust has issues with HP that > extend well beyond OpenVMS. > > Certainly not something HP wants (no vendor wants unhappy Cust's), and I > would hope the account team is working to correct whatever the issue is. Unfortunately - and top HP management doesn't get this, either - the trouble STARTS at the top. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:35:52 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: Application transparent file encryption (supported)? Message-ID: <1182544552.875003.43080@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 22, 7:55 am, IanMiller wrote: > Glenn Everhart's VDDRIVER virtual disk (Freeware) driver could do want > you want but who would you pay to support it? I'm not the one who would need to pay for it. To be honest I doubt that the customer would either, given the provenance, unless HP agreed to do the support; its one of those corporate policy things. Please don't take that as any kind of dissing of Glenn's programs or capabilities because its not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:02:42 -0700 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Application transparent file encryption (supported)? Message-ID: <1182549762.172810.99130@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Jun 22, 9:35 pm, Rich Jordan wrote: > On Jun 22, 7:55 am, IanMiller wrote: > > > Glenn Everhart's VDDRIVER virtual disk (Freeware) driver could do want > > you want but who would you pay to support it? > > I'm not the one who would need to pay for it. To be honest I doubt > that the customer would either, given the provenance, unless HP agreed > to do the support; its one of those corporate policy things. > > Please don't take that as any kind of dissing of Glenn's programs or > capabilities because its not. Would you not have the same problem if Jur adds encryption to LDDRIVER? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:24:12 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Blast from the past... Message-ID: <467C844C.77DF8DE9@spam.comcast.net> I just used a Carl Lydick-ism from 1995 to decode a ROT-13 encoded version of an alleged leak of the conclusion of the seventh Harry Potter book, "...and the Deathly Hallows". Found it thanx to Google Groups search capability. Don't bother Googling for the leak, BTW - it looks bogus. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:34:15 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Message-ID: Just be sure the code didn't register any exit-handlers, timer ASTs,etc. that might be surprised if somebody deleted the virtual addresses behind the scenes. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 08:28:29 +1000 From: Jim Duff Subject: Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Message-ID: <467c4d0d$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , DoubleU writes: >> Well it is that I would like to be able to replace the old library with a >> newer version containing the same symbol and replace all references to >> the symbol in the unloaded version to references to the newly loaded >> library > > lib$find_image_symbol returns an address, as long as you call that > address you're getting that version. If you then do another > lib$find_image_symbol on a newer image you'll get a different address > and calls to that address will get the new version of the code. > This statement contains the implicit assumption that you restart the main image before calling lib$find_image_signal a second time, which is not the case on linux with the dlopen, dlsym, and dlclose routines. On linux, you can call open a dynamic library, get the symbol address, call it, close the library, and *while the same main image is running*, replace the library and repeat the calls and access the new library. When you call lib$find_image_signal for the first time, it maps the code into your virtual address space. There is no way to unmap it without running down the main image. Calling lib$find_image_signal again in the same image merely returns the address of the procedure already mapped. It does not check to see if there is a new version of the image on disk and remap it. For a (contrived) example of calling lib$find_image_signal and lib$callg, see here: Jim. -- www.eight-cubed.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:52:19 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <467C6EC3.729B9F7D@spam.comcast.net> Stephen Hoffman wrote: > [snip] > But seriously, if you believe this cancellation is going to arise, then > you'll want to look at your particular exposures. Mac OS X and Windows > will eventually end. Yes, even Linux. x86-32 is ending now, as we > watch. And if a platform doesn't "end", it'll morph into something that > few here would ever recognize as being related. This takes years or > decades, but it happens. Those, however, are more natural transitions. The Alphacide was forced for reasons more political than economic. > [snip] > And yes, a somewhat contrarian approach: if you believe your platform is > going away, then you should seriously consider a move to the most > current versions and configurations. Don't stay on ill-supported or > already-ancient hardware and software. ...unless there is no suitable replacement. Then, you live with what you can until the balance swings too far the wrong way. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:18:52 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: I can view it! Was: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <5e2sluF30be9pU1@mid.individual.net> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: [big skip] > I can view it! Tell Leo Demurs (who I recognised in the video) that I said > he needs to get rid of some of that gray! I had to watch it twice to make > certain it was him. > > I needed a newer release of the Flash plug-in. Went to Adobe and downloaded > V9.0.r45. Thanks for posting this, Brian. I was at Flash 9,0,28,0 (according to http://www.adobe.com/products/flash/about/ ) on FF 2.0.0.4 on Windoze XP 2002 SP2, and it *still* wouldn't display. Works fine now under 9,0,45,0. :-) -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:48:01 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <467C6DC1.576603AD@spam.comcast.net> "Craig A. Berry" wrote: > > In article , > "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 06:00:50 -0700, Craig A. Berry > > wrote: > > > >> Thanks. As described at > > > > > > > which says nothing about thorn, much less mistaking it for Y. > > Read it again > > The link originally posted: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/fi > > is about typographical ligatures and says nothing about the letter > thorn no matter how many times I read it. > > The link you posted is invalid: It showed up and worked just fine in Google Groups. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 20:54:28 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: Mac OS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Stephen Hoffman wrote: >> from software rather older than the rebuilt Mac OS kernel that arrived >> with Mac OS X. It's like OpenVMS VAX, in terms of OpenVMS > > Quite different in fact. OS 8.6 is a descendant of the original Lisa > operating system. They had added the ability to have multople > applications running at the same time with "multi finder" in 6, and > embeded it into the OS with 7. Not true multitasking and applications > had to call "systemtask" at regular intervals to give control back to > the OS so the OS might swicth to another app. > > OS-X has very little in common with the original MACoS except for the > still current HFS file system. It allows a rudimentary OS 9.2 to boot > as an application within OS-X. 10.4 drops support for appleshare over > appletalk. (appleshare was Apple's "FAL over decnet") Did you ever try the real FAL with MACs? It was a part of Pathworks for the MacIntosh. Great application, I could do software distribution etc. from Mac to Mac from my VMS VaxStation. It was better than Appleshare. > > > In fact, I get the feeling that OS-X's desktop is more inspired from CDE > than from the original MAC-OS. People have worked for years to try to > get back a funtional Apple Menu and a real trash can on the desktop. > > > In contrast, VAX-VMS and Alpha-VMS were truly the same (initially) from > the user and user mode application point of view with fairly minor > differences. Alpha-VMS diverged simply because of decisions to slow > development of VAX-VMS and since it was a separate code base. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:54:49 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: NFS Startup error ? Message-ID: <467bb889$1@mvb.saic.com> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <467a8ac5@mvb.saic.com>, Mark Berryman writes: >> I serve NFS mount points to my Macs using Multinet NFS server and do not >> have to do anything special. I simply tell folks to use "Connect to >> server" in the Finder pull-down menu and enter: nfs://host/mountpoint >> > Which versions of Multinet and OS X? Mine are probably out of date. Current versions of both: OS X 10.4.9 and Multinet V5.2. >> What's wrong with one that comes with OS X? I use it as both server and >> client between Mac OS X and VMS. > > Where? Perhaps 10.4 or later? I'm currently using 10.4. However, I don't remember having any issues with 10.3 either. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:43:28 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > What did that buy them anyway? More wasted space and a higher server load > to serve that 1pixel GIF. I just created a 1 pixel GIF. It totalled 35 > bytes. color:#RRGGBB; is 14 bytes. That is less than half the size and > it doesn't require an additional fetch from the server (assuming it isn't > in a linked style sheet). It is far worse than that. There is the overhead of making an extra HTTP connection especially if there are multiple references to that 1 pixel gif image (to ensure it hasn't been updated since last accesses). Each connection has a lot of overhead as well as HTTP request and HTTP response headers. But once the browser has received that 1 pixel image to be used as a background, it needs to tile it in the background and then redraw the contents above it. On some browsers, it can take an etermity to do on a large page. On all browsers it slows down the process of displaying the page. But it outlines how people (even HP) get suckered into non standard techniques because their Microsoft HTML editor suggests using 1 pixel GIF images. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:49:43 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <58ce4$467c35ff$cef8887a$22497@TEKSAVVY.COM> Bob Koehler wrote: > But at least they are doing something. DEC has the oportunity after > 9/11 when customers couldn't even tell systems they accessed were > clusters partially housed in the World Trade Center. But instead DEC > marketing took the occaision to show off thier stealth capability. Sept 11 2001 was a state of Limbo for VMS. Curly murdered Alpha on June 25 2001. Carly and Curly announced their engagement on Sept 7th 2001. Nothing was said about VMS' future until May 7th 2002. And what was said then was not encouraging. Until may 7th 2002, VMS was technically still a Compaq product, but Curly had been acting on Carly's wishes untili at least early June 2001 when Curly admitted he had already begun intimate relationship with Carly to discuss their wedding. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:40:08 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:58ce4$467c35ff$cef8887a$22497@TEKSAVVY.COM... And off into the weeds we go. Oh well. Another thread to ignore since it will spawn 300 replies about the death of VMS and woulda-coulda-shoulda. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:56:27 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <467C458B.1080703@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> What did that buy them anyway? More wasted space and a higher server >> load >> to serve that 1pixel GIF. I just created a 1 pixel GIF. It totalled 35 >> bytes. color:#RRGGBB; is 14 bytes. That is less than half the size and >> it doesn't require an additional fetch from the server (assuming it isn't >> in a linked style sheet). > > > It is far worse than that. There is the overhead of making an extra HTTP > connection especially if there are multiple references to that 1 pixel > gif image (to ensure it hasn't been updated since last accesses). Each > connection has a lot of overhead as well as HTTP request and HTTP > response headers. > > But once the browser has received that 1 pixel image to be used as a > background, it needs to tile it in the background and then redraw the > contents above it. On some browsers, it can take an etermity to do on a > large page. On all browsers it slows down the process of displaying the > page. > > But it outlines how people (even HP) get suckered into non standard > techniques because their Microsoft HTML editor suggests using 1 pixel > GIF images. Q: How many Microsoft programmers does it take to change a light bulb? A: Darkness is the new standard! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:20:13 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <39674$467c4b33$cef8887a$1570@TEKSAVVY.COM> FredK wrote: > And off into the weeds we go. Oh well. Another thread to ignore since it > will spawn 300 replies about the death of VMS and woulda-coulda-shoulda. Is there anyone within HP who has the guts to fight upper management's insistence that VMS be relegated to "we'll allow the installed base to continue to use VMS - for now" ?????? Are employees so affraid to lose their jobs if they speak out that they would rather stay employed for 5 more years and then get a big package rather than risk being fired by speaking out and fighting for VMS' success ? Are you not concerned about how customers react to statements such as Livermore and Stallard's ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:28:30 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1182551310.730240.164640@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Jun 20, 8:53 am, IanMiller wrote: > See the video at > > http://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof > > and see which operating system recovers first. I wonder about the > disaster tolerant fish though :-) Is there any way to get a local copy of this video, other than using a video out card and recording it? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:15:10 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <467c7422$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> John Smith wrote: > FredK wrote: >> "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message >> news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... >>> P. Sture wrote: >> >> >> Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There >> were VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only >> mentioned first, it was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the >> way". It wasn't a SAN failover it was a data center failover. It >> was cool. >> >> >> Sheesh. > > > So here's what I suggest ...... > > take a demo like this to the corner of Wall & Broadway in NYC, and the > Docklands in London and do the whole demo again but instument it with > one other thing .......counters with the number of missed/failed > trades and quotes due to the lengthy recovery of Non-Stop, Windows, > PH-UX, and Linux vs. OpenVMS. > > as an example, the LSE does about 8-900 quotes per second (on average > ...more at peaks), so do the math on the delay in recovery. > > > Then translate those missed/failed trades into dollars (easy enough > to do if one places an arbitrary figure on the txn (more if you are > in competition with another exchange on an interlisted security), and > have it update in real time on a big pixelboard display showing the > cost of NOT using OpenVMS. > LSE was a VMS site in the old days. Soon (or is it already??) they will be the "poster child" of billy boy as a pure Windoze trading environment. Go figure. Dweeb > > Problem is that HP makes more money selling every other OS in the demo > except VMS so it'll never happen. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:05:57 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > Sent: June 22, 2007 9:15 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option >=20 [snip...] >=20 > LSE was a VMS site in the old days. Soon (or is it already??) they > will be > the "poster child" of billy boy as a pure Windoze trading > environment. Go > figure. >=20 > Dweeb > > Well, hopefully, the viruses, trojans of the day etc do not hit them like what happened here or it will end up being the type of poster they do not want posted or talked about anywhere: http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm "Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical systems on Windows-based computers for many years, a customer experienced a virus in one of these systems that shut down production for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed, restored and tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at no small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established standard, Vsystem on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for the next system to be replaced." Imagine something like an exchange being down for this long? Think that might make a headline or two? With 5-20 platform security patches being released per month, LSE Operations staff will certainly have their hands full. (sorry JF, could not resist another plug, but it is reality :-)) It would be interesting to find out when (if) they go live. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:34:28 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Organised letter writing to Hurd ? Message-ID: <591b2$467c86ca$cef8887a$25180@TEKSAVVY.COM> Just an idea here: Would there be a point in some sort of organised/coordinated letter writing to Hurd ? I don't mean a petition. I was thing more of a coordinated continuing "debate" with Hurd. Person 1 writes letter to Hurd. Person 1 gets response. Person 2 writes letter to Hurd to argue Hurd's reponse to #1 Person 2 gets response Person 3 write letter to Hurd to argue Hurd's response to #2. etc etc Each letter would not directly quote Hurd's previous responses, but proactively prevent Hurd from using the same canned response by destroying Hurd's arguments before he can make them. In essence, it would allow some form of conversation with Hurd without it appearing to be a conversation and hopefully be able over a number of letters to convince Hurd that VMS should be allowed to flourish instead of just viewing VMS as a database of potential HP-UX customers. Could this have a greater impact than independantly written letters ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:04:54 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Organised letter writing to Hurd ? Message-ID: <467C8DD6.C5D8BBFB@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > Just an idea here: > > Would there be a point in some sort of organised/coordinated letter > writing to Hurd ? > > I don't mean a petition. > > I was thing more of a coordinated continuing "debate" with Hurd. > > Person 1 writes letter to Hurd. > Person 1 gets response. > Person 2 writes letter to Hurd to argue Hurd's reponse to #1 > Person 2 gets response > Person 3 write letter to Hurd to argue Hurd's response to #2. > etc etc > > Each letter would not directly quote Hurd's previous responses, but > proactively prevent Hurd from using the same canned response by > destroying Hurd's arguments before he can make them. > > In essence, it would allow some form of conversation with Hurd without > it appearing to be a conversation and hopefully be able over a number of > letters to convince Hurd that VMS should be allowed to flourish instead > of just viewing VMS as a database of potential HP-UX customers. > > Could this have a greater impact than independantly written letters ? Doubtful. See, unlike us, Hurd not only has a life, it's busy life, at that. Hurd doesn't care about products, he cares about dollars. Don't try to talk the logic of dollars to him - he won't waste his time with us. Unless you personally do millions of dollars worth of business with HP every month, ... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:19:18 GMT From: Chris Sharman Subject: Re: reading news [was: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1)] Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote (lots of good stuff ...) So why can't I see it in google groups? Got a proper newsreader at home, but I've not got one working at work, and google groups shows the thread tree, but omits the content of JFM's post. Anyone recommend an easy way to read newsgroups through a picky corporate firewall? Thanks Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:23:26 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: reading news [was: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1)] Message-ID: <9ac2a$467c4bf4$cef8887a$1570@TEKSAVVY.COM> Chris Sharman wrote: > and google groups shows the thread tree, but omits the content of JFM's > post. Many people would say it is a very good thing :-) ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.339 ************************