INFO-VAX Fri, 06 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 366 Contents: Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) RE: HP "Support" for OpenVMS Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Itanium serial ports Re: Itanium serial ports Re: Itanium serial ports Re: Itanium serial ports Re: July the 4th RE: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Memory problem Re: Memory problem Re: Memory problem Re: Memory problem Re: Memory problem Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Upgrading Firmware on Itanium FC cards. WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Re: WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Re: XML for VMS Re: XML for VMS Re: XML for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:05:57 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: In article <468d8432$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years > >>> ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) > >> If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. > >> > >> More and better control structure, more data types, extension > >> mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. > >> > >> I don't think it will happen. > >> > >> A server shell language is not a sales point today. > >> > >> If a VMS user wants something else, then they can > >> look at Perl or Python. > > > > Which of those ships as part of the base o.s. and so is guaranteed to be > > found > > on every VMS installation, past and present? > > None. > > But if you have scripting requirements that are beyond a normal > level of DCL, then installing something extra should not be a > problem. > > BTW, I would not complain if VMS shipped with Python ... > I've got a Compaq labelled e-Business CD here from August 2001 which came as part of Alpha V7.3. That contains CSWS, Java, plus Attunity, RTR etc. No Perl or Python, but a precedent is there for shipping extra software with base VMS. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 07:39:15 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: In article <468D12B0.39A204A5@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > I wrote some backup code for a previous site that was 44 individual proc.'s, > over 4400 lines including comments (roughly 73 printed pages). I made it modular > to maximize maintainability. We had some heavily nested startup procedures for some 11/780 with lots of custom hardware and non-standard floating address space layouts. I moved all the prologs (DCL comments implementing the developer's coding prolog standard) to epilogs of the file and placed an unconditional $EXIT in front of them so DCL wouldn't have to parse through all those comments. Never did get a chance to actually measure and see if it made any real difference, but I felt good after doing it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:12:59 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468df98c$1@mvb.saic.com> David J Dachtera wrote: > Mark Berryman wrote: >> David J Dachtera wrote: >>> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years >>>>> ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) >>>> If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. >>>> >>>> More and better control structure, more data types, extension >>>> mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. >>>> >>>> I don't think it will happen. >>>> >>>> A server shell language is not a sales point today. >>>> >>>> If a VMS user wants something else, then they can >>>> look at Perl or Python. >>> Which of those ships as part of the base o.s. and so is guaranteed to be found >>> on every VMS installation, past and present? >> And this is a requirement, why? > > If you have to ask, you're not likely to understand the answer. Eh? I have to admit I didn't expect that from you, David. Asking questions is one of the single biggest ways we have to learn. If you can't or won't explain the reason behind your stance that usually means you're opinion is based on some form of prejudice and has no actual foundation behind it. >> TCP/IP is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past and >> present. > > Irrelevant. DECnet ships with the o.s. Totally relevant if you're using TCP/IP. It means you are using software that doesn't fit the requirements you are leveling against others. Are you saying that non of your VMS systems uses TCP/IP? >> Clustering is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past >> and present. > > Clustering is not always needed. Same comment as above. Are you saying that none of your VMS systems are using TCP/IP? > >> Any computer-related standard adopted in the past 20 years is not >> guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past and present. > > Most things considered "standard" today are only de-facto, not true "industry" > standards. Now that comment really is irrelevant. There are standards bodies in the computer industry that generate real live actual standards, not de-facto standards or conventions. Under your requirements they might as well stop what they are doing because there is no way for these "recent" standards to be present on all of anyone's platform, past and present. >> To adopt an attitude of "every good idea that comes along relative to a >> CLI must be incorporated into DCL because I can't guarantee that every >> VMS system will have access to the tool that the rest of the world uses >> to make use of that good idea" does not make sense to me. > > Not sure where that came from. Didn't see it in this thread up to this point. I saw it there. If you don't agree it was there then a polite restatement of where you are coming from would have been nice. >> I recently converted a procedure I have that runs nightly from DCL to >> Perl. The DCL version took 4 hours to complete, the Perl version takes >> less than 1 hour and is processing more data than the DCL version did. >> Assuming this procedure were of sufficient general interest that I >> wanted to submit it for the next freeware disk, what would suggest I do >> with it? > > Package it with a perl distro. that can be installed on V7.3-2 and up without > compiling from source. I run what I believe to be the world's largest freeware archive of VMS software. Absolutely none of those packages includes a distribution of the language the package was written in. Why should this one be different? Here's a group of 10 of us developing Perl scripts, for example. Does the end user want to end up installing 10 copies of possibly different Perl interpreters because he has a use for those scripts? I don't think so. The package lists Perl as a pre-requisite. The OS vendor makes a distribution of Perl available for anyone who wants it, a supported version even. The fact that Perl didn't ship with the base OS is irrelevant. The fact that Perl is available for the base OS, is. >> I really, really can't understand the attitude of those folks here who >> say "if it doesn't ship with VMS then don't suggest it as a solution". > > If you have to ask, you're not likely to understand the answer. Permit me to surprise you. Try me. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:43:27 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468E631F.99D11DBA@spam.comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years > >>> ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) > >> If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. > >> > >> More and better control structure, more data types, extension > >> mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. > >> > >> I don't think it will happen. > >> > >> A server shell language is not a sales point today. > >> > >> If a VMS user wants something else, then they can > >> look at Perl or Python. > > > > Which of those ships as part of the base o.s. and so is guaranteed to be found > > on every VMS installation, past and present? > > None. > > But if you have scripting requirements that are beyond a normal > level of DCL, then installing something extra should not be a > problem. Never worked in a U.S. Gov't (FDA) regulated industry, have you? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:39:44 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468E7050.92C9D703@spam.comcast.net> Mark Berryman wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > If you have to ask, you're not likely to understand the answer. > > Permit me to surprise you. Try me. Well, I was rather hoping you would. I honestly didn't expect such challenges from you, either. Maybe it's just the world environment has us all on edge. As I mentioned, providing tools that require something not provided in the base o.s. installation - whether it's a run-time interpreter, a shareable image library, etc. - implies acceptance of the requirement to provide the pre-requisite pieces along with the end-product. I know you know that - hence, my surprise at your statement. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:41:58 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > Mark Berryman wrote: >> David J Dachtera wrote: >>> If you have to ask, you're not likely to understand the answer. >> Permit me to surprise you. Try me. > > Well, I was rather hoping you would. I honestly didn't expect such challenges > from you, either. Maybe it's just the world environment has us all on edge. > > As I mentioned, providing tools that require something not provided in the base > o.s. installation - whether it's a run-time interpreter, a shareable image > library, etc. - implies acceptance of the requirement to provide the > pre-requisite pieces along with the end-product. > > I know you know that - hence, my surprise at your statement. That OpenVMS is in so many pieces is both a strength and a great weakness. That products or features are not available across the line -- PCSI on OpenVMS VAX V5.5-2 -- have caused problems. That DCL is widely available and largely static is an advantage. That ECOs are and should be available individually and/or as an aggregate kit has been a subject of debate forever. That tools such as perl, Java, php or some other common scripting languages are not available by default has been a longstanding problem, and a longstanding benefit. Probably the biggest limitation here (IMNSHO) is the lack of an easy feature test and feature add-on tool, and a library of add-ons. This would be the direct descendant of the layered product distribution and the HP layered product FTP site and the ITRC ECO site and the Freeware, where you have a tool -- Son Of PCSI -- that manages this for you. Linux and Mac OS X have various forms of sort of tool and in various stages, but neither Windows (AFAIK) nor OpenVMS have it. There are various second-level issues which can get quite ugly here, too, such as what the SYSMAN system startup mechanisms encountered with the sequencing of these startup procedures. There's no right answer here. Folks that don't want to or cannot move forward will find a way not to move forward, and folks that do want to move forward will find a way to move forward. Product vendors are faced with similar types of difficulties and decisions here, both with funding and marketing and selling of the products and the product upgrades that might be funded, and with the competitive nature of the business. Again, there's no right answer. Would I like to see added features in the base OS? Yes. This isn't free, however. And there isn't going to be a uniform welcome for these new features. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:00:04 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Message-ID: <89qji.1$uy7.0@newsfe12.lga> In article <14jji.158$175.2@newsfe02.lga>, "Ray" writes: > > >> Yeah, L. Ron Hubbard is one of the richest guys in the cemetary. > >It's not particularly difficult to manage that feat if you keep writing and >releasing books after you die! I can't get away from these loons. They're mentioned here in c.o.v. I heard way to much about Tom Cruze's insanity when they filmed a part of 'War of the Worlds' here in Howell (pro)NJ. This weekend just past, I went to Montreal to photograph a gig and what do I see? http://www.tmesis.com/montreal-001.jpg. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:57:03 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) Message-ID: <3Jlji.3512$Np2.2157@trnddc07> Tom Linden wrote: > On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:58:55 -0700, Stephen Hoffman > wrote: > >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> Can I use /LIMIT and/or /SIZE to make them appear identical to the VAX? >>> Disk $6$DKA0:, device type DEC RZ2DA-LA, is online, member of shadow >>> set DSA10:, >>> Disk $6$DKA100:, device type QUANTUM ATLAS V 9 SCA, is online, >>> member of shadow >>> set DSA10: >> >> >> With the Dissimilar Device Shadowing (DDS) capabiliites of current >> OpenVMS Alpha and OpenVMS I64 releases starting with V7.3-2, yes. >> >> With OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2, do remember to read the following >> release note: >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/6668/6668pro_007.html >> >> No DDS on OpenVMS VAX. >> >> As for options here, you'll have to use an intelligent RAID >> controller or such here, and set the controller(s) to present the >> same numbers of blocks for each member of the shadowset for use on >> OpenVMS VAX. Or acquire some similarly-sized disks, and roll forward >> and retire the present devices. >> > I my question was whether was a way using qualifiers such as /LIMIT and > /SIZE to > make dissimilar drives look the same to the VAX. Apparently, no. /LIMIT and /SIZE are implemented with the ODS-2 and ODS-5 file structures, not around them. So the disks are presented by the driver as two different sizes, and it is up to the shadowing software and the F11 XQP to make sense of them. Some of the rules the XQP needs to implement: 1) In a shadow set, limit /SIZE to the physical size of the smallest disk in the set, on any disk 2) Ignore any over-allocated space in BITMAP.SYS 3) Recognize that a file extent that goes past the end of /SIZE is an error even if it is less than /LIMIT or the current maximum valid /SIZE of the volume. 4) Do something sensible with the free block count of the disk/volume. 5) Implement the necessary locking so that SET VOLUME/SIZE will work (i.e. notify the other nodes that they should now readjust their notion of the volume's size.) 1) is definitely not implemented on VAX. I think 2 is implemented on VAX, it's always worked that way, because BITMAP.SYS must be some integral number of clusters long, and unless the physical size of the disk just happens to be an exact multiple of 4096 times the clustersize, there will always be extra bits at the end which don't correspond to available clusters on the disk, even if they are clear. I'm not sure if item 3 is implemented in the XQP or in analyze/disk or both, and is probably implemented on VAX to detect trashed retrieval pointers. 4) seems to work okay on VAXes, but I haven't consciously tested it. Same with 5). Note that the commands to change size are $ SET VOLUME commands, not $ SET DEVICE commands. This isn't definitive, but for consistency, that would mean they mess around with volume (structured) characteristics, not disk (raw device) characteristics. In other words, /SIZE and /LIMIT are not implemented at the driver level, causing the driver to present a smaller disk to the XQP. The driver always presents the full size of the disk to the XQP, but the XQP extracts the volume size and limit from the volume header block and uses those. (I'm sure at mount time, you get an error if the size is greater than the physical disk size.) Since the volume header is just an ordinary disk block, it is identical on all members of a shadow set. If they (HP) wanted to do this at the driver level, they would have to store the current size outside of the disk as presented by the driver to the file system, or else the file system could step on it and break things. (Bad layering.) MSA1000s, HSZs, etc can do this since they can store volume metadata in NVRAM, or in config areas of the disks that aren't visible to the host OS, but it would be a lot more work to do this on locally attached disks, for little apparent gain. (It would get around the "this is an old disk and wasn't initialized with /LIMIT, so how do I expanded it without a private mount problem", but only if you told the driver to grab some chunk of the local disk for storing its metadata, which would require re-initializing the disk, so you're right back to square one!) DVE really comes into its own on shadowed volumes on expandable storage arrays. You could always (at least since the modern BACKUP arrived in ?V3.0?) expand a disk by backup/image from a smaller disk to a larger one. But to do an online expansion, you need to either play musical shadow sets (is everyone familiar with the children's party game "musical chairs", or is that an american thing?), or you need some kind of smart controller that can expand storage in the background, for example by adding disks to a RAID-5 set or a stripe set. Those already have metadata describing the size of the disks, but the driver doesn't need to get involved, it just passes the size along to the XQP. So I think they opted to leave the drivers alone and do all the DVE work in the XQP. The bottom line is I still can't think of a way to expand an old (pre-DVE disk) without mounting it privately once to do a set volume/limit. I usually do this while the system is shut down for the VMS upgrade to the DVE-supporting version (V7.3-2 or later, IIRC), just takes a few seconds. However, if you have a cluster and are doing rolling reboots, you could have some disks that were initialized in 1984 and have *never* been dismounted. Gosh darn that cluster uptime :-) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 07:20:03 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) Message-ID: In article <3Jlji.3512$Np2.2157@trnddc07>, John Santos writes: > But to do an online expansion, you need to either > play musical shadow sets (is everyone familiar with the children's > party game "musical chairs", or is that an american thing?) Perhaps, though perhaps not under that name. In German it is called "Reise nach Jerusalem" ("journey to Jerusalem"). ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 07:29:38 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: RE: HP "Support" for OpenVMS Message-ID: In article <002201c7bf0c$488643e0$d992cba0$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > Yep, the current silly season seems to be planned obsolesces for software. I > wonder... could it be that Microsoft has bribed a few of them? What kind of > laptops are they using??!!! I don't know. But I do know of VMS 4.7 on an 11/785 that's feeling quite healthy, that's about 20 years old, or close to 3 times as old as the 7 years someone else cited from IBM. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:52:16 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <468ce6ad@mvb.saic.com>, > Mark Berryman writes: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>>In article , >>> "Main, Kerry" writes: >>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] >>>>>On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >>>>>Sent: July 5, 2007 12:43 PM >>>>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>>>Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>>>>=20 >>>>>In article <90d24$468d09bd$cef8887a$5386@teksavvy.com>, >>>>> JF Mezei writes: >>>>> >>>>>>Mr Main, with ragards to your patches issue. >>>>>> >>>>>>In the late 1990s, the weenies would convince management to >>>>> >>>>>deploy >>>>> >>>>>>Windows because it was a lot cheaper, there were a lot more >>>>> >>>>>available >>>>> >>>>>>staff and it had an assured future. When asked if there was a >>>>> >>>>>virus >>>>> >>>>>>problem, the answer would inevitably be "we'll set it up properly >>>>> >>>>>and it >>>>> >>>>>>won't affect us". >>>>>> >>>>>>By the time they got hit with I LOVE YOU or some other >>>>> >>>>>debilitating >>>>> >>>>>>event, their deployment of windows was so entrenched that it was >>>>>>impossible to change to a real OS so thet learned to live with it >>>>> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>>>try to minimise the damage. >>>>>> >>>>>>Your story of Vista switching back to VMS because of a windows >>>>> >>>>>virus is >>>>> >>>>>>very good, but unfortunatly rare. >>>>> >>>>>=20 >>>>>And probably not the whole (or even the real) story as what people >>>>>use >>>>>Vista for can not be done on VMS. Vista is a desktop operating >>>>>system, >>>>>not a server operating system. >>>>>=20 >>>>>bill >>>>>=20 >>>> >>>>Bill... >>>> >>>>mmm.. you missed the point. >>>> >>>>The earlier URL points to a company called VISTA that packages or uses a >>>>mission critical software package called SCADA on a number of platforms. >>>>One of their Customers was running Windows Server and was down for 2 >>>>days because of a nasty virus. Subsequently, they have since switched to >>>>OpenVMS on Integrity and by the report, the migration went very well. >>>> >>>>Absolutely zero to do with client stuff. >>> >>>OK, sorry. When one uses the terms "Vista" and Windows in the same >>>paragraph today certain assumptions are bound to be made. So then, >>>this just goes back to the original argument about someone was doing >>>with a servert hat allowed it to come in contact with a virus!! If >>>the VMS system is managed as badly as the Windows system obviously >>>was they are bound to have problems even with VMS. Not necessarily >>>the same problems, but problems and possibly security problems. No >>>OS is immune from the effects of incompetent sys admins. >> >>If I read you correctly you seem to be claiming that only incompetently >>managed Windows systems get infected. If so, you are far from correct. >> There are many documented cases of systems being hacked and/or >>infected even though they were up to date on patches and running current >>antivirus software (as well as other protections). > > > There is a lot more to admining any system than just that. Starting > with a proper config. > > >> Look up the impact >>of almost any zero-day exploit to name just one example. > > > I don't have to all I have to do is look at systems that are not being > hacked/zombied/infected. A properly admined IT system, no matter what > the OS, is going to be stable, secure and usefull. The reciprical also > applies, no matter what the OS. > > The fact that the news is loaded with cases of systems being hacked only > points out the fact that with the proliferation of IT systems has come > a dearth of competent sysadmins. Just because you admined the 2 PC's in > your high school library when you were a sophmore doesn't make you a > sysadmin. Any more than the fact that you ran a web site on Linux > out of your dad's garage during the dot-com boom made you an "IT > Professional". Maybe, in the name of true investigative reporting, > the journals running these aryicles should also publish the credentials > of the parties responsible for maintaining the systems. Oh wait, if > we did that we would have to stop bashing Windows, Unix. Can't have > that now, can we..... > > bill > If competent administration is all that is needed to prevent a system from being hijacked, then why do you need *any* antivirus software at all? And why do you *ever* need to apply any patches? The answer, of course, is that a system exposed to a virus or an unpatched exploit can get hacked anyway, no matter how competent the administrator. Keeping up on patches and A/V is part of the job of the administrator. But there is a race condition. What if the bad guy attacks before the O/S vendor knows about the exploit, or the A/V vendor designs, implements and distributes a test for it? Then you're up the creek. What are the chances of this happening? Obviously, the more viruses and serious O/S bugs, the greater the odds. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:38:10 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , John Santos wrote: > The answer, of course, is that a system exposed to a virus or an unpatched > exploit can get hacked anyway, no matter how competent the administrator. > Keeping up on patches and A/V is part of the job of the administrator. > > But there is a race condition. What if the bad guy attacks before the > O/S vendor knows about the exploit, or the A/V vendor designs, implements > and distributes a test for it? Then you're up the creek. What are the > chances of this happening? Obviously, the more viruses and serious O/S > bugs, the greater the odds. > One problem there is that certain M$ patches have broken things, sometimes quite seriously. This can lead to a certain reticence to apply patches in a timely fashion. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 11:59:41 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5f6p5cF3ac9ruU1@mid.individual.net> In article , John Santos writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <468ce6ad@mvb.saic.com>, >> Mark Berryman writes: >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>>In article , >>>> "Main, Kerry" writes: >>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] >>>>>>On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >>>>>>Sent: July 5, 2007 12:43 PM >>>>>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>>>>Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>In article <90d24$468d09bd$cef8887a$5386@teksavvy.com>, >>>>>> JF Mezei writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Mr Main, with ragards to your patches issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In the late 1990s, the weenies would convince management to >>>>>> >>>>>>deploy >>>>>> >>>>>>>Windows because it was a lot cheaper, there were a lot more >>>>>> >>>>>>available >>>>>> >>>>>>>staff and it had an assured future. When asked if there was a >>>>>> >>>>>>virus >>>>>> >>>>>>>problem, the answer would inevitably be "we'll set it up properly >>>>>> >>>>>>and it >>>>>> >>>>>>>won't affect us". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>By the time they got hit with I LOVE YOU or some other >>>>>> >>>>>>debilitating >>>>>> >>>>>>>event, their deployment of windows was so entrenched that it was >>>>>>>impossible to change to a real OS so thet learned to live with it >>>>>> >>>>>>and >>>>>> >>>>>>>try to minimise the damage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Your story of Vista switching back to VMS because of a windows >>>>>> >>>>>>virus is >>>>>> >>>>>>>very good, but unfortunatly rare. >>>>>> >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>And probably not the whole (or even the real) story as what people >>>>>>use >>>>>>Vista for can not be done on VMS. Vista is a desktop operating >>>>>>system, >>>>>>not a server operating system. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>bill >>>>>>=20 >>>>> >>>>>Bill... >>>>> >>>>>mmm.. you missed the point. >>>>> >>>>>The earlier URL points to a company called VISTA that packages or uses a >>>>>mission critical software package called SCADA on a number of platforms. >>>>>One of their Customers was running Windows Server and was down for 2 >>>>>days because of a nasty virus. Subsequently, they have since switched to >>>>>OpenVMS on Integrity and by the report, the migration went very well. >>>>> >>>>>Absolutely zero to do with client stuff. >>>> >>>>OK, sorry. When one uses the terms "Vista" and Windows in the same >>>>paragraph today certain assumptions are bound to be made. So then, >>>>this just goes back to the original argument about someone was doing >>>>with a servert hat allowed it to come in contact with a virus!! If >>>>the VMS system is managed as badly as the Windows system obviously >>>>was they are bound to have problems even with VMS. Not necessarily >>>>the same problems, but problems and possibly security problems. No >>>>OS is immune from the effects of incompetent sys admins. >>> >>>If I read you correctly you seem to be claiming that only incompetently >>>managed Windows systems get infected. If so, you are far from correct. >>> There are many documented cases of systems being hacked and/or >>>infected even though they were up to date on patches and running current >>>antivirus software (as well as other protections). >> >> >> There is a lot more to admining any system than just that. Starting >> with a proper config. >> >> >>> Look up the impact >>>of almost any zero-day exploit to name just one example. >> >> >> I don't have to all I have to do is look at systems that are not being >> hacked/zombied/infected. A properly admined IT system, no matter what >> the OS, is going to be stable, secure and usefull. The reciprical also >> applies, no matter what the OS. >> >> The fact that the news is loaded with cases of systems being hacked only >> points out the fact that with the proliferation of IT systems has come >> a dearth of competent sysadmins. Just because you admined the 2 PC's in >> your high school library when you were a sophmore doesn't make you a >> sysadmin. Any more than the fact that you ran a web site on Linux >> out of your dad's garage during the dot-com boom made you an "IT >> Professional". Maybe, in the name of true investigative reporting, >> the journals running these aryicles should also publish the credentials >> of the parties responsible for maintaining the systems. Oh wait, if >> we did that we would have to stop bashing Windows, Unix. Can't have >> that now, can we..... >> >> bill >> > > If competent administration is all that is needed to prevent a system from > being hijacked, then why do you need *any* antivirus software at all? > > And why do you *ever* need to apply any patches? > > So, what, is everything mutually exclusive here? Using anti-virus software (are you aware that you should actually be using at least two different anti-virus prodicts?) and applying patches (as needed based on your system and operational necessity) is part of being a competent sys admin. > > > > > > > > > > > The answer, of course, is that a system exposed to a virus or an unpatched > exploit can get hacked anyway, no matter how competent the administrator. Well, being as we are talking server boxes and not desktops, a competent sysadmin doesn read email or surf the web with the server box which would eliminate pretty much all the standard attack vectors. Which comes back the Los Alamos story. Just how did the server get exposed to the virus? > Keeping up on patches and A/V is part of the job of the administrator. Of course it is. But that doesn't mean installing every patch wether it applies to your system or not or applying it the second you hear it exists. It is the sys admins job to decide the impact and then decide when and even if the patch is an operational necessity. For example, if my server does not need to serve up webpages I certainly wouldn't install the IIS component on it. So then, why would I apply IIS patches? > > But there is a race condition. What if the bad guy attacks before the > O/S vendor knows about the exploit, Not knowing "the expolit" this question can obviously not be answered. Of course, what if a meteor hits your data center and lands right on top of your prime server? I try no tot loose sleep over things over which I have no control. > or the A/V vendor designs, implements > and distributes a test for it? If you don;t let your servers access the known virus vectors this is a non-problem. > Then you're up the creek. What are the > chances of this happening? Obviously, the more viruses and serious O/S > bugs, the greater the odds. Well, the virus ones are easy to avoid, as I (and others) have repeatedly pointed out. The others take a much more complete scheme but can be avoided as well. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 08:02:57 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: P. Sture [mailto:paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch] > Sent: July 6, 2007 4:38 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > In article , John Santos > > wrote: >=20 > > The answer, of course, is that a system exposed to a virus or an > unpatched > > exploit can get hacked anyway, no matter how competent the > administrator. > > Keeping up on patches and A/V is part of the job of the > administrator. > > > > But there is a race condition. What if the bad guy attacks > before the > > O/S vendor knows about the exploit, or the A/V vendor designs, > implements > > and distributes a test for it? Then you're up the creek. What > are the > > chances of this happening? Obviously, the more viruses and > serious O/S > > bugs, the greater the odds. > > >=20 > One problem there is that certain M$ patches have broken things, > sometimes quite seriously. This can lead to a certain reticence to > apply > patches in a timely fashion. >=20 > -- > Paul Sture Which is why experienced IT shops always test their important applications with any new patches - especially security ones as it often translates to access or auditing or authentication type errors. This is also why using a platform that has 5-20 security patches released *each and every* month is such a major impact on normal QA/Testing and Operations staff. When you have hundreds of systems (small-medium DC), think of the effort that this entails. A few examples: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/26/linux_update_shocker/=20 http://tinyurl.com/z9p4d=20 And in case anyone thinks this is a recent happening, here is article from 2002: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1513928,00.asp "More Patches Aren't the Answer" Key extract (and remember this is from 2002): " Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. First of all, as the broken patch for IE illustrates, patches don't always fix things and can often cause new problems. Using an automated patching tool means you are constantly at risk of introducing new problems without any chance to do testing before the patches are applied. Of course, the other option is to watch alerts and use patch-scanning tools and update systems yourself. Oh, you have another job that you need to do? I'm sure you can squeeze it in between the hours you'll spend finding the right patches, testing them, then deploying them." Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 07:32:53 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <5f6p5cF3ac9ruU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > So, what, is everything mutually exclusive here? Using anti-virus > software (are you aware that you should actually be using at least > two different anti-virus prodicts?) and applying patches (as needed > based on your system and operational necessity) is part of being a > competent sys admin. Not on my VMS systems, it isn't. I could write an anti-virus program for VMS in one line. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 07:59:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <5f4lcpF3a7rgpU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > And probably not the whole (or even the real) story as what people use > Vista for can not be done on VMS. What? Run virii? ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 08:04:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4yc37tKKqmSn@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5f51euF3a323vU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > I don't have to all I have to do is look at systems that are not being > hacked/zombied/infected. A properly admined IT system, no matter what > the OS, is going to be stable, secure and usefull. The reciprical also > applies, no matter what the OS. The last sentence is undeniably true. The second is not. Stable: maybe, usefull: quite likely, secure: not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:02:49 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 6, 2007 8:00 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 [Snip ..] >=20 > So, what, is everything mutually exclusive here? Using anti-virus > software (are you aware that you should actually be using at least > two different anti-virus prodicts?) and applying patches (as needed > based on your system and operational necessity) is part of being a > competent sys admin. > > That's plain silly. Having two in memory packages checking everything and tripping over each other thinking the other is a virus? That is a sure sign of someone looking at Windows server admin from the back seat. With hundreds of servers in your typical small-medium DC (remember large shop's can have thousands of servers internally), many of which you have no idea of what services are running on each server, how do you suggest companies review these 5-20 *monthly* security patches to determine which ones are needed and which ones are not? In addition, since well run IT shops typically adopt a std server OS image, how do you propose they maintain a standard server images with all the new security patches that are required? > > > > > > The answer, of course, is that a system exposed to a virus or an > unpatched > > exploit can get hacked anyway, no matter how competent the > administrator. >=20 > Well, being as we are talking server boxes and not desktops, a > competent > sysadmin doesn read email or surf the web with the server box which > would > eliminate pretty much all the standard attack vectors. Which comes > back > the Los Alamos story. Just how did the server get exposed to the > virus? >=20 [snip ...] Bill, again, you do not seem to realize how modern Windows servers are administered in med to large shops. Perhaps you have a very small number of Windows servers that you administer? What you are proposing is an approach typical of a very small shop - not a med-large DC. Reality check - Many Windows (Linux) server admin, monitoring and management packages are web based, hence requires IIS or equivalent web server running. You also need IE, Firefox or some other browser on the server to use these admin packages locally. The same is true for other platforms as well. In addition, many SAN Mgmt appliances that control your entire SAN with all your data are simply web based Windows or Linux servers. Some do not even have a command line option. Its all locked down and done with a GUI (appliance approach). So, if there is an IIS or IE hole, then you absolutely do need to consider these a potential server issue - even on your appliance boxes out there. You asked how a server can get exposed to a virus .. Laptops, PDA's, memory sticks, cell phones etc are constantly traversing from external networks (airports, hotels, home) to internal networks bypassing the firewalls. The trojans, worms, viruses etc these personal devices might pick up on external networks are typically designed to propagate themselves and /or look for servers with known holes and exploit them. If you were a bad type person, what better approach to get into a large corp like a stock exchange than to write a trojan, worm etc that gets on an employees personal device (laptop or ? that all have browsers and sometimes IIS services running themselves) installed directly on the Cust internal network and then looks for known server holes?=20 Course, you could always take away the employees (traders?) Laptops and PDA's ... yeah right. Now see above notes about whether a server platform that has 5-20 new security patches released *each and every month* seems like such a good future platform strategy for important applications. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:25:11 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 6, 2007 8:00 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > In article , > John Santos writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <468ce6ad@mvb.saic.com>, > >> Mark Berryman writes: > >> [snip ...] >=20 > > > > But there is a race condition. What if the bad guy attacks > before the > > O/S vendor knows about the exploit, >=20 > Not knowing "the expolit" this question can obviously not be > answered. > Of course, what if a meteor hits your data center and lands right > on > top of your prime server? I try no tot loose sleep over things > over > which I have no control. >=20 Well, things are definitely shifting in the bad guys world.=20 Check out the new ebay for vulnerabilities: (this should raise a few eyebrows) http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=3D128411&WT.svl=3Dnews1_1 = " An Auction Site for Vulnerabilities" "JULY 5, 2007 | Discover a security flaw in a major application or system? You can't sell it on eBay. But starting this week, you can sell it on a new auction site that's not too much different." [see rest of article..] Regards, Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:06:45 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <5f4qcuF3a796tU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > "Main, Kerry" writes: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] >>> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >>> Sent: July 5, 2007 12:43 PM >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>>=20 >>> In article <90d24$468d09bd$cef8887a$5386@teksavvy.com>, >>> JF Mezei writes: >>> > Mr Main, with ragards to your patches issue. >>> > >>> > In the late 1990s, the weenies would convince management to >>> deploy >>> > Windows because it was a lot cheaper, there were a lot more >>> available >>> > staff and it had an assured future. When asked if there was a >>> virus >>> > problem, the answer would inevitably be "we'll set it up properly >>> and it >>> > won't affect us". >>> > >>> > By the time they got hit with I LOVE YOU or some other >>> debilitating >>> > event, their deployment of windows was so entrenched that it was >>> > impossible to change to a real OS so thet learned to live with it >>> and >>> > try to minimise the damage. >>> > >>> > Your story of Vista switching back to VMS because of a windows >>> virus is >>> > very good, but unfortunatly rare. >>>=20 >>> And probably not the whole (or even the real) story as what people >>> use >>> Vista for can not be done on VMS. Vista is a desktop operating >>> system, >>> not a server operating system. >>>=20 >>> bill >>>=20 >> >> Bill... >> >> mmm.. you missed the point. >> >> The earlier URL points to a company called VISTA that packages or uses a >> mission critical software package called SCADA on a number of platforms. >> One of their Customers was running Windows Server and was down for 2 >> days because of a nasty virus. Subsequently, they have since switched to >> OpenVMS on Integrity and by the report, the migration went very well. >> >> Absolutely zero to do with client stuff. > >OK, sorry. When one uses the terms "Vista" and Windows in the same >paragraph today certain assumptions are bound to be made. Don't we know it. Microsoft's choice of the name Vista was probably not a good choice. In our University Vista is the WEBCT Virtual Learning Environment. In the health industry there is an electronic health records system called VISTA see http://www.vistasoftware.org I'm sure the name is used by lots of companies for lots of products. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >So then, >this just goes back to the original argument about someone was doing >with a servert hat allowed it to come in contact with a virus!! If >the VMS system is managed as badly as the Windows system obviously >was they are bound to have problems even with VMS. Not necessarily >the same problems, but problems and possibly security problems. No >OS is immune from the effects of incompetent sys admins. > >bill > > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:39:31 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468E6233.CB90C1C8@spam.comcast.net> Please don't post HTML to a text-only newsgroup. Having to cut-and-paste manually since Netscrape didn't see anything quotable. > How do you think? The same way anybody sells anything. Know your > product, know your customer needs, find the right fit, and the sell it > to your customer. It is hard work! ...and my motivation to do what HP doesn't want done is ... what? > Gad's man - they already HAVE, or have you not noticed them trying to > breath life into through the DSPP? Visibility factor again. > Well, convince me of that. I sure don't see it historically being used > in large shops - only mid-sized shops. http://www.cerner.com/ for one. We are a Cerner customer. Our database is approaching 4TB, 5-node cluster of GS1280s, storage is EMC DMX-II. I'm sure others here can testify about their installation's size. > HP primarily wants to sell hardware, and only secondly operating > systems. HP-UX scales well, but not into the mainframe range. Tandem > scales into the mainframe range though. Itanium has the capability to > do so, I believe. Itanic SuperDomes are out there, but lack the CPU horsepower to overcome memory latency issues in large RAM (64GB+) configurations. > Know anyone who does not know who HP is? Knowing who HP is is not the issue, knowing what they sell is the issue. > Talking to people in the real world of course... most of them think of > HP as a very high technology company, and a builder of products that > "just work." So long as those products are not running WhineBloze, yes that's a fair statement, although even their printer division has made their share of firmware missteps. > Good heavens man - they are not insane. Available evidence does not support that claim. > They certainly want 1000 people out here selling products. They don't > care if it is OpenVMS or HP-UX- Well, actually, yes they do, or they wouldn't be working so hard to rid themselves of VMS. > This is actually the core of my disagreement with you, you know. HP is > basically a well run company You're joking, right? > and deals more with facts than with "wants." ... a paradigm which clearly has no grasp of marketing, customer focus, etc. > If something sells or makes a profit, it will be supported. It has > value! ...which is definitely what most biz school graduates would be expected to believe. Experience with HP to date has not borne that out. > Can VMS compete in this market? Who knows, I sure don't. VMS *WAS* competing in that market prior to The Alphacide back in 2001. Even unto its premature death without a suitable replacement platform, Alpha was a contender, and will be long after the bulk of this group has migrated away from it. > Huh - well, Alpha never seemed to have the same target audience as > say, POWER chips do. Um, well, actually, it was the EXACT SAME audience! > A port to POWER would give VMS some really interesting > things to look at, like LPARS for instance, Ever heard of "Galaxy"? > CPU load balancing, VMS has had that since the early days of SMP. > and oh year- really fast chips that can scale to Mainframe > capabilities. What might that mean in this day and age? 16-CPU GS1280s are impressively fast until you bog them down with poorly written software. > Aport to Intel, on the other hand, would make VMS nearly unbeatable in > the midrange market, depending upon pricing and support. A claim this group has been making for decades. > Itanium is a big question to me. ...and to the market-at-large, hence epithets like, "Itanic". > Undoubtedly, it has the design chops to take it to world class > mainframe level performance. Will Intel and HP take it there? Only if > there are sales to support it. ...which, again, falls primarly into HP's area of responsibility. Even if we could gather a sufficiently pecunious consortium to be able to launch the massive visibility campaigns it would take to resurrect VMS at this stage, if HP remains oblivious to it, we'd be building a "house of cards" out of wet paper towels. The chances of it surviving pale in comparison to the probability of (certain political statements that would trigger another hundred-plus-post sub-thread). > Otherwise, the only hope for VMS, as I see it, is a port to mainstream > processor. Again, something this group has been saying since before I joined back circa. 1995. (Got my first VMS machines in 1983.) -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:11:30 GMT From: "John Vottero" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:evvgDjsaLJu4@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <5f6p5cF3ac9ruU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes: >> >> So, what, is everything mutually exclusive here? Using anti-virus >> software (are you aware that you should actually be using at least >> two different anti-virus prodicts?) and applying patches (as needed >> based on your system and operational necessity) is part of being a >> competent sys admin. > > Not on my VMS systems, it isn't. I could write an anti-virus program > for VMS in one line. > Ok, let's see that line. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:22:16 GMT From: "John Vottero" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: "David J Dachtera" wrote in message news:468D84F1.5CF1D7DD@spam.comcast.net... [snip] > >> and some very good >> tecnincal products. They have a good developer program that fully >> supports >> OpenVMS, > > That has been found highly debatable. I have been a member of the Digital/Compaq/HP developer program since it started and I can assure you that it's better now than it was in the Digital days. > >> and on top of that, they have co-marketing programs and other >> benefits. > > ...as long as you sell what HP wants you to sell. HP just covered the cost of a great co-marketing program we did with them and we were selling OpenVMS software. I guess you might still be right, they probably wouldn't have covered the cost if we were selling AIX software. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:27:31 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 07/05/07 11:34, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >> Sent: July 5, 2007 11:19 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> >> Main, Kerry wrote: >>> Because having servers >>> running in peak time with >> >only 5-15% peak utilization is >>> not only embarrassing, but financially >> > unjustifiable. >> >> >> >> >> 1- Please fix your client so it abides by internet standard instead of >> Microsoft standard and breaks lines at between 72 and 78 characters >> per >> line. Having to break your lines because your use Microsoft isn't >> pleasant. >> > > I have now set my client to break at 72 characters (it was 75). Is this > what you were referring to? > > Other than setting the line break, there are no other email options that > I have. But Outlook is still breaking threads. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:24:24 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <7bc93$468e7af8$cef8887a$2909@TEKSAVVY.COM> David J Dachtera wrote: > http://www.cerner.com/ for one. We are a Cerner customer. Our database is > approaching 4TB, 5-node cluster of GS1280s, storage is EMC DMX-II. I'm sure > others here can testify about their installation's size. Just for my education, could you describe the scope that this installation covers ? A single doctor's office ? A single hospital ? A group of hospitals &? (if so, how many) ? Or is this used by some insurance company to manage thir clients's medical records and is accessed by any hospital that has a relationship with that insurance company/HMO/whatever ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:36:21 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: John Vottero wrote: > I have been a member of the Digital/Compaq/HP developer program since it > started and I can assure you that it's better now than it was in the Digital > days. Except it isn't a "VMS" programme now, it is an "IA64" programme. They don't seem interested in supporting VAX and Alpha developpers. And they took out the alpha test drive machines. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:58:41 -0700 From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" Subject: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial console. The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when I plug it in to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is the characters I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the baud rate, bits, parity & stop bits. Any clues? Jeff Coffield ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:45:40 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: <468E71B4.5458B426@spam.comcast.net> "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote: > > I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the > serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial console. > The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when I plug it in > to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is the characters > I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the baud rate, bits, > parity & stop bits. > > Any clues? Does the MSA need to see the modem control signals asserted? (DTR/DSR, CTS/RTS, etc.) -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:01:49 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the > serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial console. > The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when I plug it in > to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is the characters > I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the baud rate, bits, > parity & stop bits. > > Any clues? A short is unlikely; this sounds like something weird with the port. Have you confirmed TT0: is the port you expect it to be? Have you tried connecting into that port using a terminal and terminal emulator, and logged in? Half the battle with serial ports on the Integrity involved sorting out which one was the console (as it varied, based on several factors), and which one wasn't. Once you have something connected, you can SET HOST/DTE into the terminal or the emulator, and you should see characters arriving in the terminal or emulator display window. The Integrity serial connector I was using with the BD25 port on the rx2600 was the H8575-E, and the pinout for most DECconnect adapters is available at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/padapters.html I don't know that the pinout from the MSA1000 is posted anywhere, but you can use a multimeter to probe the adapter wiring and figure that out. From that and from the DECconnect stuff, you can confirm the wiring. (An RJ45 for serial communications? Shudder. Never liked to see that approach, no matter who used it.) -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:06:41 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:45:40 -0700, David J Dachtera wrote: > "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote: >> >> I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the >> serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial console. >> The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when I plug it in >> to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is the characters >> I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the baud rate, bits, >> parity & stop bits. >> >> Any clues? > > Does the MSA need to see the modem control signals asserted? (DTR/DSR, > CTS/RTS, > etc.) > Are you sure the port is TTA0? does SET HOST/SCSI work with MSA devices? -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 12:27:54 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5f6qqaF3b35kbU1@mid.individual.net> In article <468dca0b$0$25492$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout writes: > on 5-7-2007 20:19 Bill Gunshannon wrote... > >> Personally, I have changed my opinion. I, too, think we should bring >> all our troops home. Not just from Iraq and Afghanistan but from Korea, >> Germany, England and everywhere else outside the US. And we should place >> them along the north and south borders and keep all foreigners out of >> the country. Including all those snowbirds with the Quebec license plates >> who live down here 6 months of the year without paying a penny in taxes >> and drive on our highways totally ignoring laws like speed limits!! > > Welcome to the land of the free and the home of the brave. So free and > so brave that you, Bill, like to build fence all around it. Gee, I thought the rest of the world wanted us to stay out of their affairs. And here I am suggesting just that. And keeping them out of ours. > Well, if it > keeps you in... Why bother in the first place? You are already owned by > China anyway. Dream on. China needs our money a lot more than we need their products. We can make shirts here, can China make American dollars? > Ever heard of earning money before spending it? What's that got to do with anything? But as long as we are going to throw stones, ever hear of junkies? > Look at > the USA national balance and redefine bankrupcy. Remember when dollars > used to be real money? Yeah, and if the Europeans hadn't repeatedly defaulted on their war debt every time we bailed them out we would have lot's of money. Maybe we should re-instate all that debt. with interest. > > OK, I admit, I had a bad night, but still, I can't let this > provincialism go by unanswered. Funny thing with the world. You want it both ways. We are either imperialists or provincials. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 08:05:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: RE: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <000101c7bf90$6d98e140$48caa3c0$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > It's a *very* big country, and a free one. Everyone has a right to their > opinion, but it doesn't mean it will ever happen. Heck, we even have a > radical mechanism for getting rid of presidents we don't like, and we > exercise it every four years too! :) Sometimes it seems we insist on waiting 8. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:48:19 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <468E6443.34CFDC5A@spam.comcast.net> Didier_Toulouse wrote: > > HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY to my US Friends ! UFB... Even here we can see how hated the US has become since WWII. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 07:51:23 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Memory problem Message-ID: <$zdmu176Sgah@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1183640295.114913.76000@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, robfindlay@optusnet.com.au writes: > > Could one of the earlier C-library function calls be allocating and > not freeing dynamic memory? > Yes, that is possible. It may be documented behaviour, or a bug. It's also quite possible that you have a heap fragmentation problem, I'd look into that as much more likely. The VMS debugger has heap analysis tools that will help you track this down. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 07:53:29 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Memory problem Message-ID: In article <468CF486.5000505@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Why do you find it necessary to do dynamic memory allocation on a > virtual memory system? There seems to be a tradition among the C/Unix > folks that memory should be allocated dynamically but I've never seen > the point of dynamic allocation for it's own sake. Dynamic memory allocation is usefull on any system where you don't know the data size ahead of time. Its better than writing arrays with arbitrary sizes that might be too small someday. But perhaps the user is reading the entire file into memory and only needs to process fixed size chunks (aka "records"). C programmers seem to make a habit of that. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:52:34 -0700 From: robfindlay@optusnet.com.au Subject: Re: Memory problem Message-ID: <1183729954.188124.148560@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Hi Everyone, Thank you for your useful replies; I didn't get a chance to explore all the various options, but my problem is fixed for now. I did the sums on the amount of memory I was trying to allocate on that "1500th" file. It was a calloc(6000,4.5KB) therefore approximately 27MB in one calloc call. Forgive my limited experience on the VMS platform, but was it totally unrealistic to expect 27MB to be able to allocated in one hit at such a stage in the program (after previously allocating/freeing a lot of dynamic memory earlier in the program) using calloc or LIB$GET_VM? Should I have been using malloc to allocate it one struct at a time, or smaller calloc chunks? Should I have used some of the more advanced LIB$ functions to make it work? Different options when using LIB $CREATE_VM_ZONE? To answer a couple of questions above, I did use LIB$SHOW_VM after each file was processed, it stayed the same with 20KB allocated each time. The delta between the LIB$GET_VM calls and the LIB$FREE_VM calls stayed the same (which represented the bits of code prior to the while {process files} loop. Like I mentioned earlier, this memory is properly allocated if it isn't the "1500th" file, i.e. earlier in the piece. Could this be because the memory wasn't fragmented as much at this point? To investigate how much dynamic memory I could allocate, I wrote a small standalone program: main() { calloc(15000, 4.5KB) } which allocated the memory ok (note: it didn't work when I upped it to 20000, caused by my quota limit? Again, low fragmentation allows this to work in a program with no other dynamic memory allocations? Anyway, to solve the problem I modified the struct that I was allocating memory for so it was reduced to approx 450 bytes or 10% of the original size and the memory allocates fine (the original programmer had a char[4000] array in there that wasn't really necessary). Thanks again for the number and depth of the replies from everyone. If I get a chance, I will investigate further. The Heap Analyser is something I want to get some experience using, but to use it I need the expert at work to set me up with access to DECwindows via an X- Windows program (I login remotely). Thanks again. Any responses to my above questions would help my understanding a bit more. Cheers, Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:36:54 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Memory problem Message-ID: On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 05:53:29 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <468CF486.5000505@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" > writes: >> >> Why do you find it necessary to do dynamic memory allocation on a >> virtual memory system? There seems to be a tradition among the C/Unix >> folks that memory should be allocated dynamically but I've never seen >> the point of dynamic allocation for it's own sake. > > Dynamic memory allocation is usefull on any system where you don't > know the data size ahead of time. Its better than writing arrays > with arbitrary sizes that might be too small someday. > I think that is an important caveat, and speaks against this approach. A technique I have used in compilers for many years is to allocate a big chunk of memory (for the symbol tables and operator stream) and, if and when that runs out, allocate another big hunk, chained as a link list. The objects stored in the space are based structures and their addresses are stored in an array of pointers (also similarly expandable) making for quick access. But that may be overkill in the OP's case since it sounds like once the file is processed it is no longer needed. > But perhaps the user is reading the entire file into memory and > only needs to process fixed size chunks (aka "records"). C > programmers seem to make a habit of that. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:17:06 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Memory problem Message-ID: <3f231$468e7943$cef8887a$2067@TEKSAVVY.COM> robfindlay@optusnet.com.au wrote: > Forgive my limited experience on the VMS platform, but was it totally > unrealistic to expect 27MB to be able to allocated in one hit at such > a stage in the program Mozilla is a lot worse than that... :-( :-( For smaller stuff, I would do a malloc of say 10k and if the data ends up being bigger than 10k, I would use realloc to grow it to 15k. Then, I woudl re-use that memory for the next file and if it was 10k less than previously allocated, I would decrease its size (again with realloc). This way, after processing a potentially huge file, the memory would get reduced if the succeeding files were small. Another possibility to investigate, although I am not sure how it scales to thousands of files processed sequentially is to map a global section to the file. This gives you a pointer in memory and you access the file as if it had already been read in memory. The system takes care of all the virtual memory for you. You then destroy the global section at the end of processing of each file. > To answer a couple of questions above, I did use LIB$SHOW_VM after Note that C (and other languages) allocate large chunks of memory with the system routines, and then manually manage that chunk for the calls to malloc etc. So those calls will not change LIB$SHOW_VM because they don't draw directly from the VMS memory, they draw from a pool or preallocated memory done by the language. BTW, it is the pgfilquo parameter in SYSUAF that limits how much memory you can allocate in a program. If a malloc fails, it is because that quota is too low. While your program is running, from another window, do: SHOW PROC/ID=xxxxxx/CONT and then once the display is up, type the letter Q and you will see your process quotas change every second. You can then see if you are running out of pgflquota. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:05:25 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article , Bill Todd writes: >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >.... > >> Sorry >> >> "; or create new accounts with full user rights" is obviously talking about an >> attacker being able to create fully privileged user accounts. >> It is just expanding on the types of activities that an attacker could >> carry out once they had gained complete control of the system. >> Since one of the list items "view, change, or delete data" is itself a list of >> actions which can be performed on data semi-colons are used to separate the >> list items. The semi-colon is a powerful punctuation mark which is either used >> in complicated lists such as this or to separate closely related but >> independent clauses. >> Neither of those functions would allow the phrase "with full user rights" to >> distribute over all the items in the list. >> >> >> To distribute those words over the list you would need some additional >> punctuation such as >> >> " >> An attacker could then install programs; view, change, or delete data; or >> create new accounts: with full user rights. >> " > >.... > >> You are simply misinterpreting the phrasing. >> >>> What I had in mind was the more common phrasing reflected in MS07-035, >>> where it says "An attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability >>> could take complete control of an affected system" but then clarifies >>> that as follows: "An attacker who successfully exploited this >>> vulnerability could gain the same user rights as the local user. Users >>> whose accounts are configured to have fewer user rights on the system >>> could be less impacted than users who operate with administrative user >>> rights." >>> >> >> I agree Microsoft use this, and the similar phrasing I mentioned above, when >> that is indeed the case. However in this and other cases they do not use that >> phrasing. Instead they clarify that the user could >> "install programs; view, change, or delete data; or create new accounts with >> full user rights". > >You really could do with a bit more humility, David. I admitted that >the phrasing you quote in your last sentence above was subject to >varying interpretations, and you would have been wise to do the same. > You claimed that the last four words "with full user rights" applied to all the preceding list items rather than just the last item which is grammatically incorrect. I admit I hadn't noticed that MS07-035 also used the phrase "An attacker could then install programs; view, change, or delete data; or create new accounts with full user rights". Hence my use of the word "Instead" was misplaced. However it makes no difference to the argument. >Because, you see, MS includes *exactly* the same phrasing (that you >claim immediately above that they do not use) in MS-07-035 (which they >have clarified as I quoted above as meaning in that case only that the >attacker gains the same privileges as the user, and thus only gains >complete control of the system if the user has complete privileges): >see the first paragraph in the FAQ section for MS07-035. > Please point out where in MS07-026 section on the MIME Decoding vulnerability it says anything like " An attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability could gain the same user rights as the local user. users whose accounts are configured to have fewer user rights on the system could be less impacted than users who operate with administrative user rights. " As far as I can see there is NO such clarification. Whether the wording is CAN/COULD or even MAY in the preceding statements makes no difference. There is a possibility that an attacker could take over the complete system. In MS07-035 that possibility is clarified as depending upon the rights of the local user. You cannot just assume that because the other paragraphs are the same that the situation is exactly the same in those security bulletins where no similar clarification exists. Unless you can come up with a statement in MS07-026 which clarifies it in the same manner as " An attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability could gain the same user rights as the local user. users whose accounts are configured to have fewer user rights on the system could be less impacted than users who operate with administrative user rights. " does for MS07-035 then I think that is the end of this discussion. How on earth did I get embroiled in a discussion quibbling over the parsing of a Microsoft Security Bulletin on a parsing bug ??? David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >- bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:22:55 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: I've installed V8.3 on a system and configured TCPIP. However, when I go to use ssh, I get a stack dump. %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual address=000000000000 0000, PC=00000000000EA240, PS=0000001B Improperly handled condition, image exit forced. Signal arguments: Number = 0000000000000005 Name = 000000000000000C 0000000000000000 0000000000000000 00000000000EA240 000000000000001B Register dump: R0 = 0000000000000000 R1 = 0000000000000014 R2 = 0000000000015E80 R3 = 0000000000000000 R4 = 0000000000510B18 R5 = 000000000005AA40 R6 = 0000000000000001 R7 = 000000000005AA40 R8 = 0000000000000001 R9 = 0000000000000000 R10 = 0000000000000001 R11 = 0000000000000000 R12 = 0000000000000001 R13 = 00000000004E8708 R14 = 00000000005199B8 R15 = 0000000000519B60 R16 = 0000000000000000 R17 = 00000000000615E0 R18 = 0000000000060C70 R19 = 0000000000000CF4 R20 = 0000000000015C78 R21 = 0000000000000000 R22 = 0000000000519CA2 R23 = 0000000000000019 R24 = 0000000000021999 R25 = 0000000000000001 R26 = 00000000000FD918 R27 = 0000000000013EA0 R28 = 0000000000000000 R29 = 000000007AE26D50 SP = 000000007AE26D40 PC = 00000000000EA240 PS = 000000000000001B Any suggestions? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:37:24 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: <07070610372467_20227EF1@antinode.org> From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > I've installed V8.3 on a system and configured TCPIP. However, when I > go to use ssh, I get a stack dump. Actual command? "ssh -v [...]" might offer a clue before the explosion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 12:07:39 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > >> I've installed V8.3 on a system and configured TCPIP. However, when I >> go to use ssh, I get a stack dump. > > Actual command? "ssh -v [...]" might offer a clue before the > explosion. I use the SSH client on an Alpha V8.3 system every day, SSH'ing into various platforms (Linux, HP-UX, VMS, etc...) with no problems. -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:17:25 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: In article , brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes: > > >sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: >> From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG >> >>> I've installed V8.3 on a system and configured TCPIP. However, when I >>> go to use ssh, I get a stack dump. >> >> Actual command? "ssh -v [...]" might offer a clue before the >> explosion. > >I use the SSH client on an Alpha V8.3 system every day, SSH'ing into various >platforms (Linux, HP-UX, VMS, etc...) with no problems. Same here! This is a weird one. The ssh*_config. files look to be correct. Strange is that even ssh -h causes this stack dump. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 07:34:59 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: In article <1183655225.179830.79610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: > On 5 Jul, 13:14, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > wrote: >> In article <1183626289.888981.263...@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: >> >> > all >> > OS's despite your assertions to the contrary suffer from security >> > vulnerabilities which may require patching. >> >> Try as you might, you just can't force that to be true in quantity >> as it implies. Design and implemntation are real factors in real >> software and you can't change that by tracking down some of the >> few cases of interest to VMS. > > I am not sure why you think this point is relevant!! > Because it affects my TCO (see thread title). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:48:33 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: > You are assuming what is referred to in this particular product space > as a fault-tolerant configuration. Within the HP product space, this is > the target for the Tandem lock-step configurations -- and lock-step was > added into the Itanium architecture to allow this capability. Based on a couple of pointers received off-line, the lock-step support shown in various of the Itanium processor roadmaps and RAS discussions has apparently (quietly? I certainly missed it) disappeared, and the HP NonStop Integrity servers are now based on bog-standard Itanium processors, albeit with a down-instruction-stream comparator widget called a Logical Synchronization Unit (LSU) and apparently some associated supporting software/firmware. Various of the existing RAS feature lists referenced around the 'net apparently haven't been updated, or are now assuming this out-board widgetry as part of the RAS support. As for the Integrity NonStop discussions, I've tossed up a few pointers in the RAS section of the web site at ; I've updated the RAS list. I'm gathering materials for and writing a related article -- not on NSK, but on the lock-step materials and on a clever approach toward this that could potentially/conceivably be used with largely arbitrary operating systems, if it works out -- and will have that posted to the web site in a day or so. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:42:05 -0700 From: BaxterD@tessco.com Subject: Re: Upgrading Firmware on Itanium FC cards. Message-ID: <1183736525.362771.100990@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 9:34 am, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > On Thu, Jul 05, 2007 at 06:21:05AM -0700, Tom Linden wrote: > > On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 04:18:27 -0700, Anton Shterenlikht > > > >4. Then put cd in, > > >5. maybe you need to do "map -r" from EFI shell > > >6. from EFI prompt do fs0: and finally do > > >7. fs0:\> fcd_update4 > > >8. fs0:\> reset > > > >that worked for us > > >anton > > > Wouldn't it have been easier to upgrade on an alpha then pop it into your > > IA64 box? > > I'm not sure I understand you. How exactly would I do that? > The firmware is upgrade utility on IA64 is to be run from EFI. Even if > could put the upgrade files on alpha, how would I upgrade the hba on > integrity? > > -- > Anton Shterenlikht > Room 2.6, Queen's Building > Mech Eng Dept > Bristol University > University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK > Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 > Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 I agree with Anton about the problems associated with creating/using a CD to do this upgrade. I used an alternative approach -- a "Thumb" drive, or "Zip" drive (choose your own name). I used a cheap HP givaway, 64MB thumb drive. 1. Place in PC. 2. Download Firmware Zip File. 3. Extract contents into folder on Thumb Drive. 4. Insert thumb drive into Itanium USB port. 5. From the EFI shell, navigate to the Thumbdrive folder. 6. Run the fcd_update4 program. 7. Reset the system. Done Dave. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 09:06:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Message-ID: In article , "John Vottero" writes: > > Microsoft looked at DCL, Bash, Perl etc, etc, took the best aspects of each > and came up with PowerShell. HP needs to replace DCL if it wants VMS to > stay competitive. > > If you're interested, more PowerShell information is available here: > > http://www.microsoft.com/PowerShell > WARNING: I just tried that. Downloaded the version for Windows XP SP 2 x86 on my Windows XP SP2 Centrino. It caused the system to crash during login. I had to get into safe mode and restore from the last restore point (PowerShell did not show up as a removable component under software or under Windows components). Now, what was Bill saying about properly admin'ed Windows being reliable and useable? _NO_ other OS I've ever used crashed after I loaded the supported version of some software. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:43:08 GMT From: "John Vottero" Subject: Re: WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Message-ID: "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:xvLIljUm7MjN@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article , "John > Vottero" writes: >> >> Microsoft looked at DCL, Bash, Perl etc, etc, took the best aspects of >> each >> and came up with PowerShell. HP needs to replace DCL if it wants VMS to >> stay competitive. >> >> If you're interested, more PowerShell information is available here: >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/PowerShell >> > > WARNING: I just tried that. Downloaded the version for Windows XP > SP 2 x86 on my Windows XP SP2 Centrino. It caused the system to > crash during login. That's strange. PowerShell doesn't run during boot or login so I can't imagine what was going wrong. Are you sure that Windows Update didn't slip in some other "critical update"? > > I had to get into safe mode and restore from the last restore point > (PowerShell did not show up as a removable component under software > or under Windows components). It's a Windows Update, make sure the "Show Updates" checkbox is checked and then PowerShell will be hidden in the hundreds of "Security update for Windows XP" entries. > > Now, what was Bill saying about properly admin'ed Windows being > reliable and useable? _NO_ other OS I've ever used crashed after > I loaded the supported version of some software. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:42:07 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: In article , Chris Sharman wrote: > >> I've got an old application which accepts orders via tagged text input > >> files. > >> Something like: > >> > >> _order_1001 > >> _product_ab10 > >> _quantity_30 > >> _ink_Black > >> _name_Mr Jones > >> etc... > >> > >> I've looked at updating it to handle xml a number of times, but I've > >> looked at the available parsers in the past (expat etc), and got > >> nowhere. > > As I recall, I couldn't get expat to compile - did it require gcc rather > than decc? Interesting that Bob recommends the hp offering, but Hoff > couldn't get it to work. I grabbed the latest version of expat from http://sourceforge.net/projects/expat/ and it compiled fine on VMS 8.3 (up to date with ECOs). See the file [.vms]README.vms in the distribution for compilation instructions. Documentation can be found in [.doc]reference.html FWIW, the downloadable file came as expat-2.0.1.tar.gz - To save mucking around on the VMS side, I unpacked it on my Mac and built a zip file there; then used unzip on on that on VMS. From my reading of the website, the hp offering only supports Java and C++; Unfortunate if you don't have a C++ compiler and don't want to go the Java route. > Suggests that I'm not the only one struggling. > There seem to be a lot of different ways to achieve the same thing with > xml (xslt, sax, dom, ...) and pretty thin documentation on all of them. And all the examples I have found are in C, not 100% helpful for those wishing to use another language. > Sounds like my best bet might be libxslt, preprocessing the xml into my > 'legacy' format, then feeding into the original program. Any reason why libxslt in particular? > Possibly a DTD to specify the new format to business partners. > -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:32:18 -0400 From: ChrisSharman Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: Paul Sture asked: > Why libxslt? Well, I chose libxml because Hoff says it works, I've had problems in the past with expat, and Hoff reports problems with the HP offering. I'm on VMS 7.3-1, so the HP offering would be unsupported anyway, and a success on 8.3 with expat doesn't prove it will work for me on 7.3-1. Why xslt? No reason, except that it avoids me tinkering with legacy code, and because there are too many choices - the job becomes much easier once I narrow them down - unless of course I choose wrong! Do you think xslt is a bad choice? Thanks Chris -- ChrisSharman ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ChrisSharman's Profile: http://techiegroups.com/member.php?userid=5732 View this thread: http://www.techiegroups.com/showthread.php?t=134882 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:39:33 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: ChrisSharman wrote: > Paul Sture asked: >> Why libxslt? > > Well, I chose libxml because Hoff says it works, I've had problems in > the past with expat, and Hoff reports problems with the HP offering. > I'm on VMS 7.3-1, so the HP offering would be unsupported anyway, and a > success on 8.3 with expat doesn't prove it will work for me on 7.3-1. The port on V8 Freeware should get you going. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware80/libxml2-2_6_24/ If you want to port forward, it's a trip through the DIFFERENCES, and mayhap a tweak in the build file. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware80/hoffman_examples/diff_directories.com Various folks including myself and JFP have been porting this stuff, so there's the potential that somebody may well have ported over a more recent version. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:39:03 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: > You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the > documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. I got caught by the same thing. The references to XMODEM are how to download the kermit executable onto your VMS machine to get started. And I think that XMODEM may be supported on the windows version. But it didn't appear to be on VMS. I found some "VMODEM" software which required some editing and function prototype declaration to compile (as well as checking of a 3 character array being used as integer for terminal characteristics) and it SEEMED to work. Spend 45 minutes downloading the image file for the switch only to find the file to be corrupt. (a number of kilobytes bigger). I then changed the "open" statement to add ctx=bin ctx=stm and got the transfer going and this time, the file difference was < 512 bytes and the switch was able to reboot. I think VMS engineers should have really set a very strong strandard for "binary" files on VMS from day 1 so that all apps that deal with file transfer of binary files would have used that. When you have a file of 1473 bytes, you should be reading only 1473 bytes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:16:16 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: In article <4d87a$468db818$cef8887a$612@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: > Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial > console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. > > At this time of the night, I cannot find an alpha executable for XMODEM > on the net. This should really be in the freeware. In fact, it should > come with VMS as a basic application. > > I realise that those IA64 things probably don't have serial ports. But > there are still a lot of devices out there that have a serial port for > emergency core software procedures (just as loading raw software back > onto a router/switch). > > (I don't feel like installing fortran and then debugging the circa 1985 > version of XMODEM that worked on VAX, so I will have to physically move > the switch to the vax and use it there). VEST it? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:05:10 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <1183716310.379175.302940@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 6, 3:39 am, JF Mezei wrote: > johnhreinha...@yahoo.com wrote: > > You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the > > documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. > > I got caught by the same thing. The references to XMODEM are how to > download the kermit executable onto your VMS machine to get started. And > I think that XMODEM may be supported on the windows version. But it > didn't appear to be on VMS. > > I found some "VMODEM" software which required some editing and function > prototype declaration to compile (as well as checking of a 3 character > array being used as integer for terminal characteristics) and it SEEMED > to work. Spend 45 minutes downloading the image file for the switch only > to find the file to be corrupt. (a number of kilobytes bigger). I then > changed the "open" statement to add ctx=bin ctx=stm and got the transfer > going and this time, the file difference was < 512 bytes and the switch > was able to reboot. > > I think VMS engineers should have really set a very strong strandard for > "binary" files on VMS from day 1 so that all apps that deal with file > transfer of binary files would have used that. When you have a file of > 1473 bytes, you should be reading only 1473 bytes. JF, There is and always were embracive standards for binary files, dating back to the days of the RSX-11 family. The problem is that many outside systems (e.g., those that are not VMS or RSX-11 family) have very loose definitions. When transferring files using programs designed for other platforms, the lack of standardization in the outside world is what you are seeing. Please note that C-Kermit (in LABELED file mode), the VMS enhanced FTPs, and last but not least DECnet, have absolutely no problems transferring binary files with full fidelity. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:40:03 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <468E5443.9000706@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: > >> You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the >> documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. > > > I got caught by the same thing. The references to XMODEM are how to > download the kermit executable onto your VMS machine to get started. And > I think that XMODEM may be supported on the windows version. But it > didn't appear to be on VMS. > > I found some "VMODEM" software which required some editing and function > prototype declaration to compile (as well as checking of a 3 character > array being used as integer for terminal characteristics) and it SEEMED > to work. Spend 45 minutes downloading the image file for the switch only > to find the file to be corrupt. (a number of kilobytes bigger). I then > changed the "open" statement to add ctx=bin ctx=stm and got the transfer > going and this time, the file difference was < 512 bytes and the switch > was able to reboot. > > I think VMS engineers should have really set a very strong strandard for > "binary" files on VMS from day 1 so that all apps that deal with file > transfer of binary files would have used that. When you have a file of > 1473 bytes, you should be reading only 1473 bytes. Depending on how you create the file, the system should be able to figure out where it ends! If you tell it "fixed length 512 byte records", it will read 512 byte records until it comes to the end of the file. I dimly recall that you can have Unix style files without "records" and of some random length. It has been many years since I've done it and pardon me for being to lazy to look it up. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:35:06 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <07070609350677_20227EF1@antinode.org> From: JF Mezei > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: > > You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the > > documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. > I got caught by the same thing. The references to XMODEM are how to > download the kermit executable onto your VMS machine to get started. And > I think that XMODEM may be supported on the windows version. But it > didn't appear to be on VMS. http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/faq-c-ext.html Kermit (when built with "CK_XYZ" defined) can (with a SET PROTOCOL XMODEM command, for example) use external programs which provide the non-Kermit protocols, but you still need a suitable external program, and it seems to use UNIX pipes, and I/O redirection, and the like, which are not enabled on VMS. So, in short, Kermit could, in principle, be useful for this sort of thing, but not as-shipped, and not without some VMS-specific work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:46:10 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2007, JF Mezei wrote: > Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial > console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. I know this is off-topic, but I am somewhat amazed that this thing has XMODEM built into its ROM. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:54:30 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <468E65B6.4F6E0443@spam.comcast.net> "P. Sture" wrote: > > In article <4d87a$468db818$cef8887a$612@TEKSAVVY.COM>, > JF Mezei wrote: > > > Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial > > console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. > > > > At this time of the night, I cannot find an alpha executable for XMODEM > > on the net. This should really be in the freeware. In fact, it should > > come with VMS as a basic application. > > > > I realise that those IA64 things probably don't have serial ports. But > > there are still a lot of devices out there that have a serial port for > > emergency core software procedures (just as loading raw software back > > onto a router/switch). > > > > (I don't feel like installing fortran and then debugging the circa 1985 > > version of XMODEM that worked on VAX, so I will have to physically move > > the switch to the vax and use it there). > > VEST it? WRQ once had a VMS version of both VRZ (X/Y/Zmodem receive) and VSZ (X/Y/Zmodem send) for VAX on their FTP site. Dunno if these can still be found via Attachmate. I tried VESTing these a while back but was unable to produce anything usable. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:02:45 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <07070611024570_20227EF1@antinode.org> From: Rob Brown > On Thu, 5 Jul 2007, JF Mezei wrote: > > Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial > > console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. > I know this is off-topic, but I am somewhat amazed that this thing has > XMODEM built into its ROM. Cisco seemed to like it. For example, my Cisco 678 DSL gizmo gets its firmware using Xmodem. I've just fired up an old Mac when I've needed to load it. (Some old terminal emulator program offers it. Perhaps Zterm?) A Google search for: xmodem cisco finds many more examples. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:35:35 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial > console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. What sort of switch is this, and what does the switch vendor say to do when an emergency reload is required, and is it feasible to replace this existing switch with a commodity switch? > At this time of the night, I cannot find an alpha executable for XMODEM > on the net. This should really be in the freeware. In fact, it should > come with VMS as a basic application. You're certainly welcome to participate in the open-source community, and to port over and update the xmodem code for use on OpenVMS. > I realise that those IA64 things probably don't have serial ports. One and sometimes two serial connections, and -- like your "MAC" -- USB-based serial devices are also an available for OpenVMS I64 on Integrity servers. > But > there are still a lot of devices out there that have a serial port for > emergency core software procedures (just as loading raw software back > onto a router/switch). Yep, though these are usually now reserved for manufacturing and diagnostics. And most now use slip or ppp or a specific (re)loader tool. Or the tools can be reflashed over a network or USB. > (I don't feel like installing fortran and then debugging the circa 1985 > version of XMODEM that worked on VAX, so I will have to physically move > the switch to the vax and use it there). Autoschadenfreude isn't a word I'd contemplated before now. I haven't used nor needed xmodem, ymodem, zmodem or other such since, well, twenty years ago. The last I dealt with any semi-related tools was when the CMU folks asked to have Kermit removed from the Freeware, and that was back around V5.0 or so -- kermit was far better known and far more widely used than it is now. http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ Interestingly, xmodem is apparently at least the same and -- depending on how you date stuff -- probably older than OpenVMS itself. xmodem dates to 1977 or so. It's feasible to use the test-drive systems to at least compile and build the code, too. As for options... VAXnet claims xmodem support: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware40/VAXNET/ To unpack the zoo files: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware40/SIGTAPE_STUFF/sysmgr/decompress_tools.zip Some of the Windows terminal emulators also have xmodem capability. Oh, and the following sites surfaced: http://www.techfest.com/hardware/modem/xymodem.htm http://web.mit.edu/6.115/www/miscfiles/amulet/amulet-help/xmodem.htm http://www.totse.com/en/technology/telecommunications/xmodem.html Oh, and Kermit once appeared capable of this transfer, see: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ftp/c-kermit/ckurzsz.ini More recently, it appears that the available implementations are licensed external protocol products: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/faq-c-ext.html Or go port the Fortran (which should be trivial), and present it as a submission for the next (assuming there is one) Freeware distribution. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2007 11:40:24 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: In article <468E5443.9000706@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > JF Mezei wrote: >> johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>> You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the >>> documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. >> >> >> I got caught by the same thing. The references to XMODEM are how to >> download the kermit executable onto your VMS machine to get started. And >> I think that XMODEM may be supported on the windows version. But it >> didn't appear to be on VMS. >> >> I found some "VMODEM" software which required some editing and function >> prototype declaration to compile (as well as checking of a 3 character >> array being used as integer for terminal characteristics) and it SEEMED >> to work. Spend 45 minutes downloading the image file for the switch only >> to find the file to be corrupt. (a number of kilobytes bigger). I then >> changed the "open" statement to add ctx=bin ctx=stm and got the transfer >> going and this time, the file difference was < 512 bytes and the switch >> was able to reboot. >> >> I think VMS engineers should have really set a very strong strandard for >> "binary" files on VMS from day 1 so that all apps that deal with file >> transfer of binary files would have used that. When you have a file of >> 1473 bytes, you should be reading only 1473 bytes. > > Depending on how you create the file, the system should be able to > figure out where it ends! If you tell it "fixed length 512 byte > records", it will read 512 byte records until it comes to the end of the > file. I dimly recall that you can have Unix style files without > "records" and of some random length. It has been many years since I've > done it and pardon me for being to lazy to look it up. The usual convention for binary files on VMS (used by various file transfer programs such as FTP, ZIP and Reflection is with 512 byte fixed length records as you note. On the face of things, this would seem to mean that there would be no way to encode a binary file of, for instance, exactly 1473 bytes. Fortunately, in addition to the file header field that records the block number where the file ends, there is another field that records the byte offset of the first free byte in the end-of-file block (FAT$W_FFBYTE). By convention, binary file transfer programs that use the fixed length 512 byte record format will set FAT$W_FFBYTE when importing a file into VMS and will look at FAT$W_FFBYTE when exporting a file from VMS. If you start with a 1473 byte file, you do indeed end up with a 1473 byte file when using decent file transfer tools. It's not clear to what extent a copy of Xmodem written in C for a Windows environment counts as "decent" when recompiled to run on VMS where files simply are not properly modelled as streams of bytes. Of course, file formats other than fixed_512 are sometimes used. Stream, Stream_LF and Undefined record formats might be chosen. In my experience, fixed length 512 byte records is far and away the most popular choice. If you're using the VMS system only as intermediate storage, the choice of binary file representation doesn't matter much. You could bring a file in using NFS and have it on disk in Stream_LF format. And you could then ship it out with binary FTP and the correct stream of bytes would result. Or you could bring the file in with binary FTP and have it on disk in Fixed_512 format. And you could then serve it out with NFS and have a Unix client see the correct stream of bytes. Or, as in the case at hand, one should be able to import a file into VMS using binary FTP (from cisco.com) and export it using xmodem and not worry overmuch about which particular binary file format was used on disk on the VMS platform. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:43:41 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <468E713D.BBE380C6@spam.comcast.net> Rob Brown wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2007, JF Mezei wrote: > > > Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial > > console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. > > I know this is off-topic, but I am somewhat amazed that this thing has > XMODEM built into its ROM. Based on JF's posts, I believe he is running some gear that pre-dates TFTP and kin. Our friend at Omen Technology was busy man at one time... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:57:54 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: >johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: >> You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the >> documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. > >I got caught by the same thing. The references to XMODEM are how to >download the kermit executable onto your VMS machine to get started. And >I think that XMODEM may be supported on the windows version. But it >didn't appear to be on VMS. > >I found some "VMODEM" software which required some editing and function >prototype declaration to compile (as well as checking of a 3 character >array being used as integer for terminal characteristics) and it SEEMED >to work. Spend 45 minutes downloading the image file for the switch only >to find the file to be corrupt. (a number of kilobytes bigger). I then >changed the "open" statement to add ctx=bin ctx=stm and got the transfer >going and this time, the file difference was < 512 bytes and the switch >was able to reboot. > There is a ZMODEM for VMS. If you can't find it elsewhere you can get it from ftp://www.axp.mdx.ac.uk/VMS/ZMODEM.ZIP The hp freeware page http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/freeware/freeware.html also seems to have a link to a zmodem for VMS at ftp://ftp.cs.pdx.edu/pub/zmodem And a quick check also seems to show that zmodem is on the Freeware v4.0 according to the abstract at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/freeware/freeware40/freeware/00freeware_abstract.txt David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >I think VMS engineers should have really set a very strong strandard for >"binary" files on VMS from day 1 so that all apps that deal with file >transfer of binary files would have used that. When you have a file of >1473 bytes, you should be reading only 1473 bytes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:01:35 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: Bob Gezelter wrote: > Please note that C-Kermit (in LABELED file mode), the VMS enhanced > FTPs, and last but not least DECnet, have absolutely no problems > transferring binary files with full fidelity. Any program which uses the fixed length 512 byte *record* format for binary file has a potential problem in that depending on how you read that file again, you may get 512 bytes in the last RECORD you read instead of the number of bytes to the end of file. Binary files should have been standardised as "undefined" on VMS or some other tag that can garantee that all accesses will provide all of and nothing but the raw data even if you use a high level language's io routines. the xmodem was doing a "open(filename,0)" and that resulted in a corrupt file at the other end, even though the source file was that fixed 512 record size format. I had to add options to the open routine (extra arguments supported on VMS) to make it read properly. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:15:11 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: Rob Brown wrote: > I know this is off-topic, but I am somewhat amazed that this thing has > XMODEM built into its ROM. There was some seriously weird stuff done twenty or thirty years ago, and there are still a few commercial vendors (eg: Omen) offering xmodem for this sort of basic situation. At the just-slightly-past-dumb end of the product spectrum, something like xmodem is an option. (Here, having a NIC, it's certainly rather weird that it would not have and use a network connection, and use something like tftp to re-load itself.) xmodem is pretty simple-minded and reasonably fast, and C and Fortran versions of the transfer code are available, and has reasonably good error capabilities. It'll likely fit into an ancient or dinky ROM, too. And it wouldn't be the first time that some random firmware engineer implemented a weird interface. Classic "intelligent" factory floor controllers and some of the hardware diagnostic interfaces on various peripherals had some of the most creative-weird serial interfaces I've ever encountered. Since this interface doesn't get visited by the sane, it's fair game for the weird. Now as for somebody that implements this stuff in more modern gear, I'd hope that the widget had a failsafe loader. This switch apparently doesn't. This to avoid the support calls and costs if (when?) the firmware manages to stomp on itself. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:27:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <51745$468e7ba3$cef8887a$2909@TEKSAVVY.COM> Rob Brown wrote: > I know this is off-topic, but I am somewhat amazed that this thing has > XMODEM built into its ROM. Except for an el-cheapo DSL modem I have has backup, I have seen plenty of telecom equipment which has XMODEM as "last resort" to load its firmware via the serial port. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:44:59 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <1d0a6$468e7fdb$cef8887a$20451@TEKSAVVY.COM> briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > Or, as in the case at hand, one should be able to import a file into > VMS using binary FTP (from cisco.com) and export it using xmodem > and not worry overmuch about which particular binary file format > was used on disk on the VMS platform. That was exactly the problem. The XMODEM software did a simple "open" statement which in VMS has RMS implications and processing and this resulted ina very corrupted file on the switch. I had to add options to that open statement to force it to not interpret lf/cr it finds in this binary data. The point is that on VMS, one needs to ALWAYS worry about whether a binary file will make it intact or not. Another example: (which I have to do more investigation) on the cisco switch: COPY flash:config.text tftp://10.0.0.11/switch1/config.text followed by COPY tftp://10.0.0.11/switch1/config.text flash:config.text results in a corrupted file. The VMS file is stored as a fixed512 file, but when being sent back, the LFs in it get mangled (probably due to logical records (aka: text lines) spanning end of blocks). Doing a SET FILE CONFIG.TEXT/ATTRIB=(RFM=STMLF,RAT=NONE) not only allows me to edit the config.text on VMS but safely send it back to the switch ! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:47:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <789f7$468e8088$cef8887a$20451@TEKSAVVY.COM> David J Dachtera wrote: > Based on JF's posts, I believe he is running some gear that pre-dates TFTP and > kin. The switch's software supports TFTP once it is running. XMODEM is for when the firmware won't load due to corruption. Think of it as XMODEM being supported at the >>> mode on an alpha. When a swicth doesn't have its software, it doesn't know about IP, ethernet etc. It only knows about its serial port. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.366 ************************