INFO-VAX Wed, 11 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 376 Contents: Curly gets a new job Re: Curly gets a new job Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: Decnet Plus Problem Re: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? RE: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Linksys says I need a Windows machine to update my firmware Re: Linksys says I need a Windows machine to update my firmware Re: Linksys says I need a Windows machine to update my firmware Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Tier3 Hobbyist License Now Available Re: VMS Cluster Questions Re: VMS Cluster Questions Re: VMS Cluster Questions Re: VMS Cluster Questions Re: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:09:31 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Curly gets a new job Message-ID: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aohAtklAzHE8 ``Michael has a strong track record for vision, innovation and value creation'' http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20070711/bs_bw/jul2007tc20070710661991;_ylt=Avu87 zIBbQ32.yI4w1l8AKjMWM0F "Earlier, he patched up a troubled Compaq Computer and sold it to Hewlett-Packard ...." Excuse me while I throw up. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:51:14 -0700 From: David Mathog Subject: Re: Curly gets a new job Message-ID: John Smith wrote: > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aohAtklAzHE8 > > ``Michael has a strong track record for vision, innovation and value > creation'' Actually, he has a strong record of slapping on a coat of paint, selling the "improved" company to someone gullible, and then quickly moving on. > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20070711/bs_bw/jul2007tc20070710661991;_ylt=Avu87 > zIBbQ32.yI4w1l8AKjMWM0F > > "Earlier, he patched up a troubled Compaq Computer and sold it to > Hewlett-Packard ...." > The second part of that sentence is 100% accurate. > > Excuse me while I throw up. Move over. Regards, David Mathog ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 05:52:52 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: In article <4694394A.7060709@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Pierre wrote: >> On Jul 11, 12:59 am, Pierre wrote: >> >>>On Jul 11, 12:19 am, Peter Weaver >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Jul 10, 5:54 pm, Pierre wrote: >>> >>>>>... >>>>>I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ >>>>>directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto >>>>>it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will >>>>>always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but >>>>>... >>>> >>>>MOUNT/BIND should take care of your problem. You will end up with one >>>>large logical disk. Type in HELP MOUNT/BIND for more information. >>> >>>>Peter Weaverwww.weaverconsulting.ca >>>>CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial >>>>Hardware >>> >>>thanks. I'm at home right now and can not check the help. is MOUNT/ >>>BIND available in 7.2-1 ? >> >> >> oups... ignore this silly question... I should go to sleep (1:40 AM) >> >> anyway, I never used volume sets. what happens if one of the disks >> craches ? do I lost all the data on the whole volume set or only on >> the faulty disk ? >> >> TIA, >> Pierre >> > > If a member of a bound volume set crashes, you lose your data. A bound > volume set behaves like a single big disk and a file may have pieces on > any or all members of the set. If the root member of the volume set crashes, you lose access to all your data. The [000000] directory on the root volume serves as the top level directory for the entire set. Most of your files are still there, but they are effectively "lost files" since the top level directory in which they were catalogued is toast. If a non-root member of the volume set crashes you lose the files on that volume. For files with extents on multiple volumes you will lose the pieces of those files that reside on the lost volume. And, most importantly, you will lose any directories on the lost volume. In a bound volume set the directory files are spread across the volumes just like any other file. You can potentially find yourself with [CHOCOLATE.CAKE]LAYER1.DAT on volume 4 with an extension header on volume 5 [CHOCOLATE]CAKE.DIR is on volume 3 [000000]CHOCOLATE.DIR is on volume 2 [000000]000000.DIR is on volume 1 > You should not create a bound volume set without being aware of the hazards. Yes. An search list that is periodically rotated would seem to be a better fit to the OP's problem. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:55:04 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <4694D328.3010802@comcast.net> briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article <4694394A.7060709@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>Pierre wrote: >> >>>On Jul 11, 12:59 am, Pierre wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Jul 11, 12:19 am, Peter Weaver >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Jul 10, 5:54 pm, Pierre wrote: >>>> >>>>>>... >>>>>>I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ >>>>>>directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto >>>>>>it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will >>>>>>always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but >>>>>>... >>>>> >>>>>MOUNT/BIND should take care of your problem. You will end up with one >>>>>large logical disk. Type in HELP MOUNT/BIND for more information. >>>> >>>>>Peter Weaverwww.weaverconsulting.ca >>>>>CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial >>>>>Hardware >>>> >>>>thanks. I'm at home right now and can not check the help. is MOUNT/ >>>>BIND available in 7.2-1 ? >>> >>> >>>oups... ignore this silly question... I should go to sleep (1:40 AM) >>> >>>anyway, I never used volume sets. what happens if one of the disks >>>craches ? do I lost all the data on the whole volume set or only on >>>the faulty disk ? >>> >>>TIA, >>>Pierre >>> >> >>If a member of a bound volume set crashes, you lose your data. A bound >>volume set behaves like a single big disk and a file may have pieces on >>any or all members of the set. > > > If the root member of the volume set crashes, you lose access to all > your data. The [000000] directory on the root volume serves as the > top level directory for the entire set. > > Most of your files are still there, but they are effectively "lost files" > since the top level directory in which they were catalogued is toast. > > If a non-root member of the volume set crashes you lose the files on > that volume. For files with extents on multiple volumes you will lose > the pieces of those files that reside on the lost volume. And, most > importantly, you will lose any directories on the lost volume. > For my purposes and, I believe, most other people's purposes, losing a piece of a file due to a disk crash is nearly as bad as losing the whole file. It means a restore from backup and, most likely, losing any updates made since the last backup. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:02:50 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <1184166170.188020.280390@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On 11 Jul, 13:55, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > > In article <4694394A.7060...@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >>Pierre wrote: > > >>>On Jul 11, 12:59 am, Pierre wrote: > > >>>>On Jul 11, 12:19 am, Peter Weaver > >>>>wrote: > > >>>>>On Jul 10, 5:54 pm, Pierre wrote: > > >>>>>>... > >>>>>>I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > >>>>>>directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > >>>>>>it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > >>>>>>always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but > >>>>>>... > > >>>>>MOUNT/BIND should take care of your problem. You will end up with one > >>>>>large logical disk. Type in HELP MOUNT/BIND for more information. > > >>>>>Peter Weaverwww.weaverconsulting.ca > >>>>>CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial > >>>>>Hardware > > >>>>thanks. I'm at home right now and can not check the help. is MOUNT/ > >>>>BIND available in 7.2-1 ? > > >>>oups... ignore this silly question... I should go to sleep (1:40 AM) > > >>>anyway, I never used volume sets. what happens if one of the disks > >>>craches ? do I lost all the data on the whole volume set or only on > >>>the faulty disk ? > > >>>TIA, > >>>Pierre > > >>If a member of a bound volume set crashes, you lose your data. A bound > >>volume set behaves like a single big disk and a file may have pieces on > >>any or all members of the set. > > > If the root member of the volume set crashes, you lose access to all > > your data. The [000000] directory on the root volume serves as the > > top level directory for the entire set. > > > Most of your files are still there, but they are effectively "lost files" > > since the top level directory in which they were catalogued is toast. > > > If a non-root member of the volume set crashes you lose the files on > > that volume. For files with extents on multiple volumes you will lose > > the pieces of those files that reside on the lost volume. And, most > > importantly, you will lose any directories on the lost volume. > > For my purposes and, I believe, most other people's purposes, losing a > piece of a file due to a disk crash is nearly as bad as losing the whole > file. It means a restore from backup and, most likely, losing any > updates made since the last backup. > > - Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Agreed. For this, I'd use a search list for reads but probably use the physical disk device for the writes to be able to balance out the traffic manually. We tend to switch directory files round overnight so that lots of little log files and temp. files get spread round the directories. There's no reason why that couldn't be done with disk volumes - use a system-wide logical name for the device and then switch that round each night: $ define/system disk$data dka100: $ define/system searchlist dka100:[000000...],dka200: [000000...],dka300:[000000...] Then use logic to switch it round the following night so that disk $data is dka200: and the search list is bounced round one space. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:41:39 -0700 From: Hibby1 Subject: Re: Decnet Plus Problem Message-ID: <1184139699.440972.183440@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On 10 Jul, 09:41, IanMiller wrote: > reached max number of processes, or non-paged pool, or paged pool? It's Ok I've cracked it...I had a file that ran at midnight (hence the 10+ hours uptime) each night that couldn't send mail to itself or others over the network.. Thanx anyway... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:59:48 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: In article <001b01c7c35e$73ca04f0$5b5e0ed0$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: Hi Paul, Please note that I have rejigged your message to avoid "top posting". Interleaving answers with the original post makes for better comprehension, particularly for those reading with non-GUI news readers. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ken Fairfield wrote: > > > Remember, EVE means "Easy/Extensible/Efficient VMS Editor". ;-) > > Ah- I did not know that was what it stood for at all. Interesting. :) > > Has anyone perhaps adapted it for primay use on a laptop keyboard? On OS X, I use the iTerm terminal emulator. This successfully mimics the numeric keypad on a Mac laptop in conjunction with the Numlock key. It's a pain, but it does work. What I also do is have an eve command file, to make life easier when you can't get at certain function keys. At the minimum I tend to have: DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-D DO DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-F FIND Or, as John suggests, learn TECO. In the default mode of operation, you can use it on any old junk:-) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:32:56 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: In article , glen herrmannsfeldt writes: > FredK wrote: > > (snip) > >> ESC is another of these legacy keys. It is a prefix for a sequence of >> following characters - not meant to be a standalone input key in ANSI... >> but too many UNIX applications used the key for specific termination or >> interruption useage. So applications that parsed input data using ANSI >> rules get screwed up. > > I would have said it was DEC that started using ESC but maybe that is > because I used it on DEC systems (such as TECO escape) before unix. > Yes, back in our PDP-10 days we all had to set up editor init files so that TECO would accept ALTMODE for ESCAPE on our TTYs. But UNIX was already around. Maybe Larry knows whether TECO is older or UNIX (1968)? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:38:06 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: In article <5fib9mF3cg0k3U1@mid.individual.net>, Ken Fairfield writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> help edit /tpu /command >> >> You probably want to define tpu$command. > > While that is one option, it involves knowing at least a minimal > amount of the TPU language (which I know Bob does :-). > Yeah, I should have pointed to the EVE file for what the OP asked. If I had thought about it for a minute, I'd have realised he wanted to execute an EVE command, not a TPU command. Or just selecting the EDT keypad as otehrs posted probably meets his need. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:43:40 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <8M427uiCZs1R@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <000101c7c379$c8a03470$59e09d50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > I thought TECO was a line oriented editor used for batch processing, like > SED? I'll look at it and build it just for fun if I can find it. Probably > won't handle 3270 screens, but how about z/Linux running under z/VM? Have to > get one of you guys to login and test it out though! :) > No. TECO is more like a character oriented editor than a line oriented editor. It is capable of running just fine on hard copy terminals, but it wouldn't be my first choice for batch. There was also a set of TECO macros called TV that we used on our PDP-10 that made TECO a full-screen editor on VT52. Never did learn that very will. Survived with TOPS-20 EDIT (an SOS clone) until DEC put EDT on TOPS-20. Ah, they days. EDT on VMS, EDT on RSX-11M, and EDT on TOPS-20. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:03:00 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: <5fkgq5F3bv13uU1@mid.individual.net> P. Sture wrote: > In article <001b01c7c35e$73ca04f0$5b5e0ed0$@com>, > "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > Please note that I have rejigged your message to avoid "top posting". > Interleaving answers with the original post makes for better > comprehension, particularly for those reading with non-GUI news readers. > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ken Fairfield wrote: >>> Remember, EVE means "Easy/Extensible/Efficient VMS Editor". ;-) >> Ah- I did not know that was what it stood for at all. Interesting. :) >> >> Has anyone perhaps adapted it for primay use on a laptop keyboard? > > On OS X, I use the iTerm terminal emulator. This successfully mimics the > numeric keypad on a Mac laptop in conjunction with the Numlock key. It's > a pain, but it does work. > > What I also do is have an eve command file, to make life easier when you > can't get at certain function keys. At the minimum I tend to have: > > DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-D DO > DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-F FIND [...] Since I have often been in the position of working on a "foreign" system, or on another user's PC, where I don't have my TPU section and/or I don't have an LK4xx keyboard, I found the most valuable key to know is Ctrl/B. I use Ctrl/B as a "dirty DO". :-) For Paul, Ctrl/B is mapped to EVE's RECALL command. It gets you the last/previous command line (initially, a GET FILE from starting the editor) which can then be edited at will. Use Ctrl/X to erase the old command line (without having to delete the old command character by character, etc.) and type in whatever new command you want, e.g., FIND or EXIT. -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:14:40 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: <1184163280.342678.176190@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 9:52 pm, Sue wrote: > Dear Newsgroup, > > Please feel free to share with anyone and everyone. It would be nice > to see the YouTube version get as many hits as the HP ETV copy. > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI > > There are over 4,600 views, 8 comments and most of them about VMS. > > Warm Regards, > Sue Sue, thanks for the heads up. Can you let us know if there's any way to get a local copy of the video too? That is short of using a fancy graphics card that lets you videotape/dvdrecord it (which I don't have)? I'd love to get a copy on DVD. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:47:23 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: <11ec3$4694ed7c$cef89807$8401@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> Rich Jordan wrote: > On Jul 10, 9:52 pm, Sue wrote: >> Dear Newsgroup, >> >> Please feel free to share with anyone and everyone. It would be nice >> to see the YouTube version get as many hits as the HP ETV copy. >> >> http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI >> >> There are over 4,600 views, 8 comments and most of them about VMS. >> >> Warm Regards, >> Sue > > > Sue, > thanks for the heads up. Can you let us know if there's any way > to get a local copy of the video too? That is short of using a fancy > graphics card that lets you videotape/dvdrecord it (which I don't > have)? I'd love to get a copy on DVD. > > Thanks! There is an extension for Firefox called Download Helper which will capture the Flash video format. You then have to run the captured .FLV file through your choice of media converter to output .mpeg or whatever format you prefer. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:21:52 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: On 07/11/07 09:14, Rich Jordan wrote: > On Jul 10, 9:52 pm, Sue wrote: >> Dear Newsgroup, >> >> Please feel free to share with anyone and everyone. It would be nice >> to see the YouTube version get as many hits as the HP ETV copy. >> >> http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI >> >> There are over 4,600 views, 8 comments and most of them about VMS. >> >> Warm Regards, >> Sue > > > Sue, > thanks for the heads up. Can you let us know if there's any way > to get a local copy of the video too? That is short of using a fancy > graphics card that lets you videotape/dvdrecord it (which I don't > have)? I'd love to get a copy on DVD. http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ It only requires Python 2.4, and is supposed to by platform neutral, so should work on VMS. However, it create Adobe Flash .flv files, so you need a transcoder in order to convert them to a standard format. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:38:58 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: July 10, 2007 8:25 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > Most, if not all, of the machines mentioned are of interest only > to > > collectors these days. Mostly trash collectors but there are a > few > > people who love them! > > > > I have news for you: VMS is not that far from DG's AOS-VS. Once an > OS > remains relegated to a shrinking installed base with few new > customers, > it means that it is generally relegated to legacy applications and > thus > not vulnerable to current break-in techniques. > > If NORAD ran on Window servers, it wouldn't need anti-virus > software > because there would be no way to introduce a virus into the > internal > network since they wouldn't allow any outside machine inside the > mountain. > > Does ETRADE still exist ? That was perhaps one good example of a > VMS > based system that was serving (and thus open to) the general > public. But > when you talk about military systems in highly secure location with > very > tight procedures to prevent any external data from being introduced > without permission, then you cannot really claim that the OS being > used > is highly secure. It is the installation that is secure. Security =3D People + Process + Technology. Overall security is the sum of all 3. It requires all three as a chain is o= nly as strong as its weakest link. Assuming People and Process are equal, Technology is what would differentia= te one OS platform choice vs another. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:21:21 -0400 From: "Carl Friedberg" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <890539d90707110521w767e4a7dq349ae421d91d5a69@mail.gmail.com> Paul, thanks for that! I prefer exit 2930 or exit 2932. ROFL Carl > $ exit(2928) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:54:00 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <8nUH01ZJYghx@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was done at VMS 3.0. Or are my old grey cells misfiring? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:54:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <5fhi3sF3clhqmU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h82U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>> The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >>> of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >> >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? > > I'm confused. How do you "fix" someone running a program. (OK, you could > "fix" them like you "fix" your dog, but I don't think that was the point.) Like I just posted, they fixed the terminal device protection. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:56:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <5fhif3F3clhqmU4@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > So, what was the timeframe from the origin of VMS to VMS 3.0? How does > it compare to the timeframe from the advent of Windows until NT 3.51 > showed up? Then we can see which one fixed it first. :-) Assuming > you can tell me how VMS 3.0 stopped someone from running a program > that spoofed the login dialog. > I installed VMS 3.0 in 1982, years before I heard of MS-DOS, not to mention Windows. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 08:01:23 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , John Santos writes: > I have heard the claim that there have only ever been 2 VMS viruses, > both proof of concept (and neither of which would work with current > versions of VMS), which were never extant in the wild. I know a fellow who took a virus course as an undergraduate (which is now prohibited in some schools). They used a VMS system. They were given privileges as way back then (early 80's) no one could plant a virus on a properly configured VMS system without being given privileges. I'm sure they wrote more than two. I'm also sure they didn't get released into the wild as that would be improper, and most likely pointless. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:09:19 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4694E48F.8090801@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> > > > The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that > non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was > done at VMS 3.0. > > Or are my old grey cells misfiring? > Well, I came on board at VMS V3.6 (spring of 1984). The trick of writing and running a pseudo loginout for the purpose of stealing passwords was still a problem at 3.6. My memory grows DIMM so I can't say exactly when the problem was fixed but I'm sure it was after V4.0. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 14:59:34 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fk9ilF3ddmnsU1@mid.individual.net> In article , John Santos writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <1184030627.421742.326360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> >>>On Jul 9, 8:58 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>> >>>>In article , >>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: >>>>>[snip] >>>> >>>>>>A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my >>>>>>VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >>>>>>go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >>>> >>>>>If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into >>>>>VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen >>>>>tricks up his sleeve. >>>> >>>>Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is time. >>>>I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus >>>>or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were still >>> >>>*I* didn't make that claim. >> >> >> Didn't say you had, I did say I "contantly heard" it. It has been >> flatly stated here as fact too many times to even count. >> > > For some values of "constantly", which occasionally equals "never"... > > I have heard the claim that there have only ever been 2 VMS viruses, > both proof of concept (and neither of which would work with current > versions of VMS), which were never extant in the wild. > > I have *never* heard the claim that there has never been a trojan > on VMS. In fact, I think the existence of fake loginout trojans was > the reason that SET TERMINAL/SECURE_SERVER was invented. Short or selective memory. How about as recently as June 6, right here? "Lets not forget that VMS have never been hit by hackers, virus and Trojan for over 30 years and still ticking." bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 11:02:18 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <8nUH01ZJYghx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> > > The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that > non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was > done at VMS 3.0. That is not sufficient to protect against someone leaving a program running on a public terminal that simulates LOGINOUT for the purpose of capturing a password. By VMS V4.2 or so (the earliest STARLET.REQ I keep online), TT2$V_SECURE was provided so that non-Autobaud terminals can only initiate login via the Break key. Once users are accustomed to using the Break key, there is no reason for them to try any other combination. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:17:44 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> > > The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that > non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was > done at VMS 3.0. I can see how this would prevent me running a password grabber on a terminal I didn't own. But at the risk of exposing my own account, I could still run it against the terminal I am logged in at. I don't see any protection against that if the potential victim does not avoid the trap. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:52:11 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fkg5rF3d8ledU1@mid.individual.net> In article <46943B8C.DF469DCC@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > To this day, I still maintain - and advocate - the practice of ensuring that > there's an EXIT statement at the end of a DCL procedure: to prevent malicious > code from appending potentially harmful statements at what should be and > end/exit point. > Surely the virus writer is likely to be smart enough to anticipate and work around something that simple!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:09:17 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fkh5tF3cn030U2@mid.individual.net> In article <4693E1EC.6070603@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>Bob Koehler wrote: >>> >>>>In article <5fg3tpF3d7h82U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >>>>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >>>> >>>> >>>> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >>>> >>> >>>ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>>V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> >> >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. >> > > My users knew because I told them! You personally told everyone and explained it to their satisfaction? And answered any questions they might come up with? How many users? I have over a thousand a year and that is not counting the need to re-train all the students from previous semesters. Or the fact that I do not have personal contact with the majority of them because they are not even students in my department. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:04:23 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fkgsmF3cn030U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1184098978.766888.177490@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jul 10, 3:00 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <1184091535.554932.208...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> >> > On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> >> > Bob Koehler wrote: >> >> >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >> >>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >> >> >>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >> >> >> >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >> >> >> > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >> >> > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> >> >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but >> >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. >> >> > I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log in. >> >> So did I. But what about the 4000 computer illiterate students and >> several hundred computer illiterate faculty? Remember, this is over >> 10 years ago. The INTERNET, for all intents and purposes, does not >> even exist yet and most people arriving at college have never had to >> use a computer before. There are not PC's in every room of the house!! ;-) > > Tell them, too! (See below.) You really have no experience dealing with a university environment, do you? > >> >> >> >> > That's the solution! Don't just set the Break feature: Tell the users >> > they have to press the Break key. >> >> Tell them when? When do you think you are going to be given the >> opportunity to hold a class on computer use for everyone? > > Include it with the Username / Password instructions. Which no one will read. > You have to give > them a username and password, no? Sure, but you can't make them read the instructions. > Tell them then. If oyu mean tell them in person, I don't see any of my users til the first time they have a problem or cause one. :-) > Besides, unless > these spoof programs are running continually, most users won't get in > at all without learning the Break sequence, so they'll be foreced to > learn it then. No, it runs once, it exits after the first time someone types their userid and password into it. It then returned the terminal to normal use. If it didn't exit after the first time even an idiot would have figured out something was wrong. > >> >> > :-) Ya know, most of the time you >> > log in you're not getting the password grabber so unless you have the >> > bad luck to do your first login in a password grabber and not know to >> > press the Break key, you'll be forced to learn to use the Break key in >> > time. >> >> > Well, like you said about programmers and languages, it's a poor >> > workman who blames his tools. >> >> I wasn't blaming the tools. The tools are what made it possible. :-) >> I was only pointing out the fact that contrary to popular belief >> VMS can have security problems, too. I have had it pointed out >> to me that user would notice when he logged in that VMS would not >> inform him of the failed login so he would then know he had been >> spoofed. I would hope you can see the problem with this, but in >> case you can't, how would the computer illiterate even know he was >> supposed to get the message? > > Yes, there have been security problems with VMS. My impression is that > they've been few and far between. The same can't be said for Windows. Well, I would need to see some statistics comparing number of problems to number of systems and users. 50 trojan attacks on VMS would be statistically more sugnificant than 5000 on windows based on the sheer numbers involved. I know there were more than 50 incidients here in the first semester I worked here. > > Include the login-failure point with the Username/password > instructions. OK, many won't get that, but most will be forced to > learn the Break sequence. Anyway, this is not a problem specific to > VMS! Of course it isn't. But noone else is claiming imunity. > >> >> And trying to teach/train faculty is even harder and less likely. >> You can offer the class, but you can't make them attend it. Something >> about herding cats..... > > OK, but again, this is not a VMS-specific problem. > >> >> >> >> > Many users of Windows recently didn't know not to open attachments >> > without being certain it was from a trusted source. And I recall that >> > many didn't know about spoofing and phishing and the like. >> >> And the largest majority still do not. I have people here, CS faculty, >> who are constantly sending out messages with things like: "visit this >> funny webpage." I know I just delete them, but how many of the other >> faculty do you think just blindly go there. And these are supposed to >> be the ones who know how things like computers and the INTERNET actually >> work!! > > Not a VMS-specific problem. No, but it shows how hard it is to teach people about the common platform. Now thing about trying to teach the same people about an obscure platform. People today are much more computer literate and savvy and yet they still fall for the simplest of schemes. Expecting that better luck would have been possible when they were much less savvy is just plain silly. > >> > So how did other OSes handle the password-grabber problem and when? >> >> No idea. But I can tell you that I, personally, know how to do the >> same thing for Unix, Primos and CTS under Exec8. :-) Not that I >> would ever do something like that, :-) >> >> >> >> > My Break adventures at the remote lab date back to 1987 so the Break >> > feature was certainly available by then. >> >> All it required was knowledge. Something the majority of computer >> user in the late 80's lacked. > bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 12:09:23 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , Rob Brown writes: > On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Bob Koehler wrote: > >> In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> >>> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >>> >> >> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that >> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was >> done at VMS 3.0. > > I can see how this would prevent me running a password grabber on a > terminal I didn't own. But at the risk of exposing my own account, I > could still run it against the terminal I am logged in at. There is no risk of exposure to your account if you write the software properly. There is some risk of you being discovered through auditing. > I don't > see any protection against that if the potential victim does not avoid > the trap. That is what SET TERMINAL/PERMANENT/SECURE_SERVER is about. When looking for it in NIST 800-53 (and presumably other documents) look for the term "Trusted Path". ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:12:33 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fkhc1F3cn030U3@mid.individual.net> In article <8nUH01ZJYghx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> > > The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that > non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was > done at VMS 3.0. > > Or are my old grey cells misfiring? I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:22:25 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fkhuhF3cn030U4@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5fhi3sF3clhqmU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h82U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>>> The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >>>> of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >>> >>> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >> >> I'm confused. How do you "fix" someone running a program. (OK, you could >> "fix" them like you "fix" your dog, but I don't think that was the point.) > > Like I just posted, they fixed the terminal device protection. How did this prevent someone fromn running a program on their terminal under their account that merely reads and writes to the terminal? I think you are ignoring the KISS principle. These programs didn't use QIO's and access terminal devices thru some fancy method. They just read and wrote from the users terminal. The only thing I can think of that stopped this was the demise of the terminal as a user interface. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:26:42 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fki6iF3cn030U5@mid.individual.net> In article <1184097567.341864.124170@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> Main, Kerry wrote: >> > Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the >> > last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge >> > compliment to OpenVMS !! >> >> When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 >> system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? >> Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? > > You might as well ask the last time I heard anything about any of > these! I can't remember that far back!!! :-) Well, admitedly, all of those but Univac are pretty much defunct. But, other than Univac (Unisys, actually) there is still Primos and all the PDP-11 OSes that are still very much in use. Heck, the PDP-11 OSes are still commercially available. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:29:21 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fkibgF3cn030U6@mid.individual.net> In article <4693F146.1040306@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > AEF wrote: >> On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> >>>Main, Kerry wrote: >>> >>>>Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the >>>>last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge >>>>compliment to OpenVMS !! >>> >>>When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 >>>system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? >>>Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? >> >> >> You might as well ask the last time I heard anything about any of >> these! I can't remember that far back!!! :-) >> >> AEF >> > > Most, if not all, of the machines mentioned are of interest only to > collectors these days. Mostly trash collectors but there are a few > people who love them! > Univac (Unisys) would probably argue that point with you. I understand they have recently announced a virtualization project much like what IBM does targeting the EXEC users. I also understand they have done almost as good a job of continuing to support legacy software on their newre offerings, again much like IBM does with the 360 architecture. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:35:50 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <469514F6.5030704@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <4693E1EC.6070603@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>>In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, >>> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> >>> >>>>Bob Koehler wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>In article <5fg3tpF3d7h82U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >>>>>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >>>>> >>>> >>>>ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>>>V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >>> >>> >>>Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but >>>they certainly wouldn't have back then. >>> >> >>My users knew because I told them! > > > You personally told everyone and explained it to their satisfaction? > And answered any questions they might come up with? How many users? > I have over a thousand a year and that is not counting the need to > re-train all the students from previous semesters. Or the fact that > I do not have personal contact with the majority of them because they > are not even students in my department. > > bill > I had about 20 users maximum! This was a VAX 11/750 and, later a VAXstation 3100, an 8200, a couple of VAXstation 2000s. For about four months, ca. 1995 I managed a VAX8200 on which some 2000 students and faculty members had accounts. I wasn't much concerned with security then; I had enough problems just getting E-Mail to work properly (VMS V5.4, later 5.5-2, and UCX 2.7e subsequently upgraded to 3.3 ECO-14.) and getting a DNS server running when our upstream provider asked us to stop using their server. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:51:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <469518B2.5040403@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <4693F146.1040306@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>AEF wrote: >> >>>On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Main, Kerry wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the >>>>>last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge >>>>>compliment to OpenVMS !! >>>> >>>>When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 >>>>system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? >>>>Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? >>> >>> >>>You might as well ask the last time I heard anything about any of >>>these! I can't remember that far back!!! :-) >>> >>>AEF >>> >> >>Most, if not all, of the machines mentioned are of interest only to >>collectors these days. Mostly trash collectors but there are a few >>people who love them! >> > > > Univac (Unisys) would probably argue that point with you. I understand > they have recently announced a virtualization project much like what > IBM does targeting the EXEC users. I also understand they have done > almost as good a job of continuing to support legacy software on their > newre offerings, again much like IBM does with the 360 architecture. Univac/Unisys is a player seldom heard of. I have never encountered their hardware nor spoken with anyone who mentioned experience with it. Remember "IBM and the Seven Dwarves"? Univac was one of the seven AIRC. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:53:31 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 07/11/07 12:29, Bill Gunshannon wrote: [snip] >> > > Univac (Unisys) would probably argue that point with you. I understand > they have recently announced a virtualization project much like what > IBM does targeting the EXEC users. Correct. Their latest mainframes run legacy code sitting on top of VMs which execute on specially-built x86-64 systems. > I also understand they have done > almost as good a job of continuing to support legacy software on their > newre offerings, again much like IBM does with the 360 architecture. > > bill > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:03:08 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: > On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" >>>> resistance by another name? >>> Do you have any proof that it is Al Qaeda doing those deeds ? Or just >>> beleieving the US military propaganda ? >>> Have you seen any evidence that any bombs actually come from the Iranian >>> govermment ? Or just beleive that propaganda from the US military >>> showing some picture of *any* bomb and claiming it is evidence it comes >>> from Iran without any such markings visible and defiitely no proof that >>> it would have come from the Iranian government ? >>> I am very disapointed that americans, who should, by now, realised they >>> really got suckered by the lying criminals at the white house into an >>> illegal war, continue to beleive the current allegations that are not >>> supported by any credible evidence. >>> Fact: Iraq is a country currently occupied and governed by the americans >>> who installed a puppet government. It is perfectly natural for the >>> locals to wish to destabilise the situation because they will do >>> everything to not only kick the americans out, but also force them out >>> with their tail between their legs. >> The problem is that there is no such thing as a coherent 'locals' group >> in Iraq. Iraq consists out of several religious and ethnic groups who >> have hated each other for centuries. So now in this lawless period they >> take the opportunity to kill each other with great enthusiasm. No need >> for Al Qaeda really. > > Exactly. It's a tribal culture. We were so critical of Saddam Hussein, > and I know I'll get blasted for saying this, but I think I can better > understand why he was so ruthless with "his people." > >> Combine this with a very primitive form of Islam, >> and bingo you get a lot of idiots who think they will go straight to >> paradise when they blow themselves up together with a lot of innocent >> bystanders. And in paradise, so they believe, there will be 72 virgins >> waiting for them. After such a virgin has been deflowered, she >> mysteriously will become a virgin again. So these very religious martyrs >> actually hope to arrive in a kind of eternal brothel. >> > > Which makes you wonder what the female suicide bombers expect... never > mind. I just thought about it and answered my own question :-\ > >> There is one small >> problem, according to some there has been a slight error in translation, >> and instead of 72 virgins there will be 72 raisins waiting for them. > > You must have heard that through the grapevine;-) > >> Islam once was a very rich culture, with great scientists, beautiful art >> and architecture. Today Islam seems to be a primitive shadow of this >> once so great culture. To give you an example, it seems more foreign >> books are translated in Greek than are translated in the whole of the >> Arab speaking world. >> > > The cradle of civilization, it was. > >> And what about the Americans in Iraq? Obviously they went to war without >> having a clue what to do when the war was over. They expected the >> population to cheer the Americans, to setup their own versions of the >> republican and democratic party (well, just a republican party would >> have been sufficient), and elect a kind of George W as new president. >> And so a new great democracy would have been born !! >> > > "W" watched too many John Wayne & Audie Murphy movies, maybe? > >> The American soldiers who went there knew they they belonged to the best >> army in the world, with the best weapons, and they were sent by the >> greatest democracy in the world, led by God's own representative on >> earth George W. Bush. They also had the best education in the world, and >> so I would not be surprised if many of them weren't even able to point >> out Iraq on the map of the world. To their surprise they noticed that >> there were no McDonalds, Burger Kings and Wallmarts in Iraq, and >> baseball was rather unknown as well. Conclusion: this was a primitive >> people, and they had no reservations showing that to the Iraqi people. >> For some strange reason the Iraqis did not appreciate this attitude. I'm >> sure this whole complex is one of the main reasons why the Americans >> have failed bitterly in Iraq. >> > > The US "coalition" made too many mistakes to even mention except to > write a book, but the soldiers had no expectations of finding a McD, > BK or WM there. This was meant as satire. However Americans in general are not known for their great knowledge of foreign countries and cultures to put it mildly, and that is what I was trying to express. Combine this with the believe that anything originating from the US is automatically the best and the greatest in the world, and you get a rather dangerous attitude to other countries and cultures. George W is trying to proof that every day, and he is succeeding I can assure you. I know too many of them, and/or their families, to be > able to agree with your conclusion. > >> >>> There can be no "victory" by the americans, and the quicker they admit >>> defeat, mistake and mea-culpas, the quicker the resistance in Iraq will >>> allow the americans to retreat in an orderly fashion. (aka: gradual >>> widthdrwawal, not the "all or nothing" debates in the USA). > > The "victory" was accomplished when Saddam was overthrown. Now, we're > suffering because of the stupid decisions made by our "leaders" about > what to do about the "victory." > > The radicals in Iraq are even more ignorant about the US than we are > about them. If the idiots would stop killing each other, we'd pull > out. If they were "just" killing our soldiers, we'd back off, which we > did until they started killing their own civilians and destroying > their own infrastructure and even their holy places. > > When we do pull back for good, we'll maintain whatever small presence > as is warranted and requested by the Iraqis --- just as we do in other > places in the world. If we're asked to leave, we will --- just as we > have in other places. The US doesn't "conquer and occupy" other > nations (except, of course, our own) and every nation we've ever hurt > in war was rebuilt thanks to our aid. How many other "conquerors" can > you say that about? As someone whose name I forget said in a speech, > 'The only foreign land the US asks for is enough to bury the soldiers > who died fighting for that nation's freedom.' > > Even our own native Americans (granted they suffered) were not forced > to assimilate except if they wanted to. You don't find that too often > in the history of conquerors, either. The US has committed wrongs > against other people, sure, but what we do it in the world's > headlines, and Americans who commit crimes during war are tried and > punished for the world to see. > > The non-western world seems to apply a double standard where the US is > concerned. Chopping off soldiers and civilians heads and dragging > their bodies through the streets and purposefully killing women and > children seems more acceptable than us locking up those same criminals > and treating them like the animals they are. > > Anyway, I for one appreciate Didier's original sentiment so, Didier, > thank you from me, at least. Our nation would not exist today had it > not been for the support of France. I hope the people of our nations > can always be friendly in spite of whatever current bunch of politics > wiggles its way to the top . > > ******************************************************* > "These were extraordinary times, peopled by ranting maniacs in > love with violence and a violent god, infested with apologists > for wickedness, who blamed victims for their suffering and > excused murderers in the name of justice." > (Dean Koontz, By the Light of the Moon) > ******************************************************* > ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 12:42:57 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5fk1ihF3cqn27U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1184115111.488306.300400@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: >> JF Mezei wrote: >> > Ron Johnson wrote: >> >> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" >> >> resistance by another name? >> >> > Do you have any proof that it is Al Qaeda doing those deeds ? Or just >> > beleieving the US military propaganda ? >> >> > Have you seen any evidence that any bombs actually come from the Iranian >> > govermment ? Or just beleive that propaganda from the US military >> > showing some picture of *any* bomb and claiming it is evidence it comes >> > from Iran without any such markings visible and defiitely no proof that >> > it would have come from the Iranian government ? >> >> > I am very disapointed that americans, who should, by now, realised they >> > really got suckered by the lying criminals at the white house into an >> > illegal war, continue to beleive the current allegations that are not >> > supported by any credible evidence. >> >> > Fact: Iraq is a country currently occupied and governed by the americans >> > who installed a puppet government. It is perfectly natural for the >> > locals to wish to destabilise the situation because they will do >> > everything to not only kick the americans out, but also force them out >> > with their tail between their legs. >> >> The problem is that there is no such thing as a coherent 'locals' group >> in Iraq. Iraq consists out of several religious and ethnic groups who >> have hated each other for centuries. So now in this lawless period they >> take the opportunity to kill each other with great enthusiasm. No need >> for Al Qaeda really. > > Exactly. It's a tribal culture. We were so critical of Saddam Hussein, > and I know I'll get blasted for saying this, but I think I can better > understand why he was so ruthless with "his people." Even more evidence that contrary to this notion of the great Arab culture they have never been and probably never will be civilized. And in line with the true Klingon concept, they have no honor. > >> Combine this with a very primitive form of Islam, >> and bingo you get a lot of idiots who think they will go straight to >> paradise when they blow themselves up together with a lot of innocent >> bystanders. And in paradise, so they believe, there will be 72 virgins >> waiting for them. After such a virgin has been deflowered, she >> mysteriously will become a virgin again. So these very religious martyrs >> actually hope to arrive in a kind of eternal brothel. >> > > Which makes you wonder what the female suicide bombers expect... never > mind. I just thought about it and answered my own question :-\ They expect nothing. They have been so terrorized by arab men that they are merely ordered to do it by a man and they do it without question. I am amazed that more women over here (where is NOW when they are really needed) aren't in favor of us winning this war in order to stop the unbelievable mis-treatment of women in the arab world. (Anyone remember the two Barbara Walters Afghanistan interviews?) > >> There is one small >> problem, according to some there has been a slight error in translation, >> and instead of 72 virgins there will be 72 raisins waiting for them. > > You must have heard that through the grapevine;-) > >> Islam once was a very rich culture, with great scientists, beautiful art >> and architecture. Today Islam seems to be a primitive shadow of this >> once so great culture. To give you an example, it seems more foreign >> books are translated in Greek than are translated in the whole of the >> Arab speaking world. >> > > The cradle of civilization, it was. Bull crap. They are and always have been little more than itinerant camel herders. All attempts at civilizing them have failed. > >> And what about the Americans in Iraq? Obviously they went to war without >> having a clue what to do when the war was over. They expected the >> population to cheer the Americans, to setup their own versions of the >> republican and democratic party (well, just a republican party would >> have been sufficient), and elect a kind of George W as new president. >> And so a new great democracy would have been born !! >> > > "W" watched too many John Wayne & Audie Murphy movies, maybe? If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into the air how do you stop the fighting? > >> The American soldiers who went there knew they they belonged to the best >> army in the world, with the best weapons, and they were sent by the >> greatest democracy in the world, led by God's own representative on >> earth George W. Bush. They also had the best education in the world, and >> so I would not be surprised if many of them weren't even able to point >> out Iraq on the map of the world. To their surprise they noticed that >> there were no McDonalds, Burger Kings and Wallmarts in Iraq, and >> baseball was rather unknown as well. Conclusion: this was a primitive >> people, and they had no reservations showing that to the Iraqi people. >> For some strange reason the Iraqis did not appreciate this attitude. I'm >> sure this whole complex is one of the main reasons why the Americans >> have failed bitterly in Iraq. >> > > The US "coalition" made too many mistakes to even mention except to > write a book, but the soldiers had no expectations of finding a McD, > BK or WM there. I know too many of them, and/or their families, to be > able to agree with your conclusion. The US military has never had a free hand to do what the Army needs to do to end this. If WWII were fought the same way the Brits would be speaking German now. >> >> >> > There can be no "victory" by the americans, and the quicker they admit >> > defeat, mistake and mea-culpas, the quicker the resistance in Iraq will >> > allow the americans to retreat in an orderly fashion. (aka: gradual >> > widthdrwawal, not the "all or nothing" debates in the USA). > > The "victory" was accomplished when Saddam was overthrown. Now, we're > suffering because of the stupid decisions made by our "leaders" about > what to do about the "victory." > > The radicals in Iraq are even more ignorant about the US than we are > about them. If the idiots would stop killing each other, we'd pull > out. If they were "just" killing our soldiers, we'd back off, which we > did until they started killing their own civilians and destroying > their own infrastructure and even their holy places. > > When we do pull back for good, we'll maintain whatever small presence > as is warranted and requested by the Iraqis --- just as we do in other > places in the world. If we're asked to leave, we will --- just as we > have in other places. The US doesn't "conquer and occupy" other > nations (except, of course, our own) and every nation we've ever hurt > in war was rebuilt thanks to our aid. How many other "conquerors" can > you say that about? As someone whose name I forget said in a speech, > 'The only foreign land the US asks for is enough to bury the soldiers > who died fighting for that nation's freedom.' > > Even our own native Americans (granted they suffered) were not forced > to assimilate except if they wanted to. You don't find that too often > in the history of conquerors, either. The US has committed wrongs > against other people, sure, but what we do it in the world's > headlines, and Americans who commit crimes during war are tried and > punished for the world to see. > > The non-western world seems to apply a double standard where the US is > concerned. Chopping off soldiers and civilians heads and dragging > their bodies through the streets and purposefully killing women and > children seems more acceptable than us locking up those same criminals > and treating them like the animals they are. One does have to admit to some confussion in this regard. When I was appointed as an officer I was given a little book that contained the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution. The ceremony included a statement to the effect that if we were goingt o swear to defend the one and we believed in the other we should probably know what they actually say. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Sorry, I don't see where this says it only applies to those born in the US. And every course I have ever taken on morals has stressed the responsibility of the strong to stand up for those to weak to defend themselves. How quickly we forget. > > Anyway, I for one appreciate Didier's original sentiment so, Didier, > thank you from me, at least. Our nation would not exist today had it > not been for the support of France. I hope the people of our nations > can always be friendly in spite of whatever current bunch of politics > wiggles its way to the top . Yeah, their assistance to the Confederates during the Civil War probably kept that one going twice as long as it would have without their help. And still we bailed them out in two wars. > > ******************************************************* > "These were extraordinary times, peopled by ranting maniacs in > love with violence and a violent god, infested with apologists > for wickedness, who blamed victims for their suffering and > excused murderers in the name of justice." > (Dean Koontz, By the Light of the Moon) > ******************************************************* > bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 06:52:01 GMT From: Fujikawa Yamamoto Subject: Re: Linksys says I need a Windows machine to update my firmware Message-ID: On 09 Jul 2007, "Bob F." posted some news:OKidnTjbE6nR-w_bnZ2dnUVZ_vqpnZ2d@comcast.com: > Wow, you did great with the summary but your points didn't bring me to > this conclusion, but good job! (except for your VMS point) I have yet to see a eunuchs computing environment that is superior to VMS all things being equal. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:21:01 -0700 From: Michael Vilain Subject: Re: Linksys says I need a Windows machine to update my firmware Message-ID: In article , Fujikawa Yamamoto wrote: > On 09 Jul 2007, "Bob F." posted some > news:OKidnTjbE6nR-w_bnZ2dnUVZ_vqpnZ2d@comcast.com: > > > Wow, you did great with the summary but your points didn't bring me to > > this conclusion, but good job! (except for your VMS point) > > I have yet to see a eunuchs computing environment that is superior to VMS > all things being equal. I knew I was in for an uphill battle when I interviewed with the internal Ultrix group at DEC's Lytton labs in Palo Alto. I'd been a VMS systems programmer for over 8 years and the guy that interviewed me had a comic strip of Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes) wacking a pizza with a huge mallet. The initials "VMS" were scribbled across the face of the pizza. No, I didn't get the job. And it's funny (at least to us DECies and old VMS system types) to see SUN touting "clustering". OMG, it's 1985 all over again. And my favorite was the VMS developer's canned response to all Software Performance Reports (SPRs): From: 24766::XYZZY "DTN 521-xxxx 09-Oct-1990 0211" 9-OCT-1990 11:15:00.04 To: WINERY::VILAIN CC: Subj: See Figure 1 From: VAXWRK::XYZZY "It's all in the script..." 21-OCT-1986 14:13:30.14 To: PLUGH CC: Subj: all the answers you'll ever need From: REGENT::PLUGH "MICHAEL PLUGH MLO3-6/B16 223-2230 08-Sep-1986 1606" 8-SEP-1986 16:06 To: DAVE Subj: see figure 1 VMS Version 3 Please stop submitting SPR's. This is our system. We designed it, we built it, and we use it more than you do. If there are some features you think might be missing, if the system isn't as effective as you think it could be, TOUGH! Give it back, we don't need you. See figure 1. http://home.comcast.net/~vilain/figure1.jpg Forget about your silly problem, let's take a look at some of the features of the VMS operating system. 1) Options. We've got lots of them. So many in fact, that you need two strong people to carry the documentation around. So many that it will be a cold day in hell before half of them are used. So many that you are probably not going to do your work right anyway. However, the number of options isn't all that important, because we picked some interesting values for the options and called them ... 2) Defaults. We put a lot of thought into our defaults. We like them. If we didn't, we would have made something else be the default. So keep your cotton-picking hands off our defaults. Don't touch. Consider them mandatory. "Mandatory defaults" has a nice ring to it. Change them and your system crashes, tough. See figure 1. 3) Language Processors. They work just fine. They take in source, and often produce object files as a reward for your efforts. You don't like the code? Too bad! You can even try to call operating system services from them. For any that you can't, use the assembler like we do. We spoke to the language processor developers about this, they think a lot like we do, they said "See figure 1". 4) Debuggers. We've got debuggers, one we support and one we use. You shouldn't make mistakes anyway, it is a waste of time. We don't want to hear anything about debuggers, we're not interested, See figure 1. 5) Error Logging. Ignore it. Why give yourself an ulcer? You don't want to give us the machine to get the problem fixed and we probably can't do it anyway. Oh, and if something breaks between 17:00 and 18:00 or 9:30 and 10:30 or 11:30 and 13:30 or 14:30 and 15:30 don't waste your time calling us, we're out. See figure 1. 6) Command Language. We designed it ourselves, it's perfect. We like it so much we put our name on it, DCL- Digital's Command Language. In fact we're so happy with it, we designed it once for each of our operating systems. We even try to keep it the same from release to release, sometimes we blow it though, See figure 1. 7) Real Time Performance. We got it. Who else could have done such a good job? So the system seems sluggish with all those priority 18 processes, no problem, just make them priority 1. Anyway, realtime isn't important anymore like it used to be. We changed our groups name to get rid of the word realtime, we told all our realtime users to see figure 1 a long time ago. In conclusion, stuff your SPR. Love VMS or leave it, but don't complain. --adapted from TOPS-20 -- DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:19:36 GMT From: Robert Redelmeier Subject: Re: Linksys says I need a Windows machine to update my firmware Message-ID: In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet Fujikawa Yamamoto wrote in part: > I have yet to see a eunuchs computing environment that is > superior to VMS all things being equal. Surely you see this preference is dependant on your personal values. Just like some people prefer MS-Windows. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:47:57 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > I had a similar problem with a 1970s British car. It turned out that > mine was in a run of 6 cars during a change of gearbox from one model to > another, which had different oil pipes. It was only because I had worked > for a vehicle importer that I knew to prompt the dealer to look the > details up on their microfiches. Reminds me of my 1973 VW Type 311. They changed the brakes and a lot of catalogs simply stopped listing at 1972. Fortunately a mechanic had told me that they used the same brake pads on the 1974 Dasher, which replaced the 311. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 10:47:26 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Message-ID: In article , "John E. Malmberg" writes: > Teco assumes that it will see every keystroke as it is typed, so > implementing it on a block mode terminal might be a challenge, but > should not be impossible. Actually, TECO on VMS presumes it will immediately receive: The first character of any command The termination character (escape) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 10:49:53 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.enco h mpasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > But UNIX was already around. Maybe Larry knows whether TECO is older > or UNIX (1968)? Your parenthetical indeed was necessary, as I know little about Unix. TECO was originally implemented for the PDP-1 about 1963. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:43:17 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: In article , healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > Christoph Gartmann wrote: > > is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for > > OpenVMS? > > I'd like to tack on a question to this. The last time I looked at this > question was nearly 10 years ago, and at that point the chief issue I found > was that many of the VMS newsreaders seemed unable to gracefully handle news > providers with HUGE numbers of groups. Which newsreaders available on > OpenVMS can handle this? I use NEWSRDR with news.online.de, which I believe has quite a large number of groups. If some NNTP wizard posts the command to get the total number of groups, I'll telnet to port 119 and report the results here. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:50:22 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: <28O4CpccbDWs@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > I'd like to tack on a question to this. The last time I looked at this > question was nearly 10 years ago, and at that point the chief issue I found > was that many of the VMS newsreaders seemed unable to gracefully handle news > providers with HUGE numbers of groups. Which newsreaders available on > OpenVMS can handle this? I use dxrn, ANU, or mozilla. Never had any problem with the number of groups on any of them, except that mozilla on my DEC 3000 is slow. I run CSWB on my DS10L instead, but it crashes a lot. I'm waiting for the replacement for CSWB as it's the only current mozilla that seems to be supported on VMS 8.3. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:33:25 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: <5fkij5F3cn030U7@mid.individual.net> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article , healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > >> Christoph Gartmann wrote: >> > is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for >> > OpenVMS? >> >> I'd like to tack on a question to this. The last time I looked at this >> question was nearly 10 years ago, and at that point the chief issue I found >> was that many of the VMS newsreaders seemed unable to gracefully handle news >> providers with HUGE numbers of groups. Which newsreaders available on >> OpenVMS can handle this? > > I use NEWSRDR with news.online.de, which I believe has quite a large > number of groups. > > If some NNTP wizard posts the command to get the total number of groups, > I'll telnet to port 119 and report the results here. list active bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:23:20 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Tier3 Hobbyist License Now Available Message-ID: Hi, By popular demand, the HTML/JavaScript WEB Client version of the Tier3 Queue Lookup example has now been made Firefox compatible. So those of you on *NIX boxes, or who have issues with Internet Explorer, still get to appreciate the beauty and simplicity of this full-function, yet light-weight, browser-based GUI client, as it interacts with your VMS Application Servers. As usual all of the Java, JavaScript, and HTML source code is included in the t3$examples directory. Feel free to compare and contrast the code and appearance differences between the two browsers but, whatever you do, don't forget that what is included in the Tier3 V3.1 distribution is merely a "suggestion" of what could be done; everything at the client end is up for grabs - no constraints! (On that note if anyone wants to try out the code with Opera and Safari then go for it - I certainly won't be :-) This is after all just an example.) Also, you'll find that, in CornuCopiae.html, there is now a new Applet parameter called SSL_REQD. Setting this parameter to Y[es] should give you server authentication and strong encryption to your STUNNEL-fronted Tier3 servers. Cheers Richard Maher PS. If you've ever done any non-trivial web-client development and are yet to discover Firebug then do yourself a favour and download it today! I only just found it and almost cried. Don't know whether "The Computer is the Network" but (if simplicity is anything to go by) there's certainly a case for "The GUI is the browser". "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:f5vv3k$pk1$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Tier3 Software is pleased to announce the availability of a Hobbyist License > for its Client/Server middleware products Tier3 and hotTIP. To obtain your > free copy of this non-commercial, right-to-use license simply e-mail your > request, including your preference for a VAX or Alpha kit, to > Tier3(at)aapt.net.au. > > Recent additions to the Tier3 Client/Server Development kit include: - > > 1) Web client for the DEMO Queue Lookup server example. > > The t3$examples directory contains all of the Java, JavaScript and HTML > source files needed to build a Browser-based GUI client for the DEMO server > Application. > > Witness first-hand how easy upgrading your VMS 3GL Applications with a full > function GUI was meant to be! > > 2) Built-in light-weight Web Server > > Tier3 now ships with its own Applet Uploader come Web Server so there is no > longer any need to run a separate Web Server on your VMS Application > Servers. > > Tier3 Applet Uploaders can now service all of your inbound requests for > Applet Archive and Class files, as well as your HTML Web pages. > > About TIER3 > ========= > > Tier3 is the client/server system that enables remote client access to your > server system resources. As the middleware residing between the client and > server components of your application, Tier3 regulates and schedules client > requests, allocates the resources necessary to satisfy those requests, and > channels the resulting output back to the requesting client. > > Similar to a Remote Procedure Call, Tier3 allows a remote client (e.g. a > Visual Basic program on a Windows PC) to access your 3GL routine running on > a VMS server. But unlike other RPC implementations, Tier3 offers the > following benefits: - > > Ø Transparent Multi-Threading. Tier3 provides an independent multi-threaded > communication server for each application. This relieves your server code > from the need to perform its own threading and mutexing. > > Ø Application Based Tuning & Configuration. Because every Tier3 application > has its own communication server, inter-application resource contention is > reduced, and each application on a given node can be tuned/configured > independently. > > Ø Persistent Network Connection. Once accepted, the network connection > between client and communication server is maintained until either your > client or your server code asks specifically for it to be dropped. This > removes the overhead of having to obtain a channel, request a connection, > and pass authorization, each time a client needs to access your server > application. > > Ø Secure Client/Server Applications. In addition to ensuring that only > authorized clients can access your application, Tier3 also identifies the > username that the client is entitled to assume on the server node. This > allows your server application to perform additional security checks, > perform charge-back accounting, or maintain an audit trail of who has been > modifying a database. > > Ø Transactional Data Integrity. Tier3 incorporates hotTIP, a Transaction > Internet Protocol (TIP) compliant Transaction Manager for VMS. hotTIP > allows any DECdtm controlled Resource Manager, such as Rdb, to participate > in a distributed transaction with a cooperating process, controlled by > MTS/DTC on a Windows2000 environment, with the full ACID properties of a > true two-phase commit transaction, regardless of the middleware product of > choice! In case you are unaware, the beauty of TIP's "Two-Pipe" strategy is > it's application-pipe (or middleware) neutrality. Whereas most XA > implementations mandate homogenous Transaction Monitor deployments (such as > Tuxedo everywhere, Encina everywhere, MQSeries everywhere, ACMSxp everywhere > and so on . . .), hotTIP from TIER3 Software gives you complete freedom to > choose the middleware product(s) that best suite your particular application > and heterogeneous network needs. > > Ø Re-usable Execution Servers. Tier3 execution servers are re-usable on a > transactional basis, with your development team controlling how long a > transaction, or server affinity, will be maintained. This is achieved by > effectively supplying your 3GL RECEIVE routine with a full-duplex, or > conversational, pipe as its only parameter. > > Ø Dynamic Execution Server Creation. As client demand dictates, each > applications communication server will grow/shrink the execution server > processing pool, in accordance with the parameters specified by your system > manager in the Tier3 Configuration File. > > Ø Preservation of Existing Investment. Tier3 server development is as simple > as creating a shareable image containing the six subroutines or User Action > Routines that Tier3 will activate on your behalf during the life of an > execution server. Your UARs can be written in any 3GL, and have the complete > VMS execution environment at their disposal. You are free to spawn a > sub-process, perform inter-process communication, or your server application > can become a client of another Tier3 application on a different node. This > ability to re-use/incorporate existing 3GL code into your new Tier3 > applications, coupled with the fact that your development staff will find > very little difference between developing Tier3 server applications and > developing any other VMS application, means that your existing IT investment > is preserved. > > Ø No Tier3 Specific Client Software Required. By not layering another API on > top of the standard Socket or System Service interface, Tier3 allows your > client developers unrestricted access to the underlying network protocol. > Performance features such as asynchronous SENDs and Interrupt/Out-of-Band > functionality are all available to you. > > In summary, once your organization has decided it needs the security, > performance, scalability and functionality of a three-tiered client/server > architecture, then your organization will need TIER3. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:35:51 -0700 From: GenericSYS Subject: Re: VMS Cluster Questions Message-ID: <1184142951.965559.131350@p39g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 6:46 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > If this is a production system, then you will have to learn about FDDI > and the rest in order to *safely* change that cluster's configuration > without too much disruption in service. > > If you can afford to brin them down often to test/play with it, then it > is another story, but you will still end up learning it. Hi JF, They cannot be brought down except via agreed dates with business, only during a set period at weekends when work is low etc.etc.. Basically these systems are up 24/7/365. If we did decide to go with this alot of resource will be in play to ensure the change goes smoothly. On Jul 10, 10:55 pm, Uusim=E4ki wrote: > > I feel that I also have to raise my voice into the choir. :-) > > Like others have said, your company won't save much by removing parts > from a well functioning cluster. I would even suggest that you leave the > FDDI alone, because it was most probably chosen for its performance and > reliability in the first place. It performs much better than 100BaseT > and redundancy is built-in. I don't understand what would be achieved by > removing FDDI from the cluster configuration, as it appears to be the > main path for cluster traffic (which serves the volume shadowing also). > The only way to remove it without losing performance is bringing in > 1000BaseT and that might not even be possible with the Alphas because of > their age. I'll bet you haven't had any trouble with the FDDI so why > should it be decommissioned. > > Your best way to save - at least in support costs - is to update your > hardware to newer. If you choose another platform (i.e. I64), you also > need to replace some other hardware (networking equipment, storage) and > you have to consider those costs, too. Hi Uusimaki, We are considering a complete replacement of this environment, but this is one of a number of posibilities to consider. I understand what you are saying regarding the FDDI but I have to remove the FDDI ring - that must be one of the results of whichever route we choose, I have no leeway with that. From comments Roy made earlier it seems to be possible to remove the ring but still maintain the FDDI link by a straight back to back on the systems. On Jul 10, 11:24 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > What about some newer used Alphas from Islandco? > > That's if the current cluster even has a maintenance contract. > Which I suspect it doesn't. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! Hi Ron, We do have a full support agreement, with prior version support, for hardware and software. We need it with the frequency of hardware issues we get with this old kit. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:09:50 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: VMS Cluster Questions Message-ID: (Sorry for resorting to posting this) Hi GenericSYS, did you get my e-mail sent to you yesterday afternoon ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:27:46 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: VMS Cluster Questions Message-ID: In article <1184142951.965559.131350@p39g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, GenericSYS wrote: > Hi Uusimaki, > > We are considering a complete replacement of this environment, but > this is one of a number of posibilities to consider. I understand > what you are saying regarding the FDDI but I have to remove the FDDI > ring - that must be one of the results of whichever route we choose, I > have no leeway with that. From comments Roy made earlier it seems to > be possible to remove the ring but still maintain the FDDI link by a > straight back to back on the systems. > Digital Networks (a spin-off of the old network HW group at DEC) still supports FDDI. In particular, you might want to look at their FDDI Gateway product: http://www.dnpg.com/fddi_gateway.asp You can connect local FDDI to this device, and it transparently bridges to 100 Mb/sec ethernet. Customers use it to replace their long-distance FDDI loops with ethernet, while maintaining FDDI connectivity for systems where that is the safest option. In particular, no software need be reconfigured, since the system is still using FDDI locally. The bridge to ethernet can be invisible to all software layers. This is a popular device with customers migrating to VMS on Integrity (where there is no FDDI support). It lets Integrity nodes coexist indefinitely on the same network, and in the same cluster, with older FDDI nodes. We were worried about the impact of NOT supporting FDDI on Integrity -- until Digital Networks demonstrated this device. Then we knew that existing FDDI clusters had a good migration solution. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:38:17 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: VMS Cluster Questions Message-ID: <1184157497.938559.87030@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 3:35 am, GenericSYS wrote: > On Jul 10, 6:46 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > > > If this is a production system, then you will have to learn about FDDI > > and the rest in order to *safely* change that cluster's configuration > > without too much disruption in service. > > > If you can afford to brin them down often to test/play with it, then it > > is another story, but you will still end up learning it. > > Hi JF, > > They cannot be brought down except via agreed dates with business, > only during a set period at weekends when work is low etc.etc.. > Basically these systems are up 24/7/365. If we did decide to go with > this alot of resource will be in play to ensure the change goes > smoothly. > > On Jul 10, 10:55 pm, Uusim=E4ki > wrote: > > > > > > > I feel that I also have to raise my voice into the choir. :-) > > > Like others have said, your company won't save much by removing parts > > from a well functioning cluster. I would even suggest that you leave the > > FDDI alone, because it was most probably chosen for its performance and > > reliability in the first place. It performs much better than 100BaseT > > and redundancy is built-in. I don't understand what would be achieved by > > removing FDDI from the cluster configuration, as it appears to be the > > main path for cluster traffic (which serves the volume shadowing also). > > The only way to remove it without losing performance is bringing in > > 1000BaseT and that might not even be possible with the Alphas because of > > their age. I'll bet you haven't had any trouble with the FDDI so why > > should it be decommissioned. > > > Your best way to save - at least in support costs - is to update your > > hardware to newer. If you choose another platform (i.e. I64), you also > > need to replace some other hardware (networking equipment, storage) and > > you have to consider those costs, too. > > Hi Uusimaki, > > We are considering a complete replacement of this environment, but > this is one of a number of posibilities to consider. I understand > what you are saying regarding the FDDI but I have to remove the FDDI > ring - that must be one of the results of whichever route we choose, I > have no leeway with that. From comments Roy made earlier it seems to > be possible to remove the ring but still maintain the FDDI link by a > straight back to back on the systems. > > On Jul 10, 11:24 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > > What about some newer used Alphas from Islandco? > > > That's if the current cluster even has a maintenance contract. > > Which I suspect it doesn't. > > > -- > > Ron Johnson, Jr. > > Jefferson LA USA > > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! > > Hi Ron, > > We do have a full support agreement, with prior version support, for > hardware and software. We need it with the frequency of hardware > issues we get with this old kit. GenricSYS, Also note that transitioning this may be doable, with careful planning, without actually shutting down production, one of the points that I made in my OpenVMS Technnical Journal paper (accessible via http://www.rlgsc.com/publications/vmstechjournal/migrationstrategies.html )=2E In that paper, I made the point that new members can enter the cluster, and old members leave without actually bringing down the cluster. The same can be said for disk data and other resources. And as Hoff has already pointed out, many of us do provide consulting services in this area. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 12:19:40 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <5fk06sF3ci3mpU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Dirk Munk writes: > > I'm > sure this whole complex is one of the main reasons why the Americans > have failed bitterly in Iraq. > And you would be wrong. The only reason the violence continues in Iraq is the same reason why we left VietNam to the communists. Politicians running the war instead of the military. Do you watch the news? Ever see Iraqis "celebrating" by shooting guns in the air? (As an aside, for those who think Arabs have some great culture, how stupid is this? Anyone ever wonder what happens to the bullets they shoot up in the air indiscriminately?) If the US Army were permitted to actually disarm them there would likely be a lot shooting in the marketplaces. And the solution to car bombs? Simple, till they decide to be civilized you take away their cars, too. What do they need cars for anyway? They are the ones who want to go back to the way it was int he 12th century. 2 of the Field commanders in VietNam went to the Pentagon with plans to end the war, militarily. Both were "promoted" to positions where they had no influence at all (the Peter Principle being put into action). The Pentagon (which is much more politics than military) then put in a commander who would not rock the boat but just ride it out. Interesting that everyone would recognize the names of these two generals but no one knows the name of the last Commander in VietNam. Iraq is not much different. The military is not running the show. The only real difference between Iraq and VietNam is that the politicians profiting from Iraq don't have to hide it like they did in VietNam. As for a pull-out. If it is anything less than a complete withdrawl, under force, just like the move into Baghdad there will be a blood-bath. As soon as the strength drops to an acceptable level AlQueda will launch full scale attacks on the remaining Americans. It is interesting to note that the US has never in it's entire history fought against any enemy who was a signatory to or follwed the Geneva and Hague conventions. We go into battle with one hand tied behind our backs everytime we go into battle. We will not fire on a mosque even though I see it as no better than a barn. And yet, the Iraqis who claim it as a churhc have no problem blowing them up. Hospitals? What better place for a military headquarters? They know we won't attack them. Mosques and hospitals are some of the biggest storage points for arms and munitions int he country. And people accuse us of "violating international law" and "being war criminals". I have personally watched the footage from the cameras in military aircraft where Iraqis after attacking US soldiers run into mosques to hide. And I have heard the radio communications where the helicopter is ordered to break-off contact because the building is a mosque only to watch the Iraqis run out, open fire on the soldiers and then run back inside for cover. And we are supposed to be the bad guys? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.376 ************************