INFO-VAX Sun, 15 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 383 Contents: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Re: EDT Replacement Re: EDT Replacement Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? RE: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: Upgrading from 7.3-2 to 8.3: seeking advice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:28:01 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: <1184466481.378964.267080@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 14, 12:24 am, "Paul Dembry" wrote: > Why not just cut the cable? Since HP has so much "spare" equipment, perhaps > I could take some of it off of their hands? > Paul While that may be a sufficient test, it lacks the drama of an explosion. It lacks the horror of permanently losing your equipment and data. It lacks the "raised-eye brow" "jaw-drop" factor. It lacks the attention-getting factor. (Exercise: Come up with your own missing factors.) It also fits better with the title: Disaster-proof. A cut wire could be fixed or replaced much faster than a blown-to-bits data center! A cut wire hardly counts as a disaster. And which wire? The wire connecting the data centers? The wires from the primary data center to the users? Both? How likely is that? Then consider what they actually did: Explosion. Kaboom! Kablooey!!! No doubt your primary data center is very suddenly lost and unrecoverable. Yikes!!! And there's no UPS- equivalent for being blown to bits! And after the shots of big winds, tornadoes and the like, a cut wire? I don't think so. Kind of a let-down, no? An explosion means word will spread around a lot more. I don't see people spreading the word about a cut wire: "Look! They cut the wire connecting the primary and backup sites!!! WOW!!!!!" No, I don't see it. A cut wire won't cause rubbernecking, for example. I'm not normally fond of destroying perfectly good equipment, but if it helps sell VMS (or slow its demise, even), I'm all for it. This is marketing, not just testing. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:01:23 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: <1184464883.265511.166960@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 14, 4:41 am, "P. Sture" wrote: > In article <46982E8D.38D51...@spam.comcast.net>, > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > "Michael D. Ober" wrote: > [=2E..] > > While we are here, I just found an old message here of mine which claims > that EDT can't handle files with > 65K records. This could be the OP's > problem. [With a Maxwell Smart voice] Would you believe 132059 lines? From OK, I checked it out. The repeat count has a limit of 32767, so you can substitute that for 32000. But the line limit: I looked up some old posts and saw aclaim that the number of lines in an EDT buffer is limited to 65536. In fact, I do hazily recall that from my days with VMS v5.5-2. But earlier today I made a file with 132059 lines!!! Most of them are blank lines, though. Apparently, EDT now has a larger line limit (Example run under VMS v6.1): $ ed funk.dat 1 LINE 1 *f e *sh buf =3DMAIN 132059 lines PASTE No lines *show version V3.12-03 COPYRIGHT =A9 DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION 1980 & 1991 * [=2E..] > > -- > Paul Sture AEF New subject!: Alternate Merge Theory ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:36:53 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: <46998845.9000909@comcast.net> David J Dachtera wrote: > "P. Sture" wrote: > >>In article , >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> >> >>>On 07/13/07 13:37, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> >>>>Martin Krischik wrote: >>>> >>>>>Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>And the lines are all less than 255 char. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>ROFL! How many years ago that this has been an issue on any editor I use. >>>>>Ahh the last I remember is EPM on OS/2 but with a 2499 character limit. >>>> >>>>Strange how I almost never need to edit a file with more than 255 >>>>characters per line! Text files tend to max out at 132 characters since >>>>that's the most you can print per line on most printers. I suppose >>>>there are exceptions but I would not need to remove my shoes to count >>>>the number of such files I needed to edit. >>>> >>>>Issues with the terminal driver might make editing such a file difficult >>>>even in cases where the editor supports it. >>> >>>EVE lets you SHIFT RIGHT and SHIFT LEFT to see extra-long lines. >> >>I have these definitions in my EVEINI.EVE: >> >>DEFINE KEY=GOLD/RIGHT SHIFT LEFT 8 >>DEFINE KEY=GOLD/LEFT SHIFT RIGHT 8 > > > Is there a quick/easy help or something that shows all the available commands > that would be acceptable in an EVEINI.EVE file? > > ...or must one wade through the EVE/TPU doc.'s to find that? > The last time I looked, and it was a LONG time ago, you had the dig it out of the EVE/TPU docs. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 2007 20:17:13 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <5fspa8F3ch775U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1184368295.432284.177340@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > On Jul 13, 1:29 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: b...@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:b...@cs.uofs.edu] >> >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> >> Sent: July 13, 2007 12:13 PM >> >> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >> Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? >> >> >> In article >> >> > >> p.net>, >> >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: b...@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:b...@cs.uofs.edu] >> >> >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> >> >> Sent: July 12, 2007 8:01 PM >> >> >> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >> >> Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? >> >> >> >> In article >> >> <1184282066.484375.205...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >> Doug Phillips writes: >> >> >> >> > Since "super computing" can involve different needs depending >> >> >> upon the >> >> >> > application, VMS certainly is worth considering for any CS lab >> >> >> that >> >> >> > wishes to offer a broad spectrum of experience to the student. >> >> >> >> Sorry guy, that ship has sailed. >> >> >> >> bill >> >> >> > Well, based on your previous comments, OpenVMS handles all of the >> >> mission c=3D >> >> > ritical business admin, scheduling and financial stuff in your >> >> University (=3D >> >> > Banner), so other readers on this list need to understand that >> >> you are only=3D >> >> > talking about one part of your specific environment. >> >> >> And what was the original poster talking about? >> >> > I just wanted to ensure that readers understand that OpenVMS plays a big pa= >> > rt in your University. You only support the technical side, so the Admin si= >> > de is not important to you as it is likely run by another group. >> >> They all know that. The point is the HP has droppped the ball on >> ACADEMIC use of VMS and like it or not, this is having and will >> continue to have an influence on the industry. > > Indeed. (More on that later.) > >> Do you think Unix >> would be where it is today if it had not been for its presence in >> academia? >> > > Acquisition cost might have had something to do with it. Not sure what you mean. If you think it was cheap or expensive. But I have the original AT&T license (yes, you needed an AT&T license to get BSD) for the University in my file folder and when you look at it as 1980's $$ it sure wasn't cheap for an experimental OS with no real support. Heck we didn't even have the INTERNET in those days. :-) > The Berkeley > project might have had some influence on other universities, too. Some of the bigger ones maybe. The ones that wanted to do similar types of research (like CMU Mach) but I imagine most wanted it for the available applications (there's that concept again!!) I know of one place in particular that I worked on a bid for Pr1me's against DEC and a VAX and they made it quite clear the VAX wold win because they wanted to run astronomy software from Kitt's Peak on it. > And > licensing costs and restrictions spawned the BSD If youn mean the later efforts that are still ongoing, I don't think that is the case. I think it is still just pure research top most of them. If they were really interested in competing as a lower priced alternative I think you would see more marketing. But the BSD's just don't seem to care all that much. > and Linux efforts, I can't speak for Linus, but his followers have hyped the hell out of Linux and definitely market it. > no? It's that danged money thing again. (More on that later.) > >> >> >> > And by the way, there is likely very few Universities that have a single OS= >> > platform as their primary technical platform on the server side. It is ver= >> > y much College specific as each College within the University tends to do w= >> > hatever they want. >> >> Well, by definition one is primary and the rest have lower positions. >> But again, I was not talking about servers in the back room. I (and >> I think Doug) was talking about the system the students use. > > Indeed I was. And not just use; the ones they learn from. (More on > that later.) > >> The one >> they learn to program on. The one they study in the Operating Systems >> Courses. The one they hear about in the classroom. That is where the >> mindset of the next generation of CIO's and IT managers is being formed. >> Not in the administrative datacenter or web hosting machine. >> > > Absolutely. Now, we've arrived at later (I'll snip the remainder of > this discussion) > > Bill, your effort to keep VMS in your CS dept has been commended here > before. The problem you were facing, as I see it, was that the only > VMS systems you could get hold of (because of budgetary constraints) > were old. The experience you were able to present to staff and student > was *not* on par with the more current Windows & *nix systems nor > especially the current VMS systems. Sorry, but that just is not true. I had an Alpha at one point but the VAX easily performed on a par with it (It was a VAX 7000-640 and it never had more than 3-4 simultaneous users. Performance was not an issue.) Plus, it had on ly one real purpose. it provided a COBOL compiler for a course where it was still thought that COBOL was the best language to have them use. I provided DECWindows so they had a comfortable environment and some of the time they did things from the command line on a telnet session just because it was faster. But in general, if there was some idea that the "experience" "was *not* on par with the more current Windows & *nix systems" it would only have been because there are no real applications of an equivalent nature. Not the performance of the box. > Unfortunately, this is true in > many places. Pitting an old VAX against a newer Sun, WinTel or LinTel > doesn't make for a fair race. Now, if you had the budget, or could > acquire a *modern* box with *modern* VMS and all its latest toys to > play with, I think your experience might have been different. I doubt it. When compared to a Windows (or Unix box running KDE or GNOME) what can even an Alpha or Itanium do that would impress anyone? No Office applications. Not even much graphics support at all. And likeit or not, glitz sells. > > So, that probably isn't going to happen unless HP sees an advantage to > selling VMS to other than the current niche. That's a shame. That your > staff knows or cares little about teaching VMS is a shame. The majority of my faculty know more about VMS than they do about Unix. Remember, as I have said before, this used to be a VMS academic shop. That they choose n ot to teach using it is totally a reflection on the industry perception of VMS. The people here won;t accept it, but it is a fact. To the majority of people in the industry today VMS is either irrelevant or thought to be no longer in existence. And the only one who can do anything about that doesn't seem to care. > Teaching > how hardware & software evolved to the present, Virtual Memory, file > systems, processor designs,... without teaching the history of VMS, > and where it is today, is like doing your genealogy without including > your own parents in the chart. Understanding VMS to see how Unix/Linux/ > Windows are trying to incorporate some of its concepts seems fairly > important to me, but I guess that's just me. To paraphrase an the old > saying; In order to see where a technology might be going, we must > know where it's been and how it got to where it is now. I am a strong believer in computer history as an important aspect. But even in academia I find myself in a very small minority. > > Could understanding how OpenVMS works really be considered a waste of > time? Aparently. They rank it up there with CPM and the S-100 bus in importance. > > While I'm sure you'll say "Isn't going to happen," what will happen if > VMS does regain popularity? With the current lower pricing and > increased availability of IA/OpenVMS to the Small/Med sized market, it > seems like more organizations might consider it, if given then chance. Who is going to make the decision? Someone who has never heard of it? Why would he risk his professional career on a totally unknown quantity? And, you still have the problem of applications and lack of a desktop presence. This is the environment everyone in the industry today has grown up on (well, except for dinosaurs like me) and it is what sells. > It really wouldn't take much of a push by the right people to move > OpenVMS into the mainstream of awareness. And, the more people hear > about something, the easier it is for them to justify buying it. When > any product becomes *suddenly popular*, its initial demand always > exceeds supply for a time, and each new buyer spawns more new buyers. > Like I said, I believe it wouldn't take much effort by the right > people. It certainly isn't impossible. HArd to say how much effort it wold take, but the point is moot anyway. It would have to be HP doing it and we have seen over and over again for how many years (and changes of hands) that they have no interest in doing it. Heck, we couldn't even convince them to come up with a truly workable (and legally acceptable) edu program. They give more latitude to hobbyists than they were willing to do for the edu market. Go figure!! > > Just some end-of-the week thoughts. > > Now, on the next start weekend attitude reset phase of this analog > system's boot-life. Have a good weekend. I'm hoping the weather holds off long enough for me to get in 18 holes with my daughter inthe morning!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:15:56 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: On 07/14/07 15:17, Bill Gunshannon wrote: [snip] > > Some of the bigger ones maybe. The ones that wanted to do similar types > of research (like CMU Mach) but I imagine most wanted it for the available > applications (there's that concept again!!) I know of one place in particular > that I worked on a bid for Pr1me's against DEC and a VAX and they made it > quite clear the VAX wold win because they wanted to run astronomy software > from Kitt's Peak on it. It was an important epiphany when I realized that "open bidding" can be so often twisted (and not necessarily for corrupt reasons). [snip] > > Sorry, but that just is not true. I had an Alpha at one point but the > VAX easily performed on a par with it (It was a VAX 7000-640 and it > never had more than 3-4 simultaneous users. Performance was not an > issue.) Plus, it had on ly one real purpose. it provided a COBOL > compiler for a course where it was still thought that COBOL was the > best language to have them use. I provided DECWindows so they had a I wonder if the VAX ISA's seeming affinity for COBOL and FORTRAN had anything to do with that. [snip] > > I doubt it. When compared to a Windows (or Unix box running KDE or GNOME) > what can even an Alpha or Itanium do that would impress anyone? No Office > applications. Not even much graphics support at all. And likeit or not, > glitz sells. That was another important epiphany. (Not that I didn't already know that glitz sells, but that sober, supposedly-intelligent men would not only be swayed by, but actively seek out glitz on *computers*.) [snip] -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 2007 00:27:29 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <5ft7vgF3e9c3hU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/14/07 15:17, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > [snip] >> >> Some of the bigger ones maybe. The ones that wanted to do similar types >> of research (like CMU Mach) but I imagine most wanted it for the available >> applications (there's that concept again!!) I know of one place in particular >> that I worked on a bid for Pr1me's against DEC and a VAX and they made it >> quite clear the VAX wold win because they wanted to run astronomy software >> from Kitt's Peak on it. > > It was an important epiphany when I realized that "open bidding" can > be so often twisted (and not necessarily for corrupt reasons). Me too. I learned a lesson that has stuck with me ever since and which has been stated here numerous times. Technical excellence does not mean a win. Sometimes all it takes is having the right name on the front of the box. DEC had it. Too bad they (and their follow-ons) chose to throw it all away. > > [snip] >> >> Sorry, but that just is not true. I had an Alpha at one point but the >> VAX easily performed on a par with it (It was a VAX 7000-640 and it >> never had more than 3-4 simultaneous users. Performance was not an >> issue.) Plus, it had on ly one real purpose. it provided a COBOL >> compiler for a course where it was still thought that COBOL was the >> best language to have them use. I provided DECWindows so they had a > > I wonder if the VAX ISA's seeming affinity for COBOL and FORTRAN had > anything to do with that. Not in this case. All the users knew was it was a box ruuning an OS I refered to as "VMS". The only one's who ever knew it was a VAX were those students curious enough to ask me for a "cook's tour" and an axplanation of what it was. And I doubt most of them knew what a VAX was anyway. An alpha would have been just as mysterious, though. > > [snip] >> >> I doubt it. When compared to a Windows (or Unix box running KDE or GNOME) >> what can even an Alpha or Itanium do that would impress anyone? No Office >> applications. Not even much graphics support at all. And likeit or not, >> glitz sells. > > That was another important epiphany. > > (Not that I didn't already know that glitz sells, but that sober, > supposedly-intelligent men would not only be swayed by, but actively > seek out glitz on *computers*.) > > [snip] Having given it some thought since I made my reply earlier today I think it is possible for VMS to make it's way back into the academic world. And, I think it could do a lot for the future of VMS. But, on the negative side it would take a considerable effort and investment, starting not with small schools like mine but with places like MIT, Stanford and even Berzerkely. BUt, I also know that I am just dreaming again. :-( bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 2007 00:50:10 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <5ft9a2F3e8h6kU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: July 13, 2007 2:30 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? >> > > > [snip ...] > > >> > >> > In the US University (20K+ students) where I just completed a >> server optimi=3D >> > zation and DC planning engagement, for their tech platform of >> choice they u=3D >> > sed multiple versions of MAC, Linux, Solaris, Windows, Fedora, >> NetWare and =3D >> > even a few instances of Irix. Yes, no OpenVMS. >> >> And this doesn't bother you? Do oyu think any of this could have >> been >> influenced by the fact that none of the decision makers had ever >> used >> (or in some cases even heard of) VMS? >> > > Does it bother me? > > Nope - I also deal with Customers that shudder at the thought of using UNIX= > or Windows as back end servers for mission critical stuff. > >> > >> > Bottom line is that the technical environment in most >> Universities is extre=3D >> > mely fragmented based on the College and-or Dept. you are talking >> to. That =3D >> > was one of the challenges I was asked to address i.e. how to >> bring all of t=3D >> > hese various environments back under some type of centralized >> control. >> >> I am only talking about one department. The CS department. That's >> the >> one that is going to most influence the direction of IT in the >> future. >> It really doesn't matter what is int he lab in the Chem department. >> Their >> graduates are not going to go on to be CIO's. Or Bio, or Nursing, >> or >> Secondary Ed. >> > > At the US University I was at, by far the biggest dept was Arts and Science= > , followed by Engineering. Both of those had fair to good ratings. CS was o= > ne of the Depts that had one of the worst Operations environments that we r= > eviewed. When asked about their archiving strategy, they answered "well, we= > are working on improving that area, but right now xxx takes tapes home eve= > ry couple of weeks and brings the old ones back..." .. I almost fell of my = > chair. > > Their central ITS dept was the best with formal strategies, well run Operat= > ions environments. > > So, please don't tell me that University CS depts reflect the future of com= > puting. Well, you have pretty much proven my point that HP (assuming you are typical at HP and not atypical) just doe not understand the edu world. CS department don't reflect, they drive. The next generation of CIO's and IT managers are going to go out with what they learned in their CS education. If all they know is C, what will they have their people use? Today, it is Java. Tomorrow, who knows, but you can bet it will be whatever the next programming language du jour is. > >> > >> > >> >> "VMS certainly is worth considering for any CS lab that >> >> wishes to offer a broad spectrum of experience to the student" >> >> >> >> Doesn't look like administrative use to me. And it was the >> >> academic >> >> that I was talking about when I I said "that ship has sailed". >> >> >> > >> > Just wanted to emphasize that as my note stated. >> >> Which is irrelevant to the discussion and just further shows how >> HP has failed to understand and as a result has totally >> underestimated >> the importance of a strong academic presence. >> >> > >> >> Name one school today where VMS is the primary (or even >> secondary) >> >> computer system for teaching computing in the CS department? >> >> >> > >> > I never stated it was a primary platform. It may be, but I do not >> have acce=3D >> > ss to Cust data. >> >> Name one CS department where you have been called in to pitch VMS. >> > > See my notes above on CS Depts. They also tend to change their technical st= > rategies with the latest trends. From what I understand, C and C++ and C# w= > ere being replaced with Java as the primary programming languages. And where did the IT world go? Surprise!! > > So, all these Java graduates are potential OpenVMS programmers. Simply copy= > the Java programs to OpenVMS Java environment and run. Stability, clusteri= > ng and no monthly security patches to worry about. Nice picture. > >:-) Yeah, well here's another surprise. They are pushing Java cause they used in college. They are not using VMS in college, they are using Windows and Linux. Hmmmm..... What direction is the industry taking? > > Note - I usually don't do Pre-sales. > >> > >> > Course, see above about the hugely fractured technical >> environments at most=3D >> > Universities. It usually depends on the College or Dept. >> >> See what I said above. For the sake of this discussion only one >> department at a University matters. the CS department. If other >> departments have "hugely fractured technical environments" it's >> because the "technical environment" doesn't matter to them, just >> the applications. Ah, there's that word again. I just took a STAT >> course over the summer that had a strong MINITAB requirement. Do >> you remember doing that on VMS? I do. But not any more. SPSS? >> BMDP? SLAM? Those are all the other departments care about. >> But the CS department is where the future is being directed. And >> that direction is in any direction but VMS nowdays. Not really a >> good thing one would think. >> > > See my notes above on CS. > >> > >> >> > >> >> > Other Universities are also using OpenVMS in various ways: >> >> > http://wasd.vsm.com.au/other/uma_2tb.html >> >> >> >> Looks like they use VMS for their webserver. Doesn't say >> anything >> >> about students actually learning about VMS in the CS department. >> >> Or even having access to a VSM machine beyond the web interface >> >> which could be anything without the user knowing or caring. >> >> >> >> Now, Spanish is not one of my stronger languages but unless they >> >> hide >> >> it under Mathematics, Electronics or Engineering I could not see >> >> where >> >> they even have a CS Department. >> >> >> >> Oh wait, they have an English language web page (well, sort of.) >> >> A bit of computer engineering but no Computer Science or even >> >> Computer Information Systems. Sorry, Kerry, but looks like they >> >> have no academic VMS either. >> >> >> > >> > You may be right, but since you have zero knowledge of the >> University, that=3D >> > is pure FUD based on your UNIX OS religion and preferences. >> >> I have as much as anyone else except for the staff there. There is >> no >> mention of VMS anywhere on any of their pages. You pointed this >> out as >> a sign of a VMS presence in academia. Where is it? Running a >> webserver >> on VMS hardly counts as VMS really brings nothing advantageous to >> the art. >> Where does it say that they use VMS for academic use and that the >> students >> will leave there with "broad spectrum of experience" that includes >> VMS? >> > > If I were in charge of IT, I would fire any internal programmer that publis= > hed details on the company internal computing environment on the external w= > eb site. Imho, that is a gross security violation. That includes any platfo= > rm details. > > Most secure environments do not publish much, if anything about their inter= > nal computing strategies. This isn't the Pentagon, it's a college. And only the academic side of that. We have to tell people what we run. They come to open-houses and ask. Can you imagine the reaction when we said "none of your business"? > >> > >> >> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/news/ospp_turin.html >> >> >> >> That's HP talking about something that Politecnico di Torino >> >> doesn't >> >> think is important enough to even have on their web page. No >> real >> >> CS department, but they have a Computer Engineering departmetn >> >> which >> >> seems to stress hardware design rather than software or or pure >> >> CS. >> >> No mention of this project there either. I would guess they had >> >> about >> >> as much luck getting their project going as I did here. >> >> >> >> So, how long does something have to be dead before HP stops >> touting >> >> it >> >> as a success? >> >> >> > >> > Give it a rest. You have next to zero interest in hearing >> anything but that=3D >> > UNIX is the answer for all University technical computing >> requirements. >> >> How can you be such an idiot. I fought to keep VMS here in the CS >> department (very likely to expense of my career) long after >> everyone >> else had given up on it. I put in the extra work on my own time to >> keep VMS machines running here. I convinced Professors to use them >> even when alternatives existed on our more common platforms. It's >> a >> damn sight more than anyone from HP has done. >> > > Well, I appreciate the effort, but perhaps you can clarify something - > > You keep saying that, but then in your comments, you give the view that abo= > ut all that was provided was a bare bones platform running OpenVMS. Perhaps= > I missed it (but willing to be corrected), but did you provide a UNIX styl= > e interface option as well as the std English friendly std with the latest = > programming languages like Java, Perl, PHP etc etc ? What about freeware SQ= > L db's like MySQL or freeware middleware like JBoss? Well, you can knock some of that of because it's Java and we all kow there is not now and never will be Java on a VAX. But, you also make some pretty strong assumtions. I said all they wanted to use was COBOL. Not that that was all I gave them. I give them DECWindows (which is what most of them used most of the time). I also loaded every compiler on the LP Disks. I load all the program development tools. All the editors (and a few freeware ones the students seemed to like). And, just like on all my other servers all the faculty and students know that, unlike the datacenter, I will load anything they want as long as it doesn't cost money and won't break the machine for other users. > > Do you really understand the benefits of active-active clustering with a na= > tive common file system and batch sub-system that allows programs, batch jo= > bs and DCL routines to run against the same data at the same time on any sy= > stem with no third party prog's like expensive Oracle RAC in the mix? Or th= > e benefits of not having to worry about 5-20 security patches per month? Jeezz Kerry, give it a rest. None of that has any relevance to the discussion at hand, even if it were true. I don't have the budget for "active-active clustering with a native common file system and batch sub-system that allows programs, batch jobs and DCL routines to run against the same data at the same time on any system with no third party prog's like expensive Oracle RAC in the mix". And it wold really be overkill for my 14 students. They needed yhings like a wordprocessor and spreadsheet a bit more than "active-active clustering". And, I don't know how to break it to you but I have never had to worry about your "5-20 security patches per month". But then, everybody keeps telling you that, you just don't want to hear it. > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > And I regularly see University of.. or College of.. on >> >> participant .sig fil=3D3D >> >> > es in this newsgroup and others like Multinet, Rdb etc. >> >> >> >> Maybe like all the people who have responded to Dadid Turner we >> >> could do >> >> an unofficial poll of c.o.v users. How many people here with >> .edu >> >> in >> >> their email address are at schools that still use VMS as their >> >> primary >> >> (Secondary? Tertiary?) computing systems for teaching Computer >> >> Science >> >> or even Computer Inofrmatuion Systems? >> >> >> > >> > As I stated earlier, c.o.v. is only a small, micro subset of >> Custs who use =3D >> > OpenVMS. >> >> Yeah, but it is the mmicro subset that seems to be most fanatical >> about >> VMS and its continued survival. So, raise your hands people. Who, >> from >> the .edu community here, still has active CS or CIS courses that >> are >> done on VMS or talk about VMS as a part of the instruction? >> >> > >> > Most of the Rdb and Multinet newsgroup users do not even >> participate on com=3D >> > p.os.vms. >> >> Feel free to ask them the same question. >> >> > >> >> <.......> >> >> >> >> >:-) >> >> > >> >> > And if one looks at the future of education, ultra high >> >> availability and se=3D3D >> >> > curity is coming big time, because of all the remote courses >> >> being offered =3D3D >> >> > all year around. >> >> >> >> Again, you are talking about administrative use and I (and Doug) >> >> were >> >> talking about academic use. of course, without the academic use >> >> less >> >> and less people will even know what VMS is and we can already >> see >> >> the >> >> results of that. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > As an example - My son is taking a computer animation course >> >> (Animationment=3D3D >> >> > or.com). Totally online. It is a course being driven by >> >> instructors from Di=3D3D >> >> > sney, Pixar etc as they could not get enough of the right >> types >> >> of skills t=3D3D >> >> > hey needed. His classmates are from around North America, >> Europe >> >> and Asia P=3D3D >> >> > acific. It is not uncommon where he has to be online for class >> >> discussions =3D3D >> >> > and lectures at 9:00pm at night. It is a compressed 18 month >> >> course with 6 =3D3D >> >> > x 3 month sessions and 1 week between sessions. Huge advantage >> >> though is th=3D3D >> >> > at he can literally do this course anywhere there is a high >> speed >> >> Internet =3D3D >> >> > connection. (He has moved several times and it does not impact >> >> his course). >> >> >> >> And how much has he learned about VMS so far? Does he even know >> >> what the >> >> underlying technology is (and I would bet it ain't VMS). What's >> >> more, does >> >> he care. >> >> >> > >> > Again, you are missing the point. >> >> I'm missing the point!!!! Good grief. You have misswed the point >> of >> this thread since the beginning, >> >> "VMS certainly is worth considering for any CS lab that >> wishes to offer a broad spectrum of experience to the student" >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Imho, that is where Universities are also heading for many of >> >> their course =3D3D >> >> > offerings (not all, of course) as they can not afford to have >> >> huge infrastr=3D3D >> >> > uctures sitting idle for numerous months with no student >> activity >> >> generatin=3D3D >> >> > g $`s. >> >> >> >> None of which requires VMS and being as none of the people >> involved >> >> have >> >> ever heard of VMS it is likely going to be a hard sell. How are >> >> you going >> >> to sell VMS to a Professor teaching animation when you don't >> even >> >> have >> >> graphics capability? Or are you announcing the return of VMS to >> >> the >> >> desktop workstation market? >> >> > > More client stuff. Clients and servers are two different worlds. > > See my previous comments. > > You seem to think CS has a much bigger influence that I think it does. Its = > likely your main focus is the client side of a CS dept at the University yo= > u are at. > > Fine. Nothing wrong with that. Lets agree to disagree. OK, I give up. But I think from this everybody can see why HP is not in the edu world and why there is no chance of that ever changing. Sad really. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 2007 01:05:29 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <5fta6pF3dn5khU1@mid.individual.net> In article <000301c7c62a$fd2f9ab0$f78ed010$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > I tend to disagree Ron. We take in a lot of kids with non-CS majors. The > next generation comes from spending 2 to three hours per day with them over > the next --> 3 to 5 years <--, mentoring them through projects and teaching > them to deal with the real world. > > Generally, the ones we get that are CS grads seem to know a LOT about > Microsoft frippery (such as how to use different fonts in word, or excel, or > how to parse XML in Visual Basic) but very little about the day to day > operations (backup, security, data integrity), project management or > definition, dealing with stakeholders, or just how much work programming > actually is. (Okay, fun work, but work non the less...) > > I am finding the CS education *I* received is far different from what they > get today. We had one interview the other day where the person had never > even be *exposed* to compiler theory, must less required to build a > compiler! Yeesh- we *all* had to do that - in the 1970s. And the only > languages they were exposed to in their entire program were Visual Basic, > Visual C++, and Perl. No classes on Data Structures even. > > They PAID for this?? I think you need topay more attention to hwere they went to school. Maybe even look to see if the program at their school was acredited. But then, this is the kind of thing I have been warning the faculty here about for a couple of years now. It seems today every two-bit junior college (and a whole bunch of vo-tech schools) now have "Computer Science" programs. Everybody wants a piece of the pie and given the difference in the difficulty of the programs, where do you think the students are going to go if they find it doesn't matter where their degree came from? > > Well, I suppose not- they probably get public grants to pay for this, so we > paid for it out of taxes. (*sigh*) Not necessarily. There are a lot of private schools with un-acredited programs. Why would you think they were un-acredited? :-) > > We do get some really bright kids in, but the schools are failing to educate > them on the basic things that they need to understand, telling them "Oh, > nobody ever has to know about the HARDWARE anymore- everyone uses Java, > which doesn't CARE about the hardware." See above. Our students all have to take Data Structures, File Processing, Machine Organization and a whole nuch more. Plus needing electives in the major as well. Oh yeah and a projects course where they have to pick a project carry it through from concept to finished project. With regular presentations on their progress. Acreditation does make a difference. I just cut the rest because I really don't know what to say about it. I can't imagine what professors your talking to or what junior colleges you are hiring people from but it sure doesn't match my experience and I have been in academia for 18 years. All I can say is the school does make a difference. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 2007 21:03:59 -0500 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <+5nGa1wMaMSJ@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > I'm not too sure that 20/20 hindsight is required here. I was putting > checkpoints into batch jobs for restart purposes nearly 30 years ago. Almost 40 years for me. I even found that in the relatively primitive 16-bit IBM environment I was working in I could save the entire batch partition and roll it back in later on. Became the basis of a timesharing system that a friend/mentor/coworker later developed for the IBM 1800. -- George Cornelius cornelius(at)eisner.decus.org cornelius(at)mayo.edu > -- > Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:18:36 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:01:35 -0700, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/14/07 19:27, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: > [snip] >>> [snip] >>>> Sorry, but that just is not true. I had an Alpha at one point but the >>>> VAX easily performed on a par with it (It was a VAX 7000-640 and it >>>> never had more than 3-4 simultaneous users. Performance was not an >>>> issue.) Plus, it had on ly one real purpose. it provided a COBOL >>>> compiler for a course where it was still thought that COBOL was the >>>> best language to have them use. I provided DECWindows so they had a >>> I wonder if the VAX ISA's seeming affinity for COBOL and FORTRAN had >>> anything to do with that. >> Not in this case. All the users knew was it was a box ruuning an OS >> I refered to as "VMS". The only one's who ever knew it was a VAX were >> those students curious enough to ask me for a "cook's tour" and an >> axplanation of what it was. And I doubt most of them knew what a VAX >> was anyway. An alpha would have been just as mysterious, though. > > What I meant was that maybe the later/faster VAXen did a better job of > running FORTRAN & COBOL code than early Alphas, because those compilers > were finely tuned to a CISC instruction set that was "friendly" to those > two languages. > I can tell you that was certainly true for PL/I. For the early alphas, I found they needed to clock 3 x of the VAX to offer the same performance, and owing to the weaker isntruction set on Alpha you need bigger I/O bandwidths, larger caches and the like owing to the code bloat, which was typically 2.5 to 4 times that of VAX. Abandoning VAX was a serious blunder. Had VAX been continued (and extended to 64 bit architecture) it could certainly clock at the same frequency as others, let's say 4 GHz (IBM will soon have 6GHz) and that would run the same as a 12GHZ Alpha! -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:52:17 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <000f01c7c693$89f649e0$9de2dda0$@com> Bill- you talk through your nose without facts. Try Baylor and the University of Texas. The particular interviewee I was speaking of is perhaps an a little extreme compared to the norm, but not that much, and his degree was awarded by U.T. I daresay that either of those schools is more than the equal of Scranton. I know both of them turn out some top flight scientists, physicists, and mathematicians. I *know* that because I *know*, personally, some of those selfsame people. Further, the school makes very little difference; it is the attitude and ability of the professor or instructor that really count. I will again point out that schools in other countries emphasize the areas that the schools here tend to deride or find "uninteresting", with the result their students are better qualified, and better motivated, and WORK HARDER than the kids unfortunate enough to get the self destructive instruction offered here. I did not point out, but will, that some kids coming out of those schools really do have it together, but there is a cadre of bull headed mulish stubborn people who insist everyone who does not agree with them is a moron or had not possibly thought through the problem. Unfortunately, the kids get exposed to this and it sticks. My buddies who work in Mental Health tell me is similar to the effect an abusive parent has on a sensitive and impressionable young child. Debilitating. Should sound familiar to you, judging by your public statements here. > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:05 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? > > In article <000301c7c62a$fd2f9ab0$f78ed010$@com>, > "Paul Raulerson" writes: > > I tend to disagree Ron. We take in a lot of kids with non-CS majors. > The > > next generation comes from spending 2 to three hours per day with > them over > > the next --> 3 to 5 years <--, mentoring them through projects and > teaching > > them to deal with the real world. > > > > Generally, the ones we get that are CS grads seem to know a LOT about > > Microsoft frippery (such as how to use different fonts in word, or > excel, or > > how to parse XML in Visual Basic) but very little about the day to > day > > operations (backup, security, data integrity), project management or > > definition, dealing with stakeholders, or just how much work > programming > > actually is. (Okay, fun work, but work non the less...) > > > > I am finding the CS education *I* received is far different from what > they > > get today. We had one interview the other day where the person had > never > > even be *exposed* to compiler theory, must less required to build a > > compiler! Yeesh- we *all* had to do that - in the 1970s. And the only > > languages they were exposed to in their entire program were Visual > Basic, > > Visual C++, and Perl. No classes on Data Structures even. > > > > They PAID for this?? > > I think you need topay more attention to hwere they went to school. > Maybe > even look to see if the program at their school was acredited. But > then, > this is the kind of thing I have been warning the faculty here about > for > a couple of years now. It seems today every two-bit junior college > (and > a whole bunch of vo-tech schools) now have "Computer Science" programs. > Everybody wants a piece of the pie and given the difference in the > difficulty > of the programs, where do you think the students are going to go if > they > find it doesn't matter where their degree came from? > > > > > Well, I suppose not- they probably get public grants to pay for this, > so we > > paid for it out of taxes. (*sigh*) > > Not necessarily. There are a lot of private schools with un-acredited > programs. Why would you think they were un-acredited? :-) > > > > > We do get some really bright kids in, but the schools are failing to > educate > > them on the basic things that they need to understand, telling them > "Oh, > > nobody ever has to know about the HARDWARE anymore- everyone uses > Java, > > which doesn't CARE about the hardware." > > See above. Our students all have to take Data Structures, File > Processing, > Machine Organization and a whole nuch more. Plus needing electives in > the > major as well. Oh yeah and a projects course where they have to pick a > project carry it through from concept to finished project. With > regular > presentations on their progress. > > Acreditation does make a difference. > > > I just cut the rest because I really don't know what to say about it. > I can't imagine what professors your talking to or what junior colleges > you are hiring people from but it sure doesn't match my experience and > I have been in academia for 18 years. > > All I can say is the school does make a difference. > > bill > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three > wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:52:31 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: On 07/14/07 21:18, Tom Linden wrote: [snip] > 4 times that of VAX. Abandoning VAX was a serious blunder. Had VAX been > continued (and extended to 64 bit architecture) it could certainly clock at > the same frequency as others, let's say 4 GHz (IBM will soon have 6GHz) and > that would run the same as a 12GHZ Alpha! Didn't we have this same conversation last month? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:22:46 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Upgrading from 7.3-2 to 8.3: seeking advice Message-ID: <1184462566.981228.133070@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 14, 4:27 am, "H Vlems" wrote: > Hi Phillip, two systems (at home of course) run 8.3. One system was a new > installation, on an Alpha Server 1200, the other was an upgrade from 7.3-2 > on a Compaq Prof. Workstation 1000. The XP1000 complains at power on that > its firmware is not at the required version. That's been a problem with the XP1000 and OpenVMS for several versions. Don't worry about it. The table OpenVMS uses to decide on the minimum required FW version doesn't work right on the XP1000. John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.383 ************************