INFO-VAX Thu, 02 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 419 Contents: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Re: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Re: Enabling control_y Re: Enabling control_y Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? New Python 2.5.1 kit (V1.3-0) Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: VAX 3100-80 hangs during backup RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: What does GEM mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:12:40 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Message-ID: <1185995560.820118.283830@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> hello, in libxml2 2.6.29 (and in other versions also I think), in tree.c, there are 2 functions named xmlBufferWriteCHAR &. xmlBufferWriteChar I compile with /NAME=(AS_IS,SHORTENED) but the compiler change le name of the second function to xmlBufferWriteChar2 $ pipe analayze/obj/section=all | search sys$pipe xmlBufferWriteChar 00039838 00000D38 Symbol 141. (0000008D) "xmlBufferWriteCHAR" 00039850 00000D50 Symbol 142. (0000008E) "xmlBufferWriteChar2" 00037a2b 00000c5b name: "xmlBufferWriteCHAR" 00037a46 00000c76 name: "xmlBufferWriteChar2" $ analyze/object tree.obj/interactive This is an OpenVMS IA64 (Elf format) object file Module Identification Information, in note section 2. Module name: "tree" Module version: "V1.0" Creation date/time: " 1-AUG-2007 18:22" Language name: "HP C V7.2-001" OpenVMS 8.3 on Itanium did I missed some important option of the C compiler or is it impossible to 2 functions with such names ? Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 14:33:57 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Message-ID: <07080114335774_20200346@antinode.org> From: Pierre > in libxml2 2.6.29 (and in other versions also I think), in tree.c, > there are 2 functions named xmlBufferWriteCHAR &. xmlBufferWriteChar > > I compile with /NAME=(AS_IS,SHORTENED) but the compiler change le name > of the second function to xmlBufferWriteChar2 > > $ pipe analayze/obj/section=all | search sys$pipe xmlBufferWriteChar > 00039838 00000D38 Symbol 141. (0000008D) > "xmlBufferWriteCHAR" > 00039850 00000D50 Symbol 142. (0000008E) > "xmlBufferWriteChar2" > 00037a2b 00000c5b name: "xmlBufferWriteCHAR" > 00037a46 00000c76 name: "xmlBufferWriteChar2" > [...] > did I missed some important option of the C compiler or is it > impossible to 2 functions with such names ? CC /LIST /SHOW = (ALL, NOMESS) and look in the listing file(s). Knowing nothing, I'd assume that someone has inserted a #define somewhere to fix the ambiguous name problem without using /NAMES = AS_IS, but it didn't get used everywhere. If /NAMES = AS_IS changed xmlBufferWriteChar to xmlBufferWriteChar2, I'd be more than a little bit amazed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:12:39 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: Re: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Message-ID: <1185999159.065283.16780@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> > CC /LIST /SHOW = (ALL, NOMESS) > and look in the listing file(s). > > Knowing nothing, I'd assume that someone has inserted a #define > somewhere to fix the ambiguous name problem without using /NAMES = > AS_IS, but it didn't get used everywhere. If /NAMES = AS_IS changed > xmlBufferWriteChar to xmlBufferWriteChar2, I'd be more than a little bit > amazed. oops. that's the proof that 10PM is too late to compile C programs. :-| thanks again. Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 2007 20:41:00 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Message-ID: David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > Before I tell my customer he has messed up his tape drive He tried backing > up to a DLTIV tape in a SDLT1 tape drive) I was wondering if I am correct > in the assumption that you can only READ DLTIV and not write to them. > I don't really want to try this here as they are still not yet cheap. > Comments?!? Correct, and SDLT220 drive can only read a DLT IV tape. For SDLT320 and newer drives you can't read DLT IV media. Which is why we still have a Jukebox with DLT7000 drives (for reading). However, I don't believe attempting to write will damage the drive, it should simply not work. Zane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:26:34 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Message-ID: THKS CONFIRMED ME SUSPICIONS DAVID wrote in message news:f8qr4s029o3@enews1.newsguy.com... > David Turner, Island Computers wrote: >> Before I tell my customer he has messed up his tape drive He tried >> backing >> up to a DLTIV tape in a SDLT1 tape drive) I was wondering if I am correct >> in the assumption that you can only READ DLTIV and not write to them. > >> I don't really want to try this here as they are still not yet cheap. > >> Comments?!? > > Correct, and SDLT220 drive can only read a DLT IV tape. For SDLT320 and > newer drives you can't read DLT IV media. > > Which is why we still have a Jukebox with DLT7000 drives (for reading). > > However, I don't believe attempting to write will damage the drive, it > should simply not work. > > Zane > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:03:21 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Enabling control_y Message-ID: apogeusistemas@gmail.com wrote in news:1185982217.018868.111370@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > In my job I create a command procedure with > $ set control_y > and > $ on control_y then goto bypass > > but anytimes when I issue > set h vax2 > and run the procedure, control_y doesn´t work. > I´m using a VT100 terminal. > I´ll put set term/nopastrhru in the procedure. > Thanks ! > That should be: $ SET CONTROL=Y It is required to use the "equal" character and not the "underscore" character. It is unclear whether your "set host" command is in the command procedure, but I would recommend *always* using the full text of a command in command procedures, so that it continues to function in an expected fashion in future versions of the operating system. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:36:39 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Enabling control_y Message-ID: <1186011399.445561.144900@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 6:03 pm, Tad Winters wrote: > apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote innews:1185982217.018868.111370@d55g2000hs= g=2Egooglegroups.com: > > > In my job I create a command procedure with > > $ set control_y > > and > > $ on control_y then goto bypass > > > but anytimes when I issue > > set h vax2 > > and run the procedure, control_y doesn=B4t work. > > I=B4m using a VT100 terminal. > > I=B4ll put set term/nopastrhru in the procedure. > > Thanks ! > > That should be: > $ SET CONTROL=3DY > It is required to use the "equal" character and not the "underscore" > character. Amazingly, SET CONTROL_Y also works because it actually is the full keyword! I checked this using VERB. It also helps that SET CONTROL=3DY is the default if you don't specify Y and/or T as a value. > It is unclear whether your "set host" command is in the command procedure, > but I would recommend *always* using the full text of a command in command > procedures, so that it continues to function in an expected fashion in > future versions of the operating system. It is also good to spell out the commands to facilitate SEARCHes and because it is also partly self-commenting do to so. It makes the procedure more readable. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:57:20 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: <7a1bc$46b0d793$cef8887a$3488@TEKSAVVY.COM> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6630/6630pro_003.html > > The procedure prompts you to specify which drive holds the > distribution kit. Enter the device name for the source drive. One would have to look at the source code of the "temporary" startup.com that is supplied with the B saveset (which then continues the installation after you reboot) to see how it does it. If it is smart enough, it would do an F$PARSE to extract the device name, then mount that device, and then use the full spec (ok, device + diretory to be sure!) for the backup oprations to restore the subsequent savesets. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 14:16:50 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: <07080114165006_20200346@antinode.org> From: JF Mezei > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6630/6630pro_003.html > > > > The procedure prompts you to specify which drive holds the > distribution kit. Enter the device name for the source drive. > > One would have to look at the source code of the "temporary" startup.com > that is supplied with the B saveset (which then continues the > installation after you reboot) to see how it does it. So, look at it, and report back when you _know_ something. > If it is smart enough, it would do an F$PARSE to extract the device > name, then mount that device, and then use the full spec (ok, device + > diretory to be sure!) for the backup oprations to restore the subsequent > savesets. And if it were that smart, it would probably be smart enough to ask for a directory specification instead of a device specification. But feel free to investigate, and be sure to let us all know if you discover that the documantation and interactive instructions are all wrong. In the words of Nathan Arizona (Sr.), "Yeah, and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass a-hoppin'. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:15:01 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: <1186006501.886779.278340@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 3:12 am, "P. Sture" wrote: > In article <07073105454533_20200...@antinode.org>, > s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > > > > From: "P. Sture" > > > > > For the record, VMS VAX installation save sets (VMS%%%.%) must be in > > > > the [000000] directory, or else the installation will fail. (VMS%%%.B > > > > may be an exception, when it's handled manually, outside the normal > > > > installation procedure, but it's normally found in the same place as the > > > > others, and they must be in [000000].) > > > > Is the [000000] restriction still true? Maybe I'm dreaming, but I > > > thought it had been relaxed at some point. > > > According to the "OpenVMS VAX Version 7.3 Upgrade and Installation > > Manual", > > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6630/6630pro_003.html > > > The procedure prompts you to specify which drive holds the > > distribution kit. Enter the device name for the source drive. > > > If all you can specify is a device name, where will it look for the > > files? > > > In "Chapter 5 Before Upgrading the OpenVMS VAX Operating System", > > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6630/6630pro_006.html > > > it still says: > > > 5.1.7 Save Set Location > > > If you move the OpenVMS VAX save sets from the distribution media > > to the system disk or some other disk before beginning the > > upgrade, the save sets must be in the [000000] directory of the > > disk, or the upgrade will fail. > > > [...] > > > But if you can demonstrate that it works when they're somewhere else, > > I'll be happy to gain enlightenment. > > I must indeed have been dreaming. I stand corrected. > Maybe I'm dreaming, too, but I'd swear I've used rooted logicals for upgrades from save sets that I've copied down from tape to a disk subdirectory. Much water has passed under the bridge since when, though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:30:56 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: Steven M. Schweda wrote: > And if it were that smart, it would probably be smart enough to ask > for a directory specification instead of a device specification. But > feel free to investigate, and be sure to let us all know if you discover > that the documantation and interactive instructions are all wrong. What I meant to say is that conceptually, it shouldn't be impossible for the installation procedure to be able to support on-disk savesets that are not in the root directory. (with the caveat that they couldn't be stored inside the [.sys*] nor under the [vms$common] since those may be manipulated during and upgrade procedure and access to the saveset would not longer be possible since they would now be under some different temporary directory name. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:35:58 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: <680df$46b134ff$cef8887a$22367@TEKSAVVY.COM> Doug Phillips wrote: > Maybe I'm dreaming, too, but I'd swear I've used rooted logicals for > upgrades from save sets that I've copied down from tape to a disk > subdirectory. Consider a case where an upgrade may need a couple of reboots during the upgrade. The rooted logical may work for the first phase, but after the first reboot, the rooted logical will no longer be available. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:51:49 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: <1186023109.890621.39750@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 8:35 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > Maybe I'm dreaming, too, but I'd swear I've used rooted logicals for > > upgrades from save sets that I've copied down from tape to a disk > > subdirectory. > > Consider a case where an upgrade may need a couple of reboots during the > upgrade. The rooted logical may work for the first phase, but after the > first reboot, the rooted logical will no longer be available. I still find definitions like: $assign/sys/exec $disk2:[updates.] updir: or such in some "old" systartup's, but maybe I used that for something else;-) At the point when the system reboots, if it needs to, it's usually finished with the source device, isn't it? At least I don't remember ever needing the tape after the system rebooted except to install another different update. Updates from CD's might be different, but I still don't recall any that need the source media available to finish the update after reboot. Everything the update needs should have been placed on the target disk before reboot. After reboot, updates usually just clean up old files & temporary work space & maybe do a verification. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 00:15:28 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/30/07 02:15, Dirk Munk wrote: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> AEF wrote: >>>> It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to >>>> destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! >>> They acceptance of Israel's existance will be the RESULT of succesful >>> negotiations. The USA/Israel require them to accept Israel as a >>> pre-condition for negotiations. >> The state of Israel exists since the UN more or less established it in >> 1948. The existence of the state of Israel or acceptance of this fact is >> not negotiable. >> >> Almost no one in the middle east is interested in solving the conflict >> between Israel and the Palestinians. Why not? Simple, corrupt and >> autocratic leaders love to use this conflict to distract their own >> people from the problems in their own country. It is the oldest game in >> politics, find something abroad to distract the attention of the people >> from your own failures. And it works perfectly. Poverty in your own >> country? Look at the Americans and Europeans! They help the Israeli >> against the Palestinians! They hate Muslems! That is why we are poor! >> >> Who is paying the salaries of the Palestinian civil servants? Not the >> rich Arab countries or other "Muslem brother states". No, the US and the >> EU, those damned friends of Israel. > > A man after my own heart. > > Are you *sure* that you are European? Or were you stolen at birth > from a Texas hospital and spirited across the pond? Quite sure, thanks. :-) There is no such thing as "the Palestinians". In recent times there has never been a consolidated Palestinian leadership. There is Fatah, rotten and corrupt to the core, and there is Hamas. The problem is that Hamas is doing a lot of good things for the Palestinian people with money from rather unpleasant Arab states. They have hospitals, social care, schools and so on. In return they have to preach hatred against Israel and destabilize any peace process. You get nothing for free. Besides these two there are all kind of other Palestinians groups out of control by the two main parties. In the middle of this is the poor Palestinian people, and I do mean that. The average Palestinian man woman or child hasn't seen peace or happiness in decades. Generations grew up in misery. They are used as pawns in a very cynical political chess game. > >> Now Israel isn't doing very much to improve the situation either. If you >> are a Palestinian or a Israeli citizen of Arab origin, and you can't get >> water from the tap while Jewish people are splashing in their private >> swimming pool just a few hundred yards from your home, you will not get >> the idea that you get treated fairly by the Israeli government. And this >> is just a small example of the rather foolish way Israel is fueling the >> conflict. > > This is interesting and sad. Do you have a reference, so that I > might get more detail? > Now you know why I am from Europe and not the US. The Netherlands have always strongly supported Israel in its struggle to survive, and that included for instance sending Patriot missiles to Israel during the first Gulf war. I totally agree with this all. However we also see that Israel is not treating its Arab citizens or the Palestinians the way it should, far from it. That is what we also get to see on television and in newspapers over here, not just pro Israel talk. The water problem is just a very small example. Israel does numerous unnecessary small things (and big things as well) that make life for Arabs very unpleasant. In the end this attitude will backfire and Israel will regret this stupidity. By the way, did you know that not even all Jews are treated equal in Israel? There are 'classes' of Jews, it all depends where your family came from. Did they come from some poor underdeveloped country, and they hardly had any education? Then you are a second class Jew I'm afraid. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:08:06 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186009686.362960.288590@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 6:59 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/31/07 18:36, AEF wrote: > > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote: > > >>> Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>>> [snip] > >>>>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the > >>>>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty > >>>>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The > >>>>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while, > >>>>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia. > >>>> Three words: Theo van Gogh. > >>>>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming > >>>>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did > >>>>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just > >>>>> their first really successful one. > >>>> Two more words: Achille Lauro. > >>> ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews > >>> of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire > >>> world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness. > >> Boy do I agree with that!!!!! > > >> Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend > >> over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc. > > >> The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than > >> "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol. > > >> [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic > >> there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the > >> neolithic era. > > >> -- > >> Ron Johnson, Jr. > >> Jefferson LA USA > > [...] > > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too. > > Sure. But they weren't the ones taking the offensive. How do you know they didn't participate? > We'll never know if they urged the counter-attack. > > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. Until 9/11, > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11 > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. Are > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? > > Of course not. You're merging me with JF, and it's affecting your > judgment. How did JF get involved in this? Wasn't it David you replied to? > > > Don't forget > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did > > you expect them to do? > > Act like sheep, and hope that The Government Saved Them. C'mon. Most hijackings end up with few people being killed. Why should the people on the 9/11 flights have thought any differently? They didn't know they were going to fly into buildings. C'mon. > > In how many school shootings or bank robberies have the people who > had the capacity to Do Something not done it, because they've been > conditioned by The Authorities to Wait For Rescue? Lots. I'm not aware of any. I do recall the two thugs with massive firepower in LA shooting left and right after robbing a bank and even the cops had trouble stopping them. > > Three cheers for Liviu Librescu and the various others who > sacrificed themselves to save others at VA Tech. > > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical. > > As stated earlier, you are misinterpreting me. Whatever. > > > Ron, > > > Your other posts in this thread are very good. Thanks! > > > AEF > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:11:20 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186009880.411374.178300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 12:52 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1185925991.267428.175...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 31, 1:30 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1185761687.729407.239...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 29, 8:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >> >> AEF wrote: > >> >> > It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to > >> >> > destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! > > >> >> They acceptance of Israel's existance will be the RESULT of succesful > >> >> negotiations. The USA/Israel require them to accept Israel as a > >> >> pre-condition for negotiations. > > >> >Ridiculous. How do you negotiate with someone who wants to destroy > >> >you? I don't think Hamas or Hezbollah even wants to negotiate. Fatah > >> >maybe. > > >> Although Hamas doesn't officially recognise Israel they definitely want the > >> establishment of a Palestinian state and have recognised the existence of > > >So why do they not make the right moves to make a state? They could > >have had a state numerous times. > > >> Israel as a reality both now and after the formation of such a state > > >> see > > >>http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1802862,00.html > > >It appears that Hamas did this under pressure from Abbas according to > >this article. Now that Hamas has defeated Fatah in Gaza I suspect it > >may not mean anything anymore. > > >And why are they still firing rockets into Israel? They got their land > >back. Why don't they stop fighting Israel and start building a > >country? > > >> and > > >>http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-a-reality-hamas-leader-admits... > > >This article seems to show the Hamas leader admitting Israel is here > >to stay. But they still have their priorities wrong. > > >> The only way out of this conflict is for bitter enemies to negotiate in good > >> faith. > > >Good luck. > > >> Who would have thought that Gerry Adam's Sinn Fein and Ian Paisley's > >> DUP could be working together in running Northern Ireland a decade ago. > > >There's a big difference: Sinn Fein never had plans to kill all the > >Britons and take over the UK. They had much more limited objectives. > >Something about a parade in a certain town in N. Ireland and a say in > >N. Ireland matters or whatever. Anyway, I make no judgments on that > >matter in this post. I'm just pointing out the enormous difference in > >goals. Too much difference to make this analogy useful. > > What ?????????? > You obviously know nothing about the IRA. Fine. Does their charter have destruction of Great Britain as a primary goal? > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > >> David Webb > >> Security team leader > >> CCSS > >> Middlesex University > > >[...] > > >AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:12:48 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: OK! Almost a month has gone by. How about changing the subject to something more explosive, like Aug. 6th? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:18:49 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186010329.495752.168100@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 6:15 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 07/30/07 02:15, Dirk Munk wrote: > >> JF Mezei wrote: > >>> AEF wrote: > >>>> It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to > >>>> destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! > >>> They acceptance of Israel's existance will be the RESULT of succesful > >>> negotiations. The USA/Israel require them to accept Israel as a > >>> pre-condition for negotiations. > >> The state of Israel exists since the UN more or less established it in > >> 1948. The existence of the state of Israel or acceptance of this fact is > >> not negotiable. > > >> Almost no one in the middle east is interested in solving the conflict > >> between Israel and the Palestinians. Why not? Simple, corrupt and > >> autocratic leaders love to use this conflict to distract their own > >> people from the problems in their own country. It is the oldest game in > >> politics, find something abroad to distract the attention of the people > >> from your own failures. And it works perfectly. Poverty in your own > >> country? Look at the Americans and Europeans! They help the Israeli > >> against the Palestinians! They hate Muslems! That is why we are poor! > > >> Who is paying the salaries of the Palestinian civil servants? Not the > >> rich Arab countries or other "Muslem brother states". No, the US and the > >> EU, those damned friends of Israel. > > > A man after my own heart. > > > Are you *sure* that you are European? Or were you stolen at birth > > from a Texas hospital and spirited across the pond? > > Quite sure, thanks. :-) > > There is no such thing as "the Palestinians". In recent times there has > never been a consolidated Palestinian leadership. There is Fatah, rotten > and corrupt to the core, and there is Hamas. The problem is that Hamas > is doing a lot of good things for the Palestinian people with money from > rather unpleasant Arab states. They have hospitals, social care, schools > and so on. In return they have to preach hatred against Israel and > destabilize any peace process. You get nothing for free. Besides these > two there are all kind of other Palestinians groups out of control by > the two main parties. In the middle of this is the poor Palestinian > people, and I do mean that. The average Palestinian man woman or child > hasn't seen peace or happiness in decades. Generations grew up in > misery. They are used as pawns in a very cynical political chess game. > > >> Now Israel isn't doing very much to improve the situation either. If you > >> are a Palestinian or a Israeli citizen of Arab origin, and you can't get > >> water from the tap while Jewish people are splashing in their private > >> swimming pool just a few hundred yards from your home, you will not get > >> the idea that you get treated fairly by the Israeli government. And this > >> is just a small example of the rather foolish way Israel is fueling the > >> conflict. > > > This is interesting and sad. Do you have a reference, so that I > > might get more detail? > > Now you know why I am from Europe and not the US. The Netherlands have > always strongly supported Israel in its struggle to survive, and that > included for instance sending Patriot missiles to Israel during the > first Gulf war. I totally agree with this all. However we also see that > Israel is not treating its Arab citizens or the Palestinians the way it > should, far from it. That is what we also get to see on television and > in newspapers over here, not just pro Israel talk. The water problem is > just a very small example. Israel does numerous unnecessary small things > (and big things as well) that make life for Arabs very unpleasant. In Can you please give some detail on this water problem? If you're talking about when Israel was still in Gaza, well, they're out now. The Gazans can have that water all to themselves. If not, please do tell. And what are all these things to make life unpleasant for its Arab population? Also, the Palestinians (or whatever you choose to call them -- I see your point, but we have to call them something!) have had several chances to have their own state and blew every single one. I also love how whenever Israel "withdrew" from the West bank the P's violence against Israel increased. Not a real good incentive for the Israelis leave! > the end this attitude will backfire and Israel will regret this stupidity. > > By the way, did you know that not even all Jews are treated equal in > Israel? There are 'classes' of Jews, it all depends where your family > came from. Did they come from some poor underdeveloped country, and they > hardly had any education? Then you are a second class Jew I'm afraid. Never heard of this. Can you elaborate? Just exactly how are they treated differently? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:25:58 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186010758.279252.53060@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 31, 9:01 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1185845107.304275.215...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >On Jul 30, 1:41 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1185733582.741490.41...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >On Jul 29, 1:22 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >> >> Ron Johnson wrote: > >> >> > The whole "they'll like us when we stop supporting Israel" idea is a > >> >> > steaming pile of shit. > > >> >> You wouldn't be able to grasp more evolved concepts such as "our blind > >> >> support for Israel prevents establishement of a real peace in middle > >> >> east". It is VERY different than what you stated above. > > >> >More bologna from you. It is the Arab's refusal to accept even the > >> >existence of Israel that prevents the establishment of real peace. > > >Again, I shouldn't have implied all Arabs. Those who offered > >diplomatic relations (or whatever the phrase is) for returning to the > >1967 borders took a big step in the right direction, though I think > >that offer also has some serious sticking points (at least one, > >anyway). > > >> Are you really that ignorant of the situation ? > >> Yasser Arafat and the PLO accepted Israels right to exist over a decade ago !! > >> This was formally confirmed when Arafat exchanged letters of PLO-Israel > >> recognition with the Yitzhak Rabin in 1993. > > >> See http://www.earlham.edu/~pss/yasser_arafat.htm > > >See > > > http://www.faithsforfairness.org/article4.htm > > >for the opposing viewpoint. > > I like the last line > > " > Now that Arafat is dead, there are expectations of establishing a democratic > and peaceful Palestinian state. > " > > As I said before you can find pages on the web about the Palestine-Israeli > conflict with all kinds of biases. One persons terrorist is another persons > freedom fighter. In many many cases terrorists have gone on to become > politians eg > > Nelson Mandela - Head of the ANC's armed wing I don't know the details, but I don't think he murdered all the whites after winning S. Africa. If the P's defeated Israel, they would kill all the Jews, or at least throw them out tout de suite! > Martin McGuiness - Second in command of provisional IRA in Derry in 1972 > (Now Deputy first minister of Northern Ireland) Sorry, I'm not up on the IRA. > > Menachem Begin - Leader of Irgun terrorist group which blew up buses and > famously the King David Hotel in 1946 in it's campagn > against both the British and Arabs in Palestine. > (Became Israeli Prime minister in 1977). Well, there's some controversy about exactly what happened and why. There was a lot of fighting among the Jews, Arabs, and Britons in Palestine at the time. Note that the Palestinians had numerous opportunities to have their own state. They didn't take it because too many Arabs and/or P's were more interested in destroying Israel and its Jews than anything else. I don't think the ones you mention above were ever offered anything as good. Did Britain ever offer N. Ireland in its entirety to the IRA and were turned down? Did the white rulers of S. Africa ever offer to eliminate the Arpartheid and were turned down? > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > >[...] > > >AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:55:12 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186012512.864170.256570@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 31, 7:45 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1185840161.601200.18...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >On Jul 30, 1:41 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1185733582.741490.41...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >On Jul 29, 1:22 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >> >> Ron Johnson wrote: > >> >> > The whole "they'll like us when we stop supporting Israel" idea is a > >> >> > steaming pile of shit. > > >> >> You wouldn't be able to grasp more evolved concepts such as "our blind > >> >> support for Israel prevents establishement of a real peace in middle > >> >> east". It is VERY different than what you stated above. > > >> >More bologna from you. It is the Arab's refusal to accept even the > >> >existence of Israel that prevents the establishment of real peace. > > >> Are you really that ignorant of the situation ? > >> Yasser Arafat and the PLO accepted Israels right to exist over a decade ago !! > >> This was formally confirmed when Arafat exchanged letters of PLO-Israel > >> recognition with the Yitzhak Rabin in 1993. > > >Right. That was a big step forward ... NOT! I heard they still had it > >in their charter to destroy Israel and move in. > > Then you heard wrong. The charter was formally revised in the presence of > Bill Clinton in 1998. > > From http://www.adl.org/israel/advocacy/glossary/plo.asp > > " > Following secret negotiations with Israel in Oslo, on September 9, 1993, Arafat > sent a letter to Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin recognizing Israel's > right to exist, renouncing terrorism, and pledging to remove clauses in the > Palestine National Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. In return, > Israel recognized the PLO as the "official representative" of the Palestinian > people and began formal negotiations with the PLO. The Charter was revised in > the presence of U.S. President Bill Clinton in December 1998. However, the > original Charter is still featured on some Palestinian Authority Web sites. > " > > which you might note is an Israeli advocacy site. Fine, but what about this from the site I gave earlier http://www.faithsforfairness.org/article4.htm [begin quote] [...] During the 1980's, Arafat settled in Tunisia, after the PLO was forced out of Lebanon. There, he continued to direct violence against Israel from afar until the Oslo Accords in 1993 allowed the PLO to return to the West Bank and Gaza. The world believed that the Middle East was finally on its way to peace, but Arafat's message to his people was quite the opposite. Under Arafat's control, government-sponsored Palestinian school textbooks denied Israel's right to exist and Muslim clerics were encouraged to call for "Jihad" or Holy War. Throughout this period, Arafat personally solicited and accepted money from Saddam Hussein and Saudi Arabia to pay the families of suicide bombers. In June 2002, the United States conceded that peace could never be obtained while Arafat was in power. That conclusion was reached after the Camp David Summit of 2000 where Arafat rejected proposals that met 97% of his demands without making a single concession or counter offer. Arafat knew that a peace agreement would mark the end of his absolute authority. Once the Palestinians were granted an independent state, they would want the right to choose their own leaders in an honest, fair election and establish a society that allowed them to live in freedom. [...] [end quote] It appears he says one thing and does another. I could swear I heard or read a report that he never removed the destroy Israel bit from the PLO's charter. Still, he says he renounces terrorism but does more terrorism anyway. If there's another side to the above two paragraphs, please post it. > > > Yes, I painted with > >too broad a brush. Many Arabs do recognize the existence of Israel, > >hence the Arab League's move to recognize it, relations, etc., if > >Israel would move back to the 1967 borders. > > >But the PLO isn't really much of a factor now. OK, Fatah is, and there > >is *some* hope with them. > > To all intents and purposes Fatah is the PLO. From > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#History > > " > Fatah joined the PLO and won the leadership role in 1969, after which the > other constituent members the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and > the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine were marginalized. > " Yeah, but I think of Fatah as having descended from the PLO. It seems so much different without Arafat. > > >And actions speak louder than words. And > >Hezbollah and Hamas certainly don't even pretend to recognize Israel. > > As I mentioned in another post Hamas have made nods in the direction of > recognising Israel but only as part of a final solution when a Palestinian > state has been established. Having seen that it made little difference to > Israels treatment of Arafat and his moderates it probably doesn't make much > sense for the Hamas leadership to risk upsetting it's more hardline supporters. > This is similar to Sinn Fein and the IRAs quandry over disarmament in Northern > Ireland - something which only happened at the end of the peace process. > > >> See http://www.earlham.edu/~pss/yasser_arafat.htm > > >Looks like a biased write-up to me. Even if the write-up is truthful, > >other Arabs continued to cause trouble as the same write-up says. I'm > >sure you can find write-ups of Arafat biased totally in the other > >direction. I see no reason to go with this one. > > If you look on the web for pages on the Israel-palestinian conflict you can > find pages biased in every possible way. However since I was only referencing > that page to support the fact that Arafat had accepted Israels right to exist > and had signed an agreement to that effect with Yitzhak Rabin it's slant on > events is irrelevent unless you believe that event did not take place. But he continued his terrorists ways after. See above. Says one thing -- does another. [...] > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:07:59 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <17a75$46b13c81$cef8887a$25340@TEKSAVVY.COM> AEF wrote: > During the 1980's, Arafat settled in Tunisia, after the PLO was forced > out of Lebanon. There, he continued to direct violence against Israel > from afar until the Oslo Accords in 1993 allowed the PLO to return to > the West Bank and Gaza. The world believed that the Middle East was > finally on its way to peace, but Arafat's message to his people was > quite the opposite. This issue is more complex and clearly visible today. There are different factions within Palestine. By throwing the PLO out, it causes many other factions to form. Hamas for instance, which used to be like the USA's "United Way", decided it would form a "terrorist" branch to annoy Israel to no end to force some peace agreement. When Arafat returned, it became clear that he didn't quite control all those factions, and an order for a ceasefire wasn't necessarily followed by all. And this is the crux of the problem. If you want the palestinian terrorists to stop "annoying" Israel, you have to give them a BIG carrot. (eg: an agreement agreable to even the more extremist parts of Palestine). But Israel won't give such a big carrot until AFTER the "annoying" has stopped. If Israel had a visionary dictator elected with a 10 year mandate and absolute majority, the later could afford to make concessions to Palestine and move the process in a very big way and then wait a couple of years to see the peace dividends start to come in. But in the current political situation, it is extremely difficult/impossible for Israel to make any concessions to Palestine and see a dividend within a short enough time frame to allow the political leader to survive politically. What is needed is someone strong enough to implement some accord (like the proposed one by the "quartet" in its entirety from Israel's side, and convince Israeli citizens to bear with continued bombs for a couple of years until the extremist movement in Palestine withers away once more and more palestinians realise that even though Israel may not have acquiesced to 100% of their demands, it was close enough to be acceptable and their lives have begun to improve significantly. The last part is extremely important, and would require arab states to start to financially help palestine for building purposes (as opposed to arms and explosives). And Hamas may return to being an aid organisation like it was before (and still does that work). The current policy of "there can be no peace agreement until peace has been reached" cannot work. It is like having a policy of not installing VMS on a machine until VMS has been installed on that machine. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:16:49 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <46B13E91.C775D50B@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > >> [snip] > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while, > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia. > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh. > > > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just > > >>> their first really successful one. > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro. > > > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness. > > > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!! > > > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc. > > > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol. > > > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the > > neolithic era. > [...] > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too. > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is there? > Until 9/11, > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11 > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you don't believe in consequences, do you?). > Are > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did > you expect them to do? The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command". (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.) > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical. Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth defending. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:00:53 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of order, almost a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try Opera, use news.individual.net or please stop posting. Most annoying. On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:19 -0700, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tadamsmar [mailto:tadamsmar@yahoo.com] >> Sent: August 1, 2007 3:18 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Stay on Alpha forever? >> >> I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. >> >> I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than >> staying >> on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the >> costs >> in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. >> >> But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. >> >> Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on >> Alphas forever? > > > Upgrades are typically about plus's and minus's and then looking at the > overall benefits. > > With Alpha, since you stated it was a mission critical application, can > we assume you are paying maint on the existing Alpha's? If so, then you > can assume that these are costs that are going to increase quite a bit > as the servers continue to age. This is no different than VAX maint > costs (and they are significant). > > In some cases, I have seen the 3-4 year maint cost savings alone were > enough to justify the initial migration costs. > > In terms of migration costs, it really depends on the application. Some > Customers have ported large applications in 3 day porting workshops. If > there is minimal architecture specific code, and release notes are > reviewed, the porting costs would likely be minimal. Of course, the > primary application porting is only one of the considerations, because > supporting app's, ISV utilities and testing efforts also need to be > considered as well, but again, it depends on the environment. > > You also have to consider that, over time, more and more new OpenVMS > features will be Integrity specific, so depending on your app > requirements, that may impede your ability to address future > requirements. > > Depending on the App type and requirements, Integrity servers do > outperform Alpha servers as well. > > Reference a good porting and performance presentation by Guy Peleg from > Bruden that is available at: > http://www.hp-interex.be/wiki/images/4/48/Porting_real_applications.ppt > > > Regards > > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 01:16:16 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > Sent: August 1, 2007 9:01 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of order, > almost > a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try Opera, use > news.individual.net > or please stop posting. Most annoying. > > On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:19 -0700, Main, Kerry > wrote: > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have issues= with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is with your clie= nt or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:52:23 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:16:16 -0700, Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] >> Sent: August 1, 2007 9:01 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? >> >> Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of order, >> almost >> a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try Opera, use >> news.individual.net >> or please stop posting. Most annoying. >> >> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:19 -0700, Main, Kerry >> wrote: >> > > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? > > Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have > issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is with > your client or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. It is because you post using info-vax that your responses are out of order, in the sense that at least my news reader doesnt recognize and stack it in the appropriate tree, as a result it is difficult to figure to whom you are responding, which in my case generally means that I simply delete your posts without reading them, not because I don't value your contributions, but I have too much to do and can't be bothered to figure out to whom you are repsonding. > > Regards > > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 02:00:04 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > Sent: August 1, 2007 9:52 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:16:16 -0700, Main, Kerry > wrote: > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > >> Sent: August 1, 2007 9:01 PM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > >> > >> Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of > order, > >> almost > >> a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try Opera, use > >> news.individual.net > >> or please stop posting. Most annoying. > >> > >> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:19 -0700, Main, Kerry > > >> wrote: > >> > > > > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? > > > > Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not > have > > issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having > is with > > your client or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. > > It is because you post using info-vax that your responses are out > of order, > in the sense that at least my news reader doesnt recognize and > stack it in > the > appropriate tree, as a result it is difficult to figure to whom you > are > responding, which in my case generally means that I simply delete > your > posts > without reading them, not because I don't value your contributions, > but I > have too > much to do and can't be bothered to figure out to whom you are > repsonding. > So, is the issue your newsreader or Info-VAX? Have you tried other newsreaders? Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:20:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Main, Kerry wrote: > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? > > Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is with your client or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. Mr Main, This particular post was sent as: Organization: Info-VAX<==>comp.os.vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 38 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from you. Which is acceptable. However, you really need to set your software to wrap lines (CR-LF at the end of each lines). Your software currently inserts CR-LF only at the end of each paragraph. Many newsreaders will wrap poorly formatted text, reducing the impact on the reader, but it is still a problem. It also doesn't send the right image when you , an HP employee, can't seem to figure out how to send standard-abiding messages. Now, HP, being a subsidiary of Microsoft, probably doesn't mind when its employees send messages in Microsoft-standard format since it helps push the internet towards Microsoft standards. But in a VMS group, you find people who do not support Microsoft standards and want to see people adhere to established real internet standards (which Microsoft doesn't adhere to). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:28:55 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <46B14167.9CB6D28A@spam.comcast.net> "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > > Sent: August 1, 2007 9:01 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > > > Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of order, > > almost > > a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try Opera, use > > news.individual.net > > or please stop posting. Most annoying. > > > > On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:19 -0700, Main, Kerry > > wrote: > > > > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? > > Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is with your client or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. > Notice the quote indicators. There's only one at the beginning of the sentence above; the rest of the lines break where Netscape thought they should (as I'm seeing it, writing this reply), but came into the news-server as one long line. So, yes - that is how the Usenet world is seeing your posts. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 02:59:35 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: August 1, 2007 10:29 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > [snip...] > Notice the quote indicators. There's only one at the beginning of > the sentence > above; the rest of the lines break where Netscape thought they > should (as I'm > seeing it, writing this reply), but came into the news-server as > one long line. > > So, yes - that is how the Usenet world is seeing your posts. > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ I have set my client to wrap at 76 characters, so it seems various newsread= ers interpret things differently or Info-VAX is not handling it correctly. As I mentioned before, based on offline feedback I received awhile ago, oth= ers with different newsreaders seem to have no issues. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 03:12:52 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: August 1, 2007 10:21 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? > > > > Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have > issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is with > your client or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. > > > Mr Main, > > This particular post was sent as: > Organization: Info-VAX<=3D=3D>comp.os.vms Gateway > X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List > Lines: 38 > Content-Language: en-US > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > > from you. Which is acceptable. However, you really need to set your > software to wrap lines (CR-LF at the end of each lines). Your software > currently inserts CR-LF only at the end of each paragraph. > Others have stated they have had no issues with my posts. However, to experiment a bit, my client is now set to wrap at 76 characters= It was previously set to wrap at 72. [snip..] Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 2007 22:26:06 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] >> Sent: August 1, 2007 9:01 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? >> >> Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of order, >> almost >> a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try Opera, use >> news.individual.net >> or please stop posting. Most annoying. >> >> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:19 -0700, Main, Kerry >> wrote: >> > > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? Yes, top posting is bad form. But responses should be inserted just after the point to which they respond, and extraneous matter (that to which no response is being made) should be deleted. Responders should not worry about preserving a record of what was said before - we all have that. Just enough to provide context. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:27:36 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On 08/01/07 20:16, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- From: Tom Linden >> [mailto:tom@kednos.company] Sent: August 1, 2007 9:01 PM To: >> Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Kerry needs a news readerRe: >> Stay on Alpha forever? >> >> Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of >> order, almost a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try >> Opera, use news.individual.net or please stop posting. Most >> annoying. >> >> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:19 -0700, Main, Kerry >> wrote: >> > > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? > > Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not > have issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are > having is with your client or the way Info-VAX is processing > replies. Outlook breaks threading and doesn't wrap it's lines. Most aggrivating. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:33:09 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On 08/01/07 21:00, Main, Kerry wrote: [snip] >> > > > So, is the issue your newsreader or Info-VAX? Don't know. Probably your Outlook, since none of your messages (or Paul Raulerson's, for that matter) have References: headers, which allow for proper threading. > Have you tried other newsreaders? We're using apps that follow the relevant RFCs. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:34:23 -0700 From: David B Sneddon Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <1186029263.562805.122390@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 3:12 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > Others have stated they have had no issues with my posts. > > However, to experiment a bit, my client is now set to wrap at 76 characters. It was previously set to wrap at 72. > > [snip..] > > Kerry Main Setting the "wrap" width only affects the display of the message -- not how often line breaks are inserted. Learn to use the RETURN key more often... Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 04:59:04 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: David J Dachtera writes: >"Main, Kerry" wrote: >> >> Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? >> >> Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is with your client or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. >> >Notice the quote indicators. There's only one at the beginning of the sentence >above; the rest of the lines break where Netscape thought they should (as I'm >seeing it, writing this reply), but came into the news-server as one long line. >So, yes - that is how the Usenet world is seeing your posts. Kerry's posts are "quoted-printable" so they still appear as the Microsoft standard superlong line if you use a news reader that supports it. If yours doesn't, the lines are broken up oddly with strange equal signs added, like this: (quote) Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have issues= with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is with your clie= nt or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. (end quote) Kerry's posts don't have a References: header, which is very bad and breaks threading, and this is the cause of the initial complaint. I don't know if this is solvable using Info-VAX. If you have to use Outhouse, I think there is a "post as straight text" setting somewhere. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:39:49 +0300 From: "Guy Peleg" Subject: Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Message-ID: <46af91f0$0$24196$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "urbancamo" wrote in message news:1185890971.291076.285690@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > Hi, > > I was wondering if anyone knows what the maximum heap size is that can > be specified for OpenVMS Java 5 on Itanium/Alpha? I could only find > reference to a '32-bit' option, which I'm presuming isn't the default. On Itanium, you can't go above 1500MB, it's hard coded limitation that (hopefully) will be removed in a future release. > > Is there any developers out there using Java on VMS? If so, could they > please share their experience with me. I am a developer since Java 1.1 Yes there are....I've worked with several customers that their entire application is based on Java. The key for performance is Java 5 on Itanium, OpenVMS V8.3 and proper tuning. Guy Peleg BRUDEN-OSSG http://www.brudenossg.com > and would welcome your opinions on how developing/deploying on OpenVMS > differs to other environments. > > Many thanks for the help, > > Mark. > -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:20:09 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Message-ID: In article <1185990365.187329.66340@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, sean@obanion.us wrote: > Out of sheer curiosity and thinking it would be easy, I tried to find > in the on-line documentation what the current maximum WSMAX value is, > since it looks like that's the next limit. If you do: $ MCR SYSGEN SHOW WSMAX you get something like this (taken on V8.3, Alpha) Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- WSMAX 393216 8192 1024 134217728 Pagelets internal value 24576 512 64 8388608 Pages $ write sys$output 134217728/2048 ! max in megabytes 65536 i.e. 64 GB, for Alpha running V8.3. You should repeat this on Itanium to check that SYSGEN uses the same maximum value there. Or did I miss something in your question? -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:12:33 -0700 From: urbancamo Subject: Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Message-ID: <1185995553.297973.29170@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> > On Itanium, you can't go above 1500MB, it's hard coded limitation that > (hopefully) will be removed in a future release. That's a really horrible, arbitrary limit given the amount of memory you can put in an Itanium box. Unfortunately, it wasn't the answer I was looking for. I was hoping for a bit more headroom! Thanks for the answers - googling has revealed very little about most architectures. I am assuming that Sun have ensured that their Solaris servers don't suffer from such limits! Regards, Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 15:16:25 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Message-ID: "P. Sture" wrote on 08/01/2007 02:20:09 PM: > In article <1185990365.187329.66340@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > sean@obanion.us wrote: > > > Out of sheer curiosity and thinking it would be easy, I tried to find > > in the on-line documentation what the current maximum WSMAX value is, > > since it looks like that's the next limit. > > If you do: > > $ MCR SYSGEN SHOW WSMAX > > you get something like this (taken on V8.3, Alpha) > > > Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic > -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- > WSMAX 393216 8192 1024 134217728 Pagelets > internal value 24576 512 64 8388608 Pages > > $ write sys$output 134217728/2048 ! max in megabytes > 65536 > > i.e. 64 GB, for Alpha running V8.3. You should repeat this on Itanium > to check that SYSGEN uses the same maximum value there. Math? $ say 134217728/8 !pagelets = 16 * 512bytes 16777216 bytes $ say 8388608*2 !pages = 512bytes 16777216 bytes But this max_value is main-memory-dependent. Do you have 2GB? > > Or did I miss something in your question? > > -- > Paul Sture > > Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:29:57 -0700 From: sean@obanion.us Subject: Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Message-ID: <1186014597.519357.65240@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> What I missed in my quest was to look in front of me. Well, not quite, since the Alphas I have access to are runinng 7.3-2. But I guess the point I was tring to make was unless I have an the system in question (Alpha, Integrity, 7.3, 8.3...) in front of me, how would I find this out? It's true I have yet to check the FAQs... Sean On Aug 1, 11:20 am, "P. Sture" wrote: > In article <1185990365.187329.66...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > s...@obanion.us wrote: > > Out of sheer curiosity and thinking it would be easy, I tried to find > > in the on-line documentation what the current maximum WSMAX value is, > > since it looks like that's the next limit. > > If you do: > > $ MCR SYSGEN SHOW WSMAX > > you get something like this (taken on V8.3, Alpha) > > Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic > -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- > WSMAX 393216 8192 1024 134217728 Pagelets > internal value 24576 512 64 8388608 Pages > > $ write sys$output 134217728/2048 ! max in megabytes > 65536 > > i.e. 64 GB, for Alpha running V8.3. You should repeat this on Itanium > to check that SYSGEN uses the same maximum value there. > > Or did I miss something in your question? > > -- > Paul Sture > > Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:20:26 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= Subject: New Python 2.5.1 kit (V1.3-0) Message-ID: <46b0dcfe$0$6958$426a34cc@news.free.fr> A new Python 2.5.1 kit is available for AXP and IA64. OpenVMS AXP 7.3-2 and IA64 8.3 are, now, minimum version. This kit is a new features kit. # The following new libraries has been added: PycURL http://pycurl.sourceforge.net/ which is a Python interface to libcurl. # lxml http://codespeak.net/lxml/ which is a Pythonic binding for the libxml2 and libxslt libraries (latest version of these libraries are also included - libxml2 2.6.29 libxslt 1.1.21) # OpenVMS SMG$ interface (more than 100 functions added), it include an object interface and the low level interface The OpenVMS RMS module has a new routine "getfdl" to retreive a file FDL description. Some modules has been upgrade to the latest version. # New LD images are also available: Mercurial http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/ has been upgrade to the latest snapshot # Webware for Python http://www.webwareforpython.org/ has been upgrade to 0.9.4 The LD images are useful for testing or using this software on a system where no ODS5 device is available or on which you can't install these software using the VMS command PRODUCT. For more information on Python 2.5.1, please see: http://www.python.org/2.5.1/ For more information on Python for OpenVMS please see: http://vmspython.dyndns.org/ Jean-François Piéronne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:17:46 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <1185995866.368720.29970@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on Alphas forever? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:21:03 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <46B0EB2F.6030001@comcast.net> tadamsmar wrote: > I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. > > I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying > on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs > in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. > > But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? > Nothing lasts "forever"! If you buy spares now, you should be able to run on Alpha for the next twenty or thirty years. This means a couple of spare machines plus spare parts such as power supplies and fans. Alphas will be around and in service for many years. Consider that there are a few VAXen still in service a bit more than twelve years after the first Alphas hit the streets. Somehow I doubt that the same can be said for Itanic. Itanic has been "sailing under a curse" from day one. It was announced before even samples were available and the scheduled availability date slipped several times for a total of several years! It has been referred to, contemptuously as "Unobtainium" for that reason. I've no personal experience but I've read that Itanic has little or no performance advantage over the best Alphas. And before you spend a lot of money, question how long the application will be in use in it's current form! There's a good chance that in five or ten years the application will no longer meet the needs of the business. At that point, at whatever time it occurs, Alphas may not meet the needs of the business either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:58:38 +0300 From: "Guy Peleg" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <46b0e7c6$0$23226$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "tadamsmar" wrote in message news:1185995866.368720.29970@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. > > I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying > on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs > in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. > > But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? There are few reasons I could think of that justify migration: 1. Performance - most of the applications I've seen, got significant performance boost by going to Itanium. 2. New hardware support - if you need 10gb lan adapter, it's only available on Itanium 3. Cost of software support - should be lower but YMMV based on local country policy. 99% of customer I've worked with completed the port itself in less than a week. Planning and testing takes longer of course. fwiw, Guy Peleg BRUDEN-OSSG http://www.brudenossg.com > -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:29:55 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: tadamsmar writes: >I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. >I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying >on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs >in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. >But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. >Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on >Alphas forever? Not enough info. Are your Alphas already old, the latest model or somewhere in between? Do you need a performance boost now? What kind of performance boost are you likely to need in the future? Can you expand your application by adding nodes to a cluster, or CPU cards and/or memory to your existing Alphas? Can they be upgraded to a better model? How likely are you going to need to use new hardware - hardware that will only be available on Integrity? Will the Itanic upgrade pay for itself in reduced maint. cost or power consumption (wait...Itanic power consumption...scratch that argument!)? How available are (and will be) spare parts and systems? How much $? How good of an idea is it to run a mission critical app. on "old" Alphas? That's what people will be thinking in the future. Also, a path to consider is to upgrade to Itanic "later". The choice isn't binary, upgrade right now or stay on Alpha forever, is it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:42:10 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <1186004530.328320.119840@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 3:17 pm, tadamsmar wrote: > I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. > > I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying > on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs > in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. > > But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? What kind of CPU are you currently running on? Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 2007 16:57:03 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article <46b0e7c6$0$23226$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, "Guy Peleg" writes: > 99% of customer I've worked with completed the port itself in less > than a week. But that is a self-selecting sample, of those for whom a port made sense and for whom there were appropriate compilers on IPF. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:59:00 +0200 From: Marc Van Dyck Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: tadamsmar explained : > I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. > > I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying > on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs > in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. > > But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? Look at your support costs. We are building a case here, where we will replace 8 alpha systems by 8 equivalent IA64 systems, and break-even after 3 years. Yes, 3 years of Alpha support > 3 years of IA64 support + purchase price of the 8 IA64 machines - Alpha trade-in. Ask your sales rep to do the cost study for you ! (Replacement of 6 GS160 QBBs + 2 ES45 by 8 IA64 6xxx machines) -- Marc Van Dyck ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 2007 17:00:09 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > Do you need a performance boost now? What kind of performance boost are > you likely to need in the future? Note that there are some domains where no performance boost is needed. The best example I have heard of is the software reading toll tickets on toll roads. That is a case where the bandwidth of the road is never going to increase enough to tax the computer capacity. And I am quite careful before I use the word "never". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 00:43:19 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tadamsmar [mailto:tadamsmar@yahoo.com] > Sent: August 1, 2007 3:18 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Stay on Alpha forever? > > I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. > > I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than > staying > on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the > costs > in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. > > But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? Upgrades are typically about plus's and minus's and then looking at the ove= rall benefits. With Alpha, since you stated it was a mission critical application, can we = assume you are paying maint on the existing Alpha's? If so, then you can as= sume that these are costs that are going to increase quite a bit as the ser= vers continue to age. This is no different than VAX maint costs (and they a= re significant). In some cases, I have seen the 3-4 year maint cost savings alone were enoug= h to justify the initial migration costs. In terms of migration costs, it really depends on the application. Some Cus= tomers have ported large applications in 3 day porting workshops. If there = is minimal architecture specific code, and release notes are reviewed, the = porting costs would likely be minimal. Of course, the primary application p= orting is only one of the considerations, because supporting app's, ISV uti= lities and testing efforts also need to be considered as well, but again, i= t depends on the environment. You also have to consider that, over time, more and more new OpenVMS featur= es will be Integrity specific, so depending on your app requirements, that = may impede your ability to address future requirements. Depending on the App type and requirements, Integrity servers do outperform= Alpha servers as well. Reference a good porting and performance presentation by Guy Peleg from Bru= den that is available at: http://www.hp-interex.be/wiki/images/4/48/Porting_real_applications.ppt Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:53:47 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:17:46 -0700, tadamsmar wrote: > I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. > > I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying > on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs > in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. > > But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? > This is the wrong forum to seek that advice, in a sense. It is more of an analysis of your own business plans. I can tell you that I know of organizations with large VAXen planning to keep them in service past 2020. Why? Because Digital didn't properly handled the the VAX - Alpha transition. Just as Alpha had less capability then VAX, Itanium likewise has less than Alpha, and to the extent that this doesn't impact you then you could give Itanium a try, if you can make a business case for doing so. Incidentally, I found that Alpha executables are about 3x those of VAX, and only recently dtermined that there is an expansion of executables form Alpha to Itanium, maybe a about a factor of two. Is this significant for the end user, probably not, but for us of those that muck about in the entrails, it is an indication of poor design. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:15:08 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <1186017308.860629.125910@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 3:17 pm, tadamsmar wrote: > I am evaluating an upgrade to Integrity. > > I am pretty sure the upgrade is going to be more costly than staying > on Alpha. I don't have good estimates, but I would ballpark the costs > in the tens of thousands, with no significant return on investment. > > But the app is mission-critical with no end-date in site. > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? If you need any help please let me know, we have several programs. Sue Skonetski OpenVMS Engineering ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:26:21 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <65d84$46b132bf$cef8887a$22210@TEKSAVVY.COM> tadamsmar wrote: > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? As long as new versions of VMS-Alpha are being generated, and as long as the current crop of Alpha systems meet your performant growth needs for the foreseable future (eg: If you are currenltly happy with a DS class machine, you can grow capacity by buying new/used ES class machines. (Buying it from HP probably requires you know some magic incantation, and/or go through Cerner which supposeldy has a deal to continue to make alphas available to its clients) --- then there is no point in migrating right away. And buying used machines as spares probably allows you to go without official costly maintenance contracts for those machines. (HP is bound to raise maintenance costs on Alphas as a way to reduce the reluctance of customers to migrate to that dead end IA64 thing. Say you can last another 3-4 years on your Alphas, by then, the future of VMS will be better defined, and your migration paths also better defined (IBM, SUN). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:13:06 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <467f4$46b13db3$cef8887a$25463@TEKSAVVY.COM> Another possible avenue if the Alpha maintenance costs are too high would be to consider buying 64 bit 8086 servers and running the Alpha emulator (*). This will eventually give you performance boosts compared to exists systems without the need to migrate to that IA64 thing. (remember that ALLIN1 isn't going to IA64). At this point in time, I am not sure of the emulator costs are competitive with just keeping your existing hardware. If you are mission critical and are setup in a cluster and can afford to have a node down for a while, then getting spares from ebay/islandco might be a very cost effective avenue. (*) Stan Quayle can send me some "gift" should you choose that avenue :-) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 03:07:39 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: August 1, 2007 10:13 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? > > Another possible avenue if the Alpha maintenance costs are too high > would be to consider buying 64 bit 8086 servers and running the Alpha > emulator (*). This will eventually give you performance boosts compared > to exists systems without the need to migrate to that IA64 thing. > > (remember that ALLIN1 isn't going to IA64). > > At this point in time, I am not sure of the emulator costs are > competitive with just keeping your existing hardware. > > If you are mission critical and are setup in a cluster and can afford > to > have a node down for a while, then getting spares from ebay/islandco > might be a very cost effective avenue. > > > > (*) Stan Quayle can send me some "gift" should you choose that avenue > :-) :-) JF, To be clear, while the emulator is an option, the emulator pricing is not c= heap. Just for kicks, ask for a emulator quote offline for a VAX 6600 6 processor= license costs (and that would be separate from the VMS licensing component= of course). :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:23:56 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On 08/01/07 17:00, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > >> Do you need a performance boost now? What kind of performance boost are >> you likely to need in the future? > > Note that there are some domains where no performance boost is needed. > The best example I have heard of is the software reading toll tickets > on toll roads. That is a case where the bandwidth of the road is never > going to increase enough to tax the computer capacity. And I am quite > careful before I use the word "never". More plazas, more lanes, especially more customers, and, if various agencies have sharing agreements (think E-ZPass, for those of you in the NE United States), more reciprocity processing. Eventually, "more, more, more" maxes out the box. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 04:34:10 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >In article <46b0e7c6$0$23226$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, "Guy Peleg" writes: >> 99% of customer I've worked with completed the port itself in less >> than a week. >But that is a self-selecting sample, of those for whom a port made >sense and for whom there were appropriate compilers on IPF. Most of the VMS porting from Alpha to Itanic _is_ very straightforward when using a higher level language. On the other hand, if you're going from VAX to Itanic, and using Macro, and doing just about every crazy trick possible...let's not go there... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 04:42:48 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: >> Do you need a performance boost now? What kind of performance boost are >> you likely to need in the future? >Note that there are some domains where no performance boost is needed. >The best example I have heard of is the software reading toll tickets >on toll roads. That is a case where the bandwidth of the road is never >going to increase enough to tax the computer capacity. And I am quite >careful before I use the word "never". I know there are some such situations, which is why I initially asked if a performance boost was necessary. I'm porting an application which is still running on a Qbus VAX to Itanium (skipping Alpha completely) which is never going to use more than a small fraction of the horsepower available. But they may wish to add fancy bells and whistles once they can. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:22:13 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: VAX 3100-80 hangs during backup Message-ID: <46B13FD5.35566C14@spam.comcast.net> "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" wrote: > > System is a 3100-80 with 32megs and VMS 7.3. The boot disk is a > RZ29B. I was using a HP C1537A DDS-3 dat tape for backup. The system > is also part of a 2 node VAXcluster.The other system is a MicroVAX > 3100. Each node within the cluster boots off its own system disk. A > week or so ago I shut down the cluster for maint and replacing the > C1537A and adding a single DLT 4000 tape drive for backup use. > Rebooted the cluster with no problems well maybe. Now the 3100-80 > will hang when I do a backup. Any disk attached to the 3100-80 will > cause the system to hang. I tired the dat tape, the dlt tape and the > model 80 will slowly stop responding. I even shut down the cluster and > tried a standalone with no luck. The 80 hangs at different files so I > cannot say its one specific file or directory. If I start backup from > the other node backup works okay. I use the standard command on both > systems > $ backup/image/log/record/media=comp/ignore=interlock > any thoughts?? > phil Sounds like it might be a SCSI issue. Check termination and make sure no device id.'s duplicate, but most of all check the SCSI bus cable length. If the DLT 4000 is outboard (probably), make sure to use the shortest SCSI cable you can find, 1 metre or less, the shorter the better. 18 inches would be great if you can find it. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 01:12:24 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Anton Shterenlikht [mailto:mexas@bristol.ac.uk] > Sent: August 1, 2007 7:25 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 08:45:34PM -0500, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > It sounds to me like our friend here is involved in a "prove it!" > issue with > > the VMS systems, and so getting them up and running is more > profitable than > > worrying about SPOF issues right now; let the SPOF issues become > a problem > > for the "unix people" would be my way of handling it. > > that's about right > > -- > Anton Shterenlikht > Room 2.6, Queen's Building > Mech Eng Dept > Bristol University > University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK > Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 > Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 Anton, Is the concern the network folks have related to non-TCPIP protocols on the= net or OpenVMS itself? If it is network protocols, they are worried about, then setting up a priva= te VLAN for the cluster SCS traffic and restricting the primary NICs to TCP= IP only would solve that. If they are worried about OpenVMS security, I guess that is a an education = problem. [Can't help smiling on this - what they are doing is like protecting a poli= ce station by placing a rent-a-cop in front of it.] :-) Here are a few security whitepapers that may be of interest to your network= folks: http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-2896ENW.pdf This whitepaper presents an overview of OpenVMS security and its role in en= terprise business continuity. The whitepaper supports the conclusion that I= T environments requiring elevated security capabilities need OpenVMS now mo= re than ever, whether on HP Integrity servers, AlphaServer systems, or a co= mbination of both. (November 2005) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/whitepapers/TCS_2004.pdf Techwise Research - This whitepaper provides a detailed comparison of poten= tial vulnerabilities and security-related cluster crashes for HP OpenVMS, I= BM AIX, and Sun Solaris Server Clusters. (June 2004) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:06:48 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 10:25:36 -0700, Steve Lionel wrote: > FredK wrote: >> >> I found this an interesting read: >> >> >> http://www.valuesearchfunds.com/userFiles/Essay_Oct_2005.pdf > > Schwartzmann says, in this article, "The GEM family was also > retargeted for MIPS and x86 machines but did not become a noticeable > offering for these architectures." I'm not sure what planet he is on, > but Digital/Compaq Visual Fortran certainly was noticeable and a > roaring success for a GEM-based x86 compiler, handily whomping all > competitors in the Windows market. What was especially amazing about > this was that the GEM team treated x86 as a second-class platform, > withholding optimizations that were done for Alpha and assigning > junior team members to the x86 side. Imagine what it would have done > if the GEM team had not held back on x86. > >> From my own perspective, admittedly biased, GEM was much more > successful than Schwartzmann gives credit for and the Itanium port was > relatively painless. > > The author of this paper is unknown to me - he must have left DEC > before I joined (1978). I think he left about that time for Prime, but I believe Anckorn remained DEC for about another year after that. > > Steve > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.419 ************************