INFO-VAX Mon, 13 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 441 Contents: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: Is this Address really Illegal? Re: OpenVMS 8.3 Standalone backup error TCP/IP Source files and or BGDRIVER help Re: TCP/IP Source files and or BGDRIVER help Re: TCP/IP Source files and or BGDRIVER help Re: TPU on MAC OS-X ? Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:12:55 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Message-ID: <1186953175.530190.234940@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Hiya, I've just tried getting some new license paks from the hobbyist site but, although it takes all my details and apparently validates them, no licenses have appeared in my email. Anyone got any ideas whether they are having problems? Licenses were for a VAXstation, an AlphaServer and the layered products. Thanks in advance Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:20:34 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Message-ID: <46BFBFF2.8CCC7D68@spam.comcast.net> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Hiya, > > I've just tried getting some new license paks from the hobbyist site > but, although it takes all my details and apparently validates them, > no licenses have appeared in my email. > > Anyone got any ideas whether they are having problems? > > Licenses were for a VAXstation, an AlphaServer and the layered > products. Any clues from your ISP's spam filters? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:41:42 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Message-ID: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > I've just tried getting some new license paks from the hobbyist site > but, although it takes all my details and apparently validates them, > no licenses have appeared in my email. > > Anyone got any ideas whether they are having problems? Same here. I tried last Thursday and still haven't received anything. And, typical, just when I really needed to try something out :-( ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:46:27 +0100 From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: <13bv3e8flgn88ba@corp.supernews.com> "tadamsmar" wrote in message news:1186489031.851468.214280@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 6, 10:40 pm, Robert Deininger > wrote: > > In article <1186424294.110608.68...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > tadamsmar wrote: > > > I meant big monitors not big X-terminals. I guess we could use X- > > > terminals. But I would like to use my existing monitors if we did not > > > wait to upgrade for many years. I have a couple of new monitors. > > > > The rx2600 has 1 built-in graphics port. I don't know the maximum > > graphics resolution, but it is somewhere in the documentation for the > > server. > > > > You also mentioned process automation. Do you have any oddball adapters > > in your Alphas? None of the Integrity servers support 5 volt PCI cards; > > you can only use 3.3V or universal cards. > > No oddball addapters, it's all via ethernet to PLCs . We do have to > get a substitute for Allen Bradley Interchange because it will not be > upgraded to Integrity. That will be HP Basestar or binary translation > Apologies in advance if any of what follows is already covered in other related threads which I may have missed. "No oddball adapters". That's handy then. Oddball adapters aren't going to be a strong point on VMS, likely even less so on IA64 (as you have already found with Interchange, not everything previously available on VMS will be available on VMS on IA64). There used to be a close relationship between Allen Bradley and DEC, as exemplified by AB's "Pyramid Integrator" (a MicroVAX 2000 heart in AB's PLC-style packaging) but that was back in 1988, and the world is different now. "We do have to get a substitute for Allen Bradley Interchange because it will not be upgraded to Integrity. That will be HP Basestar or binary translation" OK. Do you have experience of either of the two BASEstars ("Classic" and "Open", which have little in common except the name) at the moment? I do hope you don't mean you are contemplating binary translation of them. In the case of BASEstar "Open", the product appears to have been available on IA64, presumably compatible with versions on other platforms, so translation would likely be an unnecessary risk. In the case of BASEstar "Classic", HP say it will not be ported to IA64, but the software is sufficiently complex that binary translation would (imo) be a last resort. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't work; many customers have relied on binary translation with other applications, sometimes complex ones, but it is not *guaranteed* to work and your application seems likely to need reasonable guarantees for 24x7 operation in routine (largely testable in advance) and non-routine (not so predictable) conditions. BASEstar Classic does what it does, and does it well, but only on VMS, and not on IA64. BASEstar Open was designed to address the same market but that's where the similarity ends; it was intended from day 1 to be multi-platform, Unix as well as VMS, which leads to a very different product architecture, and (arguably) a much steeper learning curve before you can do anything useful with it. But once you are used to its ways it is potentially more powerful than BASEstar Classic. Be aware also that if you go down this road you will need also the relevant Device Access Software for your chosen BASEstar; I haven't checked lately but this used to be sold and supported separately from the core package, so if you are interested in IA64 you will need to check IA64 availability of this too. If there are still BASEstar or related factory automation experts around within HP or elsewhere, you might want to be talking to them. Actually, for BASEstar Open in particular, you *will* want to be talking to them. Once again, apologies if this is all known to you already, but some of these minor details can be showstoppers and I don't recall seeing them mentioned so far. Wrt due diligence: with all due respect to FredK, and bearing in mind that readers here know little in detail about what's important to your application: I agree with JF, it's probably in your own and your client's interests to do at least some basic level of investigation of other platforms for your application (both other OSes and other automation/integration packages), bearing in mind your knowledge of what is important to your client's business, and also bearing in mind the possible complexity of migration from Interchange to BASEstar (or anything similar, regardless of platform). You know what's involved here, other readers don't. Maybe you trust HP's promises and predictions, maybe you don't. Either way, you and your client may not want to be thinking about migration again in another (say) five years. This and other reasons logically rule out Windows as a platform to migrate to, but that still leaves a few options open, and for the many whose thinking isn't constrained by logic, there are plenty of Windows-based SCADA-type packages which offer Allen Bradley connectivity but may or may not satisfy the rest of your customers needs. Hth, JW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:08:07 -0400 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: Re: Is this Address really Illegal? Message-ID: <015801c7dd35$a8932810$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP> >... > depends on how it is implemented. In any event, being as the domain ends > in ".cn" complaining is a waste of time and in many cases, for me, has > resulted in an increase in the number of attacks from that block rather > than a decrease. Nowadays, depending on where and what the attacking > block is, I may block them at my firewall, but I never complain as it > is totally ineffective and can easily result in bigger problems. >... Bill, I always complain when someone attacks my system because if you ingore the problem then you are part of the problem. I have never seen an increase in attacks because of a complaint, but I have had positive feedback. Sending an abuse report only takes seconds and it feels good when you get a reply that some Unix box was hacked into. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial Hardware ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:04:51 -0700 From: urbancamo Subject: Re: OpenVMS 8.3 Standalone backup error Message-ID: <1186945491.494671.264830@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Isn't comp.os.vms fantastic... Thank you for all replying with help - on a Sunday, of all days. I really appreciate it. This OS deserves another 25 years of life. I'll be buying that IA64 server just to feel like I'm part of such of a fantastic group of people. I'd really like to give something back, and in time I will... Cheers - live life tomorrow like you know you're blessed - it's much better than being miserable! Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:12:16 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: TCP/IP Source files and or BGDRIVER help Message-ID: Hi, Is the BGDRIVER source code available as part of the VMS source listing kit? I don't recall ever seeing them, and believe the answer to be no, but either way could someone help with the following question. To set the scene, I have a server Socket with both OOB and READ attention ASTs declared on it and the client has just disconnected their side of the link. Now, those of you who may have done this know that UCX (and Multinet) fire both the OOB and READ attention ASTs in the order they were last declared in, but what I dearly'd love to know is: - After receiving the non-inlined OOB does UCX stay at raised IPL until *both* the READATTN AST and the OOBATTN AST have been queued? In otherwords, is AST delivery disabled temporarily (throught elevated IPL or other means) so that the first AST does not gain control, start executing, and possibly complete *before* the second (OOB or READ) attention AST has been queued? Pretty straight forward eh? I'm reasonably confident the answer is yes but then that could imply some sort of sequential scan through the ASTs that need to be delivered, and it could be argued that the FIFO delivery seems to contradict this. Cheers Richard Maher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:49:24 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: TCP/IP Source files and or BGDRIVER help Message-ID: <1186966164.300487.52390@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On 13 Aug, 00:12, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi, > > Is the BGDRIVER source code available as part of the VMS source listing kit? > I don't recall ever seeing them, and believe the answer to be no, but either > way could someone help with the following question. > > To set the scene, I have a server Socket with both OOB and READ attention > ASTs declared on it and the client has just disconnected their side of the > link. Now, those of you who may have done this know that UCX (and Multinet) > fire both the OOB and READ attention ASTs in the order they were last > declared in, but what I dearly'd love to know is: - > > After receiving the non-inlined OOB does UCX stay at raised IPL until *both* > the READATTN AST and the OOBATTN AST have been queued? In otherwords, is AST > delivery disabled temporarily (throught elevated IPL or other means) so that > the first AST does not gain control, start executing, and possibly complete > *before* the second (OOB or READ) attention AST has been queued? > > Pretty straight forward eh? I'm reasonably confident the answer is yes but > then that could imply some sort of sequential scan through the ASTs that > need to be delivered, and it could be argued that the FIFO delivery seems to > contradict this. > > Cheers Richard Maher I'd doubt that the code for BGDriver is in the source listings for VMS - it is, after all, part of the TCP/IP Services layered product and not VMS. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:17:46 +1000 From: Jim Duff Subject: Re: TCP/IP Source files and or BGDRIVER help Message-ID: <46bfbf4b$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi, > > Is the BGDRIVER source code available as part of the VMS source listing kit? > I don't recall ever seeing them, and believe the answer to be no, but either > way could someone help with the following question. > > To set the scene, I have a server Socket with both OOB and READ attention > ASTs declared on it and the client has just disconnected their side of the > link. Now, those of you who may have done this know that UCX (and Multinet) > fire both the OOB and READ attention ASTs in the order they were last > declared in, but what I dearly'd love to know is: - > > After receiving the non-inlined OOB does UCX stay at raised IPL until *both* > the READATTN AST and the OOBATTN AST have been queued? In otherwords, is AST > delivery disabled temporarily (throught elevated IPL or other means) so that > the first AST does not gain control, start executing, and possibly complete > *before* the second (OOB or READ) attention AST has been queued? > > [snip] If they are delivered in the order they were declared, and they are both user mode ASTs, one is going to execute and complete before the other always, as ASTs at the same mode cannot interrupt each other. That is, if the driver maintains IPL and queues both, or drops IPL in between queuing the first and the second, the end result to the target process is the same. Or am I missing something? Jim -- www.eight-cubed.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:53:56 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: TPU on MAC OS-X ? Message-ID: In article <131899468.539oBBZa67@linux1.krischik.com>, Martin Krischik wrote: > P. Sture wrote: > > > In article <2721714.3M88bkd2e5@linux1.krischik.com>, > > Martin Krischik wrote: > Getting DecTerm to display black in bright white is not at all difficult. It > mostly works the same way you get Xterm to display black in bright white. > Just the name for the configuration file is different (DecW$DecTerminal.dat > or so). Or you use the master configuration file DecW$XDefaults.Dat. Since it's a user preference, you might want to have lines like the following in your user-specific file rather than assuming everyone wants the same system-wide setting: $ search sys$login:decw$terminal_default.dat foreground,background DECW$TERMINAL.main.terminal.background: White DECW$TERMINAL.main.terminal.foreground: Black > What I meant is "SPAWN /NoWait Eve /Interface=DecWindows" or "SPAWN /NoWait > LSEdit /Interface=DecWindows". As an old time user you might consider it > strange but for learning you way around a new Editor drop down menu are > indeed very helpfull. I couldn't find this documented anywhere, but if you want black text on a white background in the Motif version of EVE/TPU, do the following: $ copy/log sys$library:eve.dat sys$login: Edit the eve.dat in your login directory and add the following two lines: Tpu*foreground: black Tpu*background: white Add the following line to your login.com: $ DEFINE TPU$DEFAULTS SYS$LOGIN:EVE.DAT Run your login.com or log out and log back in again. The next time you do EDIT/DISPLAY=M, you'll see your black text on a white background. > >> Apart from that: those in our team who want the named features either use > >> Vim or Ms-Windows UltraEdit (copying the sources back and forth from > >> VMS). You may want to look into NetBeans or Distributed NetBeans if the goal is to edit OpenVMS files in an environment that has all the pointy, clicky, plugin-aware. color-enabled features and that runs on OpenVMS or other platforms or (in the case of the distributed version) OpenVMS in conjunction with other platforms: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/ There is also jEdit. Not sure about Eclipse, but there are likely other options if you go looking for them. > > Trust me. If you had been using either EDIT/EDT or TPU with the EDT > > keypad for as long as many of us here have, you'd be transferring > > Windows files to a VMS system to do your editing, not the other way > > around! HP's NetBeans project has a widget they call the old-timers' plug-in -- no wait, they actually call it the "EDT Editor Keybindings Module": http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/modules.html#edt I've never used it, but it's supposed to work anywhere you run NetBeans (i.e., not just on OpenVMS). -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:41:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <1cb26$46bfb6e7$cef8887a$8046@TEKSAVVY.COM> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > It may seem a bit paradoxical but the reason why there haven't been tons of > independently wriiten VMS books is that they weren't needed. VMS has always had > tons of excellent documentation. A friend, brought up on Windows, is switching to Linux. He told me that he was having a hard time. My response was that to learn a new OS, you need good documentation. His response "I can tell you come from a VMS world". His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps that is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux out. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:07:40 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/12/07 20:41, JF Mezei wrote: > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> It may seem a bit paradoxical but the reason why there haven't been >> tons of independently wriiten VMS books is that they weren't needed. >> VMS has always had >> tons of excellent documentation. > > > A friend, brought up on Windows, is switching to Linux. He told me that > he was having a hard time. My response was that to learn a new OS, you > need good documentation. His response "I can tell you come from a VMS > world". What your friend needs are: 1. Good Googling skills (most answers *really are* out there), and 2. a spirit of exploration. Or... an angel to set it up for him. (That's what I did back in 2000.) > His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good > documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps that > is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force > for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux out. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 04:14:47 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] > Sent: August 9, 2007 12:28 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal > champion > > > > >To this day IBM does not have a distributed lock manager nor a > >distributed transaction manager. Both of which are required to > >perform fault tolerant transactions. > > UH- CICS, now known as "Transaction Server" has been around near on 40 > years now and supportd distributed confgurations as well as isloated > configurations. A very large percentage of anything like real time > financial transacitons in the world goes through CICS. The HP ADCM > product is somewhat similar. > > This is something that VMS does well, don't take me wrong, but how does > it do it differently or better than IBM? I see VMS has fitting in much > better in smaller, "batch" distributed systems, with many smaller nodes > sized appropriately to the location. You can do that with IBM gear of > course, but it scales differently. > > Or to say that differently, VMS scales like a micro z/OS into many > situations, with appropriate security and processing power. z/OS just > doesn't scale *down* all that well, because it takes significant skill > just to get it installed, much less operating with tuned specs. VMS is > much easier indeed. A BIG selling point in the SMB market place. > > Even though there are some very large VMS sites out there (I'm > impressed) I'm not sure that VMS is the target of choice for VL > environments. I am willing to be convinced otherwise. :) > Well, I guess the answer to this would depend on whether you consider the m= ission critical processing environments for VL banks, stock exchange and ot= her financial systems, lotteries, gaming systems, telecom (like the one sup= porting American Idol), health companies, insurance companies, retail, semi= conductor mfging (e.g. Intel and most other top chip makers). One OpenVMS environment I know of actually handles trillions of USD $'s *pe= r day* through its circuits. So, I guess you would have to define what you think is a VL environment. :-) [snip] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:35:30 +0200 From: Martin Krischik Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <3026481.TD0fA6xot1@linux1.krischik.com> Doug Phillips wrote: > I can't guess what IBM's plans might be for > Power. Power or PowerPC? There was a heated debate about this - especially from those who do not know the difference. I don't blame anybody for not knowing - the names are so similar. But once you do look closely it becomes quite clear: Power is a server CPU and PowerPC is a desktop CPU. Apple of course used PowerPC and without Apple the PowerPC movement finally died (OS/2 for PowerPC never even left the labs :-( ) Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:55:16 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <1186944916.424410.261360@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 12, 12:35 pm, Martin Krischik wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > I can't guess what IBM's plans might be for > > Power. > > Power or PowerPC? There was a heated debate about this - especially from > those who do not know the difference. I don't blame anybody for not > knowing - the names are so similar. > Right. Analogous to the difference between Pentium and Xeon from what I understand. Please correct me if that's wrong. > But once you do look closely it becomes quite clear: Power is a server CPU > and PowerPC is a desktop CPU. Apple of course used PowerPC and without > Apple the PowerPC movement finally died (OS/2 for PowerPC never even left > the labs :-( ) > I haven't really had the need or desire to explore either Power or PowerPC other than to read the announcements and such. Cell got my attention, but I have no feel for where that's going. Trying to fight against the Microsoft/Intel tide has ruined a lot of good plans; even when you're a giant named IBM. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:29:34 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/11/07 19:54, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] >> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 6:35 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal >> champion >> >> In article <46BE22A7.6050105@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> writes: >> >>> I've done controller (HSC) based volume shadowing, Host Based Volume >>> Shadowing and hardware mirroring (HSZ based). I think I prefer the >> later! >> >> That is the point - with VMS you get to choose. In other environments >> people are forced down the hardware mirroring path. > > No, they are not. Even Windows provides software RAID capability - at no > extra cost. > So does Linux, AIX, i5OS, etc. > > It's just that hardware based SAN management is better in many environments. > > I wonder if a VMS system could be configured to support 10GB iSCSI systems? > That would be kinda cool. FCP would be better in many cases of course, > especially if the system has a built in fibre switch as well as a few > built in Ethernet switches. MMm... Google is your friend! http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps_files/openvms_roadmaps.pdf Pages 17 and 20. With some deeper looking, you would surely find actual products. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:56:18 +0200 From: Martin Krischik Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <8543864.tFJM60ChxJ@linux1.krischik.com> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk > writes: > >> The password history list on some OSs is so small (or non-existent) that >> there is a risk of a user keeping a favourite password forever by simply >> changing the password enough times and then changing it back to the >> original password. > > The VMS system manager can make the password history list quite short, > with a number like 3, but the user still will not be able to use that > trick. Those who attempt it will be thrown into generated password mode. Which will mean that he will write down the password. Password security need to be balanced very carefully. If you tighten it to much then users won't be able to memorise there passwords any more they will start to write them down. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:35:36 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/12/07 13:55, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 12, 12:35 pm, Martin Krischik > wrote: >> Doug Phillips wrote: >>> I can't guess what IBM's plans might be for >>> Power. >> Power or PowerPC? There was a heated debate about this - especially from >> those who do not know the difference. I don't blame anybody for not >> knowing - the names are so similar. >> > > Right. Analogous to the difference between Pentium and Xeon from what > I understand. Please correct me if that's wrong. IBM has also pushed it deep into the embedded space, as a low-power "core" that can be integrated with other functionality on-chip. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:51:47 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/12/07 13:56, Martin Krischik wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk >> writes: >> >>> The password history list on some OSs is so small (or non-existent) that >>> there is a risk of a user keeping a favourite password forever by simply >>> changing the password enough times and then changing it back to the >>> original password. >> The VMS system manager can make the password history list quite short, >> with a number like 3, but the user still will not be able to use that >> trick. Those who attempt it will be thrown into generated password mode. > > Which will mean that he will write down the password. Password security need > to be balanced very carefully. If you tighten it to much then users won't > be able to memorise there passwords any more they will start to write them > down. I use a "password manager" with SecureCRT. Actually, it's just a .vbs script that has all the passwords to all the hosts that I deal with at work. So I choose that host from the drop-down list, and, viola, 15 seconds later, I'm at a $ prompt. *Very* handy. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:48:13 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <46BF720D.9050208@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/11/07 19:54, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] >>>Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 6:35 PM >>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal >>>champion >>> >>>In article <46BE22A7.6050105@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>> writes: >>> >>> >>>>I've done controller (HSC) based volume shadowing, Host Based Volume >>>>Shadowing and hardware mirroring (HSZ based). I think I prefer the >>> >>>later! >>> >>>That is the point - with VMS you get to choose. In other environments >>>people are forced down the hardware mirroring path. >> >>No, they are not. Even Windows provides software RAID capability - at no >>extra cost. It does? Windows XP Professional? W2K Professional? Or are you talking about server versions? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:19:58 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>> That is the point - with VMS you get to choose. In other environments >>>> people are forced down the hardware mirroring path. >>> >>> No, they are not. Even Windows provides software RAID capability - at no >>> extra cost. > > It does? Windows XP Professional? W2K Professional? Or are you > talking about server versions? > It should be some server/enterprise edition of Windows, after all, we are talking about *VMS* here, not some desktop/workstation OS... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:58:23 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <001801c7dd34$49850240$dc8f06c0$@com> > > x86 comes to mind, but if there were a spin > > to address > > the hardware sales angle, Power might be a tempting target. More like > a VAX > > than the > > x86 is anyway... :) > > You mean "more like Alpha" I think? Power is RISC. I don't know Power > intimately, but do I know it's a completely different beast. With > Apple moving to X86-64, I can't guess what IBM's plans might be for > Power. I know IBM is helping push x86 performance up the scale. If it > were up to me (which it isn't) I wouldn't port to Power. Then again, I > don't know how Cell might factor into it all. > Nope - I meant more like a Vax. An ancestor of the PowerPC chip is the 680x0 line, so you find the way registers are used and such more like the Vax than like the PC. Also, more like a mainframe, but for slightly different reasons. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:03:09 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <001901c7dd34$f3bcc0e0$db3642a0$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:48 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal > champion > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 08/11/07 19:54, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] > >>>Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 6:35 PM > >>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >>>Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an > internal > >>>champion > >>> > >>>In article <46BE22A7.6050105@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" > >>> writes: > >>> > >>> > >>>>I've done controller (HSC) based volume shadowing, Host Based > Volume > >>>>Shadowing and hardware mirroring (HSZ based). I think I prefer > the > >>> > >>>later! > >>> > >>>That is the point - with VMS you get to choose. In other > environments > >>>people are forced down the hardware mirroring path. > >> > >>No, they are not. Even Windows provides software RAID capability - at > no > >>extra cost. > > It does? Windows XP Professional? W2K Professional? Or are you > talking about server versions? Sure - anything new enough to have Disk Management I think, and ServerOS for absolute certain. You just put the partition in storage manager. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:32:27 GMT From: "Scott" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: >> >>No, they are not. Even Windows provides software RAID capability - at >> no extra cost. >> >> It does? Windows XP Professional? W2K Professional? Or are you >> talking about server versions? > > Sure - anything new enough to have Disk Management I think, and ServerOS for > absolute certain. You just put the partition in storage manager. > > -Paul > Windows has done software RAID since NT4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:52:17 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > It should be some server/enterprise edition of Windows, after all, > we are talking about *VMS* here, not some desktop/workstation OS... The VMS we know and love scaled from workstation to data centre. And you could shadow disks on workstations, you could run batch jobs to make use of spare CPU capacity on workstations (especially during lunch time when workstations are idle etc). It is just a bunch of idiots who priced VMS out of the workstation market and then looking at statistics, decided that nobody wanted VMS for workstations and stopped developping the very apps that could have made VMS grow. When you look at how efficient VMS is compared to Windows (in terms of memory usage, process control etc), VMS would make a great workstation OS had the owners not decided to stop developping apps on VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:14:40 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net] > Sent: August 10, 2007 11:38 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal > champion > > On Aug 10, 8:24 am, yyyc186 wrote: > >[attribution not quoted by yyyc186] > > > Probably depends on your definition of cluster. But let's assume > > > the VMS definition. This has been asked before but never answered. > > > Forgetting Hobbyist systems where they cluster for the sake of > > > clustering, what percentage of real, production VMS systems are > > > clusters as opposed to stand alone systems? Why would Unix bother > > > implementing something that has little if any need? When a Beowulf > > > style cluster became needed, it was written (and actually, that's > not > > > the only kind available on Unix.) And then we also had Amoeba > Clusters, > > > which, if nothing else, showed how little interest there really was > > > in clustering beyond looking at it from an academic standpoint. > > > > I've spent 20 years in this field on OpenVMS and other platforms. > > I've never been to an OpenVMS shop for any company grossing >$2mil in > > sales which wasn't fully using a cluster. Most went all the way > using > > ACMS to distribute transactions across the entire cluster. > > I think >$2mil gross is at *least* a factor of 10 too low, unless you > mean net rather than gross. It does depend on the industry and > application, though. A $2mil company with a high profit margin that > depends on 24/7 operation could justify it. That company would also be > expecting fast growth and would not plan to remain a $2mil company for > long. This isn't the typical $2 to $10mil company, however. VMS > clustering is expensive. > > Apparently even HP can't justify OpenVMS clustering their own 24/7 > services; like the ITRC forum, for example. (just couldn't resist that > little dig) Here are just a few recent examples of OpenVMS clustering by what would be considered SMB companies: http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-7388EEE.pdf (full) http://h71028.www7.hp.com/erc/library/GetPage.aspx?pageid=3D496911 (condens= ed) http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5983-2346EN.pdf http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-3672ENE.pdf http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/Downloads/4AA0-8708EEW.pdf Imagine a company wanting rock solid, very high stable applications with ul= tra-high security that does not require 5-20 security patches per month - w= hat a novel idea! :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:25:11 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/12/07 17:58, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>> x86 comes to mind, but if there were a spin >>> to address >>> the hardware sales angle, Power might be a tempting target. More like >> a VAX >>> than the >>> x86 is anyway... :) >> You mean "more like Alpha" I think? Power is RISC. I don't know Power >> intimately, but do I know it's a completely different beast. With >> Apple moving to X86-64, I can't guess what IBM's plans might be for >> Power. I know IBM is helping push x86 performance up the scale. If it >> were up to me (which it isn't) I wouldn't port to Power. Then again, I >> don't know how Cell might factor into it all. >> > Nope - I meant more like a Vax. An ancestor of the PowerPC chip is the 680x0 > line, so you find the way registers are used and such more like the Vax than I don't *doubt* you, but have never read even a whisper that the 68K line had any kind of influence over the Power, other than generic stuff like "orthogonal instructions are a Good Thing". > like the PC. Also, more like a mainframe, but for slightly different > reasons. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:33:16 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net] > Sent: August 10, 2007 12:57 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal > champion > > On Aug 10, 10:51 am, yyyc186 wrote: > > > I think >$2mil gross is at *least* a factor of 10 too low, unless > you > > > mean net rather than gross. It does depend on the industry and > > > application, though. A $2mil company with a high profit margin that > > > depends on 24/7 operation could justify it. That company would also > be > > > expecting fast growth and would not plan to remain a $2mil company > for > > > long. This isn't the typical $2 to $10mil company, however. VMS > > > clustering is expensive. > > > > The smallest was a company that did $2mil in a lean year and much > more > > in a good year. They made garage doors. Why a cluster? When the > > work orders stopped printing on the factory floor, they stopped > making > > money. They were no where near leading edge. Using MicroVax 3200 > > when everybody else had moved to Alpha. They didn't need horsepower, > > having upgrade from VAX 11/750 to the 3200 platform. They just > needed > > uptime. > > Ok, that's one. But you said: > > > > > I've never been to an OpenVMS shop for any company grossing > >$2mil in > > > > sales which wasn't fully using a cluster. Most went all the way > using > > > > ACMS to distribute transactions across the entire cluster. > > Unless your experience is limited to just that company, I take issue > with "any" and "most." I've worked with many >$2 <$20mil companies, > and I've only seen a few that used a VMS cluster. I have seen more > than a few >$20mil companies clustered. I've seen smaller divisions of > large companies running cluster, and maybe those were $2 sales > centers; I don't know, but I don't think so. > > Most of the clustered companies that I know of (and VMS ones, for that > matter) have a history of using DEC equipment going back to PDP or DEC > 10/20. > > 20 years ago, clustering was uncommon. 40 years ago when I started in > this business, it was non-existent. Today it's certainly more common, > but by no means is it pervasive. > > Tomorrow, who knows? I suspect it may be as common as RAID and MP has > become today. It won't be OpenVMS that moves it there, though, unless > many things change drastically. I feel I can say that because I'm one > of the staunchest VMS bigots you'll ever meet, but I'm also a realist > who is paying attention to what's happening in the industry. [btw - experiment to see if this is any better from line break perspective] Clustering is a technology that supports the business drivers. But what are the emerging new business drivers? Even up to a few years ago, you could shut systems down after hours or on weekends and do what ever you wanted. Since systems were also very distributed, you only impacted the local branch or office, so as long as you blessed the shutdown with the local manager, you were typically ok to do whatever you wanted after hours. Linux and Windows were the primary systems as everyone could buy one locally and who cared about stds as long as it met the local requirements? Fast forward to today and tomorrow where the following is the major IT driver by far: "Reduce IT costs." Period. This is typically number 1 item on every CXX agenda. And they are looking for major cuts - often in 20-30+ % range. Based on this driver, the following are a few trends starting to emerge: 1. With Windows and Linux (and many UNIX environments as well) servers running at 10-25% system utilization in peak times and network costs dropping through the floor, consolidation is the new strategy being pushed big time. De-centralized computing strategists are the new "dinosaurs". 2. Wintel systems are the primary target for consolidation - typically 70-80% of the consolidation focus today is on reducing number of Wintel servers. Linux/UNIX are next, but are typically considered secondary targets. This is reason why VMware is so hot these days. 3. Centralization is back big time. This means server and DC consolidation is absolutely white hot. Very few med-large companies are not doing or planning server and/or DC consolidation initiatives. 4. Centralization means rock solid solutions with ultra-high application availability in the neighbourhood of 24x7x365. Since these solutions will be serving a much wider audience that includes the Internet, a much more mobile workforce and a much closer watched regulatory environment e.g. HIPPA, SOX, FERPA, BASEL II etc., scheduling downtime will become exponentially harder to get than today. Multi-site, very HA, very secure solutions will become much more common than today. 5. There are 2 primary types of virtualization - OS stacking and Application stacking. OS stacking (VMware etc) provides a small amount of savings focussed on HW, DC space, cooling etc. It does not reduce the number of OS's, hence does not reduce FTE counts which is typically 60-70% of most IT budgets today. Application stacking is what will be the next major wave as companies attack the number of OS's and focus on FTE count reductions where their biggest opportunity for IT cost reductions is. 6. While the past IT environment was often driven by each BU doing what they felt like to address their own challenges, the future is heading towards BU's dictating their requirements and IT Operations providing the solution (working closely with BU of course). There will be less focus on what is "cool stuff" and more on what can be done in the quickest way to support the business drivers. 7. While Wintel / Linux (and some UNIX environments) will face technical challenges moving to application stacking, their major challenge will be to change the culture of one app-one server. Huge politics and culture issues here. Note - OpenVMS (and z/OS for that matter) culture has always done app stacking, so there is not the same future challenges of App stacking. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:38:48 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:25:11 -0700, Ron Johnson wrote: > I don't *doubt* you, but have never read even a whisper that the 68K > line had any kind of influence over the Power, other than generic > stuff like "orthogonal instructions are a Good Thing". I don't there was any architectural connection. Motorola under contract produced a set of chips using the underlying 68K technology which implmented the 370 instruction set in the early 80s it was short-lived and known as PC-370. I would not have characterized 68K aqs orthogonal, NS32032 was. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.co ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:14:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <54c0$46bfccb3$cef8887a$19807@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mime-Version: 1.0 >[btw - experiment to see if this is any better from line break perspective] > >Clustering is a technology that supports the business drivers. > >But what are the emerging new business drivers? > >Even up to a few years ago, you could shut systems down after hours or on >weekends and do what ever you wanted. Since systems were also very Yes, that message was properly formatted, with real line breaks between words near the line boundary. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:34:42 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/12/07 21:38, Tom Linden wrote: [snip] > I would not have characterized 68K aqs orthogonal, NS32032 was. Why do you say that? With few exceptions, all of the relevant instructions could operate on registers, memory locations or indirect references. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.441 ************************