INFO-VAX Thu, 06 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 486 Contents: Re: Alpha ZIP and GZIP Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Re: cannot ssh login with expired password RE: COBOL Transactions? Re: Copyrightability? (was Re: VMS License Plates) Re: Could disk shadowing stress SCSI? Re: Could disk shadowing stress SCSI? DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 DELTA debugger image fix for V7.3-2 FS: VMS manuals Hein has left the building? Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) How to design test case for VAX System Re: How to design test case for VAX System Re: How to design test case for VAX System Re: How to design test case for VAX System Re: I have to tell you this Re: I have to tell you this Re: I have to tell you this Re: I have to tell you this Re: I have to tell you this Re: I have to tell you this Re: I have to tell you this Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... INFO-VAX Gateway down? Re: INFO-VAX Gateway down? Re: INFO-VAX Gateway down? Re: Nasty? was: SSH login welcome message? Open source graphic drivers Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Program Counter Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? RE: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Re: References: header (was Re: Exporting data tied up in a VAX/VMS system) syst SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Re: USB Modem Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: Volume Shadowing Availability Re: Volume Shadowing Availability X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question Re: X windows display extensions question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:29:15 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Alpha ZIP and GZIP Message-ID: <07090322291540_20247752@antinode.org> From: Glenn Everhart > ZIP can easily preserve VMS file characteristics if the "-V" switch > is used (I generally have to quote the options to get uppercase V to > Zip). Quoting continues to work, even when it's not needed. > This has been working fine for many years. However note: a Zip > file made this way will store underlying files the way they exist in VMS, > so if you want to read them on some heathen system that uses streams > you will need a program to convert the record lengths followed by data into > delimited records. Remember that odd record lengths get null padded also! Note, however, that most non-VMS UnZip programs are built by deafult with "VMS_TEXT_CONV" defined, which should provide some basic text-file format conversion, so you may find that things just work. The heathen "zip -v" should mention "VMS_TEXT_CONV" if it's enabled. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:02:38 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Message-ID: <1188990158.935070.195240@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Santa Clara (CA) - Last week, Intel released eight technical papers providing details about its Tera-scale project. TG Daily had an opportunity to discuss the technology with Jerry Bautista, director of technology management at Intel. Could Tera-scale become the x86 killer? The Tera-scale project is currently has over 100 separate teams work on it. Intel is working on everything from electrical foundations all the way up to the software. Some of the research Bautista was able to share with us indicated how powerful this project is and why Intel is throwing so many resources at it. In February 2007, a prototype chip was built on 65nm process technologies. It clocked at nearly 3.16 - 5.8 GHz, had 80 separate compute cores operating internally, and it ran through six different customized benchmarks with each using traditional compute burdens. The result was a remarkable 1.01 Teraflops of parallel computing on just 62 watts of input power (1.63 Teraflops at 5.1 GHz and 175 watts, and 1.81 Teraflops at 5.7 GHz and 265 watts). While that level of computing for a single chip is impressive in and of itself, the process and mechanics of how Intel got there are at least as impressive. Click here to read the whole article: http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33657/135/ NSR ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 12:09:50 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Message-ID: <5k7kkeF2e45jU2@mid.individual.net> In article <1188990158.935070.195240@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck writes: > Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project > > Santa Clara (CA) - Last week, Intel released eight technical papers > providing details about its Tera-scale project. TG Daily had an > opportunity to discuss the technology with Jerry Bautista, director of > technology management at Intel. Could Tera-scale become the x86 > killer? > If this is going to be "the x86 killer" what do you suppose it will do to Itanium? :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 08:22:28 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Message-ID: <46DE9F84.2040304@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <1188990158.935070.195240@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > Neil Rieck writes: > >>Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project >> >>Santa Clara (CA) - Last week, Intel released eight technical papers >>providing details about its Tera-scale project. TG Daily had an >>opportunity to discuss the technology with Jerry Bautista, director of >>technology management at Intel. Could Tera-scale become the x86 >>killer? >> > > > If this is going to be "the x86 killer" what do you suppose it will do > to Itanium? :-) What could it do to Itanic that it's owners/developers have not already done to Itanic? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 08:20:51 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Message-ID: <1189005651.931048.64600@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Neil Rieck wrote: > Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project > > Santa Clara (CA) - Last week, Intel released eight technical papers > providing details about its Tera-scale project. TG Daily had an > opportunity to discuss the technology with Jerry Bautista, director of > technology management at Intel. Could Tera-scale become the x86 > killer? > > The Tera-scale project is currently has over 100 separate teams work > on it. Intel is working on everything from electrical foundations all > the way up to the software. Some of the research Bautista was able to > share with us indicated how powerful this project is and why Intel is > throwing so many resources at it. > > In February 2007, a prototype chip was built on 65nm process > technologies. It clocked at nearly 3.16 - 5.8 GHz, had 80 separate > compute cores operating internally, and it ran through six different > customized benchmarks with each using traditional compute burdens. > The result was a remarkable 1.01 Teraflops of parallel computing on > just 62 watts of input power (1.63 Teraflops at 5.1 GHz and 175 watts, > and 1.81 Teraflops at 5.7 GHz and 265 watts). While that level of > computing for a single chip is impressive in and of itself, the > process and mechanics of how Intel got there are at least as > impressive. > > Click here to read the whole article: > http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33657/135/ > Apparently the editor who wrote the "x86 killer" lead-in for this article didn't take the time to read it. Or, Rick C. Hodgin didn't understand what he was writing. The Tera-scale project has nothing to do with instruction sets. ++ "Even IA-32 cores could be integrated into the Tera-scale chip. An implementation of the Exoskeleton solution that Intel has been working on for IA-32 would allow the non-IA-32 cores to be presented to external software as if they were IA-32. This virtualization of compute resources opens up another door for the future." ++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:55:47 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Background: Inside Intel's Tera-scale project Message-ID: <9e1b5$46dedf95$cef8887a$24247@TEKSAVVY.COM> >Could Tera-scale become the x86 killer? My take on this is that this is like the IBM Blue-Gene project. Let some engineers play out there in the wold and come up with interesting technologies. Make a big demo of it, and then integrate some of those technologies into your commercial products. The 8086 instruction set is here to stay. How they implement its underpinning will likely change and it has already changed a lot since the original days of the 8086. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:52:06 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:35:43 -0700, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Ed Wilts wrote: >> On Aug 24, 8:34 am, Neil Lowden wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys >>> >>> There was a document kicking around some 10 years ago that gave a >>> mathematical analysis of relative availability with single, two and >>> three member shadow sets. Guess it was about 15-20 pages long. >>> >>> Anyone have an electronic copy or know where it was published? >> I don't have an electronic copy handy but I believe it was in a >> presentation by Ken Bates. I've heard that Ken has since retired >> (damn!) and I don't know who has access to his old papers. My best >> guess would be to search the Decus presentation archives (if they >> exist) for Ken's papers - beware, however, that there were a *LOT* of >> them since he was at just about every darn conference anywhere in the >> world (or at least it seemed like it). >> If I remember right, a 3 member shadow set should be good for about >> 200 years. >> > > Only if someone keeps replacing the disks as they fail! > > Heard a discussion on the radio yesterday as I was driving, Photographer was being interviewed talking about films media nd the like and he said there were only 2 types of disc drives, those that have failed and those that are going to fail. Cleverly put, but it got me to thinking and googling today for various ways to backup discs. What is the future here? Is Blu-ray or HD DVD viable, how good is the media? Anyway just wondering what others are thinking about in this realm -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 09:52:08 +0200 From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <46dfb1a8$1@merkur.rz.uni-konstanz.de> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:35:43 -0700, Richard B. Gilbert > wrote: > >> Ed Wilts wrote: >>> On Aug 24, 8:34 am, Neil Lowden wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Guys >>>> >>>> There was a document kicking around some 10 years ago that gave a >>>> mathematical analysis of relative availability with single, two and >>>> three member shadow sets. Guess it was about 15-20 pages long. >>>> >>>> Anyone have an electronic copy or know where it was published? >>> I don't have an electronic copy handy but I believe it was in a >>> presentation by Ken Bates. I've heard that Ken has since retired >>> (damn!) and I don't know who has access to his old papers. My best >>> guess would be to search the Decus presentation archives (if they >>> exist) for Ken's papers - beware, however, that there were a *LOT* of >>> them since he was at just about every darn conference anywhere in the >>> world (or at least it seemed like it). >>> If I remember right, a 3 member shadow set should be good for about >>> 200 years. >>> >> >> Only if someone keeps replacing the disks as they fail! >> >> >Heard a discussion on the radio yesterday as I was driving, Photographer >>was >being interviewed talking about films media nd the like and he said there >were only 2 types of disc drives, those that have failed and those that >are >going to fail. > >Cleverly put, but it got me to thinking and googling today for various >ways >to backup discs. What is the future here? Is Blu-ray or HD DVD viable, >>how >good is the media? Anyway just wondering what others are thinking about >in >this realm > > >-- >PL/I for OpenVMS >www.kednos.com > 1. Shadowing doesn't help if data were deleted erroneously. 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and does verify after write automatically. 3. You can buy Blu-Ray recorders now (Never saw a HD DVD recorder on the German market till now!). 4. You can buy DVDwrite to produce Blu-Ray discs under OpenVMS now. See www.dvdwrite.de Hope this helps Eberhard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:29:09 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: > 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and > does verify after write automatically. Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as short term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not be used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is better visibility on what will happen to this market. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:29:18 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Message-ID: <20070904092918.GA51913@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 07:46:55AM -0700, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Sep 3, 7:26 am, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > > I've a VMS user with PWDLIFETIME of 90 days. When the password is > > expired I cannot login via ssh. No error is given, the output is > > identical to the case of wrong password, i.e. after 3 attempts, > > the login process is aborted. I have to login via console, where > > I'm informed that the password is expired and I have to change it. > > > > Is this the expected behaviour? > > > It depends on which TCP/IP stack you are using as well as what client > s/w you are using. > > We ran into this problem in March-2007 while running TCPware-5.7-2 on > OpenVMS along with Reflection-14 on Windows-XP. > > To fix this problem we needed to apply SSH patches for TCPware along > with patch 14.2-1 for Reflection. my ssh comes by default with the base FBSD 6.2-STABLE: % ssh -V OpenSSH_4.5p1 FreeBSD-20061110, OpenSSL 0.9.7e-p1 25 Oct 2004 % Letter "p" in the version number apparently means portable, which according to this port's description: % pwd /usr/ports/security/openssh-portable % cat pkg-descr OpenBSD's OpenSSH portable version Normal OpenSSH development produces a very small, secure, and easy to maintain version for the OpenBSD project. The OpenSSH Portability Team takes that pure version and adds portability code so that OpenSSH can run on many other operating systems (Unfortunately, in particular since OpenSSH does authentication, it runs into a *lot* of differences between Unix operating systems). The portable OpenSSH follows development of the official version, but releases are not synchronized. Portable releases are marked with a 'p' (e.g. 3.1p1). The official OpenBSD source will never use the 'p' suffix, but will instead increment the version number when they hit 'stable spots' in their development. WWW: http://www.openssh.org/portable.html % Using this port I can upgrade to 4.6p1. But I'm not sure if that will help. I'm rather confused about this issue, as there seem to be several different implementations of ssh, e.g. there are also openssh-3.6.1 and ssh2-3.2.9.1 in the ports. many thanks anton -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:11:40 -0700 From: Jose Baars Subject: Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Message-ID: <1188907900.821810.32360@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> As I'm confined to a simple Windows PC to test this, I am depending on binary Windows packages for OpenSSH, I couldn't find anything more recent than 4.3p2. I tested version OpenSSH_3.8.1p1, OpenSSL 0.9.7d 17 Mar 2004, and OpenSSH_4.3p2, OpenSSL 0.9.8 05 Jul 2005, and both do not work when a password is expired. Putty 6.0 does work. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 08:12:39 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Message-ID: In article <20070903112651.GA48190@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > I've a VMS user with PWDLIFETIME of 90 days. When the password is > expired I cannot login via ssh. No error is given, the output is > identical to the case of wrong password, i.e. after 3 attempts, > the login process is aborted. I have to login via console, where > I'm informed that the password is expired and I have to change it. > > Is this the expected behaviour? SSH does not account for the handshake needed to force password change at login. How much you can get around this probably depends on which SSH you're using. Using Multinet I've been able to put code in sylogin.com that will detect the situation and do a "set password" command, but due to the limits of what "set password" returns to DCL I had to limit the code to forcing a logout after the change whether the change happened or not. What I have is still not fully reliable, but meets the needs for our site. Simply prohibiting ssh login when a password is expired is an available option, but not particularly desireable since SSH users really need to be able to change their passwords via SSH. What's the point of using SSH if you have to change passwords via a non-encrypted protocol (not everyone has access to local terminals)? The fault lies in the current definition of the SSH protocol. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:42:16 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:11:40 -0700, Jose Baars wrote: > As I'm confined to a simple Windows PC to test this, I am depending > on > binary Windows packages for OpenSSH, I couldn't find anything more > recent > than 4.3p2. > > I tested version OpenSSH_3.8.1p1, OpenSSL 0.9.7d 17 Mar 2004, > and OpenSSH_4.3p2, OpenSSL 0.9.8 05 Jul 2005, > and both do not work when a password is expired. > > Putty 6.0 does work. > That should be 0.60 -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:15:31 -0700 From: Jose Baars Subject: Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Message-ID: <1188918931.870346.249400@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> > > Putty 6.0 does work. > > That should be 0.60 > Sorry, I stand corrected, I was off by a factor 10. Can you imagine the speeding tickets I get? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:30:10 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Message-ID: <1188963010.434072.145460@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 9:12 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <20070903112651.GA48...@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > > > I've a VMS user with PWDLIFETIME of 90 days. When the password is > > expired I cannot login via ssh. No error is given, the output is > > identical to the case of wrong password, i.e. after 3 attempts, > > the login process is aborted. I have to login via console, where > > I'm informed that the password is expired and I have to change it. > > > Is this the expected behaviour? > > SSH does not account for the handshake needed to force password > change at login. How much you can get around this probably depends > on which SSH you're using. > > Using Multinet I've been able to put code in sylogin.com that will > detect the situation and do a "set password" command, but due to the > limits of what "set password" returns to DCL I had to limit the code > to forcing a logout after the change whether the change happened or > not. What I have is still not fully reliable, but meets the needs > for our site. > > Simply prohibiting ssh login when a password is expired is an > available option, but not particularly desireable since SSH users > really need to be able to change their passwords via SSH. What's > the point of using SSH if you have to change passwords via a > non-encrypted protocol (not everyone has access to local terminals)? > > The fault lies in the current definition of the SSH protocol. > I might be totally out to lunch here but I was led to believe that SSH2 had these features, and that is why most client s/w first tried to connect using SSH2 before falling back to plain old SSH. So your statement "The fault lies in the current definition of the SSH protocol" is literally true. But we have got this expired password thing working using the latest versions of TCPware along eith Reflection-WRQ (now Attachmate) NSR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:25:39 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Wallace [mailto:johnwallace4@yahoo.spam.co.uk] > Sent: September 2, 2007 6:26 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > > "Main, Kerry" wrote in message > news:C72D63EB292C9E49AED23F705C61957BDE935D97FC@G1W0487.americas.hpqcor > p.net... > > > > For greater HA, install local HW RAID or host based volume shadowing > for all > disks. This > might be a higher charge option for SMB's that do not want to worry > about > tapes, and want > to minimize any dealing with any server issues etc > > > > I'm a bit late to this particlar party, but doesn't there seem to be > some > opportunity for confusion here between the not-all-that-related topics > of > backups vs RAID/data availability? Backups+journals serve quite > different > purposes than RAID. IE what happens when human error or application > error > causes the data on disk to be readable but invalid ? A RAID array on > its own > gives you a highly available but worthless set of data. Proper > procedures > based on tape-style backups (and hopefully some kind of journalling) > hopefully provide a copy of the "last known good" data (as at the most > recent backup/snapshot) and combined with suitable journalling can be > quite > handy in restoring the data to a usable state. Obviously tape-style > backups > don't actually have to go to tape either these days; disk (real or USB) > may > be equally useful. > > The end user might not be the one to do the restore in the case of a > data > corruption, but without a proper backup how is that restore going to be > possible at all? It's been my experience that user/application error > is at > least as likely as hardware failure, but maybe I've just been lucky > with > hardware. > > Regards > John John, I was not promoting not doing backups, but rather still doing backups to a = designated Maint disk locally with regular off-site backups copied to a remote site, t= hen a DVD/tape is created & shipped to a company that handles media archiving. This then p= rovides the capability for someone remotely to restore the files from the online disk b= ackups on the "maint" disk and also do a DR restore if required. To ensure a lights-out environment as much as possible, one option is to bu= ild HA Features using either HBVS or HW RAID into the overall solution. The issue with tapes locally in any environment where there are only secret= aries or office admin staff is that they are constantly forgetting to change tapes or put t= he wrong one in or the person responsible goes on vacation and hence the backup process is = constantly at risk. Even SMB customers can no longer afford to have a DC fire or DB corr= uption or accidental critical file deletion where they can not recover. Hence, even i= f it does cost a bit more (additional fee perhaps?), imho, a SMB solution should be consid= ering these "lights-out" options. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:27:27 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Copyrightability? (was Re: VMS License Plates) Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 09/01/07 05:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >>> In article <8q6Ci.19183$Zk5.16187@newsfe23.lga>, Ron Johnson >>> writes: >>> >>>> On 08/31/07 21:13, Main, Kerry wrote: >>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] >>>>>> Sent: August 31, 2007 12:20 PM >>>>>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>>>> Subject: RE: VMS License Plates >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course there are some of us who will display a license plate >>>>>> (or other trinket) that says VMS but not one that says OpenVMS. >>>>>> >>>>>> I doubt there are any of the reverse persuasion. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose that means a chance to lower the production cost by adding >>>>>> three letters. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, something to consider about VMS vs. OpenVMS is that there are >>>>> now other vendor >>>>> products called VMS: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.networkworld.com/reviews/2002/0204rev.html >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a copyright violation if I every heard one. >>> >>> >>> How is it a _copyright_ violation? What was said or printed in the >>> article that is not "fair use" information possibly from some Cisco >>> features documentation? >> >> >> >> Not violated by NetworkWorld, but by Cisco. Certainly DEC >> copyrighted "VMS". >> >> But then... can you copyright acronyms? >> >> Of course, if HP kept VMS in computer people's minds as anything but >> a dead product, Cisco would not have used that acronym... >> > > Perhaps the OP was referring to a Trademark violation. The law gets a > little involved; there's the famous case of "nothing sucks like a VAX" > which was NOT a trademark violation because there was a vanishingly > small probability that a vacuum cleaner and a computer would be mistaken > for each other! > > In the course of my job search, I've learned that "VMS" is also "Vehicle > Management System" which is also not a Trademark violation! > Didn't Joel Snyder (author of the referenced article) used to write for the DEC Professional? He should certainly be familiar with VMS, with or with out the silent "Open", in that case. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:47:03 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Could disk shadowing stress SCSI? Message-ID: <46DE0A97.F3EC3062@spam.comcast.net> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > [snip] > If a small goat is not immediately available, one may substitute two > medium chickens! ;-) SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!! You weren't supposed to tell about me and that goat... ...not much into cluckers, either... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:40:58 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Could disk shadowing stress SCSI? Message-ID: In article <46DAFA30.3040103@gce.com>, Glenn Everhart wrote: > An old wise saying: "there are PERFECTLY GOOD TECHNICAL REASONS why you must > sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI bus every so often." Right on cue, some evidence of that concept here: "Goats sacrificed to help fix Nepalese plane" Apparently for something the size of a Boeing 757, 2 goats are required.:.) -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:30:49 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Message-ID: <20070905143049.GA93404@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> I installed fortran on VMS alpha 8.3: $ PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT FOR* ------------------------------------ ----------- --------- PRODUCT KIT TYPE STATE ------------------------------------ ----------- --------- DEC AXPVMS FORRTL V7.6-1 Full LP Installed DEC AXPVMS FORTRAN V8.0-1 Full LP Installed ------------------------------------ ----------- --------- 2 items found $ The fortran installation manual also details the installation of 64-bit tools, OpenVMS Debugger (DEBUG64) and OpenVMS Linker (LINKER64). However, it says that: If you have a version of OpenVMS later than Version 7.2, check its release notes to see if DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality is already included. I cannot find any relevant info in 8.3 release notes. Has this been included for ages? Can I check this somehow? thanks anton -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:49:31 +0300 From: "Guy Peleg" Subject: Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Message-ID: <46deb5ee$0$5685$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Anton Shterenlikht" wrote in message news:20070905143049.GA93404@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk... >I installed fortran on VMS alpha 8.3: > > $ PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT FOR* > ------------------------------------ ----------- --------- > PRODUCT KIT TYPE STATE > ------------------------------------ ----------- --------- > DEC AXPVMS FORRTL V7.6-1 Full LP Installed > DEC AXPVMS FORTRAN V8.0-1 Full LP Installed > ------------------------------------ ----------- --------- > 2 items found > $ > > The fortran installation manual also details the installation of > 64-bit tools, OpenVMS Debugger (DEBUG64) and OpenVMS Linker (LINKER64). > > However, it says that: > > If you have a version of OpenVMS later than Version 7.2, > check its release notes to see if DEBUG64 and LINKER64 > functionality is already included. > > I cannot find any relevant info in 8.3 release notes. > > Has this been included for ages? Can I check this somehow? Starting with OpenVMS V7.3, the LINKER64 functionality has been integrated into the regular linker (LINK.EXE). Guy Peleg BRUDEN-OSSG http://www.brudenossg.com > > thanks > anton > > -- > Anton Shterenlikht > Room 2.6, Queen's Building > Mech Eng Dept > Bristol University > University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK > Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 > Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:36:26 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Message-ID: <20070906153626.GA75027@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 05:49:31PM +0300, Guy Peleg wrote: > > "Anton Shterenlikht" wrote in message > > > > If you have a version of OpenVMS later than Version 7.2, > > check its release notes to see if DEBUG64 and LINKER64 > > functionality is already included. > > > > Has this been included for ages? Can I check this somehow? > > Starting with OpenVMS V7.3, the LINKER64 functionality has > been integrated into the regular linker (LINK.EXE). Guy, thanks a lot Perhaps the above sentence can be included into the FORTRAN installation manual to avoid confusion. -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:11:13 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: DELTA debugger image fix for V7.3-2 Message-ID: Does anyone have a copy of this? There was a problem with the image that was distributed with V7.3-2. The patch is not on the ITRC site. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:50:54 -0400 From: Chip Coldwell Subject: FS: VMS manuals Message-ID: I have some duplicates in my library that I'm hoping to place in a good home. I'm looking for US$10 per manual. Free domestic (US) shipping via USPS media mail. For international shipment, I'm just looking to recover the actual shipping costs. PayPal is great. The manuals are: OpenVMS Programming Concepts Manual, Vol 1 AA-RNSHA-TE for OpenVMS version 7.3 OpenVMS Programming Concepts Manual, Vol 2 AA-PV67E-TK for OpenVMS version 7.3 OpenVMS I/O User's Reference Manual AA-PV6SD-TK for OpenVMS version 7.3 OpenVMS System Manager's Manual: Essentials AA-PV5MD-TK for OpenVMS version 7.1 OpenVMS DCL Dictionary: A-M AA-PV5KE-TK for OpenVMS version 7.1 OpenVMS DCL Dictionary: N-Z AA-PV5LE-TK for OpenVMS version 7.1 All manuals are in fine shape. Contact me off-list if you are interested. Make me an offer if you think I'm asking too much. Chip -- Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell "Turn on, log in, tune out" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 22:27:00 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Hein has left the building? Message-ID: Hi, Soooo? Does the user on another node get ss$_lvbnotvalid and look to rollback the other guys transaction? Is it all crap and Hein did a runner before everyone worked out that ACID was just something you needed to take before contemplating RMS 2PCs? Cheers Richard Maher PS. RIP big guy. La Scala was for you and VMS engineering; the only difference is that you knew how to finish a performance! PPS. So you know all this then Paul, do you? "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:fbjfh5$ho6$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Hi Hein, > > Thanks for the reply. > > > It couldn't. RMS journalling simply keeps all records touched until > > commit or rollback. Safe but expensive. Much like manual locking. > > Sounds great! Transparency is mostly good. > > So COBOL programmers like Paul now need to know (I think Paul said he was > already doing this) that they have to do something like: - > > perform with test after until not hard_lock and not soft_lock > cobol i/o verb > maybe stick a lib$wait or retry_count check here (or do it globally in > the Declaratives section) > end-perform > > Speaking in terms of the Rdb Rosetta Stone, what Isolation Level does RMS > achieve for its transactions? I normally would assume the basic Read > Committed but RMS just keeps getting better and better so is Repeatable Read > obtainable? Or even Serializable, where if I've previously touched index > nodes for (all records where key(2) Surname starting with "SM") does RMS > lock out all other processes/streams from inserting/writing another "SMITH"? > > > > Does it then fire up a recovery process on another node in the cluster > if your node died? > > > > Yes, On finding an ACE on the file on subsequent file access. > > Ok, this is all sounding really sexy! I can understand that (on a single > node) the RMS Exec Mode Rundown handler will Rollback any outstanding > transactions that a process may have if/when that particular process gets > zapped. I can also understand that when faced with complete node failure a > subsequent Open of the file from another node would be able to trigger a > Rollback of the failed process' transaction. What I can't see happening is > RMS preventing other processes on other nodes (who had previously opened the > file before the dodgy node died) from seeing the "partial" updates of the > now dead process and *incorrectly* acting on their contents. > > In other words "How has RMS implemented the "freeze" lock to stop other > processes on other nodes bypassing the Isolation level that (presumably > through beautiful VMS and inner-mode code) is available with single node con > figurations? > > Hold on! Let's just go to pli$examples and see one Tom prepared earlier :-) > > Cheers Richard Maher > > "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" wrote in message > news:1188875406.236763.181130@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > > On Sep 3, 6:57 pm, "Richard Maher" > > wrote: > > > Hi Paul, > > > > > > > For example, (if you were not using manual locking) if you updated > > > stock-on-hand in a record in file_1 from 20 to 18 and then went on to do > > > other work/updates but before you committed your transaction, another > > > process subtracted 5 from the same stock-on-hand and committed its txn, > then > > > > It couldn't. RMS journalling simply keeps all records touched until > > commit or rollback. Safe but expensive. Much like manual locking. > > > > > > > you ROLLBACKed *your* txn, what's the stock-on-hand say? > > > > 20 > > > > > Does it then fire up a recovery process on another node in the cluster > if your node died? > > > > Yes, On finding an ACE on the file on subsequent file access. > > > > Hein. > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 21:37:29 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient > Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament > mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving > (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, > which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive > value. That explains it then. HP knows it has sinned, and to repent, it is willing to use VMS as sacrificial lamb to prove its loyalty to God. (Of course, in todays' context, GOD is Bill Gates). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:12:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/03/07 12:19, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1188837466.761241.106970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >> On Aug 30, 9:21 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> Koehler) wrote: >>> In article <1188473905.146346.178...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>> >>>> because God requires a sacrifice for sin >>> Says who? Surely an all powerfull god could change a little thing >>> like that. Wait a minute, that's what Jesus, is supposed to have >>> done and in standard Christian beleif Jesus is God. So you avoided >>> answering the question. >> http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00614.html >> > > Why can there be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood ? > > God is supposedly all powerful why then does he have to obey such a stupid > (presumably self-imposed) rule. I'd say that He doesn't, but that humans, with their mortal limitations, only understand "actions and consequences". But then, man was "made in the image of God", so maybe God has that limitation too. That's probably why I'm an atheist... -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:14:19 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1188837466.761241.106970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >On Aug 30, 9:21 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >Koehler) wrote: >> In article <1188473905.146346.178...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >> >> > because God requires a sacrifice for sin >> >> Says who? Surely an all powerfull god could change a little thing >> like that. Wait a minute, that's what Jesus, is supposed to have >> done and in standard Christian beleif Jesus is God. So you avoided >> answering the question. > >http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00614.html > . . . without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (NASB) Heb. 9:22 From http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews9.htm " 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive value. " David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 01:15:25 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <2K6Di.27863$Pv4.21977@newsfe19.lga> On 09/03/07 20:37, JF Mezei wrote: > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, >> ancient >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old >> Testament >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and >> almsgiving >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial >> cult, >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and >> unitive >> value. > > > > That explains it then. HP knows it has sinned, and to repent, it is > willing to use VMS as sacrificial lamb to prove its loyalty to God. > (Of course, in todays' context, GOD is Bill Gates). -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:39:36 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > > >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >> value. > > > >That explains it then. HP knows it has sinned, and to repent, it is >willing to use VMS as sacrificial lamb to prove its loyalty to God. > >(Of course, in todays' context, GOD is Bill Gates). Billzebub is not a god. He and Micro$hit are the embodiment of all that is ungodly. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:59:11 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >In article <1188837466.761241.106970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >>On Aug 30, 9:21 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >>Koehler) wrote: >>> In article <1188473905.146346.178...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>> >>> > because God requires a sacrifice for sin >>> >>> Says who? Surely an all powerfull god could change a little thing >>> like that. Wait a minute, that's what Jesus, is supposed to have >>> done and in standard Christian beleif Jesus is God. So you avoided >>> answering the question. >> >>http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00614.html >> Just to clarify my own posting which was rather terse. http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00614.html appears to be based soley on the statement . . . without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (NASB) Heb. 9:22 from the New testament Hebrews. However the Old testament does not restrict forgiveness in this manner From http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews9.htm " 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive value. " David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 08:00:15 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > " > 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient > Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament > mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving > (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, > which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive > value. > > " I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be true. What prevents God from changing it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:09:35 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1188911375.398215.27900@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > > " > > 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient > > Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament > > mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving > > (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, > > which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive > > value. > > > " > > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be > true. > > What prevents God from changing it? He did change it ... he sent His son to take your and my punishment for our sins ... once and for all ... all you have to do is acknowledge what He did and repent and accept Him in your life ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:07:21 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >> " >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >> value. >> >> " > > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be > true. > > What prevents God from changing it? > I've posted a clarification of the above since the site Boob quoted was using the argument from Hebrews in the New Testament that "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" whereas the above shows that this is not true according to the Old Testament - there are other routes to forgiveness. But as you say an all powerful God should be able to do whatever he/she/it wished. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:17:16 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46DD68EC.2010301@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >>" >>7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >>Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >>mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >>(Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >>which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >>value. >> >>" > > > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be > true. > > What prevents God from changing it? > STARE DECISIS - Lat. "to stand by that which is decided." The principal that the precedent decisions are to be followed by the courts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:54:25 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <46DD68EC.2010301@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >>>" >>>7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >>>Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >>>mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >>>(Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >>>which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >>>value. >>> >>>" >> >> >> I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web >> site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be >> true. >> >> What prevents God from changing it? >> > >STARE DECISIS - Lat. "to stand by that which is decided." The principal >that the precedent decisions are to be followed by the courts. > Unless overruled by a higher authority - eg Government passing new laws which supersede the older law. In this case God is presumably the ultimate authority and legislator. Besides which as stated in the quotation above the old testament does not agree that "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness". David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:50:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > Billzebub is not a god. He and Micro$hit are the embodiment of all that is > ungodly. To some, Satan is a god :-) And it won't be that long before Microsoft unveils its new version of Windows: "Windows 666" :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:58:18 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be > true. > > What prevents God from changing it? Same thing that should have prevented Compaq from changing the plan of record and murdering Alpha. Same thing that should have prevented HP from changing the roadmap and no longer delivering on the last VAX version, as per the plan of record promised in exchange for the sacrificial slaughter of Alpha to please the Intel gods. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 11:57:53 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5qPj9PevkKhU@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1188911375.398215.27900@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > He did change it ... he sent His son to take your and > my punishment for our sins ... once and for all ... Which is exactly the point I made last week. You didn't answer the question then and you still haven't answered the question we were discussing. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 11:58:51 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <46DD68EC.2010301@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > STARE DECISIS - Lat. "to stand by that which is decided." The principal > that the precedent decisions are to be followed by the courts. In what religion is God limited to the same capabilities as a human court of law? ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 11:59:50 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > > Same thing that should have prevented Compaq from changing the plan of > record and murdering Alpha. Same thing that should have prevented HP > from changing the roadmap and no longer delivering on the last VAX > version, as per the plan of record promised in exchange for the > sacrificial slaughter of Alpha to please the Intel gods. What? JF, are you trying to make this thread relavent? 8-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:13:28 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 10:07 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > > > > >In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > >> " > >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient > >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament > >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving > >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, > >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive > >> value. > > >> " > > > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web > > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be > > true. > > > What prevents God from changing it? > > I've posted a clarification of the above since the site Boob quoted was using > the argument from Hebrews in the New Testament that > "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" > > whereas the above shows that this is not true according to the Old Testament - > there are other routes to forgiveness. > > But as you say an all powerful God should be able to do whatever he/she/it > wished. > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - 1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:16:07 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1188926167.222752.102510@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 10:07 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > > > > >In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > >> " > >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient > >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament > >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving > >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, > >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive > >> value. > > >> " > > > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web > > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be > > true. > > > What prevents God from changing it? > > I've posted a clarification of the above since the site Boob quoted was using > the argument from Hebrews in the New Testament that > "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" > > whereas the above shows that this is not true according to the Old Testament - > there are other routes to forgiveness. > > But as you say an all powerful God should be able to do whatever he/she/it > wished. > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Malachi chapter 3 vs 6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:30:02 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >On Sep 4, 10:07 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article , koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> >In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >> >> " >> >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >> >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >> >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >> >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >> >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >> >> value. >> >> >> " >> >> > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web >> > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be >> > true. >> >> > What prevents God from changing it? >> >> I've posted a clarification of the above since the site Boob quoted was using >> the argument from Hebrews in the New Testament that >> "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" >> >> whereas the above shows that this is not true according to the Old Testament - >> there are other routes to forgiveness. >> >> But as you say an all powerful God should be able to do whatever he/she/it >> wished. >> >> David Webb >> Security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 > >" He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >he is not a man, that he should change his mind." > So we should be following everything in the old testament ? - the modifications made in the New Testament can not be valid because God can never change his mind ? So for instance Christians should all be eating only Kosher food and all men should be circumcised. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:55:18 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > >In article <46DD68EC.2010301@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> STARE DECISIS - Lat. "to stand by that which is decided." The principal >> that the precedent decisions are to be followed by the courts. > > In what religion is God limited to the same capabilities as a human > court of law? Exactly, read below! A man who died was supposed to go to Heaven, but ended up in Hell. So, God called Satan, protesting to have that man returned to Heaven where he belonged. When Satan rejected the request, God said he would go to court to get the man back, to which Satan replied, "Where are you going to get a lawyer? They are all down here!" -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:59:27 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <32hDi.38$KS3.20@newsfe12.lga> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > >In article <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >>On Sep 4, 10:07 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>> In article , koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >>> >>> >> " >>> >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >>> >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >>> >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >>> >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >>> >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >>> >> value. >>> >>> >> " >>> >>> > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web >>> > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be >>> > true. >>> >>> > What prevents God from changing it? >>> >>> I've posted a clarification of the above since the site Boob quoted was using >>> the argument from Hebrews in the New Testament that >>> "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" >>> >>> whereas the above shows that this is not true according to the Old Testament - >>> there are other routes to forgiveness. >>> >>> But as you say an all powerful God should be able to do whatever he/she/it >>> wished. >>> >>> David Webb >>> Security team leader >>> CCSS >>> Middlesex University- Hide quoted text - >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> >>1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 >> >>" He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >> >So we should be following everything in the old testament ? - the modifications >made in the New Testament can not be valid because God can never change his >mind ? >So for instance Christians should all be eating only Kosher food and all men >should be circumcised. I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:22:10 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/04/07 06:39, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , JF Mezei writes: >> >> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >>> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >>> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >>> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >>> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >>> value. >> >> >> That explains it then. HP knows it has sinned, and to repent, it is >> willing to use VMS as sacrificial lamb to prove its loyalty to God. >> >> (Of course, in todays' context, GOD is Bill Gates). > > Billzebub is not a god. He and Micro$hit are the embodiment of all that is > ungodly. Gods are whatever you worship. Jehovah, your ancestors, the Sun, television, etc, etc. *Many* people worship MSFT. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:32:16 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/04/07 08:09, ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > On Sep 4, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >>> " >>> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient >>> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament >>> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving >>> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, >>> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive >>> value. >>> " >> I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web >> site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be >> true. >> >> What prevents God from changing it? > > He did change it ... he sent His son to take your and > my punishment for our sins ... once and for all ... > > all you have to do is acknowledge what He did and > repent and accept Him in your life ... Sheesh! You don't even know fundamental Christian doctrine! This is one of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, up there with the triune God: Jesus ("the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world") shed his blood for the final expiation of our sins. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:39:26 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/04/07 12:30, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: [snip] >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> 1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 >> >> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >> > So we should be following everything in the old testament ? - the modifications > made in the New Testament can not be valid because God can never change his > mind ? > So for instance Christians should all be eating only Kosher food and all men > should be circumcised. a) - Jesus is/was supposed to be the fulfillment of the Law. Now that Jesus was the final sacrifice under the Law and expiated our sin (instead of the temporary propitiation via animal blood), we live under Grace, not Law. b) We (well, most of us) are not Jews. We are not His chosen people. Thus, we don't need to be circumcised. "Completed Jews" presumably don't have to eat Kosher food (the Law has been fulfilled), but probably still need to be marked as His people. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 15:50:38 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for > he is not a man, that he should change his mind." But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the changes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:24:43 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1188944683.389501.295990@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > > > " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for > > he is not a man, that he should change his mind." > > But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the > changes. no He did not ... that was planned all along ... God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel and other prophecies and they are happening right now before your very eyes ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:52:08 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: >On 09/04/07 12:30, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >[snip] >>>> >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> 1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 >>> >>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>> >> So we should be following everything in the old testament ? - the modifications >> made in the New Testament can not be valid because God can never change his >> mind ? >> So for instance Christians should all be eating only Kosher food and all men >> should be circumcised. > >a) - Jesus is/was supposed to be the fulfillment of the Law. Now >that Jesus was the final sacrifice under the Law and expiated our >sin (instead of the temporary propitiation via animal blood), we >live under Grace, not Law. > Sorry Ron replacing Law with Grace sounds like God changing the rules of the game ie he changed his mind in contradition to Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 which Boob quoted. >b) We (well, most of us) are not Jews. We are not His chosen >people. Thus, we don't need to be circumcised. "Completed Jews" >presumably don't have to eat Kosher food (the Law has been >fulfilled), but probably still need to be marked as His people. Unlike modern Judaism, ancient Judaism was a missionary faith and attracted lots of converts. It's been estimated that upto 10% of the people of the Roman Empire in the early second century were Jewish - with upto 40% being Jewish in some urban centres such as Alexandria. Judaism as a missionary faith in the Roman empire suffered a gigantic setback under Constantine and successive emperors from which it never really recovered. see http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-romanlaw.html Though, after the fall of the Empire, mass conversions to Judaism restarted to some extent and were still going up into the 8th and 9th Centuries such as the conversion of the Khazars. From another perspective given that there were so many Jews in the Roman Empire who converted to Christianity and all those who converted to Christianity in the Middle ages it is pretty close to 100% certain that if you are of European descent you have at least one Jewish ancestor in the last two thousand years. Note. The most recent common ancestor of all Western Europeans is estimated to have lived only 1000 years ago. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University > >-- >Ron Johnson, Jr. >Jefferson LA USA > >Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:44:08 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1188953048.290434.30000@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 1:59 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > >In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > >>On Sep 4, 10:07 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >>> In article , koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > >>> >In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > >>> >> " > >>> >> 7 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient > >>> >> Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament > >>> >> mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving > >>> >> (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, > >>> >> which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive > >>> >> value. > > >>> >> " > > >>> > I'm not really in favor of getting my religious teaching from a web > >>> > site, but suppose for rhetorical purposes we took the above to be > >>> > true. > > >>> > What prevents God from changing it? > > >>> I've posted a clarification of the above since the site Boob quoted was using > >>> the argument from Hebrews in the New Testament that > >>> "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" > > >>> whereas the above shows that this is not true according to the Old Testament - > >>> there are other routes to forgiveness. > > >>> But as you say an all powerful God should be able to do whatever he/she/it > >>> wished. > > >>> David Webb > >>> Security team leader > >>> CCSS > >>> Middlesex University- Hide quoted text - > > >>> - Show quoted text - > > >>1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 > > >>" He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for > >>he is not a man, that he should change his mind." > > >So we should be following everything in the old testament ? - the modifications > >made in the New Testament can not be valid because God can never change his > >mind ? > >So for instance Christians should all be eating only Kosher food and all men > >should be circumcised. > > I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you > don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting remark? No one is asking anything of you. Or are you just trying to push my buttons? > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:38:07 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <3MnDi.4070$aS.1875@newsfe12.lga> In article <1188953048.290434.30000@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: {...snip...} >> I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you >> don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. > >Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting >remark? No one is asking anything of you. I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. >Or are you just trying to push my buttons? How did I push your buttons? I responded to David Webb's post. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:38:49 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/04/07 17:52, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> On 09/04/07 12:30, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>> In article <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >> [snip] >>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>> 1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 >>>> >>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>>> >>> So we should be following everything in the old testament ? - the modifications >>> made in the New Testament can not be valid because God can never change his >>> mind ? >>> So for instance Christians should all be eating only Kosher food and all men >>> should be circumcised. >> a) - Jesus is/was supposed to be the fulfillment of the Law. Now >> that Jesus was the final sacrifice under the Law and expiated our >> sin (instead of the temporary propitiation via animal blood), we >> live under Grace, not Law. >> > Sorry Ron replacing Law with Grace sounds like God changing the rules of the > game ie he changed his mind in contradition to Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 which > Boob quoted. Unless that was part of The Plan (to bring us closer to how He lived with Adam) from the beginning. But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical exercise for me. >> b) We (well, most of us) are not Jews. We are not His chosen >> people. Thus, we don't need to be circumcised. "Completed Jews" >> presumably don't have to eat Kosher food (the Law has been >> fulfilled), but probably still need to be marked as His people. > > Unlike modern Judaism, ancient Judaism was a missionary faith and attracted lots > of converts. > It's been estimated that upto 10% of the people of the Roman Empire in the > early second century were Jewish - with upto 40% being Jewish in some urban > centres such as Alexandria. Judaism as a missionary faith in the Roman empire > suffered a gigantic setback under Constantine and successive emperors from > which it never really recovered. > see http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-romanlaw.html > > Though, after the fall of the Empire, mass conversions to Judaism restarted to > some extent and were still going up into the 8th and 9th Centuries such as > the conversion of the Khazars. > > From another perspective given that there were so many Jews in the Roman > Empire who converted to Christianity and all those who converted to > Christianity in the Middle ages it is pretty close to 100% certain that if you > are of European descent you have at least one Jewish ancestor in the last two > thousand years. Note. The most recent common ancestor of all Western Europeans > is estimated to have lived only 1000 years ago. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:59:52 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <6d7a8$46de0d94$cef8887a$15240@TEKSAVVY.COM> Re: Old Testament and all the various rituals and "rules" in it. When you look at the old religions, they are essentially snapshots of culture in one area of the planet at one particular time. Some religious leader(s) write down as a part of their new religion various practices which, at the time, are seen as good practices for health, hygiene etc and are readily accepted by the population (which likely already has been following those practices for some time). The Old Testament rules are, in hindsight, quite illuminating because they deal with reducing incidence of disease due to lack of water and refrigeration. The snip to a man's organ, as well as prohibition of sodomy, cheating (multiple mates), bestiality etc all are designed to reduce spread of any venerial diseases. Africa is being decimated by Aids exactly because of lack of those rules. The old testament's rules on how to prepare food have nothing to do with "religion", but everything to do with hygiene/health and reducing the risk of disease from eating bad food. When Christianity wanted to move out of middle east and acquire Roman converts, it learned that it needed to adapt to the Roman culture, and as a result, did away with a lot of the restrictions which were of value in the middle east (where water is sparse) but which were not necessary in Italy due to better water availability etc. How did they know that ? Because Romans knew what needed to be done to be healthy in their living conditions (which were different from those in middle east). And because the roman empire turned out to be more or less the western world, the values of christianity were more or less compatible with the lifestyle of the people in western europe and later north america. Howeer, many just blindly followed the catholic rule of not eating meat on fridays. But this was a roman/italian thing to help struggling italian fisherman, but when translated to other ccountries, it had very little meaning. Likewise, the Coran says that women should not dress provocatively. In the middle east, many were already wearing a veil to protect themselves from the sun (and this is still common with men as well). When translated to other countries though, some interpretations equated veil with "non provocative clothing" and decided it was to be the dress code for women even though a veil would be "out of place" in that new region. (instead of going back to the Coran and re-evaluating the meaning of the words and how to best implement it in this new region. When Islam missionaries went to Fiji, they adapted Islam to the Fijian way of life and since the Fijians were already conservative with clothing, it was a no brainer to just keep them that way. Since they already practiced the "manly snip", it wasn't a problem to make that pre-existing cultural custom now part of the religion. (ironically, Christian missionaries did the same, pointing to old testament to tell the new christian converts that christinaity also supports that practice). The big problem is that when you take a religion that had been custom made for say the middle east, and transpose it litterally without much adaptation to a different part of the planet. This is where you get clashes because of such different lifestyles happen. Islam in the south pacific adapted to the local culture. But Islam from middle east is being exported "litterally" without enough adaptation and this is causing a lot of irritation. Remember that religions provide(d) cultural leadership which was extremely strong. Certain islamic sects are still very strong leaders over their population (the taliban was one, and Iran is also still very influencial on how its citizens live). Judaism has strong leadership in Israel, but outside of Israel, many Jews no longer take all the rituals so litterally. But a "strong" muslim mosque in england still has a lot of pull over its members and can still tell them to embody a middle-eastern way of life/culture instead of adapting Islam to British culture which other mosques have no problem with. Once you understand why pork was prohibited under Judaism, you realise that the original reason is no longer valid and eating pork today wouldn't really break the spirit of the old testament whose goal was to ensure health and avoid foods which, at that time, were unhygienic to eat. Religions which refuse to adapt to the new environments are slated to become extinct. The catholic religion's refusal to condone condoms (always wanted to use those 2 words in the same sentence :-) as well as its refusal to let priests mary or have female priests has resulted in the catholic religion losing leadership over its members. It has become out of touch with reality and current values. Another very important aspect is that religions used to be the sole providers of education. So all of the cultural issues/rituals and food preparation were provided by the religious organisations, so it made sense to make those part of the religion. But with a lot of the education now provided outside of religion, it doesn't really make sense for religions to continue to have such rules. For instance, there is good education available on preparation of foods to ensure it does not cause disease, and governments have secular authorities to provide this education, and also visit restaurants to ensure adherance to government hygiene rules. And because those rules have evolved significantly, the original biblical rules are no longer adequate (they lack many items, yet have many redundant items still in them). A computer analogy would be if volume shadowing 1.0 was first documented in the IO users manual, but a while later volume shadowing 3.0 got its own book, but the documentation folks left the 1.0 stuff in the IO Users Manual. The doc in the IO Users Manual is outdated but some people might still swear by it. And to Mr VAXman... if you're going to admit you love every "inch" of your member, you should at the very least do it in the international measures since this forum is international :-) :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:08:30 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <12d1d$46de0f9f$cef8887a$15507@TEKSAVVY.COM> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to > feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. Do you have any piercings in visible or not so visible places by any chance ? :-) :-) :-) ;-) Would you consider a female having cosmetic surgery to enhance her breasts (such as removing a bit of excess skin so they sag less) or a face lift to be a "mutilation" ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:16:11 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1188962171.041468.149570@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 10:08 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to > feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. I agree... > > Do you have any piercings in visible or not so visible places by any > chance ? :-) :-) :-) ;-) > NO NO NO ! > Would you consider a female having cosmetic surgery to enhance her > breasts (such as removing a bit of excess skin so they sag less) or a > face lift to be a "mutilation" ? No. And it is the opposite of barbaric + heathen :-) NSR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:27:11 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/04/07 21:08, JF Mezei wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen >> to feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body >> mutilation. > > Do you have any piercings in visible or not so visible places by any > chance ? :-) :-) :-) ;-) > > > Would you consider a female having cosmetic surgery to enhance her > breasts (such as removing a bit of excess skin so they sag less) or a > face lift to be a "mutilation" ? I'm not sure if "barbaric" is the word, but Pam Anderson and Dolly Parton are pretty scary looking. And aging Barbi Benton's eyes look *really* scary. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:10:46 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <12d1d$46de0f9f$cef8887a$15507@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to >> feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. > >Do you have any piercings in visible or not so visible places by any >chance ? :-) :-) :-) ;-) No I do not. I don't wear jewelry either save of a very simple wedding band. I wear a medical alert bracelet out of necessity. The only "piercings" my body experienced were 24 12-gauge titanium steel rods through my leg to hold bone fragments in place for 2 years. >Would you consider a female having cosmetic surgery to enhance her >breasts (such as removing a bit of excess skin so they sag less) or a >face lift to be a "mutilation" ? Vanity! THere's a Radiohead song "Fake Plastic Trees" with the lyric: He used to do surgery, For girls in the eighties, But gravity always wins. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 11:52:51 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5k7jkjF2e45jU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural > omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical > exercise for me. > Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more likely than their existence? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 07:29:00 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <2wOl0n0msUrh@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <12d1d$46de0f9f$cef8887a$15507@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > Would you consider a female having cosmetic surgery to enhance her > breasts (such as removing a bit of excess skin so they sag less) or a > face lift to be a "mutilation" ? Correcting severe deformities or damage due to disease or accident is the kind of cosmetic surgery I can agree with. Stuffing silicon bags under the skin to pursue mythical standards that might be valid in Hollywood I find repulsive. There's nothing worse in cosmetic surgery than too see a lovely young woman stuff her chest to excess. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:08:54 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1188944683.389501.295990@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >Koehler) wrote: >> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >> >> > " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >> > he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >> >> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the >> changes. > >no He did not ... that was planned all along ... > >God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel >and other prophecies and they are happening right >now before your very eyes ... > If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. But then all God's actions must also be predetermined which means he has no free-will and hence is not omnipotent. (One way out of this impasse might be to suppose that God could see all possible futures and could then choose between them by choosing or not choosing to act at certain points in History. But then surely there must be a "best" future for God's plans hence why would he do anything except instigate that future which being able to see all possible futures he would have seen from the beginning. Hence once again God's actions would be predetermined by his desire for the best possible outcome and hence he would again have no free-will.) David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:07:26 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: >> But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural >> omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical >> exercise for me. >> > > Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more > likely than their existence? Occam's Razor. An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 14:15:52 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5k7s0oF2g7ikU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >>> But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural >>> omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical >>> exercise for me. >>> >> >> Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more >> likely than their existence? > > Occam's Razor. > > An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" > against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the > Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And > probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. But they are just today's notions. There are a lot of people who honestly believe that we will have Warp Drive and al the other stuff that is science foction today just like today we have what was just science fiction yesterday. So you really don't know those are laws, just today's theories. And, if there is such a being, they're His laws and he can do with them as He pleases. Nope, no conflict. Science and religion only ever conflict when science decides it wants to be God itself. Or when certain whackos decide to interpret religion in a way that conflicts. Reality (as usual) is quite different. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:32:19 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32966@newsfe16.lga> On 09/05/07 08:08, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1188944683.389501.295990@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> Koehler) wrote: >>> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>> >>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the >>> changes. >> no He did not ... that was planned all along ... >> >> God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel >> and other prophecies and they are happening right >> now before your very eyes ... >> > If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then > everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. Not true. "Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. Knowing what will happen in the future does not imply that "you" *planned* for it to happen that way. > But then all God's actions must also be predetermined which means he has no > free-will and hence is not omnipotent. > (One way out of this impasse might be to suppose that God could see all > possible futures and could then choose between them by choosing or not choosing > to act at certain points in History. But then surely there must be a "best" > future for God's plans hence why would he do anything except instigate that > future which being able to see all possible futures he would have seen from the > beginning. Hence once again God's actions would be predetermined by his desire > for the best possible outcome and hence he would again have no free-will.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 16:05:35 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5k82efF2i3gvU1@mid.individual.net> In article <37ADi.246903$dA7.128324@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > > Science can *not* be God, since religion requires faith, but science > is all and only about evidence and trying to find patterns (which we > call Laws) that fit/describe the evidence. Thank you for that last part. I needed a good laugh today and this is definitely a knee-slapper. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 13:00:39 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > There's nothing worse in cosmetic surgery than too see a lovely young > woman stuff her chest to excess. Not all cosmetic surgery involves inserting a bag of silicone (or salt water or whatever they use these days) in breasts. A lot of cosmetic surgery simply removes excess skin to improve a person's look. (OK, there are excesses there too (Joan Rivers as an example). But just because there are excesses doesn't mean that all cosmetic surgery is wrong. And if some cosmetic surgery is acceptable on women, then logically, one should also accept that some cosmetic surgery is acceptable on men too. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 17:42:21 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5k883tF2b7jbU1@mid.individual.net> In article , JF Mezei writes: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" >> against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the >> Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). > > > Has it ever occured to you that we are essentially in a large > simulation, and the "omnipotent" god is actually the programmer who > setup the simulation and created all the laws of physics, the design of > atoms, magnetic forces etc ? > > Once implemented, he simply needs to let the simulation run to see what > comes out of it. He may have gotten bored and added some "life" on a > planet and maybe even inserted a "Jesus" at one point in time. But it > doesn't mean that he knows about everything that is happening in his > simulation, just like you don't know about precice values in variables > in a program that is running at any specific point in time. (unless you > use debugger and take a close look at it). > > From our point of view, there would be a "god" (the one that created > this virtual universe in which we live in), but it doesn't mean that he > is omnipotent. For all we know, it is some bored but very bright teenage > geek playing around in a different dimension/universe and created us > as a game. "It's June 15, and Guy Burkhart wakes up screaming......." bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:12:40 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189033960.111680.170140@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 9:38 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1188953048.290434.30...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > {...snip...} > > >> I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you > >> don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. > > >Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting > >remark? No one is asking anything of you. > > I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to > feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. The depth of your ignorance on this matter is beyond astonishing. I suggest a lengthy Google session. I recall you scolded me for not using Google to look up your sig. Funny, the same people who tell me to use Google when I ask a question are invariably the same people who ask *me* questions for which they themselves could use Google. Funny. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:58:08 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189040288.171876.303080@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 5, 7:52 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: > > > > > But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural > > omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical > > exercise for me. > > Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more > likely than their existence? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Consider the possibility of a teapot in orbit around the Sun between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter and ask the same question. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:09:46 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189040986.731316.175580@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 5, 10:15 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: > > > On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article , > >> Ron Johnson writes: > >>> But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural > >>> omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical > >>> exercise for me. > > >> Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more > >> likely than their existence? > > > Occam's Razor. > > > An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" > > against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the > > Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And > > probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. > > But they are just today's notions. There are a lot of people who Hmmm. All of our technology is based on these notions, so there must be something very right about them. While there are occasional surprises (as in the fact that the discovery that weak force violates conservation of parity), certain conservation laws work extremely well. The best are probably the laws of thermodynamics. If you could find a way around them, you could become wealthier than BG. ... Good luck. The reality of atoms. That's fairly well established, I believe. > honestly believe that we will have Warp Drive and al the other stuff > that is science foction today just like today we have what was just > science fiction yesterday. So you really don't know those are laws, I wouldn't bet much on ever going faster than light. Based on what we know today, many of these wild sci-fi things are really sci-fantasy. "Well, what about what we don't know?", you say. Well, I don't see any point in basing stuff on what we don't know!!! "Let's see, based on what I don't know..." -- you get the idea. > just today's theories. And, if there is such a being, they're His I'd not suggest fitting wings to your arms and jumping off a cliff -- there's the, uh, "law" of gravity in play here. > laws and he can do with them as He pleases. Nope, no conflict. "He" doesn't seem to be doing much with them at all. > Science and religion only ever conflict when science decides it wants > to be God itself. Or when certain whackos decide to interpret religion Example, please? > in a way that conflicts. Reality (as usual) is quite different. What? As in interpreting a 6000-year-old world as being 6000 years old? Yeah, that's wacko all right! AEF > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:12:33 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189041153.907079.21010@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 5, 3:32 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > >>In article , > >> Ron Johnson writes: > > >>>But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural > >>>omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical > >>>exercise for me. > > >>Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more > >>likely than their existence? > > > Occam's Razor. > > > An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" > > against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the > > Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And > > probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. > > I think there's a law of "Conservation of Reality"! In quantum mechanics there is what is called conservation of probability. This basically says that the probabilities of all the places a particle might be found must add up to 1, i.e., the particle must be somewhere! There is even an differential equation for this which relates the probability density with the (probability) flux. AEF AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:48:51 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <70JDi.6455$pe7.3158@newsfe12.lga> In article <1189033960.111680.170140@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >On Sep 4, 9:38 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <1188953048.290434.30...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> {...snip...} >> >> >> I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you >> >> don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. >> >> >Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting >> >remark? No one is asking anything of you. >> >> I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to >> feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. > >The depth of your ignorance on this matter is beyond astonishing. Precisely what would you have me google? I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 03:03:48 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <52a3a$46dfa659$cef8887a$2243@TEKSAVVY.COM> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call > me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. You've expressed strong feelings against that cosmetic operation. And it is your right. And there is reason to debate whether any cosmetic unnecessary operation should be done by parents on a child before age of consent. But this does not mean that the operation itself is "barbaric" or "mutilation". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:40:22 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 02:03, JF Mezei wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you >> call me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. > > You've expressed strong feelings against that cosmetic operation. And it > is your right. And there is reason to debate whether any cosmetic > unnecessary operation should be done by parents on a child before age of > consent. But this does not mean that the operation itself is "barbaric" > or "mutilation". Snipping off a flap of skin surely is "mutilation". The main definition of "mutilation" is: 1. To cut off or remove a limb or essential part of; to maim; to cripple; to disfigure; to hack; as, to mutilate the body, a statue, etc. Getting a bad rhytidectomy, blepharoplasty, or augmenting mammaplasty (Google is your friend!) or any of a number of other facial augmentations can definitely make you look really weird (thus "disfigured") can also be considered "mutilation". On the whole, though, cosmetic surgery can't be "legally" defined as "mutilation". Regarding barbarity: 2. Of or pertaining to, or resembling, an uncivilized person or people; barbarous; barbarian; destitute of refinement. "Wild, barbaric music." --Sir W. Scott. [1913 Webster] Yes, I would agree that *most* (but not all) women going in for rhytidectomies, blepharoplasties, or augmenting mammaplasties, buttock, chin and lip augmentations, AND the men who enjoy such women, definitely *are* destitute of refinement. But that's just my thoughts. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:00:30 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <52a3a$46dfa659$cef8887a$2243@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call >> me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. > >You've expressed strong feelings against that cosmetic operation. And it >is your right. And there is reason to debate whether any cosmetic >unnecessary operation should be done by parents on a child before age of >consent. But this does not mean that the operation itself is "barbaric" >or "mutilation". The World Health Organization and Amnesty Internation would disagree. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk7yc7vAIZY However, there is no need to remove any non-diseased functioning part of the human body for any reason -- especially before the person whose part it is has a say in it. Besides, what, if anything, is "cosmetic" about it? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:14:28 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > >On 09/06/07 02:03, JF Mezei wrote: >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you >>> call me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. >> >> You've expressed strong feelings against that cosmetic operation. And it >> is your right. And there is reason to debate whether any cosmetic >> unnecessary operation should be done by parents on a child before age of >> consent. But this does not mean that the operation itself is "barbaric" >> or "mutilation". > >Snipping off a flap of skin surely is "mutilation". > >The main definition of "mutilation" is: > 1. To cut off or remove a limb or essential part of; to maim; > to cripple; to disfigure; to hack; as, to mutilate the > body, a statue, etc. Case closed! ;) >Getting a bad rhytidectomy, blepharoplasty, or augmenting >mammaplasty (Google is your friend!) or any of a number of other >facial augmentations can definitely make you look really weird (thus >"disfigured") can also be considered "mutilation". In '78 I was struck by a car running a stop sign. I was on motorcycle on the through street at the time. In addition to broken bones (34) and a crushed leg, I has some severe facial lacerations (a hole beneath my chin into my mouth and my nose half severed). The "plastic" surgeon was able to restore the nose with nary a scar visible. The hole below my chin was sealed but left a nasty scar. I just alow the the beard to cover it. My crushed leg is severely scarred and crocked but I wouldn't be so vain to have it cosmetically altered. It is my constant reminder of the dangers of the highway and uninsured 'invisible pedetrians' behind the wheel of an automobile. Anyway, in such circumstances, plastic surgery is a godsend. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 11:44:45 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5ka7hdF2pb4pU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1189040986.731316.175580@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Sep 5, 10:15 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >> >> > On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> In article , >> >> Ron Johnson writes: >> >>> But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural >> >>> omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical >> >>> exercise for me. >> >> >> Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more >> >> likely than their existence? >> >> > Occam's Razor. >> >> > An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" >> > against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the >> > Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And >> > probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. >> >> But they are just today's notions. There are a lot of people who > > Hmmm. All of our technology is based on these notions, so there must > be something very right about them. Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four elements? > > While there are occasional surprises (as in the fact that the > discovery that weak force violates conservation of parity), certain > conservation laws work extremely well. The best are probably the laws > of thermodynamics. If you could find a way around them, you could > become wealthier than BG. ... Good luck. > > The reality of atoms. That's fairly well established, I believe. By today's science. The understanding of even atoms might be different in 1000 years. > >> honestly believe that we will have Warp Drive and al the other stuff >> that is science foction today just like today we have what was just >> science fiction yesterday. So you really don't know those are laws, > > I wouldn't bet much on ever going faster than light. > > Based on what we know today, many of these wild sci-fi things are > really sci-fantasy. "Well, what about what we don't know?", you say. > Well, I don't see any point in basing stuff on what we don't know!!! > "Let's see, based on what I don't know..." -- you get the idea. So, you are supporting my argument. Someone else has already pointed out that many reputable scientists today think it will be a possibility. But our current understanding of science says no. > >> just today's theories. And, if there is such a being, they're His > > I'd not suggest fitting wings to your arms and jumping off a cliff -- > there's the, uh, "law" of gravity in play here. Which is relevant how? Man defeated gravity's hold a long, long time ago. Today, we tempt gravity just for fun and excitement. > >> laws and he can do with them as He pleases. Nope, no conflict. > > "He" doesn't seem to be doing much with them at all. What did you want Him to do? Perform a personal miracle for you? The age of miracles is long past. > >> Science and religion only ever conflict when science decides it wants >> to be God itself. Or when certain whackos decide to interpret religion > > Example, please? You gave one of the perfect one's below, what more do you want? > >> in a way that conflicts. Reality (as usual) is quite different. > > What? As in interpreting a 6000-year-old world as being 6000 years > old? Yeah, that's wacko all right! There is nowhere in the bible where there is a timetable given for the time period from creation to Adam and Eve being evicted from their luxury condo. And, pretty much every other conflict can be as easily resolved unless one just wants the conflict to be there. Trust me, there are just as many conflicts between science and history which science chooses to merely sweep under tha table because they don't have an explanation. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 11:46:31 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5ka7knF2pb4pU2@mid.individual.net> In article <1189041153.907079.21010@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Sep 5, 3:32 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> > On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >>In article , >> >> Ron Johnson writes: >> >> >>>But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural >> >>>omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical >> >>>exercise for me. >> >> >>Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more >> >>likely than their existence? >> >> > Occam's Razor. >> >> > An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" >> > against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the >> > Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And >> > probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. >> >> I think there's a law of "Conservation of Reality"! > > In quantum mechanics there is what is called conservation of > probability. This basically says that the probabilities of all the > places a particle might be found must add up to 1, i.e., the particle > must be somewhere! There is even an differential equation for this > which relates the probability density with the (probability) flux. > Boy it must have taken a whole bunch of science to come up with the idea that soemthing has got to be somewhere. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 07:35:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <5ka7hdF2pb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have > and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or > have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four > elements? > Those four elements were closer to a religion than a science. They made almost no testable predictions and failed blatantly under a great many tests. Science is not "I guess" and popularity, or "I have a degree and I say so". It is testable predictions. The kind folks get Nobel prises for if they find one repeatable sample of test failure. Yes I know some people will use the word "science" with things that are not testable predictions. If you have to call it science, then it isn't. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:27:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 06:00, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <52a3a$46dfa659$cef8887a$2243@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: >> >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call >>> me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. >> You've expressed strong feelings against that cosmetic operation. And it >> is your right. And there is reason to debate whether any cosmetic >> unnecessary operation should be done by parents on a child before age of >> consent. But this does not mean that the operation itself is "barbaric" >> or "mutilation". > > The World Health Organization and Amnesty Internation would disagree. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk7yc7vAIZY > > However, there is no need to remove any non-diseased functioning part > of the human body for any reason -- especially before the person whose > part it is has a say in it. Besides, what, if anything, is "cosmetic" > about it? Cosmetic is a subset of plastic surgery. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 12:51:50 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5kabf6F2j238U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 09/06/07 06:44, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <1189040986.731316.175580@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >>> On Sep 5, 10:15 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>>> In article , >>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>> >>>>> On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>> In article , >>>>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>>>>> But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural >>>>>>> omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical >>>>>>> exercise for me. >>>>>> Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more >>>>>> likely than their existence? >>>>> Occam's Razor. >>>>> An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" >>>>> against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the >>>>> Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And >>>>> probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. >>>> But they are just today's notions. There are a lot of people who >>> Hmmm. All of our technology is based on these notions, so there must >>> be something very right about them. >> >> Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have >> and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. > > But that's what science "does". I agree, but someone else said the above were absolutes. > >> Or >> have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four >> elements? > > And there was a whole lot of guesswork unsupported by any (or only > the most superficial) observation whatsoever. But it was all supported by "the scientific method" of the time. You say they guessed and didn't support it, but they thought they did, based on the knowledge and abilities of their time. Hindsight is always 20-20. > > Kinda like in the social "sciences". Social "science" is much more about engineering than science. > >>> While there are occasional surprises (as in the fact that the >>> discovery that weak force violates conservation of parity), certain >>> conservation laws work extremely well. The best are probably the laws >>> of thermodynamics. If you could find a way around them, you could >>> become wealthier than BG. ... Good luck. >>> >>> The reality of atoms. That's fairly well established, I believe. >> >> By today's science. The understanding of even atoms might be >> different in 1000 years. > > Maybe a deeper understanding, but "protons, neutrons and electrons" > as the building blocks of the macro world Just Works. As did "earth, wind, fire and water" 2000 years ago. But even then some upstart was positing atomic structure, which, by the way, could not be directly observed but could be infered. (Titus Lucretius Carus, De Rerum Natura, c. 99 - c. 55 BCE) > >>>> honestly believe that we will have Warp Drive and al the other stuff >>>> that is science foction today just like today we have what was just >>>> science fiction yesterday. So you really don't know those are laws, >>> I wouldn't bet much on ever going faster than light. >>> >>> Based on what we know today, many of these wild sci-fi things are >>> really sci-fantasy. "Well, what about what we don't know?", you say. >>> Well, I don't see any point in basing stuff on what we don't know!!! >>> "Let's see, based on what I don't know..." -- you get the idea. >> >> So, you are supporting my argument. Someone else has already >> pointed out that many reputable scientists today think it will >> be a possibility. But our current understanding of science >> says no. > > Actually, they says "yes, we *do* know it might work". We just > don't know how to implement it. > Just look at this thread. We now have both "yes it can" and "no it can't". Ah, the wonders of science. >>>> just today's theories. And, if there is such a being, they're His >>> I'd not suggest fitting wings to your arms and jumping off a cliff -- >>> there's the, uh, "law" of gravity in play here. >> >> Which is relevant how? Man defeated gravity's hold a long, long time >> ago. Today, we tempt gravity just for fun and excitement. >> >>>> laws and he can do with them as He pleases. Nope, no conflict. >>> "He" doesn't seem to be doing much with them at all. >> >> What did you want Him to do? Perform a personal miracle for >> you? The age of miracles is long past. > > Why? Don't know, but the next time He talks to me I'll ask Him. :-) Actually, I am doing research right now on the basis for supposed apparitions in modern times and all the evidence seems to point to social phenomena and not miracles. > >>>> Science and religion only ever conflict when science decides it wants >>>> to be God itself. Or when certain whackos decide to interpret religion >>> Example, please? >> >> You gave one of the perfect one's below, what more do you want? >> >>>> in a way that conflicts. Reality (as usual) is quite different. >>> What? As in interpreting a 6000-year-old world as being 6000 years >>> old? Yeah, that's wacko all right! >> >> There is nowhere in the bible where there is a timetable given for >> the time period from creation to Adam and Eve being evicted from >> their luxury condo. And, pretty much every other conflict can be >> as easily resolved unless one just wants the conflict to be there. >> Trust me, there are just as many conflicts between science and history >> which science chooses to merely sweep under tha table because they don't >> have an explanation. > > Pedantic, but important: "Science" doesn't sweep it under the rug, > *humans* sweep it under the rug. And what is "science" other than the result of the actions of humans? I overhear students everyday talking about faking lab results in order to "get the result the teacher wanted". Do you really think that after developing this behavior during their training they are going to miraculously adopt the true scientific method when they leave here? Considering how many cases of faked results I read about everyday, I think the answer to that one is rather obvious. Always remember, the most important result of any scientific exploration, experiment or research is to keep the grant money coming. The size of the grant is determined by the result, not the opposite. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 12:55:45 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5kabmgF2j238U2@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 09/06/07 06:46, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <1189041153.907079.21010@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >>> On Sep 5, 3:32 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>> wrote: >>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>> On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>> In article , >>>>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>>>>> But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural >>>>>>> omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical >>>>>>> exercise for me. >>>>>> Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more >>>>>> likely than their existence? >>>>> Occam's Razor. >>>>> An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" >>>>> against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the >>>>> Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And >>>>> probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. >>>> I think there's a law of "Conservation of Reality"! >>> In quantum mechanics there is what is called conservation of >>> probability. This basically says that the probabilities of all the >>> places a particle might be found must add up to 1, i.e., the particle >>> must be somewhere! There is even an differential equation for this >>> which relates the probability density with the (probability) flux. >>> >> >> Boy it must have taken a whole bunch of science to come up with the >> idea that soemthing has got to be somewhere. :-) > > Not science, but thinking and mathematics. Yeah, well, most three year olds could have determined that. > > There are a *lot* of people who still believe in magic (I include > Christian miracles in that category). There is no such thing as "magic". Everything, including miracles, has an explanation. Just because you can't observe it, repeat it or explain it doesn't mean it didn't really happen. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 13:06:22 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5kacaeF2j238U3@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5ka7hdF2pb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have >> and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or >> have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four >> elements? >> > > Those four elements were closer to a religion than a science. They > made almost no testable predictions and failed blatantly under a > great many tests. They were the science of the times. > > Science is not "I guess" and popularity, or "I have a degree and I > say so". It is testable predictions. The kind folks get Nobel > prises for if they find one repeatable sample of test failure. So it is today, thus my reason for saying that hindsight is always 20-20. People today are so good at judging the past based on things we have only recently learned. > > Yes I know some people will use the word "science" with things that > are not testable predictions. If you have to call it science, then > it isn't. Even the definitions of words have changed over time. What we call science today they called magic. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:37:26 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46E00296.2010201@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <5ka7hdF2pb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >>Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have >>and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or >>have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four >>elements? >> > > > Those four elements were closer to a religion than a science. They > made almost no testable predictions and failed blatantly under a > great many tests. > We STILL recognize those four elements. We now call them the four states of matter; solid, liquid, gas, and plasma! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:44:50 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message news:46E00296.2010201@comcast.net... > We STILL recognize those four elements. We now call them the four states of matter; > solid, liquid, gas, and plasma! Only loosely: a couple more states have been added more recently Bose-Einstein condensates and, erm Alaska. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:41:29 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 08:06, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <5ka7hdF2pb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have >>> and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or >>> have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four >>> elements? >>> >> Those four elements were closer to a religion than a science. They >> made almost no testable predictions and failed blatantly under a >> great many tests. > > They were the science of the times. No. They had /natural philosophy/. And engineering. Which all went away after the Roman Empire fell and didn't reappear until alchemy attained a critical mass of observed knowledge. >> Science is not "I guess" and popularity, or "I have a degree and I >> say so". It is testable predictions. The kind folks get Nobel >> prises for if they find one repeatable sample of test failure. > > So it is today, thus my reason for saying that hindsight is always > 20-20. People today are so good at judging the past based on things > we have only recently learned. > >> Yes I know some people will use the word "science" with things that >> are not testable predictions. If you have to call it science, then >> it isn't. > > Even the definitions of words have changed over time. What we call > science today they called magic. No. What we call *technology* they called magic. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:58:32 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46E01598.7000001@comcast.net> Richard Brodie wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message > news:46E00296.2010201@comcast.net... > > >>We STILL recognize those four elements. We now call them the four states of matter; >>solid, liquid, gas, and plasma! > > > Only loosely: a couple more states have been added more recently > Bose-Einstein condensates and, erm Alaska. > > I thought Alaska was a state of mind! ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 14:59:24 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5kaiubF2qb6oU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 09/06/07 07:51, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >>> On 09/06/07 06:44, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article <1189040986.731316.175580@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >>>> AEF writes: >>>>> On Sep 5, 10:15 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>>>>> In article , >>>>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 09/05/07 06:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>>>> In article , >>>>>>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>>>>>>> But since it's *highly* unlikely that supernatural >>>>>>>>> omnipotent/omniscient beings exist, this is all a theoretical >>>>>>>>> exercise for me. >>>>>>>> Just out of curiosity, what makes their non-existence any more >>>>>>>> likely than their existence? >>>>>>> Occam's Razor. >>>>>>> An omnipotent supernatural being that goes around "doing things" >>>>>>> against the understood laws of nature would cause havoc with the >>>>>>> Laws of the Conservation of {Matter, Energy and Momentum). And >>>>>>> probably a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment. >>>>>> But they are just today's notions. There are a lot of people who >>>>> Hmmm. All of our technology is based on these notions, so there must >>>>> be something very right about them. >>>> Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have >>>> and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. >>> But that's what science "does". >> >> I agree, but someone else said the above were absolutes. > > They are wrong and I am right. ;) And so it goes with all science. And you wonder why ordinary people might question something like Global Warming? > >>>> Or >>>> have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four >>>> elements? >>> And there was a whole lot of guesswork unsupported by any (or only >>> the most superficial) observation whatsoever. >> >> But it was all supported by "the scientific method" of the time. >> You say they guessed and didn't support it, but they thought they >> did, based on the knowledge and abilities of their time. Hindsight >> is always 20-20. > > And I'd say that they didn't have Science. Again, like I said, it's easy to do that when you look at the the 5th century with 21st century eyes. > >>> Kinda like in the social "sciences". >> >> Social "science" is much more about engineering than science. > > Engineering or pie-in-the-sky New Age hoo hah? No, engineering. More interested in forced change than actually understanding society (ies). > > (But I've got to say that experimental psychology seems a valid > science.) Psychology took a wrong turn way back around the time between Silverman and Rogers. It, too, became more about control than understanding. > >>>>> While there are occasional surprises (as in the fact that the >>>>> discovery that weak force violates conservation of parity), certain >>>>> conservation laws work extremely well. The best are probably the laws >>>>> of thermodynamics. If you could find a way around them, you could >>>>> become wealthier than BG. ... Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> The reality of atoms. That's fairly well established, I believe. >>>> By today's science. The understanding of even atoms might be >>>> different in 1000 years. >>> Maybe a deeper understanding, but "protons, neutrons and electrons" >>> as the building blocks of the macro world Just Works. >> >> As did "earth, wind, fire and water" 2000 years ago. But even then > > But had too many holes. Well, not in the eyes of the "scientists" of the time. > >> some upstart was positing atomic structure, which, by the way, could >> not be directly observed but could be infered. (Titus Lucretius Carus, >> De Rerum Natura, c. 99 - c. 55 BCE) >> >>>>>> honestly believe that we will have Warp Drive and al the other stuff >>>>>> that is science foction today just like today we have what was just >>>>>> science fiction yesterday. So you really don't know those are laws, >>>>> I wouldn't bet much on ever going faster than light. >>>>> >>>>> Based on what we know today, many of these wild sci-fi things are >>>>> really sci-fantasy. "Well, what about what we don't know?", you say. >>>>> Well, I don't see any point in basing stuff on what we don't know!!! >>>>> "Let's see, based on what I don't know..." -- you get the idea. >>>> So, you are supporting my argument. Someone else has already >>>> pointed out that many reputable scientists today think it will >>>> be a possibility. But our current understanding of science >>>> says no. >>> Actually, they says "yes, we *do* know it might work". We just >>> don't know how to implement it. >>> >> >> Just look at this thread. We now have both "yes it can" and "no it >> can't". Ah, the wonders of science. >> >>>>>> just today's theories. And, if there is such a being, they're His >>>>> I'd not suggest fitting wings to your arms and jumping off a cliff -- >>>>> there's the, uh, "law" of gravity in play here. >>>> Which is relevant how? Man defeated gravity's hold a long, long time >>>> ago. Today, we tempt gravity just for fun and excitement. >>>> >>>>>> laws and he can do with them as He pleases. Nope, no conflict. >>>>> "He" doesn't seem to be doing much with them at all. >>>> What did you want Him to do? Perform a personal miracle for >>>> you? The age of miracles is long past. >>> Why? >> >> Don't know, but the next time He talks to me I'll ask Him. :-) >> >> Actually, I am doing research right now on the basis for supposed >> apparitions in modern times and all the evidence seems to point >> to social phenomena and not miracles. > > Hmmm. Why am I not surprised? > >>>>>> Science and religion only ever conflict when science decides it wants >>>>>> to be God itself. Or when certain whackos decide to interpret religion >>>>> Example, please? >>>> You gave one of the perfect one's below, what more do you want? >>>> >>>>>> in a way that conflicts. Reality (as usual) is quite different. >>>>> What? As in interpreting a 6000-year-old world as being 6000 years >>>>> old? Yeah, that's wacko all right! >>>> There is nowhere in the bible where there is a timetable given for >>>> the time period from creation to Adam and Eve being evicted from >>>> their luxury condo. And, pretty much every other conflict can be >>>> as easily resolved unless one just wants the conflict to be there. >>>> Trust me, there are just as many conflicts between science and history >>>> which science chooses to merely sweep under tha table because they don't >>>> have an explanation. >>> Pedantic, but important: "Science" doesn't sweep it under the rug, >>> *humans* sweep it under the rug. >> >> And what is "science" other than the result of the actions of >> humans? > > I guess I'd counter that with "science the theory" vs. "science as > practiced". Yeah, well theory never seems to translate well to practice but it is the practice that we are supposed to accept as fact. > >> I overhear students everyday talking about faking lab >> results in order to "get the result the teacher wanted". Do you >> really think that after developing this behavior during their >> training they are going to miraculously adopt the true scientific >> method when they leave here? Considering how many cases of faked >> results I read about everyday, I think the answer to that one is >> rather obvious. Always remember, the most important result of any >> scientific exploration, experiment or research is to keep the grant >> money coming. The size of the grant is determined by the result, >> not the opposite. > > Now you're sounding like a conservative denier of global warming!!! I don't deny the existence of global warming. I do deny the total arrogance of a handful of men (who call themselves scientists) who not only claim man is the major contributor but actually think man has the power to do something about it. I have pointed out in the past in one of these discussions a pair of interviews with the same man at NASA who on one hand claimed we were accidentally changing the climate of the earth and ont he other hand claimed we could not terraform Mars because man doesn't have the power to change the climate of a planet. Go figure. Tell me again why I should take anything scientists say without an extremely large grain of salt. The only interest most of them have in science is keeping the gravy train running and you don't do that by saying "there is nothing here to examine". bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:00:12 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32966@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >On 09/05/07 08:08, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <1188944683.389501.295990@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >>> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >>> Koehler) wrote: >>>> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>>> >>>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the >>>> changes. >>> no He did not ... that was planned all along ... >>> >>> God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel >>> and other prophecies and they are happening right >>> now before your very eyes ... >>> >> If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then >> everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. > >Not true. > >"Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. > No it doesn't. For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined (and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) but that doesn't imply that God or any other entity consciously created a plan of how the Universe will unfold. The predetermination would come from the initial conditions and laws of the Universe. (For the purposes of this discussion i'm ignoring the complexities about pre-determination introduced by our poor understanding of the meaning of Quantum theory and treating the Universe as a classical system). David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Knowing what will happen in the future does not imply that "you" >*planned* for it to happen that way. > >> But then all God's actions must also be predetermined which means he has no >> free-will and hence is not omnipotent. >> (One way out of this impasse might be to suppose that God could see all >> possible futures and could then choose between them by choosing or not choosing >> to act at certain points in History. But then surely there must be a "best" >> future for God's plans hence why would he do anything except instigate that >> future which being able to see all possible futures he would have seen from the >> beginning. Hence once again God's actions would be predetermined by his desire >> for the best possible outcome and hence he would again have no free-will.) > >-- >Ron Johnson, Jr. >Jefferson LA USA > >Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:57:14 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <40ea2$46e0317d$cef8887a$11281@TEKSAVVY.COM> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > No it doesn't. For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined > (and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) Unless the various laws that govern the universe (physics etc) change, then the future is already pre-determined. The problem is that we cannot find out what the future will be because we cannot get a total instant picture of the universe's state down to subatomic levels in order to apply all the laws to see what happens next. "free will" is simply the chemical and electric reactions in your brain coming to what science would say is a foregone conclusion. If we knew the exact state of your brain and all the laws that apply to it, we could determine what its next "thought" would be. From one's point of view, one has taken his/her own decision. But deep down, it is really a set of chemical/electrical reactions that happened in the brain that led to that decision. In order to really predict, you need the whole "big picture". You need to know that certain reactions in the sun will generate high energy particles and that one such partile will penetrate the earth and hit a guy's brain, generating the brain's equivalent of a memory error which will eventually result in a "different" decision being taken compared to if that particle hadn't hit his brain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:48:17 -0700 From: mohit.badgaiyan2001@gmail.com Subject: How to design test case for VAX System Message-ID: <1188992897.883589.165280@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> Hi I am new to this technology I have to design test for Vax System,what are the object i should go for to design the test. We have 3 Diffrent machine and we are going to emulate these machine to one machine. can you please help me where from i should start thanks Mohit Badgaiyan ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 08:09:25 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How to design test case for VAX System Message-ID: In article <1188992897.883589.165280@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, mohit.badgaiyan2001@gmail.com writes: > Hi > I am new to this technology > I have to design test for Vax System,what are the object i should go > for to design the test. > We have 3 Diffrent machine and we are going to emulate these machine > to one machine. > can you please help me where from i should start > thanks > Mohit Badgaiyan > Designing a test case for VAX is no different from designing a test case for any other CPU architecture, unless you can get much more specific. I think if you can't yet ask better questions, then you should start by learning enough about what you're doing to be able to ask. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:46:15 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: How to design test case for VAX System Message-ID: <6IDDi.34600$wN3.15871@bignews2.bellsouth.net> I wonder if the fellow asking is an HP India employee (VMS Support?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?) DT "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:q7v6bjnGk+CV@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <1188992897.883589.165280@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, > mohit.badgaiyan2001@gmail.com writes: >> Hi >> I am new to this technology >> I have to design test for Vax System,what are the object i should go >> for to design the test. >> We have 3 Diffrent machine and we are going to emulate these machine >> to one machine. >> can you please help me where from i should start >> thanks >> Mohit Badgaiyan >> > > Designing a test case for VAX is no different from designing a test > case for any other CPU architecture, unless you can get much more > specific. I think if you can't yet ask better questions, then you > should start by learning enough about what you're doing to be > able to ask. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:24:07 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: How to design test case for VAX System Message-ID: <1189031047.044132.191970@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 5, 7:48 am, mohit.badgaiyan2...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi > I am new to this technology > I have to design test for Vax System,what are the object i should go > for to design the test. > We have 3 Diffrent machine and we are going to emulate these machine > to one machine. > can you please help me where from i should start > thanks > Mohit Badgaiyan Sad. Very sad state of affairs. . Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 06:24:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: I have to tell you this Message-ID: Marc Van Dyck wrote: > AEF was thinking very hard : >> On Aug 30, 8:36 pm, Sue wrote: >>> Dear Newsgroup, >>> >>> So you probably know that I like to talk to folks. Anyway, this will >>> be no big deal to you but its really cool to me. So I was talking >>> (well really exchanging email) with this customer this week. He is a >>> Sys Admin at a big company and he has one (1) colleague so there is >>> two of them (2) and they manage 260 VMS systems. Do you know how cool >>> that is. Can you imagine doing that on lesser systems? Brian and Susan >>> if you are reading this you are doing an awesome job! >>> >>> Have a great weekend everyone. >>> >>> Sue >> >> This reminds me of the VAX that was supposedly walled up and was found >> supposedly years later still running!!! Has anyone ever tracked down >> the story on this? >> >> AEF > > Urban legend I think. A colleague of mine reported the same story to > me a few month ago, excepted that it was a Novell Netware machine... I've never personally come across a walled up server, but I have seen a walled up room in a major office building in Chicago. The only way in was though a hole that had to be cut into a wall, or by breaking into a window (nobody did that). The room was clearly unused for many years, while all the offices around it were. There was nothing apparently wrong with it, and nobody could figure out why it was walled up to start with. It was about 1000 square feet in size. The location was the Old Colony building, 9th floor, center of the building along the west side. The weird room was opened up in 1999. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:32:34 -0700 From: David Mathog Subject: Re: I have to tell you this Message-ID: Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 30, 8:36 pm, Sue wrote: >> He is a >> Sys Admin at a big company and he has one (1) colleague so there is >> two of them (2) and they manage 260 VMS systems. > > This is great news and I'd give my eye teeth to learn the name of > their organization. While I don't doubt that two people could manage that number of VMS systems it's really dumb for the company to run things that way. All it would take is a serious car accident when these two are driving together one day (to lunch, for instance) and that company would be totally screwed. Regards, David Mathog ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 17:15:07 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: I have to tell you this Message-ID: <5k5i4rF25r06U1@mid.individual.net> In article , David Mathog writes: > Neil Rieck wrote: >> On Aug 30, 8:36 pm, Sue wrote: >>> He is a >>> Sys Admin at a big company and he has one (1) colleague so there is >>> two of them (2) and they manage 260 VMS systems. >> >> This is great news and I'd give my eye teeth to learn the name of >> their organization. > > While I don't doubt that two people could manage that number of > VMS systems I do. Unless by "two of them managing 260 VMS systems" you mean they actually do nothing and the machines just run themselves. I doubt two people would have enough time between them to just review the logs at regular intervals. > it's really dumb for the company to run things that way. > All it would take is a serious car accident when these two are driving > together one day (to lunch, for instance) and that company would be > totally screwed. Yeah, well there's that too. But then, I am a one man shop and the powers that be here think that's too many. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:45:57 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: I have to tell you this Message-ID: On 09/04/07 12:15, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > David Mathog writes: >> Neil Rieck wrote: >>> On Aug 30, 8:36 pm, Sue wrote: >>>> He is a >>>> Sys Admin at a big company and he has one (1) colleague so there is >>>> two of them (2) and they manage 260 VMS systems. >>> This is great news and I'd give my eye teeth to learn the name of >>> their organization. >> While I don't doubt that two people could manage that number of >> VMS systems > > I do. Unless by "two of them managing 260 VMS systems" you mean > they actually do nothing and the machines just run themselves. > I doubt two people would have enough time between them to just > review the logs at regular intervals. That's what Perl was originally designed for. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 15:53:45 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: I have to tell you this Message-ID: In article <5k5i4rF25r06U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > David Mathog writes: >> >> While I don't doubt that two people could manage that number of >> VMS systems > > I do. Unless by "two of them managing 260 VMS systems" you mean > they actually do nothing and the machines just run themselves. Two system managers for a cluster of 260 VMS systems, or even if broken down into a couple of clusters, isn't the least bit uncommon. This isn't UNIX or Windows, its VMS, and reality is different when using VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:09:29 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: I have to tell you this Message-ID: <46DDD799.6010501@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/04/07 12:15, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>In article , >> David Mathog writes: >> >>>Neil Rieck wrote: >>> >>>>On Aug 30, 8:36 pm, Sue wrote: >>>> >>>>>He is a >>>>>Sys Admin at a big company and he has one (1) colleague so there is >>>>>two of them (2) and they manage 260 VMS systems. >>>> >>>>This is great news and I'd give my eye teeth to learn the name of >>>>their organization. >>> >>>While I don't doubt that two people could manage that number of >>>VMS systems >> >>I do. Unless by "two of them managing 260 VMS systems" you mean >>they actually do nothing and the machines just run themselves. >>I doubt two people would have enough time between them to just >>review the logs at regular intervals. > > > That's what Perl was originally designed for. > Gee! And for years I used SEARCH *.LOG "-E-","-F-" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:41:04 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: I have to tell you this Message-ID: On 09/04/07 17:09, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 09/04/07 12:15, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>> In article , >>> David Mathog writes: >>> >>>> Neil Rieck wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Aug 30, 8:36 pm, Sue wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> He is a >>>>>> Sys Admin at a big company and he has one (1) colleague so there is >>>>>> two of them (2) and they manage 260 VMS systems. >>>>> >>>>> This is great news and I'd give my eye teeth to learn the name of >>>>> their organization. >>>> >>>> While I don't doubt that two people could manage that number of >>>> VMS systems >>> >>> I do. Unless by "two of them managing 260 VMS systems" you mean >>> they actually do nothing and the machines just run themselves. >>> I doubt two people would have enough time between them to just >>> review the logs at regular intervals. >> >> >> That's what Perl was originally designed for. >> > > Gee! And for years I used SEARCH *.LOG "-E-","-F-" Regular expressions are *extremely* useful. It's down-right pathetic that DCL (VMS?) hasn't integrated REs into it's wildcard handling. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:44:51 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <1188855891.325159.326310@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 3, 3:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > Compiler is mostly PL/I and TBL (Table Building Language) runtime > is VAX macro and recoded in C and some Bliss on Alpha and > (I didn't do, Digital did) *MOSTLY* written in PL/I and TBL? Not entirely in PL/I? Why haven't you written the runtime routines in PL/I rather than C or Bliss? On Sep 2, 10:04 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > As for Cobol, I can't think of anything that is better with it. Ditto for > C, Ditto for Fortran. I think that this is generally true for algorithmic > languages (didn't include Algol, Burroughs was the last hold-out) If PL/I is the king of languages and there's nothing in C that's better than it, then why isn't the entire PL/I compiler and runtime written in PL/I? Hmmmm.... Maybe there are cases where those other languages are better suited than PL/I. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:18:19 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:44:51 -0700, FrankS wrote: > On Sep 3, 3:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> Compiler is mostly PL/I and TBL (Table Building Language) runtime >> is VAX macro and recoded in C and some Bliss on Alpha and >> (I didn't do, Digital did) > > *MOSTLY* written in PL/I and TBL? Not entirely in PL/I? > > Why haven't you written the runtime routines in PL/I rather than C or > Bliss? > > On Sep 2, 10:04 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> As for Cobol, I can't think of anything that is better with it. Ditto >> for >> C, Ditto for Fortran. I think that this is generally true for >> algorithmic >> languages (didn't include Algol, Burroughs was the last hold-out) > > If PL/I is the king of languages and there's nothing in C that's > better than it, then why isn't the entire PL/I compiler and runtime > written in PL/I? Because Digital never had particularly good software engineering management allowed their engineers to free a rein. We used to use a small collection of utility routines written in a vareity of low level languages, Assembler and C mostly to facilitate the bootstrapping of the compiler, which in the first step was a cross-compiler. > > Hmmmm.... Maybe there are cases where those other languages are better > suited than PL/I. > I will overlook the cute remark. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:06:51 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On 09/03/07 14:02, Tom Linden wrote: > On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:04:34 -0700, Ron Johnson > wrote: > >> On 09/02/07 21:11, Tom Linden wrote: >>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:47:48 -0700, Ron Johnson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 09/02/07 09:15, Tom Linden wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:32:36 -0700, Mark Daniel >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>>>> On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? >>>>> >>>>> It is in a way, financially. But even if I were to write a web >>>>> server in >>>>> PL/I why would I? Mark has done such a fine job with WASD, and it is >>>>> well written. I frankly don't understand why HP doesn't throw Apache >>>>> and >>>>> promote WASD. I have Apache running on a Tru64 system, or did, and >>>>> there >>>>> is no comparison. >>>> >>>> While "why didn't he write the web server in PL/1?" *did* >>>> momentarily cross my mind, that was quickly discarded for practical >>>> reasons. >>>> >>>> What I was really thinking more of was the Python-powered pages. >>> >>> The thought cross my mind, but Jean-François Piéronne had already done >>> the trail blazing so there was no point to reinvent the wheel. >> >> Mmm-hmmph. So, you're saying that PL/1 is not adequate to the task? >> Such a great language shouldn't need much wheel-reinventing, right? >> > Why recode an app that is working? Why code it in Python in the first place? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:46:50 -0700 From: "Bart.Zorn@gmail.com" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <1188892010.591081.207900@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 3, 11:44 pm, FrankS wrote: > > If PL/I is the king of languages and there's nothing in C that's > better than it, then why isn't the entire PL/I compiler and runtime > written in PL/I? > > Hmmmm.... Maybe there are cases where those other languages are better > suited than PL/I. We all know that companies more often than not choose solutions that are more expensive, less reliable and much more difficult to maintain. Better technology is no argument in such cases. DEC/Compaq/HP is no exception to this. The PL/I runtime library is probably just an other example. Bart Zorn ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 06:54:38 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: In article <1188855891.325159.326310@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, FrankS writes: > On Sep 3, 3:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> Compiler is mostly PL/I and TBL (Table Building Language) runtime >> is VAX macro and recoded in C and some Bliss on Alpha and >> (I didn't do, Digital did) > > *MOSTLY* written in PL/I and TBL? Not entirely in PL/I? Tom can answer for the TBL part, but for any VMS compiler parts of it better be written in MESSAGE, CLD, SDL, etc. > Why haven't you written the runtime routines in PL/I rather than C or > Bliss? I cannot answer for Tom, but rewriting a working program into a different language just for the sake of language purity is a path fraught with peril. I have engaged in rewriting a mission-critical working program from a lower level language to a higher level language because there was a need to totally eliminate the use of static variables. The result worked, but it took several years and the original impetus that made the need high priority had dissipated. The percentage of users who really need the capabilities enabled by elimination of the static variables is minimal today. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:28:15 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:06:51 -0700, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/03/07 14:02, Tom Linden wrote: >> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:04:34 -0700, Ron Johnson >> wrote: >> >>> On 09/02/07 21:11, Tom Linden wrote: >>>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:47:48 -0700, Ron Johnson >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 09/02/07 09:15, Tom Linden wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:32:36 -0700, Mark Daniel >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>>>>> On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? >>>>>> >>>>>> It is in a way, financially. But even if I were to write a web >>>>>> server in >>>>>> PL/I why would I? Mark has done such a fine job with WASD, and it >>>>>> is >>>>>> well written. I frankly don't understand why HP doesn't throw >>>>>> Apache >>>>>> and >>>>>> promote WASD. I have Apache running on a Tru64 system, or did, and >>>>>> there >>>>>> is no comparison. >>>>> >>>>> While "why didn't he write the web server in PL/1?" *did* >>>>> momentarily cross my mind, that was quickly discarded for practical >>>>> reasons. >>>>> >>>>> What I was really thinking more of was the Python-powered pages. >>>> >>>> The thought cross my mind, but Jean-François Piéronne had already done >>>> the trail blazing so there was no point to reinvent the wheel. >>> >>> Mmm-hmmph. So, you're saying that PL/1 is not adequate to the task? >>> Such a great language shouldn't need much wheel-reinventing, right? >>> >> Why recode an app that is working? > > Why code it in Python in the first place? > I don't, you have to ask J-F -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:37:47 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 04:54:38 -0700, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <1188855891.325159.326310@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > FrankS writes: >> On Sep 3, 3:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >>> Compiler is mostly PL/I and TBL (Table Building Language) runtime >>> is VAX macro and recoded in C and some Bliss on Alpha and >>> (I didn't do, Digital did) >> >> *MOSTLY* written in PL/I and TBL? Not entirely in PL/I? TBL is a tool written in PL/I which implements a table-driven interpreter organized as a stack machine. The interpreter is written in PL/I. The TBL output is a byte stream which drives the interpreter. Alles klar, Capice? > > Tom can answer for the TBL part, but for any VMS compiler parts of > it better be written in MESSAGE, CLD, SDL, etc. > >> Why haven't you written the runtime routines in PL/I rather than C or >> Bliss? Had I managed the effort instead of Cutler and his successors, it would have been PL/I indeed, but as Larry points recoding it for purity is of dubious value. > > I cannot answer for Tom, but rewriting a working program into > a different language just for the sake of language purity is a > path fraught with peril. > > I have engaged in rewriting a mission-critical working program > from a lower level language to a higher level language because > there was a need to totally eliminate the use of static variables. > The result worked, but it took several years and the original > impetus that made the need high priority had dissipated. The > percentage of users who really need the capabilities enabled > by elimination of the static variables is minimal today. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:38:15 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <1188913095.914155.165550@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Sep 1, 9:03 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > Never understood why talented people waste their time using > crappy languages. On Sep 4, 7:54 am, Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > I cannot answer for Tom, but rewriting a working program into > a different language just for the sake of language purity is a > path fraught with peril. On Sep 4, 3:46 am, "Bart.Z...@gmail.com" wrote: > We all know that companies more often than not choose solutions that > are more expensive, less reliable and much more difficult to maintain. > Better technology is no argument in such cases. DEC/Compaq/HP is no > exception to this. > > The PL/I runtime library is probably just an other example. Tom gives the appearance (IMHO) of being a PL/I purist. I don't think there can be too much argument there, with his "crappy language" critique and other comments about how PL/I is superior to C, COBOL, FORTRAN, and other languages. He also made other comments that could be collectively interpreted (IMHO) as "any choice of a primary implementation language which requires the use of another language for utility routines demonstrates the inadequacy of the primary language". We discover, now, that in his own flagship product (the PL/I compiler) he chooses not to use PL/I exclusively. Since he is (presumably) no longer employed by DEC/Compaq/HP then he should be free to rewrite the runtime in PL/I. Maybe even produce his own TBL routines implemented in PL/I. Of course, he'll fall back on the "don't reinvent the wheel" cliche for his own purposes while criticizing others for not writing/ rewriting applications in PL/I. The fact is -- as I and others have pointed out -- that no single programming language is king of all others. They all have their strong and weak points, and sometimes the application (like a compiler, for example) demands that a mix of languages be used in its implementation. And those other languages are not "crappy" just because they're not PL/I. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:28:24 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <46DD6B88.6080408@comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 04:54:38 -0700, Larry Kilgallen > wrote: > >> In article <1188855891.325159.326310@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> FrankS writes: >> >>> On Sep 3, 3:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >>> >>>> Compiler is mostly PL/I and TBL (Table Building Language) runtime >>>> is VAX macro and recoded in C and some Bliss on Alpha and >>>> (I didn't do, Digital did) >>> >>> >>> *MOSTLY* written in PL/I and TBL? Not entirely in PL/I? >> > TBL is a tool written in PL/I which implements a table-driven interpreter > organized as a stack machine. The interpreter is written in PL/I. The TBL > output is a byte stream which drives the interpreter. Alles klar, Capice? > >> >> Tom can answer for the TBL part, but for any VMS compiler parts of >> it better be written in MESSAGE, CLD, SDL, etc. >> >>> Why haven't you written the runtime routines in PL/I rather than C or >>> Bliss? >> > > Had I managed the effort instead of Cutler and his successors, it would > have been PL/I indeed, but as Larry points recoding it for purity is > of dubious value. > >> >> I cannot answer for Tom, but rewriting a working program into >> a different language just for the sake of language purity is a >> path fraught with peril. >> Sometimes rewriting a program or a fair sized chunk of one can be a valuable exercise. It frequently forces you to recognize most of the stupid things you did the first time around and gives you the opportunity to do a far better job. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:53:14 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <910a1$46dd7f6d$cef8887a$26880@TEKSAVVY.COM> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > I cannot answer for Tom, but rewriting a working program into > a different language just for the sake of language purity is a > path fraught with peril. You need to consider the fact that when a platform becomes a dead end and you are forced to migrate to a new platform, your original languages may not all be present and you may be forced to migrate your perfectly working code to a new language which has a brighter future. It may not be "for the sake of language purity", but the end result is the same. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:05:38 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:38:15 -0700, FrankS wrote: > We discover, now, that in his own flagship product (the PL/I compiler)= > he chooses not to use PL/I exclusively. Since he is (presumably) no > longer employed by DEC/Compaq/HP then he should be free to rewrite the= > runtime in PL/I. Maybe even produce his own TBL routines implemented > in PL/I. Of course, he'll fall back on the "don't reinvent the wheel"= > cliche for his own purposes while criticizing others for not writing/ > rewriting applications in PL/I. Frank, I was never employed DEC, who licensed the Compiler in 1978 from Translation Systems, which I took over in 1981. The manner in which Cut= ler and his team implemented the compiler (this is all Documented in = "Engineering a Compiler: VAX Code Generation and Optimizatio" Anklam, et.al. Digital= = Press) is not one that I would have chosen. You don't understand what TBL is, = = but the book should help you. The compiler is, to be somewhat simplistic, = consists of a front-end and a code generator. The interface is a stream of n-tuples= consisting of a couple of hundred overloaded operators. All major phase= s = of the compiler are written as table-driven interpreters, with TBL compiling to= a = byte stream to drive the interpretive stack machine. There is no more effien= t = way to write a compiler. Here is an excert from the parser ENTRY_STMNT: IF NO_PREFIX_REMAINS THEN [ ERROR(E$MISSING_LABEL,RECOVER);] /* MUST HAVE A LABEL = */ CALL(LABEL_PREFIX_LIST); CALL(LABEL_PREFIX_LIST); MATCH(IDENTIFIER); /* ENTRY */ CALL(PARAMETER_LIST); PARSE_OPTIONS; DECLARE_ENTRY_POINT; EMIT_BLOCK_PREFIX; MATCH(SEMI_COLON); RETURN; EXEC_STMNT: if this_type(SQL_STATEMENT) then [ call(SQL_STMNT); ] else [ if this_type(CICS_STATEMENT) then [ call CICS_STMNT(); ] else [ if this_type(DL1_STATEMENT) then [ call DL1_STMNT(); ] else [ error(E$INVLID_EXEC_STMNT,RECOVER);]]] RETURN; This is an excerpt from the Semantic pass DIVIDE_OPS: CHECK_NUMBER_OF_OPERANDS(THREE_OR_FOUR); CALL(CONVERT_ARITH_INFIX); USE_PRECISION(OPERAND1,OPERAND3); USE_PRECISION(OPERAND2,OPERAND3); CHECK_PQ(3,4); RESULT_IS(RESULT_TYPE,OPERAND3_RULE); RETURN; And here is one from Alpha code generation, which employs register = Transfer Lists BRANCH_EQ_OPS: select_subcase_of_compare; /* Result returned in this_reg. /* Floating point is a special case, since subtraction might trigge= r an /* overflow exception. Need to use the compare instructions. if type(operand2,flt_bin) ! type(operand2,flt_dec) then [ if cg_type(operand2,long_flt_type) & cg_type(operand3,long_flt_type) then [ RTL '+t[%]=3Dt[%]:t[%] %%' fc op2_reg = op3_reg = op2_dead op3_dead; ] else [ /* Short floating point is a special case since VPO refuses= to /* accept compares using short floating registers. if cg_type(operand2, short_flt_type) then [ RTL '+t[%]=3DCV[s[%]] %' fa op2_reg op2_dead; ] else [ RTL '+t[%]=3Dt[%] %' fa op2_reg op2_dead; ] if cg_type(operand3, short_flt_type) then [ RTL '+t[%]=3DCV[s[%]] %' fb op3_reg op3_dead; ] else [ RTL '+t[%]=3Dt[%] %' fb op3_reg op3_dead; ] RTL '+t[%]=3Dt[%]:t[%] t[%]t[%]' fc fa fb fa fb; ] RTL '+PC=3Dt[%]!0,% t[%]' fc this_label fc; RETURN; ] RTL '+PC=3Dq[%]:0,%' this_reg this_label; RETURN; So my point is that the TBL compiler can handle very different construct= s = because the underlying interpreters which share a common algorithmic structure = (essentially what is called a Switch statement in C, each case representing an action) that h= as = very low procedure call overhead. -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 13:49:13 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <9TD4tk1zcgyZ@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1188913095.914155.165550@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, FrankS writes: > We discover, now, that in his own flagship product (the PL/I compiler) > he chooses not to use PL/I exclusively. Since he is (presumably) no > longer employed by DEC/Compaq/HP then he should be free to rewrite the > runtime in PL/I. Maybe even produce his own TBL routines implemented > in PL/I. That seems to be saying "produce one's own SDL routines, written in Bliss". TBL is a special purpose meta-language used for writing compilers. > The fact is -- as I and others have pointed out -- that no single > programming language is king of all others. They all have their > strong and weak points, and sometimes the application (like a > compiler, for example) demands that a mix of languages be used in its > implementation. And those other languages are not "crappy" just > because they're not PL/I. Some other languages are fine languages. But with the possible exception of COBOL, none of them begin with the letter C. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 13:51:50 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <$QlsQZm34lhS@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <46DD6B88.6080408@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Sometimes rewriting a program or a fair sized chunk of one can be a > valuable exercise. It frequently forces you to recognize most of the > stupid things you did the first time around and gives you the > opportunity to do a far better job. Other times it lets you prove to yourself that the rewrite was done without a valid specification. Have people forgotten the rewrite of VMS Mail ? As for the rewrite I worked on, eventually I got that product onto my own company cluster and found defects not found at the company where I was working on it. The specification was implicit in the implementation over the 16 years the original version had just grown. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:59:03 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" wrote: > Why recode an app that is working? To get the latest trendy buzz words on your CV? -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 16:01:05 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article , > "Tom Linden" wrote: > >> Why recode an app that is working? > > To get the latest trendy buzz words on your CV? > Because your boss or customer paid Gartner to tell them so. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 16:17:49 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article , > "Tom Linden" wrote: > >> Why recode an app that is working? > > To get the latest trendy buzz words on your CV? And thereby be better prepare to leave the company where you just decreased the stability of their product :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:25:21 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <53kDi.69502$GO6.66460@newsfe21.lga> On 09/04/07 06:54, Larry Kilgallen wrote: [snip] > > I cannot answer for Tom, but rewriting a working program into > a different language just for the sake of language purity is a > path fraught with peril. Yeah, but it's fun to tease Tom about his love of PL/I. > I have engaged in rewriting a mission-critical working program > from a lower level language to a higher level language because > there was a need to totally eliminate the use of static variables. > The result worked, but it took several years and the original > impetus that made the need high priority had dissipated. The > percentage of users who really need the capabilities enabled > by elimination of the static variables is minimal today. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:28:45 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On 09/04/07 09:28, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [snip] > > Sometimes rewriting a program or a fair sized chunk of one can be a > valuable exercise. It frequently forces you to recognize most of the > stupid things you did the first time around and gives you the > opportunity to do a far better job. Or scratch your head wondering, "Was this bit of weirdness written by an obviously blithering idiot, or is it a clever hack needed for some obscure corner case that I haven't figured out yet?". -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:18:20 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <46DDD9AC.8040708@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/04/07 09:28, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > [snip] > >>Sometimes rewriting a program or a fair sized chunk of one can be a >>valuable exercise. It frequently forces you to recognize most of the >>stupid things you did the first time around and gives you the >>opportunity to do a far better job. > > > Or scratch your head wondering, "Was this bit of weirdness written > by an obviously blithering idiot, or is it a clever hack needed for > some obscure corner case that I haven't figured out yet?". > Well, that's why GOOD programmers write an occasional comment! If there's no comment, my working hypothesis becomes "blithering idiot". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:24:57 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <1188959097.790412.280570@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 12:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > Frank, I was never employed DEC, who licensed the Compiler in 1978 from > Translation Systems, which I took over in 1981. On Sep 3, 6:18 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > Because Digital never had particularly good software engineering management > allowed their engineers to free a rein. We used to use a small collection > of utility routines written in a vareity of low level languages, Assembler > and C mostly to facilitate the bootstrapping of the compiler, which in the > first step was a cross-compiler. In the quote above you use Digital and "we" in the same paragraph. I drew the (reasonable) conclusion that you were employed by DEC in some compiler engineering capacity. Perhaps there is some underlying accent in your writing which is making it difficult to understand its actual meaning. On Sep 2, 10:04 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > As for Cobol, I can't think of anything that is better with it. Ditto > for C, Ditto for Fortran. I think that this is generally true for > algorithmic languages (didn't include Algol, Burroughs was the last hold-out) On Sep 4, 12:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > You don't understand what TBL is, but the book should help you. > So my point is that the TBL compiler can handle very different constructs > because the underlying interpreters which share a common algorithmic structure I understand fully that TBL is a programming language that is better able to "handle very different constructs" than PL/I's ability to do the same directly. However, that in itself contradicts your previous statements about how PL/I is superior to any other algorithimic languages. It also reinforces my comments that some languages are better suited to certain tasks than others. If PL/I was so great a solution for all things then there would have been no need to design TBL to handle those "very different constructs". On Sep 4, 12:05 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> Why haven't you written the runtime routines in PL/I rather than C or >> Bliss? > Had I managed the effort instead of Cutler and his successors, it would > have been PL/I indeed, but as Larry points recoding it for purity is > of dubious value. This is also a contradiction. If PL/I is inherently superior to C and/ or Bliss then recoding the runtime should be a vast improvement. Not for purity's sake but for whatever benefit PL/I brings over C/Bliss. More efficient, easier to maintain, better suited to the task, whatever it is that you feel makes PL/I so much better than those other languages. Those things would make the runtime better for being implemented in PL/I. By falling back to the "don't reinvent the wheel" strategy you essentially are stating that writing the runtime in PL/I .vs. C/Bliss is of no benefit. That would mean that PL/I has no advantage over the other languages. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:36:49 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On 09/04/07 21:24, FrankS wrote: [snip] > > By falling back to the "don't reinvent the wheel" strategy you > essentially are stating that writing the runtime in PL/I .vs. C/Bliss > is of no benefit. That would mean that PL/I has no advantage over the > other languages. Or... writing a large RTLis very time-consuming, more time than Kednos has to spare. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:03:30 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:36:49 -0700, Ron Johnson wrote: >> >> By falling back to the "don't reinvent the wheel" strategy you >> essentially are stating that writing the runtime in PL/I .vs. C/Bliss >> is of no benefit. That would mean that PL/I has no advantage over the >> other languages. That is certainly fallacious logic. A runtime written in PL/I has significant advantages over C/Bliss, particularly from the point of view of software reliability and maintainability. I think it is a matter of business sense, why build a Porsche if people can only afford a Chevy. > Or... writing a large RTLis very time-consuming, more time than > Kednos has to spare. Maybe. It is time-consuming only if you have learn as you go. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:07:52 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <00A6D2D0.E208B3C1@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:32:36 -0700, Mark Daniel >wrote: > >> Ron Johnson wrote: >>> On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: >>> >>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? > >It is in a way, financially. But even if I were to write a web server in >PL/I why would I? Mark has done such a fine job with WASD, and it is >well written. I frankly don't understand why HP doesn't throw Apache and >promote WASD. I have Apache running on a Tru64 system, or did, and there >is no comparison. Because they need to be able to say that they run an industry-standard web server. (It doesn't matter if it's better or not, it's the one whose name people know.) -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:49:18 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > In article , > > "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > >> Why recode an app that is working? > > > > To get the latest trendy buzz words on your CV? > > And thereby be better prepare to leave the company where you just > decreased the stability of their product :-) Or even "escape" before the mess becomes apparent. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:49:52 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > In article , > > "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > >> Why recode an app that is working? > > > > To get the latest trendy buzz words on your CV? > > > > Because your boss or customer paid Gartner to tell them so. Unfortunately I have seen that happen. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:07:15 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:07:52 -0700, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: >> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:32:36 -0700, Mark Daniel >> wrote: >> >>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>> On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? >> >> It is in a way, financially. But even if I were to write a web server >> in >> PL/I why would I? Mark has done such a fine job with WASD, and it is >> well written. I frankly don't understand why HP doesn't throw Apache >> and >> promote WASD. I have Apache running on a Tru64 system, or did, and >> there >> is no comparison. > > Because they need to be able to say that they run an industry-standard > web > server. (It doesn't matter if it's better or not, it's the one whose > name > people know.) It is a matter of branding, Alan. Look ho IBM rebranded all their computers to disassociate negative connotations. They no longer talk about mainframes and MVS, unix servers and AIX, etc., now it is z-series, i-series, z/os etc. if they wanted to keep CSWS they could, note that it doesn't say Apache. $.02. > > -- Alan -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:00:01 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <00A6D3B2.1912A1C5@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:07:52 -0700, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing > wrote: >> >> Because they need to be able to say that they run an industry-standard >> web >> server. (It doesn't matter if it's better or not, it's the one whose >> name >> people know.) > >It is a matter of branding, Alan. Look ho IBM rebranded all their >computers >to disassociate negative connotations. They no longer talk about >mainframes >and MVS, unix servers and AIX, etc., now it is z-series, i-series, z/os >etc. >if they wanted to keep CSWS they could, note that it doesn't say Apache. >$.02. The point, I think, is that if you want to present yourself as a player in the web server market, you have to run Apache - and nobody else was porting Apache, so Compaq/HP had to do it. Aside from the sales advantage, a whole lot of web-based applications from the Unix world (PHP/Perl stuff) ports and runs beautifully on Apache. I think WASD is terrific. Feature-laden, really fast, solid, well-documented and well-written (with usefully explanatory coments and everything), and I and I read a whole lot of the source code for the book so I'm not just basing that "well-written" on it working well.. I think someone who's choosing a webserver to run on their existing VMS server ought to consider WASD very seriously. And WASD users probably get faster turnaround on support issues than SWS users do - I'm a little frustrated now because MOD_OPENVMS_AUTH (or is it AUTH_OPENVMS? I forget) can't authenticate against the UAF if the /PWDMIX bit is set, and while my problem has been elevated to Engineering, it's been two weeks since I've heard anything and I can't get an ETA for a patch. But from a marketing standpoint it makes a lot more sense for HP to support Apache and the existing universe of software around it (mod_Perl, mod_php) than WASD. -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:51:21 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <13dvhlnp0micl21@corp.supernews.com> Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > >>On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:07:52 -0700, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing >> wrote: > > >>>Because they need to be able to say that they run an industry-standard >>>web >>>server. (It doesn't matter if it's better or not, it's the one whose >>>name >>>people know.) >> >>It is a matter of branding, Alan. Look ho IBM rebranded all their >>computers >>to disassociate negative connotations. They no longer talk about >>mainframes >>and MVS, unix servers and AIX, etc., now it is z-series, i-series, z/os >>etc. >>if they wanted to keep CSWS they could, note that it doesn't say Apache. >>$.02. > > > The point, I think, is that if you want to present yourself as a player in the > web server market, you have to run Apache - and nobody else was porting Apache, > so Compaq/HP had to do it. Aside from the sales advantage, a whole lot of > web-based applications from the Unix world (PHP/Perl stuff) ports and runs > beautifully on Apache. > > I think WASD is terrific. Feature-laden, really fast, solid, well-documented > and well-written (with usefully explanatory coments and everything), and I and > I read a whole lot of the source code for the book so I'm not just basing that > "well-written" on it working well.. I think someone who's choosing a webserver > to run on their existing VMS server ought to consider WASD very seriously. And > WASD users probably get faster turnaround on support issues than SWS users do - > I'm a little frustrated now because MOD_OPENVMS_AUTH (or is it AUTH_OPENVMS? > I forget) can't authenticate against the UAF if the /PWDMIX bit is set, and > while my problem has been elevated to Engineering, it's been two weeks since > I've heard anything and I can't get an ETA for a patch. > > But from a marketing standpoint it makes a lot more sense for HP to support > Apache and the existing universe of software around it (mod_Perl, mod_php) than > WASD. Amen! Of course it makes much more sense to *use* WASD :-) > -- Alan -- Sonja: Isn't nature incredible? Boris: To me, nature is... I dunno, spiders and bugs and, big fish eating little fish. And plants eating plants and animals eating... It's like an enormous restaurant. [Woody Allen; Love and Death] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:12:20 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: INFO-VAX Gateway down? Message-ID: <46df6204$0$4054$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net> Is the INFO-VAX gateway down? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:58:51 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: INFO-VAX Gateway down? Message-ID: <7dd80f60709060858k5f31e06cv7c52f1de31ccf2ff@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, Paul Raulerson wrote: > Is the INFO-VAX gateway down? Not anymore. It seems to be back and all the backlogged messages are coming in. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:08:49 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: INFO-VAX Gateway down? Message-ID: <20070906170848.GA78458@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 09:12:20PM -0500, Paul Raulerson wrote: > Is the INFO-VAX gateway down? I think it was until about 3 hours ago, seems to be working now. -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:06:21 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Nasty? was: SSH login welcome message? Message-ID: In article , Fred Bach wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > In article <5j5rbpF3sv1a5U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > > Gunshannon) writes: > >> > >> In article , > >> Malcolm Dunnett writes: > >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >>> > >>>> If you want to know about nasty, being that you are a relative newcomer > >>>> to comp.os.vms, I suggest you research one Carl J. Lydick. While c.o.v. > >>>> sometimes gets hostile and vituperations fill the threads, it is nothing > >>>> at all like the when Carl would chime in with his castigatory vitrolic > >>>> rhetoric! > >>> Carl was also a great resource and could be very helpful if you > >>> asked what he deemed a worthy question. All things considered I > >>> miss Carls postings. > >>> > >>> Lets not forget Ehud Gavron either, there was a time when c.o.v. > >>> flamage was rated in units called the Gavron. > >> Now there is a name I haven't seen in a dog's age although I still often > >> wonder what became of him. > > > > One of the last times I saw Ehud in person was at one of the last national > > DECUS events -- TGV was still a company then. > > > > I heard he sold a domain name (wallstreet.com) for a significant amount of > > money and is now living on easy street... figuratively. A google search > > of Ehud Gavron and wallstreet.com shoudl turn up some articles. > > > > Yeah, Carl and I used to get into some good discussions but I always kept > him civil in our discussions. I just had a way to do it. But I always > thought Ehud would go big someday .... > > So it's true! That's why I don't see him on this newsgroup any more. > I believe I owe Ehud a bottle of Anchor Steam beer. I had looked forward > to having it with him and having a good discussion of obfuscated VMS DCL > coding at the same time.... > > I got this from google: > http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/1999/04/19285 > > . Fred Bach . music at triumf dot c a . It's apparently up for sale again, only 10 days to go to the deadline. http://www.wallstreet.com/ -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:44:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Open source graphic drivers Message-ID: <12cce$46e03c74$cef8887a$24121@TEKSAVVY.COM> http://news.com.com/8301-13580_3-9772788-39.html ATI/AMD have decided to release open source drivers for their graphics cards. This, to help the Linux world which really wnats everything to be open sourced. Perhaps VMS can benefit from this since I would assume this would make FredK's job much easier and would enable him to support more modern graphics cards on VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:34:42 -0000 From: giotac Subject: Program Counter Message-ID: <1188930882.090734.310090@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> Hello, just a courisity :-) given the program counter there is a way to know wich routine/code is executing a process? OpenVMS V7.1-1H2 I get the PC from SHOW PROC/cont/id=xxxx thank you ciao! GIo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:06:25 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: <5ViDi.480$aS.108@newsfe12.lga> In article <1188930882.090734.310090@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, giotac writes: > > >Hello, > >just a courisity :-) >given the program counter there is a way to know wich routine/code is >executing a process? > >OpenVMS V7.1-1H2 > >I get the PC from SHOW PROC/cont/id=xxxx Yes. If you have the source listings and linker maps. I have some callable code which exploits the traceback mechanism that will do this if your code has been compiled (preferably with debug) and linked /TRACEBACK. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:30:58 +1000 From: Jim Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: <46ddc082$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au> giotac wrote: > Hello, > > just a courisity :-) > given the program counter there is a way to know wich routine/code is > executing a process? > > OpenVMS V7.1-1H2 > > I get the PC from SHOW PROC/cont/id=xxxx > A worked example of following a traceback dump is available at http://www.eight-cubed.com/articles/traceback.html Although this is aimed at reading a traceback, the principle of reading the linker map and listing files is exactly the same for a PC captured from SHOW PROCESS/CONT HTH, Jim. -- www.eight-cubed.com ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 15:57:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: In article <1188930882.090734.310090@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, giotac writes: > Hello, > > just a courisity :-) > given the program counter there is a way to know wich routine/code is > executing a process? Sure is. A little thing called the LINK map will tell you. You can take the offset into the routine and look that up in a compiler listing showing machine code and find the line that's executing and the instruction in the line. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:10:08 -0700 From: giotac Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: <1188940208.235767.108780@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> hello guys too easy! :-) I do not have the the linker map nor listing of any kid... unless I become HP employee I guess ;-) the pc start with 800.... isn't referred to OS's code/area/space? To me is engouth to know the name of the last routine called. Doing some googleizing I saw ANA/SYS... then EXAMINE , it's wrong? ciao! GIo On 4 Set, 22:30, Jim wrote: > giotac wrote: > > Hello, > > > just a courisity :-) > > given the program counter there is a way to know wich routine/code is > > executing a process? > > > OpenVMS V7.1-1H2 > > > I get the PC from SHOW PROC/cont/id=xxxx > > A worked example of following a traceback dump is available athttp://www.eight-cubed.com/articles/traceback.html > > Although this is aimed at reading a traceback, the principle of reading > the linker map and listing files is exactly the same for a PC captured > from SHOW PROCESS/CONT > > HTH, > Jim. > --www.eight-cubed.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:05:36 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: <46DDD6B0.2070606@comcast.net> giotac wrote: > Hello, > > just a courisity :-) > given the program counter there is a way to know wich routine/code is > executing a process? > > OpenVMS V7.1-1H2 > > I get the PC from SHOW PROC/cont/id=xxxx > > thank you > ciao! > GIo > $ LINK /MAP will generate linker map that shows the memory occupied by each PSECT. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:14:16 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: In article <1188940208.235767.108780@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, giotac writes: > > >hello guys > >too easy! :-) > >I do not have the the linker map nor listing of any kid... unless I >become HP employee I guess ;-) >the pc start with 800.... isn't referred to OS's code/area/space? > >To me is engouth to know the name of the last routine called. > >Doing some googleizing I saw ANA/SYS... then EXAMINE , it's >wrong? If you know how to properly use SDA, you don't need the listings to figure out where your particular PC is executing. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:56:50 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: <46DE0CE2.AD142662@spam.comcast.net> giotac wrote: > > hello guys > > too easy! :-) > > I do not have the the linker map nor listing of any kid... unless I > become HP employee I guess ;-) > the pc start with 800.... isn't referred to OS's code/area/space? > > To me is engouth to know the name of the last routine called. Perhaps you should explain what you're doing, how it's failing and whether this is a new situation or has been an issue for while. What HP software are you dealing with? What are you trying to do with it? What kinds of failures are you seeing? Is it easy to duplicate the failure? Can you attempt this on a newer VMS to see if it's fixed in a later release of VMS, the RTLs, etc. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2007 07:36:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: <+fWsNnA5jlF4@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1188940208.235767.108780@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, giotac writes: > hello guys > > too easy! :-) > > I do not have the the linker map nor listing of any kid... unless I > become HP employee I guess ;-) > the pc start with 800.... isn't referred to OS's code/area/space? > > To me is engouth to know the name of the last routine called. > > Doing some googleizing I saw ANA/SYS... then EXAMINE , it's > wrong? > > ciao! > GIo If you really need them the VMS source listings are not terribly expensive, and they include maps. What you probably need to to is track down what routine called the system routine. Generally by watching the PC you can see what that is. If the process is in a wait state then you're likely in $SYNC or $WAITFR or one of the other event flag routines, but look at the process state to give you a better hint. Knowing that your in $SYNC, $WAITFR, $HIBER, ... wouldn't be nearly as usefull as knowing how you got there. In the past I have been able to figure this out using "show process/continuous" and watching for P0 space addresses just before going into system space. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:57:05 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Program Counter Message-ID: On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:36:34 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > If you really need them the VMS source listings are not terribly > expensive, and they include maps. You also need to be certain that executables and listings correspond, which isn't always the case, as we have discovered. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 06:57:11 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Message-ID: Hi Paul, > This may turn out to be the case, but it doesn't seem to be at this point. A > write to file one > gets rolled back if I abort on file two. No, I wasn't questioning the Atomicity of your updates just the Isolation (well maybe the Durability as well). You look to be doing manual locking and unlocking already so it's probably not going to be an issue, but I didn't think RMS was as smart as a full-blown DBMS, such as Rdb, was when it came to Isolation Levels for a transaction, and the problem is that I believe that it has to be to get the job done. For example, (if you were not using manual locking) if you updated stock-on-hand in a record in file_1 from 20 to 18 and then went on to do other work/updates but before you committed your transaction, another process subtracted 5 from the same stock-on-hand and committed its txn, then you ROLLBACKed *your* txn, what's the stock-on-hand say? Does RMS Journalling come with a Monitor (a la mode de Rdb) to "freeze" access to the interesting records when your process dies? Does it then fire up a recovery process on another node in the cluster if your node died? Cheers Richard Maher "Paul Raulerson" wrote in message news:002d01c7edc5$cf3844a0$6da8cde0$@com... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 6:02 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform > > early? > > > > Hi All, > > > > If Hein and or John Regan are around could they just clear up exactly > > how > > COBOL and RMS conspire to know that the subsequent I/O is to be part of > > a > > distributed transaction? > > > > > > my_trans section. > > > > move "N" to abort_it. > > > > do write-1 invalid key go to fini. > > > > do write-2 invalid key go to fini. > > > > do rewrite-1 invalid key go to fini. > > > > fini. > > > > if rms-sts of current-file not = rms$_normal > > > > move "Y" to abort_it > > > > call "sys$putmsg" using rms-sts of . . . . > > > > I'm guessing that when you $set_file/ru then RMS knows that i/o to the > > file > > (must?) be part of a distributed transaction and if one is not > > explicitly > > declared via some XAB then the "default" transaction is used. Does this > > sound about right? Does COBOL have any syntax that let's you specify a > > TID > > that belongs to other than the default transaction? Can an RU enabled > > file > > not be excluded from a specific transaction? > > > > I suppose the thing I'm more interested in (and Paul may wish to > > explore) is > > the [I]solation part of ACID and how the presence of a 2PC must > > implicitly > > instruct RMS to effect a: - > > > > i-o-control. > > apply lock-holding on file_1, file_2, file_3. > > > Right now I am using a lock mode is manual with lock on multiple records > > and doing a read with lock for rewrites. I did have a with lock is automatic > on there, but naturally ran into sharing conflicts with open records. > > I'm actually trying to devise some tests to ensure that transaction > processing > is working the way I *think* it is working. I believe it is. > > > I mean what stops another process from seeing (and using) the results > > of > > "write-1" before the transaction is ultimately rollbacked? Does RMS not > > update the target record but only the RUJ and then commit them all in > > one > > foul swoop? (But then surely Invalid Key conditions may arise that > > previously did not exists in the first pass? Hidden updates?) > > > > Would all this be asking too much of the firmware and "it stands to > > reason" > > that you must explicitly lock all files in transactions with your own > > APPLY > > LOCK-HOLDING in which case Paul must be instructed to supply the > > various > > ALLOWING options on all his i/o statements and to subsequently includde > > the > > UNLOCKs. > > This may turn out to be the case, but it doesn't seem to be at this point. A > write to file one > gets rolled back if I abort on file two. > > > > > > > BTW. The lock timeout for COBOL is "just for show" as well :-( There is > > no > > way (short of messing with the FAB/RAB) to tell COBOL to wait for a > > record > > to be released rather than to return a failure status. > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > "Paul Raulerson" wrote in message > > news:000001c7ecf1$8ef4f480$acdedd80$@com... > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 6:16 PM > > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > > Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or > > perform > > > > early? > > > > > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > > > > > I don't know what HP recommend but, to answer your specific > > question, I > > > > would have a label "fini" as the last thing in a section and "go to > > > > fini.". > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the same thought I came up with, though I admit > > to > > being > > > a little > > > unhappy with it. If anyplace, error processing like this is the place > > for > > a > > > GO TO. ;) > > > > > > > But then I would also check the statii returned from all system > > calls > > > > and > > > > > > I do, but I stripped it out to make the example smaller and clearer. > > > > > > > call "lib$stop" if they contain any value I wasn't prepared to > > handle. > > > > > > What the heck is lib$stop??? > > > > > > > I > > > > also wouldn't attempt to do everything as part of the "invalid key" > > > > clause > > > > but rather perform a rollback section or paragraph. If you are not > > > > using > > > > sections but rather as you say a "performed paragraph" then yes I > > would > > > > use > > > > nested IFs. > > > > > > I tend to not use sections in executable code very often, but that is > > just > > > coding > > > style. I have some code I maintain that is - well - almost comical in > > how > > > they used > > > sections to excess. Ah well, one day they will pay me to rewrite it. > > :) > > > > > > IBM code is structured differently internally, so a GOBACK in the > > INVALID > > > KEY sequence > > > acts for all intents and purposes, like the GO TO FINI idea. > > > > > > >If it was a sub-program then some would use numerous "exit > > > > program"s but I don't. (Be aware that EXIT does nothing in DEC > > COBOL > > > > sections; don't know if that is the case with IBM COBOL) > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, its different. ;) It was an eye opening discovery when I read > > that > > in > > > the manual > > > a few weeks ago. > > > > > > > Also the passing mechanism for COBOL is defaulted to that of the > > last > > > > parameter (or BY REFERENCE if it is the first) so > > > > > > > > > BY VALUE 0 > > > > > BY VALUE 0 > > > > > BY REFERENCE TID > > > > > > > > could also be represented as "by value 0, 0 by reference TID". > > > > > > > > Maybe something like: - > > > > > > > > perform my_trans. > > > > if abort_it = "n" > > > > perform commit_trans > > > > else > > > > perform abort_trans. > > > > > > > > stop run. > > > > > > > > my_trans section. > > > > move "N" to abort_it. > > > > do write-1 invalid key go to fini. > > > > do write-2 invalid key go to fini. > > > > do rewrite-1 invalid key go to fini. > > > > fini. > > > > if rms-sts of current-file not = rms$_normal > > > > move "Y" to abort_it > > > > call "sys$putmsg" using rms-sts of . . . . > > > > > > > > > > This is for all intents and purposes, the code I came out with too. > > > Except for the use of the rms specific stuff. Still studying on that. > > ;) > > > > > > > > > > next_sect. > > > > > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > > > > > PS. I also would NOT USE UPPERCASE :-) > > > > > > LOL! Well, it is a bit of a bad habit, but COBOL and ASSEMBLER > > > just look strange to me in lower case. I'm still adjusting to this > > > Terminal format, which I like. One step at a time. > > > > > > BTW: Converting code to terminal format does have a nasty little > > drawback; > > > it makes it quite incompatible with legacy code on the IBM. The > > REFORMAT > > > utility is not usable in this case, because it insists on putting the > > > sequence numbers in 1-6. Moving to terminal format was a big > > commitment > > to > > > me, even if the compile will handle ANSI format. The 2002 standard > > pretty > > > much > > > makes "terminal" format mandatory to support for all COBOL compilers > > though. > > > > > > -Paul > > > > > > > > > > > "Paul Raulerson" wrote in message > > > > news:001601c7ece9$ad796e20$086c4a60$@com... > > > > > I'm a little puzzled what the recommended method here is for this > > > > case > > > > (see > > > > > sample code snippet below)... use a goto? Some System call? Embed > > > > everything > > > > > in a deep nesting of Ifs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this sample, the code is being ran from a performed paragraph. > > > > There > > > > are > > > > > three file writes necessary for this transaction to succeed, with > > > > this > > > > being > > > > > one of the sequence. If this one fails, the transaction is > > aborted > > > > (rolled > > > > > back I believe :) and the processing should return to the parent > > > > calling > > > > > process. In a previous life, I would have stuffed a GOBACK in > > there > > > > right > > > > > after the END-WRITE, or even just before the END-WRITE. > > > > > > > > > > In this life, I do not know the best or most preferred way to do > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > -Paul > > > > > > > > > > WRITE DC00-RECORD > > > > > INVALID KEY > > > > > CALL "SYS$ABORT_TRANSW" USING BY VALUE EFN > > > > > BY VALUE 0 > > > > > BY REFERENCE IOSB > > > > > BY VALUE 0 > > > > > BY VALUE 0 > > > > > BY REFERENCE TID > > > > > DISPLAY '>>> DC00 WRITE FAILED WITH INVALID KEY' > > > > > LINE 21 ERASE LINE > > > > > ACCEPT WS-USER-CHOICE > > > > > END-WRITE > > > > > ----> I want to GOBACK here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 03:10:06 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Message-ID: <1188875406.236763.181130@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 3, 6:57 pm, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi Paul, > For example, (if you were not using manual locking) if you updated > stock-on-hand in a record in file_1 from 20 to 18 and then went on to do > other work/updates but before you committed your transaction, another > process subtracted 5 from the same stock-on-hand and committed its txn, then It couldn't. RMS journalling simply keeps all records touched until commit or rollback. Safe but expensive. Much like manual locking. > you ROLLBACKed *your* txn, what's the stock-on-hand say? 20 > Does it then fire up a recovery process on another node in the cluster if your node died? Yes, On finding an ACE on the file on subsequent file access. Hein. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 08:20:20 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: RE: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Message-ID: In article <000001c7ecf1$8ef4f480$acdedd80$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] [...] >> call "lib$stop" if they contain any value I wasn't prepared to handle. > > What the heck is lib$stop??? I don't see that anyone else has answered this yet. You can get a brief answer from $ HELP RTL LIB$ LIB$STOP LIB$STOP is a VMS run time library call (or was under the VAX architecture -- I believe it is a language-supplied pseudo-call under Alpha and Itanium). It is fairly similar to LIB$SIGNAL and raises an exception that will be passed to any enabled exception handlers. With LIB$SIGNAL, exception handlers have the ability to handle the exception and allow normal execution to resume or to handle the exception, unwind the call stack and allow execution to resume at some higher level. Either way, execution resumes and exception handlers farther up the call stack are not invoked. With LIB$STOP, exception handlers lose the ability to resume normal execution. Any attempt to resume or unwind will be ignored, the signal will remain active and all higher level handlers will be invoked in turn. Image exit is ultimately assured (*) From a naive programmer's point of view, the key features of LIB$STOP are 1. It aborts the running image 2. It generates a traceback stack dump on SYS$OUTPUT and, if different, SYS$ERROR If you're trying to debug code that has encountered an unanticipated error condition, that stack dump can be invaluable. So some programmers will routinely use LIB$STOP when they write code to deal with such situations. (*) A sufficiently clever programmer can still use a condition handler, an exit handler or a user rundown handler to avoid image exit. And, of course, any fool can create an infinite loop in a handler by accident. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:59:40 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Message-ID: On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 06:35:07 -0700, Paul Raulerson wrote: > How would you write this for PL/I, and, all this good natured joshing > aside, what do you think makes it better? Inquiring minds want to know... > even if it is "topic drift" of a high order. I have forgotten what the original problem was and is long since deleted. Signal handling is an integral part of the language at the semantic level of the language allowing you, e.g. create custom signal handling without having to make library calls as required in other languages. CONDITION is a data type in PL/I http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_011.html#data_81 and there are a number ways to handle conditions http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_023.html#prog_31 Condition handlers inherit declaration from their containing scopes and have their own stack frame, but know they from where they were called so upon processing the condition, if correcdtable, execution may continue from which the conditon occurred, was signalled or resignalled. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:03:11 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: References: header (was Re: Exporting data tied up in a VAX/VMS system) syst Message-ID: <5k5b84F26324U1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-08-30 15:09, "norm.raphael@metso.com" wrote: > Michael Unger wrote on 08/29/2007 04:22:40 > PM: > >> On 2007-08-29 20:13, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> >> > Norm, I use Opera which has a pretty good newsreader, displaying > threads >> > by >> > indentation, but your reply appears as a new thread. Why is that? >> >> I don't know Opera -- but there is *no* "References:" header at all in >> that posting which made its way through Info-VAX. >> > > I don't know enough about headers to discuss this. I have been using > Info-VAX for years from NotesMail and this is the first time a threading > issue has been mentioned. I donn't know a lot of different newsreaders -- but Mozilla/SeaMonkey do "Threading by Subject" in default mode. You have to define a "User Preference" entry in user.js to *enforce* "Threading by References". There's no GUI (for that option) AFAIK. > [...] > > I would welcome a pointer to any controlling RFP and a suggestion as to > what > to ask my Notes Admistration Service Desk (ironic emoticon suppressed). I don't know if Notes is able to cope with "Message-ID:" and "References:" headers ... Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:25:18 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: HI. Currently running VMS system with : DS20/500, 2 CPU VMS 7.3-2 TCPIP 5.4 ECO 2 OSU web server 3.6 and 3.8 (in three running copies) Now I've been asked to evaluate "WEB Services" as a new "interface" to this system. I have checked the WSIT and SOAP pages at HP. As far as I can see, there are a few show stoppers as the system is configured today. I need (at least one) ODS-5 disk and also a current JAVA install for WSIT. But, according to the development manual for WSIT, there are (at least one) some tools (OBJ2IDL.EXE) that only runs on VMS I64. That's a major problem, of course. Anyway, are there anyone who actualy have tried/used these tools? And any other thought about this WEB Services "thing" are also welcome. I'm currenly using the simple DCL scripting of the OSU server (which works just OK) to produce dynamic page contents. The WEB services is ment to be a data-transfer interface, sort of not-having-to-use-FTP. I guess that one also cat get a more "on-line" interface where apps can exchange status info over the same connection. Now, not realy sure what I'm talking about here... :-) :-) Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:49:15 GMT From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > HI. > Currently running VMS system with : > > DS20/500, 2 CPU > VMS 7.3-2 > TCPIP 5.4 ECO 2 > OSU web server 3.6 and 3.8 (in three running copies) > > Now I've been asked to evaluate "WEB Services" > as a new "interface" to this system. I have checked > the WSIT and SOAP pages at HP. As far as I can see, > there are a few show stoppers as the system is > configured today. I need (at least one) ODS-5 disk > and also a current JAVA install for WSIT. But, according > to the development manual for WSIT, there are (at least one) > some tools (OBJ2IDL.EXE) that only runs on VMS I64. > That's a major problem, of course. > > Anyway, are there anyone who actualy have tried/used > these tools? And any other thought about this WEB Services > "thing" are also welcome. > > I'm currenly using the simple DCL scripting of the OSU > server (which works just OK) to produce dynamic page > contents. The WEB services is ment to be a data-transfer > interface, sort of not-having-to-use-FTP. I guess that one > also cat get a more "on-line" interface where apps can > exchange status info over the same connection. Now, not > realy sure what I'm talking about here... :-) :-) > > > Jan-Erik. I use SOAP to communicate with several other companies that I don't know (and don't really care) what O/S, etc they use. It works very well for me. Tools? Practically none. All SOAP is, as far as I can see, is some standardized XML which I generate using an XML template from an OpenVMS Basic program calling CURL to do the actual transmission. The last one I did, took me about 3 hours from receiving the SOAP spec to actually exchanging data. Could some tools reduce that programming time? Maybe if I spent a month or so sorting out all the options, learning how they are supposed to be used, Googling out arcane questions that everyone asks and no one answers. CURL is one of the tools that I have found that is really worth learning what the options can really do for you. Jeff Coffield ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:51:20 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >> HI. >> Currently running VMS system with : >> >> DS20/500, 2 CPU >> VMS 7.3-2 >> TCPIP 5.4 ECO 2 >> OSU web server 3.6 and 3.8 (in three running copies) >> >> Now I've been asked to evaluate "WEB Services" >> as a new "interface" to this system. I have checked >> the WSIT and SOAP pages at HP. As far as I can see, >> there are a few show stoppers as the system is >> configured today. I need (at least one) ODS-5 disk >> and also a current JAVA install for WSIT. But, according >> to the development manual for WSIT, there are (at least one) >> some tools (OBJ2IDL.EXE) that only runs on VMS I64. >> That's a major problem, of course. >> >> Anyway, are there anyone who actualy have tried/used >> these tools? And any other thought about this WEB Services >> "thing" are also welcome. >> >> I'm currenly using the simple DCL scripting of the OSU >> server (which works just OK) to produce dynamic page >> contents. The WEB services is ment to be a data-transfer >> interface, sort of not-having-to-use-FTP. I guess that one >> also cat get a more "on-line" interface where apps can >> exchange status info over the same connection. Now, not >> realy sure what I'm talking about here... :-) :-) >> >> >> Jan-Erik. > > I use SOAP to communicate with several other companies that I don't know > (and don't really care) what O/S, etc they use. It works very well for > me. Tools? Practically none. All SOAP is, as far as I can see, is some > standardized XML which I generate using an XML template from an OpenVMS > Basic program calling CURL to do the actual transmission. The last one I > did, took me about 3 hours from receiving the SOAP spec to actually > exchanging data. Could some tools reduce that programming time? Maybe if > I spent a month or so sorting out all the options, learning how they are > supposed to be used, Googling out arcane questions that everyone asks > and no one answers. > > CURL is one of the tools that I have found that is really worth learning > what the options can really do for you. > > Jeff Coffield Hi. Sound interesting. cURL is like a file transfer tool, as far as I know. In my case, my server will mostly *receive* data (datafiles with fixed format structured records). That is, as the receiving side of an "WEB Service" transaction. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:24:03 -0000 From: issinoho Subject: USB Modem Message-ID: <1188897843.839785.30480@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> Chaps, I am trying to source compatible USB modems which I can use with an rx2660 running I64 V8.3 Ideally I want to have a bunch of these hanging from a USB hub and have UCM automagically create TXAn ports. Therefore I am looking for compatible modem and hub hardware. Many thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:37:47 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: "issinoho" wrote in message news:1188897843.839785.30480@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > Chaps, > > I am trying to source compatible USB modems which I can use with an > rx2660 running I64 V8.3 > > Ideally I want to have a bunch of these hanging from a USB hub and > have UCM automagically create TXAn ports. > > Therefore I am looking for compatible modem and hub hardware. > > Many thanks in advance. > The problem with USB Modems is that they tend to be unique. We do have (and ship) an *unsupported* modem driver for an old Compaq 56k fax/modem (p/n: 322050-001 - and a quick Google search shows that they can be found - even if the picture is a PCI card :-). But we have not written any new modem drivers and do not currently support one - mostly because writing new drivers is demand driven. If you need a fully supported device, contact Leo Demers at HP dot com who is the business manager that collects requests for device support. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:18:21 -0000 From: issinoho Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: <1188911901.359863.249870@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 1:37 pm, "FredK" wrote: > "issinoho" wrote in message > > news:1188897843.839785.30480@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > > > Chaps, > > > I am trying to source compatible USB modems which I can use with an > > rx2660 running I64 V8.3 > > > Ideally I want to have a bunch of these hanging from a USB hub and > > have UCM automagically create TXAn ports. > > > Therefore I am looking for compatible modem and hub hardware. > > > Many thanks in advance. > > The problem with USB Modems is that they tend to be unique. > > We do have (and ship) an *unsupported* modem driver for an old Compaq 56k > fax/modem (p/n: 322050-001 - and a quick Google search shows that they can > be found - even if the picture is a PCI card :-). But we have not written > any new modem drivers and do not currently support one - mostly because > writing new drivers is demand driven. > > If you need a fully supported device, contact Leo Demers at HP dot com who > is the business manager that collects requests for device support. Fred, My local HP supplier has offered this model, http://www.dynamode.net/details.asp?id=151 Would you expect it to have any chance of working? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:07:32 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: "issinoho" wrote in message news:1188911901.359863.249870@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... > On Sep 4, 1:37 pm, "FredK" wrote: >> "issinoho" wrote in message >> >> news:1188897843.839785.30480@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... >> >> > Chaps, >> >> > I am trying to source compatible USB modems which I can use with an >> > rx2660 running I64 V8.3 >> >> > Ideally I want to have a bunch of these hanging from a USB hub and >> > have UCM automagically create TXAn ports. >> >> > Therefore I am looking for compatible modem and hub hardware. >> >> > Many thanks in advance. >> >> The problem with USB Modems is that they tend to be unique. >> >> We do have (and ship) an *unsupported* modem driver for an old Compaq 56k >> fax/modem (p/n: 322050-001 - and a quick Google search shows that they >> can >> be found - even if the picture is a PCI card :-). But we have not >> written >> any new modem drivers and do not currently support one - mostly because >> writing new drivers is demand driven. >> >> If you need a fully supported device, contact Leo Demers at HP dot com >> who >> is the business manager that collects requests for device support. > > Fred, > > My local HP supplier has offered this model, > http://www.dynamode.net/details.asp?id=151 > > Would you expect it to have any chance of working? > I looked at the page, and can't tell. I poked around and my "guess" is yes based on the claim that it is Linux plug&play compatible. Heck, it looks to be < $40US on the web. So the worst that can happen is it doesn't work. According to the driver writer, the driver is compliant with the USB comunications spec for modems. At the time the Compaq modem was one of the few that complied (USR did as well - I don't have the model number). In theory, look for a modem that advertises itself as being "CDC ACM" compliant and also says "AT command set". For example: http://www.radi.com/modular55.htm says both of the right things... but we have never tried it. But many devices don't explicitly say anything about one or the other. I think a clue might be if the device claims Linux plug&play support without requiring a unique driver download (linux has support for the same thing). When you plug the device in, you "may" need to create an entry in SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT - but it might "just work". If it doesn't configure as TXA0 then search SYS$CONFIG.DAT for "modem" and you will find the Compaq and USR examples. UCM SHOW EVENT/PRIOR=ALL will show you the information for the modem itself. Note that we do not "officially" support the modem devices, because we have not done extensive qualification. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:52:33 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: <46DE0BE1.9D1AA379@spam.comcast.net> FredK wrote: > [snip] > Note that we do not "officially" support the modem devices, because we have > not done extensive qualification. O.K. I'll bite - why does a modem need a driver beyond the usual terminal driver? As long as it appears to be a standards-compliant async. serial device, what more is needed? Interacting with "AT" command-set modems is best left to application, is it not? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:39:26 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: "David J Dachtera" wrote in message news:46DE0BE1.9D1AA379@spam.comcast.net... > FredK wrote: >> [snip] >> Note that we do not "officially" support the modem devices, because we >> have >> not done extensive qualification. > > O.K. I'll bite - why does a modem need a driver beyond the usual terminal > driver? As long as it appears to be a standards-compliant async. serial > device, > what more is needed? > > Interacting with "AT" command-set modems is best left to application, is > it not? > OK. I'll bite. What is a "standards-compliant async serial device"? Answer: The only "standard" is what it talks out of the serial wires, not the interface itself. A "USB Modem" isn't a serial wire connected to an external modem, it is a device that presents an interface to the system like a serial port, but talks directly to a modem connection. So, it needs a classic serial port driver. The CDC-ACM is the "standardized" interface model designed by the USB folks. Why do we need to know about "AT command-set" - this has more to do with configuration and application assumptions than with the actual application data itself. The magic conditions for the VMS CDC-ACM compliant driver to be loaded are: Interface Class: Communications Device (CDC) Interface Subclass: Abstract Communications Model (ACM) Interface Protocol: Common AT Command Set We will also load the driver for Protocol = None and assume the AT command set is available. So applications that talk to the modem can assume AT commands. We provide no way to differentiate between modems with some "other" command set. I don't believe that the driver itself sends any AT commands (but I didn't write the driver). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:49:01 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: <46DF5C8D.3A30E892@spam.comcast.net> FredK wrote: > > "David J Dachtera" wrote in message > news:46DE0BE1.9D1AA379@spam.comcast.net... > > FredK wrote: > >> [snip] > >> Note that we do not "officially" support the modem devices, because we > >> have > >> not done extensive qualification. > > > > O.K. I'll bite - why does a modem need a driver beyond the usual terminal > > driver? As long as it appears to be a standards-compliant async. serial > > device, > > what more is needed? > > > > Interacting with "AT" command-set modems is best left to application, is > > it not? > > > > OK. I'll bite. What is a "standards-compliant async serial device"? See the source code for SYS$TTDRIVER > Answer: The only "standard" is what it talks out of the serial wires, not > the interface itself. Well, yes and no. What it looks like to hardware is one thing. What it looks like to the software layers above that is something else entirely. > A "USB Modem" isn't a serial wire connected to an external modem, ...but for all practical purposes, should appear as such to the application. A USB to async. serial adapter could just as easily have a USR Speedster modem connected to it as a VT terminal. That's all it needs to look like. The fact that my app. needs to converse with it in "AT"-ese is entirely incidental. We keep trying to overcomplicate everything, then we wonder why we're starting to need a 52-hour day. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:14:07 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: On 09/05/07 20:49, David J Dachtera wrote: [snip] > > We keep trying to overcomplicate everything, then we wonder why > we're starting to need a 52-hour day. Amen, brother. My father (he'd worship Bill Gates if he could) was just commenting this evening about how fast Win98 shuts down compared to XP. I, of course, piped up about complexity. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:42:42 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: "David J Dachtera" wrote in message news:46DF5C8D.3A30E892@spam.comcast.net... > FredK wrote: >> >> OK. I'll bite. What is a "standards-compliant async serial device"? > > See the source code for SYS$TTDRIVER > TTDRIVER is just the class driver. A *port* driver for it must support a small subset of the actual port/class interface. So it is unclear to me what TTDRIVER has to do with the price of tea in China. The device itself is handled by the port drivers - and trust me - there is no "standard" for the interface other than what comes out the connector on the outside of the box. >> Answer: The only "standard" is what it talks out of the serial wires, >> not >> the interface itself. > > Well, yes and no. What it looks like to hardware is one thing. What it > looks > like to the software layers above that is something else entirely. > What does this have to do with the need for a USB driver to talk to the USB modem? Do you think "magic happens"? This entire thread was about the fact that USB modems need a special driver and that not all USB modems present the same interface to the system, and that the VMS USB modem driver is written to a specific standard - and to tell the OP what to look for. >> A "USB Modem" isn't a serial wire connected to an external modem, > > ...but for all practical purposes, should appear as such to the > application. A > USB to async. serial adapter could just as easily have a USR Speedster > modem > connected to it as a VT terminal. That's all it needs to look like. > Then it isn't a USB modem. Heck, he could just by a Digi serial dongle and connect it to an external modem. Or someone could build something that resembles what you suggest. But who cares? We have code for a specific type of USB modem. > The fact that my app. needs to converse with it in "AT"-ese is entirely > incidental. > So? My only point here is that what the driver writers assumptions were and are. When YC (TXA*) is configured, your application can assume by default that the AT command set is available. If you manage to find a CDC-ACM modem that doesn't use the AT set, and manage to configure it - you and your application assumptions are on your own. > We keep trying to overcomplicate everything, then we wonder why we're > starting > to need a 52-hour day. > Seems that you are overcomplicating this. The OP wanted to find a USB modem that works on VMS. I told him an (unsupported) driver ships on the system that supports a specific type of modem, what modem was tested, and what to look for that matches the standard which we tested. You want to quibble about the AT command set being needed, and suggest that serial devices are all standard anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:06:51 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: USB Modem Message-ID: "FredK" wrote in message news:fbp04j$ljs$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > > "David J Dachtera" wrote in message > news:46DF5C8D.3A30E892@spam.comcast.net... >> FredK wrote: > >>> >>> OK. I'll bite. What is a "standards-compliant async serial device"? >> >> See the source code for SYS$TTDRIVER >> Let me suggest that we are talking at cross purposes. Here is a (slightly shortened for clarity) diagram: Telephone wire ----> Device ----> Modem/Serial Port driver ----> TTDRIVER ---> Application These parts are "standard": Telephone wire ----> Device TTDRIVER ---> Application as is the driver software interface between: Modem/Serial Port driver ----> TTDRIVER (bearing in mind that there is no device that supports all port/class interfaces - only a small subset is needed or generally implemented). THIS connection: Device ----> Modem/Serial Port driver Is unique to the device and it's driver. That is why you need a port driver. There *is* a standard for USB Modems CDC ACM - not ALL USB modems follow this standard. Further, the USB specification for this model provided a way to determine the protocol - in this case - the common AT command set. Our driver and our configuration record allows a device that uses the AT command set *or* that specifies NO Protocol (assumed to be AT) to be configured. While we can know the protocol in the USM modem driver, I do not believe that the port/class interface or TTDRIVER has a means to pass this information to the application. If a modem is configured by VMS - it can then be assumed by the application to support the AT command set - and this is the only combination we have done any testing of. Is it *possible* to find a USB Modem that is CDC ACM compatible that does not support the AT command set? Possibly. But we aren't looking to find one, and don't really care to figure that out - we don't officially test/qualify any USB Modem right now. "Might" it work? Sure, but it probably requires a new configuration record. Does it matter to the OP? My assumption is he wants to find something that will "plug&play". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:15:01 -0500 From: "Williams, Arlen" Subject: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: <3DC4616854D6A84884BCB5FC545B35740161C30A@usplm203.amer.corp.eds.com> We have a program that must have a memory leak, but we can't find it. Any suggestions as to what we can use to find it? We can't recreate it in our test systems, it just shows up in our production system. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 13:58:47 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: In article <3DC4616854D6A84884BCB5FC545B35740161C30A@usplm203.amer.corp.eds.com>, "Williams, Arlen" writes: > We have a program that must have a memory leak, but we can't find it. > Any suggestions as to what we can use to find it? $ HELP DEBUG Heap_Analyzer > We can't recreate it > in our test systems, it just shows up in our production system. My first guess is that is due to an inadequate test suite. But run the Heap Analyzer, correct all defects, and you will likely find the leak goes away. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 15:54:25 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: <0oE91Cj0Y50H@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <3DC4616854D6A84884BCB5FC545B35740161C30A@usplm203.amer.corp.eds.com>, "Williams, Arlen" writes: > We have a program that must have a memory leak, but we can't find it. > Any suggestions as to what we can use to find it? We can't recreate it > in our test systems, it just shows up in our production system. Not unusual. It probably means you have to run your tests longer, much longer. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 16:18:22 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: In article <0oE91Cj0Y50H@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <3DC4616854D6A84884BCB5FC545B35740161C30A@usplm203.amer.corp.eds.com>, "Williams, Arlen" writes: >> We have a program that must have a memory leak, but we can't find it. >> Any suggestions as to what we can use to find it? We can't recreate it >> in our test systems, it just shows up in our production system. > > Not unusual. It probably means you have to run your tests longer, > much longer. Or with different data sets. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:00:22 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: <46DDD576.9090507@comcast.net> Williams, Arlen wrote: > We have a program that must have a memory leak, but we can't find it. > Any suggestions as to what we can use to find it? We can't recreate it > in our test systems, it just shows up in our production system. There are tools for doing this on other platforms. Without changing platforms, your best bet is create wrappers for malloc() and maybe free() that attach some logging information to every allocation. Then you run your app for long enough to gobble up a significant amount of memory, dump it and see who allocated all that memory. Then you have the joyful task of figuring out who should have free()ed it. Some C programmers seem to feel that most memory usage should be dynamically allocated. A lot of the original thrust was due to computers that just didn't HAVE much memory and you had no choice but to recycle it. With virtual memory, this sort of thing is less necessary than it used to be. If you can build and run the code on a platform that has tools such as "Purify" (the name that comes to mind: I hope it's right) that's the way to go. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 22:44:52 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: <2jwMSc9FWYfU@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <46DDD576.9090507@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Williams, Arlen wrote: >> We have a program that must have a memory leak, but we can't find it. >> Any suggestions as to what we can use to find it? We can't recreate it >> in our test systems, it just shows up in our production system. > > There are tools for doing this on other platforms. Without changing > platforms, your best bet is create wrappers for malloc() and maybe > free() that attach some logging information to every allocation. Why would one do that, when the Heap Analyzer already exists ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:53:18 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Why would one do that, when the Heap Analyzer already exists ? Does the heap analizer tell you which routine has allocated a block that wasn't deallocated later ? When you have an application with a mystery memory leak that doesn't happen all the time, going step by step in the debugger will take forever to find the memory leak. Wrapper routines allow you to add statements in the wrapper to log each call to some log file. And you can then log some separator betwene each transaction as well as some info about a transaction. And then check the log file to see if each transaction leaves some allocated block. (I had a counter, so that alloc would add 1 to it, and free would remove 1 from it, so between transactions, I could easily see if all the structures allocated during a transactions were freed at end of transaction). You can then add more logging once you focus on where things might not get deallocated properly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:14:24 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Utility for finding memory leaks in C on VMS Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:53:18 -0700, JF Mezei wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> Why would one do that, when the Heap Analyzer already exists ? > > Does the heap analizer tell you which routine has allocated a block that > wasn't deallocated later ? > > When you have an application with a mystery memory leak that doesn't > happen all the time, going step by step in the debugger will take > forever to find the memory leak. > > > Wrapper routines allow you to add statements in the wrapper to log each > call to some log file. And you can then log some separator betwene each > transaction as well as some info about a transaction. And then check the > log file to see if each transaction leaves some allocated block. > > (I had a counter, so that alloc would add 1 to it, and free would remove > 1 from it, so between transactions, I could easily see if all the > structures allocated during a transactions were freed at end of > transaction). You can then add more logging once you focus on where > things might not get deallocated properly. That is what PL/I CONTROLLED storage does. You also can defined your own private heaps attach to specific programs using AREA. It is appalling to see the lack of progress in programming. The techiques we were using 40 years ago more sophisticated than what you guys are struggling with today. How stupid is that. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:21:02 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: <5IednYgOFuL9VkDbnZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@comcast.com> It occurred to me while writing about pass by descriptor for Fortran assumed shape arrays that there is a difference between PL/I and Fortran. Since VMS standardizes the %descr calling convention it would seem to support one or the other. PL/I passes the lower bounds for arrays, where Fortran does not. A called routine in Fortran addresses the array with lower bounds of 1, or other lower bound specified in the called routine. It would seem that VMS would follow one or the other, but I didn't find anything searching descr or %descr in the VMS documentation web page. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:25:02 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: <1188944702.638617.90920@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 6:21 pm, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > It occurred to me while writing about pass by descriptor for > Fortran assumed shape arrays that there is a difference between > PL/I and Fortran. Since VMS standardizes the %descr calling > convention it would seem to support one or the other. > > PL/I passes the lower bounds for arrays, where Fortran does not. > A called routine in Fortran addresses the array with lower bounds > of 1, or other lower bound specified in the called routine. > > It would seem that VMS would follow one or the other, but I > didn't find anything searching descr or %descr in the VMS > documentation web page. > > -- glen Glen, The documentation that you want is contained in the VAX Architecture reference manual (I admit that I do not have an online citation, I still look this kind of thing up in my numerous hardcopy sets of the books). You also want to check the Programmer's Guide for the language, which may contain useful related information (depending on the language, these may be available on the OpenVMS www site). - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:34:37 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: Bob Gezelter wrote: (snip about VMS, call by descriptor (%descr), for Fortran and PL/I) >>It would seem that VMS would follow one or the other, but I >>didn't find anything searching descr or %descr in the VMS >>documentation web page. > The documentation that you want is contained in the VAX Architecture > reference manual (I admit that I do not have an online citation, I > still look this kind of thing up in my numerous hardcopy sets of the > books). Does that mean it is VAX specific, and not VMS specific? -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:36:04 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:21:02 -0700, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > > It occurred to me while writing about pass by descriptor for > Fortran assumed shape arrays that there is a difference between > PL/I and Fortran. Since VMS standardizes the %descr calling > convention it would seem to support one or the other. > > PL/I passes the lower bounds for arrays, where Fortran does not. > A called routine in Fortran addresses the array with lower bounds > of 1, or other lower bound specified in the called routine. > > It would seem that VMS would follow one or the other, but I > didn't find anything searching descr or %descr in the VMS > documentation web page. > > -- glen > I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compiler inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with Fortran. Isn't the descriptor defined in SDL? -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 02:05:38 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: <1188957938.856705.174590@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Sep 4, 6:36 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:21:02 -0700, glen herrmannsfeldt > > > > > > wrote: > > > It occurred to me while writing about pass by descriptor for > > Fortran assumed shape arrays that there is a difference between > > PL/I and Fortran. Since VMS standardizes the %descr calling > > convention it would seem to support one or the other. > > > PL/I passes the lower bounds for arrays, where Fortran does not. > > A called routine in Fortran addresses the array with lower bounds > > of 1, or other lower bound specified in the called routine. > > > It would seem that VMS would follow one or the other, but I > > didn't find anything searching descr or %descr in the VMS > > documentation web page. > > > -- glen > > I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compiler > inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with Fortran. > Isn't the descriptor defined in SDL? > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - HP OpenVMS Calling Standard http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5973/5973pro_contents.html Chapter 7 OpenVMS Argument Descriptors 7.4 Array Descriptor (CLASS_A) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5973/5973pro_020.html#vaxarray_desc_sec Hein ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:04:07 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: <5k6o68F2d0oqU1@mid.individual.net> glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > > It occurred to me while writing about pass by descriptor for > Fortran assumed shape arrays that there is a difference between > PL/I and Fortran. Since VMS standardizes the %descr calling > convention it would seem to support one or the other. > > PL/I passes the lower bounds for arrays, where Fortran does not. > A called routine in Fortran addresses the array with lower bounds > of 1, or other lower bound specified in the called routine. > > It would seem that VMS would follow one or the other, but I > didn't find anything searching descr or %descr in the VMS > documentation web page. As you well know, being an active participant in comp.lang.fortran, assumed shape arrays are a very recent addition to Fortran (F90) compared to the history of both Fortran and VMS. Prior to F90, there were neither assumed shape arrays nor any intrinsics to retrieve (declared) array bounds. And as is discussed periodically in c.l.f, 1 is the only reasonable lower bound for array slices and the like. (I won't bore c.o.v or c.l.pl1 readers with Fortran features which allow the called procedure to use an arbitrary lower bound, etc.) OTOH, it seems quite plausible (in my ignorance) that other language standards might specify that called procedures have access to and/or use the bounds as declared in the caller. I don't know. Sounds like PL/I perhaps does. But VMS arrays descriptors are flexible enough to handle either requirement. I didn't read Hein's references as to what the calling standard has to say on the subject, but it seems reasonable not to force either convention on a given language and its compiler. -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:27:46 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:21:02 -0700, glen herrmannsfeldt > wrote: >> It occurred to me while writing about pass by descriptor for >> Fortran assumed shape arrays that there is a difference between >> PL/I and Fortran. Since VMS standardizes the %descr calling >> convention it would seem to support one or the other. (snip) > I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compiler > inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with Fortran. > Isn't the descriptor defined in SDL? That should work for Fortran calling other languages with %descr, but how about PL/I calling Fortran? I will look at the references provided in another post. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:12:42 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: (snip) > I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compiler > inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with Fortran. > Isn't the descriptor defined in SDL? Now it gets interesting. The formula given to find the address of an array element is (are): E = A0 + S1*I1 + . . . + Sn*In = POINTER + S1*[I1 - L1] + . . . + Sn*[In - Ln] Note that there are two ways to do it. The first uses A0, the virtual origin (address of the array element with all subscripts zero, which may or may not actually be inside the array). The second uses POINTER which is the address of the actual first element of the array. IBM PL/I compilers use only the first method, and so would be dependent on the lower bounds being the same. Using the second method, the called routine can use different lower bounds from the caller, and still find the right array elements, though with added work. The rule seems to be that a caller should fill in all fields, even those that it doesn't actually need. It would seem that Fortran should use the second method, and PL/I the first. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 07:03:56 GMT From: "robin" Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.tx5ieelzhv4qyg@murphus... > I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compiler > inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with Fortran. The upper bound would also have to be set to extent-1, or extent - LB + 1 if LB were supplied by the caller and specified as the lower bound. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 07:03:56 GMT From: "robin" Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: "glen herrmannsfeldt" wrote in message news:5IednYgOFuL9VkDbnZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@comcast.com... > > It occurred to me while writing about pass by descriptor for > Fortran assumed shape arrays that there is a difference between > PL/I and Fortran. Since VMS standardizes the %descr calling > convention it would seem to support one or the other. > > PL/I passes the lower bounds for arrays, where Fortran does not. PL/I passes both upper and lower bounds, whereas Fortran passes only the extent. In PL/I the upper and lower bounds are accessible in the called routine via the functions HBOUND and LBOUND resp. > A called routine in Fortran addresses the array with lower bounds > of 1, or other lower bound specified in the called routine. Defaulting the lower bound to 1 was a design flaw. That's a return to the old days, when it was necessary in FORTRAN to pass even the upper bound! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:45:26 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:12:42 -0700, glen herrmannsfeldt = wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: > > (snip) > >> I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compi= ler >> inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with = >> Fortran. >> Isn't the descriptor defined in SDL? > > Now it gets interesting. The formula given to find the > address of an array element is (are): > > E =3D A0 + S1*I1 + . . . + Sn*In > =3D POINTER + S1*[I1 - L1] + . . . + Sn*[In - Ln] > > Note that there are two ways to do it. The first uses A0, the virtual= > origin (address of the array element with all subscripts zero, which m= ay > or may not actually be inside the array). The second uses POINTER whi= ch = > is the address of the actual first element of the array. > > IBM PL/I compilers use only the first method, and so would be dependen= t > on the lower bounds being the same. Using the second method, the call= ed > routine can use different lower bounds from the caller, and still find= = > the right array elements, though with added work. > > The rule seems to be that a caller should fill in all fields, even > those that it doesn't actually need. It would seem that Fortran shoul= d > use the second method, and PL/I the first. Following doesn't specifically answer your question, but gives some hint= s http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/USERS_GUIDE/6292pro_contents_002.html#toc= _chapter_11 The DESCRIPTOR builtin function http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_037.html#index_x= _1625 is used to pass arguments to non-PL/I routines and is common to VMS, so = I = think the lower bound must be included, it certainly is for our internal Dope = vectors. To sort out which method is used I think you need to write a small test = = and look at the map. > > -- glen > -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:15:33 GMT From: "robin" Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: "Ken Fairfield" wrote in message news:5k6o68F2d0oqU1@mid.individual.net... > As you well know, being an active participant in comp.lang.fortran, > assumed shape arrays are a very recent addition to Fortran (F90) > compared to the history of both Fortran and VMS. Prior to F90, > there were neither assumed shape arrays nor any intrinsics to > retrieve (declared) array bounds. And as is discussed periodically > in c.l.f, 1 is the only reasonable lower bound for array slices > and the like. In PL/I array slices have the dimensions of the parent array. There's no problem with that. That facility has been available for 40 years. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:15:34 GMT From: "robin" Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: "glen herrmannsfeldt" wrote in message news:Ke2dnZbuAYJxpEPbnZ2dnUVZ_ualnZ2d@comcast.com... > Tom Linden wrote: > > (snip) > > > I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compiler > > inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with Fortran. > > Isn't the descriptor defined in SDL? > > Now it gets interesting. The formula given to find the > address of an array element is (are): > > E = A0 + S1*I1 + . . . + Sn*In > = POINTER + S1*[I1 - L1] + . . . + Sn*[In - Ln] > > Note that there are two ways to do it. The first uses A0, the virtual > origin (address of the array element with all subscripts zero, which may > or may not actually be inside the array). The second uses POINTER which > is the address of the actual first element of the array. > > IBM PL/I compilers use only the first method, and so would be dependent > on the lower bounds being the same. If you are discussing the facility in general, references to one particular manufacturer are inappropriate. The lower bounds can be anything you want, by defining an array having the required lower bounds. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:12:50 -0400 From: Jeff Zeeb Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:12:42 -0700, glen herrmannsfeldt > wrote: > >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >> (snip) >> >>> I would _guess_ that it is the same descriptor, but the Fortran compiler >>> inserts 1 in the lower bound, at least that is how I did it with >>> Fortran. >>> Isn't the descriptor defined in SDL? >> >> >> Now it gets interesting. The formula given to find the >> address of an array element is (are): >> >> E = A0 + S1*I1 + . . . + Sn*In >> = POINTER + S1*[I1 - L1] + . . . + Sn*[In - Ln] >> >> Note that there are two ways to do it. The first uses A0, the virtual >> origin (address of the array element with all subscripts zero, which may >> or may not actually be inside the array). The second uses POINTER >> which is the address of the actual first element of the array. >> >> IBM PL/I compilers use only the first method, and so would be dependent >> on the lower bounds being the same. Using the second method, the called >> routine can use different lower bounds from the caller, and still >> find the right array elements, though with added work. >> >> The rule seems to be that a caller should fill in all fields, even >> those that it doesn't actually need. It would seem that Fortran should >> use the second method, and PL/I the first. > > > Following doesn't specifically answer your question, but gives some hints > http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/USERS_GUIDE/6292pro_contents_002.html#toc_chapter_11 > > The DESCRIPTOR builtin function > http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_037.html#index_x_1625 > > is used to pass arguments to non-PL/I routines and is common to VMS, so > I think the > lower bound must be included, it certainly is for our internal Dope > vectors. > As I recall, PL/I on VMS uses a class NCA descriptor for passing arrays. It has been a long time since I worked on the compilar, and I don't have a copy installed locally so I can't verify that. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:57:58 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: VMS %descr and PL/I Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: (snip) > Following doesn't specifically answer your question, but gives some hints > http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/USERS_GUIDE/6292pro_contents_002.html#toc_chapter_11 > The DESCRIPTOR builtin function > http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_037.html#index_x_1625 > is used to pass arguments to non-PL/I routines and is common to VMS, so > I think the > lower bound must be included, it certainly is for our internal Dope > vectors. > To sort out which method is used I think you need to write a small test > and look at > the map. My understanding from the previously indicated document is that the descriptor includes both addresses, and callers are supposed to fill in both. Callees can use either one. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 17:04:03 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <5k3lo4F1vlv9U1@mid.individual.net> Jeff Campbell wrote: > Ken Fairfield wrote: >> Jeff Campbell wrote: [big snip] >>> "They" missed: >>> >>> %SYSTEM-I-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels >>> >>> 8-) 8-) >> >> Well, yes and no. >> >> $ exit 2929 >> $ write sys$output f$message(2929) >> %SYSTEM-S-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels >> $ exit 2931 >> $ write sys$ooutput f$message(2931) >> %SYSTEM-I-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels >> $ >> >> I don't recall at the moment whether there's a way to force DCL, >> or more precisely, to force EXIT to display Success and Informational >> severity messages. [more snippage] > > Not on my system... The odd numbers are successful of course. > I'm missing the context here; *what* is "Not on my system..."? > Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.3-1 > > $ exit 2928 > %SYSTEM-W-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels > $ exit 2929 > $ exit 2930 > %SYSTEM-E-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels > $ exit 2931 > $ exit 2932 > %SYSTEM-F-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels > $ > $ exit 134002 > %DEBUG-E-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels > $ I think you've just demonstrated my remark about EXIT not displaying success or informational severity messages. Was there something else? I guess my initial remark in post you followed-up, in response to '"They" missed:', would better have been stated , "Well yes, and the -S- version." -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 07:46:28 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <5jqvmnFtrjmU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article <39033$46d76794$cef8887a$22000@teksavvy.com>, > JF Mezei writes: >> >> I was doing email before Windows was born. > > Just out of curiosity, when did VMS first have the ability to send > Email between different machines? When DECnet was put on it. This dates back at least to VMS 2.x, I first read the DECnet manuals that shipped with 2.2. It might have been earlier but we didn't do networking back in the shop where I used 1.x. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 07:50:46 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <8q6Ci.19183$Zk5.16187@newsfe23.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >> http://www.networkworld.com/reviews/2002/0204rev.html > > That's a copyright violation if I every heard one. DEC dropped the copyright on VMS sometime after they dubbed it Open and subsequent owners have let it go. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2007 07:52:37 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <5jsvlmF14tjjU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > OK, I worded that wrong. I knew tere was DECNET for the PDP-11. > When was DECNET first avalable for VMS and was there any other > inter-machine protocol before that? Before DECnet, there was RS-232. To be usefull you wanted something higher than RS-232 so somebody ported uucp and called it VAXnet. I had system running both DECnet and VAXnet, but I don't know if the VAXnet port was done before DECnet became available. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:53:42 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: On 09/04/07 07:52, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <5jsvlmF14tjjU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> OK, I worded that wrong. I knew tere was DECNET for the PDP-11. >> When was DECNET first avalable for VMS and was there any other >> inter-machine protocol before that? > > Before DECnet, there was RS-232. But RS-232 was/is only the h/w layer, no? > To be usefull you wanted something > higher than RS-232 so somebody ported uucp and called it VAXnet. I > had system running both DECnet and VAXnet, but I don't know if the > VAXnet port was done before DECnet became available. > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:20:41 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <46ddcc2c$0$25493$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 4-9-2007 22:53 Ron Johnson wrote... > > But RS-232 was/is only the h/w layer, no? Yeah, but I thought about Kermit too, layered on top of RS-232. Would that constitute a networking protocol (node-to-node). Kermit certainly ran on PDP-11's and on later VAxen. It could have predated DECnet-VAX on VMS 1.0 by a few weeks. Isn't this fun? /Wilm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:44:49 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: On 09/04/07 16:20, Wilm Boerhout wrote: > on 4-9-2007 22:53 Ron Johnson wrote... > >> >> But RS-232 was/is only the h/w layer, no? > > Yeah, but I thought about Kermit too, layered on top of RS-232. Would > that constitute a networking protocol (node-to-node). Kermit certainly > ran on PDP-11's and on later VAxen. It could have predated DECnet-VAX on > VMS 1.0 by a few weeks. Isn't this fun? Is a protocol an implementation or a specification? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:15:56 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <46DDD91C.6070100@comcast.net> Wilm Boerhout wrote: > on 4-9-2007 22:53 Ron Johnson wrote... > >> >> But RS-232 was/is only the h/w layer, no? > > > Yeah, but I thought about Kermit too, layered on top of RS-232. Would > that constitute a networking protocol (node-to-node). Kermit certainly > ran on PDP-11's and on later VAxen. It could have predated DECnet-VAX on > VMS 1.0 by a few weeks. Isn't this fun? > > /Wilm Real men use XMODEM! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:24:22 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: On 09/04/07 17:15, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Wilm Boerhout wrote: >> on 4-9-2007 22:53 Ron Johnson wrote... >> >>> >>> But RS-232 was/is only the h/w layer, no? >> >> >> Yeah, but I thought about Kermit too, layered on top of RS-232. Would >> that constitute a networking protocol (node-to-node). Kermit certainly >> ran on PDP-11's and on later VAxen. It could have predated DECnet-VAX >> on VMS 1.0 by a few weeks. Isn't this fun? >> >> /Wilm > > Real men use XMODEM! Hunhh. I gladly gave up on XMODEM right around the time I got a 1200 bps modem. 3 cheers for ZMODEM!!!! It's a heck of a lot more bandwidth efficient than FTP. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:04:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <400ed$46de0ec6$cef8887a$15398@TEKSAVVY.COM> OK, I was inspired by one of Mr Vaxman's posts, so most of the credit should go to him :-) (This would require Sue start a subsidiary that makes VMS soap. This way, she would be able to market "VMS" without any restrictions from HP corporate who prohibit marketing of the VMS operating system).