INFO-VAX Wed, 10 Oct 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 553 Contents: Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: Log file management ( 32768 version limit) Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 11:26:36 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: <1191954396.629989.307120@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 12:18 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a > message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. Some of the VAXes require a CTRL-P at the end of the shutdown in order to get the >>> prompt. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 11:32:14 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 11:26:36 -0700, FrankS wrote: > On Oct 9, 12:18 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a >> message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. > > Some of the VAXes require a CTRL-P at the end of the shutdown in order > to get the >>> prompt. > Tried that, but it was not responsive -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:23:15 -0400 From: "Jeff Goodwin" Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: <470bff33$0$32507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.tzxylgtthv4qyg@murphus... > On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:15:37 -0700, Bill Gunshannon > wrote: > >> In article <57177$470bb5ad$cef8887a$32601@teksavvy.com>, >> JF Mezei writes: >>> Tom Linden wrote: >>>> So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a >>>> message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. >>>> >>>> I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be >>>> correctly >>>> set >>> >>> That is normal behaviour for VAX. >>> >>> VAX machines normally have a hardware switch to tell them to either boot >>> automatically after power is applied to the machine or go to console. >>> And this switch greatly affects how you get into >>> mode. >> >> Ummmm...... Greatly dependant on what model VAX you are looking >> at. Some had no switches of any sort beyond the keyswitch used >> to power them on. >> >> bill >> > This is a 4000/90 and I have the S3 switch in up position > It's probably telling you this: SYSTEM SHUTDOWN COMPLETE, USE CONSOLE TO HALT SYSTEM The halt mechanism for the VAXstation 4000-90 is to press the halt button on the front of the system. As another mentioned, you can sometimes trick the system into halting by sending some type of misaligned character. The earlier Xyplex terminal servers did such at terminal server powerup. After the Xyplex powerup, one could find all their systems at the >>> prompt. -Jeff > > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMS > www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 17:55:47 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: In article <470bff33$0$32507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Jeff Goodwin" writes: > It's probably telling you this: > > SYSTEM SHUTDOWN COMPLETE, USE CONSOLE TO HALT SYSTEM > > The halt mechanism for the VAXstation 4000-90 is to press the halt button on > the front of the system. My recollection is that VAX/VMS has been programmed to require manual intervention all models, thus providing a consistent user experience. Asking for auto reboot is the only supported mechanism for avoiding manual intervention after running SHUTDOWN.COM. Power failure situations are handled differently. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:05:02 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:55:47 -0700, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <470bff33$0$32507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Jeff Goodwin" > writes: > >> It's probably telling you this: >> >> SYSTEM SHUTDOWN COMPLETE, USE CONSOLE TO HALT SYSTEM >> >> The halt mechanism for the VAXstation 4000-90 is to press the halt >> button on >> the front of the system. > > My recollection is that VAX/VMS has been programmed to require manual > intervention all models, thus providing a consistent user experience. > Asking for auto reboot is the only supported mechanism for avoiding > manual intervention after running SHUTDOWN.COM. > > Power failure situations are handled differently . Stephen, in private email suggested that if I can get the Xyplex to send a break character as Jeff also indicated it should get back to the SRM prompt. The whole purpose of being able to do this is to remotely control the operation -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:28:45 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: <470C2ACD.F18F3162@spam.comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > > I recently hooked up a Xyplex terminal server to the serioal ports of the > various nodes. I had to shutdown the VAX 7.3 4000/90 in order to expand a > shadow set. > > So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a > message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. > > I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be correctly > set > I see that its value is 00000001. Is this the correct setting? Is there > perhaps > another interfering variable? You may need to be able to send a BREAK signal (in leiu of the interrupt button) to get to the dead sargeant, and that may require the "alternate console", if the 4000/90 does that shtick. FWIW... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:38:47 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: <1191958727.769875.41060@v3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 8, 7:29 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > >On 10/07/07 15:57, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >>> In article <1191759362.467649.27...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,Sue > >>> writes: > > >>>> Dear Newsgroup, > > >>>> I am sitting at Heathrow airport waiting for my flight to be called > >>>> reflecting on the last two weeks in Europe. > > >>>> So I thought I would try and work with an English keyboard and try a= nd > >>>> give you an update. > > >>> Why does your keyboard change because you are in the UK? I've been to > >>> the UK on numerous occasions and my keyboard still behaves like it do= es > >>> in the states. > > >> Maybe becuseSuehas been in Sweden the last couple of days and got > >> used to our keyboard layout ? Then the UK layout *is* different... > > >He's attempting to make a joke about a keyboard magically changing > >functionality simply because it is transported from .se to .uk. > > I doubt thatSuereceived any pavlovian conditioning by using a Swedish > keyboard layout during her brief stay. I still don't understand how her > keyboard is any different for typing in the UK. There's little differ- > ence between the UK and US keyboards. =20 > > US:[2/@] UK:[2/"] > US:[3/#] UK:[3/=A3] > US:['/"] UK:['/@] > > Even with that small difference, (and I'm assumingSuewas using a Ween- > dose box) I doubt that Micro$oft is changing keyboard layouts by sensing > where in the world the user is situated. > > Now, if you want to discuss different keyboard layouts, a friend of mine > from Denmark spent a week with me in the spring. His keyboard has extra > characters in the place of some of the familiar punctuation on the US/UK > keyboards. It still has a QWERTYUIOP layout. =20 > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)C= OM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Obviously, I was not using my laptop but the one available for public use. It is different and has a different layout. For example the left shift key is not in the same location and is / key. I just wanted to send a quick note and did not think that would be the point of issue sue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:01:08 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: <86ROi.416$ul3.5@newsfe12.lga> In article <1191958727.769875.41060@v3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Sue writes: {...snip...} >Obviously, I was not using my laptop but the one available for public >use. It is different and has a different layout. For example the >left shift key is not in the same location and is / key. I just >wanted to send a quick note and did not think that would be the point >of issue HP doesn't provide you with a laptop? I would be terrified/horrified to type on any publicly accessible computer, especially those running Micro$haft Weendoze as I have seen in the internet cafes in Europe. Even if your username/password was only to access Google to post to comp.os.vms. How many people do you think now know your Google Groups access info? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:49:40 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: <66365$470c0585$cef8887a$3903@TEKSAVVY.COM> Sue wrote: > Obviously, I was not using my laptop but the one available for public > use. It is different and has a different layout. For example the > left shift key is not in the same location and is / key. Sue, admit it, you had too many beers in Germany and you were still under the effect and had problems finding keys on a keyboard, *any* keyboard :-) :-) It need not be more complicated than that :-) BTW Sue, do modern British keyboards have easy access to the Euro sign ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:11:42 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: Hi Tom, > and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 days. Well, just stop turning up :-) > Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the > Theresienwiese I lived in Neuhausen, around the back from the Augustiner keller, and then on Dietlinden Strasse just at the top of the Englishergarten/Sea Haus and was quite happy with the regular civilized beer gardens and never too keen on booking a table or pushing through the masses (no pun intended :-) especially those Kiwis/Aussies who continually let the side down and used to brag about drinking 10litres in a session! I naturally assumed you'd simply drown after 10 litres and it was an idle boast, until I managed to drink seven in 7 hours (and the first 3 without going to the loo!) - I had no trouble sleeping :-) I even bought one of those silly hats and wore it for about 30 secs on the rollercoaster :-( What was this year's recurring song? (I recall we had the Macarana one year (and "living next door to Alice" for some reason?)) Cheers Richard Maher PS. Was it you who used Opera? "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.tzxva4xahv4qyg@murphus... > On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:06:07 -0700, Michael Unger > wrote: > > > On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: > > > >> [...] > >> > >> p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) > > > > They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK 16 days > > each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I haven't > > been there ... > > > > Michael > > > > Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the > Theresienwiese > and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 days. > > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMS > www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:37:09 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Tom, > >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 days. > > Well, just stop turning up :-) > >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the >> Theresienwiese > > I lived in Neuhausen, around the back from the Augustiner keller, and > then > on Dietlinden Strasse just at the top of the Englishergarten/Sea Haus and > was quite happy with the regular civilized beer gardens and never too > keen > on booking a table or pushing through the masses (no pun intended :-) > especially those Kiwis/Aussies who continually let the side down and > used to > brag about drinking 10litres in a session! I naturally assumed you'd > simply > drown after 10 litres and it was an idle boast, until I managed to drink > seven in 7 hours (and the first 3 without going to the loo!) - I had no > trouble sleeping :-) > > I even bought one of those silly hats and wore it for about 30 secs on > the > rollercoaster :-( > > What was this year's recurring song? (I recall we had the Macarana one > year > (and "living next door to Alice" for some reason?)) > > Cheers Richard Maher > > PS. Was it you who used Opera? Aye. > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.tzxva4xahv4qyg@murphus... >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:06:07 -0700, Michael Unger >> wrote: >> >> > On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: >> > >> >> [...] >> >> >> >> p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) >> > >> > They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK 16 >> days >> > each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I haven't >> > been there ... >> > >> > Michael >> > >> >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the >> Theresienwiese >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 days. >> >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMS >> www.kednos.com > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:32:27 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Log file management ( 32768 version limit) Message-ID: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > It's probably also a good idea to avoid having two version shifters >running at the same time. > It's probably also a good idea to write the version shifter so that >it can deal with new (high) file versions being created while it's >shifting. And/or being able to cope with gaps in the version numbers. I just posted a version shifter a few moments ago. It doesn't (explicitly) deal with new versions being created when running or multiple copies of the shifter running, but does handle gaps. > (Some day, >SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$FTP]TCPIP$FTP_RUN.LOG will probably overflow, too, >for example. And how many others? Any outside of TCPIP? Seems >unlikely in a generally well designed OS.) NETSERVER.LOG when using DECnet heavily often overflows. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 23:12:47 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: > Well, maybe. > It's also the way to get *new/young* developers to write > software for VMS. I somehow doubt that. Where should these young developers come from ? VMS is extinct in academia for well over a decade. Moreover, if the PC environment is as cool as you describe, they most probably would develop for their PC. What would be the incentive to code for VMS ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:35:56 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Message-ID: <0vSOi.10821$ZA.7048@newsb.telia.net> Michael Kraemer wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: > >> Well, maybe. >> It's also the way to get *new/young* developers to write >> software for VMS. > > I somehow doubt that. Where should these young developers come from ? > VMS is extinct in academia for well over a decade. > Moreover, if the PC environment is as cool as you describe, > they most probably would develop for their PC. > What would be the incentive to code for VMS ? > As a "coder" you code for whatever system your employer cares to run/use, not ? Not on what you select yourself. Anyway, I do not see what the problem is if I can get a nicer IDE with all the coding tools for my COBOL coding then a VT screen and EDT/TPU/LSE. What *exactly* is the problem with using a PC (or any of the other supported platforms) for (e.g.) NetBeans ? It's just a tool I use, not the platform where I run the apps in "prod"... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:18:16 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191957496.841321.199690@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 1:48 am, "Rudolf Wingert" wrote: > Hello, > > I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's > the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and > times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should > do, what we can do to prevent the earth. > AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians > should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can > do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. > Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to > stop the global warming. > > Best regards Rudolf Wingert well, maybe we could send a spaceship full of dry ice into the sun? You cannot cool the sun ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:38:54 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > On Oct 9, 8:01 am, AEF wrote: >> On Oct 9, 7:54 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Oct 8, 11:44 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >>>> On 10/08/07 09:04, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> On Oct 7, 11:02 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: >>>>>> On Oct 4, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >>>>>>> Question: >>>>>>> In my mind, a religious person has always been a compassionate person >>>>>>> willing to share wealth, help others, live a good honest life and make >>>>>>> sure to protect god's creations (wether humans or animals or the planet). >>>>>>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with >>>>>>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill >>>>>>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping >>>>>>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? >>>>>>> Or is it a case of religious persons in the USA supporting one party >>>>>>> that is 99% against what they believe in just because the agree with the >>>>>>> remaining 1% (abortion) ? >>>>>> True Christians are non-violent evangelists but many North American >>>>>> Christians are obsessed with escatology and other end-time nonsense. >>>>>> They think it is OK to destroy the Earth because Christ will return >>>>>> soon and make everything right. >>>>> you been following revelation lately? >>>>> 1. when Israel becomes a nation again, the time of the >>>>> gentiles will be fulfilled ... 1948 >>>> It (Christ's Return) was supposed to happen within 1 generation of >>>> 1948. That's 25-30 years. >>>> It's been 60. >>>>> 2. He will gather the jews from the all over the world back, >>>>> and from the land of the north (Moscow, Russia) ... 1988 >>>>> the Berlin wall falls as well as communism and since then >>>>> over 2 million jews have left for Israel ... >>>> Well, ok. You're right about that one. >>>>> 3. wars and rumors of wars ... world war I, II, korean, vietnam, >>>>> Iraq 1, Iraq 2, plus many others smaller ones ... Iran? >>>>> Israel and Syria? >>>> Humans have been fighting wars since the beginning of civilization. >>>>> 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... >>>> I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even >>>> from classical Greece. >>>>> 5. earthquakes in divers places ... happening and increasing ... >>>> Earthquakes where people go SCUBA swimming? Oh, my! >>>> Earthquakes along fault zones? Shocking! >>>> Recording more earthquakes because we've got more (and more >>>> sensitive) seismographs spread across the world? Amazing! >>>>> 6. old roman empire reforms ... EU >>>> Somehow, I don't see Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libia, Egypt, >>>> Israel, Jordan and Syria joining the EU. >>>>> 7. a failing away from the church ... happening >>>> And a damned good thing, too. >>>>> when you see these signs, look up, for your redemption is near ... >>>>> Daniel, Isaiah and other prophecies in the bible confirm >>>>> revelation ... >>>> Paul expected the return 1,940 years ago. >>>> -- >>>> Ron Johnson, Jr. >>>> Jefferson LA USA >>>> Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >>>> Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> a falling away from the church is NOT good! >>> the result ... increased crime, divorce, drugs, infanticide >>> (abortion) ... >>> in the 50s and 60s you leave your doors unlocked or windows open >>> and not worry, today, forget it ... >>> the world because of abandoning Gods laws is going down >>> the toilet ... >> I've heard that Europeans have fallen away from the church more than >> Americans. Is crime any higher there than in the USA? (You are talking >> about the USA, right?) >> >> AEF- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > how about abortion, fornification, adultry in Europe? Yes it is terrible here. The abortion figures in The Netherlands are less than half of those of the US (in abortions per 1000 women). The rest of Europe is higher, more comparible to the US. Fornification? I don't know. I can't remember reading about such accusations against high ranking European religious and political leaders. I do remember reading about such accusations against US evangelical leaders and republican leaders, or am I mistaken? Adultry? Why do you think it is worse in Europe? 1 out of 3 marriages in the Netherlands ends in a divorce. In 1 out of 3 of those divorces adultry is named as the reason. How are the US figures? > > Not keeping the sabbath day is a sin, In many European countries all shops are closed on Sundays, that part of keeping the Sabbath is more preserved in Europe most likely. > and yes Europe > has only an estimated 10% of people attending church > which is far worse than the US ... > I have never noticed any correlation between going to church and living according to the teachings of Christ. On the contrary, those who the most loudly praise the name of the Lord usually do not live according to his teachings, at least not in reality. The only thing they want to do is to play God by proxy. They take the bible in their hands, and tell other people how to live, what to do and what not to do. And what they enjoy most, to condemn people who do not follow their teachings. > so that means Europe is spiritually dead ... > Well, maybe according to your standards. At least we are not brain dead :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:02:53 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191970973.792590.287190@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 10:07 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 10/09/07 06:25, AEF wrote: > > > On Oct 8, 11:57 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 10/08/07 08:10, Bob Koehler wrote: > > >>> In article , JF Mezei writes: > >>>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with > >>>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill > >>>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping > >>>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > > > Ah, extreme prejudice against America still further even also yet > > again, eh? Everyone else is a saint, eh? > > What????? I'm talking about JF's obnoxious anti-Americanism. Or you don't get the still further... stuff? Imagine two people having a friendly debate. Person 1 says, "Such and such and so and so". Person 2 says, "but blah blah blah....". Person 1 replies, "but then, blow blow blow...." Two then counters with, "but then again, blee blee blee...." OK -- how to continue? Well, during high school when I worked at a gas station I was bored and solved the puzzle. Here's the full extent of how it goes: but but then but then again but then yet again but then still yet again but then still further yet again but then still further even yet again but then still further even also yet again That's as far as I could go. Considering it as a poem, I asked a co- worker in the mid 90's what the next line would be and he suggested, "However". OK, in this context I couldn't use the "but then" part, but the rest of it applies. Since JF is a blatant, frequent anti-American bigot, I used the longest possible version. In retrospect perhaps I should have put it in parentheses and attached a very large exponent! There you go. (Glad you asked, right?) [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:53:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: On 10/09/07 14:18, ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > On Oct 9, 1:48 am, "Rudolf Wingert" wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's >> the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and >> times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should >> do, what we can do to prevent the earth. >> AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians >> should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can >> do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. >> Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to >> stop the global warming. >> >> Best regards Rudolf Wingert > > well, maybe we could send a spaceship full of dry ice > into the sun? > > You cannot cool the sun ... Or have Planet Express Ship grab a huge chunk of ice from Haley's comet and drop it in the ocean. Instant global non-worming! -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:24:52 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: <07100914245200_214002A2@antinode.org> From: JF Mezei > SMTP_RECV_MAIL: getpeername failed: vaxc$errno: %SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS, maximum netwo > rk logical links exceeded > %SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS, maximum network logical links exceeded I see these fairly frequently, too, using: HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 6 on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2 They can appear on a fairly idle system, so I assume that the error code/message is intended to be misleading. NSLOOKUP on the logged SYS$REM_NODE IP address seems to work. HELP /MESSAGE NOLINKS and the TCPIP Sockets API and System Services Programming documentation haven't done anything to reduce my bewilderment. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:22:38 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >Investigating while I wasn't getting emails from a specific store, I >first found that my TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG log files were at version >32767 ... :-( so no new logfiles were being created (but I am still >receiving new mail though , interesting development !) $! REVERSION.COM - Renames the versions of a file to be sequential starting $! at version ;1. Useful to prevent frequently created log files, etc. from $! reaching version ;32767, at which point no more versions can be created. $! To use: $ PURGE/KEEP=n file.ext (suggested), then $ @REVERSION file.ext $! After this, the versions of the file are numbered ;1, ;2, ... ;n. $! Author: Michael Moroney Aug. 2007 $!-------------------------------------------------------------------------- $ if p1.eqs."" then goto usage ! No null filenames $ if f$locate(";",p1) .ne. f$length(p1) then goto usage ! No versions $ file = p1 + ";" ! Base filename $ f1 = f$search(file) $ if f1 .eqs. "" then goto fnf ! Quit if nonexistent $ f2 = f$search(file + "-0") $ v1 = f$integer(f$parse(f1,,,"version")-";") ! v1 = highest version $ v2 = f$integer(f$parse(f2,,,"version")-";") ! v2 = lowest version $ k = v1-v2+1 ! Max. # of files $ i = 1 ! i=new version $ j = v2 ! j=old version $loop: $ g1 = f$search(file+f$string(j)) $ if g1 .eqs. "" then goto skip1 ! ignore any gaps $ if i .eq. j then goto skip2 ! skip no-op rename $ g2 = ";" + f$string(i) $ rename/nolog 'g1 'g2 ! rename one file $skip2: $ i = i+1 ! increment new vers. $skip1: $ j = j+1 ! increment old vers. $ k = k-1 $ if k .gt. 0 then goto loop ! loop til done $ exit $usage: $ write sys$output "@REVERSION filename.ext (no versions or wildcards)" $ exit %x28 $fnf: $ exit %x18292 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:55:51 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: Michael Moroney wrote: > JF Mezei writes: > >> Investigating while I wasn't getting emails from a specific store, I >> first found that my TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG log files were at version >> 32767 ... :-( so no new logfiles were being created (but I am still >> receiving new mail though , interesting development !) > > $! REVERSION.COM - Renames the versions of a file to be sequential starting > $! at version ;1. Useful to prevent frequently created log files, etc. from > $! reaching version ;32767, at which point no more versions can be created. > $! To use: $ PURGE/KEEP=n file.ext (suggested), then $ @REVERSION file.ext > $! After this, the versions of the file are numbered ;1, ;2, ... ;n. > $! Author: Michael Moroney Aug. 2007 > $!-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > $ if p1.eqs."" then goto usage ! No null filenames > $ if f$locate(";",p1) .ne. f$length(p1) then goto usage ! No versions > $ file = p1 + ";" ! Base filename > $ f1 = f$search(file) > $ if f1 .eqs. "" then goto fnf ! Quit if nonexistent > $ f2 = f$search(file + "-0") > $ v1 = f$integer(f$parse(f1,,,"version")-";") ! v1 = highest version > $ v2 = f$integer(f$parse(f2,,,"version")-";") ! v2 = lowest version > $ k = v1-v2+1 ! Max. # of files > $ i = 1 ! i=new version > $ j = v2 ! j=old version > $loop: > $ g1 = f$search(file+f$string(j)) > $ if g1 .eqs. "" then goto skip1 ! ignore any gaps > $ if i .eq. j then goto skip2 ! skip no-op rename > $ g2 = ";" + f$string(i) > $ rename/nolog 'g1 'g2 ! rename one file > $skip2: > $ i = i+1 ! increment new vers. > $skip1: > $ j = j+1 ! increment old vers. > $ k = k-1 > $ if k .gt. 0 then goto loop ! loop til done > $ exit > $usage: > $ write sys$output "@REVERSION filename.ext (no versions or wildcards)" > $ exit %x28 > $fnf: > $ exit %x18292 I do (for a file named FILE.LOG) : $ rename FILE.LOG.* FILE.TMP.0 $ rename FILE.TMP.* FILE.LOG.0 The result is FILE.LOG's starting on ;1. The app that create FILE.LOG should probably be stalled/blocked during the rename's. Now, it's not clear top me what the DCL script above does that my two commands doesn't. I'm sure I must be missing something... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: 09 Oct 2007 18:47:22 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > That's in reference to VMS implementations of TCP/IP, right? -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:31:02 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: <07100918310249_214002A2@antinode.org> From: Rich Alderson > > > > That's in reference to VMS implementations of TCP/IP, right? Right. As in "HELP TCPIP". (Please!) As a non-paying parasite, I sometimes feel bad about griping so much about TCPIP. Then I use it some more, and that feeling fades. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:19:31 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <470BC633.2040902@comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 06:07:30 -0700, Bob Gezelter > wrote: > >> On Oct 9, 8:53 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >>> In article <470AE3ED.D2421...@spam.comcast.net>, >>> David J Dachtera writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> > Mike wrote: >>> >>> >> We have a bunch of in-house applications written in C, running on >>> >> Alpha OpenVMS V8.3. These applications use the system service sys >>> >> $trnlnm to read group logicals, which contain options controlling >>> >> their behaviour (e.g. logging level verbosity). The logicals can be >>> >> changed on the command line by privileged users. >>> >>> >> We are looking to port some of these applications to Solaris 10, and >>> >> as a UNIX novice, I am struggling to find something equivalent in >>> >> Solaris to the OpenVMS group logicals. Can anyone here suggest an >>> >> equivalent? >>> >> The protected nature of the group logical name table is one of the >> details that is not available on *IX. > > > I think it is doable, the question is wht hasn't it been done? Perhaps because the Unix paradigm doesn't require logical names! Or perhaps because it would require a complete redesign of the O/S to make logical names usable and useful. Unix is NOT VMS and VMS is NOT Unix. VMS does some things better and Unix does some things better. I use both and Windoze too. I don't really miss logical names in either Unix or Windoze. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:48:39 +0200 From: Gilles Pion Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: Ref: de Bob Harris >In article ><1191873389.045301.188670@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, > Mike wrote: > > >You could use Symbolic Links. The contents of the link does not >need to actually be a file path. As strange as it can appear at first glance, I totally agree to this solution : symbolic links are unix objects conceptually closest to VMS logicals names. You could use "readlink" as a more or less equivalent of "$trnlnm", "symlink" will be use to replace $crelnm, and you may think of logical name tables in term of directories ( $crelnt -> mkdir). The unix file protection of the directory will be used to provide groupwide access control. Please note however that the symetry is *far* from being complete, but I'm pretty sure that you will be able to convert your code by looking in this direction. -- Gilles "Cool Raoul" - http://coolraoul.cvp-net.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 18:52:33 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <5n20vhFfrg1cU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Gilles Pion writes: > Ref: de Bob Harris > >>In article >><1191873389.045301.188670@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, >> Mike wrote: >> >> >>You could use Symbolic Links. The contents of the link does not >>need to actually be a file path. > > As strange as it can appear at first glance, I totally agree to this solution : > symbolic links are unix objects conceptually closest to VMS logicals names. > Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:01:35 +0200 From: Gilles Pion Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <7rjng3l5lvsv7pegfq2r5d6lqoaro22tc3@4ax.com> Ref: <5n20vhFfrg1cU1@mid.individual.net> de bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) > >Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm >and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! The question was about "porting" existing software, not about "writing" new code. I was just trying to help... -- Gilles "Cool Raoul" - http://coolraoul.cvp-net.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 19:26:40 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <5n22vgFfqqhjU1@mid.individual.net> In article <7rjng3l5lvsv7pegfq2r5d6lqoaro22tc3@4ax.com>, Gilles Pion writes: > Ref: <5n20vhFfrg1cU1@mid.individual.net> de bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) >> >>Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm >>and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! > > The question was about "porting" existing software, not about "writing" new > code. > I was just trying to help... Porting certainly doesn't mean writing bad software, does it? When you twist the usage of a concept in order to try to make it look/work like something it is not, that is just plain bad programming. Of course, this would allow for people to later come back and point at it as an example of just how bad Unix programming is. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:40:06 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <488d3$470be727$cef8887a$11882@TEKSAVVY.COM> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm > and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! Does Unix have the concept of "group" to which a username belongs ? If so, then asking about structuring an application so that each group of users has a shared configuration is a very valid question since it would not be "foreign" to Unix. And this wouldn't be so much a Unix vs VMS question, it would be a experienced system manager/designer versus an inexperienced one. The inexperienced one will just write apps where every user has its own config (or worse, one config for the whole system as is/was common for Windows). The experienced one will know to try to design the application so that configs can be done at the user, group and/or system wide levels. I think that Microsoft's whole "registry" thing was an attempt at allowing such functionality. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 23:59:03 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <5n2iu7Fei1feU1@mid.individual.net> In article <488d3$470be727$cef8887a$11882@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm >> and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! > > > Does Unix have the concept of "group" to which a username belongs ? Yes and no. > > If so, then asking about structuring an application so that each group > of users has a shared configuration is a very valid question since it > would not be "foreign" to Unix. Actually, they were once again grousing about Unix not having VMS style logicals. Read my lips. We admit it. Unix does not have VMS style logicals or anything even close. Now, read my lips again. That has never stopped anyone from doing on Unix anything meaningful that you do on VMS using logicals. Everybody happy now. > > And this wouldn't be so much a Unix vs VMS question, it would be a > experienced system manager/designer versus an inexperienced one. The > inexperienced one will just write apps where every user has its own > config (or worse, one config for the whole system as is/was common for > Windows). The experienced one will know to try to design the application > so that configs can be done at the user, group and/or system wide levels. Unix has a common way to handle configs that are allowed to change during the operation of a continuously running process. Unix has a way to handle controlling access to the config file. It does not involve anything like VMS logicals. "porting" a program involves more than just hacking a program from on OS so that it runs (no matter how badly) on another OS. > > I think that Microsoft's whole "registry" thing was an attempt at > allowing such functionality. I have no idea what MS was thinking when they designed their registry system and frankly, I have no intention of finding out. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:51:05 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <470C21F9.4000501@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm >> and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! > > > > Does Unix have the concept of "group" to which a username belongs ? > Yes, it does. But, unlike VMS, a user can be a member of more than one group! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 17:56:01 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <1191977761.678860.289480@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 7:59 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <488d3$470be727$cef8887a$11...@teksavvy.com>, > JF Mezei writes: > > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm > >> and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! > > > Does Unix have the concept of "group" to which a username belongs ? > > Yes and no. > > > > > If so, then asking about structuring an application so that each group > > of users has a shared configuration is a very valid question since it > > would not be "foreign" to Unix. > > Actually, they were once again grousing about Unix not having VMS > style logicals. > > Read my lips. We admit it. Unix does not have VMS style logicals or > anything even close. Now, read my lips again. That has never stopped > anyone from doing on Unix anything meaningful that you do on VMS using > logicals. Everybody happy now. > > > > > And this wouldn't be so much a Unix vs VMS question, it would be a > > experienced system manager/designer versus an inexperienced one. The > > inexperienced one will just write apps where every user has its own > > config (or worse, one config for the whole system as is/was common for > > Windows). The experienced one will know to try to design the application > > so that configs can be done at the user, group and/or system wide levels. > > Unix has a common way to handle configs that are allowed to change > during the operation of a continuously running process. Unix has > a way to handle controlling access to the config file. It does not > involve anything like VMS logicals. "porting" a program involves > more than just hacking a program from on OS so that it runs (no matter > how badly) on another OS. > > > > > I think that Microsoft's whole "registry" thing was an attempt at > > allowing such functionality. > > I have no idea what MS was thinking when they designed their registry > system and frankly, I have no intention of finding out. Well, for those who do, I was told that it was because Windows system managers were tired of maintaining huge numbers of .ini files. I'll check with the Windows group at work tomorrow. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:04:42 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: On 10/09/07 19:51, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>> Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS >>> paradigm >>> and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! >> >> >> >> Does Unix have the concept of "group" to which a username belongs ? >> > Yes, it does. But, unlike VMS, a user can be a member of more than one > group! Identifiers seem to me to be the VMS analogy to Unix groups. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:46:24 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Message-ID: Hi Tom, > Aye. Then if you get a chance could you please try accessing the demo Queue Lookup application and let me know how far it gets before barfing? For ol' times' sake :-) I was happy to rely on the arrogance of market share between IE and Firefox, but now with Safari working, I'm curious to see how far the portability goes. Cheers Richard Maher "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.tzyej70rhv4qyg@murphus.linden... > On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Maher > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 days. > > > > Well, just stop turning up :-) > > > >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the > >> Theresienwiese > > > > I lived in Neuhausen, around the back from the Augustiner keller, and > > then > > on Dietlinden Strasse just at the top of the Englishergarten/Sea Haus and > > was quite happy with the regular civilized beer gardens and never too > > keen > > on booking a table or pushing through the masses (no pun intended :-) > > especially those Kiwis/Aussies who continually let the side down and > > used to > > brag about drinking 10litres in a session! I naturally assumed you'd > > simply > > drown after 10 litres and it was an idle boast, until I managed to drink > > seven in 7 hours (and the first 3 without going to the loo!) - I had no > > trouble sleeping :-) > > > > I even bought one of those silly hats and wore it for about 30 secs on > > the > > rollercoaster :-( > > > > What was this year's recurring song? (I recall we had the Macarana one > > year > > (and "living next door to Alice" for some reason?)) > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > PS. Was it you who used Opera? > > Aye. > > > > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > > news:op.tzxva4xahv4qyg@murphus... > >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:06:07 -0700, Michael Unger > >> wrote: > >> > >> > On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: > >> > > >> >> [...] > >> >> > >> >> p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) > >> > > >> > They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK 16 > >> days > >> > each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I haven't > >> > been there ... > >> > > >> > Michael > >> > > >> > >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the > >> Theresienwiese > >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 days. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> PL/I for OpenVMS > >> www.kednos.com > > > > > > > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMS > www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:33:05 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:46:24 -0700, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Tom, > >> Aye. > > Then if you get a chance could you please try accessing the demo Queue > Lookup application and let me know how far it gets before barfing? For > ol' > times' sake :-) I was happy to rely on the arrogance of market share > between IE and Firefox, but now with Safari working, I'm curious to see > how > far the portability goes. Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look > > Cheers Richard Maher > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.tzyej70rhv4qyg@murphus.linden... >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Maher >> wrote: >> >> > Hi Tom, >> > >> >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 >> days. >> > >> > Well, just stop turning up :-) >> > >> >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the >> >> Theresienwiese >> > >> > I lived in Neuhausen, around the back from the Augustiner keller, and >> > then >> > on Dietlinden Strasse just at the top of the Englishergarten/Sea Haus > and >> > was quite happy with the regular civilized beer gardens and never too >> > keen >> > on booking a table or pushing through the masses (no pun intended :-) >> > especially those Kiwis/Aussies who continually let the side down and >> > used to >> > brag about drinking 10litres in a session! I naturally assumed you'd >> > simply >> > drown after 10 litres and it was an idle boast, until I managed to >> drink >> > seven in 7 hours (and the first 3 without going to the loo!) - I had >> no >> > trouble sleeping :-) >> > >> > I even bought one of those silly hats and wore it for about 30 secs on >> > the >> > rollercoaster :-( >> > >> > What was this year's recurring song? (I recall we had the Macarana one >> > year >> > (and "living next door to Alice" for some reason?)) >> > >> > Cheers Richard Maher >> > >> > PS. Was it you who used Opera? >> >> Aye. >> >> > >> > "Tom Linden" wrote in message >> > news:op.tzxva4xahv4qyg@murphus... >> >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:06:07 -0700, Michael Unger >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> [...] >> >> >> >> >> >> p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) >> >> > >> >> > They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK 16 >> >> days >> >> > each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I > haven't >> >> > been there ... >> >> > >> >> > Michael >> >> > >> >> >> >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the >> >> Theresienwiese >> >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 >> days. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> PL/I for OpenVMS >> >> www.kednos.com >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMS >> www.kednos.com > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.553 ************************