INFO-VAX Fri, 12 Oct 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 557 Contents: Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly missing objects as fun Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly missing objects as fun Canadians flee Canadian socialized Hillary type healthcare for U.S. Re: Canadians flee Canadian socialized Hillary type healthcare for U.S. Re: COV activity WAS Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: COV activity WAS Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days lowercase letter can not display correctly. Re: lowercase letter can not display correctly. Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly mis Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: We'll always have Munich Re: We'll always have Munich Re: We'll always have Munich Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:02:25 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly missing objects as fun Message-ID: <1192136545.895675.276590@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Oct 11, 2:45 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > Why on one machine I can't LIST FAL, and on another I can't LIST TASK? > > And why all the extra blank lines? I guess it has something to do with > > the different User Id's, but why should that cause LIST to not list? > > Thanks! > > What comes back from LIST KNOWN OBJECTS and SHOW KNOWN OBJECTS on each node? SHOW KNOWN OBJECTS shows both TASK and FAL on both nodes. LIST KNOWN OBJECTS does not show TASK on one node and does not show FAL on the other. On yet another node I have, FAL is missing from the LIST output. I even restarted DECnet on this node and it made ZEE-row difference. See below (output obtained AFTER the DECnet restart): $ NCP NCP>SHOW KNOWN OBJ Known Object Volatile Summary as of 11-OCT-2007 16:57:13 Object Number File/PID User Id Password $IPCACP 0 00000086 $MOM 0 $NICONFIG 0 TASK 0 ILLEGAL FAL 17 FAL.EXE FAL$SERVER HLD 18 NML 19 NML.EXE NML$SERVER REMACP 23 000001B7 MIRROR 25 EVL 26 000001B6 MAIL 27 MAIL_SERVER.EXE MAIL$SERVER PHONE 29 PHONE.EXE CTERM 42 000001B7 VPM 51 VPM.EXE DTR 63 NCP>LIST KNOWN OBJ Known Object Permanent Summary as of 11-OCT-2007 16:57:17 Object = TASK Number = 0 User id = ILLEGAL Password = no access rights Object = MAIL Number = 27 User id = MAIL$SERVER Password = no access rights Object = NML Number = 19 User id = NML$SERVER Password = no access rights NCP> NCP > can't LIST entries that don't exist, and the executor won't arbitrarily define > objects that are not found in the non-volatile database. So where does FAL in the SHOW output above come from? > > As Bob G. mentioned, they may have been configured differently at some point. > See HELP DEFINE OBJECT for the syntax to put in entries you want but don't have > - no magic about it. Never claimed there was anything magic about it. I'm just trying to make sense of it and learn better how it works. > > -- > David J Dachtera AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:45:19 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly missing objects as fun Message-ID: <470E6F3F.935ED71B@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > Why on one machine I can't LIST FAL, and on another I can't LIST TASK? > And why all the extra blank lines? I guess it has something to do with > the different User Id's, but why should that cause LIST to not list? > Thanks! What comes back from LIST KNOWN OBJECTS and SHOW KNOWN OBJECTS on each node? NCP can't LIST entries that don't exist, and the executor won't arbitrarily define objects that are not found in the non-volatile database. As Bob G. mentioned, they may have been configured differently at some point. See HELP DEFINE OBJECT for the syntax to put in entries you want but don't have - no magic about it. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:39:39 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Canadians flee Canadian socialized Hillary type healthcare for U.S. Message-ID: <1192145979.344608.146830@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> this is what Hillary has in store for you ... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C300939%2C00.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 2007 22:06:23 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Canadians flee Canadian socialized Hillary type healthcare for U.S. Message-ID: In article <1192145979.344608.146830@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > this is what Hillary has in store for you ... Please not post URLs without explaining the relevance to VMS. Please do not post off-topic URLs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:43:42 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: COV activity WAS Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > No idea! I'm assuming that somebody is in charge and that there is some > system to it all. There is a group of people who are "loosely" in charge of the big 8. For instance a year or two ago, they started to look at moderated newsgroups and flagged a list of totally inactive ones (or ones without any non-spam activity) which had been inactive for some time. They sent out a call for anyone interested in taking over such groups. In my case, there was an aviation newsgroup that had been abandonned without notice by the former moderators so there had never been a formal way to get a totally new bunch of moderators in until this happened. Our group was the first to be "reanimated" this way. COV is certaintly not even close to being in that basket. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:13:28 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COV activity WAS Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: On 10/11/07 08:31, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > "Tom Linden" writes: >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:21:42 -0700, Richard B. Gilbert >> wrote: >> >>> No, it means that when the powers that be realize that 99.44% of the >>> traffic on c.o.v is off topic, they will shut the group down. >> Just who are the powers? > > A self designated cabal who somehow assumed control over USENET. There Is No Cabal. > At least, they think so. Any News Admin worth his salt would > know to ignore them. But then, USENET (like Email) ain't what > it used to be!! > > bill > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:41:25 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: <1192138885.004332.317580@v3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 8, 10:58 am, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Oct 7, 8:16 am,Sue wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Newsgroup, > > > I am sitting at Heathrow airport waiting for my flight to be called > > reflecting on the last two weeks in Europe. > > > So I thought I would try and work with an English keyboard and try and > > give you an update. > > > Every country has their own keyboard so its a series of mistakes for > > me but itdoes provide yet another excuse for bad spelling. \its funny > > but every year I think that the TUD's will not get better and they do. > > I have also noticed that VMS culture is very similar in every country > > even though there are small differences. I really wish that you had a > > chance to all meet each other it would be so exciting. We were in > > Germany, Netherlands and Sweden and were pretty much full in each > > location. > > > If I am honest the team was excellent from HP and then partners in > > Germany Guy P was there from Bruden as well as Andre and then in > > \netherlands Colin B was there and then in Sweden Guy was back so > > there was a star studded speaker list not to mention blades > > sessions. > > > We also went to a college in Germany where Andy G spoke there were > > 50-60 people including 10 customers, he spoke for 2 or so hours and > > they loved what he said. We have a VMS user there who worked with the > > user group to coordinate it was awesome. > > > Gotta go sorry, you would have loved it. > >sue > > Sue. This Canadian of German decent is glad to hear that you're still > promoting OpenVMS on the continent that produced Linux. Good luck to > you and your team. > > p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.htmlhttp://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - They were celebrating Oktoberfest and we actually were able to still draw a few folks away from Munich to come celebrate VMS 30th Anniversary with us. There sure are a lot of brilliant folks involved in VMS around the world. With the TUD's we get to meet customers, developers and partners and all the countries had a good cross section of all three. I am always amazed that the folks are so open to us as individuals. Its funny how you can be on the road, visit three countries but feel like you have family in all of them. You know what is surprising after all this time I still run into customers that I did not know about. All of the TUD's were excellent, more young people than prior years. Oh and here is a cool thing in Sweden they started a VMS SIG. On the Wed night before the TUD they had their first meeting so the team went to the first kickoff meeting. Then one of the partners hosted a dinner (Seagull software) for the SIG. So we are all sitting in this room by now there is about 30 or so VMS folks, some are from the US, some from Sweden, some Dutch the gentleman next to me was Asian. We are laughing, talking most of us have only ever met on the net and the age span was 25 to 60ish. I was thinking we probably would never have connected except that we have VMS in common. It was awesome. warm regards, Sue ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:22:13 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: <1192141333.392040.90420@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Oct 8, 10:58 am, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Oct 7, 8:16 am,Sue wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Newsgroup, > > > I am sitting at Heathrow airport waiting for my flight to be called > > reflecting on the last two weeks in Europe. > > > So I thought I would try and work with an English keyboard and try and > > give you an update. > > > Every country has their own keyboard so its a series of mistakes for > > me but itdoes provide yet another excuse for bad spelling. \its funny > > but every year I think that the TUD's will not get better and they do. > > I have also noticed that VMS culture is very similar in every country > > even though there are small differences. I really wish that you had a > > chance to all meet each other it would be so exciting. We were in > > Germany, Netherlands and Sweden and were pretty much full in each > > location. > > > If I am honest the team was excellent from HP and then partners in > > Germany Guy P was there from Bruden as well as Andre and then in > > \netherlands Colin B was there and then in Sweden Guy was back so > > there was a star studded speaker list not to mention blades > > sessions. > > > We also went to a college in Germany where Andy G spoke there were > > 50-60 people including 10 customers, he spoke for 2 or so hours and > > they loved what he said. We have a VMS user there who worked with the > > user group to coordinate it was awesome. > > > Gotta go sorry, you would have loved it. > >sue > > Sue. This Canadian of German decent is glad to hear that you're still > promoting OpenVMS on the continent that produced Linux. Good luck to > you and your team. > > p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.htmlhttp://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - They were celebrating Oktoberfest and we actually were able to still draw a few folks away from Munich to come celebrate VMS 30th Anniversary with us. There sure are a lot of brilliant folks involved in VMS around the world. With the TUD's we get to meet customers, developers and partners and all the countries had a good cross section of all three. I am always amazed that the folks are so open to us as individuals. Its funny how you can be on the road, visit three countries but feel like you have family in all of them. You know what is surprising after all this time I still run into customers that I did not know about. All of the TUD's were excellent, more young people than prior years. Oh and here is a cool thing in Sweden they started a VMS SIG. On the Wed night before the TUD they had their first meeting so the team went to the first kickoff meeting. Then one of the partners hosted a dinner (Seagull software) for the SIG. So we are all sitting in this room by now there is about 30 or so VMS folks, some are from the US, some from Sweden, some Dutch the gentleman next to me was Asian. We are laughing, talking most of us have only ever met on the net and the age span was 25 to 60ish. I was thinking we probably would never have connected except that we have VMS in common. It was awesome. warm regards, Sue ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 04:01:43 -0000 From: Pengjun Subject: lowercase letter can not display correctly. Message-ID: <1192161703.420103.245660@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com> After I run one of my program built by C language, all lowercase letter can not display correctly on console, but uppercase letter is OK. Did anyone meet this problem ? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 2007 07:39:36 +0200 From: eplan@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: lowercase letter can not display correctly. Message-ID: <470f24b8$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <1192161703.420103.245660@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Pengjun writes: >After I run one of my program built by C language, all lowercase >letter can not display correctly on console, but uppercase letter is OK. > >Did anyone meet this problem ? You mean you switched the characterset and get now graphical symbols instead of lowercase characters? Switch it back then: esc ( B -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:28:05 -0700 From: V Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1192134485.316073.173660@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Oct 3, 8:00?am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57949 Hoax? We have got bigger problems that hoaxes. Forget worrying about if global warming is a hoax or not....a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still Instead concentrate on the underlying cause that supposedly fuels the hoax and you will see a much more drastic picture than the ice caps melting. I will discuss the global warning issue herewith, but just for arguments sake, ignore what I say about global warming and just concentrate on the 'total energy crisis' that will be hitting us soon. And when I say total I mean all energy venues whetehr they be crude, NG, coal or nuclear. Do you want to know why don't we do anything about global warming...because we can't. To do anything substantive would cause a financial and population backlash of unimaginable proportions. And what we could do, even with drastic measures, would not cure global warming but only slow things down. In addition, there is no one global entity to control all the green house gas emitters. China an India plan on adding more dirty coal burning electric plants to feed their burgeoning economies. Yes, we have Kyoto, but...the largest polluters of green house gasses have exempted themselves from it. "As of June 2007, a total of 172 countries and other governmental entities have ratified the agreement (representing over 61.6% of emissions from Annex I countries). Notable exceptions include the United States and Australia. Other countries, like India and China, which have ratified the protocol, are not required to reduce carbon emissions under the present agreement." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol We can't start wars over green house gas like we do oil...even then we would have to go to war right here at home before we point fingers at other countries. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm As far as foreign wars, many of these newly rich nations seem to be in a war of sorts to see who can build the biggest and the tallest. Well, the bigger the building is the more energy it takes to power it and the more green house gas is given off to pay for the ego behind the monstrosity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_the_world#Tallest_buildings Thoreau once said when people invited him to dinner they 'put their pride' in how fancy and expensive a meal they could make. Whereas he put his pride in how simple and inexpensive a meal he could make. Where do we put our pride? We surely don't put it in living within our means and in balance with nature. In the US, 93.2% of our electric comes from non renewable, greenhouse gas producing methods. If we are looking to hydroelectric and renewable sources, 4.46% of our electric comes from hydroelectric and 2.34% comes from renewable energy production. Out of this 2.34% of renewable sources, an undisclosed portion still contributes to global warming despite its prestige of being a 'renewable energy source' as it involves the burning of wood, black liquor, wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste, tires, agriculture byproducts and biomass. Only a fraction of the 2.34% of renewable electric energy that is produced comes from geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy, and wind. http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates.html Lets say we decided to turn off the coal fired plants for 25% of a 24 hour day to save some fossil fuel. Saving 25% seems to be a modest proposal. So they shut the coal fired plants down for 6 hours during peak daytime operation. And lets say we don't care that all the frozen food in the markets will thaw out and the refrigerated foods will spoil. And lets say the workforce will sacrifice their jobs for the 6 hours every day while the electric is shut off. And we put up with the gridlock and accidents from not having traffic lights and the doctors and hospitals all shut down. And people just hold their noses over the backed up sewage that cannot be processed when the electric is off. The real problem with trying to implement even a modest 25% fossil fuel saving plan is this - it just can't be done. Coal fired plants are not of the nature to be turned off and turned on with the flip of a switch. If a coal fired plant was turned off and completely cooled down it would take many days to bring it back online. If a coal powered plant was shut down even for 6 hours, it would take between 10 to 12 hours to bring it back to operational capacity. In addition, when the plant is started back up, all the fossil fuel that is consumed in the startup does not make electric, it just goes to bring things back up to speed. And during startup, the plant operates at lower temperature and produces more pollution at those lower temperatures. And if that is not enough, startups of that magnitude send out power surges that destroy transformers and cause grid problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant There is no 'simple or easy answer' to this issue nor is there even a 'not so simple and hard answer' to our dilemma. The world is in a death spiral. it is just how we have built our world over the years. It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But ten billion people can't burn the trees! The World Coal Institute estimates world energy reserves as follows: "At current production levels coal will be available for at least the next 155 years compared to 41 years for oil and 65 years for gas." (See footnote #1) http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=21 Even though this was written a few years ago and it is based on 'current production and consumption' it gives the same haunting message to the generations to come. We may not see the end of our free flowing energy as we know it - but some of our descendants will in the not so distant future. This is the legacy they will inherit from us. Mankind is just a little 'too smart' for his environment and learned to live beyond natures intended means. But mankind does not seem 'smart enough' to fix the mess that it has created. Yes, mankind has done great things over their reign on earth, but we must always remember nature does not bow to us..in the end we all bow to nature. Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it today. And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism. And what does all that consumerism lead to? It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream' I love our country and would rather live here than anyplace else in the world. But be that as it may, our country and the rest of the world is built on unsustainable means and the bill is coming due soon for our spending spree. Since the US is said to be about 75% Christian and was founded on maximum freedom for its people, I doubt whether the US will ever come up with a population control plan. It would be too controversial and it goes against promoting life, certain religions and personal freedoms. But let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- or theism. I only bring them up as they pertain to the discussion. And while I cannot deny the wisdom of promoting life as many religions profess and personal freedom, sometime we must accept the lesser of two evils if promoting life turns into being more destructive to life than 'not promoting' it. It then becomes a decision whether to choose between the 'greater good for the whole' or the 'greater personal right for the individual'... and the whole be damned. (Whole meaning entire human population of our planet.) For instance, on a farm if the plants are planted packed like sardines (or 'packed like sushi' as they say in Japan) the plants do not flourish. In nature, trees that are overcrowded weed themselves out by nature's decree. But if man forced the trees to not weed out and forces crowding the trees may die from disease due to a forced and unsustainable growth plan. So it goes with how our planet is evolving...a sad but exactly true statement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation Now, I a not a tree hugger, green peace freak or communist. I drive dirt bikes, love 2 stroke 500cc thumpers, run jet skis and snowmobiles and could consume along with the best of em. But I do respect and admire nature and most of all I respect and admire life and have had to 'mend my ways' so to speak once it sunk in how things were. And in the process I have given up a lot of personal desires for the greater good of the whole. You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all the needs the people crave. The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are depleted. Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go up...fueled by spending of the consumer. It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get away from. Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it comes to durable goods. All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW You see, no other animal destroys its environment except mankind. We are the only ones that do not accept and live within our comfortable means. We not only debt with our finances we debt with our environment. What we are borrowing in terms of petroleum, coal and natural gas takes millions of years for nature to make. Yet we are using it all up in just a few hundred years...we can never pay it back. And even if you are of a religious bent that think God created it all 6000 years ago. What took 6000 years will still be used up in a fraction of the time it took to create it. Some theists say we need to pray harder to God to fix our mess. Other theists say it is Gods punishment raining down on us? No telling since God doesn't have much to say on this topic. See: 'Why is God silent - I don't know?' http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0 The scary thing is China and India are just starting to bloom with their demands for fossil fuels We haven't seen anything yet with the meteoric rise of gas, energy and over consumption. In China the per capita car ownership rate is 40 car owners per 1000 persons. In India it is much lower, running 8 cars per 1000 people. As these two giants evolve more of their population will want cars...in India, they are making a $2500 car as well. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/percapita_car_o.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20394364/ But what can one say about the problem unless people just cut back reproducing? Everyone has a desire to have some sex stimulation and through that stimulation comes more and more people. And everyone has a desire to keep warm when it is cold or to keep cool in the heat or move about the earth and wear clothes. And it is from all those desires that global warming fueled through the expenditure of fossil fuels takes place. But the sad reality is even if people cut back having babies, we are only delaying the inevitable and that alone will not fix the problem. It can be compared to men stuck underwater in a crippled submarine. The more they move around, the quicker they run out of air and die. The less they move, the longer they can live...but the end result is the same. Now maybe some genius will come up with a replacement for petroleum, natural gas and coal to meet all out needs. But it is unrealistic to think we can grow enough corn to fuel all the trucks, airlines, cargo ships, cars and other needs we humans have in addition run all the power plants and factories, heat and cool our homes. You see all our energy needs are met with non sustainable non renewable resources whether it be coal, petroleum, or natural gas. Even nuclear power is dependent on the mining of uranium and has limits as to how long the supply will last. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4287300/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/uranium.html But lets not project too far in the future and try to keep our minds on the problems at hand. $10 a gallon gas in the future? What about $30 a gallon gas?? No doubt! All we have to do is look to history for the answer. When I first took notice of gas prices in the early 70's gas was .22 cents a gallon. No one would have thought that gas would take a 1360% rise in price in 3 1/2 decades. In addition to cars and gasoline, tons of other products and industries are dependent on crude oil as a component for their products. http://www.lmoga.com/refoutput.htm I can see how life has degenerated in recent years and this is just the tip of the berg for things to come. I am not an alarmist as one lady accused me, but I would do humanity a disservice if I did not bring this topic up now an again for discussion. See my post "Your sanity is my sanity and my sanity is your sanity." http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=628.0 When you bring up population control the talk naturally turns to China and India. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2872/is_1_27/ai_71563390 And population control alone is a controversial subject to discuss ..."when you get beyond the mythology and seriously examine the one- child policy, it is clear the policy is not viable even if one can stomach the horrendous human rights violations it entails." From: http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/countries-of-the-world/asia/china/chinas-one-child-policy/ But in reality, there is no such thing as 'opinionated' - 'provocative' 'controversial' subjects. The contemplative life finds it joy in discovering truth. And the truth does not set such limits on itself as being 'too controversial' to be true. These are only subjective and prejudicial states of mind. Such 'mind blocks' may bother one, but do not bother another. As such, all problems related to 'controversial subjects' such as this are problems created in the mind...the mind of ego based, prejudicial man. If you find yourself being distracted with such thoughts as 'too controversial' just ask yourself if the proposed controversy is true, false or I don't know? That method may help you become truth based and not ego based. You will have made a 'choice divorced of need'...you wont 'need your ego' to support the truth...the truth will be able to stand on its own. Any President would do doubt have little success in getting anything done with population control. We can hear the cries now...Communist!...Atheist!...Baby Killer....Hitler!!!! So the best thing for the President to do would be to put it before the public every 2 or 3 years in a national election to get America's verdict on the subject and our country mindful of the issue. Put America on record. Then at least the President could say he tried, but the people of the US prefer to thumb their noses at the rest of the world and the US will do as they like. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption If anyone is against population control and has no other viable alternative to offer other than Communist!...Atheist!...Baby Killer....Hitler! - when they are asked what can be done to slow down global warming - slow down over consumption - slow down the destruction of the human race that hell bent on growing at an unsustainable pace - they should respond: (See footnote #2) "I just don't care...that is someone else's problem not mine." Now, I don't claim to have the magic bullet to fix all our woes. I'm just a simple philosopher not a scientist or genius. All I can do is to bring the problem to the forefront and ask that we all work in a healthier direction that the one we have been headed in. And when we can understand that all humans are interdependent and not independent of one another, we come to realize that we all share the same breath. See: http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=8.0 Footnote #1: Something to think about is coals dependence on crude. Our crude oil (41 years of reserves) will be depleted much sooner than our coal (155 years of reserves) This brings up certain problems of production and distribution. For instance, coal is delivered to power plants by rail. The trains are powered by diesel fuel, which is made from crude oil. Now, we may be able to resort back to old technology and start running coal fired steam locomotives to deliver the coal, but this will have a negative effect on the green house gas emissions. But even before the coal can be delivered it has to be mined and processed...and most of that mining is powered by crude as well. http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/mcoal.htm Footnote #2: It seems global warming can't be fixed, it can only be slowed down...too many people on earth to fix it...to many demands...too many cravings...best we can do is to slow it down. Take care, V (Male) Agnostic Freethinker Practical Philosopher vfr44@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:33:05 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <470E8881.6020805@comcast.net> V wrote: > On Oct 3, 8:00?am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > >>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57949 > > > > > > > > > Hoax? > > We have got bigger problems that hoaxes. > > Forget worrying about if global warming is a hoax or not....a person > convinced against their will is of the same opinion still > > Instead concentrate on the underlying cause that supposedly fuels the > hoax and you will see a much more drastic picture than the ice caps > melting. > > I will discuss the global warning issue herewith, but just for > arguments sake, ignore what I say about global warming and just > concentrate on the 'total energy crisis' that will be hitting us soon. > And when I say total I mean all energy venues whetehr they be crude, > NG, coal or nuclear. > > Do you want to know why don't we do anything about global > warming...because we can't. > > To do anything substantive would cause a financial and population > backlash of unimaginable proportions. > > And what we could do, even with drastic measures, would not cure > global warming but only slow things down. > > In addition, there is no one global entity to control all the green > house gas emitters. China an India plan on adding more dirty coal > burning electric plants to feed their burgeoning economies. > > Yes, we have Kyoto, but...the largest polluters of green house gasses > have exempted themselves from it. > > "As of June 2007, a total of 172 countries and other governmental > entities have ratified the agreement (representing over 61.6% of > emissions from Annex I countries). Notable exceptions include the > United States and Australia. Other countries, like India and China, > which have ratified the protocol, are not required to reduce carbon > emissions under the present agreement." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol > > We can't start wars over green house gas like we do oil...even then we > would have to go to war right here at home before we point fingers at > other countries. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm > > As far as foreign wars, many of these newly rich nations seem to be in > a war of sorts to see who can build the biggest and the tallest. Well, > the bigger the building is the more energy it takes to power it and > the more green house gas is given off to pay for the ego behind the > monstrosity. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_the_world#Tallest_buildings > > Thoreau once said when people invited him to dinner they 'put their > pride' in how fancy and expensive a meal they could make. Whereas he > put his pride in how simple and inexpensive a meal he could make. > > Where do we put our pride? > > We surely don't put it in living within our means and in balance with > nature. > > In the US, 93.2% of our electric comes from non renewable, greenhouse > gas producing methods. > > If we are looking to hydroelectric and renewable sources, 4.46% of our > electric comes from hydroelectric and 2.34% comes from renewable > energy production. > > Out of this 2.34% of renewable sources, an undisclosed portion still > contributes to global warming despite its prestige of being a > 'renewable energy source' as it involves the burning of wood, black > liquor, wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste, > tires, agriculture byproducts and biomass. > > Only a fraction of the 2.34% of renewable electric energy that is > produced comes from geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy, > and wind. > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates.html > > Lets say we decided to turn off the coal fired plants for 25% of a 24 > hour day to save some fossil fuel. > > Saving 25% seems to be a modest proposal. > > So they shut the coal fired plants down for 6 hours during peak > daytime operation. > > And lets say we don't care that all the frozen food in the markets > will thaw out and the refrigerated foods will spoil. > > And lets say the workforce will sacrifice their jobs for the 6 hours > every day while the electric is shut off. > > And we put up with the gridlock and accidents from not having traffic > lights and the doctors and hospitals all shut down. > > And people just hold their noses over the backed up sewage that cannot > be processed when the electric is off. > > The real problem with trying to implement even a modest 25% fossil > fuel saving plan is this - it just can't be done. > > Coal fired plants are not of the nature to be turned off and turned on > with the flip of a switch. > > If a coal fired plant was turned off and completely cooled down it > would take many days to bring it back online. If a coal powered plant > was shut down even for 6 hours, it would take between 10 to 12 hours > to bring it back to operational capacity. > > In addition, when the plant is started back up, all the fossil fuel > that is consumed in the startup does not make electric, it just goes > to bring things back up to speed. And during startup, the plant > operates at lower temperature and produces more pollution at those > lower temperatures. And if that is not enough, startups of that > magnitude send out power surges that destroy transformers and cause > grid problems. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant > > There is no 'simple or easy answer' to this issue nor is there even a > 'not so simple and hard answer' to our dilemma. > > The world is in a death spiral. it is just how we have built our world > over the years. > > It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning > trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means > allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But > ten billion people can't burn the trees! > > The World Coal Institute estimates world energy reserves as follows: > > "At current production levels coal will be available for at least the > next 155 years compared to 41 years for oil and 65 years for > gas." (See footnote #1) > > http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=21 > > Even though this was written a few years ago and it is based on > 'current production and consumption' it gives the same haunting > message to the generations to come. > > We may not see the end of our free flowing energy as we know it - but > some of our descendants will in the not so distant future. This is the > legacy they will inherit from us. > > Mankind is just a little 'too smart' for his environment and learned > to live beyond natures intended means. > > But mankind does not seem 'smart enough' to fix the mess that it has > created. > > Yes, mankind has done great things over their reign on earth, but we > must always remember nature does not bow to us..in the end we all bow > to nature. > > Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no > return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it > today. > > And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA. > > http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption > > Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if > we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take > the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism. > > And what does all that consumerism lead to? > > It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will > be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious > lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream' > > I love our country and would rather live here than anyplace else in > the world. But be that as it may, our country and the rest of the > world is built on unsustainable means and the bill is coming due soon > for our spending spree. > > Since the US is said to be about 75% Christian and was founded on > maximum freedom for its people, I doubt whether the US will ever come > up with a population control plan. It would be too controversial and > it goes against promoting life, certain religions and personal > freedoms. > > But let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- or theism. I only > bring them up as they pertain to the discussion. > > And while I cannot deny the wisdom of promoting life as many religions > profess and personal freedom, sometime we must accept the lesser of > two evils if promoting life turns into being more destructive to life > than 'not promoting' it. > > It then becomes a decision whether to choose between the 'greater good > for the whole' or the 'greater personal right for the individual'... > and the whole be damned. (Whole meaning entire human population of our > planet.) > > For instance, on a farm if the plants are planted packed like sardines > (or 'packed like sushi' as they say in Japan) the plants do not > flourish. > > In nature, trees that are overcrowded weed themselves out by nature's > decree. But if man forced the trees to not weed out and forces > crowding the trees may die from disease due to a forced and > unsustainable growth plan. > > So it goes with how our planet is evolving...a sad but exactly true > statement. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation > > Now, I a not a tree hugger, green peace freak or communist. I drive > dirt bikes, love 2 stroke 500cc thumpers, run jet skis and snowmobiles > and could consume along with the best of em. > > But I do respect and admire nature and most of all I respect and > admire life and have had to 'mend my ways' so to speak once it sunk in > how things were. And in the process I have given up a lot of personal > desires for the greater good of the whole. > > You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all > its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all > the needs the people crave. > > The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and > all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth > gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are > depleted. > > Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World > banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to > fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for > Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go > up...fueled by spending of the consumer. > > It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get > away from. > > Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low > interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a > life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it > comes to durable goods. > > All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our > retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global > warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the > governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem > artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them > happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it > goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW > > You see, no other animal destroys its environment except mankind. We > are the only ones that do not accept and live within our comfortable > means. We not only debt with our finances we debt with our > environment. What we are borrowing in terms of petroleum, coal and > natural gas takes millions of years for nature to make. Yet we are > using it all up in just a few hundred years...we can never pay it > back. > > And even if you are of a religious bent that think God created it all > 6000 years ago. What took 6000 years will still be used up in a > fraction of the time it took to create it. > > Some theists say we need to pray harder to God to fix our mess. Other > theists say it is Gods punishment raining down on us? > > No telling since God doesn't have much to say on this topic. > > See: > > 'Why is God silent - I don't know?' > > http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0 > > The scary thing is China and India are just starting to bloom with > their demands for fossil fuels We haven't seen anything yet with the > meteoric rise of gas, energy and over consumption. > > In China the per capita car ownership rate is 40 car owners per 1000 > persons. In India it is much lower, running 8 cars per 1000 people. As > these two giants evolve more of their population will want cars...in > India, they are making a $2500 car as well. > > http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/percapita_car_o.html > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20394364/ > > But what can one say about the problem unless people just cut back > reproducing? > > Everyone has a desire to have some sex stimulation and through that > stimulation comes more and more people. > > And everyone has a desire to keep warm when it is cold or to keep cool > in the heat or move about the earth and wear clothes. And it is from > all those desires that global warming fueled through the expenditure > of fossil fuels takes place. > > But the sad reality is even if people cut back having babies, we are > only delaying the inevitable and that alone will not fix the problem. > It can be compared to men stuck underwater in a crippled submarine. > The more they move around, the quicker they run out of air and die. > The less they move, the longer they can live...but the end result is > the same. > > Now maybe some genius will come up with a replacement for petroleum, > natural gas and coal to meet all out needs. But it is unrealistic to > think we can grow enough corn to fuel all the trucks, airlines, cargo > ships, cars and other needs we humans have in addition run all the > power plants and factories, heat and cool our homes. > > You see all our energy needs are met with non sustainable non > renewable resources whether it be coal, petroleum, or natural gas. > Even nuclear power is dependent on the mining of uranium and has > limits as to how long the supply will last. > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4287300/ > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves > > http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/uranium.html > > But lets not project too far in the future and try to keep our minds > on the problems at hand. > > $10 a gallon gas in the future? What about $30 a gallon gas?? > > No doubt! All we have to do is look to history for the answer. > > When I first took notice of gas prices in the early 70's gas was .22 > cents a gallon. > > No one would have thought that gas would take a 1360% rise in price in > 3 1/2 decades. > > In addition to cars and gasoline, tons of other products and > industries are dependent on crude oil as a component for their > products. > > http://www.lmoga.com/refoutput.htm > > I can see how life has degenerated in recent years and this is just > the tip of the berg for things to come. I am not an alarmist as one > lady accused me, but I would do humanity a disservice if I did not > bring this topic up now an again for discussion. > > See my post > > "Your sanity is my sanity and my sanity is your sanity." > > http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=628.0 > > When you bring up population control the talk naturally turns to China > and India. > > http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2872/is_1_27/ai_71563390 > > And population control alone is a controversial subject to discuss > > ..."when you get beyond the mythology and seriously examine the one- > child policy, it is clear the policy is not viable even if one can > stomach the horrendous human rights violations it entails." > > From: > > http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/countries-of-the-world/asia/china/chinas-one-child-policy/ > > But in reality, there is no such thing as 'opinionated' - > 'provocative' 'controversial' subjects. The contemplative life finds > it joy in discovering truth. And the truth does not set such limits on > itself as being 'too controversial' to be true. > > These are only subjective and prejudicial states of mind. Such 'mind > blocks' may bother one, but do not bother another. As such, all > problems related to 'controversial subjects' such as this are problems > created in the mind...the mind of ego based, prejudicial man. > > If you find yourself being distracted with such thoughts as 'too > controversial' just ask yourself if the proposed controversy is true, > false or I don't know? > > That method may help you become truth based and not ego based. You > will have made a 'choice divorced of need'...you wont 'need your ego' > to support the truth...the truth will be able to stand on its own. > > Any President would do doubt have little success in getting anything > done with population control. We can hear the cries > now...Communist!...Atheist!...Baby Killer....Hitler!!!! > > So the best thing for the President to do would be to put it before > the public every 2 or 3 years in a national election to get America's > verdict on the subject and our country mindful of the issue. > > Put America on record. > > Then at least the President could say he tried, but the people of the > US prefer to thumb their noses at the rest of the world and the US > will do as they like. > > http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption > > If anyone is against population control and has no other viable > alternative to offer other than Communist!...Atheist!...Baby > Killer....Hitler! - when they are asked what can be done to slow down > global warming - slow down over consumption - slow down the > destruction of the human race that hell bent on growing at an > unsustainable pace - they should respond: (See footnote #2) > > "I just don't care...that is someone else's problem not mine." > > Now, I don't claim to have the magic bullet to fix all our woes. I'm > just a simple philosopher not a scientist or genius. All I can do is > to bring the problem to the forefront and ask that we all work in a > healthier direction that the one we have been headed in. And when we > can understand that all humans are interdependent and not independent > of one another, we come to realize that we all share the same breath. > > See: > > http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=8.0 > > > Footnote #1: > > Something to think about is coals dependence on crude. Our crude oil > (41 years of reserves) will be depleted much sooner than our coal (155 > years of reserves) This brings up certain problems of production and > distribution. For instance, coal is delivered to power plants by rail. > The trains are powered by diesel fuel, which is made from crude oil. > Now, we may be able to resort back to old technology and start running > coal fired steam locomotives to deliver the coal, but this will have a > negative effect on the green house gas emissions. But even before the > coal can be delivered it has to be mined and processed...and most of > that mining is powered by crude as well. > > http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/mcoal.htm > > > Footnote #2: > > It seems global warming can't be fixed, it can only be slowed > down...too many people on earth to fix it...to many demands...too many > cravings...best we can do is to slow it down. > > > > Take care, > > > V (Male) > > Agnostic Freethinker > Practical Philosopher > vfr44@aol.com > Stuff it up your ass. This is OT for this newsgroup! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:07:48 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <470e9eb5$0$7608$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: clip ... clip ... >> Take care, >> >> >> V (Male) >> >> Agnostic Freethinker >> Practical Philosopher >> vfr44@aol.com >> > > Stuff it up your ass. This is OT for this newsgroup! And we needed to quote the whole article for that ? Your suggestion is unlikely to help in reducing his personal CH4, CO2 or H20 emmissions. Which reminds me, has anyone ever calculated the annual emmissions of a single individual of these 3 greenhouse components? I mean they are pretty basic byproducts of life as we know it and reasonable calculations would not seem to difficult. Dr. Dweeb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:18:37 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article <470e9eb5$0$7608$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > Your suggestion is unlikely to help in reducing his personal CH4, CO2 or H20 > emmissions. > > Which reminds me, has anyone ever calculated the annual emmissions of a > single individual of these 3 greenhouse components? I mean they are pretty > basic byproducts of life as we know it and reasonable calculations would not > seem to difficult. Of course someone has, and it is more or less irrelevant as far as global warming is concerned. Whether or not you accept that industrial CO2 increases global warming, i.e. whether or not you accept the argument, you first have to understand the argument. Of course animals produce a lot of CO2. However, this is from carbon which they ingested just hours before. The whole issue with fossil fuels is that this is carbon which has been buried for hundreds of millions of years and is now entering the atmosphere, thus increasing the concentration. CO2 produced by animals is a red herring. Even if the amount were much larger than that produced by fossil fuels, it would still be irrelevant, since the issue is that fossil fuels increase the concentration, rather than just recycling it. Again, even if you don't accept the connection, you have to at least appreciate the point. Of course, if all the fossil fuels were burned, then the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere would be back to Jurassic levels. Not a problem for the Earth or life in the big picture; again, that's not the point, but rather whether flooding coastal civilisation is something we want to worry about. Some other things some folks often get wrong: if ice on top of land (e.g. Greenland) melts, then one can calculate the rise in the ocean level. It doesn't matter what fraction of the ocean volume this is, since it is an ADDITION. Also, global warming itself will create a significant ocean-level rise, just due to thermal expansion of sea water. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 2007 22:50:07 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <5n7nkvFgtub8U1@mid.individual.net> In article <470E8881.6020805@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Stuff it up your ass. This is OT for this newsgroup! And yet you posted the entire article a second time for him. Go figure. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:19:24 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <0JBPi.4848$d2.4484@trnddc08> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article <470e9eb5$0$7608$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" > writes: > > >>Your suggestion is unlikely to help in reducing his personal CH4, CO2 or H20 >>emmissions. >> >>Which reminds me, has anyone ever calculated the annual emmissions of a >>single individual of these 3 greenhouse components? I mean they are pretty >>basic byproducts of life as we know it and reasonable calculations would not >>seem to difficult. > > > Of course someone has, and it is more or less irrelevant as far as > global warming is concerned. Whether or not you accept that industrial > CO2 increases global warming, i.e. whether or not you accept the > argument, you first have to understand the argument. Of course animals > produce a lot of CO2. However, this is from carbon which they ingested > just hours before. The whole issue with fossil fuels is that this is > carbon which has been buried for hundreds of millions of years and is > now entering the atmosphere, thus increasing the concentration. > > CO2 produced by animals is a red herring. Even if the amount were much > larger than that produced by fossil fuels, it would still be irrelevant, > since the issue is that fossil fuels increase the concentration, rather > than just recycling it. > > Again, even if you don't accept the connection, you have to at least > appreciate the point. > > Of course, if all the fossil fuels were burned, then the CO2 > concentration in the atmosphere would be back to Jurassic levels. Not a Not Jurassic. Pre-Carboniferous (Devonian) levels. > problem for the Earth or life in the big picture; again, that's not the > point, but rather whether flooding coastal civilisation is something we > want to worry about. > > Some other things some folks often get wrong: if ice on top of land > (e.g. Greenland) melts, then one can calculate the rise in the ocean > level. It doesn't matter what fraction of the ocean volume this is, > since it is an ADDITION. Also, global warming itself will create a > significant ocean-level rise, just due to thermal expansion of sea > water. > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 2007 13:24:44 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > In article <$eDBd3RhL0uI@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >>Certainly DECnet does not allow an unprivileged user to accept >>unauthenticated connections. > > As far as I am aware that isn't true. MAIL, FAL and other DECNET objects > don't do any checking back to authenticate the user connecting. Those are specially enabled by the system manager to allow such connections to a specified username. Such action by the system manager is not "unprivileged". ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 2007 13:27:56 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: <1T7ZD1kEBHK0@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > As far as I am aware the only authentication ever done with DECNET objects is > to require the incoming connection to supply the target username and password > or appropriate proxy information. This is no different from applications under > TCPIP. No, because the authentication is required by DECnet itself. An unprivileged user cannot set up a receiving application to accept connections from unauthenticated users. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:52:27 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> In article <$eDBd3RhL0uI@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > >>>Certainly DECnet does not allow an unprivileged user to accept >>>unauthenticated connections. >> >> As far as I am aware that isn't true. MAIL, FAL and other DECNET objects >> don't do any checking back to authenticate the user connecting. > >Those are specially enabled by the system manager to allow such >connections to a specified username. Such action by the system >manager is not "unprivileged". You don't think a Unix system manager has to configure a mail server , FTP server etc ? On most systems programs can only bind to the well-known ports 0-1023 if they have privileges. Non-privileged users cannot setup programs listening on the well-known ports. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:00:29 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article <1T7ZD1kEBHK0@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >> As far as I am aware the only authentication ever done with DECNET objects is >> to require the incoming connection to supply the target username and password >> or appropriate proxy information. This is no different from applications under >> TCPIP. > >No, because the authentication is required by DECnet itself. >An unprivileged user cannot set up a receiving application >to accept connections from unauthenticated users. Ah I get it. The big security advantage you are talking about just amounts to the fact that with TCPIP non-privileged users can setup programs under their own account to listen on high port numbers (but not on the standard well-known ports) which run without any privileges. Sorry I thought you were talking about real security. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 2007 16:44:22 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: <$AFcOB4CEfa9@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >>Those are specially enabled by the system manager to allow such >>connections to a specified username. Such action by the system >>manager is not "unprivileged". > On most systems programs can only bind to the well-known ports 0-1023 if they > have privileges. Non-privileged users cannot setup programs listening on the > well-known ports. Yes, that is exactly the point. Above the range of well-known ports the system manager cannot prevent ordinary users from setting up a listener that accepts unauthenticatecd connections. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 2007 16:45:16 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > Ah I get it. The big security advantage you are talking about just amounts to > the fact that with TCPIP non-privileged users can setup programs under their > own account to listen on high port numbers (but not on the standard well-known > ports) which run without any privileges. > > Sorry I thought you were talking about real security. The ability to accept unauthenticated connections certainly is real security. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:03:40 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article , > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= > writes: > > > I do (for a file named FILE.LOG) : > > > > $ rename FILE.LOG.* FILE.TMP.0 > > $ rename FILE.TMP.* FILE.LOG.0 > Suggestion: replace "rename" with "backup/delete" and you get the same > effect without changing the modified date! Of course, this won't work if the file is in use! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:04:52 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: > The nice thing with "rename" is that no data is moving around, > so it runs quite fast. "Backup/delete" will shuffle all data > around two times, right ? Right. The advantage with BACKUP is that it keeps the timestamps. Best is probably more complex code after all, do the RENAME, then call a program to re-set the modified timestamp back to the original value. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:02:23 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly mis Message-ID: For folks here in need of answers to technical questions, or who have technical knowledge to contribute, I highly recommend the HP IT Resource Center Forums on OpenVMS as a far-superior alternative to this newsgroup: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:07:03 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Message-ID: In article , Keith Parris writes: > > >For folks here in need of answers to technical questions, or who have >technical knowledge to contribute, I highly recommend the HP IT Resource >Center Forums on OpenVMS as a far-superior alternative to this >newsgroup: >http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 ... and the VMS terminal interface for this would be??? I have, occasionally, used the ITRC. In nearly every case, I've had my question answered here. The ITRC interface is web based meaning I have to suffer text area form entry when I want to post. The search features of ITRC are lackluster too. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:08:06 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Message-ID: <1192136886.701677.250130@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Oct 11, 3:02 pm, Keith Parris wrote: > For folks here in need of answers to technical questions, or who have > technical knowledge to contribute, I highly recommend the HP IT Resource > Center Forums on OpenVMS as a far-superior alternative to this > newsgroup:http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 Well, this isn't going to improve the S/N ratio of COV, now, is it? ITRC is a bit of a pain. I can't remember my cryptic user name. Sometimes have to wait days for my password. Why don't they have wider space in which to put questions and output? Why isn't it a fixed-width font? Why the ugly Web-page formatting? Why the wizard/guru/olympian/ rock_star/savior/hero/superman/captain Kirk/champion/starter/loser/ handyman-icon system which rewards volume times quality instead of quality itself? I'll try there if I don't get a good answer here. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:23:02 -0700 From: deano Subject: Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Message-ID: <1192137782.423448.323120@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 11, 1:07 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Keith Parris writes: > > >For folks here in need of answers to technical questions, or who have > >technical knowledge to contribute, I highly recommend the HP IT Resource > >Center Forums on OpenVMS as a far-superior alternative to this > >newsgroup: > >http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 > > ... and the VMS terminal interface for this would be??? > > I have, occasionally, used the ITRC. In nearly every case, I've had my > question answered here. The ITRC interface is web based meaning I have > to suffer text area form entry when I want to post. The search features > of ITRC are lackluster too. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html I just learned of this site last week or so and started posting here as well as ITRC. If you don't specify a fal account when configuring it, you won't see the object with a list. for others, it could be they were deleted. see if there is a netobject logical defined redirecting the location of netobject.dat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:08:27 -0400 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: Re: Technical Q&A (Was Re: Actual VMS Technical Qeustion! DECnet Phase IV partly Message-ID: <014101c80c74$c774cf40$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP> > For folks here in need of answers to technical questions, or who have > technical knowledge to contribute, I highly recommend the HP IT Resource > Center Forums on OpenVMS as a far-superior alternative to this newsgroup: The main problem with ITRC is that it is owned by HP. There is a wealth of VMS information in ITRC just as there is a wealth of VMS information that has been posted in COV. Luckily COV is being captured and recorded by various sites so all that information should never disappear. Tomorrow HP could decide that only supported customers get in or that you need to pay a fee to view old posts or they could simply purge the database to remove old records. HP owns all the data in ITRC so it could do whatever it wants with it and that information could be lost or unattainable for many of us. Remember when ITRC went with the "Natural Language Search" and we could not find all the great support articles that DEC created over the years? HP knew before they shutdown the old DSN ITS that the Natural Language Search engine could not find articles we needed to find but they still shutdown the DSN ITS and tried to find ways to trick the new search engine into working. When they finally replaced the Natural Language Search I was able to send the Gold TAM that my customer had an example of a search that I saved from DSN ITS that could not be duplicated with the new search engine. Since I no longer have access to a Gold support contract I do not know if that was ever fixed. Finally, I hate to be accused of sounding like JF, but *if* HP ever sells VMS it is possible that all the information in ITRC could simply disappear. It would be really nice if all these idiotic global warming and religious threads would stop and real technical discussions returned to COV so we don't have to worry about the ITRC knowledge being lost. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial Hardware ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:16:39 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: On 10/11/07 06:24, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: [snip] > I don't know where you get that 99.44% figure - I still seem to see lots of Must be an Americanism. (Ivory Soap is claimed to be 99 44/100th pure.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:19:36 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: <470ea179$0$7604$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> David J Dachtera wrote: > ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: >> >> http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=202 > > Y'know, Bob, guys like the author of the article you cite discredit > your intelligence. That article reads like its targetted to children > and/or people unable to think for themselves (thought and reason are > two of God's greatest gifts to humankind). > > That said, when I lookup references to people, places, etc. cite in > such articles, I do learn a lot - chasing link after link on > Wikipedia. > > Didn't want you to think it was a total waste of my time... Actually, taking the religious drivel out of the article leaves behind quite a good starting point for an inquiring mind. Dweeb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:31:07 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: <1192145467.918394.89460@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com> On Oct 10, 9:18 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=202 > While we're bringing up ridiculous ideas, check out this cartoon about the Mormon church. I'm hoping it's a joke but others have told me the facts are for real. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo p.s. I've been told that the last 10 seconds validate the whole thing :-) NSR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 04:54:15 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >>In article <5n20vhFfrg1cU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>>Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm >>>and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! >>> >> >> The OP wants controlled access to data which applications use to >> control their processing. There are a great many ways to achieve >> that on UNIX and his original posting made it look like he was open >> to any. >> >> So what in your masterfull opinion is "THE method in common use on >> Unix"? (emphasis mine) > > > I didn't say "THE method" (emphasis yours), I said "the methods" as I am > willing to allow that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Especially > in the Unix world. > > I would need a lot more information than a simple vague USENET article > before I would undertake engineering a solution. I would certainly not > spend the majority of my time trying to imitate VMS logicals. > > bill > So you admit you have no useful advise to offer the OP? Then why did you post? -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:54:24 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich Message-ID: <470e7179$0$25474$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 10-10-2007 13:59 Richard Maher wrote... > Hi Tom, > >> Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look > > Thanks for that, and here you go: - > > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html > > In order to be able to use this Queue Manager example successfully you will > need:- Now works like a charm, doing everything you said it would. I'm impressed. Wilm (demo started and concluded using IE7 64bits, Windows Vista x64 Business on HP Compaq 6715b notebook, Java SE 1.6.0_02-b06) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:14:44 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich Message-ID: Hi Wilm, > (demo started and concluded using IE7 64bits, Windows Vista x64 Business > on HP Compaq 6715b notebook, Java SE 1.6.0_02-b06) IE7 on 64bit Vista, excellent! So I think that's most boxes ticked. (Does anyone know of a recent version of a Browser and OS and Java (apart from VMS :-( obviously) where the example doesn't run? Pilot error and incompetence excepted.) > Now works like a charm, doing everything you said it would. Thanks for trying it out. Being able to echo the result set of matching queues in-between key strokes from a sub-optimal VAX in Florida, is performance I feel worth mentioning (again :-) I hope you, and others, agree with me that the functionality on display (predictive text, result set handling, hot-abort button etc) transcends any dickie queue lookup example, and has application in most other commercial systems. Don't forget to look at http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/ for the DEMO_UARS.COB and the BUILD_UARS.COM files to see how truly simple it is to develop these VMS Application Servers. The same 3GLs, the same Debugger, the same DCL, the same Databases, and no development retraining! > I'm impressed. Thanks very much for the feedback, we do appreciate it! If you or anyone else would like a copy of the Tier3 Hobbyist kit so that you can put this example (and any others you care to think of) through its paces at home, then just send an e-mail with "Hobbyist Kit" in the title to Tier3 (at) aapt (dot) net (dot) au Cheers Richard Maher PS. Maybe some PL/I User Action Routines running on an Alpha-emulator could give an existing application new legs and appeal, and provide customers with much-needed breathing space? "Wilm Boerhout" wrote in message news:470e7179$0$25474$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl... > on 10-10-2007 13:59 Richard Maher wrote... > > Hi Tom, > > > >> Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look > > > > Thanks for that, and here you go: - > > > > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html > > > > In order to be able to use this Queue Manager example successfully you will > > need:- > > Now works like a charm, doing everything you said it would. > > I'm impressed. > > Wilm > > (demo started and concluded using IE7 64bits, Windows Vista x64 Business > on HP Compaq 6715b notebook, Java SE 1.6.0_02-b06) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 04:15:49 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich Message-ID: Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Tom, > > >>Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look > > > Thanks for that, and here you go: - > > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html > > In order to be able to use this Queue Manager example successfully you will > need:- > > 1) Javascript enabled > 2) Java Applets enabled > 3) Can't be behind a Firewall that forbids all unknown outgoing connections > (otherwise open-up 5255) > 4) Must be running SUN's JRE 1.4.2_13 or later (1.6 is advised) > http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp > If you're using Mac OS X then you must be running Apple's J2SE 1.5 or later, > and you must also be a bit of a self-starter, a bit tech-savy, and be able > to spot a HOLD button when you see one; L-Platers are advised to focus > elsewhere. If you'd prefer to lay on your back with your wee flippers > flailing madly in the air, while whining "Boo-Hoo it doesn't work" then COV > is definitely the place for you, but if like Graham and Craig you're able to > distinguish your arse from your elbow when it comes to Mac OS X then you're > in for a rewarding experience. > 5) Must be running Internet Explorer (6 or later) or Firefox (Haven't tested > other browsers) Safari also works > > If need be, turn on the Java Console (Settings/Controle pannel/Java > Plug-in/Console on) and, if using Firefox, the Error Console. (You just > gotta love FireBug!!!) > > All things being equal you should then be prompted (via Java modal dialogue > box) for:- > > Username: TIER3_DEMO > Password: QUEUE > > If things are still going well, enter an asterix "*" for the Queue Name and > you will see the List-of-values appear with all the available queues on the > Deathrow cluster. Now click on the "Get Job Info" button and we're away! > > If not the Java Console should give you a message. > > If you're slightly curious as to exactly how easily this full-function, > high-quality, high-performance GUI has gained access to the VMS servers that > we all know and love, then all the source code is available at > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/ (Can also help to track down any > problems) > > If you'd like to use this application on an ongoing basis from your normal > Inmate Username/Password then please contact me and I will see if it's > possible. > > Cheers Richard Maher > > Here's some of the functionality-catwalk highlights from the example: - > > 1) Full, one-time, context-specific, VMS User Authentication. No Cookies, > Session IDs, Password Caching or generic Work-Station or Browser > credentials! When you load the demo_client_web.html page into your browser, > a Java Applet is automatically activated that prompts the user for their VMS > Username and Password via a modal dialogue box. If authorization fails, the > "Access Denied" page will be displayed and VMS Intrusion Detection (in > accordance with the policy set out by your System Manager) will be enforced, > and Login-Failures is incremented in SYSUAF. Alternatively, if authorization > is successful (and you left the "Display Logon Confirmation" box ticked) > then a Welcome dialog box will be displayed detailing last login times and > the number of unsuccessful login attempts (if any). Login-Failures is now > set to zero and last non-interactive login time is set to the current time. > > If you refresh this page, or move to a different page, then the server > connection is broken and you must be re-authorised before continuing to > access the Demo Queue Manager application. > > 2) A Hot-Abort button! After you have pressed the "Get Job Info" button > you'll notice that the "Abort Request" button becomes active and turns red. > (Actually you probably won't notice 'cos this query completes too quickly > :-) You can edit the DEMO_UARS.COB code and change the value of the > DEBUG_DELAY field if you want to see your 3GL Interrupt routine in action.) > In this case the cancel-flag I've set in the AST routine is picked up in the > mainline code, resulting in the graceful termination of the loop that > controls "next queue" (or "next row") retrieval. > > Also, if you look at the getResponse() function in query_lookup.html, you > will see how the chan.setTimeout() method has been deployed to provide an > erstwhile "blocking" socket Read with the ability to surrender the > event-thread for things like processing the Abort button and ticking over > the clock. (all of this, and much more, "infrastructure-code" is already > there and doesn't have to be re-invented) > > 3) Predictive text on the Queue Name field so that all matching VMS queues > are retrieved on-demand as the user types. As is now common-place with many > websites, a drop down select list of matching options is automatically > retrieved from the server and made available for the user to select from. > > 4) Result-set drill-down. Many database queries return a result-set of rows > for the user to scan through and possibly drill-down into for more detail. > I've provided a reasonably generic example of this, where all matching Job > Entries have been populated into a dynamic HTML select list. Once again the > user was able to see the select-list grow, the scroll-bar diminish, and > "Jobs Found" field tick over in real-time, whilst continually being > empowered (by the Abort button) to curtail the results at any time! > > If you click on an entry in the Select List then the changes and the > entry_details.html page appears. See the parent.entry_details.getReady() > call in queue_lookup.html to see how the handover to the new frame takes > place. (Also see goBack() in entry_details.html to see how simply that > operation is reversed.) > > The user is now free to move forward, back, first, last, refresh, and delete > queue entries, or return to the previous frame. (Thanks to the deployment of > the VMS Persona functionality, the user is only permitted to see those queue > entries that the Username they signed in under is permitted to see. They can > also *only* delete those entries that this username is allowed to delete.) > > 5) Floating
s. You'll see that any queue names are highlighted in bold > and italics; if you mouseover any of these fields when they are not blank > then the current status information for that queue will be retrieved from > the server and displayed in a quasi-popup DIV. > > 6) Local Result-Set Sort. If you click on the "header" or "first" row in the > Select List of queues, you will get a popup prompting you for a sort key. If > you select one, the contents of the Select List are sorted in the chosen > order. (Try enter "*" for the Queue Name and then clicking "Get Job Info" to > get some data worth sorting) > > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.tzympfb0hv4qyg@murphus.linden... > >>On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:46:24 -0700, Richard Maher >> wrote: >> >> >>>Hi Tom, >>> >>> >>>>Aye. >>> >>>Then if you get a chance could you please try accessing the demo Queue >>>Lookup application and let me know how far it gets before barfing? For >>>ol' >>>times' sake :-) I was happy to rely on the arrogance of market share >>>between IE and Firefox, but now with Safari working, I'm curious to see >>>how >>>far the portability goes. >> >>Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look >> >> >>>Cheers Richard Maher Feh! I thought people were claiming this doesn't work on VMS. Seems to work just fine. (Though the 1st time through, it seemed to be downloading or compiling something and my process was using 126% of the CPU for a while... In about 10 seconds, it came up to the login box and the CPU consumption went back to background levels... Subsequent logins and other operations (refresh, sort the job list by various orders, etc.) seemed more or less instant with no appreciable load.) VMS V8.3 on an Itanium rx2620, 2 processor 1.6GHz, 4GB memory, Java 1.5.0-1, Mozilla (SWB) 1.7.13. Since it seems compulsory to complain about something on this thread, the box displaying the list of jobs only has room for 5 so you have to scroll around to see everything. I tried grabbing the edge and stretching it, but nothing happened. :-) :-) :-) :-) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:29:16 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Message-ID: <470ea3bc$0$7607$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> AEF wrote: > On Oct 10, 7:46 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> "Informational cascade" and "reputational cascade". >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html >> >> We like to think that people improve their judgment by >> putting their minds together, and sometimes they do. The >> studio audience at "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" usually >> votes for the right answer. But suppose, instead of the >> audience members voting silently in unison, they voted out >> loud one after another. And suppose the first person gets >> it wrong. >> >> If the second person isn't sure of the answer, he's liable >> to go along with the first person's guess. By then, even if >> the third person suspects another answer is right, she's >> more liable to go along just because she assumes the first >> two together know more than she does. Thus begins an "infor- >> mational cascade" as one person after another assumes that >> the rest can't all be wrong. >> ==== >> Meanwhile, there still wasn't good evidence to warrant >> recommending a low-fat diet for all Americans, as the >> National Academy of Sciences noted in a report shortly after >> the U.S.D.A. guidelines were issued. But the report's >> authors were promptly excoriated on Capitol Hill and in the >> news media for denying a danger that had already been pro- >> claimed by the American Heart Association, the McGovern >> committee and the U.S.D.A. >> >> The scientists, despite their impressive credentials, were >> accused of bias because some of them had done research fi- >> nanced by the food industry. And so the informational cascade >> morphed into what the economist Timur Kuran calls a reputational >> cascade, in which it becomes a career risk for dissidents to >> question the popular wisdom. >> >> -- >> Ron Johnson, Jr. >> Jefferson LA USA >> > [...] > > I read this article yesterday and was very disappointed that it didn't > mention saturated fats or trans fats, which are now considered to be > the bad fats while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated are considered > to be the good fats. The role of exercise was also not mentioned. And > there are other possible explanations. As for the French paradox, > maybe they have a gene that protects them from high fat intake, e.g. > And it would be nice to know what the cholesterol C-reactive (or > whatever that one is called) levels of the French are. > > Another point not mentioned is that the "blunt-hammer" low-fat diet > recommended by the gov't was done that way in order to avoid confusing > people about good vs. bad fats. They figured that if people reduced > all fats, then bad fats would be reduced. (I remember this from a > Consumer Reports article, I think. If not the, it was probably The New > York Times.) > > AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! > > I'm looking forward to what responding letter writers have to say. > > In the end, the right answer will emerge. Hopefully it won't be too > late. > > AEF IIRC the original research which pointed the finger squarely at saturated facts was based on "selective data" which showed almost linear increase in certain heart diseases to be almost perfectly correlated with the increase in "fat" consumption, measured at the macro (ie. country) level. It was subsequently, like 30-40 years later, revealed by an inquisitive mind that only a small sample of the available 3rd party (WHO ?) data was exposed in the research, and that including all available data resulted in zero correlation. Bad science debunked, but damage already done. Now, just because the science and research was fatally flawed, does not mean the answer is necessarily wrong, it could be correct by fluke, however the evidence available did not support the conclusion, so the "scientists" cheated. Not the first time in the history of science I might add. Being obese, the single largest health problem in the western world, is clearly an unhealthy thing and over consumption of "fats" is certainly a contributing factor. Dweeb ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.557 ************************