INFO-VAX Sat, 17 Nov 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 629 Contents: Re: "Latch" style Batch Queue Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Re: Converting serial I/O to ethernet I/O Re: Converting serial I/O to ethernet I/O Re: Filezilla connection Re: Mein Kulturkampf Re: system constants in COBOL Re: system constants in COBOL Re: system constants in COBOL Re: system constants in COBOL Re: system constants in COBOL Re: X11 in a browser? Re: X11 in a browser? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:21:08 -0700 From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: "Latch" style Batch Queue Message-ID: <13jscvlj30f6jc0@corp.supernews.com> David, Not only did this work, but it was simple and elegant. I ended up creating two generic queues and added two lines of code to our overnight processing to move any jobs to the regular execution queues. Thanks, Mike Ober. "David J Dachtera" wrote in message news:47367FAC.9F9670D4@spam.comcast.net... > David J Dachtera wrote: >> >> "Michael D. Ober" wrote: >> > >> > Is there a way in VMS 8.3 to create a queue that when it is started, >> > will >> > only process the jobs in the queue at the time it's started, but then >> > hold >> > any additional jobs that are submitted until it starts again. >> > Basically, I >> > need to create a queue that will accumulate jobs during the day and >> > then >> > start after the system completes database cleanups at night and then >> > immediately stop. >> >> I'd tend to agree with those who suggest having a Generic Batch queue >> with no >> /GENERIC_TARGETS and no execution queues which accept jobs from generic >> queues >> (no /ENABLE_GENERIC on any execution queues). >> >> SUBMIT your jobs to that queue during the processing day. >> >> During your nightly procedures, ASSIGN/QUEUE/MERGE that queue to another >> Generic >> queue which has at least one execution queue as a /GENERIC_TARGET. You >> can use a >> WAIT loop and the PENDING_JOB_COUNT item of F$GETQUI() to wait until the >> first >> queue has "drained" into the second, then DEASSIGN/QUEUE the "holding" >> queue so >> it will accept new jobs and hold them until you again run the job to >> drain it >> into the other queue. >> >> I know - clear as mud, eh? > > Actually, having tried it here on my little Alpha, all you would really > need > might look like this: > > $ INIT/QUE/BATCH/START OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR1 > $ INIT/QUE/BATCH/START OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR2 > $ INIT/QUE/BATCH/START OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR- > /GENERIC=(OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR1,OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR2) > $ INIT/QUE/BATCH OVERNIGHT_TASKS/GENERIC > > That sets it up. > > Set up the jobs that run during the course of the day (on other queues) to > SUBMIT overnight processing to the OVERNIGHT_TASKS queue. > > Then, at the time of your choosing, have a scheduled job run a command > like > this: > > $ ASSIGN/MERGE OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR OVERNIGHT_TASKS > > That will move all of the jobs queued up on the OVERNIGHT_TASKS queue to > the > OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR queue, which will then distribute jobs to the > OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR1 and OVERNIGHT_EXECUTOR2 queues. On a two-node cluster, > one > queue on each node would help distribute the load. > > The OVERNIGHT_TASKS queue should always remain STOPped if you have any > batch > execution queues which are INITIALIZEd using /ENABLE_GENERIC (which is the > default). > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:07:01 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: In article <473DE134.7040407@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: {...snip...} >Well, if you expect to be in the area, drop me an e-mail and maybe we >can get together without waiting for TCF. We have a little more in >common than an interest in VMS. A1C for instance! :-) ;) Mine's at 6.1. However, I just got a call from my Dr. after a visit there yesterday and some blood work. My Hb AIc may be 6.1 but my PT/INR is way way way too high. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:20:26 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: On Nov 15, 8:34 pm, bradhamilton wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > [...] > > >> Yes, I've thought about the "small" APC units that I see for sale at > >> HW stores, but I've never experienced these problems until this week, > >> so I never saw a need for one. I guess I'll price some units (keeping > >> in mind that I need to match capacity with my estimated power draw > >> from the CPU, disks and disk shelves). My wife keeps asking me what I > >> want for Yule - perhaps I have a legitimate need... > > > "Disk Shelves" implies a rather large installation. How many VA for the > > whole thing? > > PWS433au: 100-120 VAC 5.5A (550-660 VA?) > 2 fully-populated BA356 (top-gun blue) shelves: 100-120 VAC 7.0A > (1400-1680 VA?) > > For an approximate total of: > > 1950-2340 VA > > Assuming my math is not too far off, then approximately $675-750 for an > APC rated at 2500 VA. > > Out of my price range as a mere hobbyist. :-( VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. You probably won't draw 2500 VA unless you power-up everything simultaneously. My 17" CRT monitor (when it's awake) draws as much as my system box (an LCD flat-panel is on my Dear Santa list;) You could probably buy two smaller UPS's for less than the cost of one large one. I have a 1600 watt and a 900 watt UPS (on two outlets, same 20amp circuit) in my "main" room with similar power requirements to yours (different equipment, but about the same draw.) I think I paid around $200US for the larger, and around $100 for the smaller. The batteries cost around $30 to replace (the large unit has 2 batteries) so if you can find the UPS' used you can save money. I've even connected two smaller units in series before to gain up-time and been lucky enough not to fry anything. (The UPS manufactures probably don't recommend doing that, though, although I've never seen a warning on any of the units I've bought saying not to do it. But then again, who reads that stuff anyway;-) If your need is to just smooth out transients rather than keep everything up during a long outage, you shouldn't have to spend a lot for the units. Electrical service, power supply, disk (or controller) and mother- board are the only things I've ever had fail that caused reboots (or crashes) and didn't leave some kind of trail. Disk problems usually present other symptoms, too. Power service problems have been the number one cause of "mysterious" behaviors I've seen and a UPS has usually made them go away. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:07:51 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <473E06A7.7030506@comcast.net> Doug Phillips wrote: > On Nov 15, 8:34 pm, bradhamilton wrote: > >>Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> >>[...] >> >> >>>>Yes, I've thought about the "small" APC units that I see for sale at >>>>HW stores, but I've never experienced these problems until this week, >>>>so I never saw a need for one. I guess I'll price some units (keeping >>>>in mind that I need to match capacity with my estimated power draw >>>>from the CPU, disks and disk shelves). My wife keeps asking me what I >>>>want for Yule - perhaps I have a legitimate need... >>> >>>"Disk Shelves" implies a rather large installation. How many VA for the >>>whole thing? >> >>PWS433au: 100-120 VAC 5.5A (550-660 VA?) >>2 fully-populated BA356 (top-gun blue) shelves: 100-120 VAC 7.0A >>(1400-1680 VA?) >> >>For an approximate total of: >> >>1950-2340 VA >> >>Assuming my math is not too far off, then approximately $675-750 for an >>APC rated at 2500 VA. >> >>Out of my price range as a mere hobbyist. :-( > > > VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. You probably won't draw 2500 > VA unless you power-up everything simultaneously. My 17" CRT monitor > (when it's awake) draws as much as my system box (an LCD flat-panel is > on my Dear Santa list;) > > You could probably buy two smaller UPS's for less than the cost of one > large one. I have a 1600 watt and a 900 watt UPS (on two outlets, same > 20amp circuit) in my "main" room with similar power requirements to > yours (different equipment, but about the same draw.) I think I paid > around $200US for the larger, and around $100 for the smaller. The > batteries cost around $30 to replace (the large unit has 2 batteries) > so if you can find the UPS' used you can save money. I've even > connected two smaller units in series before to gain up-time and been > lucky enough not to fry anything. (The UPS manufactures probably don't > recommend doing that, though, although I've never seen a warning on > any of the units I've bought saying not to do it. But then again, who > reads that stuff anyway;-) > Some of the larger units make provision for an external battery pack to give you extended run time. I have one such unit: SmartUPS 700 (from memory). I imagine that a lot of the others could be kludged to take external battery packs for extended run time. I don't think I would want to try charging such external battery packs from a kludged unit! Note that automobile batteries are NOT suitable for this service. The application requires so called "deep drain" batteries which are very different internally from automobile batteries. A major oil company found this out the hard way years ago. A lightning strike took out the primary power at one of their refineries and what should have been a minor inconvenience turned into a major disaster. The UPSs failed left and right, because automobile batteries had been installed, and did not give them the time needed for a clean shut down or to bring up auxiliary power. They lost the steam boiler almost immediately which meant that, among other things, they couldn't vaporize the "crud" prior to "flaring it off". Instead the crud dribbled onto the ground and made a major environmental mess! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:37:28 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <047681ee-f6c0-4d9e-8906-ad49ef25aa33@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Nov 16, 3:07 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Nov 15, 8:34 pm, bradhamilton wrote: > > >>Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > >>[...] > > >>>>Yes, I've thought about the "small" APC units that I see for sale at > >>>>HW stores, but I've never experienced these problems until this week, > >>>>so I never saw a need for one. I guess I'll price some units (keeping > >>>>in mind that I need to match capacity with my estimated power draw > >>>>from the CPU, disks and disk shelves). My wife keeps asking me what I > >>>>want for Yule - perhaps I have a legitimate need... > > >>>"Disk Shelves" implies a rather large installation. How many VA for the > >>>whole thing? > > >>PWS433au: 100-120 VAC 5.5A (550-660 VA?) > >>2 fully-populated BA356 (top-gun blue) shelves: 100-120 VAC 7.0A > >>(1400-1680 VA?) > > >>For an approximate total of: > > >>1950-2340 VA > > >>Assuming my math is not too far off, then approximately $675-750 for an > >>APC rated at 2500 VA. > > >>Out of my price range as a mere hobbyist. :-( > > > VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > > draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. You probably won't draw 2500 > > VA unless you power-up everything simultaneously. My 17" CRT monitor > > (when it's awake) draws as much as my system box (an LCD flat-panel is > > on my Dear Santa list;) > > > You could probably buy two smaller UPS's for less than the cost of one > > large one. I have a 1600 watt and a 900 watt UPS (on two outlets, same > > 20amp circuit) in my "main" room with similar power requirements to > > yours (different equipment, but about the same draw.) I think I paid > > around $200US for the larger, and around $100 for the smaller. The > > batteries cost around $30 to replace (the large unit has 2 batteries) > > so if you can find the UPS' used you can save money. I've even > > connected two smaller units in series before to gain up-time and been > > lucky enough not to fry anything. (The UPS manufactures probably don't > > recommend doing that, though, although I've never seen a warning on > > any of the units I've bought saying not to do it. But then again, who > > reads that stuff anyway;-) > > Some of the larger units make provision for an external battery pack to > give you extended run time. I have one such unit: SmartUPS 700 (from > memory). I imagine that a lot of the others could be kludged to take > external battery packs for extended run time. I don't think I would > want to try charging such external battery packs from a kludged unit! > Note that automobile batteries are NOT suitable for this service. The > application requires so called "deep drain" batteries which are very > different internally from automobile batteries. > The one's I've seen of that size used Marine batteries or the like. > A major oil company found this out the hard way years ago. A lightning > strike took out the primary power at one of their refineries and what > should have been a minor inconvenience turned into a major disaster. > The UPSs failed left and right, because automobile batteries had been > installed, and did not give them the time needed for a clean shut down > or to bring up auxiliary power. They lost the steam boiler almost > immediately which meant that, among other things, they couldn't vaporize > the "crud" prior to "flaring it off". Instead the crud dribbled onto > the ground and made a major environmental mess! What I did was just plug one UPS into the outlet, and plug the other into that one. The one time I had a power outage with that setup, ISTR the outlet-side one drained first, then the second one, but that was a few beers^H^H^H^H^H years ago so I might be misremembering. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:54:40 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <07111615544039_202002A8@antinode.org> From: Doug Phillips > VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. [...] If you believe this, you'd be wise to avoid offering advice (or taking your own) on electrical topics. I'd offer a more detailed explanation, but books already exist, and it is, in a sense, complex, and requires a bit of imagination. It is true that ratings on equipment are normally maxima, so unless your box has the worst-case load of options, the actual power (real or otherwise) will tend to be less than the rating. Measurement under normal operating conditions is often valuable in determining what's true. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:09:13 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <473E1509.7020600@comcast.net> Doug Phillips wrote: > On Nov 16, 3:07 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > >>Doug Phillips wrote: >> >>>On Nov 15, 8:34 pm, bradhamilton wrote: >> >>>>Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> >>>>[...] >>> >>>>>>Yes, I've thought about the "small" APC units that I see for sale at >>>>>>HW stores, but I've never experienced these problems until this week, >>>>>>so I never saw a need for one. I guess I'll price some units (keeping >>>>>>in mind that I need to match capacity with my estimated power draw >>>>> >>>>>>from the CPU, disks and disk shelves). My wife keeps asking me what I >>>>> >>>>>>want for Yule - perhaps I have a legitimate need... >>>>> >>>>>"Disk Shelves" implies a rather large installation. How many VA for the >>>>>whole thing? >>>> >>>>PWS433au: 100-120 VAC 5.5A (550-660 VA?) >>>>2 fully-populated BA356 (top-gun blue) shelves: 100-120 VAC 7.0A >>>>(1400-1680 VA?) >>> >>>>For an approximate total of: >>> >>>>1950-2340 VA >>> >>>>Assuming my math is not too far off, then approximately $675-750 for an >>>>APC rated at 2500 VA. >>> >>>>Out of my price range as a mere hobbyist. :-( >>> >>>VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average >>>draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. You probably won't draw 2500 >>>VA unless you power-up everything simultaneously. My 17" CRT monitor >>>(when it's awake) draws as much as my system box (an LCD flat-panel is >>>on my Dear Santa list;) >> >>>You could probably buy two smaller UPS's for less than the cost of one >>>large one. I have a 1600 watt and a 900 watt UPS (on two outlets, same >>>20amp circuit) in my "main" room with similar power requirements to >>>yours (different equipment, but about the same draw.) I think I paid >>>around $200US for the larger, and around $100 for the smaller. The >>>batteries cost around $30 to replace (the large unit has 2 batteries) >>>so if you can find the UPS' used you can save money. I've even >>>connected two smaller units in series before to gain up-time and been >>>lucky enough not to fry anything. (The UPS manufactures probably don't >>>recommend doing that, though, although I've never seen a warning on >>>any of the units I've bought saying not to do it. But then again, who >>>reads that stuff anyway;-) >> >>Some of the larger units make provision for an external battery pack to >>give you extended run time. I have one such unit: SmartUPS 700 (from >>memory). I imagine that a lot of the others could be kludged to take >>external battery packs for extended run time. I don't think I would >>want to try charging such external battery packs from a kludged unit! >>Note that automobile batteries are NOT suitable for this service. The >>application requires so called "deep drain" batteries which are very >>different internally from automobile batteries. >> > > > The one's I've seen of that size used Marine batteries or the like. > > >>A major oil company found this out the hard way years ago. A lightning >>strike took out the primary power at one of their refineries and what >>should have been a minor inconvenience turned into a major disaster. >>The UPSs failed left and right, because automobile batteries had been >>installed, and did not give them the time needed for a clean shut down >>or to bring up auxiliary power. They lost the steam boiler almost >>immediately which meant that, among other things, they couldn't vaporize >>the "crud" prior to "flaring it off". Instead the crud dribbled onto >>the ground and made a major environmental mess! > > > What I did was just plug one UPS into the outlet, and plug the other > into that one. The one time I had a power outage with that setup, ISTR > the outlet-side one drained first, then the second one, but that was a > few beers^H^H^H^H^H years ago so I might be misremembering. That sounds as if it should work but I don't think it would work as well as having the same number of "ampere-hours" in deep drain batteries connected to one UPS. Deep drain batteries are the type used for powering marine equipment, house trailers, etc. Automobile batteries are primarily designed to start the engine in sub zero weather. That means they must supply maybe 200 amperes at 12V for the few seconds it takes to start the engine. They aren't so great if you require 15 amperes at 12V for two hours. It's a matter of using the right tool for the job. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:01:39 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <473E2153.4080604@comcast.net> Doug Phillips wrote: > On Nov 16, 3:54 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > >>From: Doug Phillips >> >>>VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average >>>draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. [...] >> >> If you believe this, you'd be wise to avoid offering advice (or >>taking your own) on electrical topics. I'd offer a more detailed >>explanation, but books already exist, and it is, in a sense, complex, >>and requires a bit of imagination. >> > > > > 65% is a "rule of thumb." The calculation to arrive at actual numbers > is a bit more involved, but it isn't really "complex". > > Ohm's law and the power formula involves simple math --- at least it > did when I took electronics and worked in that trade before getting > into software. I even remember some of the mnemonic rhymes. Ohm's law is not strictly applicable to alternating current except in a purely resistive circuit! With AC both capacitive and inductive reactance must be taken into account in addition to pure resistance. So E=IR and P=EI=I^2R for a light bulb but not necessarily for an electric motor or any other reactive load. Some electric motors can be made to appear as a capacitive load and the power company may give you big discounts for running one. I believe it helps balance out the inductive loads created by other customers. For further details, consult an electrical engineer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:43:31 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <20d2113b-d139-4701-8e92-23926b6dbcc1@d61g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Nov 16, 3:54 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: Doug Phillips > > > VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > > draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. [...] > > If you believe this, you'd be wise to avoid offering advice (or > taking your own) on electrical topics. I'd offer a more detailed > explanation, but books already exist, and it is, in a sense, complex, > and requires a bit of imagination. > 65% is a "rule of thumb." The calculation to arrive at actual numbers is a bit more involved, but it isn't really "complex". Ohm's law and the power formula involves simple math --- at least it did when I took electronics and worked in that trade before getting into software. I even remember some of the mnemonic rhymes. Power draw (wattage) varies with resistance (current and voltage being constant), and resistance within a circuit will change under various conditions. If you find a tag that shows both VA and Watts, it will very often show *roughly* a 65% relationship of Watts to VA. As with most "rules of thumb" they are exact. You can always run the thing and measure it or find a lab-test result if you want real numbers. > It is true that ratings on equipment are normally maxima, so unless > your box has the worst-case load of options, the actual power (real or > otherwise) will tend to be less than the rating. Measurement under > normal operating conditions is often valuable in determining what's > true. > Whatever. That's about what I said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:58:52 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <1497b52f-54b1-4682-8f31-c8653989df95@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Nov 16, 4:43 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Nov 16, 3:54 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > > From: Doug Phillips > > > > VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > > > draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. [...] > > > If you believe this, you'd be wise to avoid offering advice (or > > taking your own) on electrical topics. I'd offer a more detailed > > explanation, but books already exist, and it is, in a sense, complex, > > and requires a bit of imagination. > > 65% is a "rule of thumb." The calculation to arrive at actual numbers > is a bit more involved, but it isn't really "complex". > > Ohm's law and the power formula involves simple math --- at least it > did when I took electronics and worked in that trade before getting > into software. I even remember some of the mnemonic rhymes. > > Power draw (wattage) varies with resistance (current and voltage being > constant), and resistance within a circuit will change under various > conditions. If you find a tag that shows both VA and Watts, it will > very often show *roughly* a 65% relationship of Watts to VA. As with > most "rules of thumb" they are exact. Of course I meant "aren't" exact. Like my typing... > > You can always run the thing and measure it or find a lab-test result > if you want real numbers. > > > It is true that ratings on equipment are normally maxima, so unless > > your box has the worst-case load of options, the actual power (real or > > otherwise) will tend to be less than the rating. Measurement under > > normal operating conditions is often valuable in determining what's > > true. > > Whatever. That's about what I said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:21:05 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <4fd3e39e-d9fd-43b5-9f73-d92400402b8d@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Nov 16, 4:09 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Nov 16, 3:07 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > wrote: > > >>Doug Phillips wrote: > > >>>On Nov 15, 8:34 pm, bradhamilton wrote: > > >>>>Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > >>>>[...] > > >>>>>>Yes, I've thought about the "small" APC units that I see for sale at > >>>>>>HW stores, but I've never experienced these problems until this week, > >>>>>>so I never saw a need for one. I guess I'll price some units (keeping > >>>>>>in mind that I need to match capacity with my estimated power draw > > >>>>>>from the CPU, disks and disk shelves). My wife keeps asking me what I > > >>>>>>want for Yule - perhaps I have a legitimate need... > > >>>>>"Disk Shelves" implies a rather large installation. How many VA for the > >>>>>whole thing? > > >>>>PWS433au: 100-120 VAC 5.5A (550-660 VA?) > >>>>2 fully-populated BA356 (top-gun blue) shelves: 100-120 VAC 7.0A > >>>>(1400-1680 VA?) > > >>>>For an approximate total of: > > >>>>1950-2340 VA > > >>>>Assuming my math is not too far off, then approximately $675-750 for an > >>>>APC rated at 2500 VA. > > >>>>Out of my price range as a mere hobbyist. :-( > > >>>VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > >>>draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. You probably won't draw 2500 > >>>VA unless you power-up everything simultaneously. My 17" CRT monitor > >>>(when it's awake) draws as much as my system box (an LCD flat-panel is > >>>on my Dear Santa list;) > > >>>You could probably buy two smaller UPS's for less than the cost of one > >>>large one. I have a 1600 watt and a 900 watt UPS (on two outlets, same > >>>20amp circuit) in my "main" room with similar power requirements to > >>>yours (different equipment, but about the same draw.) I think I paid > >>>around $200US for the larger, and around $100 for the smaller. The > >>>batteries cost around $30 to replace (the large unit has 2 batteries) > >>>so if you can find the UPS' used you can save money. I've even > >>>connected two smaller units in series before to gain up-time and been > >>>lucky enough not to fry anything. (The UPS manufactures probably don't > >>>recommend doing that, though, although I've never seen a warning on > >>>any of the units I've bought saying not to do it. But then again, who > >>>reads that stuff anyway;-) > > >>Some of the larger units make provision for an external battery pack to > >>give you extended run time. I have one such unit: SmartUPS 700 (from > >>memory). I imagine that a lot of the others could be kludged to take > >>external battery packs for extended run time. I don't think I would > >>want to try charging such external battery packs from a kludged unit! > >>Note that automobile batteries are NOT suitable for this service. The > >>application requires so called "deep drain" batteries which are very > >>different internally from automobile batteries. > > > The one's I've seen of that size used Marine batteries or the like. > > >>A major oil company found this out the hard way years ago. A lightning > >>strike took out the primary power at one of their refineries and what > >>should have been a minor inconvenience turned into a major disaster. > >>The UPSs failed left and right, because automobile batteries had been > >>installed, and did not give them the time needed for a clean shut down > >>or to bring up auxiliary power. They lost the steam boiler almost > >>immediately which meant that, among other things, they couldn't vaporize > >>the "crud" prior to "flaring it off". Instead the crud dribbled onto > >>the ground and made a major environmental mess! > > > What I did was just plug one UPS into the outlet, and plug the other > > into that one. The one time I had a power outage with that setup, ISTR > > the outlet-side one drained first, then the second one, but that was a > > few beers^H^H^H^H^H years ago so I might be misremembering. > > That sounds as if it should work but I don't think it would work as well > as having the same number of "ampere-hours" in deep drain batteries > connected to one UPS. > The SOHO size of UPS you usually find in retail stores have batteries considerably smaller than a car or full-sized marine battery. The higher rated units often just have multiples of smaller batteries either wired together or in "pack." The one I most recently replaced was a BB BP7-12(12v,7AH/20HR) and that's a fairly common battery used in less-than-industrial-sized units. > Deep drain batteries are the type used for powering marine equipment, > house trailers, etc. Automobile batteries are primarily designed to > start the engine in sub zero weather. That means they must supply maybe > 200 amperes at 12V for the few seconds it takes to start the engine. > They aren't so great if you require 15 amperes at 12V for two hours. > > It's a matter of using the right tool for the job. Or you find a good rock if you don't have a hammer and your tent's falling down around you;-) (I should know not to get into UPS discussions: the last time I did here some bot-guy jumped all over me about how UPS' were worthless and the only thing that works is some brand of full service-entrance protection he was hawking.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:15:53 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <07111617155390_202002A8@antinode.org> From: Doug Phillips > On Nov 16, 3:54 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > From: Doug Phillips > > > > > VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > > > draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. [...] > > > > If you believe this, you'd be wise to avoid offering advice (or > > taking your own) on electrical topics. I'd offer a more detailed > > explanation, but books already exist, and it is, in a sense, complex, > > and requires a bit of imagination. > 65% is a "rule of thumb." The calculation to arrive at actual numbers > is a bit more involved, but it isn't really "complex". True, rules of thumb are not complex. (As I feared, those complex/imaginary references were wasted here.) > Ohm's law and the power formula involves simple math --- at least it > did when I took electronics and worked in that trade before getting > into software. I even remember some of the mnemonic rhymes. Apparently your exploration of the theory stopped at DC (or AC with resistive loads). For a quick overview of what you apparently never got to, try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power Look for the "complex" part. > Power draw (wattage) varies with resistance (current and voltage being > constant), and resistance within a circuit will change under various > conditions. If power varies, then current _and_ voltage _can't_ be constant. > If you find a tag that shows both VA and Watts, it will > very often show *roughly* a 65% relationship of Watts to VA. As with > most "rules of thumb" they are exact. I'll assume that there should have been a "not" in there. And if you have a perfect capacitor or inductor (or one of each), you'll always use exactly zero (real) power, but you can get all the reactive power (VA) you want. AC analysis is literally "complex", and, as you apparently don't know this, I still claim that you should refrain from offering advice on the topic. > You can always run the thing and measure it or find a lab-test result > if you want real numbers. Or complex numbers, if you have the right equipment. Actual values, in any case. > > It is true that ratings on equipment are normally maxima, so unless > > your box has the worst-case load of options, the actual power (real or > > otherwise) will tend to be less than the rating. Measurement under > > normal operating conditions is often valuable in determining what's > > true. > > Whatever. That's about what I said. Unfortunately not. Not knowing something is not nearly so risky as not knowing where the boundary lies between what you know and what you don't know. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:59:34 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: On Nov 16, 5:01 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Nov 16, 3:54 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > >>From: Doug Phillips > > >>>VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average > >>>draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. [...] > > >> If you believe this, you'd be wise to avoid offering advice (or > >>taking your own) on electrical topics. I'd offer a more detailed > >>explanation, but books already exist, and it is, in a sense, complex, > >>and requires a bit of imagination. > > > 65% is a "rule of thumb." The calculation to arrive at actual numbers > > is a bit more involved, but it isn't really "complex". > > > Ohm's law and the power formula involves simple math --- at least it > > did when I took electronics and worked in that trade before getting > > into software. I even remember some of the mnemonic rhymes. > > Ohm's law is not strictly applicable to alternating current except in a > purely resistive circuit! With AC both capacitive and inductive > reactance must be taken into account in addition to pure resistance. > > So E=IR and P=EI=I^2R for a light bulb but not necessarily for an > electric motor or any other reactive load. Some electric motors can be > made to appear as a capacitive load and the power company may give you > big discounts for running one. I believe it helps balance out the > inductive loads created by other customers. For further details, consult > an electrical engineer. Ohm's law for AC isn't too different; E = IZ where E & I are the oscillating voltage (usually V rather than E) and current, and Z is the complex impedance for the oscillation frequency. Yes, AC is more complicated than DC, and does get more complicated from there, but doesn't most everything? Watts = VA, (twinkle twinkle little star, power equals I squared R --- dang, now I'll have that running through my brain. At least I've gotten the resistor color code jingle out of my mind.) When VA and Watts are both shown on an appliance tag, and they're different numbers, VA is used to indicate peak, and Watts is used to indicate the average draw; the amount of power consumption you're most likely to see on your electric meter if the thing runs all of the time. On to better things. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:20:38 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <07111618203854_202002A8@antinode.org> From: Doug Phillips > [...] When VA and > Watts are both shown on an appliance tag, and they're different > numbers, VA is used to indicate peak, and Watts is used to indicate > the average draw; the amount of power consumption you're most likely > to see on your electric meter if the thing runs all of the time. This is simply not true. > On to better things. Good plan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:08:31 -0500 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <473E3F0F.7070309@comcast.net> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: Doug Phillips > >> VA and the Amp rating on your tags are peak draw. Watts are average >> draw. Figure Watts at around 65% of VA. [...] > > If you believe this, you'd be wise to avoid offering advice (or > taking your own) on electrical topics. I'd offer a more detailed > explanation, but books already exist, and it is, in a sense, complex, > and requires a bit of imagination. > > It is true that ratings on equipment are normally maxima, so unless > your box has the worst-case load of options, the actual power (real or > otherwise) will tend to be less than the rating. Measurement under > normal operating conditions is often valuable in determining what's > true. I was trying to imagine a worst-case scenario, and plan accordingly; I suspected the my 2500 VA figure might be high, but better safe than sorry, I suppose. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:16:36 -0500 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <473E40F4.909@comcast.net> Volker Halle wrote: > Brad, > > what's the setting of the console environment variable AUTO_ACTION ? > > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETENV("AUTO_ACTION") > > If it's set to HALT, the system would remain on the console prompt > after a powerfail. > > If it's set to BOOT, the system will boot after a powerfail OR an > unexpected HALT instruction issued in kernel mode. > > If it's set to RESTART, the system will restart after an unexpected > HALT, but write a restart-crash ! And it will boot after a powerfail > (if memory contents has not been preserved). > > For maximum availability and troubleshooting information, consider > setting > >>>> set auto_action restart > > To make sure your dumpfile setup is correct and works, try forcing a > system crash. Type CTRL-P at the console or press the HALT button, to > get the the console prompt (>>>). Then type >>> CRASH and watch the > system write the dump and boot. If all goes well, ther WILL be a CLUE > file and an entry in CLUE$HISTORY afterwards... > > Volker. > Just to answer a couple of questions here - auto_action is set to restart, and has been for as long as I remember. When I was coming home from the "daily crash", the system was already back up and completing its various shadow merges. Someone else asked about a serial console, which I do have set up via reverse TELNET via a DECserver 90. I sometimes (not always) have a TELNET session into the DECserver from my linux laptop, and monitor the console port in that way. The first two days, I had suspended my laptop while away at work, so I was not able to "capture" any console output. The day of the most recent crash, I had deliberately left my laptop connected to my console, and did not suspend the laptop while at work. When I came home, there was *no* console output at the time of the crash, just some OPCOM messages (unrelated) from many hours earlier. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:26:12 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <3da9fffa-6aac-4b4d-a7f1-dbd634a149d4@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Nov 16, 6:20 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: Doug Phillips > > > [...] When VA and > > Watts are both shown on an appliance tag, and they're different > > numbers, VA is used to indicate peak, and Watts is used to indicate > > the average draw; the amount of power consumption you're most likely > > to see on your electric meter if the thing runs all of the time. > > This is simply not true. > Maybe you came in late. I'm talking about the power consumption of the appliance (the computer), not the power rating of the UPS. The rating tag on a UPS or even a power stip is *not* the same and it's *not* what I'm talking about, although it should give both and in and out ratings. You need to know or guesstimate the power consumption of the "appliance" to determine the rated-size of UPS you need to buy. Wondering if I've just dreamed this, I checked various *appliance* rating tags (without pulling things out or crawling behind something) and only found one (on a TV) where VA and Watts are both listed: 120 VAC 60 HZ 450VA 240WATTS Now, how do *you* interpret that? (Quite a few of the ones I looked at just show Volts and Amps and expect us to know how to multiply.) > > On to better things. > > Good plan. > Executing plan....now....now....now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:35:09 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: [snip] > Electrical service, power supply, disk (or controller) and mother- > board are the only things I've ever had fail that caused reboots (or > crashes) and didn't leave some kind of trail. Disk problems usually > present other symptoms, too. Power service problems have been the > number one cause of "mysterious" behaviors I've seen and a UPS has > usually made them go away. One of my customer sites was having occasional random reboots. (About once a month.) Only one system was affected of the 6 on site (and hundreds of others we have nothing to do with.) Telco, giant UPS, standby generators, the works. I think it was memory or a memory daughter card they ultimately replaced and the reboots stopped happening. I don't remember if this was an ES40 or an AlphaServer 4100. And I could be misremembering and confusing this incident with another one (at the same site), with one situation creating crash dumps that the field service org (not HP) couldn't diagnose, and the other situation causing reboots without a dump. And anyway, I think this did not ultimate turn out to be the cause, but it seemed a reasonable hypothesis at the time:: A bad OPC card or cable. The theory was an intermittent short was causing the firmware to think someone had pressed the HALT or RESET button on the front! It seemed like such a nice theory that I've been saving it. Maybe you've got the bad OPC. Try reseating the ribbon cables if possible, and or wiggling while the system is up to see if it causes a crash. Or maybe you've (Brad) got a cat that likes sleeping on the keyboard and presses ctrl/P followed by B! HTH -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:38:59 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <07111619385993_202002A8@antinode.org> From: Doug Phillips > On Nov 16, 6:20 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > From: Doug Phillips > > > > > [...] When VA and > > > Watts are both shown on an appliance tag, and they're different > > > numbers, VA is used to indicate peak, and Watts is used to indicate > > > the average draw; the amount of power consumption you're most likely > > > to see on your electric meter if the thing runs all of the time. > > > > This is simply not true. > Maybe you came in late. Oh, I wish. How I wish. > I'm talking about the power consumption of the > appliance (the computer), not the power rating of the UPS. Same here. > The rating > tag on a UPS or even a power stip is *not* the same and it's *not* > what I'm talking about, although it should give both and in and out > ratings. You need to know or guesstimate the power consumption of the > "appliance" to determine the rated-size of UPS you need to buy. Yes, power strips don't consume power (give or take an indicator light, or a bit of circuitry in a fancy one). I'm pretty sure that I never said anything like that. > Wondering if I've just dreamed this, I checked various *appliance* > rating tags (without pulling things out or crawling behind something) > and only found one (on a TV) where VA and Watts are both listed: > > 120 VAC 60 HZ 450VA 240WATTS I never said that appliances couldn't have different watt (real power) and VA (reactive power) ratings. > Now, how do *you* interpret that? Not knowing what the thing is, I'd say that it probably has a motor or other inductive load device inside (as capacitive loads are relatively unusual). I'd also say that if I were trying to estimate its cost to run, I'd use the 240 watt figure, because that's how my bill is calculated (that is, based on real power). On the other hand, if I were deciding how fat the wire leading to the thing needed to be, I'd use the 450 VA figure (over 120 volts), because that's what'll determine the current in the wire (that is, 3.75 amps, not 2.0 amps). There's nothing here related to peak anything versus average anything. If you don't understand how 120 volts, 3.75 amps, 240 watts, and 450 volt-amps can coexist (yes, steady-state), and apparently you don't, then you need a better education in AC circuit analysis. (This is merely ignorance, not evidence of a character flaw, but if you keep insisting that you really _do_ understand this stuff, then you'll be skating on thin ice in that regard, too.) > (Quite a few of the ones I looked at just show Volts and Amps and > expect us to know how to multiply.) Or they offer only resistive (or small) loads, and there is no difference (or it's so small that no one cares about it). They may also expect you to know when you're allowed to do the simple multiplication and when you're not. > > > On to better things. > > > > Good plan. > Executing plan....now....now....now Success seems to elude you, but please keep trying. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:10:12 -0500 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: "Mysterious" system crashes Message-ID: <473E4D84.4050602@comcast.net> John Santos wrote: [...] > Or maybe you've (Brad) got a cat that likes sleeping on the keyboard > and presses ctrl/P followed by B! I've got the cat: But he doesn't like the noise the system makes, and stays away from that room, even when I have the door open: Apologies for the lack of quality; I have no camera, and this picture was taken with my cell-phone camera in a relatively dark room. > HTH > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 2007 14:08:03 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Converting serial I/O to ethernet I/O Message-ID: In article <96874356-8dd3-4000-81bd-fa43ca05128b@b32g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: > > > The manual says it uses the the same commands over RS-232 and > Ethernet. Over Ethernet, it uses TCP/IP and port 9880. The you have to replace the exiting I/O calls with TCP/IP code to open a socket on port 9880 and read and write that socket. Doing this in C using the C socket library is much easier than doing it using $QIO calls in any language. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:01:17 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Converting serial I/O to ethernet I/O Message-ID: <4f6a4$473e051f$cef8887a$22560@TEKSAVVY.COM> tadamsmar wrote: > The manual says it uses the the same commands over RS-232 and > Ethernet. Over Ethernet, it uses TCP/IP and port 9880. You need to determine if it is raw TCPIP, some Telnet protocol or raw UDP. Telnet is *almost* raw, but it has a few escape sequences to send certain control characters transparently. If your serial IO uses $QIO, it can be converted to TCPIP without major surgery. However, the TCPIP implementation on VMS does NOT support timeouts like the serial driver does. So if your app makes use of SS$M_TIMEOUT (just look for TIMEOUT), then you need to write your own jacket QIO routines that do a synchronous read with an event flag, and a set a time with another event flag, and then wait for any of the 2 flags to be set ($WAITEF), and if it is the timer flag that gets set first, you know you have a timeout condition. Handling disconnection is not as obvious. Download and print the TCPIP Services System Services and C Socket programming manual, and then look in the sys$examples as you will have examples there. If your app is AST driven without any timeouts, you can pretty well function the same way as before, with only the call setup being vastly different. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:51:12 -0600 From: David Douthitt Subject: Re: Filezilla connection Message-ID: In article <07111212523127_202002A8@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org says... > From: Kevin Handy > > > Or, is there a simple FTP gui program that I can use instead? > > Long ago, I had some success using SmartFTP ("http://smartftp.com/"). I've just tried Firefox, and its FTP client works fine. Likewise, Internet Explorer. So does the commercial Reflections FTP client, and WinSCP works fine (but only in SFTP mode). Does this help? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:30:38 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Mein Kulturkampf Message-ID: Hi Jan-Erik, > Both this (and the similar non-graphic tool you showed before) > *ARE* realy nice. Absolutely. My plan is to talk about them > at a customer (togther with a quick summary from the VMS > Tech Upd days) in a couple of weeks. Glad you like them! Also happy to help in any way once you get your VMS hobbyist kit up and running. > > 2) Itanium port.... > > Logical step, I guess... Others say that would be a Linux port :-( But I'm a glutton for punishment :-) > Here I'm completly lost. I've no idea what so ever > what you're talking about... Having just re-read my post I have to say that you could be forgiven for not deciphering my garbled gibberish :-) Here are the points I was trying to make: - 1) If you find the gSOAP philosophy to be the most appropriate for your SOAP *client* needs then that's great, but there are alternative SOAP client tools/strategies available for VMS (that I can't name off the top of my head, but I'm sure are being used by others in this newsgroup) that your HP support rep should make you aware of. 2) HP/VMS (for reasons only known to themselves) have been covertly funding the gSOAP *server* port to VMS in seemingly schizophrenic competition with the Web Services Integration Toolkit (and, to a lesser extent, Tier3). How can they possibly ask customers to invest development dollars and staff retraining on this Waste of Substantial Investment in Technology, when evidently they have been grooming its gSOAP successor for some time? If this is, in fact, not the case and what we are witnessing here are just some rogue employees or loose cannons cracking under the sword of democlese then I, for one, would firmly expect them to be reigned in, or out, as the case may be. But then, sadly, it appears that the unaccountable rabble at HP/VMS get to do whatever they like, whenever they like :-( Which hymn sheet are we on today? How much did WSIT + BridgeWorks cost again? Cheers Richard Maher "Jan-Erik Söderholm" wrote in message news:x6iZi.105$R_4.76@newsb.telia.net... > Richard Maher wrote: > > > Hi Jan-Erik, > > > The following are our priorities/desires at Tier3... > > > > 1) Investigate/produce an Adobe Flash client to illustrate to potential > > customers how easy it would be to expose their VMS data and business logic > > to modern browser based animated GUIs.... > > Both this (and the similar non-graphic tool you showed before) > *ARE* realy nice. Absolutely. My plan is to talk about them > at a customer (togther with a quick summary from the VMS > Tech Upd days) in a couple of weeks. > > > 2) Itanium port.... > > Logical step, I guess... > > >> It's only aprox 6 meg and 31 files. Actualy only *6* files > >> if you exclude the samples directories. 2 EXE's, 1 .H > >> file and 3 OLB's. That's it. The remaining 25 files are > >> a bunch of COM and .C files in 4 sample directories. > > > > OK, so far they've only invaded Poland. So how bad could it get eh? They're > > all bloody Prussians anyway :-) and there's absolutely no reason to expect > > that filth to head for the Sudatanland. > > > > For fuck sake Jan-Erik, I'll bet you whatever you like that right now in > > some grotty CHCH sweat-shop :-) the gSOAP Garbage Collector is being > > debugged as we speak! > > Here I'm completly lost. I've no idea what so ever > what you're talking about... > > Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 2007 12:51:33 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: system constants in COBOL Message-ID: In article <8K2RrSXbnjWT@cuebid.zko.hp.com>, brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes: > John Santos writes: >> Should I SPR this? > > Yeah, fill out that form in triplicate :-) It sounds like Rob does not believe we have any of those forms left :-) > Seriously, this should be escalated. I'll see what I can do informally > do have someone take a poke at this, but it's always easier to have a > customer complaint. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 2007 14:15:02 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: system constants in COBOL Message-ID: In article , Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > > I can not believe the value for IO$_REWIND has ever changed. All the IO codes were re-arranged, I think between VMS 2.5 and 3.0. IIRC, the notes said the work was done because of a change to the approach in how IO modifiers were done (IO$M_x and such). Some fellow tried my code afer I updated VMS and before I rebuilt the code. $QIO to do a rewind caused an error insisting that the operation failed because his tape was mounted read-only. He was silly enough to put in the write-ring, causing loss of data. I verified the first step, but didn't put in the write-ring; then I rebuilt the code just like the release notes said and everything worked fine. What part of the Release Notes do you find so difficult to believe? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:41:36 +1100 From: Jim Duff Subject: Re: system constants in COBOL Message-ID: <473e1ca1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au> Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > On Nov 14, 6:55 pm, Jim Duff wrote: >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> I've had to use: >> >>> 01 blah PIC 9(4) COMP VALUE IS EXTERNAL LNM$_STRING. > >> For some obscure reason best known to the COBOL compiler team, some >> system constants are resolved and some are not. > > Jim, that's total nonsense. You know better. > This has NOTHING to do with Cobol > It has everything with the linker and the system provide default > library STARLET > > [snip] > > The linker will happily do the same thing for a cobol generated > reference. > > Hein. > You're right, of course. I should have phrased it "best known to the engineering team that included sys$ssdef, sys$iodef, rms$globals, and obscure stuff like dtk$msgdef in starlet.olb without including all the rest". Is there some reason that not all defs are included in starlet? Programming in C all the time, I'm too used to #including defined values. It would be nice if a text library was supplied so you could perform this in COBOL (such as you can with BASIC, C, Pascal, and FORTRAN). The COBOL syntax is there (COPY text-name IN library-name) but the library doesn't exist. Perhaps, as is mentioned elsethread, it's because there is no SDL backend for COBOL. Jim. -- www.eight-cubed.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:54:36 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: system constants in COBOL Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <8K2RrSXbnjWT@cuebid.zko.hp.com>, brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes: > >>John Santos writes: > > >>>Should I SPR this? >> >>Yeah, fill out that form in triplicate :-) > Triplicate? That didn't sound right... I've got a folder with about 30 blank SPR forms in my desk... The newest ones (7-digit serial numbers) ARE triplicate. The oldest ones (#475961, etc.) are 7-copy forms with real carbon paper (hey, am I preventing global warming by sequestering these?) > > It sounds like Rob does not believe we have any of those forms left :-) > > >>Seriously, this should be escalated. I'll see what I can do informally >>do have someone take a poke at this, but it's always easier to have a >>customer complaint. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:19:44 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: system constants in COBOL Message-ID: Hi Brian, > Is there a way to include such literal values in COBOL? That is the way that I, and one or two others, do it (and have done for over twenty years). For those with the Tier3 Hobbyist kit, you can look through the t3$examples directory for .COM and .MAR files that also do compile-time ANDing and ORing of various flags. (There is also a copy at http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/ ) (I have included build_uars.com below as an example. And who could ever forget that masterful exhibition of Naming Standards when we had two completely different $IMPDEFs, one in STARLET and the other in LIB?) The only other thing that could be worth mentioning is that COBOL has only supported UNsigned integers since Alpha and you should be consistent when dropping the S from the "S9(9) comp." As far as finding some under-utilized HP/VMS employee(s) to type in a COBOL COPY file with a definition of every available system symbol goes, that shouldn't be a problem, but a stupid idea nonetheless. If you guys simply don't like COBOL then may I suggest that you just don't do it? The COBOL compiler will be spared your oafish fondling; you don't have to code in a language that you don't like; and the customer does not have to endure the product of your floundering. Sounds like a win, win, win? As far as "real" symbolic constants with compile-time resolution then hey, why not? (But I don't think many are losing too much sleep over it.) Cheers Richard Maher PS. Almost a whole week of VMS_relevant posts? Have to do something about that :-) BUILD_UARS.COM $! $! Procedure: BUILD_DEMO $! $! This command procedure builds and installs the DEMO_UARS shareable image $! for the Tier3 DEMO example. After this procedure has been run successfully $! the DEMO application can be registered in the Tier3 configuration file. $! $ SAY := WRITE SYS$OUTPUT $ REQD_PRIVS = "CMKRNL,SYSNAM" $ PREV_PRIVS = F$SETPRV(REQD_PRIVS) $ ON ERROR THEN GOTO FINI $ ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO FINI $ IF F$PRIVILEGE(REQD_PRIVS) THEN GOTO BUILD_IT $ SAY "You need (CMKRNL,SYSNAM) privilege to run this command file" $ GOTO FINI $! $BUILD_IT: $! $! Compile the source files. P1 is checked to see wheter debug is required. $ IF P1 .EQS. "Y" .OR. P1 .EQS. "y" $ THEN $ COBOL/NOALIGN/LIST/DEBUG/CONDITIONALS=D/NOOPTIMIZE DEMO_UARS.COB $ LINK_QUAL = "/DEBUG" $ ELSE $ COBOL/NOALIGN/LIST DEMO_UARS.COB $ LINK_QUAL = "" $ ENDIF $! $ CREATE QUIDEF.MAR ;+ ; Some of the external references in DEMO_UARS.COB will be unresolved ; at link-time because the linker won't find them in the default system ; libraries. This macro file is needed to resolve those references. ; ; Note: This is not a Tier3 requirement. This file is needed only because ; the DEMO User Access Routines need to talk to the job controller ; and use the persona system services. ;- .TITLE GETQUI External symbols and condition codes $QUIDEF GLOBAL $SJCDEF GLOBAL $JBCMSGDEF GLOBAL $ISSDEF GLOBAL .LIBRARY "T3$LIB" T3$DEF NOW_CLOSE == SEARCH_ALL_JOBS == .END ; $ MACRO QUIDEF.MAR $! $! We'll define the logical name LNK$LIBRARY to point to T3$USER so that $! the Tier3 system service library will be searched automatically. The $! T3$OBJECT library contains all of the Tier3 External Symbol and $! Status Code definitions, so we have to link to that also. $! $ DEFINE/USER LNK$LIBRARY T3$USER $ DEFINE/USER LNK$LIBRARY_1 T3$OBJECT $! $ LINK/SHARE'LINK_QUAL' DEMO_UARS.OBJ, QUIDEF.OBJ, SYS$INPUT/OPTION ! ! There are no EXTERNAL file connectors, database handles or working- ! storage variables defined in the DEMO example, so no PSECT attribute ! modification is required to build this shareable image. ! SYMBOL_VECTOR = ( - USER_INIT = PROCEDURE, - USER_LOGON = PROCEDURE, - USER_RECV = PROCEDURE, - USER_LOGOFF = PROCEDURE, - USER_FINI = PROCEDURE, - USER_INT = PROCEDURE - ) $! $! Unless the resulting shareable image will be placed in the SYS$SHARE $! directory, a trusted logical name needs to be defined so that Tier3 $! can locate the shareable image at run-time. NB: this requirement is $! *not* enforced for DEBUG images. $! $! SYSNAM privilege is required to define a trusted logical name and $! CMKRNL privilege is required to install the shareable image. $! $ UAR_SPEC = F$PARSE("DEMO_UARS.EXE") - ";" $ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC/NOLOG DEMO_UARS 'UAR_SPEC $ SET FILE/PROT=(W:RE) 'UAR_SPEC $! $ INSTALL := $INSTALL/COMMAND $! $! In the following command the /SHARE qualifier is required. The /OPEN $! and /HEADER qualifiers are optional. $! $ IF F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES("DEMO_UARS.EXE","KNOWN") $ THEN INSTALL REPLACE DEMO_UARS/OPEN/HEADER/SHARE $ ELSE INSTALL ADD DEMO_UARS/OPEN/HEADER/SHARE $ ENDIF $! $FINI: $ PREV_PRIVS = F$SETPRV(PREV_PRIVS) $ EXIT $! wrote in message news:f1K_i.1548$ID.437@newsfe08.lga... > I've been working with a customer on some COBOL code. Bleach! What sorry > nonsense. > > Anyway, they need to invoke some system routines. I written them and even > figured out how to create ITEM-LISTS. What I can't seem to figure out is > how to implement the constants for system services such as those I would > normally find in the Macro library as, for example, $LNMDEF. I've had to > use: > > 01 blah PIC 9(4) COMP VALUE IS EXTERNAL LNM$_STRING. > > and then create and compile a small macro with: > > $LNMDEF GLOBAL > .END > > and link with the program. > > Is there a way to include such literal values in COBOL? > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 2007 14:16:43 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: X11 in a browser? Message-ID: In article <473db3ea$0$9409$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>, "Walter Kuhn" writes: > 1) there is an existing OpenVMS application with X11 (not Motif) user > interface > 2) The user has PCs with normal Web Browsers (no additional software) > 3) Users wans to use the application (1) completely in the browser (no > additional software) > > Any ideas, hints, suggestions Get a new user. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:39:15 -0500 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: X11 in a browser? Message-ID: "Walter Kuhn" wrote in message news:473db3ea$0$9409$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at... > 1) there is an existing OpenVMS application with X11 (not Motif) user > interface > 2) The user has PCs with normal Web Browsers (no additional software) > 3) Users wans to use the application (1) completely in the browser (no > additional software) > > Any ideas, hints, suggestions > There is no such thing as a "X11 user interface". X11 is the definition of the wire protocol. All the other libraries are built on top of that from XLib to Xt to Motif. I am guessing you mean without the Motif Window Manager - or rather - without an X11 display server. In general, no. As someone else mentioned - there may be some Java based stuff that "might" work. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.629 ************************