INFO-VAX Fri, 07 Mar 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 133 Contents: Apache performance problem Re: Apache performance problem Re: Burn a CD from XP that VMS will mount/read? Re: Burn a CD from XP that VMS will mount/read? Re: Encryption on VMS Re: Encryption on VMS Re: Encryption on VMS Re: Encryption on VMS Re: from TheDailyWTF Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: I64 layered products Re: laboratory subroutines OT: Religious freedom and extremism (was:Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Re: SCSI bus Termination with KZPBA-CB controllers Re: SCSI bus Termination with KZPBA-CB controllers Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Re: VMS Update Re: VMS Update Re: VMS Update Re: VMS Update ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:28:38 -0700 From: John Nebel Subject: Apache performance problem Message-ID: <47D045E6.7050303@csdco.com> This is on OpenVMS 7.3-2 and Apache 1.3-1 Apache is performing an insane number of logical name translations, this can exceed a rate of 200k/second and averages around 10k/second in our environment. One thing Apache appears to be doing is looping on a translation of apache$dcl_sync_xxxxxxxx 6-MAR 11:55:27.182282 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B 6-MAR 11:55:27.182266 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B 6-MAR 11:55:27.182250 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B 6-MAR 11:55:27.182235 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B Ultimately this appears to have the ability to jam VMS enough to crash it with a cluexit. Is their a workaround, or does Apache 2.1-1 have a more reasonable behavior? Thanks, John Nebel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 02:02:36 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: Apache performance problem Message-ID: <00A7633C.B91B35E9@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article <47D045E6.7050303@csdco.com>, John Nebel writes: >This is on OpenVMS 7.3-2 and Apache 1.3-1 > >Apache is performing an insane number of logical name translations, this can >exceed a rate of 200k/second and averages around 10k/second in our environment. > >One thing Apache appears to be doing is looping on a translation of >apache$dcl_sync_xxxxxxxx > >6-MAR 11:55:27.182282 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B >6-MAR 11:55:27.182266 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B >6-MAR 11:55:27.182250 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B >6-MAR 11:55:27.182235 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B > >Ultimately this appears to have the ability to jam VMS enough to crash it with a >cluexit. > >Is their a workaround, or does Apache 2.1-1 have a more reasonable behavior? There's a CRTL flag that'll make Apache cache those logical-name translation results. $ define/nolog decc$enable_getenv_cache enable in the APACHE$WWW LOGIN.COM -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 11:34:03 -0800 (PST) From: AttackTribble@gmail.com Subject: Re: Burn a CD from XP that VMS will mount/read? Message-ID: skulker wrote: > On Mar 6, 7:08=EF=BF=BDam, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > In article , moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com= (Michael Moroney) writes: > > >VAXman- =EF=BF=BD@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > > > >>In article , bake...@swbell.net writes: > > >>>Hello, > > > > >>>I am trying to apply patches to a newly installed I64 VMS server in a= > > >>>black environment. This server has no network connections (yet) and > > >>>even when it does it will not have access to the white world or FTP. > > > > >>>I need to install a patch on this server. I have downloaded the patch= > > >>>from HP but how can I get the patch to the VMS server? > > > > >>Who did you download the patch if you are so internet paranoid? > > > > >It's probably a paranoid customer. =EF=BF=BDIt sounds like military or = maybe a > > >3 letter agency, who often believe networks serve only one purpose: To > > >give spies access. > > > > I guess the obvious was missed. =EF=BF=BDThese people would connect a sy= stem to > > the internet that is so full of security holes that securing it would be= > > tantamount to bailing out the Titanic with a teaspoon but they won't con= - > > nect up their fortress. > > > > So now they've downloaded some file(s) from the internet to this PeeCee.= > > What's to assure them that they have is safe and sound? =EF=BF=BDI've se= en virii > > for Weendoze spread by 'sneakernet' in the past. =EF=BF=BD > > > > -- > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =EF=BF=BD VAXman(at)TME= SIS(dot)COM > > > > =EF=BF=BD "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > This file was downloaded from a secure HP site to which I was provided > a temporary username and password by an HP employee. > > At least I have a security trail back to a person at a company. Yeah - > I know, he may be insane and send me a problem, but sometimes we have > to take chances. > > That is not the issue in any event. I am trying to learn how to burn a > CD on XP that may be read by OpenVMS. The source of the data is > irrelevant to this discussion. There's a potential problem here. What kind of binary is it? If it's an EXE, dropping it on Windows has probably wrecked the attributes. You'll have to fiddle around with "SET FILE/ATTRIBUTES" to repair it. If it's a ZIP just don't unzip until you get it onto VMS. Have you considered carrying a laptop to the machine and plugging into the same hub? Or with a desktop you could use a serial cable and Kermit. I know this won't help with your current situation, but I thought I'd put it in the thread in case it gets searched by someone it will help. It is possible to burn a VMS format CD on a PC, but unfortunately you have to build an ISO image on a VMS system in the first place and copy it to the PC. There's a freeware utility called VMSCD that will create an ISO for you. Google found me links to it straight away. I've used it for building release CDs for the software we sell. Oh, and Craig? Nero can burn a CD from an ISO, not just its proprietary NRG format. I do that all the time. The trick is getting the ISO in the first place. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 13:48:57 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Burn a CD from XP that VMS will mount/read? Message-ID: <08030613485719_20204A45@antinode.org> From: AttackTribble@gmail.com > There's a potential problem here. What kind of binary is it? If it's > an EXE, dropping it on Windows has probably wrecked the attributes. > You'll have to fiddle around with "SET FILE/ATTRIBUTES" to repair it. > [...] When you get some spare time, please show me how any commonly occurring attribute change damages the utility of a VMS executable. > It is possible to burn a VMS format CD on a PC, but unfortunately you > have to build an ISO image on a VMS system in the first place and copy > it to the PC. There's a freeware utility called VMSCD that will create > an ISO for you. Google found me links to it straight away. I've used > it for building release CDs for the software we sell. Should I assume that when you say "ISO" here, you mean "image", not anything actually related to an ISO 9660 file system? For information on what an "ISO" really is, see, for example: http://www.iso.org/iso/home.htm For the full details of ISO 9660, you may need to invest some franc: http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=17505 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 11:02:49 -0800 (PST) From: res0o7il@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: <652e21b5-a50a-4387-b64f-0248bcaad952@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , res0o7il@yahoo.com writes: > > > Larry, you mention that there's an encryption product that integrates > > with VMS backup. I don't seem to have that on VMS 6.2 Alpha. Would > > that be on the VMS distribution CDs somewhere, or does the Alpha > > version not turn up until 8.3? > > I believe it may have been distributed separately due to ITAR status > at the time. Since then things have changed, and they could include > it with other software. In fact, they do :-) Any search for encryption on HP's website takes me to the Open Source Security for VMS, which is an API rather than a complete product. Can anyone point me to a download location for the ENCRYPT package that'll work on 7.3-2, or does anyone have said package that would be willing to send it to me by some means? Shane ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 2008 15:58:55 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: In article <652e21b5-a50a-4387-b64f-0248bcaad952@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, res0o7il@yahoo.com writes: > Any search for encryption on HP's website takes me to the Open Source > Security for VMS, which is an API rather than a complete product. Can > anyone point me to a download location for the ENCRYPT package that'll > work on 7.3-2, or does anyone have said package that would be willing > to send it to me by some means? HP is not in the habit of making licensed products available for download. Buy it from your HP representative. http://docs.hp.com/en/12752/SPDEncryptionV16.pdf The license for the latest version also covers prior versions, although you might need to buy older media than V1.6. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 17:26:07 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: <47d06ff0$0$10309$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Some bearded guy named Shane wrote: > Can > anyone point me to a download location for the ENCRYPT package that'll > work on 7.3-2, or does anyone have said package that would be willing > to send it to me by some means? > $DISK2:[KITS]CD_CONTENTS.DEC04;1 > > "Encryption for OpenVMS - VAX" 081AA 1 > .6 SSB NCH Y N N ENCRYPT016 2 > > ****************************** > $DISK2:[KITS]cd_contents.dec06;1 > > "Encryption for OpenVMS Alpha" 597AA 1.6 > SSB NCH Y N N ENCRYPT016 4 I could arrange for a psychic to utter the proper incantantations to cause the contents on reflective slow spinning polycarbonate disks to magically mirror themselves onto a metal oxyde disk spinning at high speed, at which point, you might be able to use FTP to take a good picture of them, assuming they do not have vampire capabilities and become invisible to FTP :-) You can contact me privately. remove the spamnot when replying. Please specify vax or alpha. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:32:48 -0800 (PST) From: AttackTribble@gmail.com Subject: Re: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Some bearded guy named Shane wrote: > > > Can > > anyone point me to a download location for the ENCRYPT package that'll > > work on 7.3-2, or does anyone have said package that would be willing > > to send it to me by some means? > > > $DISK2:[KITS]CD_CONTENTS.DEC04;1 > > > > "Encryption for OpenVMS - VAX" 081AA 1 > > .6 SSB NCH Y N N ENCRYPT016 2 > > > > ****************************** > > $DISK2:[KITS]cd_contents.dec06;1 > > > > "Encryption for OpenVMS Alpha" 597AA 1.6 > > SSB NCH Y N N ENCRYPT016 4 > > > I could arrange for a psychic to utter the proper incantantations to > cause the contents on reflective slow spinning polycarbonate disks to > magically mirror themselves onto a metal oxyde disk spinning at high > speed, at which point, you might be able to use FTP to take a good > picture of them, assuming they do not have vampire capabilities and > become invisible to FTP :-) > > You can contact me privately. remove the spamnot when replying. Please > specify vax or alpha. Thanks JF, I'll do that. BTW, Larry, I have a funky EOM license set that almost certainly covers this. "OpenVMS Kitchen sink" is the third license from the bottom of the list... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 18:45:44 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: from TheDailyWTF Message-ID: On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:55:42 -0800, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > My apologies if it has been posted before: > > http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Jurassic-Programmers-.aspx > > Arne In the 80's General Motors tried to move off VAX PL/I on to Unix/C The project was cancelled after several years and $12M later. Ford had a similar experience -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:10:57 -0600 From: Dan Holm Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: > In poking around the DSPP site it looks to me like you have to be a > corporate member to download any of the compilers. All of the topics > I found (ACMS, Datatrieve, DECforms, DECset, GKS, compilers) all say > free download for partners. when I go to their pages it says I must > be a Company Member That seems to be the case. I cannot access any of the interesting downloads until I associate my account with a company account. Getting a company account is still free, but there are more requirements and an approval process that takes who-knows-how-long. I filled out the application, and we'll see what happens. -- Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 12:47:37 -0800 (PST) From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: <13e5952d-423f-4012-ae39-31bc1e57fdac@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Mar 6, 2:10 pm, Dan Holm wrote: > > In poking around the DSPP site it looks to me like you have to be a > > corporate member to download any of the compilers. All of the topics > > I found (ACMS, Datatrieve, DECforms, DECset, GKS, compilers) all say > > free download for partners. when I go to their pages it says I must > > be a Company Member > > That seems to be the case. I cannot access any of the interesting > downloads until I associate my account with a company account. > > Getting a company account is still free, but there are more > requirements and an approval process that takes who-knows-how-long. > I filled out the application, and we'll see what happens. > > -- > Dan It's the requirement of having a product that stops me. I've worked with OpenVMS since 1981, but currently I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not sure how to satisfy that. John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:57:11 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: <47d05b17$0$31265$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: > It's the requirement of having a product that stops me. I've worked > with OpenVMS since 1981, but currently I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not > sure how to satisfy that. Best bet is to find a friendly "DECUS" member who can lend you the IA64 DVDs (are they still CD ?). Or if you have specific products in mind, some friendly DECUS member would offer to give you access to them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:59:01 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: <47D05B15.1090708@comcast.net> johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: > On Mar 6, 2:10 pm, Dan Holm wrote: > >>>In poking around the DSPP site it looks to me like you have to be a >>>corporate member to download any of the compilers. All of the topics >>>I found (ACMS, Datatrieve, DECforms, DECset, GKS, compilers) all say >>>free download for partners. when I go to their pages it says I must >>>be a Company Member >> >>That seems to be the case. I cannot access any of the interesting >>downloads until I associate my account with a company account. >> >>Getting a company account is still free, but there are more >>requirements and an approval process that takes who-knows-how-long. >>I filled out the application, and we'll see what happens. >> >>-- >>Dan > > > It's the requirement of having a product that stops me. I've worked > with OpenVMS since 1981, but currently I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not > sure how to satisfy that. > > John H. Reinhardt In all these years, have you written NOTHING that would be of any use to anyone else? If not, what the hell HAVE you been doing? If so, you have a product even if you haven't marketed it yet. If you have written such a thing, consider selling it for a modest charge. Presto!!! You are a business. Remember, you can sell shit! Just dry it, put it a fifty pound bag and call it fertilizer!! Someone will buy it if the price is right. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:02:21 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: <08030615022105_20204A45@antinode.org> From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" > It's the requirement of having a product that stops me. I've worked > with OpenVMS since 1981, but currently I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not > sure how to satisfy that. Same here. There seems to be nothing to accomodate a non-commercial software developer. (At least nothing formal. The _informal_ support system seems to work pretty well, but it would be nice not to have to annoy people with repeated out-of-band requests for this or that kit. It also waste a fair amount of time, all around.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:08:44 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: <08030615084490_20204A45@antinode.org> From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > In all these years, have you written NOTHING that would be of any use to > anyone else? If not, what the hell HAVE you been doing? If so, you > have a product even if you haven't marketed it yet. "utility", "value", and "price" are not synonyms. > If you have written such a thing, consider selling it for a modest > charge. Presto!!! You are a business. , many open-source products, which is what I tend to develop, have licenses which make selling the stuff problematic. If, however, _you_ would like to start paying for, say, Info-ZIP products or wget, please let me know. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:30:55 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: <47D0628F.4000903@comcast.net> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > >>In all these years, have you written NOTHING that would be of any use to >>anyone else? If not, what the hell HAVE you been doing? If so, you >>have a product even if you haven't marketed it yet. > > > "utility", "value", and "price" are not synonyms. > > >>If you have written such a thing, consider selling it for a modest >>charge. Presto!!! You are a business. > > > , many open-source products, which is what I tend to > develop, have licenses which make selling the stuff problematic. If, > however, _you_ would like to start paying for, say, Info-ZIP products or > wget, please let me know. > If YOU wrote it, it's yours to keep, sell, or wipe your butt with. If somebody else wrote it and released it under the "Gnu License" or something similar, it's not yours to sell even if you can give away copies or charge a trivial amount for media, copying, postage, etc. So, again, if you have written something sufficiently useful to your fellow men that they would pay you $25 per copy, you have a product and can be a business even if you'll never get rich that way. If you prefer to give the stuff away, you'll just have to buy your computers at retail just like the rest of us. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:33:37 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: <47d063a2$0$31250$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > , many open-source products, which is what I tend to > develop, have licenses which make selling the stuff problematic. If, > however, _you_ would like to start paying for, say, Info-ZIP products or > wget, please let me know. Since the downsizing of VMS engineering, there have been more and more "critical" products that have gone to volunteer hands. While ZIP has always been a volunteerer-provided critical part of VMS everyone needs, you now have products such as DFU and the LDDriver that are in volunteer's hands. There are many more out there that are essentially pretty essential to running VMS in a modern world. Miss Management at VMS could Shirley find some ways to accomodate those key "unofficial" developpers easily even if they do not fit the mould set out by the DSPP programme. I terms of helping IA64 hobbyists, one would need to chat with the illustrious Mr Cathey (thank you very much for running the hobbyists programme) to see if there have been discussions on allowing IA64 kits to be sold in the same way as VAX and Alpha software. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 19:13:08 -0600 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: I64 layered products Message-ID: In article <08030615022105_20204A45@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" > > > It's the requirement of having a product that stops me. I've worked > > with OpenVMS since 1981, but currently I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not > > sure how to satisfy that. > > Same here. There seems to be nothing to accomodate a non-commercial > software developer. (At least nothing formal. The _informal_ support > system seems to work pretty well, but it would be nice not to have to > annoy people with repeated out-of-band requests for this or that kit. > It also waste a fair amount of time, all around.) Me three. If the hobbyist CDs were always up-to-date (and I understand that volunteers don't always have time to do everything they'd like to do) it would be one thing, but they usually aren't. So the best thing would be to bring DSPP into the 21st century and make it open-source-aware. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 2008 20:33:14 -0600 From: BEGINcornelius@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: laboratory subroutines Message-ID: In article , RiverRoadRambler@gmail.com writes: > I have two people who have offered to take a look at converting the > vax macro code--so hopefully that part of my updating of an old system > will proceed. > > In the mid 1980s I wrote some software to process signals coming from > the digestive system using a PDP 11 23+ When the Microvax II came > out with a VAXLAB version (software package to run Q-Bus > instrumentation and lots of scientific routines), I moved the programs > from pdp to VAX and extensively used the DECWINDOWS graphing routines, > signal processing routines etc, but moved the data acquisition to > pcs. Dec gave up on the VAXLAB stuff before Compaq bought it out. > They also never ported the software to run on the Alpha (the "real > time routines"). > Anyway-- the analysis has been running on a VAXSTATION 90a since > 1994 or so and finally the users decided to have it replaced with a pc > version. I have been retired, and so am just coordinating some > efforts to duplicate the old analysis. > About the only parts that have to be exactly duplicated are the > macro peak finding code and the filters. They were sort of blackbox > routines I called. I have the source for the peaks, but no info for > the filters--which I believe are pretty much off the shelf > techniques. > > Sort of a stroll down memory lane, with a little pride that > something I originally wrote in 1985 on a pdp is still useful 24 years > later! > > Russ Hanson (I worked for a huge medical organization in Rochester > MN for 25 years--and this is some research stuff we did). Hi, Russ, Hope you're enjoying your retirement! That medical institution actually still has some Macro-32/Macro-11 expertise - me! I've even done a bit of digital signal processing in assembler, primarily FFT routines, although not in a VMS environment. As you know, there's this little issue of your being on the research side of things while I'm on the clinical side - but that doesn't keep me from helping out. Give me a call - we can have coffee and talk about it. As far as DECrti is concerned, I know the name, and may even have some of the old documentation your group threw out (I recall some IEZ11 driver stuff at least), but I have no experience with it. I can certainly get you the old VMS documentation CD's if that will help. -- George Cornelius cornelius A T eisner D O T decus D O T org cornelius A T mayo D O T edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:55:39 -0500 From: bradhamilton Subject: OT: Religious freedom and extremism (was:Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England Message-ID: <47D0A09B.3040504@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Bob, > > do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to > oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use > religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as the USA) ? > > It is interesting that the country that should understand religious > extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many > extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists > political voices and power. I would say the "we" in the USA don't "understand" religious extremists because we generally are tolerant of religion (read: neutral). I think it would be more accurate to say, post-9/11, that we hate religious extremism when it is used as an excuse to murder others. Do religious extremists in the USA have political voices? Yes. Do they wield political power? Generally, no - there has still been no establishment of state religion, despite the best efforts of a vocal minority. Some may claim that "we" are a Christian nation, simply by force of numbers, but that ignores the fact that synagogues, mosques, cathedrals, and congregations stand literally cheek-by-jowl next to each other in many parts of our country. I grew up across the street from a synagogue, located one mile away from my (Catholic) church, and one-and-one-half miles away from one of the first mosques on the East Coast of the USA. So, no, I don't think that religious extremists have a death grip on my country's politics, and our tolerance remains a beacon for those who may feel oppressed by any particular brand of religion, or by religion in general. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Message-ID: <819dfeeb-4c97-4c94-8447-6657c4435abb@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 6, 12:45=A0pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Mar 6, 9:04 am, Andrew wrote: > > > > > > > On 28 Feb, 13:23, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > here is a glance of things to come if Hillary or Obama implement > > > their healthcare plan ... the bbc did not report it but a teen died > > > while waiting on an ambulance that was setting at the hospital > > > with a patient inside because the hospitals were full and did not > > > want to violate a government mandate of a 4 hour must treat law. > > > > Canada people coming here ... England people that have the money > > > flying to India to have surgery ... > > > > don't worry, those rich liberal Harvard grads will be able to afford > > > it while those they claim to want to help will be dying waiting for > > > an ambulance ... > > > > that what socialism does, it ruins a country ... > > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7249514.stm > > > Bob. > > > 47 million Americans have no heath insurance, 8.7 million of those are > > children. > > > Studies have estimated that up to 18,000 people a year die in the US > > unnecessarily because they do not have health insurance. > > > Want to guess which heatlhcare system I would prefer to have as my > > safety net??? > > Here in the US we can be proud of our system where according to the > CDC, each year there are ~1.7 million health care-associated > infections and 99,000 related deaths. An AP article was just published > today about a clinic in Las Vegas: > > > > Yep, the US system's working just great. NOT!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - one problem is all those lawsuits from the democrats trial attorney buddies ... that just makes malpractice insurance ballon and it is passed on to us ... so the same people who say they can solve it are part of the problem ... another is hospitals going broke from illegals coming here for free treatment ... just ask people leaving CA why they are leaving and what is happening to the hospitals and schools there (taxes) ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:00:43 -0800 (PST) From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Message-ID: <521cd774-b84c-4318-97cb-c4a865cf2486@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 6, 10:04=A0am, Andrew wrote: > On 28 Feb, 13:23, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > here is a glance of things to come if Hillary or Obama implement > > their healthcare plan ... the bbc did not report it but a teen died > > while waiting on an ambulance that was setting at the hospital > > with a patient inside because the hospitals were full and did not > > want to violate a government mandate of a 4 hour must treat law. > > > Canada people coming here ... England people that have the money > > flying to India to have surgery ... > > > don't worry, those rich liberal Harvard grads will be able to afford > > it while those they claim to want to help will be dying waiting for > > an ambulance ... > > > that what socialism does, it ruins a country ... > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7249514.stm > > Bob. > > 47 million Americans have no heath insurance, 8.7 million of those are > children. > > Studies have estimated that up to 18,000 people a year die in the US > unnecessarily because they do not have health insurance. > > Want to guess which heatlhcare system I would prefer to have as my > safety net??? > > Regards > Andrew- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - so subsidize the insurance companies to take them on, but do not socialize the healthcare system! Look at social security ... another example of lawyers trying to run my finances, now they want to run my medical decisions ... no thanks ... look at the wonderful mess they have made of things in England ... your country is socially falling apart Andrew right before your eyes and you cannot see the train wreck ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:27:02 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Message-ID: <47d09a83$0$25403$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Bob, do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as the USA) ? It is interesting that the country that should understand religious extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists political voices and power. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:27:50 -0500 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: SCSI bus Termination with KZPBA-CB controllers Message-ID: Either way an H879-AA is only $30 Cheaper than having hair transplant surgery after ripping it out in frustration dt "BHall" wrote in message news:ffc841c6-1a3a-4154-bb02-515d9f6b3f4c@c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > On Mar 5, 10:56 am, Rich Jordan wrote: >> On Mar 5, 9:30 am, "David Turner, Island Computers" >> >> >> >> wrote: >> > Doesn't that kinda negate the point of a cluster? >> >> > DT"Chris Scheers" wrote in message >> >> >news:636k25F26p6guU1@mid.individual.net... >> >> > > Rich Jordan wrote: >> > >> We're retrofitting some differential (HVD) SCSI gear into a two node >> > >> SCSI cluster using KZPBA-CB controllers. The old setup used the 'Y' >> > >> cable connectors for the Alpha hookups, one leg going to the storage >> > >> equipment, the other terminated. The Alphas are at each end of the >> > >> bus with storage in between. >> >> > >> The back side of this config will have a difficult time fitting with >> > >> those bulky connectors. Does anyone know if we can just hook the >> > >> storage cables directly to the KZPBA-CB controllers, with the >> > >> console >> > >> setting for termination on those cards enabled? Does this provide >> > >> proper bus termination? I know we will lose the ability to >> > >> physically >> > >> remove a node from the bus without disrupting the bus if the 'Y' >> > >> cables are removed. >> >> > > If you enable termination on the cards, yes. >> >> > > I don't know if the termination is still valid if the power to the >> > > box is >> > > off. >> >> > > Remember that the point of the "Y" cables is to enable you to >> > > disconnect >> > > one system or the other for maintenance without disrupting the SCSI >> > > bus. >> >> > > If you eliminate the "Y" cables and have to disconnect a machine, you >> > > will >> > > need to take the other one down, too. >> >> > > -- >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. >> >> > > Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: ch...@applied-synergy.com >> > > Fax: 817-237-3074 >> >> Yep. It does negate part of the benefit of a cluster. IN defense >> I'll state that the previous Alphaservers (AS1000As) never had to be >> removed from the bus in their 10 years of operation; occasionally one >> was shut down to replace other hardware but the bus stayed connected. >> I guess the power down would have posed a problem for the termination >> at that end if not for the 'Y' cables, though. >> >> The space will not be an issue after all; they can move the shelves >> out from the wall enough to accommodate the Y cables. And these are >> relatively thick cables that won't take a tight bend, so it was an >> issue. >> >> I checked the cards in the system; the resistor packs are present on >> the cards. I tried running the external towers direct to the cards >> (without the 'Y's and all seemed good at low load. When a shadow copy >> was run across the towers, the bus errors went through the roof. So >> its not a workable solution. Both Alphas were running, all cards have >> terminator packs, so the bus should have been terminated. >> >> I'm switching back to the 'Y' cables and pulling the terminator packs >> to do the next shadow copy. We'll see how it goes. >> >> Do the PK*0_SOFT_TERM console variable have any effect at all on KZPBA- >> CB cards? Do they need to be set to any particular value, given that >> actual termination is handled by the presence or absence of the >> terminator packs? >> >> Rich > > Rich, > > You might have a bad resistor after knocking around in storage for a > while or maybe you missed a pin/socket when reinserting them? If you > have a VOM you might check them and verify that they all have consist > readings. > > I don't think the srm can tell which version of the KZPBA is installed > and therefore it creates the variables whether they are useful or > not. I think "show config" identifies both -CA and -CB as "QLogic > ISP10x0". Our PK*0_SOFT_TERM variables are set to ON and I'm sure > that is the default value. We are using or did use either the > DWZZH-03 or DWZZH-05 hubs to eliminate the y-cables/external > terminators and still allow removing hosts or arrays from the shared > scsi buses. > > Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:28:13 -0500 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: SCSI bus Termination with KZPBA-CB controllers Message-ID: H879-AA is the diff terminator fyi "BHall" wrote in message news:ffc841c6-1a3a-4154-bb02-515d9f6b3f4c@c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > On Mar 5, 10:56 am, Rich Jordan wrote: >> On Mar 5, 9:30 am, "David Turner, Island Computers" >> >> >> >> wrote: >> > Doesn't that kinda negate the point of a cluster? >> >> > DT"Chris Scheers" wrote in message >> >> >news:636k25F26p6guU1@mid.individual.net... >> >> > > Rich Jordan wrote: >> > >> We're retrofitting some differential (HVD) SCSI gear into a two node >> > >> SCSI cluster using KZPBA-CB controllers. The old setup used the 'Y' >> > >> cable connectors for the Alpha hookups, one leg going to the storage >> > >> equipment, the other terminated. The Alphas are at each end of the >> > >> bus with storage in between. >> >> > >> The back side of this config will have a difficult time fitting with >> > >> those bulky connectors. Does anyone know if we can just hook the >> > >> storage cables directly to the KZPBA-CB controllers, with the >> > >> console >> > >> setting for termination on those cards enabled? Does this provide >> > >> proper bus termination? I know we will lose the ability to >> > >> physically >> > >> remove a node from the bus without disrupting the bus if the 'Y' >> > >> cables are removed. >> >> > > If you enable termination on the cards, yes. >> >> > > I don't know if the termination is still valid if the power to the >> > > box is >> > > off. >> >> > > Remember that the point of the "Y" cables is to enable you to >> > > disconnect >> > > one system or the other for maintenance without disrupting the SCSI >> > > bus. >> >> > > If you eliminate the "Y" cables and have to disconnect a machine, you >> > > will >> > > need to take the other one down, too. >> >> > > -- >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. >> >> > > Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: ch...@applied-synergy.com >> > > Fax: 817-237-3074 >> >> Yep. It does negate part of the benefit of a cluster. IN defense >> I'll state that the previous Alphaservers (AS1000As) never had to be >> removed from the bus in their 10 years of operation; occasionally one >> was shut down to replace other hardware but the bus stayed connected. >> I guess the power down would have posed a problem for the termination >> at that end if not for the 'Y' cables, though. >> >> The space will not be an issue after all; they can move the shelves >> out from the wall enough to accommodate the Y cables. And these are >> relatively thick cables that won't take a tight bend, so it was an >> issue. >> >> I checked the cards in the system; the resistor packs are present on >> the cards. I tried running the external towers direct to the cards >> (without the 'Y's and all seemed good at low load. When a shadow copy >> was run across the towers, the bus errors went through the roof. So >> its not a workable solution. Both Alphas were running, all cards have >> terminator packs, so the bus should have been terminated. >> >> I'm switching back to the 'Y' cables and pulling the terminator packs >> to do the next shadow copy. We'll see how it goes. >> >> Do the PK*0_SOFT_TERM console variable have any effect at all on KZPBA- >> CB cards? Do they need to be set to any particular value, given that >> actual termination is handled by the presence or absence of the >> terminator packs? >> >> Rich > > Rich, > > You might have a bad resistor after knocking around in storage for a > while or maybe you missed a pin/socket when reinserting them? If you > have a VOM you might check them and verify that they all have consist > readings. > > I don't think the srm can tell which version of the KZPBA is installed > and therefore it creates the variables whether they are useful or > not. I think "show config" identifies both -CA and -CB as "QLogic > ISP10x0". Our PK*0_SOFT_TERM variables are set to ON and I'm sure > that is the default value. We are using or did use either the > DWZZH-03 or DWZZH-05 hubs to eliminate the y-cables/external > terminators and still allow removing hosts or arrays from the shared > scsi buses. > > Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:55:52 -0800 (PST) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Message-ID: <9aca2038-4e20-4bb4-850e-4036ca4b82d2@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 6, 1:24=A0pm, tadamsmar wrote: > Well, I have posted about a shawdow set problem that I had: Hard > errors in the error log only during a shadow set merge or ANAL/DISK/ > SHAD that were apparently not in blocks allocated to files. > > This is a 2 disk shadowset on a DS10 running 7.3.2. > > I got 2 new disks to replace the old ones. > > I swapped out one disk and merged it in. =A0But I got the same errors on > the new disk at exactly the same LBAs! > > Then I swapped the other disks and merged it in. =A0I got the same > errors on it at the same LBAs! > > To be exact, I get a few more errors on the source disk for the merge, > probably due to retries, =A0but all at the same 4 LBAs on both disks. > > Here's what I think happened: =A0Had one bad disk that had parity errors > (or a glitch that established some parity errors). =A0Once those errors > were established, they are just copied from disk to disk every time I > merged a shadowset. > > One thing I don't know is why ANAL/DISK/SHAD/BLOCKS=3DFILE hits these > parity errors, since all other tests indicate that the reported LBAs > are not in a file. =A0ANAL/DISK/READ reported no errors, and DFU > indicates that the LBAs are not in a file. > > To get rid of these errors I am in the process of trying this: > > 1. =A0Broke a disk out of the shadow set and did an image save and > compress on it. > > 2. =A0Booted on that disk and remerged the shadow set. > > That merge is in progress. =A0I will see if I have any errors on it. Nope, did not fix the problem. Errors at the same 4 lbas. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 19:33:49 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Message-ID: tadamsmar writes: >Well, I have posted about a shawdow set problem that I had: Hard >errors in the error log only during a shadow set merge or ANAL/DISK/ >SHAD that were apparently not in blocks allocated to files. >This is a 2 disk shadowset on a DS10 running 7.3.2. >I got 2 new disks to replace the old ones. >I swapped out one disk and merged it in. But I got the same errors on >the new disk at exactly the same LBAs! >Then I swapped the other disks and merged it in. I got the same >errors on it at the same LBAs! >To be exact, I get a few more errors on the source disk for the merge, >probably due to retries, but all at the same 4 LBAs on both disks. >Here's what I think happened: Had one bad disk that had parity errors >(or a glitch that established some parity errors). Once those errors >were established, they are just copied from disk to disk every time I >merged a shadowset. That is what shadowing is supposed to do. Say you have a parity error in some important file. You'd rather know about that rather than getting random data, correct? Yes. With shadowing, if there is another member available, the same block from the other member will be read to attempt to retrieve the data. But if there is no other member, the error is returned to the caller. Now let's say you start with a 1 member set with a bad block, and you add a member. All blocks from the first member are copied to the new member. When it reaches the bad block, there is no good data. So the corresponding block on the new drive is also marked bad so random data will not be returned to the caller as good. Now if you remove the original member and add another disk, the copy takes place again. This time the block (on the second disk) is seen as bad even though there really isn't anything physically wrong with that particular block. The "badness" of the block is copied again, and any reads of that block on the shadowset will return a parity error since all members of the set have it marked as bad. How do you get rid of the bad block, esp. if you "know" it's not really bad (by replacing all the drives with new ones)? Just write to the block. Easier said than done, perhaps, but if the block is in a file that you can restore, just $ delete/erase the file and then restore it. When I worked on shadowing, I had a little utility that could write (or read) any block, or mark a block as bad. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:09:44 -0800 (PST) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2:33=A0pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > tadamsmar writes: > >Well, I have posted about a shawdow set problem that I had: Hard > >errors in the error log only during a shadow set merge or ANAL/DISK/ > >SHAD that were apparently not in blocks allocated to files. > >This is a 2 disk shadowset on a DS10 running 7.3.2. > >I got 2 new disks to replace the old ones. > >I swapped out one disk and merged it in. =A0But I got the same errors on > >the new disk at exactly the same LBAs! > >Then I swapped the other disks and merged it in. =A0I got the same > >errors on it at the same LBAs! > >To be exact, I get a few more errors on the source disk for the merge, > >probably due to retries, =A0but all at the same 4 LBAs on both disks. > >Here's what I think happened: =A0Had one bad disk that had parity errors > >(or a glitch that established some parity errors). =A0Once those errors > >were established, they are just copied from disk to disk every time I > >merged a shadowset. > > That is what shadowing is supposed to do. =A0Say you have a parity error i= n > some important file. =A0You'd rather know about that rather than getting > random data, correct? Yes. =A0With shadowing, if there is another member > available, the same block from the other member will be read to attempt > to retrieve the data. =A0But if there is no other member, the error is > returned to the caller. > > Now let's say you start with a 1 member set with a bad block, and you > add a member. =A0All blocks from the first member are copied to the new > member. =A0When it reaches the bad block, there is no good data. =A0So the= > corresponding block on the new drive is also marked bad so random data > will not be returned to the caller as good. > > Now if you remove the original member and add another disk, the copy > takes place again. =A0This time the block (on the second disk) is seen as > bad even though there really isn't anything physically wrong with that > particular block. =A0The "badness" of the block is copied again, and any > reads of that block on the shadowset will return a parity error since all > members of the set have it marked as bad. > > How do you get rid of the bad block, esp. if you "know" it's not really > bad (by replacing all the drives with new ones)? =A0Just write to the bloc= k. =A0 > Easier said than done, perhaps, but if the block is in a file that you can= > restore, just $ delete/erase the file and then restore it. =A0When I worke= d > on shadowing, I had a little utility that could write (or read) any > block, or mark a block as bad.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Seems these blocks are not in a file because: 1. No errors from ANAL/DISK/READ 2. No errors when I break a disk out of the shadow set an do an image backup of the disk. But I get parity errors when I run ANAL/DISK/SHADOW/BLOCKS=3DFILE that implies the blocks are in a file. But when I check the LBAs where the errors are reported using DFU I find that the LBA is not in a file! I am not sure how an image backup could fail to encounter an error if it is not in a file. It is very confusing to me. I was thinking about running an INIT/ERASE on one of the disks (broken out of the shadowset and then restoring it from an image backup, then booting on that disk, then merging the shadowset. But I already tried a restore of a disk. I am not sure how I could end up with these parity errors after I restored the disk from a save set with no parity error reported. Can you explain that? Thanks for any help. I am stumped. ------------------------------ Date: 06 Mar 2008 14:32:29 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: VMS Update Message-ID: Sue writes: > 2.3 - For everyone that sent me the URL with the Seattle school > system VAX - yes I did see it and yes I did send it to sales ;') Since I'm in Seattle, I got in touch with the folks at Seattle Public Schools' IT department. Although the newpaper story would have you believe that it's the aged VAXen that are the problem, I'm told that it's the *application* that is old, crufty, and fragile, and needs to be rewritten. -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:27:58 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS Update Message-ID: <47d0546a$0$25456$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > IT department. Although the newpaper story would have you believe that it's > the aged VAXen that are the problem, I'm told that it's the *application* that > is old, crufty, and fragile, and needs to be rewritten. And HP will undoubtedly sell sales people who will offer HP consulting services to rtewrite those applications in a modern framework such as .NET. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:44:46 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS Update Message-ID: <47D057BE.1060003@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: > > >>IT department. Although the newpaper story would have you believe that it's >>the aged VAXen that are the problem, I'm told that it's the *application* that >>is old, crufty, and fragile, and needs to be rewritten. > > > And HP will undoubtedly sell sales people who will offer HP consulting > services to rtewrite those applications in a modern framework such as .NET. > If spaghetti code was good enough for the original. . . . ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 2008 23:36:13 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS Update Message-ID: <63bdfdF2649nvU1@mid.individual.net> In article <47D057BE.1060003@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> >>>IT department. Although the newpaper story would have you believe that it's >>>the aged VAXen that are the problem, I'm told that it's the *application* that >>>is old, crufty, and fragile, and needs to be rewritten. >> >> >> And HP will undoubtedly sell sales people who will offer HP consulting >> services to rtewrite those applications in a modern framework such as .NET. >> > > If spaghetti code was good enough for the original. . . . Where did it say it was "spaghetti code"? Much more likely it is just written in some obscure and unknown language like COBOL and no one there knows what to do with it. A lot of stuff on legacy systems was done in legacy languages. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.133 ************************