INFO-VAX Fri, 09 May 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 259 Contents: Re: /DENSITY=what? for Ultrium tapes on 8.3 Alpha? Re: /DENSITY=what? for Ultrium tapes on 8.3 Alpha? DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: Encompass - Endeavour msa30 & Itanium/Alpha Cluster questions Re: msa30 & Itanium/Alpha Cluster questions OT: Desktop wars Re: OT: Desktop wars Re: OT: Desktop wars Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS test Re: What systems can use USB? Re: What systems can use USB? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 07:17:15 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: /DENSITY=what? for Ultrium tapes on 8.3 Alpha? Message-ID: <00A794F2.7FDD9BCB@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article <4823ADDB.493A3625@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >> >> VMSers -- >> >> Just got an MSL4048, which has Ultrium LTO4 (1.6 tb per cartridge) drives. >> If I init a tape, should I just let it sit at default density? None of the >> options in help init/density look really good - SDLT320 is the highest. Would >> that match? >> >> VMS 8.3 on Alpha, 8.31h1 on Itanium. > >Do LTOs do multiple densities like the later TZ8xes did? > >...or are they like the newer (S)DLT drives: write native, read(-only) >previous? (That is, a SDLT-320 drive will read/write SDLT-320, but will >only read SDLT-220, not write it.) > >My suggestions would be to leave /DENSITY out (use the default selected >by the drive for the media) and choose between whether or not to use >/MEDIA=COMPACT. > >My $0.02... That was what I decided to go with, at least until I got a response. Seem to have completed a backup with that, so I think it's okay. -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 08:07:52 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: /DENSITY=what? for Ultrium tapes on 8.3 Alpha? Message-ID: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > In article <4823ADDB.493A3625@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: >> Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >>> VMSers -- >>> >>> Just got an MSL4048, which has Ultrium LTO4 (1.6 tb per cartridge) drives. >>> If I init a tape, should I just let it sit at default density? None of the >>> options in help init/density look really good - SDLT320 is the highest. Would >>> that match? >>> >>> VMS 8.3 on Alpha, 8.31h1 on Itanium. >> Do LTOs do multiple densities like the later TZ8xes did? >> >> ...or are they like the newer (S)DLT drives: write native, read(-only) >> previous? (That is, a SDLT-320 drive will read/write SDLT-320, but will >> only read SDLT-220, not write it.) >> >> My suggestions would be to leave /DENSITY out (use the default selected >> by the drive for the media) and choose between whether or not to use >> /MEDIA=COMPACT. >> >> My $0.02... > > That was what I decided to go with, at least until I got a response. > > Seem to have completed a backup with that, so I think it's okay. > > -- Alan Can you read the tape? If you have not tested your ability to restore a backup, what is your backup worth? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 06:18:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Subject: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: <5367fe07-0c47-4b85-9b7d-a35e67602f30@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com> All, I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. Can anyone suggest anything? Many thanks, P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:33:07 +0100 From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: <8rWdneSIB_QIz7nVnZ2dnUVZ8v3inZ2d@posted.plusnet> "Paul" wrote in message news:5367fe07-0c47-4b85-9b7d-a35e67602f30@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > All, > > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > > Many thanks, > > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". Assuming your needs aren't tied specifically to LAT protocol, you might want to have a look at http://www.comtrol.com/products/deviceservers (haven't actually used them yet, so can't comment in depth). Doubtless other folks will have other suppliers to recommend. Good luck, John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:11:01 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: <8537016d-7102-40b5-a9c4-ef9299e73f34@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> The people who still can sell you a new DECserver 700 also sell other similar things. See http://www.vnetek.com/c-8-terminal-server.aspx (formally known as Digital Networks) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:36:10 +0000 (UTC) From: Dale Dellutri Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2008 06:18:05 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: > All, > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > Many thanks, > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". How do you use the current DECserver 700? Do you need LAT? How tied are you to the DECserver 700 command language? (Yes to either of the last two questions will severely restrict your choices.) If you need LAT, call BlackBox (or maybe MRV? Do their products still do LAT?). If you don't, there are many terminal server manufacturers. For example, call Cyclades/Avocent. In any case, make sure you tell them your answers to the above when you call. -- Dale Dellutri (lose the Q's) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:46:31 -0400 From: "John Vottero" Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: "Paul" wrote in message news:5367fe07-0c47-4b85-9b7d-a35e67602f30@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > All, > > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > > Many thanks, > > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". I'm very happy with the Sena PS410 4 port terminal server that we bought to replace a failed DECserver 90TL. See: http://www.sena.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 08:17:36 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: On Fri, 09 May 2008 07:36:10 -0700, Dale Dellutri wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 2008 06:18:05 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: >> All, > >> I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 >> (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. >> Can anyone suggest anything? > >> Many thanks, > >> P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company >> will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". > > How do you use the current DECserver 700? > > Do you need LAT? > > How tied are you to the DECserver 700 command language? > > (Yes to either of the last two questions will severely > restrict your choices.) > > If you need LAT, call BlackBox (or maybe MRV? Do their > products still do LAT?). If you don't, there are > many terminal server manufacturers. For example, call > Cyclades/Avocent. > > In any case, make sure you tell them your answers to the > above when you call. > I use a 20 port Xyplex Maxserver connected to the console ports on VAX, Alpha, Itanium, Cisco , HSG80, Brocade works great. There is also a 40 port version. I got mine off ebay for $150. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:35:16 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: We have some DECSERVER 900 32 Port RJ45 $750 each DT -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= "Paul" wrote in message news:5367fe07-0c47-4b85-9b7d-a35e67602f30@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > All, > > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > > Many thanks, > > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 11:44:29 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: Paul wrote: > All, > > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > > Many thanks, > > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". There is, or was, a company named something like "Digital Networking" that makes or made this sort of stuff. A quick look with Google found lots of hits but none seemed to be really good matches. Not too many people use serial terminals any longer! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 09:05:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: <23fa5e0b-cfcf-4607-9f4b-44691e5d2d3b@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On May 9, 8:18 am, Paul wrote: > All, > > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > > Many thanks, > > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". Paul VNETEK is the current supplier of Digital Network products (they merged). DECserver 708, 716, and 732 units are available NEW with warranty, and presumably support. I do not know if HP Field Service will cover these units, but they are supported by the company. http://www.vnetek.com/s-212-terminal-server.aspx These units will also run the most current DNAS software, which is not compatible with older 700s. I don't know if that buys much. We have placed several DECserver 90M+ units from D.N./Vnetek which are updates of the original DECserver 90Ms and have been working just fine for 2+ years now. Rich (not affiliated with DN/Vnetek except as a satisfied customer). HP did drop support for the "DEC" built units; several of our customers were hit by that, and are laying in spares. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2008 13:19:41 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: In article <5367fe07-0c47-4b85-9b7d-a35e67602f30@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Paul writes: > All, > > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > > Many thanks, > > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". Please inform your company that those serial interfaces and the equipment at the other end of them are "end of life". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 05:05:12 -0700 (PDT) From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Encompass - Endeavour Message-ID: On 1 May, 18:36, JF Mezei wrote: > Rich Jordan wrote: > > locate the OS's they do list (HPUX, Linux, Windows) and click the "see > > more operating systems" link (the one OpenVMS link on the s/w page is > > for the "solutions" page, not the OS's main page or description > > areas). =A0Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. =A0A= t > > the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE. > > Wow, I know HP doesn't care much for VMS, but this is pretty bad. > Perhaps June 25 2008 might bring a formal announcement of the end of the > line ? > > HP could announce that they would deliver 8.4 and then only update > ia64-vms to support new IA64 hardware until IA64 is no longer produced. > > > Thats what I don't want (but do expect) to happen to VMS-related items > > and issues in the new user group; not just shrunk down to 'also-ran' > > but also hidden by the size and overdone "diversity" of the new group. > > Encompass had been meant to give DECUS a broader appeal, supporting > Windows, Unix, Tandem, lawmowers and industrial transformers. > > The issue is that for a user group to be of value to members, it must be > "best in class" for the product the members are interested in. And you > can't be "best in class" if your user group wants to cater to everyone. > > What this "Endeavour" thing should be is just an umprella organisation > supporting specialised user groups (or SIGs or whatever you want to call > them). So you'd have HP-DECUS catering to VMS. You'd have HP-ITUG for > NSK, HP-Interex for HP-UX etc. > > Consider that from a "content" point of view, the user group needs close > contact with its own users as well as the group within HP that runs the > OS/software they are interested in (aka: Contact with Sue and VMS > engineers in our case). > > The umbrella orgaisation can provide logistical support (membership > database, mailing to members, helping organise events (book venues, > transportation etc etc) but would not be involved in any specific > products and might even be invisible to the normal users since their > goals is to serve the real product specific user groups. I think you may be optimistic and simplistic is this outline JF. DECUS worked with more than just VMS in the UK and that was probably the case in other areas too - Digital had Windows, Digital had Unix. It wasn't just VMS. The world has changed since the days of huge DECUS meetings with thousands of people at them. The idea of having a group for VMS and a group for Windows and a group for Linux and one for HP-UX and one for Non-Stop is a) not going to achieve the target of integration/merging and b) going to make each one sufficiently small that it may not survive out on its own anyway. The other aspects of this with VMS being lower down the list than people want is fine in itself and I can't criticise having it moved up in the pages on the HP website. That said, Non-Stop and VMS are niche products. You can't blame Digital or Compaq for that, it's the ever increasing progression of Billy Bloatware that did that. Heck, I love VMS but I'm typing this on a PC because that's what my employer puts on my desk. My guess is that Sue works with a PC although she loves VMS and the VMS customer base. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 09:06:06 -0400 From: Chuck Aaron Subject: msa30 & Itanium/Alpha Cluster questions Message-ID: The MSA30 will hold 14 disks. I utilize dual controllers on this but only use 7 currently for Raid 0+1 config. If I were to add 7 more disks to fill this out, can each of the new seven disks be configured like an internal scsi disk and utilized as such? Can the data from an Itanium 146gb sas disk be copied to say a 300gb scsi disk on an Alpha and utilized without any concerns (will it be transparent)? We're talking about data disks, not system disks. We run VMS 8.3 on the Alphas and will be running VMS 8.3 on the Itaniums. Can an Itanium server running 146gb sas internal disks be clustered to an Alpha DS25 with 300gb scsi internal disks? Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 09:43:17 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: msa30 & Itanium/Alpha Cluster questions Message-ID: In article , Chuck Aaron wrote: > The MSA30 will hold 14 disks. I utilize dual controllers on this > but only use 7 currently for Raid 0+1 config. If I were to add 7 more > disks to fill this out, can each of the new seven disks be configured > like an > internal scsi disk and utilized as such? I've not used the MSA30 much myself, but I don't any problem with your proposal. > > Can the data from an Itanium 146gb sas disk be copied > to say a 300gb scsi disk on an Alpha and utilized without any > concerns (will it be transparent)? We're talking about data > disks, not system disks. We run VMS 8.3 on the > Alphas and will be running VMS 8.3 on the Itaniums. Yes, the data is portable. VMS is VMS. > > Can an Itanium server running 146gb sas internal disks be > clustered to an Alpha DS25 with 300gb scsi internal disks? Yes. VMS clustering doesn't much care about disk details. If you enable disk serving on your cluster, you can make all the disks available to all cluster members simultaneously. > > Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 05:06:45 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: OT: Desktop wars Message-ID: <482414f8$0$31195$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> FredK wrote: > The "desktop" wars ended years ago. Windows won. The UNIX workstation > market collapsed. As a consolation prize, Linux PC's are available for > those who crave a UNIX desktop. I suspect Mark Shuttleworth, head cheese for Ubuntu would disagree with you. Ubuntu is under very active development and for a relatively new solution, has a very impressive list of available software, incluidng Adobe PDF viewer. VMS has had X windows for 20 or so years and all it has is the old XPDF utility (that doesn't even come with VMS). VMS *had* a great word processor (DECwrite) at the time, but Digital didn't even try to price/sell it to normal offices. Just because the owners of VMS decided to not even maintain a presence in the workstation market (and under Palmer, go much further by agreeing to cannabalise its own products to please Bill Gates) does not mean that Dec couldn't have had a decent presence in the desktop. Had Dec made its workstations with decwrite etc affordable right off the bat, offices would have gone to it because it offered orders of magnitudes superior software than what was available on DOS/Windows at the time. You might also wish to read: > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_19/b4083036428429.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story "The Mac in the Gray Flannel Suit". More office workers infatuated with iPods and iPhones are demanding Macs. Is business ready? Is Apple? Remember that Apple started with essentially nothing left, and came out with a totally new operating systems (OS-X) in roughly 2001. They now have over 8% of the PC market. Apple doesn't even (yet) try to get into enterprise. Yet, they now have over 2% of the market without even trying. I bet that is far more than what VMS has, and VMS' last remainng stance is the enterprise market. Now, Imagine if Sue were hired by Apple to head an "enterprise" division ? She'd have no problems getting disasffected HP customers to move from VMS to OS-X. Remember when VMS was big in education ? ## THE REAL CORPORATE STRATEGY? Demographic trends may be on Apple's side. All those college kids wielding iPods have created a deep pool of potential Mac users. According to a survey of 1,200 undergrads by researcher Student Monitor this year, 43% of college students who intend to buy a laptop plan to buy a Mac, up from 8% in 2003. "Many of today's technology decision-makers will ultimately be replaced by Mac users," says Eric Weil, managing partner of Student Monitor. ## Oh, SAP runs on OS-X... does it run on VMS ? Not bad for a just-born operating system. Where there is a will, there is a way. It is pretty clear that even VMS engineers have no will to expand VMS beyond its limited remaining niche. If they didn't they would try to openly try to support HP's decisions to limit VMS. > The X11 "desktop" as far as we are concerned is just a required giblet. read: Necessary legacy evil. Right ? What you don't realise is that a decent GUI isn't just for the desktop. Consider kiosks, consider industrial automation, building automation etc etc. Would you cosnider a restaurant management system (ordering, billing, kitchen supplies etc) to be a "desktop" application ? What about hotel management ? > Local VMS "bus" graphics will continue to exist on most systems. But there > is no desire/interest to try to compete with Windows/Linux in desktop > software. So now you admit that Linux is a serious presence in the desktop. > But - if you come in and tell us that you will buy 1,000 RX2620's, but it > depends on supporting a USB camera... I'm sure we can accomodate you > somehow. Chasnces are that 99% of the people seeking such volumes/applications don't even look at VMS because it isn't listed as having USB camera support. And since only existing customers know how to reach Sue to forward suggestions and make sure they get somewhere, it means that you are missing out on far more customers than those who do manage to reach VMS management with such requests. > It's all about what paying customers want. In real business with a goal to grow a product, it would be all about providing features that will bring in new customers and grow the market niche. > We are working on > audible alarm support (basic sound card support - not MMOV) because a > customer came in and explained the business case, and we agreed. Not > because JF thinks it's cool. In a real business when a "JF" comes along with a suggestion, if that suggestion males sense and the producy management sees potential for more sales, they will go ahead and implement it. They have vision, they have budget, and they have a mandate to grow the product's customer base. The way HP employees present themselves here (except for Sue), it seems clear that that VMS has no vision, has no budget for "vision" features, and only care aboutr retaining existing customer base. In fact, one could argue that it now takes an important customer to theathen to leave VMS/HP before HP would consider assigning human resources to add the desired feature to VMS. So, instead of saying that VMS has no hope on the desktop, you should just plainly admit that a decision was made to widthdraw VMS from the desktop and there is no desire nor any money in the budgets to bring it back to life. And you know what ? As time progresses the "there is no money in the budgets to bring it back to life" is applying to not just the "desktop" but to all of VMS. ------------------------------ Date: 09 May 2008 11:36:18 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: Desktop wars Message-ID: <48243732$0$11604$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <482414f8$0$31195$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >FredK wrote: > >> The "desktop" wars ended years ago. Windows won. The UNIX workstation >> market collapsed. As a consolation prize, Linux PC's are available for >> those who crave a UNIX desktop. > > >I suspect Mark Shuttleworth, head cheese for Ubuntu would disagree with >you. Ubuntu is under very active development and for a relatively new >solution, has a very impressive list of available software, incluidng >Adobe PDF viewer. VMS has had X windows for 20 or so years and all it >has is the old XPDF utility (that doesn't even come with VMS). VMS *had* >a great word processor (DECwrite) at the time, but Digital didn't even >try to price/sell it to normal offices. Windows is eroding from the linux (Ubuntu and other variants) and Mac OS X both which are unix/unix like. I've put Ubuntu up on 3 machines over the past month -- one was an old DEC HiNote. The only difficulty was getting the sound working in the HiNote. I finally discovered the control port ad- dress in a Weendoze .INI file on the original DEC supplied configuration CD. That was probably not something for the typical user to tackle but the other installs were quite simple. Ubuntu interface is quite aestetically pleasing and easy to navigate unlike that Redmond offering with the teletubbies back- ground (I keep waiting for them to pop up and start dancing when I see that background). The Open Office apps are installed by default and my son has been using them for his homework assignments. I've been running about with a Compaq Evo N610c (2.4GHz P4, 1MB mem, 80GB drive, 802.11b/g internal wire- less -- which I installed after removing the micro-PCI 56K modem card, and a Sprint EVDO card) which I sniped off eBay for $100 including shipping. I can do most everything I need to do on the road with it allowing me to keep my 17" Powerbook safely at home. I'd rather lose a $100 piece of crap over a $3K Powerbook. I purchased my Mac (A 17" Powerbook) because I could use it to access VMS as an X server. It still runs well and serves me well. I have several PeeCees here which were given to my by companies to run their Weendoze only product interfaces. All of them have been rendered useless by viruses or hardware failure. Those that were shipped here with Weendoze and didn't die from a hardware failure (only one with a Tyan Thunderbolt motherboard, dual PII and SCSI) now run Linux. >"The Mac in the Gray Flannel Suit". >More office workers infatuated with iPods and iPhones are demanding >Macs. Is business ready? Is Apple? > > > >Remember that Apple started with essentially nothing left, and came out >with a totally new operating systems (OS-X) in roughly 2001. They now >have over 8% of the PC market. > > >Apple doesn't even (yet) try to get into enterprise. Yet, they now have >over 2% of the market without even trying. I bet that is far more than >what VMS has, and VMS' last remainng stance is the enterprise market. > > >Now, Imagine if Sue were hired by Apple to head an "enterprise" division >? She'd have no problems getting disasffected HP customers to move from >VMS to OS-X. I spoke this week with a company with a VMS solution. They are being asked more and more to support Macs over Weendoze. >Demographic trends may be on Apple's side. All those college kids >wielding iPods have created a deep pool of potential Mac users. >According to a survey of 1,200 undergrads by researcher Student Monitor >this year, 43% of college students who intend to buy a laptop plan to >buy a Mac, up from 8% in 2003. "Many of today's technology >decision-makers will ultimately be replaced by Mac users," says Eric >Weil, managing partner of Student Monitor. I hosted some of my friends from around the world over the past 2 weeks -- UK, DK and OK. I took them around to see the sights. One day, in need of bladder relief, I took them to the most ornate tiolets I know to urinate -- the bathroom of Wilson Hall on the Monmouth University campus (my old alma matter and it was along the way). I noticed that most of the students that passed us by were toting Macs. In fact, I only spied 1 Dell laptop during the time we were on the campus. Perhaps there is hope with this next gener- ation after all. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 08:14:24 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: Desktop wars Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > FredK wrote: > >> The "desktop" wars ended years ago. Windows won. The UNIX workstation >> market collapsed. As a consolation prize, Linux PC's are available for >> those who crave a UNIX desktop. > > > I suspect Mark Shuttleworth, head cheese for Ubuntu would disagree with > you. Ubuntu is under very active development and for a relatively new > solution, has a very impressive list of available software, incluidng > Adobe PDF viewer. VMS has had X windows for 20 or so years and all it > has is the old XPDF utility (that doesn't even come with VMS). VMS *had* > a great word processor (DECwrite) at the time, but Digital didn't even > try to price/sell it to normal offices. > > Just because the owners of VMS decided to not even maintain a presence > in the workstation market (and under Palmer, go much further by agreeing > to cannabalise its own products to please Bill Gates) does not mean > that Dec couldn't have had a decent presence in the desktop. > > Had Dec made its workstations with decwrite etc affordable right off the > bat, Get serious! DEC was not interested in "affordable". "All the traffic will bear plus 50%" seems to have been their objective. They wanted a piece of the mainframe market and couldn't see that "the desktop is where it's at!" ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2008 08:48:44 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: In article <48232b5d$0$7268$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > For the "workstation" environment, I was provided some time ago with a > nice patch which provided scrolling wheel support on VMS-Alpha-DECWindows. > > This essentially generated up/down arrow movements as seen from an > application't point of view. > > However, having heeded the recommendations that VMS wasn't meant to be a > workstation anymore, I have shutdown my alpha workstation and only have > one alpha "server" still running (as well as a VAX). That's just plain silly. My Alpha running 8.3 is my favorite workstation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 06:27:18 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:48:44 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > That's just plain silly. My Alpha running 8.3 is my favorite > workstation. How do you run Acrobat professional, spread sheets, Autocad, do I need to go on? -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 14:27:31 +0100 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: <7jYUj.25378$j7.467336@news.indigo.ie> > Is there a way to change some definition *ON VMS* so that applications > on VMS will see up/down arrow events when the foreign mouse wheel is > used ? Or would this absolutely have to be done on the Mac to redefine > the mouse events into up/down events (which would then affect all X > applications displaying on the Mac, not just those coming from a VMS > application) I've found when using DECterm windows with Hummingbird, I could get wheelmouse scrolling by defining the wheel as CTRL/up-arrow and CTRL/down-arrow. --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: yyyc186 Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: > In article <48232b5d$0$7268$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > However, having heeded the recommendations that VMS wasn't meant to be a > > workstation anymore, I have shutdown my alpha workstation and only have > > one alpha "server" still running (as well as a VAX). If you listen to HP, you aren't supposed to use OpenVMS at all. You are supposed to use that worthless HP/UX stuff. Most companies are putting Ubuntu with OpenOffice on the desktop these days. Completely avoiding all HP products, including their printers. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2008 13:18:15 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > How do you run Acrobat professional, spread sheets, Autocad, do I need to > go on? > A bunch of stuff I have no use for? No, you do not need to go on. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 08 13:44:08 EDT From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >> >> How do you run Acrobat professional, spread sheets, Autocad, do I need to >> go on? >> > > A bunch of stuff I have no use for? No, you do not need to go on. Agreed. You mentioned nothing which I have any use for, which is why my primary workstations are VMS both at work and home. I do keep old Macs at both locations which are rarely used. For example, the Mac at home is mainly used to update the time settings in my X-10 house controller. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 02:46:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Subject: test Message-ID: <565570a4-a73e-4f53-86fb-0ca5a726bcaa@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> test ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:51:25 +0100 From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: What systems can use USB? Message-ID: "FredK" wrote in message news:fvqmtf$6ao$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > > The "desktop" wars ended years ago. Windows won. The UNIX workstation > market collapsed. As a consolation prize, Linux PC's are available for > those who crave a UNIX desktop. > Two years ago, few people would have disagreed with you that Windows won. Times can change though. In particular the much-delayed arrival of Vista (and the associated Office "upgrades") changes things. Vista's "success" in the market (no one sensible buys it unless they have to) shows that even Microsoft's monopoly isn't necessarily forever. No sensible and informed person chooses to buy it retail. Many folks are force-fed Vista on new PCs, but some major PC vendors are still offering routes to Windows XP either discreetly or blatantly, depending on how Microsoft-dependent they are, and in the corporate world, any pre-loaded Vista is often immediately overwritten with the local standard image of XP or in some cases Win2K, and there's no corporate plan to upgrade the installed base to Vista. Even MS's Ballmer has said that they'd be crazy not to extend the life of XP if customers preferred it to Vista. The MS spin machine went into full denial mode immediately afterwards, but the damage had been done. E.g. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/24/xp_ballmer_customer_demand/ There's going to be a lot of Windows out there for the foreseeable future, but probably less in % terms than they're used to. Regards John ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2008 13:22:40 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: What systems can use USB? Message-ID: In article , "John Wallace" writes: > > In particular the much-delayed arrival of Vista (and the associated Office > "upgrades") changes things. Vista's "success" in the market (no one sensible > buys it unless they have to) shows that even Microsoft's monopoly isn't > necessarily forever. The only people I know of who have Vista and/or the new Office are kids at my daughter's college who were clueless when the bought new PCs for their frosh year. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.259 ************************