INFO-VAX Thu, 02 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 531 Contents: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: mounting USB Sandisk Re: mounting USB Sandisk Re: mounting USB Sandisk Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:02:18 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Message-ID: <48E41D9A.6D912F5F@spam.comcast.net> Rod wrote: > > > > OMSAIS tool (Alpha to Integrity translator) > > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsais.html > > FYI, HP-published version of V/A OMSAIS V2 as of Sep/2008 doesn't > support translating binaries generated from the OpenVMS/Alpha BASIC > compiler. > > $ aest hworld.exe /aud > %AEST-W-RTLNOTSUPP, programming language BASIC is not currently > supported AEST (V2.0, Bld DEV_0.8/Aug 30 2006) %AEST-W-TRANSWARN, > Translation completed with warnings -- review them before usi ng the > output image > > hworld.bas: > 1010 print "hello world" > 1020 end Note that the constraint is not the language itself, rather its the RTL and the use of VAX floating point. When it originally came out, the authors of AEST said they could not make any brash assumptions about what any specific user program would use, and there were no work-arounds for the performance issues surrounding the conversion of x-FLOAT datatypes to IEEE and back to allow manipulation of the data by the I64 CPU. D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 02:13:49 GMT From: "Tim E. Sneddon" Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > Rod wrote: >>>> OMSAIS tool (Alpha to Integrity translator) >>>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsais.html >> FYI, HP-published version of V/A OMSAIS V2 as of Sep/2008 doesn't >> support translating binaries generated from the OpenVMS/Alpha BASIC >> compiler. >> >> $ aest hworld.exe /aud >> %AEST-W-RTLNOTSUPP, programming language BASIC is not currently >> supported AEST (V2.0, Bld DEV_0.8/Aug 30 2006) %AEST-W-TRANSWARN, >> Translation completed with warnings -- review them before usi ng the >> output image >> >> hworld.bas: >> 1010 print "hello world" >> 1020 end > > Note that the constraint is not the language itself, rather its the RTL > and the use of VAX floating point. When it originally came out, the > authors of AEST said they could not make any brash assumptions about > what any specific user program would use, and there were no work-arounds > for the performance issues surrounding the conversion of x-FLOAT > datatypes to IEEE and back to allow manipulation of the data by the I64 > CPU. > That's sort of true. There is a bit more to it. The biggest problem with BASIC is that on the Alpha it doesn't use the LIB$ routines for traversing the call stack. It uses some hand-crafted code that is designed to work faster than the LIB$ interface. Every time a BASIC routine is entered it looks around for a context block that contains details about floating point rounding and other important stuff. The problem here is that because the Alpha and I64 stacks are intertwined this hand crafted code can get lost. It also provides some entertainment when it trys to do exception handling. Floating point performance is poor. This is because, at the moment, it's all done by hand. There is no conversion between VAX and IEEE and back again. The instruction eumulator does all the math itself. Tim. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:09:38 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: In article , Joseph Huber writes: > Anyway, defining these two commands should be removed from the template: > only in case of local attached terminal or LAT login they will work. > Most people either login through remote (telnet,ssh) or in a X11 session: > in those cases the shutdown or reboot will only start the shutdown and then > leave the system in an inconsistent state. Actually, I have experience with a reboot via telnet. It worked several times. Was I just lucky? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 2008 15:38:03 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article , Joseph Huber > writes: > >> Anyway, defining these two commands should be removed from the template: >> only in case of local attached terminal or LAT login they will work. >> Most people either login through remote (telnet,ssh) or in a X11 session: >> in those cases the shutdown or reboot will only start the shutdown and then >> leave the system in an inconsistent state. > > Actually, I have experience with a reboot via telnet. It worked several > times. Was I just lucky? Older systems had those problems. Currently telnet and X11 do not, but ssh may. If you go back far enough, you could do a shutdown from batch, but not from CTERM or RTPAD (DECnet terminal emulation). A long time ago changes to the batch system prevented doing it from batch. I have scripts that start detached processes to do it, and sometimes I submit those scripts to batch. Once the detached process has started it doesn't matter what happens to the batch job. I also have a detached process running on all my hobbyist systems that listens for a doorbell lock and a privileged program that rings that doorbell so my kids can bring the cluster up and down when they want without having privileges. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:26:09 GMT From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:09:38 +0000 (UTC), helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > > Anyway, defining these two commands should be removed from the template: > > only in case of local attached terminal or LAT login they will work. > > Most people either login through remote (telnet,ssh) or in a X11 session: > > in those cases the shutdown or reboot will only start the shutdown and then > > leave the system in an inconsistent state. > > Actually, I have experience with a reboot via telnet. It worked several > times. Was I just lucky? No, you weren't. The shutdown procedure first creates your process tree, if any: i.e., if you start shutdown from within a subprocess, it will create a list of PIDs representing the hierarchy from that subprocess up to and including the process created when you logged in. Then it will look for every process in the system and stop it if it is running with a UIC greater than [1,*], and if its name does not start with "DECW$", and if its name isn't "TCPIP$SSH_SSHD2", and if its PID isn't present in the previously built process tree. So, if you start shutdown from a telnet, ssh, DECwindows or DECnet connected session, it should finish correctly because neither TCP/IP main process (which run as [1,4]) nor ssh server or DECterm (because they are explicitly skipped) will be killed along the way. DECnet will be put in shut (not off) state so to disallow further activity without disrupting existing network links, and its main processes run in group 1 (NETACP as [1,4], REMACP and NET$ACP as [1,3]). LAT too does work the same because LATACP runs as [1,4] like many others. Instead, if you submit SHUTDOWN.COM for batch processing, you'll be in trouble because - well before the end of the procedure - it proceeds to stop all the queues and all the queue managers, so it would kill itself leaving the system in a weird state. To "batch" shutdown you must use a detached process as it will be comprised in the above mentioned process tree, thus protecting itself. Look for "job_tree" and "qman_name" in SHUTDOWN.COM and proceed from there. HTH, G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:55:38 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: <48e3f2cd$0$12376$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> gerry77@no.spam.mail.com wrote: > So, if you start shutdown from a telnet, ssh, DECwindows or DECnet connected > session, it should finish correctly because neither TCP/IP main process (which > run as [1,4]) nor ssh server or DECterm (because they are explicitly skipped) > will be killed along the way. If your site shutdown procedure shuts down TCPIP Services as it should do, then your telnet session gets killed at that point. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:58:12 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: In article , Bob Koehler wrote: >In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip >Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >> In article , Joseph Huber >> writes: >> >>> Anyway, defining these two commands should be removed from the template: >>> only in case of local attached terminal or LAT login they will work. >>> Most people either login through remote (telnet,ssh) or in a X11 session: >>> in those cases the shutdown or reboot will only start the shutdown and then >>> leave the system in an inconsistent state. >> >> Actually, I have experience with a reboot via telnet. It worked several >> times. Was I just lucky? > > Older systems had those problems. Currently telnet and X11 do not, > but ssh may. If you go back far enough, you could do a shutdown from > batch, but not from CTERM or RTPAD (DECnet terminal emulation). As of V8.3, SHUTDOWN from TELNET and SSH work fine; I haven't attempted it from X11, but I will believe that it works. I don't know when the change took place, but once I was told of the change, I tried it , and it worked. [...] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:11:29 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: <48E41FC1.AB19D376@spam.comcast.net> Joseph Huber wrote: > > gerry77@no.spam.mail.com wrote: > > > So, what's your opinion? A wrong template in V7.x? I was just curious > > about that and about historical variance (if any) of shutdown procedure > > parameters. Are you running a V6.x system? Is there that template? It's > > right or wrong? > > Whatever was the reason to change the template, in my opinion both do it > wrong: > p3 (disk rundown) is the same for SHUTDOWN and REBOOT, but should be > YES for SHUTDOWN, NO for REBOOT. > And p4 (run syshutdwn) should always be YES. > > Anyway, defining these two commands should be removed from the template: > only in case of local attached terminal or LAT login they will work. > Most people either login through remote (telnet,ssh) or in a X11 session: > in those cases the shutdown or reboot will only start the shutdown and then > leave the system in an inconsistent state. > > My definitions look like this: > > $ SHUTDOWN :== @CLUSTER$MANAGER:DETACH_SHUTDOWN > $ REBOOT :== @CLUSTER$MANAGER:DETACH_REBOOT > > where the detach_*.com files start a detached process doing the > shutdown/reboot, so they can be used without knowing how I'm logged in. I'd be interested in seeing your detached process proc.'s (.COMs). D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:16:06 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: mounting USB Sandisk Message-ID: forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam wrote: > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.uiat9kr2hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net... >> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:56:04 -0700, forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam >> wrote: >> >>> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >>> news:op.uh9n7fiyhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net... >>>> I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with >>>> /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why? >>>> >>> There are capabilities needed for MSCP serving that are not in the >>> driver. >> Any plans to do so? BTW, what is the transfer rate on USB? > > No to the MSCP question. Apparently shadowing doesn't work either. I tried shadowing a couple of external 500GB drives (HP Personal Media drives). The first drive mounted and worked ok, but the system crashed when I tried to add the second drive to the shadowset(exception above ASTDEL). I also found that dismounting the single member shadowset would crash the system. I've also noticed that the system seems to stall for about 10 minutes early in the EFI boot sequence when the USB disks are attached (the system is a zx6000 with EFI 1.10). Yes, I know none of this is supported. Other than that the USB disks seem to work fine as data disks. The performance isn't great but it's adequate (I'm using them to archive some database exports so speed isn't a big issue) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:47:24 -0400 From: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" Subject: Re: mounting USB Sandisk Message-ID: "Malcolm Dunnett" wrote in message news:z9WEk.673$yu1.405@newsfe04.iad... > forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam wrote: >> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >> news:op.uiat9kr2hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net... >>> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:56:04 -0700, forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam >>> wrote: >>> >>>> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >>>> news:op.uh9n7fiyhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net... >>>>> I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with >>>>> /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why? >>>>> >>>> There are capabilities needed for MSCP serving that are not in the >>>> driver. >>> Any plans to do so? BTW, what is the transfer rate on USB? >> >> No to the MSCP question. > > Apparently shadowing doesn't work either. I tried shadowing a couple of > external 500GB drives (HP Personal Media drives). The first drive mounted > and worked ok, but the system crashed when I tried to add the second drive > to the shadowset(exception above ASTDEL). I also found that dismounting > the single member shadowset would crash the system. Same comment for shadowing there are feature it needs that we just don't provide and have no plans to provide. The goal for mass storage was be able to install off of a USB DVD or using vMedia. Be able to burn a USB DVD. That is anything else the works is outside of the goals set for Mass Storage. I have made changes to DNDRIVER that will keep it from crashing in the future. > > I've also noticed that the system seems to stall for about 10 minutes > early in the EFI boot sequence when the USB disks are attached (the system > is a zx6000 with EFI 1.10). Yes, I know none of this is supported. > Define early before you can invoke VMS_LOADER or after. If before I know what that is and it won't be fixed for zx6000, zx2000, or 2600. If after vms_loader is invoked I don't have an explaination but it should not be happening. > Other than that the USB disks seem to work fine as data disks. The > performance isn't great but it's adequate (I'm using them to archive some > database exports so speed isn't a big issue) Forrest ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:07:24 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: mounting USB Sandisk Message-ID: forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam wrote: >> I've also noticed that the system seems to stall for about 10 minutes >> early in the EFI boot sequence when the USB disks are attached (the system >> is a zx6000 with EFI 1.10). Yes, I know none of this is supported. >> > Define early before you can invoke VMS_LOADER or after. If before I > know what that is and it won't be fixed for zx6000, zx2000, or 2600. Before VMS_LOADER. It's right after the EFI banner shows up (before the SCSI disks get discovered). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:28:49 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: <48e3ec85$0$4543$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> As an outspoken critic of HP's handling of VMS, I am flaberghasted to see people complain about HP updating Mozilla on VMS with a newer version (Seamonkey is just a new version of Mozilla that sports a new name, just like Mozilla was an upgrade from Netscape with better HTML rendering and more memory leaks). EVERYONE should welcome this effort. We don't have very many poositive signs from HP about VMS, but this would be one. And the rumour that Firefox is still in the works is also great. This is not just about the end application, but also the port of all the middleware make it possible to port new applications to VMS. For instance, having a more recent GTK stack on VMS would allow many more applications to be ported to VMS (Firefox requires a more recent version of GTK than had been ported for Mozilla). Consider useful tools such as Wireshark ethernet tracer which requires a modern GTK. A port is impossible to even consider unless the right GTK version is available on VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:42:47 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: <08100116424723_202004A1@antinode.info> From: JF Mezei > As an outspoken critic of HP's handling of VMS, I am flaberghasted to > see people complain about HP updating Mozilla on VMS with a newer > version (Seamonkey is just a new version of Mozilla that sports a new > name, It's a mystery to me, too. I realize that I provide little or no direct income to HP, so my preferences may matter little to them, but I certainly don't wish to run a second computer just to do basic Web browsing. (It's annoying enough to be forced to fire up the Mac to watch the daily Peep show ("http://www.peepandthebigwideworld.com/videos/"). > just like Mozilla was an upgrade from Netscape with better HTML > rendering and more memory leaks). Not exactly. And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla." "about:mozilla" has worked for a long time, too, for example. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:17:35 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > Craig A. Berry wrote: > >> >> >> Rich Jordan wrote: >> >>> On Sep 30, 7:31 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >>> Koehler) wrote: >>> >>>> In article , "Tom >>>> Linden" writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Why on earth would VMS engr spend the resources to do this, I mean >>>>> who really gives a tinkers damn? >> >> >> Anybody who actually uses their VMS systems, and thus might occasionally >> want patches or new software, both of which are primarily distributed >> over the web. > > > For patches available without login, I use FETCH_HTTP > running in batch. > > For other pathes and kits, I simply (and it's *realy* simple) > use my PC as the "middleware". Download to my PC and FTP over > to the VMS *server*... > > There is no professional reason today to try to run a > browser directly on VMS. As an hobbyist it could make a nice > experiment, but that's something else. I know how to ftp things directly from ITRC, and I know how to download things to another platform and then move the files over to a VMS system, and when building from source I know how to run autoconf, rsync, and various other things that are missing on VMS elsewhere and move the results to the VMS system, but actually preferring these stone age methods when something better is available is hardly the hallmark of a professional. Having a browser to research and download patches to the system on which they will be applied is essential. It's still just bronze age and a real automated patch manager like every other modern OS has would be much better. But it's an important minimal baseline piece of software, and it's a good thing it's being updated. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that good news is bad news in this so-called newsgroup, but even JF is being uncharacteristically positive -- what's wrong with you people? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:13:08 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:29:26 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: >> >> Digital years ago stopped supporting VMS on the desktop and trying to >> deploy >> it in that manner is like swimming upstream. There is so much that is >> missing, >> hell I can't even get a decent version of emacs. What about brower >> plugins, >> spreadsheets, ...? > > So why do you bother following c.o.v and trying to sell PL/I to the > VMS market? > Your question seems to be a bit of a non-sequitur, we were talking about the desktop concept, but I wil try an answer anyway. Because it is the best programming language available on VMS and we still have a customer base to support. As for COV there are a few interesting technical discussions -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:45:09 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: <48e3f057$0$12373$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Tom Linden wrote: > Because it is the best programming language available on VMS and we still > have a customer base to support. As for COV there are a few interesting > technical discussions STILL is the keyword here. It provides the image that you exepct your market to go away and diminish. Compare this with othert operating systems where the owner and the ISVs have expectations that their customer base will grow and want to expand the reach of that OS to new markets. Linux was able to get a substantial amount of desktop software. There is no reason why VMS couldn't have done the same. Getting 1% of the desktop market is still a HUGE market that is bigger than what VMS has left as a niche and obscure backroom OS. The porting of Firefox and GTK would send a good signal that VMS is able to run modern software, not just old legacy stuff. And that is a positive step that could be used if VMS were to be marketed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:05:00 -0700 From: Marty Kuhrt Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: George Cook wrote: > In article <48dff42a$0$1527$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >> This is very OT, but I'd like some feedback from intelligent people... >> >> It wasn't so long ago that Russia essentially transfered the assets from >> Yukos Oil to some other oil company. >> >> This past Thursday, instead of lending money to Washington Mutual like >> it has done to the Wall Street banks over the last couple of months, the >> FDIC seized assets of Washington Mutual and immediatly gave them to >> Chase Manhattan (or whatever it is called this week with all the mergers >> it has had). The 1.9 billion Chase paid for the WaMu bank's assets went >> to FDIC. >> >> Washington Mutual shareholders were left to hold worthless stock because >> the FDIC did not arrange for a sale of the bank to Chase, they >> transfered assets. (This is different from the wall street emergency >> mergers such as Bear Stearns where BS shareholders will get money and >> will get to approve the deal). >> >> Am I the only one who is highly suspicious of this transaction ? Looks >> to me that Washington is acting solely in the interest of a few Wall >> Street Casino establishements (because of their good frienships with >> Washington). >> >> WaMu had grown from a small regional bank that was no threath to Wall >> Street into a sizeable bank that was stealing customers. And Chase found >> a very easy and cheap way to kill off a competitor and get its assets. >> >> About a week and a half ago, rumours of WaMu not doing well started to >> surface. I heard it on the BBC, so this wasn't just "local" rumours. >> Obviously, this causes a run on on the bank. Shouldn't the SEC >> investigate this ? Obviously, it would be politically impossible for the >> SEC to find that Chase started those rumours. >> >> And the timing of this also fits nicely with Bush's "if you don't >> approve the 700 billion packlage to help the wall street casino before >> sunday night, the whole USA banking system will crumble". Having a large >> bank fail just before this greatly helps motivate the congress/senate to >> pass that bill and makes it easier to convince the population of the >> needs to give a 700 billion gift to Wall Street (but not lend 16 billion >> to WaMu to ride through a temporary patch of bad time). >> >> >> BTW, it is highly irresponsible for a president/prime minister to >> announce that the country's banking system will crumble in 3 days if >> they don't approve his project. This is a self fulfilling prophecy thing >> because the rest of the world and the USA investors would immediatly >> pull their money from USA banks on sunday night/monday morning and cause >> it to crumble. So USA legislators have no choice but to pass that bill now. > > 1. Never use intelligence as an explanation when stupidity will > suffice. If Wall Street and Washington were even half as smart > as your conspiracy theories require, we wouldn't be on the brink > of a global financial collapse. > > 2. The situation is worse than most dare say out loud. Anyone > who understands the functioning of monetary systems knows that > money is little more than an illusion and that monetary and financial > systems are nothing more than very large, very elaborate houses > of cards. The US financial house of cards very nearly totally > collapsed about ten days ago (the global house of cards would > have come down soon after). > > 3. Fortunately, unlike during the collapse which caused the Great > Depression (which we only escaped from by having a major war), > the US government appears ready to do whatever is needed. > > 4. The collapse started with the subprime debacle which turned out > to be much worse than anyone initially thought (instead of > "irrational enthusiasm," Greenspan should have said "total mass > insanity.") Since then Washington has been shoring up the house by > moving cards from the sturdier parts to the weaker parts (a little > like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic) and by making more > cards (aka "printing money"). > > 5. Bush can either do pretty much exactly what he is doing, or he can > go down in history as Herbert Hoover II. As far as who to blame > in Washington, the Democrats are every bit as much at fault as the > Republicans. > > 6. WaMu's so called assets are going to cause Chase to absorb around > $35 billion in bad debt if I recall the numbers correctly. There > is only so much bad debt Chase, Bank of America and foreign banks > can take on. If too many large banks fail, there will be no one > left to absorb them. > > > George Cook Here are some links that explain (in somewhat easy to understand lingo) how some of this mess got rolling... http://techdirt.com/articles/20080929/0426042403.shtml http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/subprime-overview.asp?viewall=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:01:43 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <00A80767.7603E9C4@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , Marty Kuhrt writes: >George Cook wrote: >> In article <48dff42a$0$1527$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>> This is very OT, but I'd like some feedback from intelligent people... >>> >>> It wasn't so long ago that Russia essentially transfered the assets from >>> Yukos Oil to some other oil company. >>> >>> This past Thursday, instead of lending money to Washington Mutual like >>> it has done to the Wall Street banks over the last couple of months, the >>> FDIC seized assets of Washington Mutual and immediatly gave them to >>> Chase Manhattan (or whatever it is called this week with all the mergers >>> it has had). The 1.9 billion Chase paid for the WaMu bank's assets went >>> to FDIC. >>> >>> Washington Mutual shareholders were left to hold worthless stock because >>> the FDIC did not arrange for a sale of the bank to Chase, they >>> transfered assets. (This is different from the wall street emergency >>> mergers such as Bear Stearns where BS shareholders will get money and >>> will get to approve the deal). >>> >>> Am I the only one who is highly suspicious of this transaction ? Looks >>> to me that Washington is acting solely in the interest of a few Wall >>> Street Casino establishements (because of their good frienships with >>> Washington). >>> >>> WaMu had grown from a small regional bank that was no threath to Wall >>> Street into a sizeable bank that was stealing customers. And Chase found >>> a very easy and cheap way to kill off a competitor and get its assets. >>> >>> About a week and a half ago, rumours of WaMu not doing well started to >>> surface. I heard it on the BBC, so this wasn't just "local" rumours. >>> Obviously, this causes a run on on the bank. Shouldn't the SEC >>> investigate this ? Obviously, it would be politically impossible for the >>> SEC to find that Chase started those rumours. >>> >>> And the timing of this also fits nicely with Bush's "if you don't >>> approve the 700 billion packlage to help the wall street casino before >>> sunday night, the whole USA banking system will crumble". Having a large >>> bank fail just before this greatly helps motivate the congress/senate to >>> pass that bill and makes it easier to convince the population of the >>> needs to give a 700 billion gift to Wall Street (but not lend 16 billion >>> to WaMu to ride through a temporary patch of bad time). >>> >>> >>> BTW, it is highly irresponsible for a president/prime minister to >>> announce that the country's banking system will crumble in 3 days if >>> they don't approve his project. This is a self fulfilling prophecy thing >>> because the rest of the world and the USA investors would immediatly >>> pull their money from USA banks on sunday night/monday morning and cause >>> it to crumble. So USA legislators have no choice but to pass that bill now. >> >> 1. Never use intelligence as an explanation when stupidity will >> suffice. If Wall Street and Washington were even half as smart >> as your conspiracy theories require, we wouldn't be on the brink >> of a global financial collapse. >> >> 2. The situation is worse than most dare say out loud. Anyone >> who understands the functioning of monetary systems knows that >> money is little more than an illusion and that monetary and financial >> systems are nothing more than very large, very elaborate houses >> of cards. The US financial house of cards very nearly totally >> collapsed about ten days ago (the global house of cards would >> have come down soon after). >> >> 3. Fortunately, unlike during the collapse which caused the Great >> Depression (which we only escaped from by having a major war), >> the US government appears ready to do whatever is needed. >> >> 4. The collapse started with the subprime debacle which turned out >> to be much worse than anyone initially thought (instead of >> "irrational enthusiasm," Greenspan should have said "total mass >> insanity.") Since then Washington has been shoring up the house by >> moving cards from the sturdier parts to the weaker parts (a little >> like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic) and by making more >> cards (aka "printing money"). >> >> 5. Bush can either do pretty much exactly what he is doing, or he can >> go down in history as Herbert Hoover II. As far as who to blame >> in Washington, the Democrats are every bit as much at fault as the >> Republicans. >> >> 6. WaMu's so called assets are going to cause Chase to absorb around >> $35 billion in bad debt if I recall the numbers correctly. There >> is only so much bad debt Chase, Bank of America and foreign banks >> can take on. If too many large banks fail, there will be no one >> left to absorb them. >> >> >> George Cook > >Here are some links that explain (in somewhat easy to understand lingo) >how some of this mess got rolling... > >http://techdirt.com/articles/20080929/0426042403.shtml > >http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/subprime-overview.asp?viewall=1 BUT, for anyone to really understand, they first need to understand just what money is. I doubt that many do. I've tried to get people to look at this without the political blinders of accusation but they refuse to look at it objectively because the answer is so outlandish they find it incredulous. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:05:19 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <48E41E4F.6C6FFFE3@spam.comcast.net> Neil Rieck wrote: > > <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> It may be more accurate to say that we only open our wallets when the price is within our means. For most companies, that means price-competitive with Wintel. For many hobbyists, it comes down to VMS-capable gear or family needs.` D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:57:38 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? Message-ID: <48E41C81.61840B58@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > >> On VMS V8.3+ Alpha/Integrity - > >> > >> $ Show Proc x/cont > >> Hit W (from memory, or Q? to flip back and forth) > > > > Didn't want to make any brash assumptions about his VMS version... > > Well, i run 8.3 on an alpha. > > And "Q" does provide quotas, but not the working set one. Looks a lot > like show proc/quota in fact. Use SDA (ANALYZE/SYSTEM) then. SHOW PROCESS should give you what you want. D.J.D. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.531 ************************