INFO-VAX Fri, 24 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 575 Contents: Re: Can I get a basic compiler without a license? Re: Can I get a basic compiler without a license? Re: Disabling the F6 interrupt function Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long History of the qio efn issue Re: History of the qio efn issue Re: History of the qio efn issue Re: History of the qio efn issue Re: History of the qio efn issue Re: How to make a java memory dump Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Request for information on TurbeCache, TurboWare, or SpeedCache Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Re: What does this mean? Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 00:30:02 -0700 (PDT) From: johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Can I get a basic compiler without a license? Message-ID: <85bdc9e7-6f4d-41d8-abd6-6cd6ba8b7a97@p49g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Oct 24, 2:42 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Nolan Hamilton wrote: > > Yes, 50$ is too much for someone who is less than 18 yrs old and does > > not have a job. > > Get a job! You are talking about expensive toys. Computers, Operating > Systems, Compilers, . . . . Pretty soon you'll be wanting an Oracle > database. This stuff all costs money, even for hobbyist use. For > commercial use, we are talking about thousands or tens of thousands of > dollars for software licenses! > > I don't know what a Basic compiler/interpreter for Windows would cost > but that's not cheap either. My guess would be $300 - $500. Best not to assume, it can make folk look silly. For folks who want to follow the "industry standard" route, Visual Studio Express is a free ($0) download with enough functionality to do lots of hip trendy MS- specific things. Visual Studio Academic Edition (full multi-language IDE, limited packaging) is =A3100 (probably $100?) or so [1]. For those not in qualifying education there are/were competitive upgrades available [2] at very roughly half the normal full price, and (at least in the past) some of the products which qualify are/were freely downloadable. For folks who don't want to be locked into one particular OS/tool vendor and their products, there are alternatives, some of which are multi-platform and even compatible across platforms e.g. the free compiler/IDE stuff, like the Eclipse IDE and the various free compilers which can go with it (some gcc-based, some not). And then there are the free databases... not really my field, but they exist, and plenty of people trust their businesses to them. Not saying any of this lot is any good, but a full development- >deployment suite for small scale development usually doesn't cost $300-$500 either. No one with any sense is paying $300+ for an IA32 or x86-64 compiler, except perhaps if they're a corporate paying for the alleged "team"/"enterprise" features in Studio (like, er, a profiling tool!), and even then they'll get a discount off list through MS Select or whatever it's now called. VMS doesn't benefit from many of these free things, partly because the OS environment is sufficiently different that a port from a Unix/GNU- Linux environment is often non-trivial, and partly because no one outside HP cares much about that IA64 thing which is mostly an obstacle to be overcome for anyone with an interest in moving to (or staying on) VMS. Whatever the few "on message" folks in the IA64 world may think, to most of the rest of the world, that IA64 thing is pretty much always a negative, whether you're a user, developer, reseller, etc. $50 for the hobbyist licence isn't a huge amount of money, but it clearly is obstructing a few folks, and $50 to the wrong people is *always* a Bad Idea. I'll ask again, how much of that $50 do the user groups get to keep, what do they actually do to justify their share? [1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Visual-Studio-Pro-2008-Academic/dp/B000WLY9WW [2] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Visual-Studio-Standard-2008-Upgrade/dp/B000WLY9= XG ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 09:01:57 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Can I get a basic compiler without a license? Message-ID: In article <32895960-102c-4022-a279-5a074725b13d@f77g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, FrankS writes: > > I don't have the info, but wasn't there a way to get free access to > some OpenVMS systems for development, testing, and/or hacking > purposes, someplace? Like maybe HP? Deathrow? > > Maybe someone else can fill in the details. Eisner, VAX6000, Deathrow, HP test drive systems, ... Many come to mind. What you are allowed to "hack" will vary, in most cases you cannot get a privileged account. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 08:56:58 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Disabling the F6 interrupt function Message-ID: In article , tadamsmar writes: > > But I had bored certified assistance with running the AST at executive > mode and that did not work. Don't know how to run it at kernel mode. Even a kernel mode AST won't block device driver routines, since they are at higher IPL. >> =A0 =A0But it doesn't prevent the device driver from processing the >> =A0 =A0interrupt. >> Perhaps the AST needs to be set up as an attention AST >> =A0 =A0so the driver will know to fire it. > > How do you set up an attention AST? I've seen this done in an application, but it's been a long time. The terminal driver itself does not allow you to specify an attention AST. But you can associate a mailbox with the terminal via the $ASSIGN system service and hang the ASTs off the mailbox. I/O User's Guide section 5.2.4 goes into this. The mailbox will not get user data, it just gets status information, like notifying you of unsolicited input. IIRC, we had to set the terminal /noescape, which needed to be changed if we then wanted to use EDT on the same terminal. But that may have been due to the data we were reading. IIRC, we disabled ^Y from DCL before bringing up the application. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 06:10:48 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Message-ID: On Oct 23, 4:20=A0pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , AEF writes: > > > > >On Oct 22, 9:23=3DA0pm, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> Alan, > > >> I copied a file to your EISNER account default. =3DA0It is called: > > >> GET_COMMAND_LINE_RECALL.COM > > >> It uses SYMBOL (which is installed on EISNER) and gets the DCL > >> command line recall info similar to RECALL/ALL. =3DA0This procedure > >> shows how easy it is to get this using DCL. =3DA0You can modify the > >> procedure to do what you may want in addition to its accessing > >> the recall buffer. > > >> -- > >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0VAXm= an(at)TME=3D > >SIS(dot)COM > > >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional pr= ote=3D > >ction > >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be= . (=3D > >NJSC) > > >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =3DA0Publication of _this_ usenet art= icle =3D > >outside > >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this c= opy=3D > >right > >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > > >Thanks, VAXMAN. I tried it today and it works great! > > I put a slight modified version in your directory a little while ago. > I didn't handle cases where a command string can get broken into two > pieces in the recall buffer. =A0 > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TME= SIS(dot)COM > > ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional prote= ction > no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (= NJSC) > > Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet article = outside > of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copy= right > notice, disclaimer and quotations. Thanks again. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:43:10 -0600 From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 at 11:17 -0700, AEF wrote: > $ TYPE RECA.COM > $ pipe recall/out=x.lis ! ; search x.lis sea > $ @RECA > $ DIR/SIZE X.LIS > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found > $ I don't remember all that has gone on in the past on this thread, but as I recall RECALL/OUT in a command file does not create an output file. It does not on Eisner and it does not on my 7.1 system. Did anybody ever say that this had been made to work? -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 05:17:35 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: History of the qio efn issue Message-ID: <4c506fc9-e35f-4668-8320-b6ffd55180a2@g61g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> When I started programming on VMS back in the 80s, I don't recall being told that you needed to have a default efn for the first argument of the qio. And, lots of the examples in VMS documentation (old documentation at least) have no default. Just curious, when did that issue emerge? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 05:34:22 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: History of the qio efn issue Message-ID: <9d964cb3-82b6-44f6-ae78-f3c4501aa7bf@v28g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Oct 24, 1:17=A0pm, tadamsmar wrote: > When I started programming on VMS back in the 80s, I don't recall > being told that you needed to have a default efn for the first > argument of the qio. =A0 And, lots of the examples in VMS documentation > (old documentation at least) have no default. > > Just curious, when did that issue emerge? SYS$QIO is a system service and all arguments have to be supplied. Some programming languages fill in the blanks with 0 for you. The EFN parameter is required and 0 is a valid value. However multiple simultaneous use of a event flag in a program leads to trouble. Therefore the advice to use a non zero value to avoid other parts of the program that may be using 0. In some version of VMS a special event flag (number 128) was invented as a better answer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:17:31 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: History of the qio efn issue Message-ID: <00A8194A.305EA863@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <4c506fc9-e35f-4668-8320-b6ffd55180a2@g61g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: >When I started programming on VMS back in the 80s, I don't recall >being told that you needed to have a default efn for the first >argument of the qio. And, lots of the examples in VMS documentation >(old documentation at least) have no default. > >Just curious, when did that issue emerge? It didn't. If you specify no EFN, in most languages and in the Macro32 macros, the EFN defaults to EFN 0. The examples are examples; they're not perfect nor infallible. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 11:41:18 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: History of the qio efn issue Message-ID: In article <4c506fc9-e35f-4668-8320-b6ffd55180a2@g61g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: > When I started programming on VMS back in the 80s, I don't recall > being told that you needed to have a default efn for the first > argument of the qio. And, lots of the examples in VMS documentation > (old documentation at least) have no default. > > Just curious, when did that issue emerge? Since the EFN is passed by value, leaving it out tends to get you EFN 0. Having lots of things dependent on EFN 0 could lead to bugs. If you don't depend on the EFN, or only have one such thing outstanding at a time, it's not likely to be a problem. OBTW, since the introduction of $SYNC, which synchronous forms of asynchronous routines use (like, $QIOW is to $QIO), it is possible to share EFNs as long as the IOSBs are not shared. This is quite usefull when writing utility routines, so you don't have to have a compact with the using code over who will use which EFN. Don't forget VMS uses some EFNs. Want to make sure no one else is using your EFN? Create your own EFN cluster. But you still may have to agree to the EFN numbers with other coders. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:39:14 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: History of the qio efn issue Message-ID: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >In article <4c506fc9-e35f-4668-8320-b6ffd55180a2@g61g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: >> When I started programming on VMS back in the 80s, I don't recall >> being told that you needed to have a default efn for the first >> argument of the qio. And, lots of the examples in VMS documentation >> (old documentation at least) have no default. >> >> Just curious, when did that issue emerge? It's always been there. > Since the EFN is passed by value, leaving it out tends to get you > EFN 0. Having lots of things dependent on EFN 0 could lead to > bugs. If you don't depend on the EFN, or only have one such thing > outstanding at a time, it's not likely to be a problem. > OBTW, since the introduction of $SYNC, which synchronous forms > of asynchronous routines use (like, $QIOW is to $QIO), it is possible > to share EFNs as long as the IOSBs are not shared. > This is quite usefull when writing utility routines, so you don't > have to have a compact with the using code over who will use which EFN. > Don't forget VMS uses some EFNs. I believe they use EFNs in the range 24-31. > Want to make sure no one else is using your EFN? Create your own > EFN cluster. But you still may have to agree to the EFN numbers with > other coders. Or use LIB$GET_EF and associated routines. Of course your whole program has to be coded to get all its efns from LIB$GET_EF or those that LIB$GET_EF will never give you. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:01:37 -0400 From: Jeff Zeeb Subject: Re: How to make a java memory dump Message-ID: tdirven@volvocars.com wrote: > Hello, > > I'm using Java based applications that are running as a detached > process on OpenVMS (Alpha and I64) > I use Java version 1.5. > The java applications consume a lot of memory. > > Is it possible to make a memory dump of all Java classes so I can find > out which java objects are using the all the RAM memory? > > /Toine Toine, When running on IA64, you can get a heap dump in several ways. For example, you can add one of these options to your Java command line: -XX:+HeapDump or -XX:+HeapDumpOnCtrlBreak. The first option will produce a text format heap dump, and the second will produce a binary format heap dump. Next, define one of the logicals JAVA$ENABLE_SIGQUIT_CTRLC or JAVA$ENABLE_SIGQUIT_MAILBOX. There is more information about these logicals in the user guide. If you were using JAVA$ENABLE_SIGQUIT_CTRLC, when you type ^C, the JVM will produce a heap dump file. An alternative would be to use hprof, by adding -agentlib:hprof=heap=dump, which will produce a heap dump when your Java progam exits. You can analyze the heap dump using the HPjmeter tool, available from http://www.hp.com/go/hpjmeter. Also on IA64, you can use the -Xverbosegc option to generate a data file containing information about garbage collections. HPjmeter can analyze this file too. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 05:13:26 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: <17aab3fb-4137-4145-b2d9-734a5cbcc11f@y71g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Oct 23, 5:39=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > I have a system > > Congratulations! Thanks! Man, I couldn't have fat-fingered better. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 05:21:37 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: On Oct 23, 4:52=A0pm, Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Oct 23, 3:27 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > I have a system > > > Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw > > that the line above was the entire post! > > > > Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full > > > question. > > > > AEF > > > Uh, that should have been: > > > "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full > > question." > > > Anyway, here's my question: > > > I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of > > them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will > > then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means that > > I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given > > time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few > > directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this > > disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks are > > 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) > > > OK, so I was thinking of > > > large value for /CLUSTER > > > large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 > > > small value for /HEADERS > > > medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES > > > What do y'all think? Is it even worth bothering with? > > > Thanks! > > AEF, > > Since it is a temporary disk, it always can be redone. > > The [effective] OP, does not mention the version of the system. It may > matter. VAX/VMS V6.2 with all needed ECO kits applied (according to the "installation ratings"). > > Extension is important. This is similar to the situation which caused > me to use RMS transparent file access, to gain the multibuffering > advantage. FAL honors the RMS buffering and blocking parameters, > BACKUP has not always done so. The DECnet overhead is far less in that > session than the repeated extends and real time delays. Yes, I figured extension was the most important as I've seen such operations go much, much faster with a large extension value. > > Remember that the allocations for the directories are minimally one > cluster, thus a truly large cluster factor is not necessarily > efficient. Also consider whether it is wise to ZIP the resuling save > sets (and verify that thy UNZIP correctly). Well, I was worried more about performance than space. Zip is an interesting option, but I don't think I'll have enough space for it. > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com Thanks to all who have replied. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 05:23:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: On Oct 23, 7:10=A0pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <26e02b21-95a3-4ad2-89db-2709bb4a8...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.= com>, Bob Gezelter writes: > > > > >On Oct 23, 4:51 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > >wrote: > >> AEF wrote: > >> > On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: > >> >> On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: > > >> >>> I have a system > > >> > Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw > >> > that the line above was the entire post! > > >> >> Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full > >> >> question. > > >> >> AEF > > >> > Uh, that should have been: > > >> > "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full > >> > question." > > >> > Anyway, here's my question: > > >> > I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of > >> > them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will > >> > then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means tha= t > >> > I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given > >> > time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few > >> > directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this > >> > disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks a= re > >> > 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) > > >> > OK, so I was thinking of > > >> > large value for /CLUSTER > > >> OK! > >> > large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 > > >> OK > > >> > small value for /HEADERS > > >> OK > >> > medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES > > >> Try SMALL! =A0You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Mas= ter > >> File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. > > >> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). T= he > >> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have tw= o > >> or three of them. =A0I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=3D10. > > >> > What do y'all think? Is it even worth bothering with? > > >> > Thanks! > > >Richard, > > >With the cluster sizes proposed, the maximum files (and file headers) > >might as well be one or two clusters each. Anything less just does not > >use the space allocated. > > Exactly. =A0However, for a couple of files, is this going to be an enormo= us > storage saving? =A0I am not fond of stuffing a drive close to its capacit= y > in some cases as there's the potential of inadequate space for the task a= t > hand. =A0 > > Wipe out the File Systems Internals and look up the calculations if you'r= e > not familiar with them to use the space most wisely. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TME= SIS(dot)COM > > ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional prote= ction > no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (= NJSC) > > Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet article = outside > of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copy= right > notice, disclaimer and quotations. Brian, WADR, you DID mean "whip out", correct? ["Wipe out" seems singularly destructive, as the book is out of print and arguably collectable? -- (smile)] - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 05:25:02 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: <55703760-28be-43dc-8e3c-f2a1c0e04388@v53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Oct 23, 5:51=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: > >> On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: > > >>> I have a system > > > Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw > > that the line above was the entire post! > > >> Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full > >> question. > > >> AEF > > > Uh, that should have been: > > > "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full > > question." > > > Anyway, here's my question: > > > I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of > > them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will > > then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means that > > I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given > > time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few > > directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this > > disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks are > > 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) > > > OK, so I was thinking of > > > large value for /CLUSTER > > OK! > > large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 > > OK > > > small value for /HEADERS > > OK > > medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES > > Try SMALL! =A0You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Master > File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. > > The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). The > BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have two > or three of them. =A0I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=3D10. Well, since the value for /MAXIMUM_FILES is such a hard limit, I thought I'd play it safe in case I want to put some other (small) files there. OTOH, as another poster pointed out, re-INITing the disk is easy. Thanks. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:35:27 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Oct 23, 7:10 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <26e02b21-95a3-4ad2-89db-2709bb4a8...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter writes: >> >> >> >>> On Oct 23, 4:51 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>> wrote: >>>> AEF wrote: >>>>> On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: >>>>>> On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: >>>>>>> I have a system >>>>> Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw >>>>> that the line above was the entire post! >>>>>> Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>>>>> question. >>>>>> AEF >>>>> Uh, that should have been: >>>>> "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>>>> question." >>>>> Anyway, here's my question: >>>>> I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of >>>>> them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will >>>>> then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means that >>>>> I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given >>>>> time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few >>>>> directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this >>>>> disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks are >>>>> 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) >>>>> OK, so I was thinking of >>>>> large value for /CLUSTER >>>> OK! >>>>> large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 >>>> OK >>>>> small value for /HEADERS >>>> OK >>>>> medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES >>>> Try SMALL! You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Master >>>> File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. >>>> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). The >>>> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have two >>>> or three of them. I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=10. >>>>> What do y'all think? Is it even worth bothering with? >>>>> Thanks! >>> Richard, >>> With the cluster sizes proposed, the maximum files (and file headers) >>> might as well be one or two clusters each. Anything less just does not >>> use the space allocated. >> Exactly. However, for a couple of files, is this going to be an enormous >> storage saving? I am not fond of stuffing a drive close to its capacity >> in some cases as there's the potential of inadequate space for the task at >> hand. >> >> Wipe out the File Systems Internals and look up the calculations if you're >> not familiar with them to use the space most wisely. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) >> >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > > Brian, > > WADR, you DID mean "whip out", correct? ["Wipe out" seems singularly > destructive, as the book is out of print and arguably collectable? -- > (smile)] > There are a number of us who can't tipe gud. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:37:31 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: AEF wrote: > On Oct 23, 5:51 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: >> AEF wrote: >>> On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: >>>> On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: >>>>> I have a system >>> Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw >>> that the line above was the entire post! >>>> Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>>> question. >>>> AEF >>> Uh, that should have been: >>> "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>> question." >>> Anyway, here's my question: >>> I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of >>> them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will >>> then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means that >>> I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given >>> time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few >>> directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this >>> disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks are >>> 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) >>> OK, so I was thinking of >>> large value for /CLUSTER >> OK! >>> large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 >> OK >> >>> small value for /HEADERS >> OK >>> medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES >> Try SMALL! You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Master >> File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. >> >> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). The >> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have two >> or three of them. I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=10. > > Well, since the value for /MAXIMUM_FILES is such a hard limit, I > thought I'd play it safe in case I want to put some other (small) > files there. OTOH, as another poster pointed out, re-INITing the disk > is easy. > It's easy ONLY if you don't care about the stuff that is on the disk! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:50:01 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: <4901c47c$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> AEF wrote: > [...snip...] >> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). The >> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have two >> or three of them. I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=10. > > Well, since the value for /MAXIMUM_FILES is such a hard limit, I > thought I'd play it safe in case I want to put some other (small) > files there. OTOH, as another poster pointed out, re-INITing the disk > is easy. I don't have my File System Internals in front of me at the moment, so I *could* be wrong ;-) There is one bit per possible file header in the Index File so, there's no advantage to having /MAXIMUM_FILES set to less than 4096 (1 block of 512 bytes times 8 bits = 4096). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:19:11 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: <00A8194A.6BA61C15@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , Bob Gezelter writes: >On Oct 23, 7:10=A0pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <26e02b21-95a3-4ad2-89db-2709bb4a8...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.= >com>, Bob Gezelter writes: >> >> >> >> >On Oct 23, 4:51 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> >wrote: >> >> AEF wrote: >> >> > On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: >> >> >> On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: >> >> >> >>> I have a system >> >> >> > Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw >> >> > that the line above was the entire post! >> >> >> >> Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >> >> >> question. >> >> >> >> AEF >> >> >> > Uh, that should have been: >> >> >> > "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >> >> > question." >> >> >> > Anyway, here's my question: >> >> >> > I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of >> >> > them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will >> >> > then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means tha= >t >> >> > I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given >> >> > time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few >> >> > directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this >> >> > disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks a= >re >> >> > 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) >> >> >> > OK, so I was thinking of >> >> >> > large value for /CLUSTER >> >> >> OK! >> >> > large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 >> >> >> OK >> >> >> > small value for /HEADERS >> >> >> OK >> >> > medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES >> >> >> Try SMALL! =A0You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Mas= >ter >> >> File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. >> >> >> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). T= >he >> >> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have tw= >o >> >> or three of them. =A0I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=3D10. >> >> >> > What do y'all think? Is it even worth bothering with? >> >> >> > Thanks! >> >> >Richard, >> >> >With the cluster sizes proposed, the maximum files (and file headers) >> >might as well be one or two clusters each. Anything less just does not >> >use the space allocated. >> >> Exactly. =A0However, for a couple of files, is this going to be an enormo= >us >> storage saving? =A0I am not fond of stuffing a drive close to its capacit= >y >> in some cases as there's the potential of inadequate space for the task a= >t >> hand. =A0 >> >> Wipe out the File Systems Internals and look up the calculations if you'r= >e >> not familiar with them to use the space most wisely. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TME= >SIS(dot)COM >> >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional prote= >ction >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (= >NJSC) >> >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet article = >outside >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copy= >right >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > >Brian, > >WADR, you DID mean "whip out", correct? ["Wipe out" seems singularly >destructive, as the book is out of print and arguably collectable? -- >(smile)] Yes, whip not wipe. I shouldn't post late night. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:20:50 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: <00A8194A.A6A4937D@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >Bob Gezelter wrote: >> On Oct 23, 7:10 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> In article <26e02b21-95a3-4ad2-89db-2709bb4a8...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 23, 4:51 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>>> wrote: >>>>> AEF wrote: >>>>>> On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: >>>>>>> On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: >>>>>>>> I have a system >>>>>> Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw >>>>>> that the line above was the entire post! >>>>>>> Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>>>>>> question. >>>>>>> AEF >>>>>> Uh, that should have been: >>>>>> "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>>>>> question." >>>>>> Anyway, here's my question: >>>>>> I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of >>>>>> them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will >>>>>> then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means that >>>>>> I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given >>>>>> time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few >>>>>> directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this >>>>>> disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks are >>>>>> 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) >>>>>> OK, so I was thinking of >>>>>> large value for /CLUSTER >>>>> OK! >>>>>> large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 >>>>> OK >>>>>> small value for /HEADERS >>>>> OK >>>>>> medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES >>>>> Try SMALL! You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Master >>>>> File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. >>>>> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). The >>>>> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have two >>>>> or three of them. I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=10. >>>>>> What do y'all think? Is it even worth bothering with? >>>>>> Thanks! >>>> Richard, >>>> With the cluster sizes proposed, the maximum files (and file headers) >>>> might as well be one or two clusters each. Anything less just does not >>>> use the space allocated. >>> Exactly. However, for a couple of files, is this going to be an enormous >>> storage saving? I am not fond of stuffing a drive close to its capacity >>> in some cases as there's the potential of inadequate space for the task at >>> hand. >>> >>> Wipe out the File Systems Internals and look up the calculations if you're >>> not familiar with them to use the space most wisely. >>> >>> -- >>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>> >>> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection >>> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) >>> >>> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside >>> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright >>> notice, disclaimer and quotations. >> >> Brian, >> >> WADR, you DID mean "whip out", correct? ["Wipe out" seems singularly >> destructive, as the book is out of print and arguably collectable? -- >> (smile)] >> > >There are a number of us who can't tipe gud. I'm one of them but I can speak _well_! :) -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:27:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: <_PidnY46PPV7RpzUnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@comcast.com> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> Bob Gezelter wrote: >>> On Oct 23, 7:10 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> In article <26e02b21-95a3-4ad2-89db-2709bb4a8...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter writes: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 23, 4:51 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> AEF wrote: >>>>>>> On Oct 23, 4:14 pm, AEF wrote: >>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, AEF wrote: >>>>>>>>> I have a system >>>>>>> Boy, I wish I could have seen the looks on your faces when you saw >>>>>>> that the line above was the entire post! >>>>>>>> Uh, I fat fingered an premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>> AEF >>>>>>> Uh, that should have been: >>>>>>> "Uh, I fat-fingered a premature Send. Stay tuned for the full >>>>>>> question." >>>>>>> Anyway, here's my question: >>>>>>> I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of >>>>>>> them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will >>>>>>> then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means that >>>>>>> I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given >>>>>>> time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few >>>>>>> directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this >>>>>>> disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks are >>>>>>> 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) >>>>>>> OK, so I was thinking of >>>>>>> large value for /CLUSTER >>>>>> OK! >>>>>>> large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 >>>>>> OK >>>>>>> small value for /HEADERS >>>>>> OK >>>>>>> medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES >>>>>> Try SMALL! You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Master >>>>>> File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. >>>>>> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). The >>>>>> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have two >>>>>> or three of them. I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=10. >>>>>>> What do y'all think? Is it even worth bothering with? >>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Richard, >>>>> With the cluster sizes proposed, the maximum files (and file headers) >>>>> might as well be one or two clusters each. Anything less just does not >>>>> use the space allocated. >>>> Exactly. However, for a couple of files, is this going to be an enormous >>>> storage saving? I am not fond of stuffing a drive close to its capacity >>>> in some cases as there's the potential of inadequate space for the task at >>>> hand. >>>> >>>> Wipe out the File Systems Internals and look up the calculations if you're >>>> not familiar with them to use the space most wisely. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>>> >>>> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection >>>> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) >>>> >>>> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside >>>> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright >>>> notice, disclaimer and quotations. >>> Brian, >>> >>> WADR, you DID mean "whip out", correct? ["Wipe out" seems singularly >>> destructive, as the book is out of print and arguably collectable? -- >>> (smile)] >>> >> There are a number of us who can't tipe gud. > > I'm one of them but I can speak _well_! :) > It's "point and grunt" for me! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:46:56 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: INIT params for disk to build on-disk save sets Message-ID: AEF writes: >> > I have a system with four RZ28 disks installed. I want to use one of >> > them as a target for on-disk backups of the other disks which will >> > then be FTPed to another, possibly remote, system. So this means that >> > I will primarily have just one large file on this disk at any given >> > time, and maybe a few small files for whatever reason (and a few >> > directories, of course). What params should I use to INITIALIZE this >> > disk? (For those of you who are too young to remember, these disks are >> > 2 GB in size. Or more accurately: 4110480 TOTAL BLOCKS.) >> >> > OK, so I was thinking of >> >> > large value for /CLUSTER >> >> OK! >> > large value for /EXTEND, maybe 10000 >> >> OK >> >> > small value for /HEADERS >> >> OK >> > medium value for /MAXIMUM_FILES >> >> Try SMALL! =A0You are proposing to put THREE files on this disk; a Master >> File Directory, INDEXF.SYS and a BACKUP saveset. >> >> The smallest INDEXF.SYS you could have would be one block (I think). The >> BACKUP saveset could be less than a GB and you might manage to have two >> or three of them. =A0I'd try something like /MAXIMUM_FILES=3D10. >Well, since the value for /MAXIMUM_FILES is such a hard limit, I >thought I'd play it safe in case I want to put some other (small) >files there. OTOH, as another poster pointed out, re-INITing the disk >is easy. This whole thread reminds me of a time long ago, where I tried to come up with INIT parameters that would squeeze every possible block out of RX33 and other small disks, to maximize the space for one or a small number of user files by minimizing that used by INDEXF.SYS and friends. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:45:02 -0700 (PDT) From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Request for information on TurbeCache, TurboWare, or SpeedCache Message-ID: <920795ce-b25f-4220-87b3-00ca1be103fd@m74g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Looking for information from people who have used TurboCache, TurboWare, or SpeedCache products. If you have any media or manuals, that would be a help, too. If you have anything, please give me a call. Thanks! Also, anyone ever used Marketrieve on a VAX or Alpha? -- David L. Cathey, Montagar Software, Inc. P.O.Box 260772, Plano, TX 75026-0772 Phone: 972-423-5224 E-Mail: davidc a-with-circle-thing montagar decimal-point com ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 07:39:15 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <+o3pndMYLgSL@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a > double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric > motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I > could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an > RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . Down the hall on someone's door is a picture of a 1MB IBM drive being offloaded from a PanAm cargo plane by a forklift. It's roughly the size of an 11/750. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:43:41 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a >> double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric >> motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I >> could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an >> RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . > > Down the hall on someone's door is a picture of a 1MB IBM drive being > offloaded from a PanAm cargo plane by a forklift. > > It's roughly the size of an 11/750. > The one I saw was more like the size of an 11/780; five to six feet high and six or seven feet wide! ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 13:19:12 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <6me0agFfv20iU2@mid.individual.net> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <4900b9c3$0$1556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>> Actually, I expect it is an old piece of clipart that MS had floating >>>> around when they needed a picture of a computer. I doubt the person >>>> who put it ont he web page even had a clue what it was actually a picture >>>> of. >>> Correct. Microsoft weenies weren't born when RA drives were still being >>> produced. >>> >>> But it is still interesting to see those weenies not have a clue on what >>> a modern data centre looks like. They probably think those RA drives are >>> some sort of blade enclosure :-) :-) >> >> I cut my hands many times pulling RAs out on their rails, so I wouldn't >> be so sure they're not blade enclosures. ;) >> >> >>> If only they knew that those were likely 400 or 600 meg drives, drawing >>> 15 amps of power with 1/3 HP motor that was outside the HDA :-) :-) :-) >> >> ...and just what's wrong with belt-driven mass storage? :P >> > > ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a > double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric > motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I > could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an > RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . My first experience with a head-crash was an IBM disk on a 4331 at Ft. Ben in Indianapolis. I found it interesting that the first tool brought in by the CE was a large shop vac that he used to collect all that was left of the disks guts. Amazing how much damage those 3HP motors can do. We actually heard it from the terminal lab down the hall. The noise accompanied the system crash and a lot of moaning about lost work. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 13:20:06 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <6me0c6Ffv20iU3@mid.individual.net> In article <+o3pndMYLgSL@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a >> double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric >> motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I >> could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an >> RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . > > Down the hall on someone's door is a picture of a 1MB IBM drive being > offloaded from a PanAm cargo plane by a forklift. > > It's roughly the size of an 11/750. Yes, but was it a disk drive or a drum drive? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:13:51 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> In article <4900b9c3$0$1556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>>> Actually, I expect it is an old piece of clipart that MS had floating >>>>> around when they needed a picture of a computer. I doubt the person >>>>> who put it ont he web page even had a clue what it was actually a picture >>>>> of. >>>> Correct. Microsoft weenies weren't born when RA drives were still being >>>> produced. >>>> >>>> But it is still interesting to see those weenies not have a clue on what >>>> a modern data centre looks like. They probably think those RA drives are >>>> some sort of blade enclosure :-) :-) >>> I cut my hands many times pulling RAs out on their rails, so I wouldn't >>> be so sure they're not blade enclosures. ;) >>> >>> >>>> If only they knew that those were likely 400 or 600 meg drives, drawing >>>> 15 amps of power with 1/3 HP motor that was outside the HDA :-) :-) :-) >>> ...and just what's wrong with belt-driven mass storage? :P >>> >> ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a >> double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric >> motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I >> could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an >> RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . > > My first experience with a head-crash was an IBM disk on a 4331 at > Ft. Ben in Indianapolis. I found it interesting that the first tool > brought in by the CE was a large shop vac that he used to collect all > that was left of the disks guts. Amazing how much damage those 3HP > motors can do. We actually heard it from the terminal lab down the > hall. The noise accompanied the system crash and a lot of moaning about > lost work. :-) > > bill > I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those to young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top loading disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes! The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched screeching. . . . There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with a head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . . . ISTR that the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk packs destroyed! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:24:51 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <4901dab5$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > [...snip...] > I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those > to young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top > loading disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes! > > The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched > screeching. . . . Oh, and don't forget the *smell* those head-crashes used to make ! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:28:42 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <00A8194B.C011BFCF@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <6me0agFfv20iU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> In article <4900b9c3$0$1556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>>> Actually, I expect it is an old piece of clipart that MS had floating >>>>> around when they needed a picture of a computer. I doubt the person >>>>> who put it ont he web page even had a clue what it was actually a picture >>>>> of. >>>> Correct. Microsoft weenies weren't born when RA drives were still being >>>> produced. >>>> >>>> But it is still interesting to see those weenies not have a clue on what >>>> a modern data centre looks like. They probably think those RA drives are >>>> some sort of blade enclosure :-) :-) >>> >>> I cut my hands many times pulling RAs out on their rails, so I wouldn't >>> be so sure they're not blade enclosures. ;) >>> >>> >>>> If only they knew that those were likely 400 or 600 meg drives, drawing >>>> 15 amps of power with 1/3 HP motor that was outside the HDA :-) :-) :-) >>> >>> ...and just what's wrong with belt-driven mass storage? :P >>> >> >> ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a >> double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric >> motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I >> could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an >> RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . > >My first experience with a head-crash was an IBM disk on a 4331 at >Ft. Ben in Indianapolis. I found it interesting that the first tool >brought in by the CE was a large shop vac that he used to collect all >that was left of the disks guts. Amazing how much damage those 3HP >motors can do. We actually heard it from the terminal lab down the >hall. The noise accompanied the system crash and a lot of moaning about >lost work. :-) Messy! I remember a head crash on an RM-05 while I was in the computer room. It really set the thing off balance. It was "dancing" about the floor making noises like a washing machine does when a load is off-bal- ance. That pack was complete history as was the RM-05. It wasn't worth fixing and I really don't even know why it was maintained on contract at that time as we had newer quality technology like RA-81/82s! :rolleyes: -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 14:53:00 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <6me5qcFgf424U1@mid.individual.net> In article <00A8194B.C011BFCF@sendspamhere.org>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > In article <6me0agFfv20iU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>In article , >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> In article <4900b9c3$0$1556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Actually, I expect it is an old piece of clipart that MS had floating >>>>>> around when they needed a picture of a computer. I doubt the person >>>>>> who put it ont he web page even had a clue what it was actually a picture >>>>>> of. >>>>> Correct. Microsoft weenies weren't born when RA drives were still being >>>>> produced. >>>>> >>>>> But it is still interesting to see those weenies not have a clue on what >>>>> a modern data centre looks like. They probably think those RA drives are >>>>> some sort of blade enclosure :-) :-) >>>> >>>> I cut my hands many times pulling RAs out on their rails, so I wouldn't >>>> be so sure they're not blade enclosures. ;) >>>> >>>> >>>>> If only they knew that those were likely 400 or 600 meg drives, drawing >>>>> 15 amps of power with 1/3 HP motor that was outside the HDA :-) :-) :-) >>>> >>>> ...and just what's wrong with belt-driven mass storage? :P >>>> >>> >>> ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a >>> double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric >>> motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I >>> could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an >>> RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . >> >>My first experience with a head-crash was an IBM disk on a 4331 at >>Ft. Ben in Indianapolis. I found it interesting that the first tool >>brought in by the CE was a large shop vac that he used to collect all >>that was left of the disks guts. Amazing how much damage those 3HP >>motors can do. We actually heard it from the terminal lab down the >>hall. The noise accompanied the system crash and a lot of moaning about >>lost work. :-) > > Messy! I remember a head crash on an RM-05 while I was in the computer > room. It really set the thing off balance. It was "dancing" about the > floor making noises like a washing machine does when a load is off-bal- > ance. That pack was complete history as was the RM-05. It wasn't worth > fixing and I really don't even know why it was maintained on contract at > that time as we had newer quality technology like RA-81/82s! :rolleyes: There are people still using them, apparently. When I got my last batch of RA disks I took them from a shop that had just reited them in favor of SCSI. That was on PDP-11's. U sed them on PDP-11's and VAXen until I was able to replace them with, you guessed it, SCSI. Someone came and took them off my hands and I assume most of them survived the trip and are still running today. They may be old, small and power hungry, but they were also very well built. (I still use a number of RL disks, even now!!) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:57:00 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <6me0agFfv20iU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article , >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> In article <4900b9c3$0$1556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Actually, I expect it is an old piece of clipart that MS had floating >>>>>> around when they needed a picture of a computer. I doubt the person >>>>>> who put it ont he web page even had a clue what it was actually a picture >>>>>> of. >>>>> Correct. Microsoft weenies weren't born when RA drives were still being >>>>> produced. >>>>> >>>>> But it is still interesting to see those weenies not have a clue on what >>>>> a modern data centre looks like. They probably think those RA drives are >>>>> some sort of blade enclosure :-) :-) >>>> I cut my hands many times pulling RAs out on their rails, so I wouldn't >>>> be so sure they're not blade enclosures. ;) >>>> >>>> >>>>> If only they knew that those were likely 400 or 600 meg drives, drawing >>>>> 15 amps of power with 1/3 HP motor that was outside the HDA :-) :-) :-) >>>> ...and just what's wrong with belt-driven mass storage? :P >>>> >>> ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a >>> double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric >>> motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I >>> could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an >>> RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . >> My first experience with a head-crash was an IBM disk on a 4331 at >> Ft. Ben in Indianapolis. I found it interesting that the first tool >> brought in by the CE was a large shop vac that he used to collect all >> that was left of the disks guts. Amazing how much damage those 3HP >> motors can do. We actually heard it from the terminal lab down the >> hall. The noise accompanied the system crash and a lot of moaning about >> lost work. :-) > > Messy! I remember a head crash on an RM-05 while I was in the computer > room. It really set the thing off balance. It was "dancing" about the > floor making noises like a washing machine does when a load is off-bal- > ance. That pack was complete history as was the RM-05. It wasn't worth > fixing and I really don't even know why it was maintained on contract at > that time as we had newer quality technology like RA-81/82s! :rolleyes: > Sometimes the PTB just keep marching in the footsteps of those ahead of them. . . . I've audited more than one service contract renewal that listed equipment we no longer had, or had NEVER had. My predecessors had obviously not been "minding the store"! If you don't know what you have and where it is, you can REALLY get ripped off!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:02:46 GMT From: "Tim Wilkinson" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: > > I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those to > young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top loading > disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes! > > The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched > screeching. . . . > > There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with a > head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . . . ISTR that > the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk packs > destroyed! One of my operators managed to go through 5 cdc 400mb drives (Long time ago so I might not be quite accurate with the make/size, but size of a washing machine), connected to a pair of Computervision Cadds 4 systems. When he tried to install/format a new disc pack When I conducted the inquest, you could see the lowest platter on the first pack was bent by about 1/2". As if the pack had been dropped. It appeared he put it in the first system and crashed it, his first crash and had not realised, put it in the second drive and crashed that. Decided it must be the system at fault and moved the damaged pack to the second system and crash. So having decided it must be the pack. He then moved the two packs he had installed into the first systems crashed drives into the second systems remaining last two drives. I then get a phone call at home to tell me he was having problems. err yes you have a problem. To be honest, he was installing 2 brand new packs. It had not occurred to anyone when we wrote his instructions to visually check a pack for damage. We attempted to recover the costs from the pack supplier who argued the damage was as a result of installing the pack in a crashed drive etc. total of 5 drives and about 9 disc packs after he had installed original packs/backups and new in the crashed drives My company was not happy that we had about 30 cad operators idle for a few days whilst the drives were rebuilt. Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we had a problem reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided the problem was a result of an alignment/speed problem and reset the heads/motor etc. We then discovered that we were now unable to read archives tapes of our cad parts and the tech was unable to undo his realignment. Talking of alignment, when was the last time anyone used a floppy alignment disc/scope? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:05:47 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <00A81950.EE3EFA8F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <6me5qcFgf424U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article <00A8194B.C011BFCF@sendspamhere.org>, > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> In article <6me0agFfv20iU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>In article , >>> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>>> In article <4900b9c3$0$1556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, I expect it is an old piece of clipart that MS had floating >>>>>>> around when they needed a picture of a computer. I doubt the person >>>>>>> who put it ont he web page even had a clue what it was actually a picture >>>>>>> of. >>>>>> Correct. Microsoft weenies weren't born when RA drives were still being >>>>>> produced. >>>>>> >>>>>> But it is still interesting to see those weenies not have a clue on what >>>>>> a modern data centre looks like. They probably think those RA drives are >>>>>> some sort of blade enclosure :-) :-) >>>>> >>>>> I cut my hands many times pulling RAs out on their rails, so I wouldn't >>>>> be so sure they're not blade enclosures. ;) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> If only they knew that those were likely 400 or 600 meg drives, drawing >>>>>> 15 amps of power with 1/3 HP motor that was outside the HDA :-) :-) :-) >>>>> >>>>> ...and just what's wrong with belt-driven mass storage? :P >>>>> >>>> >>>> ISTR seeing some IBM hardware in a McGraw-Hill data center. There was a >>>> double width cabinet, dimensions 6'x6'x3' which contained a 3HP electric >>>> motor and a belt driven HDA whose storage was measured in megabytes. I >>>> could and did, fit more storage in my jacket pocket in the form of an >>>> RZ26/28/29! To be fair, I think they were scrapping it out. . . . >>> >>>My first experience with a head-crash was an IBM disk on a 4331 at >>>Ft. Ben in Indianapolis. I found it interesting that the first tool >>>brought in by the CE was a large shop vac that he used to collect all >>>that was left of the disks guts. Amazing how much damage those 3HP >>>motors can do. We actually heard it from the terminal lab down the >>>hall. The noise accompanied the system crash and a lot of moaning about >>>lost work. :-) >> >> Messy! I remember a head crash on an RM-05 while I was in the computer >> room. It really set the thing off balance. It was "dancing" about the >> floor making noises like a washing machine does when a load is off-bal- >> ance. That pack was complete history as was the RM-05. It wasn't worth >> fixing and I really don't even know why it was maintained on contract at >> that time as we had newer quality technology like RA-81/82s! :rolleyes: > >There are people still using them, apparently. When I got my last batch >of RA disks I took them from a shop that had just reited them in favor >of SCSI. That was on PDP-11's. U sed them on PDP-11's and VAXen until >I was able to replace them with, you guessed it, SCSI. Someone came and >took them off my hands and I assume most of them survived the trip and >are still running today. They may be old, small and power hungry, but >they were also very well built. (I still use a number of RL disks, even >now!!) The RAs that failed the most were the ones on the PDP in the clean room of the ASIC facility. I hated donning the polyester "zoot" suit and pas- sing through the "fly paper" air lock to have to replace them. They've left a lasting impression on me because of that ritual. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 15:06:13 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <6me6j4FftuscU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Tim Wilkinson" writes: >> >> I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those to >> young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top loading >> disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes! >> >> The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched >> screeching. . . . >> >> There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with a >> head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . . . ISTR that >> the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk packs >> destroyed! > > One of my operators managed to go through 5 cdc 400mb drives (Long time ago > so I might not be quite accurate with the make/size, but size of a washing > machine), connected to a pair of Computervision Cadds 4 systems. When he > tried to install/format a new disc pack > > When I conducted the inquest, you could see the lowest platter on the first > pack was bent by about 1/2". As if the pack had been dropped. It appeared he > put it in the first system and crashed it, his first crash and had not > realised, put it in the second drive and crashed that. Decided it must be > the system at fault and moved the damaged pack to the second system and > crash. > > So having decided it must be the pack. He then moved the two packs he had > installed into the first systems crashed drives into the second systems > remaining last two drives. I then get a phone call at home to tell me he > was having problems. err yes you have a problem. > > To be honest, he was installing 2 brand new packs. It had not occurred to > anyone when we wrote his instructions to visually check a pack for damage. > We attempted to recover the costs from the pack supplier who argued the > damage was as a result of installing the pack in a crashed drive etc. total > of 5 drives and about 9 disc packs after he had installed original > packs/backups and new in the crashed drives > > My company was not happy that we had about 30 cad operators idle for a few > days whilst the drives were rebuilt. > > > Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we > had a problem reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided the > problem was a result of an alignment/speed problem and reset the heads/motor > etc. We then discovered that we were now unable to read archives tapes of > our cad parts and the tech was unable to undo his realignment. > > Talking of alignment, when was the last time anyone used a floppy alignment > disc/scope? I don't remember the last time used one, but I do still have them. For 8" disk drives. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:14:08 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 005372B6852574EC_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" "Tim Wilkinson" wrote on 10/24/2008 11:02:46 AM: > > > > I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those to > > young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top loading > > disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes! > > > > The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched > > screeching. . . . > > > > There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with a > > head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . . . ISTR that > > the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk packs > > destroyed! > > One of my operators managed to go through 5 cdc 400mb drives (Long time ago > so I might not be quite accurate with the make/size, but size of a washing > machine), connected to a pair of Computervision Cadds 4 systems. When he > tried to install/format a new disc pack > > When I conducted the inquest, you could see the lowest platter on the first > pack was bent by about 1/2". As if the pack had been dropped. It appeared he > put it in the first system and crashed it, his first crash and had not > realised, put it in the second drive and crashed that. Decided it must be > the system at fault and moved the damaged pack to the second system and > crash. > > So having decided it must be the pack. He then moved the two packs he had > installed into the first systems crashed drives into the second systems > remaining last two drives. I then get a phone call at home to tell me he > was having problems. err yes you have a problem. > > To be honest, he was installing 2 brand new packs. It had not occurred to > anyone when we wrote his instructions to visually check a pack for damage. > We attempted to recover the costs from the pack supplier who argued the > damage was as a result of installing the pack in a crashed drive etc. total > of 5 drives and about 9 disc packs after he had installed original > packs/backups and new in the crashed drives > > My company was not happy that we had about 30 cad operators idle for a few > days whilst the drives were rebuilt. I remember one fateful, fatal evening when two DEC (remember them) field service engineers were doing preventative maintenance on the RM05's and placed the alignment pack on the top of one while they worked on another. In due course, the "washing-machine effect" caused the alignment pack to topple off onto the floor, trashing a roughly $20K investment. One of them had to drive 30-odd miles away to get a backup from another office. Talk about embarrassing. > > > Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we > had a problem reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided the > problem was a result of an alignment/speed problem and reset the heads/motor > etc. We then discovered that we were now unable to read archives tapes of > our cad parts and the tech was unable to undo his realignment. > > Talking of alignment, when was the last time anyone used a floppy alignment > disc/scope? > > --=_alternative 005372B6852574EC_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
"Tim Wilkinson" <tjw@(remove).twsoft.co.uk> wrote on 10/24/2008 11:02:46 AM:

> >
> > I'll never forget my first head-crash!  It was an IBM 2311.  For those to
> > young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top loading
> > disk pack of 6-8 platters.   I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes!
> >
> > The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched
> > screeching. . . .
> >
> > There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with a
> > head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . .  ISTR that
> > the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk packs
> > destroyed!
>
> One of my operators managed to go through 5 cdc 400mb drives (Long time ago
> so I might not be quite accurate with the make/size, but size of a washing
> machine), connected to a pair of  Computervision Cadds 4 systems. When he
> tried to install/format a new disc pack
>
> When I conducted the inquest, you could see the lowest platter on the first
> pack was bent by about 1/2". As if the pack had been dropped. It appeared he
> put it in the first system and crashed it, his first crash and had not
> realised, put it in the second drive and crashed that. Decided it must be
> the system at fault and moved the damaged pack to the second system and
> crash.
>
> So having decided it must be the pack. He then moved the two packs he had
> installed into the first systems crashed drives into the second systems
> remaining last two drives.  I then get a phone call at home to tell me he
> was having problems. err yes you have a problem.
>
> To be honest, he was installing 2 brand new packs. It had not occurred to
> anyone when we wrote his instructions to visually check a pack for damage.
> We attempted to recover the costs from the pack supplier who argued the
> damage was as a result of installing the pack in a crashed drive etc.  total
> of 5 drives and about 9 disc packs after he had installed original
> packs/backups and new in the crashed drives
>
> My company was not happy that we had about 30 cad operators idle for a few
> days whilst the drives were rebuilt.


I remember one fateful, fatal evening when two DEC (remember them) field
service engineers were doing preventative maintenance on the RM05's and
placed the alignment pack on the top of one while they worked on another.
In due course, the "washing-machine effect" caused the alignment pack to
topple off onto the floor, trashing a roughly $20K investment.  One of them
had to drive 30-odd miles away to get a backup from another office.
Talk about embarrassing.

>
>
> Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we
> had a problem reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided the
> problem was a result of an alignment/speed problem and reset the heads/motor
> etc. We then discovered that we were now unable to read archives tapes of
> our cad parts  and the tech was unable to undo his realignment.
>
> Talking of alignment, when was the last time anyone used a floppy alignment
> disc/scope?
>
>
--=_alternative 005372B6852574EC_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:17:27 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: "Tim Wilkinson" wrote in message news:qslMk.76951$E41.47625@text.news.virginmedia.com... > Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we had a problem > reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided the problem was a result of an > alignment/speed problem and reset the heads/motor etc. We then discovered that we were > now unable to read archives tapes of our cad parts and the tech was unable to undo his > realignment. I believe the Spartans invented this technique: by having drive shafts of slightly varying diameters, they were able to deliver securely IBM 7-track tapes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:18:39 GMT From: "Tim Wilkinson" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: "Tim Wilkinson" wrote in message news:qslMk.76951$E41.47625@text.news.virginmedia.com... > > >> I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those to >> young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top >> loading disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 >> megabytes! >> >> The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched >> screeching. . . . >> >> There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with a >> head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . . . ISTR >> that the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk >> packs destroyed! > > One of my operators managed to go through 5 cdc 400mb drives (Long time > ago so I might not be quite accurate with the make/size, but size of a > washing machine), connected to a pair of Computervision Cadds 4 systems. > When he tried to install/format a new disc pack > > When I conducted the inquest, you could see the lowest platter on the > first pack was bent by about 1/2". As if the pack had been dropped. It > appeared he put it in the first system and crashed it, his first crash and > had not realised, put it in the second drive and crashed that. Decided it > must be the system at fault and moved the damaged pack to the second > system and crash. > > So having decided it must be the pack. He then moved the two packs he had > installed into the first systems crashed drives into the second systems > remaining last two drives. I then get a phone call at home to tell me he > was having problems. err yes you have a problem. > > To be honest, he was installing 2 brand new packs. It had not occurred to > anyone when we wrote his instructions to visually check a pack for damage. > We attempted to recover the costs from the pack supplier who argued the > damage was as a result of installing the pack in a crashed drive etc. > total of 5 drives and about 9 disc packs after he had installed original > packs/backups and new in the crashed drives > > My company was not happy that we had about 30 cad operators idle for a few > days whilst the drives were rebuilt. > > > Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we > had a problem reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided > the problem was a result of an alignment/speed problem and reset the > heads/motor etc. We then discovered that we were now unable to read > archives tapes of our cad parts and the tech was unable to undo his > realignment. > > Talking of alignment, when was the last time anyone used a floppy > alignment disc/scope? > Still on discs, my first VAX was an 11/750 we were given by a sister company, but had to source new drives. My boss went for a System Industries solution and Fujitsu "Super Eagles". Only problem was these new drives were very prone to failure, I think it was eventually attributed to bearings leaking. Well our computer room was on the second floor. No lifts and carrying 6 drives up 4 flights of stairs, then the replaced ones back down, multiply by at least 5 for the amount of swap outs we must have had and it is no wonder I suffer back problems 25 years later. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:48:19 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: Tim Wilkinson wrote: >> I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those to >> young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top loading >> disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes! >> >> The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched >> screeching. . . . >> >> There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with a >> head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . . . ISTR that >> the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk packs >> destroyed! > > One of my operators managed to go through 5 cdc 400mb drives (Long time ago > so I might not be quite accurate with the make/size, but size of a washing > machine), connected to a pair of Computervision Cadds 4 systems. When he > tried to install/format a new disc pack > > When I conducted the inquest, you could see the lowest platter on the first > pack was bent by about 1/2". As if the pack had been dropped. It appeared he > put it in the first system and crashed it, his first crash and had not > realised, put it in the second drive and crashed that. Decided it must be > the system at fault and moved the damaged pack to the second system and > crash. > > So having decided it must be the pack. He then moved the two packs he had > installed into the first systems crashed drives into the second systems > remaining last two drives. I then get a phone call at home to tell me he > was having problems. err yes you have a problem. > > To be honest, he was installing 2 brand new packs. It had not occurred to > anyone when we wrote his instructions to visually check a pack for damage. > We attempted to recover the costs from the pack supplier who argued the > damage was as a result of installing the pack in a crashed drive etc. total > of 5 drives and about 9 disc packs after he had installed original > packs/backups and new in the crashed drives > > My company was not happy that we had about 30 cad operators idle for a few > days whilst the drives were rebuilt. > > > Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we > had a problem reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided the > problem was a result of an alignment/speed problem and reset the heads/motor > etc. We then discovered that we were now unable to read archives tapes of > our cad parts and the tech was unable to undo his realignment. > > Talking of alignment, when was the last time anyone used a floppy alignment > disc/scope? > > I've NEVER used or even seen one! I don't use floppys that much for anything any longer. I still have a couple of 5" floppy drives somewhere. . . . Someday they'll be valuable antiques! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:12:36 -0400 From: "David Turner, islandco.com" Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <9smMk.54833$vX2.47090@bignews6.bellsouth.net> Imagine how the image would look with8 itanics in a rack with 3TB disk array It would look like a lame little server setup for a local elementary school The big vaxen and Ra series disks did and still do look very impressive I saw an array (SA482) on some Steven Segal movie the other day (with a limey Michael Caine as the bad guy) Come to think of it, why are the Bad Guys always English in American movies? I am English and I personally think I'm a really nice person.... nay, extremely nice... And if anyone wants to counter my belief then I'll find out where you live and... -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= wrote in message news:OFFA63360E.C18526C9-ONC22574EC.00539355-852574EC.005391EB@metso.com... "Tim Wilkinson" wrote on 10/24/2008 11:02:46 AM: > > > > I'll never forget my first head-crash! It was an IBM 2311. For those > > to > > young to have ever seen one, it was a "washing machine" with a top > > loading > > disk pack of 6-8 platters. I think it was a whole 7.5 megabytes! > > > > The console started logging errors and there was this high pitched > > screeching. . . . > > > > There was a story then current about an operator who tried to deal with > > a > > head crash by mounting the crashed pack on another drive. . . ISTR that > > the total carnage was something like seven drives and seven disk packs > > destroyed! > > One of my operators managed to go through 5 cdc 400mb drives (Long time > ago > so I might not be quite accurate with the make/size, but size of a washing > machine), connected to a pair of Computervision Cadds 4 systems. When he > tried to install/format a new disc pack > > When I conducted the inquest, you could see the lowest platter on the > first > pack was bent by about 1/2". As if the pack had been dropped. It appeared > he > put it in the first system and crashed it, his first crash and had not > realised, put it in the second drive and crashed that. Decided it must be > the system at fault and moved the damaged pack to the second system and > crash. > > So having decided it must be the pack. He then moved the two packs he had > installed into the first systems crashed drives into the second systems > remaining last two drives. I then get a phone call at home to tell me he > was having problems. err yes you have a problem. > > To be honest, he was installing 2 brand new packs. It had not occurred to > anyone when we wrote his instructions to visually check a pack for damage. > We attempted to recover the costs from the pack supplier who argued the > damage was as a result of installing the pack in a crashed drive etc. > total > of 5 drives and about 9 disc packs after he had installed original > packs/backups and new in the crashed drives > > My company was not happy that we had about 30 cad operators idle for a few > days whilst the drives were rebuilt. I remember one fateful, fatal evening when two DEC (remember them) field service engineers were doing preventative maintenance on the RM05's and placed the alignment pack on the top of one while they worked on another. In due course, the "washing-machine effect" caused the alignment pack to topple off onto the floor, trashing a roughly $20K investment. One of them had to drive 30-odd miles away to get a backup from another office. Talk about embarrassing. > > > Now for another lesson from them systems. Each had 1/2" tape drives and we > had a problem reading tapes from 1 to the other, the technician decided > the > problem was a result of an alignment/speed problem and reset the > heads/motor > etc. We then discovered that we were now unable to read archives tapes of > our cad parts and the tech was unable to undo his realignment. > > Talking of alignment, when was the last time anyone used a floppy > alignment > disc/scope? > > ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 11:43:38 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: In article <6me0c6Ffv20iU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Yes, but was it a disk drive or a drum drive? DASD. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 11:47:02 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: In article <00A8194B.C011BFCF@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > Messy! I remember a head crash on an RM-05 while I was in the computer > room. It really set the thing off balance. It was "dancing" about the > floor making noises like a washing machine does when a load is off-bal- > ance. That pack was complete history as was the RM-05. It wasn't worth > fixing and I really don't even know why it was maintained on contract at > that time as we had newer quality technology like RA-81/82s! :rolleyes: The fellows who maintained our 11/780s and RP06s on a former job had come from a site with someone else's technology. They told stories of connector leaks on hydraulically actuated disk head arms. Very high pressure. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 11:48:25 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: In article <6me5qcFgf424U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > There are people still using them, apparently. Used RA90s make very good replacements for used RA60 and RA80 series. Cheap, reliable, and plug compatable. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 16:53:20 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS SIG discovers what Billy really relies on Message-ID: <6mecs0FgbusvU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <6me0c6Ffv20iU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Yes, but was it a disk drive or a drum drive? > > DASD. Sorry, been out of the IBM world for way too long. But, I think that could refer to either as well. Wasn't that just Direct Access Storage Device? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: What does this mean? Message-ID: <58f8e06e-5568-414f-aac0-d8fc1d4a2310@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Oct 23, 4:28=A0pm, Fred Bach wrote: > David B Sneddon wrote: > > On Oct 16, 8:00 pm, tadamsmar wrote: > >> The VMS 7.3-2 command: > > >> HELP DEFINE /KEY PARA > > >> Provides this in the text: > > >> "You can also press Ctrl/V to enable keys F7 to F14. Note that Ctrl/V > >> will not enable the F6 key." > > >> What does this mean? > > >> Ctrl/V appears to do nothing. > > > example: (on my keyboard) > > pressing F8 does nothing > > $ define/key F8 help > > pressing F8 does nothing > > pressing ctrl/V THEN F8 does something > > > Dave > > =A0 Yes, I reproduced this exactly on my PC keyboard (X-windowed to a VMS= machine). > > =A0 But there must be a bigger picture. =A0What's behind it all? =A0 What= 's the idea? > > =A0 Thanks. > > =A0. fred bach . =A0music at triumf dot c a- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I think it has something to do with the fact that f6 thru f14 are used in line editing (enabled by SET TERM/LINE) and f6 is a special case since it causes a cancel when line editing is enabled ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 03:55:04 -0700 (PDT) From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? Message-ID: <285f5564-b8a6-4ecc-8839-4b699a5be527@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On 24 Oct, 06:18, "William Webb" wrote: > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Richard B. Gilbert > > > > > > wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote: > > >> I get the feeling we are in some Star Trek episode where the crew, one > >> by one, disapears without any sound/noise and it isn't until someone > >> does a head count or tries to contact a crew member that they notice h= e > >> is no longer aboard. > > >> Anyone else having similar feelings ? > > >> Or is it truly just a case of the formely regular posters to COV no > >> longer participating here ? > > > I might be among the missing soon! > > > Comcast has decided it does not want to provide access to newsgroups as= part > > of "High Speed Internet" service. =A0They want me to get it from some t= hird > > party for more money! > > > It DOES seem like a conspiracy! > > Only if you're paranoid. > > Subscribe to Info-VAX. > > That's what it's there for. > > WWWebb- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I remember doing that "in the old days" when I worked in Bracknell. The mail server admins always knew when they had a problem because the mail to me from info-vax stopped! ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2008 13:13:52 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? Message-ID: <6me00gFfv20iU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Rich Alderson writes: > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> In article <7YILk.51592$rD2.28765@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, "David Turner, >> islandco.com" writes: > >>> Software is free on Linux so .... > >> How dare you suggest hosting comp.os.vms on anything but VMS! 8-) > > An interesting notion, "hosting" a Usenet newsgroup. That would imply a > centralized database of postings, would it not? Net.news is of course quite > intentionally *not* centralized, to avoid > > 1. Single point of failure issues > b) Censorship of views differing from those of the owner(s) of the host Actually, I doubt either of those was consideredc whrn USENET News first came into being. :-) David does have a nice idea, however. It should be rather easy to find sites willing to feed him one or two groups taht he could then offer to a select group without putting too much strain on his pipe. Back when I was in the USENET News Admin biz I used to feed just the vmsnet groups to somebody in Eastern Europe. David, if you need expertise setting this up I would be glad to help. > > comp.os.vms <> info-vax ! And having run both News and Mailing-lists I can honestly say both have their advantages and dis-advantages. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:36:01 -0400 From: "David Turner, islandco.com" Subject: Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? Message-ID: I would need the expertise We have never done it and apart from downloading an NNTP server that is as far as we have gotten. Someone else here is pretty Linux Savvy. Opening up the NNTP port isn't an issue - We would only allow registered users to log in though. Free, as we pay for the T1 anyhow for Web and mailserver hosting. Can someone point us in the right direction for starters? -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:6me00gFfv20iU1@mid.individual.net... > In article , > Rich Alderson writes: >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >>> In article <7YILk.51592$rD2.28765@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, "David >>> Turner, >>> islandco.com" writes: >> >>>> Software is free on Linux so .... >> >>> How dare you suggest hosting comp.os.vms on anything but VMS! 8-) >> >> An interesting notion, "hosting" a Usenet newsgroup. That would imply a >> centralized database of postings, would it not? Net.news is of course >> quite >> intentionally *not* centralized, to avoid >> >> 1. Single point of failure issues >> b) Censorship of views differing from those of the owner(s) of the host > > Actually, I doubt either of those was consideredc whrn USENET News first > came into being. :-) > > David does have a nice idea, however. It should be rather easy to > find sites willing to feed him one or two groups taht he could then > offer to a select group without putting too much strain on his pipe. > Back when I was in the USENET News Admin biz I used to feed just the > vmsnet groups to somebody in Eastern Europe. > > David, if you need expertise setting this up I would be glad to help. > >> >> comp.os.vms <> info-vax ! > > And having run both News and Mailing-lists I can honestly say both have > their advantages and dis-advantages. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.575 ************************