INFO-VAX Tue, 04 Nov 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 596 Contents: Re: ActiveMQ working but want out of java... Re: Another DST issue Re: Bell Labs closes Re: Most impressive VAX installations RE: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations RE: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations RE: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: VAX-11/785 microdiagnostics help requested Re: VAX-11/785 microdiagnostics help requested ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:48:40 -0800 (PST) From: thierry.uso@wanadoo.fr Subject: Re: ActiveMQ working but want out of java... Message-ID: <153c9172-fb15-4c45-b24c-37b17b4e25f1@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Nov 3, 3:28 pm, christ...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi > > Got ActiveMQ 5.1.0 running on OpenVMS 8.3 > > Can test it with a Windows client and a C# program sending to the VMS > machine, (seeing result in the web browser 8161/admin windows) so > ActiveMQ is up and running... > > but an example on doing the same from C/Fortran (not java) was hard to > find, havent found it anyway... > > SO: > > I havent found any good simple examples on how to send/reveice a > simple telegram from OpenVMS/C with ActiveMQ. > > //CY There are two client API (CMS for C++ and openwire-C-client for C) : http://activemq.apache.org/cms.html http://activemq.apache.org/openwire-c-client.html I have not tested the examples. Thierry Uso. ------------------------------ Date: 03 Nov 2008 20:32:02 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Another DST issue Message-ID: Neil Rieck writes: > This is great advice if it can be implemented on your VMS system. And > if you think about it, it makes no senses for computers to be changing > their internal clocks twice a year. In an ideal world all the > computers whould be synchronized to a common world clock then humans > would see (if desired) time displayed based upon local user rules. One > user might want to see EASTERN while another might want to see > PACIFIC. Files created by each user would be stamped with the machine > time but each user would see the file time-stamps in the timezone of > their choice. > BTW, this is how UNIX systems do it now. The machine timezone is > defined in /etc/default/init (a.k.a. /etc/TIMEZONE) while the user > timezone is defined by environment variable TZ. This is also how TENEX (of an age with UNIX) and its DEC descendant TOPS-20 do it, although unlike UNIX, which chose 1 January 1970 as the beginning of time, they chose a timebase prior to any electronic filesystem, midnight GMT on November 17, 1858 (the choice of which is based on Julian days and irrelevant to this argument). Modern Unices have retrofitted to 1 January 1900, but not in time to save a lot of grief. -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:53:16 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes Message-ID: <490FB91C.3F961896@spam.comcast.net> johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > On Nov 2, 2:48 am, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > [snip] > > I'm still hearing the victim mentality coming through there. > > > > When you place control of your financial future in someone else's hands, > > such as an employer, you accept the risk that the job may "disappear". > > > > As Kerry pointed out, precious few factors are actually within the > > individual's control. > > > > "I made a bad choice - oh, poor me" doesn't help us to recover or move > > on. > > > > It may be prudent, at this juncture, to consider "The Serenity Prayer": > > Lord, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage > > to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. > > > > D.J.D. > > OT but... > > what about when "industry professionals" take your money compulsorily > and make bad choices on your behalf? > > In the UK, many people have pension schemes of one kind or another, > [snip] Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record: > > I'm still hearing the victim mentality coming through there. While such pension plans may be widespread or nearly ubiquitous - to the point of being inescapable, it is still YOUR choice to accept employment under such conditions. Unless one has a skill that can provide a livelihood, it is a choice nearly everyone makes who is in a position to work for living. Nevertheless, it is STILL A CHOICE! Again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record: > > "I made a bad choice - oh, poor me" doesn't help us to recover or move > > on. Some choices have no acceptable alternative. Hence, one needs "the serenity to accept what (one) cannot change". Consider Guy Peleg and Hoff. They chose to go off on their own and form thier own business. Not everyone has it within them to do that, but hose who even think they might - and find the alternatives difficult to "swallow" - might be better off in the long run to take the risk and quite possibly achieve a better end. Motivation? How's this: Reach for your fortune or let someone else hand it to you one paycheck at a time. Oh, and by the way: as a small business person, you'll find a whole different world of challenges. There is no escape! Our life is the result of the choices we make. We can abandon our responsibility to ourselves and let others control EVERY aspect of our lives, or we can take control of that we which can control ("the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference"). D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 19:40:59 GMT From: "Bob Eager" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-q2Egmhrs6DRg@rikki.tavi.co.uk> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 18:32:08 UTC, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Bob Eager wrote: > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:06:49 UTC, DaveG > > wrote: > > > >> I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads > >> did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in > >> its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) > > > > We had a fixed head disk in about 1973, on a PDP-11/20. As I recall, we > > had to avoid switching it off too often as it wore out the heads (or so > > we were told). Thought it was a DF32 but it was larger - was rolled out > > onto TWO DECtapes! > > > > There was a shop on RT 130 just south of Hightstown, NJ where I saw a > disk platter that must have been three to four FEET in diameter! > Ancient technology of course. Oh, I've seen a few of those over the years...last one was in someone's office at Edinburgh University. -- Bob Eager Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:18:48 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED8424E66@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: DaveG [mailto:david.gudewicz@abbott.com] > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 10:07 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations > > On Nov 2, 11:21 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rd...@spamcop.net [mailto:rd...@spamcop.net] > > > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:31 PM > > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations > > > > > On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:31:54 UTC, JF Mezei > > > wrote: > > > > > > At the opposite scale of things... > > > > > > I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg > drive > > > to > > > > support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead > the > > > > MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. > > > > > > This was circa 1987. > > > > > Impressive, but look back and read what OS/8 was able to do! > > > > Ok, war story time ..:-) > > > > I remember carrying a tool bag with a scope and installing the first > > DF32 disk drive in our area - 32K words of memory. I remember us all > > joking about what a waste this was as who would ever use 32Kw of > memory? > > > > Course, at the time, many PDP8's had either a 4K or 8K memory system. > > > > Now back to the present... > > > > :-) > > > > Regards > > > > Kerry Main > > Senior Consultant > > HP Services Canada > > Voice: 613-254-8911 > > Fax: 613-591-4477 > > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.- Hide quoted > text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads > did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in > its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) Yeah, we had to clean the platter before installing - it was like a large, heavy record. That was back in the day when real computer types could toggle in the TU56 or RK05 boot program on the front panel toggle switches from memory. Re: old .. heck, I still tell my kids that I do not know what I want to be when I grow up .. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 16:24:32 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: DaveG [mailto:david.gudewicz@abbott.com] >> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 10:07 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations >> >> On Nov 2, 11:21 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: rd...@spamcop.net [mailto:rd...@spamcop.net] >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:31 PM >>>> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>> Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations >>>> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:31:54 UTC, JF Mezei >>>> wrote: >>>>> At the opposite scale of things... >>>>> I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg >> drive >>>> to >>>>> support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead >> the >>>>> MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. >>>>> This was circa 1987. >>>> Impressive, but look back and read what OS/8 was able to do! >>> Ok, war story time ..:-) >>> >>> I remember carrying a tool bag with a scope and installing the first >>> DF32 disk drive in our area - 32K words of memory. I remember us all >>> joking about what a waste this was as who would ever use 32Kw of >> memory? >>> Course, at the time, many PDP8's had either a 4K or 8K memory system. >>> >>> Now back to the present... >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Kerry Main >>> Senior Consultant >>> HP Services Canada >>> Voice: 613-254-8911 >>> Fax: 613-591-4477 >>> kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom >>> (remove the DOT's and AT) >>> >>> OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.- Hide quoted >> text - >>> - Show quoted text - >> I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads >> did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in >> its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) > > Yeah, we had to clean the platter before installing - it was like a large, > heavy record. > > That was back in the day when real computer types could toggle in the TU56 > or RK05 boot program on the front panel toggle switches from memory. > > Re: old .. heck, I still tell my kids that I do not know what I want to be > when I grow up .. > > :-) > Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is not! ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 14:50:55 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Somehow I don't think that the PDP-8 was comparable, in any way, to the > IBM System/360! They were both digital computers and there the > resemblance ended. There were some very small, very low capability, models in the 360 series. Systems like the 360/20 were mostly used to do things like duplicate card decks. Most folks remember systems like the 360/75, a multi-user mainframe about the size of a small house and priced a few orders of magnitude higher. The 360/20 I saw would use just a little more floor space than a basic 11/780 with one expansion cabinet. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 22:01:41 GMT From: "Bob Eager" Subject: RE: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-JEeYr9TTzJUm@rikki.tavi.co.uk> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:18:48 UTC, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > That was back in the day when real computer types could toggle in the TU56 > or RK05 boot program on the front panel toggle switches from memory. Yeah, but the RK05 boot program was really easy...! A colleague knew the paper tape bootstrap off by heart and used it every morning.. -- Bob Eager Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 15:02:48 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article <00010d8a$0$26230$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> There were calculations we did on our almighty MV II that were >> trivial to code up because the Fortran compiler fully supported >> H-float. > > Out of curiosity, what sort of calculations could H-float do that IEEE > floating point can't do ? H-float is a VAX specific format with about the same number of bits, but slightly different definition, as IEEE X-float. H-float has twice as many bits as VAX D-float or G-float. X-float has twice as many bits as IEEE T-float. In C speak, float would be done in VAX F-float or IEEE S-float, or similar. double would be done in VAX D- or G-float, or IEEE T-float. I don't know of any C compiler that supports VAX H-float or IEEE X-float. In Fortran, REAL or REAL*4 would be F-float or S-float. DOUBLE PRECISION or REAL*8 would be D-, G-, or T-float. REAL*16 would be H- or X-float. I don't know of any Fortran compiler that supports X-float. The extra precision of H-float was usefull in an algorithm that converted D-float floating point values to 48 bit fixed point. Just keeping everything in D-float would drop low bits during the algorithm, leading to an inaccurate result. We were given the algorithm, coded for Fortran REAL*8 on another system by someone who didn't realise its limitations. Changing to REAL*16 was a trivial edit to solve the problem. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 15:04:08 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article <00010f78$0$26272$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > In the 1980s, the "PC" and Sun grew in the exact same way: they came in, > offered lower prices, and DEC dismissed them as not serious enough for > real business and DEC continued to charge a premium for its product. > DEC's market shrunk to a handful of customers who still had to buy the > overpriced DEC gear and software. In the 1980s DEC was trying to overtake IBM and never looked back at the new kids on the block. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 15:07:45 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > There was a shop on RT 130 just south of Hightstown, NJ where I saw a > disk platter that must have been three to four FEET in diameter! > Ancient technology of course. Just before we bought our first 11/780 running VMS 1.x, I spent time on a Xerox Sigma 7 with a 3 foot diameter vertically mounted disk. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:33:35 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <490f7c3b$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <00A82051.B459084E@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> BINGO! There still are sites that have not bothered to port their apps to >> Alpha or Itanium. If H-float is needed, I'd wager that a library could be >> developed to provide it and, on faster hardware, it may even best perform- >> ance on VAX. > > Did any Alpha ever actually implement X-float? It was in my early > Alpha architecture books, fully desribed, but documented as not > implemented. AFAIK not in HW. But VMS does emulate it. > Does Itanium do X-float? > > There were calculations we did on our almighty MV II that were > trivial to code up because the Fortran compiler fully supported > H-float. VMS Fortran still support REAL*16 ! Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:36:12 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <490f7cd6$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> There were calculations we did on our almighty MV II that were >> trivial to code up because the Fortran compiler fully supported >> H-float. > > Out of curiosity, what sort of calculations could H-float do that IEEE > floating point can't do ? None. Because IEEE has X-float with the same precision. But in some cases 128 bit floating point (H or X) can fix numerical problems in 64 bit float (D/G/T). Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 18:48:52 -0500 From: "Steven Underwood" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: "andy/christine" wrote in message news:490e6d14@news.mel.dft.com.au... > We had a VT220 on the fifteenth floor connected via 4 wire modem > as the secondary console to the VAX8800s PRO380. > It could do everything but power on/off. I assume you mean power off the Pro380 as I believe powering off the 8800 was done from the console (only worked on 1 8800 in my field service experience). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 04:19:08 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED8425115@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Underwood [mailto:nobody@spamcop.net] > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 6:49 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations > > "andy/christine" wrote in > message > news:490e6d14@news.mel.dft.com.au... > > We had a VT220 on the fifteenth floor connected via 4 wire modem > > as the secondary console to the VAX8800s PRO380. > > It could do everything but power on/off. > > I assume you mean power off the Pro380 as I believe powering off the > 8800 > was done from the console (only worked on 1 8800 in my field service > experience). Yeah, the code name for these 85xx/8800 systems was Nautilus and it had Remote port for managing the system, but as I recall, for safety reasons, you had to be on the PRO380 to do power on / off commands. [No one wanted someone remotely powering on a system when a service person might be working on the system.] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:07:28 -0700 From: Glen Herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: (snip) > The 11/780 did, as an option. You had to buy both an optional user > writeable control store, and the optional microcode to be loaded into > it. I remember doing testing on my second 11/780 to see if it was > worth it. I don't know this one at all. > IIRC, the 11/782 and 11/785 had the same options. I think the 11/750 > shipped with the H- and G-float microcode, but I don't recall how > it was handled on the 11/730 and 11/725. Around then I worked in a place with three 11/750's and one 11/730. It was well known that the 730 was faster for H-float, as it was emulated on the 750. It might be, though, that the 750 had both G-float and D-float microcode, if that was an option. As I understood it at the time, it was standard on the 730. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:07:38 -0700 From: Glen Herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: (snip) > In C speak, float would be done in VAX F-float or IEEE S-float, or > similar. double would be done in VAX D- or G-float, or IEEE T-float. > I don't know of any C compiler that supports VAX H-float or IEEE > X-float. The convention is that it would be (long double), though I don't know which systems have compilers that implement it. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: 03 Nov 2008 19:58:37 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: VAX-11/785 microdiagnostics help requested Message-ID: "Main, Kerry" writes: >> From: alderson+news@panix5.panix.com >> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 8:43 PM >> We have rebuilt the power supplies in two 785s (one native, one a 780-5, >> i. e. field-upgraded from a 780), and are starting out with diagnostics. >> The 11/03 front ends run the LSI-11 diagnostics fine. >> When we boot the system floppy, insert the Microdiagnostics floppy, and >> type TEST, we do not get the results we expect from the documentation. >> On the 785, we get a complaint about the SBI, and drop into ODT. >> On the 780-5, we drop into ODT. >> Does anyone here remember far enough back to impart a clue or two as to >> what is going on? > Going back into my memory banks, I seem to remember that the SBI cables > can be a real prob troubleshooting and flaky cables did cause issues with > Udiags as I recall. > One tip I remember us doing is to pwr off and remove the sbi cables and > see if the udiag tests got any further. If yes, then you knew the issue > was not in the CPU, but on the SBI. Thanks, Kerry, we tried that but no joy. Same result either way. We're looking at other possibilities now. -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ Date: 03 Nov 2008 20:25:31 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: VAX-11/785 microdiagnostics help requested Message-ID: jan.andersson@axfood.se writes: > I have worked with VAXes a long time ago and I don't remember any TEST > command. > What one do is to boot the diagnostic floppy to get Diagnostic > Supervisor prompt. > Do you have a DS> prompt? > Do you have this manual? > http://vt100.net/mirror/hcps/ds780ug2.pdf Thank you for your advice. We cannot successfully boot the Diagnostic Supervisor diskette, and are looking into why that might be. One of the other tools provided is the "Micro Diagnostics Floppy #1", part number AS-E158S-DE, which tests such things as whether the WCS is working at all. This is invoked from the >>> prompt with the TEST command, according to the installation manual. So I'm sorry that you've never heard of it. That does not mean that it does not exist, of course. -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.596 ************************