AILIST AILIST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU Discussion of topics in AI AILIST BIONET-20 protein-analysis@bionet-20.arpa Discussion of Protein AnalysisBIONET-20 s a local NRL topic board which promotes the sharing of non-classified developments and discoveries at the lab. Messages posted to this topic will be available to users of the CCF front end VAX machines only. To reply to a message on this topic board you need only select the SEND option and specify which message number you are replying to. You may send a file as your reply or you may use the editor to compose your reply while still using the bulletin board utility. The address for your reply will be built automatically by the bulletin board utility. You may choose to post your reply to the bulletin board or to the poster of the message only. To post a new message to this topic you select the ADD option. You may post a file you have previously prepared or use the editor to compose your message while using the bulletin board utility. '`SBIOTECH b Biotechnology Discussions BIOTECH PHYSICS PHYSICS@SRI-UNIX.ARPA Topics in Physics PHYSICS POLYMERP POLYMERP%RUTVM1@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Polymer Physics Discussion POLYMERP RSRCH-ADVANCES userservices@nrl.arpa Research Advances at NRL RSRCH-ADVANCES RSRCH-INQUIRIES userservices@nrl.arpa Research Inquiries at NRL RSRCH-INQUIRIES THEORYNET THEORYNET@IBM.COM Theoretical Computer Science THEORYNET '`SRSRCH-ADVANCES NRL1::PAUL About this topic board xRSRCH-ADVANCES is a local NRL topic board which promotes the sharing of non-classified developments and discoveries at the lab. Messages posted to this topic will be available to users of the CCF front end VAX machines only. To reply to a message on this topic board you need only select the SEND option and specify which message number you are replying to. You may send a file as your reply or you may use the editor to compose your reply while still using the bulletin board utility. 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'`S;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File From: NRL::MAILER 2-JUN-1988 00:27 To: NRL::PAUL Subj: [From: ] File: POLYMERP LOG8803 being sent to you Return-Path: <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:LISTSERV@RUTVM1.BITNET> Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU by nrl.arpa with SMTP ; Thu, 2 Jun 88 00:25:00 EDT Received: from RUTVM1.BITNET by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.1) with BSMTP id 5900; Wed, 01 Jun 88 20:12:58 EDT Received: by RUTVM1 (Mailer X1.25) id 7016; Wed, 01 Jun 88 20:11:27 EDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1988 20:11 EDT From: Revised List Processor (1.5n) Subject: File: "POLYMERP LOG8803" being sent to you To: paul%nrl.decnet@nrl.arpa ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File ; ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 88 23:10:01 EST Reply-To: Polymer Physics discussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions From: George Adams SUPERCOMPUTING '88 November 14-18, 1988 Hyatt Orlando Kissimmee, Florida, USA Sponsored by: Computer Society of the IEEE and ACM SIGARCH Subject: File: "POLYMERP LOG8803" being sent to you To: paul%nrl.decnet@nrl.arpa ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File P In Cooperation with: Argonne National Laboratory, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Los Alamos National Laboratory, NASA Ames Research Center, National Center for Atmospheric Research, National Science Foundation, SIAM, Supercomputing Research Center Papers submitted by: March 14, 1988 Research exhibit proposals due: April 4, 1988 Poster proposals due: August 2, 1988 Conference Highlights- Keynote Speaker: Seymour Cray, Cray Research Banquet Speaker: Carl Conti, IBM Enterprise Systems ACM Annual Computer Chess Tournament ET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> Subject: File: "POLYMERP LOG8803" being sent to you To: paul%nrl.decnet@nrl.arpa ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File Supercomputing '88 is a new conference that will bring together supercomputing system researchers, designers, and users to report new advances and experiences, state needs, suggest future directions, and contribute to discussions. It will include tutorials, a high quality technical program, on-line and video taped demonstrations, informal poster sessions, vendor and university exhibits, and product briefings. TOPICS OF INTEREST. Examples include, but are not limited to, the following: Science and Supercomputing The Impact of New Technology on the Future of Supercomputing Supercomputing Execution Environment Supercomputing Development Environment Supercomputing Application Environment Supercomputing System Evaluation ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File  Supercomputing Management Issues Mass Storage and Supercomputers Technical Aspects of Products User Experience PAPERS. Authors are invited to submit papers which report concrete results and experience. Papers reporting important negative results are also encouraged. Selection criteria will include originality, clarity, and relevance. Requirements: Papers must be original material not previously published. Papers must be submitted without conditions; authors must obtain any necessary approvals and/or clearances prior to submission. Copyright release will be required. Authors of accepted papers will be responsible for retyping corrected papers on special forms to be provided and for preparing visual System Evaluation ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File @material for their presentations using guidelines to be provided. Camera-ready copy is due July 18, 1988. Presentation visual material is due for quality review October 4, 1988. Instructions: Submit five copies to the Program Chairman by March 14, 1988. Papers must be in English, be typed double- spaced, and not exceed 25 pages (about 5000 words). Papers must have: (1) a title page that lists the name, mailing and electronic address, and telephone number for each author; (2) an abstract; (3) keywords; (4) and the presentation media requirement. For multiple author papers, identify the corresponding author and the presenting author. RESEARCH EXHIBITS. Some space will be available for researchers with demonstration-oriented exhibits of their research. ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File Instructions: Contact the Program Chairman. POSTERS. In addition to informal evening poster sessions, an on-line poster session will be scheduled where people who have developed interesting applications will demonstrate them using exhibitor equipment. Instructions: Contact the Program Chairman. Proposals for on- line posters should be made jointly with the collaborating exhibitor. SUPERCOMPUTING CENTER MANAGERS ROUNDTABLE. Special informal sessions will be organized so that supercomputing center managers can share recent progress, discuss common problems, and consider opportunities for collaboration. responding author and the presenting author. RESEARCH EXHIBITS. Some space will be available for researchers with demonstration-oriented exhibits of their research. ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File VSupercomputing '88 Organizing Committee General Chairman George Michael, LLNL Program Chairman Stephen Lundstrom, Stanford University and PARSA Deputy Chairman Robert Voigt, ICASE Exhibits Chairman Roger Anderson, LLNL Finance Chairman Sidney Fernbach, consultant Local Arrangements Chairman Dennis Duke, Florida State Univ. Publication Chairman Harlow Freitag, SRC Publicity Chairman George Adams, Purdue University and RIACS Supercomputing '88 Advisory Committee Robert Borchers Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Bill Buzbee National Center for Atmospheric Research F. Ron Bailey NASA Ames Research Center ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File Q Melvyn Ciment National Science Foundation Jack Dongarra Argonne National Lab Doug DeGroot ACM-Sigarch; Texas Instruments Joanne Martin IEEE Computer Society, TC on Supercomputing; IBM Norman R. Morse Los Alamos National Laboratory Paul Schneck Supercomputing Research Center Daniel Sorenson Argonne National Laboratory For information on the conference, program, or exhibits contact one of the following: General Chairman Program Chairman Exhibits Chairman George Michael, L-306 Stephen F. Lundstrom Roger Anderson, L-306 LLNL ERL 455 LLNL P. O. Box 808 Stanford University P. O. Box 808 Livermore, CA 94550 Stanford, CA 94305 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File (415) 422-4239 (415) 723-0140 (415) 422-8572 gam@lll-crg.arpa lundstrom@sierra.stanford.edu anderson@lll-crg.arpa For registration information contact the Computer Society of the IEEE, 1730 Massachusetts Ave., N.W., Washington, DC 20036-1903. (202) 371-1013 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Mar 88 14:48:57 EST Reply-To: Polymer Physics discussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions Comments: Resent-From: MILTY@UMass Comments: Originally-From: MILTY@UMass From: MILTY@UMASS Subject: Symposium at UConn LLNL P. O. Box 808 Stanford University P. O. Box 808 Livermore, CA 94550 Stanford, CA 94305 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File Symposium/Workshop sponsored by the Polymer Science Program and the Institute of Materials Science, The University of Connecticut: CONTROL OF POLYMER INTERFACE PROPERTIES May 19-20, 1988 Co-Chairmen: Andrew Garton, Jeffrey Koberstein Topics: Interface Fundamentals, Adhesion Aspects, Composite Interfaces Additional Information: Ms. Y. H. Chudy, Institiute of Materials Science, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06268 (203)486-3582 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Mar 88 15:13:45 SET Reply-To: Polymer Physics discussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions 0 Stanford, CA 94305 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File From: Markus Gahleitner Subject: WLF-Equations Short information about recent developments: We are working now in the field of WLF-parameters for amorphous polymer melts (especially PS). During this I am developing a versatile and interactive program for calculating these parameters from zero shear viscosities or shift factors as a function of the temperature. If you are interested in this work or would like to get the program (written in FORTRAN 77), please contact me. Markus Gahleitner, Linz University, Physical Chemistry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 88 09:33:23 SET ysics discussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions 0 Stanford, CA 94305 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File Reply-To: Polymer Physics discussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions From: Markus Gahleitner 0732/2468-795 REView PolymerP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 88 09:34:37 SET Reply-To: Polymer Physics discussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions From: Markus Gahleitner Subject: New Info I have updated our institute description for all subscribers of PolymerPhysics and I'm sending it out now again because there may be new information as well as new subscribers. iscussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions 0 Stanford, CA 94305 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File If you are interested in one or more of the subjects mentioned, please contact me. A publication listing will follow as soon as I've got time for it. ___________________________________________________________________________ Information about: J.Kepler University Linz, Austria Institute of Chemistry, Dept. of Physical Chemistry (Head: Prof. H.Janeschitz-Kriegl, Doz. R.Sobczak; Computer connection: M.Gahleitner) ___________________________________________________________________________ In our department, we are mainly working in the field of Polymer Physics and Chemistry. There are several working groups, which are tackling the following problems: Polymer Physics discussions 0 Stanford, CA 94305 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File -- Crystallization of Polymers (Janeschitz-Kriegl H, Eder G, Rataijski E) The crystallization of semicrystalline Polymers like PE and PP is investigated in rest and under shear, mathematical models are made for it. An apparatus for the observation of crystallization phenomena has been developed recently. One of the main aims is a realistic description of mouldfilling in injection moulding (industrial project). - Spinability of Polypropylene (Liedauer S) The spinability of technical PP is investigated. As it has turned out that this depends widely on crystallization phenomena it is done in cooperation with the above working group. Besides, direct spinning experiments are made (industrial project). - Correlation between molecular mass distribution/additive content of 05 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File  polymers and dynamic mechanical properties (Schausberger A, Knoglinger H) This work has, during the last years, set up a correlation between MMD G',G"-values of polymers, based on measurements on PS (mixtures of narrow distributed samples and technical types). Now the effect of low molecular components and additives on the dynamic mechanical behaviour is being investigated using additive-free PS and defined quantities of additives. - Flow birefringence (Roegl H) Using a cone-plate-rheometer especially equipped for flow birefringence measurements several experiments with complex strain history are performed to investigate nonlinear viscoelastic properties of polymer melts. rial project). - Correlation between molecular mass distribution/additive content of 05 Livermore, CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File D - Investigations with a 'Magnetoviscometer' (Sobczak R, Gahleitner M, Hermann W, Bernreitner K) The Magnetoviscometer was designed by R Sobczak three years ago and has been continuously improved since then. It is using the Stokes principle of measuring viscosities by the means of a falling sphere, while the gravitational field is replaced by an inhomogenous magnetic field providing a force up to 300 times gravitation on the sphere. It is used for: - Zero shear viscosity measurements in a wide range (1000 to 10**11 Pa.s) - Investigation of the cure behaviour of Epoxy resins (industrial project) - Viscosity measurements near the glass transition of amorphous polymers to investigate deviations from the WLF equation - Flow curve measurements (shear rate / time dependent viscosity) , CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File  - Viscosity measurement under pressure _________________________________________________________________________ Best greetings from Linz, MARKUS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 88 17:39:10 SET Reply-To: Polymer Physics discussions Sender: Polymer Physics discussions From: Markus Gahleitner Subject: LITLIST As already anounced, I am sending now a list with the recent publications of our department. If you are interested in anyone and it isn't available to you please contact me. sity measurements near the glass transition of amorphous polymers to investigate deviations from the WLF equation - Flow curve measurements (shear rate / time dependent viscosity) , CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File  Publications of : J.Kepler Universitaet Linz Dept. of physical Chemistry Linz, Austria 1986/1987 ________________________________________________________________________ * Crystallization of polymers: - Janeschitz-Kriegl H, Wimberger-Friedl R, Krobath G and Liedauer S "Ueber die Ausbildung von Schichtstrukturen in Kunststoff- Formteilen" (Formation of lateral structures in polymer parts) Kautschuk + Gummi, Kunststoffe 40/301 (1987) - Janeschitz-Kriegl H, Eder G, Krobath G and Liedauer S "The Stefan Problem in Polymer Processing: Theory and Experimentation" J. of Non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics 23/107 (1987) om the WLF equation - Flow curve measurements (shear rate / time dependent viscosity) , CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File  * Dynamic-mechanical properties of polymers: - Schausberger A "A simple method for evaluating the complex moduli of polystyrene blends" Rheologica Acta 25/596 (1986) - Knoglinger H, Schausberger A and Janeschitz-Kriegl H "The role of short chain molecules for the rheology of polystyrene melts. I. Molar mass dependent shift factors" Rheologica Acta 26/460 (1987) - Schausberger A, Knoglinger H and Janeschitz-Kriegl H "The role of short chain molecules for the rheology of polystyrene melts. II. Linear viscoelastic properties" Rheologica Acta 26/468 (1987) * Magnetoviscometer measurements: ation" J. of Non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics 23/107 (1987) om the WLF equation - Flow curve measurements (shear rate / time dependent viscosity) , CA 94550 ter ;;POLYMERP NRL1::PAUL March Archive File V - Sobczak R "Viscosity measurement by spheres falling in a magnetic field" Rheologica Acta 25/175 (1986) - Hermann W and Sobczak R "Falling sphere viscometry in gravitational and magnetic fields" Monatshefte fuer Chemie 117/753 (1986) - Gahleitner M and Sobczak R "Viscosity measurements with a magnetoviscometerin the zero shear and transition region of polypropylenes" Rheologica Acta 26/371 (1987) ______________________________________________________________________ Best regards and easter wishes from Linz MARKUS ties" Rheologica Acta 26/468 (1987) * Magnetoviscometer measurements: ation" J. of Non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics 23/107 (1987) om the WLF equation - Flow curve measurements (shear rate / time dependent viscosity) , CA 94550 ter ;V, BIONET-20 ABELSON.WESTAWAY@BIONET-20.ARPA Determination of Protein pI? S Does anyone out there know of a simple and fast method for the experimental determination of an already purified protein's isoelectric point, without buying or constructing unusual PAGE apparatus? Most of the recent methods I have seen apply to separating similar proteins away from each other, and involve construction of different apparatuses, or purchase of buffer gradient chemicals. Also, can the pI of a protein be determined under native conditions, or must it be denatured during the process? Thanks, reply to ABELSON.WESTAWAY, c/o BIONET-20.ARPA Shawn Westaway ------- UV1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE rYour reply covered several points so I will address them separately. > Another type of multidimensional sequence representation and objective > analysis has been found convenient by us when you dont know what to search > for, and where, in a sequence. This is a combination of discriminant method, > k-tuple representation and multidimensional representation. > Bougueleret et al. (1988) Nucl. Acids Res. 16, 1729-1738 > Claverie & Bougueleret (1986) Nucl. Acids Res. 14, 179-196. Thanks for reminding me of your papers. They represent one type of initial approach to what I call the semantic analysis of NA sequences. One thing I might add which is not always made clear in this type of study is that any particular stretch of DNA probably has many superimposed functions and this must be taken into account. In this particular case properties of tuples TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE were used to distinguish coding and non coding regions. These same regions whether coding or not also must contain information that determines the structure of the DNA itself; for example, nucleosome binding preference information may be independent functionally from the coding requirement. Also any of the structure requirements of the intermediate RNA must be simultaneously coded in the DNA template. Another that comes readily to mind are the structural requirements for the functioning of the DNA as a chromosome which includes replication, mitosis and meiosis, etc. Stretching this concept even further I believe that lack of consideration of all of the different types of phenotypic information beyond protein coding contained in the DNA is what allows the apparent "selective neutrality" hypotheses to exist. It is also probably the major reason for the failure of most (maybe all at present) simple attempts at pattern recognition. I believe that the maintenance of the degeneracy of the genetic code, which is very expensive to the cell or organism on any energy budget, througout the eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE ?reasons other than the direct coding of protein. I cannot believe that all of these simultaneous requirements are serially separated along any sequence but that they are superimposed and have been optimized and balanced over the course of evolution of both prokaryotic and eukariotic genomes. It is precisely this class of problem that is best addressed by multivariate methods. If nothing else the fact that more variables are needed can show up more readily. > As for the debate on the need for a vectorial representation of a.a.: I feel > it misses the point, because the main problem we are facing in sequence > analysis is that the information is not STRICTLY linear, but only > approximatively. Here are all the situations in real life: > - at some precise position a given aa is needed (ex: catalysis) st. It is also probably the major reason for the failure of most (maybe all at present) simple attempts at pattern recognition. I believe that the maintenance of the degeneracy of the genetic code, which is very expensive to the cell or organism on any energy budget, througout the eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE > - around a position a given aa is needed (ex: the "conserved K in prot. kinases) > - at some precise position everything BUT a given aa is needed (RAS activation) > - at some precise position a given type (+,-,aromat) of aa is needed (binding) > - around a position a given aa is needed (C-C link) > - around a position a vague type of aa is needed (secondary structure conserv.) The reasons you give here are exactly why I think the vector representation IS necessary. Each amino acid is a real molecule with many chemical and physical properties. What complicates the issues you address is the overlap of these properties among the residues. At any position, for the functions you cite and many more, probably all, the protein doesn't know about our reasons for using single letters to represent the residue at any position, it only knows that some property is needed. The protein through ent) simple attempts at pattern recognition. I believe that the maintenance of the degeneracy of the genetic code, which is very expensive to the cell or organism on any energy budget, througout the eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE ^evolution has selected some combination of these properties with differing emphasis on the individual properties at each position. If only strong basicity is needed then lysine or arginine will be ok, but if the excluded volume of the side chain is also important because it interferes with tertiary structure when the volumes of this and some other residue side chains are summed, then one or the other may be required depending on the particular combinations of properties in other sequence elements, etc., etc., throughout the protein. Multivariate statistical and algebraic methods were developed to handle cases just such as this, they are available, they work, they are easy to use and understand and they very readily adapt to serial processing in todays available computers. Even more importantly however, the advent of parallel processing machines will alleviate many of the space-time restrictions inherent in the matrix solutions on serial processors. (This all assumes that every sequence element has some selective effect - i. e. that the appearance of neutrality is due to lack eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE of knowledge to a sufficient depth. This is another entire subject which could be discussed on this board). > With one more difficulty: we dont know where is that "position" ... The same multivariate methods allow for the horizontal as well as vertical (and almost every angle in between via linear and time warping type transformations) processing of vector coefficients. We just don't usually think that way. (Maybe we do think that way in a parallel fashion but we are severly hindered by the necessity to serialize the thoughts for written and verbal communication) I agree that this is a difficulty, but only a technical one, and neither a theoretical nor operational impossibility. > It is clearly illusory to think that a new computer algorithm might solve > all these problems at once, given the evolutionary noise stored in all > these sequence which, dont forget, have all evolved from very few ancestors > (may be only able to fold in a somewhat compact shape to resist hydrolysis). has some selective effect - i. e. that the appearance of neutrality is due to lack eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE  The "noise" you introduce here is an excellent example of the lack of consideration of a possible meaning for results which don't fit the theory which is applied at the time. Again I believe that what you call noise does have some function which we just don't understand yet. this is what I was trying to convey above. > For instance, how to instruct a multialignment program, very proud to have > located a conserved KKKK, or LLLL motif, that it has almost no biological > signification whatsoever, in MOST of the case. At the present, most of > the alignment program will focus on those, and mis the more subtil, isolated > and approximate, but functionaly relevant truly homologous positions. If I restrict all attempts to analyse sequence data to the algorithms now in vogue in molecular biology I would probably agree. Since very little of the reservoir of mathematics and computer science has yet entered this arena I am much more hopeful and optimistic. Therefore I, and I assume many others will has some selective effect - i. e. that the appearance of neutrality is due to lack eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE continue to attack these very interesting problems, trying even new and possibly unorthodox, even heretical to the "good old boys", methods. Most probably will fail, but then ...... > Matrices, "perceptron" (a sexy name for the former) algorithms will fail > lamentably anytime that a strict positional constraint is not to be respected. Twenty years ago I would have agreed with this, but times have changed. Matrices are one of the algebraic structures which are used in the perceptron METHOD. In their very simplest form, perceptrons were shown not to be able to solve some very easy problems. Since this proof was published by one or the established giants of the field, extensions of the concept were suppressed for many years. New connectionist models have overcome many of the previous restrictions of single level perceptrons and have ushered an explosion of new development and enthusiam. If what you say of perceptrons is true then many researchers time and a great deal of money thers will has some selective effect - i. e. that the appearance of neutrality is due to lack eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE is being wasted on other pattern recognition problems such as visual and speech perception. Perhaps these workers are just imagining all the results they are achieving in these fields and we should avoid wasting our time trying to extend the techniques to other signal analysis and pattern recognition analogs such as molecular sequence interpretation. > Representing a.a by vectors will not alleviate this difficulty inherent to > the fundamental fact that proteins are 3-D objects which only Nature (I wonder > if even God knows how ...) knows how to fold from an evolutionary-slopy > 1-D aa sequence. I have no evidence on "Gods" so I'll leave that out of my discussion. Methods to predict higher order structure of macromolecules from a sequence of scalar representations of the monomers are apriori destined to failure due to neeglect of the real physical and chemical properties of the monomers. Even more important here is the degeneracy between different amino acids, which cannot be accounted for without a vector tive effect - i. e. that the appearance of neutrality is due to lack eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`V1@BIONET-20 CMATHEWS.KRAMER@BIONET-20.ARPA reply to CLAVERIE representation. Also I don't think we should automatically attribute sloppyness to a process just because we don't understand all the ramifications. > .. and please, dont talk about A.I. (Absolutely Incompetent) programming. I think time will provide the only answer to this comment. Tradition and dogma die very slowly. Jack Kramer kramerj@ucs.orst.edu cmathews.kramer@bionet-20.arpa ------- difficulty inherent to > the fundamental fact that proteins are 3-D objects which only Nature (I wonder > if even God knows how ...) knows how to fold from an evolutionary-slopy > 1-D aa sequence. I have no evidence on "Gods" so I'll leave that out of my discussion. Methods to predict higher order structure of macromolecules from a sequence of scalar representations of the monomers are apriori destined to failure due to neeglect of the real physical and chemical properties of the monomers. Even more important here is the degeneracy between different amino acids, which cannot be accounted for without a vector tive effect - i. e. that the appearance of neutrality is due to lack eons of evolution is directly attributable to the phenotypic requirements of the DNA molecule itself. By this I include all of the interactions of the DNA molecule for TO7`VuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availablFrom: NRL::MAILER 21-JUN-1988 03:26 To: NRL::PAUL Subj: [From: wrp@biochsn.acc.Virginia.EDU] FASTA search programs available Return-Path: <@BIONET-20.ARPA:news@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> Received: from BIONET-20.ARPA by nrl.arpa with SMTP ; Tue, 21 Jun 88 03:26:31 EDT Received: from presto.ig.com by BIONET-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 21 Jun 88 00:22:34-PDT Received: by presto.ig.com (5.59/1.14) id AA13365; Tue, 21 Jun 88 00:25:46 PDT Resent-Date: 21 Jun 88 02:38:46 GMT Resent-From: news@hudson.acc.virginia.edu (Operator) Resent-Message-Id: <8806210725.AA13365@presto.ig.com> Message-Id: <8806210725.AA13365@presto.ig.com> From: wrp@biochsn.acc.virginia.edu (William R. Pearson) VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabl9Subject: FASTA search programs available Date: 21 Jun 88 02:38:46 GMT Sender: news@hudson.acc.virginia.edu Reply-To: wrp@biochsn.acc.Virginia.EDU (William R. Pearson) Posted: Mon Jun 20 22:38:46 1988 Apparently-To: bionet-protein-analysis-arpanet@bionet Recently, David Lipman and I published a paper describing improved programs for DNA and protein sequence analysis in PNAS (1988) 85:2444. This is a large group of programs, called the FASTA package, that replace the older FASTP and FASTN library search programs. The FASTA package includes the FASTA and TFASTA programs for database searches, LFASTA and PLFASTA for local similarity searches and plots, RDF2, and a large number of programs that were not described in the PNAS paper. These other programs include ALIGN, a program for VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availablhrigorous global alignment using code from Gene Myers and Webb Miller, GARNIER, GREASE, and TGREASE, programs for examining protein structure, and other programs for extracting sequences from libraries, calculating amino acid compositions, etc. These programs are written in 'C' and have been tested under UNIX Sys V, SUN OS (4.3 BSD), Xenix, VAX/VMS, DOS, and on the MacIntosh. The FASTA package does not include any sequence databases, but versions of the program work with the NBRF/PIR protein and DNA sequence databases on VAX/VMS computers, libraries in the U. Wisconsin Genetics Computer Group format, and sequence libraries in the GENBANK compressed floppy disk format on the IBM-PC and unix machines. Since this group of programs runs on a large variety of computers, copies of the program are available in a variety of forms. VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabl/ UNIX FTP The simplest way to get the FASTA package is by anonymous ftp from the ARPANET host uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU. If your university has arpanet access, you should try this first. From a machine that has access to the ARPANET, type: ftp uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU or alternatively ftp 128.143.2.7 and login with the user Name: anonymous and a Password: your_userid The FASTA package is in the file public_access/fasta.shar. To transfer the file: uters, libraries in the U. Wisconsin Genetics Computer Group format, and sequence libraries in the GENBANK compressed floppy disk format on the IBM-PC and unix machines. Since this group of programs runs on a large variety of computers, copies of the program are available in a variety of forms. VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabl cd public_access get fasta.shar fasta.shar This is a unix "shar" file, which means that on a unix machine, you can type: sh fasta.shar and the fasta.shar file will be broken into the files required to recompile fasta programs. A "Makefile" is included for Sun (4.2BSD), ATT SysV, and Xenix flavors of unix. Another "makefile" is included for Turbo 'C' on the IBM-PC, and a third is included for the VMS operating system on a VAX. If you copy the programs from uvaarpa, please send a mail message to "wrp@Virginia.EDU" with your name and address (or e- mail address) so that I can keep track of who has the program, and of programs runs on a large variety of computers, copies of the program are available in a variety of forms. VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabl inform you of any bugs that may crop up. VAX/VMS If you are planning to use these programs on a VAX/VMS computer, you should get a VAX/VMS backup tape directly from me. There is no charge for the tape, but I ask that you copy the files from the tape and return it to me as soon as possible. Please do not send me tapes, as it is much easier for me to make a large number of tapes and recycle them than it is to make individual tapes. UNIX If you do not have ARPANET access but are running UNIX, I can make a UNIX tar tape with the fasta.shar file, or I can write 60 Mbyte SUN cartridges. Again, please do not send me a tape, just return the one I send you, promptly. y of computers, copies of the program are available in a variety of forms. VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabloIBM-PC The FASTA package comes on three 5 1/4 floppy disks for the IBM-PC, and includes complete source code and executable versions of the programs, and also *.BGI graphics device driver programs from Borland's Turbo 'C' package. I am charging $60.00 US for the PC version of the program, please send checks to: William R. Pearson 1611 Westwood Rd. Charlottesville, VA 22901 There is a $25.00 additional charge for purchase ord- ers. Macintosh The FASTA package is also running on the Macintosh computer, ape with the fasta.shar file, or I can write 60 Mbyte SUN cartridges. Again, please do not send me a tape, just return the one I send you, promptly. y of computers, copies of the program are available in a variety of forms. VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabli although the program is not very "Mac-like". I expect to be distributing the Macintosh version by June 1. The Mac version will also cost $60.00 US, please send checks to the address above. Sequence Libraries If you are getting the FASTA package for use on an IBM-PC or Macintosh, I can also provide the NBRF-Protein sequence library. I only provide the sequence portion of the library, if you need the annotations, you should arrange to get an account on the NBRF-PIR computer, or on BIONET. A single copy of the library costs $50 (7 IBM-PC disks as of release 16, 31-March-1988), a one year subscription (the library and 3 updates as they come out) costs $200. Please add $25 for purchase order processing. The protein sequence library on Macintosh disks costs $75.00, a one year sub- VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availablKscription is $300. Overseas orders for the protein sequence library should add $10 for one copy, $40.00 for a one-year subscription (4 copies). (Please note: Some you have subscribed to the pro- tein sequence library in the past, and received a note saying that I was no longer distributing the library. Well, I've changed my mind, and have de- cided to go back to diskette duplication.) The GENBANK DNA sequence library is available for the IBM-PC and the Macintosh from: GenBank c/o Intelligenetics 700 E. El Camino Real brary costs $50 (7 IBM-PC disks as of release 16, 31-March-1988), a one year subscription (the library and 3 updates as they come out) costs $200. Please add $25 for purchase order processing. The protein sequence library on Macintosh disks costs $75.00, a one year sub- VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabl Mountain View, CA 94040 USA They charge $125 - $175 for release 55.0 of the library, depending on the method of payment, and the disk format requested. If you need a VAX/VMS 9-track tape or a UNIX 9-track tape or 60 Mbyte cartridge, please write me at: Department of Biochemistry Box 440 Jordan Hall U. of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22908 or send me electronic mail at: wrp@virginia.EDU, wrp@virginia.BITNET, or ...!uunet!virginia!wrp. Please do not send me any tapes or diskettes. Intelligenetics 700 E. El Camino Real brary costs $50 (7 IBM-PC disks as of release 16, 31-March-1988), a one year subscription (the library and 3 updates as they come out) costs $200. Please add $25 for purchase order processing. The protein sequence library on Macintosh disks costs $75.00, a one year sub- VuVuBIONET-20 NRL1::PAUL FASTA search programs availabl* William R. Pearson wrp@virginia.EDU harge $125 - $175 for release 55.0 of the library, depending on the method of payment, and the disk format requested. If you need a VAX/VMS 9-track tape or a UNIX 9-track tape or 60 Mbyte cartridge, please write me at: Department of Biochemistry Box 440 Jordan Hall U. of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22908 or send me electronic mail at: wrp@virginia.EDU, wrp@virginia.BITNET, or ...!uunet!virginia!wrp. Please do not send me any tapes or diskettes. Intelligenetics 700 E. El Camino Real brary costs $50 (7 IBM-PC disks as of release 16, 31-March-1988), a one year subscription (the library and 3 updates as they come out) costs $200. Please add $25 for purchase order processing. The protein sequence library on Macintosh disks costs $75.00, a one year sub- Vu\RSRCH-INQUIRIES NRL3::MONIUS CFD Does anyone have a smallish 3-D panel method CFD program in source code that I could play with? I don't need something as complex and expensive as VS-AERO, just something so I can figure out some simple (recreational) stuff. thanks VAX102::[monius] \f~7BIONET-20 CABELL.ANDREWS@BIONET-20.ARPA peptide solubility Hi...... I'm looking a bit of help with a problem . I am interested in coupling a co-factor to a peptide consisting of 20 amino acids. This peptide is not soluble at pH 7, is very slightly soluble at acidic pH (2), and dissolves instantly at basic pH (12). The peptide contains two Cys and has a calculated pI of 5.5. I always believed that at such a basic pH, disulphide bond formation would be taking place and therefore the solubilty should be even lower. Once the pH is droppped below 12 the peptide precipitates. It is essential that I get this peptide quantitatively into solution, yet still have the SH groups free. I have tried a variety of detergents (SDS, TWEEN, octylglucoside, etc..) at pH 7 but haven't had much luck in getting the peptide into solution. I was hoping that someone might have some suggestions relating to the flolowing questions: (a) If I do dissolve the peptide at basic pH, will the SH groups still be free, or will they be tied up as disulphide? fd.f~7BIONET-20 CABELL.ANDREWS@BIONET-20.ARPA peptide solubility f (b) Are there any detergents (or other reagents) that would aid in dissolving this peptide at pH 7? In a related problem, I am also interested in separating the peptide from unreacted co-factor after I have attempted to link the two. I was wondering if anyone would have some thoughts on the following questions: (a) A very simple separation method would be TCA precipitation. Is a peptide of MW 2436 too small to be precipitated out of solution with 5% TCA? (b) SEP-PAKS (C18) don't have the resolution to separate the peptide from unreacted co-factor, and HPLC works but is too time consuming. Any other quick and dirty separation separation steps that might work? I was thinking of maybe along the lines of an ion exchange SEP-PAK or perhaps some kind of ion pairing extraction. Thanks.. he flolowing questions: (a) If I do dissolve the peptide at basic pH, will the SH groups still be free, or will they be tied up as disulphide? fd.f~7BIONET-20 CABELL.ANDREWS@BIONET-20.ARPA peptide solubility Paul Andrews Paul Andrews: CABELL.ANDREWS@BIONET-20.ARPA: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Steve Bauer.....the Fenwick Flash !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (well....maybe next time Steve) ------- I was wondering if anyone would have some thoughts on the following questions: (a) A very simple separation method would be TCA precipitation. Is a peptide of MW 2436 too small to be precipitated out of solution with 5% TCA? (b) SEP-PAKS (C18) don't have the resolution to separate the peptide from unreacted co-factor, and HPLC works but is too time consuming. Any other quick and dirty separation separation steps that might work? I was thinking of maybe along the lines of an ion exchange SEP-PAK or perhaps some kind of ion pairing extraction. Thanks.. he flolowing questions: (a) If I do dissolve the peptide at basic pH, will the SH groups still be free, or will they be tied up as disulphide? fd.fXPOLYMERP SCHEUTJE%HWALHW50.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Polymer Physics Database zDear PolymerP subscriber, You may be interested in the new Polymer Physics Database on Bitnet/EARN. A PolymerP FILELIST has just been installed on Listserv@HEARN and Listserv@RUTVM1. Send the command GET POLYMERP FILELIST to one of these two listserv's to receive the filelist and send GET POLYMERP to receive one of the files. The current entries are SUBJECT INDEX List of subjects EMAIL ADDRESS Electronic mail addresses VACANCY NOTEPAD New positions in Polymer Physics PROJECTS FILELIST Polymer Physics projects PROGRAMS FILELIST Computer programs b`fXPOLYMERP SCHEUTJE%HWALHW50.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Polymer Physics Database  If you have any material for the database, just send a note to the appropriate file owner. His e-mail address should be listed, both in the header of the file and in the filelist. You could probably add to, e.g., the vacancy list or the list of computer programs. Computer programs can be public domain or shareware. Examples: programs for Monte Carlo simulations, Molecular dynamics, critical points, ellipsometry, etc., are very welcome. And let your colleagues know about your projects and e-mail addresses! If you want to maintain a file on another topic, just send me a note. To be a file owner does not take much time, but helps to create an up-to-date Polymer Physics Database. Note that I'm not on the net until August 15. I expect a full mailbox by then 1;-)#. b`fXPOLYMERP SCHEUTJE%HWALHW50.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Polymer Physics Database C Enjoy, Jan Scheutjens Owner of PolymerP he appropriate file owner. His e-mail address should be listed, both in the header of the file and in the filelist. You could probably add to, e.g., the vacancy list or the list of computer programs. Computer programs can be public domain or shareware. Examples: programs for Monte Carlo simulations, Molecular dynamics, critical points, ellipsometry, etc., are very welcome. And let your colleagues know about your projects and e-mail addresses! If you want to maintain a file on another topic, just send me a note. To be a file owner does not take much time, but helps to create an up-to-date Polymer Physics Database. Note that I'm not on the net until August 15. I expect a full mailbox by then 1;-)#. b`i-yA`BIONET-20 nmri%nrl.decnet@nrl.arpa T cell epitope determination sDoes anyone in netland have a copy of the Berzofsky algorithm for determining T cell anitgenic sites based on the primary amino acid sequence that runs on an IBM-PC or clone that they could e-mail to me or that is available for anonymous ftp? I am also interested in other packages using different algorithms if they are available. Thanks in advance, Mike Dobson ARPANET: nmri@nrl.arpa Rickettsial Diseases Div. BITNET: kyy@nihcudec.BITNET Naval Medical Resch Inst PhoneNet: (301)295-0756 Bethesda, MD 20814-5055 ****************************************************************************** My employer nevers knows what I'm thinking so there is no way he could agree/disagree with my statements! hYo i-yA`BIONET-20 nmri%nrl.decnet@nrl.arpa T cell epitope determination sU ******************************************************************************* anitgenic sites based on the primary amino acid sequence that runs on an IBM-PC or clone that they could e-mail to me or that is available for anonymous ftp? I am also interested in other packages using different algorithms if they are available. Thanks in advance, Mike Dobson ARPANET: nmri@nrl.arpa Rickettsial Diseases Div. BITNET: kyy@nihcudec.BITNET Naval Medical Resch Inst PhoneNet: (301)295-0756 Bethesda, MD 20814-5055 ****************************************************************************** My employer nevers knows what I'm thinking so there is no way he could agree/disagree with my statements! hYo kTHEORYNET mike%bucasb.bu.edu@BU-IT.BU.EDU FIRST ANNUAL MEETING OF THE IN-----Meeting Update----- September 6--10, 1988 Park Plaza Hotel Boston, Massachusetts The first annual INNS meeting promises to be a historic event. Its program includes the largest selection of investigators ever assembled to present the full range of neural network research and applications. The meeting will bring together over 2000 scientists, engineers, students, government administrators, industrial commercializers, and financiers. It is rapidly selling out. Reserve now to avoid disappointment. Call J.R. Shuman Associates, (617) 237-7931 for information about registration For information about hotel reservations, call the Park Plaza Hotel at (800) 225-2008 and reference "Neural Networks." If you call from Massachusetts, call (800) 462-2022. k e-kTHEORYNET mike%bucasb.bu.edu@BU-IT.BU.EDU FIRST ANNUAL MEETING OF THE IN= There will be 600 scientific presentations, including tutorials, plenary lectures, symposia, and contributed oral and poster presentations. Over 50 exhibits are already reserved for industrial firms, publishing houses, and government agencies. The full day of tutorials presented on September 6 will be given by Gail Carpenter, John Daugman, Stephen Grossberg, Morris Hirsch, Teuvo Kohonen, David Rumelhart, Demetri Psaltis, and Allen Selverston. The plenary lecturers are Stephen Grossberg, Carver Mead, Terrence Sejnowski, Nobuo Suga, and Bernard Widrow. Approximately 30 symposium lectures will be given, 125 contributed oral presentations, and 400 poster presentations. Fourteen professional societies are cooperating with the INNS meeting. They are: American Association of Artificial Intelligence k e-kTHEORYNET mike%bucasb.bu.edu@BU-IT.BU.EDU FIRST ANNUAL MEETING OF THE INu American Mathematical Society Association for Behavior Analysis Cognitive Science Society IEEE Boston Section IEEE Computer Society IEEE Control Systems Society IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society IEEE Systems, Man and Cybernetics Society Optical Society of America Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics Society for Mathematical Biology Society of Photo-Optical Instrumentation Engineers Society for the Experimental Analysis of Behavior DO NOT MISS THE FIRST BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION OF THIS IMPORTANT NEW RESEARCH COALITION! ibuted oral presentations, and 400 poster presentations. Fourteen professional societies are cooperating with the INNS meeting. They are: American Association of Artificial Intelligence k e-kTHEORYNET mike%bucasb.bu.edu@BU-IT.BU.EDU FIRST ANNUAL MEETING OF THE IN American Mathematical Society Association for Behavior Analysis Cognitive Science Society IEEE Boston Section IEEE Computer Society IEEE Control Systems Society IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society IEEE Systems, Man and Cybernetics Society Optical Society of America Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics Society for Mathematical Biology Society of Photo-Optical Instrumentation Engineers Society for the Experimental Analysis of Behavior DO NOT MISS THE FIRST BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION OF THIS IMPORTANT NEW RESEARCH COALITION! ibuted oral presentations, and 400 poster presentations. Fourteen professional societies are cooperating with the INNS meeting. They are: American Association of Artificial Intelligence k e-mʠBIONET-20 JREVEL.HOH@BIONET-20.ARPA 2-D gel coordinates Help! We have some 2-D protein gels and would like to be able to identify some of the proteins on them. Are there any collections 2-D gel coordinates out there? We are particularly interested in rat proteins. Thanks Jan Hoh ------- lnjB nH@THEORYNET ian@PSUVAX1.CS.PSU.EDU cheap proceedings Due to some confusion, I find myself with two extra copies of the 1988 STOC proceedings. I am willing (eager) to part with them at the cost price of $25, a substantial savings over the regular price. I will pay any (reasonable) postage costs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ian Parberry ian@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ian@psuvax1.BITNET ian@psuvax1.UUCP Dept of Comp Sci, 333 Whitmore Lab, Penn State Univ, University Park, Pa. 16802 mwY`v נTHEORYNET yalevm!SUNKANA@YALE-BULLDOG.ARPA Can someone suggest a good sur*I was asked to give an introduction talk to Complexity Theory, e.g. NP- complete. Before that I need to hand out some reference. Can anyone sugge an good survey article on this topic? Perhaps one that is not too difficu Have anyone seen anything on Scientific American or Spectrum etc? Thanks. v<(voTHEORYNET ian%PSUVAXS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU my left-over proceedings are s> Due to some confusion, I find myself with two extra copies of the 1988 > STOC proceedings. I am willing (eager) to part with them at the cost price > of $25, a substantial savings over the regular price. I will pay any > (reasonable) postage costs. I am happy to say that the proceedings have found new owners. The flood of responses was unexpected, and indicates a healthy level of interest in theoretical computer science. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ian Parberry ian@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ian@psuvax1.BITNET ian@psuvax1.UUCP Dept of Comp Sci, 333 Whitmore Lab, Penn State Univ, University Park, Pa. 16802 vd:viK`THEORYNET mcvax!ukc!strath-cs!glasgow!jack@UUNET.UU.NET polymorphism versus macroexpanPCan anyone point me to some work that describes the limits of polymorphism implemented by an Ada-like macro-expansion technique? I can think of some recursive types that can't be checked that way, but would like a precise description of its limitations. -- ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.uucp JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs useBANGnet: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack Mail: Jack Campin, Computing Science Dept., Glasgow Univ., 17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, SCOTLAND work 041 339 8855 x 6045; home 041 556 1878 vovL@THEORYNET lisper-bjorn@YALE-BULLDOG.ARPA cutting bodies with planes v I would appreciate pointers, suggestions, references, algorithms etc. to the following problem: Given a body K in R^k. Find a k-1-hyperplane H that cuts K into K1 and K2 such that the k-1-volume of the intersection of H and K is minimized while the k-volumes of K1 and K2 are equal. k = 2 and 3 are cases of special interest. What role does the representation of the body play from an algorithmic point of view? I suspect that this is a very hard problem to solve in general. Are there approximation algorithms? What about convex bodies? I cross-posted this to comp.graphics since it seems related to solid v.`vL@THEORYNET lisper-bjorn@YALE-BULLDOG.ARPA cutting bodies with planes modelling. I would appreciate if people who see it there would e-mail any comments to me since I don't read that newsgroup. Bjorn Lisper ARPA: lisper-bjorn@cs.yale.edu UUCP: {decvax,ucbvax,harvard,cmcl2,...}!yale!lisper-bjorn BITNET: lisper@yalecs s of K1 and K2 are equal. k = 2 and 3 are cases of special interest. What role does the representation of the body play from an algorithmic point of view? I suspect that this is a very hard problem to solve in general. Are there approximation algorithms? What about convex bodies? I cross-posted this to comp.graphics since it seems related to solid v.`vvTHEORYNET ian%PSUVAXS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU TCS geneology lThis is an official call for updates to the Theoretical Computer Science geneological data-base (see David S. Johnson, "The Geneology of Theoretical Computer Science", SIGACT News 16(2) (1984) 36-44, and EATCS Bulletin 25 (1985) 198-211). If you can provide corrections to the data-base, answer any of the open problems listed there, or provide new entries, please send them to one of the addresses below (email preferred), rather than to David Johnson. The following classes of individuals are eligible for inclusion in the data-base. New entries are welcome to indicate into which class they fall. The guidelines can be interpreted liberally, since, to quote David Johnson: "The intent ... is to ensure that all contributing members of the community are included, and to guarantee that interesting connections to the outside world can be pointed out". v z`vvTHEORYNET ian%PSUVAXS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU TCS geneology (A) Ph. D.'s who (1) have written a significant paper in theoretical computer science (in a refereed theoretical computer science journal or conference). (2) regularly attend STOC/FOCS conferences. (B) Advisor of a member of (A). (C) Famous person from another field (computer science, mathematics, physics, politics etc.) who has an ancestor who has a descendant in (A). (D) All of the people whose inclusion links (C) to (A). Naturally, we are most interested in classes (A) and (B). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ian Parberry ian@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ian@psuvax1.BITNET ian@psuvax1.UUCP (814) 863-3600 Dept of Comp Sci, 333 Whitmore Lab, Penn State Univ, University Park, Pa 16802 tee that interesting connections to the outside world can be pointed out". v z`vTHEORYNET jones@HERKY.CS.UIOWA.EDU Application of Splay Trees to Anyone interested in C source code for a UNIX utility using the prefix code compression and encryption algorithm I described in the August '88 issue of Communications of the ACM should send me mail with their network address and postal address. The utility is patterned after the BSD UNIX compress utility (Ziv Lempel), and when allowed to use about 100 states in its Markov model, it compresses about as well (sometimes better, sometimes worse). The utility was written by a high-school student working under my direction this summer, and he has decided to restrict commercial distribution, while encouraging research use of the software. Open questions we would particularly like to see answered are: 1) We used a stupid Markov model which knows nothing of the source. Is there an adaptive (or better, locally adaptive) Markov model which is equally computationally trivial but allows better advantage to be taken of the vQ" vTHEORYNET jones@HERKY.CS.UIOWA.EDU Application of Splay Trees to * source statistics for any particular message? 2) How secure is the use of this algorithm for encryption? 3) How does the security of the algorithm vary as a function of the number letters in the key string used to permute the splay tree, assuming that a Markov model is not used (that is, the number of states is 1). 4) Were we right in guessing that compressing a few characters of random data at the head of the message would make known-text attacks more difficult? 5) When used for encryption, if the length of the key string used to permute the splay trees is fixed, does adding states to the Markov model make the encryption less secure? We suspect so, so we made the default number of states 1 in the presence of a key. Douglas Jones aptive (or better, locally adaptive) Markov model which is equally computationally trivial but allows better advantage to be taken of the vQ" vTHEORYNET jones@HERKY.CS.UIOWA.EDU Application of Splay Trees to Department of Computer Science University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 jones@herky.cs.uiowa.edu lgorithm vary as a function of the number letters in the key string used to permute the splay tree, assuming that a Markov model is not used (that is, the number of states is 1). 4) Were we right in guessing that compressing a few characters of random data at the head of the message would make known-text attacks more difficult? 5) When used for encryption, if the length of the key string used to permute the splay trees is fixed, does adding states to the Markov model make the encryption less secure? We suspect so, so we made the default number of states 1 in the presence of a key. Douglas Jones aptive (or better, locally adaptive) Markov model which is equally computationally trivial but allows better advantage to be taken of the vQ" v#STHEORYNET GALIL@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU 12th Columbia University Theor~------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE 12TH THEORY DAY at Columbia University SPONSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF COMPUTER SCIENCE FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 1988 10:00 PROFESSOR LESLIE G. VALIANT Harvard University FUNCTIONALITY IN NEURAL NETS v ~v#STHEORYNET GALIL@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU 12th Columbia University Theor11:00 PROFESSOR RICHARD J. LIPTON Princeton University P-RAM: A NEW SCALABLE IMPLEMENTATION 2:00 PROFESSOR JIAWEI HONG Beijing Computer Institute and University of Massachusetts NEW DEVELOPMENTS ON PROVING BY EXAMPLES 3:00 PROFESSOR NEIL IMMERMAN Yale University DESCRIPTIVE AND COMPUTATIONAL COMPLEXITY v ~v#STHEORYNET GALIL@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU 12th Columbia University Theor Coffee will be available at 9:30 am. All lectures will be in the Kellogg Conference Center on the fifteenth floor of the International Affairs Building, 118th Street and Amsterdam Avenue. The lectures are free and open to the public. Call (212) 280-2736 or (212) 854-2736 for more information. Theory Day is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation. v ~v#STHEORYNET GALIL@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU 12th Columbia University Theor ------- e will be available at 9:30 am. All lectures will be in the Kellogg Conference Center on the fifteenth floor of the International Affairs Building, 118th Street and Amsterdam Avenue. The lectures are free and open to the public. Call (212) 280-2736 or (212) 854-2736 for more information. Theory Day is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation. v ~v'THEORYNET RIPBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU LICS '89 :------------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS Logic in Computer Science (LICS) Fourth Annual Symposium June 5-8, 1989, Asilomar, California The Symposium will cover a wide range of theoretical and practical issues in Computer Science that relate to logic in a broad sense, including algebraic and topological approaches. Suggested (but not exclusive) topics of interest include: abstract data types, computer theorem proving, concurrency, data base theory, knowledge representation, finite model theory, lambda and combinatory calculi, logic programming, logics in artificial intelligence, modal and temporal logics, program logic and semantics, software specification, types and categories, v P"`v'THEORYNET RIPBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU LICS '89 constructive mathematics, verification. Paper submission: 15 copies of a detailed abstract (not a full paper) should be RECEIVED by October 21, 1988 by the program chairman: Prof. Rohit Parikh - LICS Department of Computer Science Brooklyn College of CUNY Bedford Avenue & Avenue H Brooklyn, NY 11210, U.S.A. Bitnet: RIPBC@CUNYVM Internet: ripbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu NB: papers from outside the U.S.A. should arrive by October 25. Abstracts must be clearly written and provide sufficient detail to allow the program committee to assess the merits of the paper. References and comparisons with related work should be included where appropriate. The programming, logics in artificial intelligence, modal and temporal logics, program logic and semantics, software specification, types and categories, v P"`v'THEORYNET RIPBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU LICS '89 Lentire extended abstract should not exceed 10 double-spaced pages in 10 or 12-point font (2500 words). Late abstracts, or those departing significantly from these guidelines, run a high risk of not being considered. The authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by December 23, 1988. Accepted papers, typed on special forms for inclusion in the symposium proceedings, will be due February 20, 1989. The symposium is sponsored by the IEEE Technical Committee on Mathematical Foundations of Computing, in cooperation with ACM SIGACT, ASL, and EATCS. Program Committee: Martin Davis, Melvin Fitting, Matthew Hennessey, David Israel, Joxan Jaffar, Deborah Joseph, Deepak Kapur, Dennis Kfoury, Phokion Kolaitis, Dexter Kozen, Vladimir Lifschitz, Rohit Parikh (chair), Amir Pnueli, Vaughan Pratt, Rick Statman. v P"`v'THEORYNET RIPBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU LICS '89 rOrganizing Committee: J. Barwise, W. Bledsoe, A. Chandra, E. Dijkstra, E. Engeler, J.Goguen, D. Gries, Y. Gurevich, D. Kozen, Z. Manna, A. Meyer (chair), R.Parikh, G.Plotkin, D.Scott. Conference Chair Local Arrangements Chair Prof. Albert R. Meyer Martin Abadi Laboratory for Computer Science Digital Equipment Corporation MIT Systems Research Center 545 Technology Square 130 Lytton Avenue Cambridge, MA 02139, U.S.A. Palo Alto, CA 94301, U.S.A. Internet: meyer@theory.lcs.mit.edu ma@src.dec.com Matthew Hennessey, David Israel, Joxan Jaffar, Deborah Joseph, Deepak Kapur, Dennis Kfoury, Phokion Kolaitis, Dexter Kozen, Vladimir Lifschitz, Rohit Parikh (chair), Amir Pnueli, Vaughan Pratt, Rick Statman. v P"`v,~`THEORYNET leah!rsb584@CSD1.MILW.WISC.EDU Problem: zeros of a function } Some Notation First: Notation Read As x[n] "the N-th X" or "X sub N" x^y "X raised to the Y power" ABS(x) "the absolute value of X" Problem Statement: Need a method to find the zeros of the function: f(t) = (w[1] + t * v[1]) ^ (e[1]) + (w[2] + t * v[2]) ^ (e[2]) v xE`v,~`THEORYNET leah!rsb584@CSD1.MILW.WISC.EDU Problem: zeros of a function  + (w[3] + t * v[3]) ^ (e[3]) - 1 subject to the constraints: e[i] > 0 for i equal to 1, 2 and 3 at least one e[i] > 1 where i can be 1, 2 or 3 at least one e[i] < 1 where i can be 1, 2 or 3 at least one v[i] > 0 where i can be 1, 2 or 3 at lease one v[i] < 0 where i can be 1, 2 or 3 in the interval: t1 <= t <= t2 v xE`v,~`THEORYNET leah!rsb584@CSD1.MILW.WISC.EDU Problem: zeros of a function  such that: 0 <= (w[i] + t1 * v[i]) <= 1 for i equal to 1, 2 and 3 0 <= (w[i] + t2 * v[i]) <= 1 for i equal to 1, 2 and 3 Note: such an interval may not exist for a particular problem. Additional Requirements: The method needs to be as fast as possible and not be machine specific. The Big Picture: The above problem is special case of finding all of the intersections 2 or 3 in the interval: t1 <= t <= t2 v xE`v,~`THEORYNET leah!rsb584@CSD1.MILW.WISC.EDU Problem: zeros of a function  of a line (in parametric form) with a generalized super-ellipse of the form ABS(X) ^ (e[1]) + ABS(Y) ^ (e[2]) + ABS(Z) ^ (e[3]) = 1 The application for this is a ray-tracer intended to run on inexpensive computer systems such as the Amiga, Mac, PC-AT clones, etc. Raymond S. Brand rsbx@beowulf.uucp 3A Pinehurst Ave. rsb584@leah.albany.edu Albany NY 12203 FidoNet 1:141/255 (518-489-8968) (518)-482-8798 BBS: (518)-489-8986 v xE`v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is nIn article <8806271507.AA04350@jade.berkeley.edu> TheoryNet List , Vaughan Pratt writes: [Some introductory material omitted] >Definition. Let KC = {| Kolmog(W) <= n}, that is, the set of pairs > for which the Kolmogorov complexity of W is at most n. > >Theorem 1 (equivalent form). KC is not a recursive set (i.e. >membership in KC is undecidable). > >Theorem 2. KC is r.e. (i.e. membership in KC is partially decidable). > >Proof. To enumerate KC run all Turing machines in parallel, >initializing each to state q0 with blank tape. Whenever some machine M >halts, output where W is whatever M left on its tape. > >Conjecture 3. KC is not complete (= r.e.-complete). v! `v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is n^> >Prior to Friedberg-Muchnik (see Rogers) all known non-recursive r.e. >sets were complete. Even today the nonrecursiveness of an r.e. set is >almost invariably proved by showing that it is complete, witness the >"proof" that Jamie Andrews was rightly objecting to, which in effect >was inferring Theorem 1 from a "howler" proof of the negation of >Conjecture 3. Friedberg and Muchnik's independently discovered result >that there exist nonrecursive noncomplete r.e. sets still appears to be >reasonably deep. If Conjecture 3 holds then it implies >Friedberg-Muchnik and hence is at least as deep a result; furthermore >KC would then surely constitute the most natural example to date of >such a set. > > >I would be interested to hear from any experts in the area with >information about previous work on or statement of this conjecture. > v! `v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is n> Vaughan Pratt > Stanford University > Sun Microsystems > Triangle Concepts The set KC introduced by Pratt is indeeed a complete r.e. set. In what follows, I sketch a proof of this. This is analogous to a result in the Chaitin theory of the Kolmogorov complexity of strings; because an apparantly different notion of "Kolmogorov complexity" is used than that usually employed one can't immediately cite the Chaitin result. (For all I know, it is possible to argue that the new notion has the same formal properties as the Kolmogorov notion and directly cite the Chaitin result. Also, the result in question is probably due also to Kolmogorov or one of his students or disciples--Levin, Gac, etc.) Before beginning the proof proper, it is probably worth recalling the variant of Kolmogorov complexity being used. We are v! `v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is nassigning a complexity to each string s on the two element alphabet {0,1}. This Kolmogorov complexity is the least N such that there is a machine with at most N states which started in the standard initial conditions of empty tape and state q_0 will eventually halt with s on its output tape. All machines consider are 1-tape machines with a fixed working alphabet A (which may be larger than {0,1}. In thinking through the details of the proof presented below, I have assumed that A has at least two additional symbols, namely the blank symbol and a "comma". Let K be some standard complete r. e. set. We identify the non-negative integers with the strings on the two element alphabet {0,1} in some standard primitive recursive way. We shall assign to each non-negative integer x a Turing machine M_x such that the following holds: 1) x is a member of K iff M_x halts (started in the standard initial conditions of state q_0 scanning an empty tape). 2) Suppose that x is a member of K and that t is the time at v! `v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is nnwhich x is enumerated into K. Then the ouput of M_x is a string s such that if N is the number of states of M_x then no Turing machine M' with at most N states outputs s in at most t steps. 3) M_x can be computed from x by a primitive recursive function. 4) The length of the string s is given by some explicit primitive recursive function of M_x. Granted this construction, we may give the following algorithm that computes K from Pratt's KC: Given x. First compute M_x and its number of states N. Also, compute (as allowed by 4) the length of the string which will be ouput by M_x if it hallts at all. Call this length r. Now, using KC, we can determine the number of strings of length r whose Kolmogorov complexity as defined in Pratt's posting is at most N. Call this number s. Now run simultaneously all Turing machines with at most N ff M_x halts (started in the standard initial conditions of state q_0 scanning an empty tape). 2) Suppose that x is a member of K and that t is the time at v! `v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is nstates (starting in the standard initial conditions described above) until the least time t* when at least s distinct strings have been output of length r. The definition of s insures that this wait will terminate in a time t* rather than go on forever. Now see if x has been listed in K by time t*. If it hasn't, the properties of M_x insure that x is not in K. Thus we have described an algorithm for computing K from KC. It remains to construct M_x from x. We assume given a reasonable primitive recursive Godel numbering of our class of Turing machines. We shall employ a version of the recursion theorem with parameters for our class of Turing machines. This asserts that if f(x,e) is a partial recursive function, then there is a primitive recursive function which takes x into a Turing machine M_x such that M_x will halt (under the standard initial conditions) iff f(x,e) is defined where e is the Godel number of M_x. Moreover, if it does halt, the contents of its tape upon halting will be f(x,e). e time at v! `v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is n It remains to describe the function f(x,e). The function first waits till the time t when x enters the complete r.e. set K. If x is not in K, then the program will wait forever and f(x,e) will be undefined. It next computes from e the number of states, N, that M_x will have, and then the number of Turing machines with at most N states. It can then easily find a number r such that some string of length r will not have Kolmogorov complexity at most N. (The program simply chooses the least r such that 2*r is greater than the number of Turing machines with at most N states.) The program then runs all Turing machines with at most N states in parallel for at least t+1 steps. It looks for the lexicographically least string of length r which did not appear as the terminal output of any such machine, and writes this string as its output. This completes our sketch of the construction of M_x with the mber of M_x. Moreover, if it does halt, the contents of its tape upon halting will be f(x,e). e time at v! `v3m#@THEORYNET agate!frito!solovay@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU Re: Kolmogorov Complexity is nastated properties. As ever, Bob Solovay x enters the complete r.e. set K. If x is not in K, then the program will wait forever and f(x,e) will be undefined. It next computes from e the number of states, N, that M_x will have, and then the number of Turing machines with at most N states. It can then easily find a number r such that some string of length r will not have Kolmogorov complexity at most N. (The program simply chooses the least r such that 2*r is greater than the number of Turing machines with at most N states.) The program then runs all Turing machines with at most N states in parallel for at least t+1 steps. It looks for the lexicographically least string of length r which did not appear as the terminal output of any such machine, and writes this string as its output. This completes our sketch of the construction of M_x with the mber of M_x. Moreover, if it does halt, the contents of its tape upon halting will be f(x,e). e time at v! `v90THEORYNET terry@cs.jhu.edu>" " " " " " " " " " (A) Ph. D.'s who > (1) have written a significant paper in theoretical computer science > (in a refereed theoretical computer science journal or conference). > (2) regularly attend STOC/FOCS conferences. > (B) Advisor of a member of (A). > (C) Famous person from another field (computer science, mathematics, physics, > politics etc.) who has an ancestor who has a descendant in (A). > (D) All of the people whose inclusion links (C) to (A). Criterion (A)(2) has provoked some comment. Please note that it is NOT conjunctive with (A)(1); all of the above are disjunctive. Also, please note that it is NOT restricted to STOC/FOCS. Any theory conference will do. I apologize if I have inadvertantly alienated any member of the theory community. w8`xTHEORYNET ian%PSUVAXS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU TCS geneology  The volume of responses prevents me from acknowledging each one personally. I thank those who have already responded. I would be grateful if those who sent incomplete information about new entries (we need the adviser's name, the name of the university and date of graduation) could fill in the missing blanks (I have tried sending email to all concerned, but some of it got bounced for inexplicable reasons). Thanks, Ian. , mathematics, physics, > politics etc.) who has an ancestor who has a descendant in (A). > (D) All of the people whose inclusion links (C) to (A). Criterion (A)(2) has provoked some comment. Please note that it is NOT conjunctive with (A)(1); all of the above are disjunctive. Also, please note that it is NOT restricted to STOC/FOCS. Any theory conference will do. I apologize if I have inadvertantly alienated any member of the theory community. w8`xDTHEORYNET glc@LFCS.ED.AC.UK Logics in Computer Science Pro1 We have a small number of copies of the proceedings of the LICS Symposium held in Edinburgh 5-8 July this year. (436 pages) They are available for 20 pounds Sterling or 35 US dollars each, including airmail postage anywhere in the world. Requests, including payment should be sent to: Monika Lekuse Laboratory for Foundadtions of Computer Science Department of Computer Science University of Edinburgh The King's Buildings Edinburgh EH9 3JZ United Kingdom They will be issued on a first come first served basis. xu!axDTHEORYNET glc@LFCS.ED.AC.UK Logics in Computer Science Pro2 George Cleland Local Arrangements, LICS '88 ngs of the LICS Symposium held in Edinburgh 5-8 July this year. (436 pages) They are available for 20 pounds Sterling or 35 US dollars each, including airmail postage anywhere in the world. Requests, including payment should be sent to: Monika Lekuse Laboratory for Foundadtions of Computer Science Department of Computer Science University of Edinburgh The King's Buildings Edinburgh EH9 3JZ United Kingdom They will be issued on a first come first served basis. xu!a| ȋ@THEORYNET hull%pollux.usc.edu@OBERON.USC.EDU call for papers -- workshop on------------------------------------------------------------------------- Call for Papers Second International Workshop on Database Programming Languages June 4 - 7, 1989 on the Oregon coast The second International Workshop on Database Programming Languages will take place on the Oregon coast, from June 4 - 7, 1989. These dates immediately follow the ACM SIGMOD Intl. Conf. on Management of Data which is being held in Portland, Oregon, from May 31 to June 2. The workshop will continue in the directions and style of its predecessor, which was held in Roscoff, France, in September, 1987. The meeting will be small and informal, providing forums for both {{ M*| ȋ@THEORYNET hull%pollux.usc.edu@OBERON.USC.EDU call for papers -- workshop onprepared presentations and informal panels and discussions. Participation in the workshop is by invitation of the program committee, and will be restricted primarily to authors of accepted papers. The workshop will focus on the development of new programming languages and environments for databases and data-intensive applications. Topics include, but are not limited to: data models deductive capabilities types and type inference compilation inheritance versions persistence implementation issues object-oriented approaches applications Authors are invited to submit 9 copies of a technical summary of a prospective paper for the workshop by January 13, 1989 to either {{ M*| ȋ@THEORYNET hull%pollux.usc.edu@OBERON.USC.EDU call for papers -- workshop onj Richard Hull or Ron Morrison Computer Science Department Department of Computational Science University of Southern California University of St. Andrews Los Angeles, CA 90089-0782 St. Andrews KY16 8SX USA Scotland The focus of the workshop is on emerging approaches and technologies; the committee will consider papers describing preliminary as well as completed research. The technical summary should be brief and not exceed 10 double-spaced pages. Authors will be notified of the acceptance or rejection of their papers by March 10, 1989. Full versions of the accepted papers must be received in camera ready form by April 14, 1989. Workshop proceedings will be available at the workshop. Also, revised versions of the accepted papers will be published by Morgan-Kaufmann, {{ M*| ȋ@THEORYNET hull%pollux.usc.edu@OBERON.USC.EDU call for papers -- workshop on;Inc. Program Committee Co-Chairs Program Committee Richard Hull Antonio Albano (Universitadi Udine) +01 (213) 743-5501 Francois Bancilhon (INRIA/Altair) hull@cse.usc.edu Peter Buneman (Univ. of Pennsylvania) Ron Morrison Luca Cardelli (DEC) +44 334 76161 ext. 8121 Richard Hull (USC) ron\%uk.ac.st-and.cs@ukc Ron Morrison (Univ. of St. Andrews) David Stemple Craig Schaffert (DEC) +01 (413) 545-2372 Joachim Schmidt (Univ. Frankfurt) stemple@cs.umass.edu David Stemple (Univ. of Massachusetts) Local Arrangements David Maier Computer Science and Engineering Treasurer Oregon Graduate Center Dean Jacobs (USC) papers will be published by Morgan-Kaufmann, {{ M*| ȋ@THEORYNET hull%pollux.usc.edu@OBERON.USC.EDU call for papers -- workshop ony 19600 N.W. Von Neumann Drive Beaverton, OR 97006-1999 +01 (503) 690-1154 maier@ogcvax.ogc.edu o (Universitadi Udine) +01 (213) 743-5501 Francois Bancilhon (INRIA/Altair) hull@cse.usc.edu Peter Buneman (Univ. of Pennsylvania) Ron Morrison Luca Cardelli (DEC) +44 334 76161 ext. 8121 Richard Hull (USC) ron\%uk.ac.st-and.cs@ukc Ron Morrison (Univ. of St. Andrews) David Stemple Craig Schaffert (DEC) +01 (413) 545-2372 Joachim Schmidt (Univ. Frankfurt) stemple@cs.umass.edu David Stemple (Univ. of Massachusetts) Local Arrangements David Maier Computer Science and Engineering Treasurer Oregon Graduate Center Dean Jacobs (USC) papers will be published by Morgan-Kaufmann, {{ M*| |`THEORYNET pdm@DAIMI.DK Call for Papers: MFCS'89 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS Mathematical Foundations of Computer Science (MFCS) Fourteenth International Symposium August 28 -- September 1, 1989, Rytro, near Cracow, POLAND This international symposium is the fourteenth in the series of annual MFCS symposia organized alternately in Poland and Czechoslovakia. The symposium is being organized by the Institute of Informatics, University of Warsaw. The purpose of the meeting is to encourage research in theoretical computer science and to bring together specialists from various countries. {{{| |`THEORYNET pdm@DAIMI.DK Call for Papers: MFCS'89 Principal areas of interest: logics of programs, concurrency, deductive databases, software specification and validation, computational complexity. This is not intended to be an exhaustive list. The scientific program includes invited lectures covering areas of current interest, and submitted papers describing original research. INSTRUCTIONS FOR AUTHORS: Authors are invited to submit five copies of a full draft paper or extended abstract in English before JANUARY 15, 1989, to the Chairman of the Program Committee: Grazyna Mirkowska MFCS'89 Institute of Informatics University of Warsaw 00--901 Warsaw, PKiN Poland {{{| |`THEORYNET pdm@DAIMI.DK Call for Papers: MFCS'89  tel. ++48-22-268-258, telex 815591 infuw pl Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by APRIL 1, 1989. Deadline for final text: MAY 15, 1989 Please use the attached Reply Card as preliminary information to the organizers and return it at your earliest convenience. The number of participants is limited. Program Committee: A. Arnold (Bordeaux), J. de Bakker (Amsterdam), A. Blikle (Warsaw), P. van Emde Boas (Amsterdam), A. P. Ershov (Novosibirsk), J. Gruska (Bratislava), H. Langmaack (Kiel), A. Maggiolo-Schettini (Pisa), G. Mirkowska (Warsaw), P. Mosses (Aarhus), M. Protasi (Roma), A. Salwicki (Warsaw), and others yet to be confirmed. Organizing Committee: K. Diks, M. Grabowski, A. Kreczmar, G. Mirkowska, {{{| |`THEORYNET pdm@DAIMI.DK Call for Papers: MFCS'89 A. Szalas. Address of Conference Bureau: Institute of Informatics University of Warsaw 00--901 Warsaw, PKiN box 1210 POLAND - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - REPLY CARD MFCS'89 Name __________________________________________________ Ms/Mr Address __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ aack (Kiel), A. Maggiolo-Schettini (Pisa), G. Mirkowska (Warsaw), P. Mosses (Aarhus), M. Protasi (Roma), A. Salwicki (Warsaw), and others yet to be confirmed. Organizing Committee: K. Diks, M. Grabowski, A. Kreczmar, G. Mirkowska, {{{| |`THEORYNET pdm@DAIMI.DK Call for Papers: MFCS'89  __________________________________________________ Yes No ( ) ( ) I wish to attend the symposium. Please send me further details and the registration form. ( ) ( ) I wish to submit a paper. Provisional title/subject: _____________________________________________________ I expect to be accompanied by ___ persons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Peter Mosses pdm@daimi.DK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Computer Science Department * Aarhus University * Aarhus * Denmark ] nd others yet to be confirmed. Organizing Committee: K. Diks, M. Grabowski, A. Kreczmar, G. Mirkowska, {{{| |`THEORYNET pdm@DAIMI.DK Call for Papers: MFCS'89 H---------------------------------------------------------------------- ) ( ) I wish to attend the symposium. Please send me further details and the registration form. ( ) ( ) I wish to submit a paper. Provisional title/subject: _____________________________________________________ I expect to be accompanied by ___ persons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Peter Mosses pdm@daimi.DK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Computer Science Department * Aarhus University * Aarhus * Denmark ] nd others yet to be confirmed. Organizing Committee: K. Diks, M. Grabowski, A. Kreczmar, G. Mirkowska, {{{}D@ THEORYNET ajl@IDA.LIU.SE International Symposium on Opt------------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS --------------- International Symposium on OPTIMAL ALGORITHMS May 29-June 2, 1989 Varna, Bulgaria The International Symposium on optimal algorithms which is organized by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences is intended to provide a forum for researchers in the area of the design and analysis of algorithms. The symposium will be held in Varna, a nice resort at the Black Sea. Papers presenting original research in areas related to algorithmic theory are being sought. Suggested areas include: },']}D@ THEORYNET ajl@IDA.LIU.SE International Symposium on Opt graph algorithms sorting data structures computational geometry parallel numerical and combinatorial algorithms systolic arrays complexity Contributors are invited to submit 3 copies of a two-page camera- ready abstract to: Prof. B. Sendov (International Symposium on Optimal Algorithms) Center of Informatics and Computer Technology Acad. G. Bonchev str. bl. 25-A Sofia 1113, BULGARIA (Phone +359-2 708494, tlx. 22056 KZIIT-BG) ers in the area of the design and analysis of algorithms. The symposium will be held in Varna, a nice resort at the Black Sea. Papers presenting original research in areas related to algorithmic theory are being sought. Suggested areas include: },']}D@ THEORYNET ajl@IDA.LIU.SE International Symposium on Opt Abstracts must arrive before February 15, 1989. Notification about acceptance will be mailed by April 15, 1989. A collection of the accepted abstracts will be available at the symposium and official proceedings of refereed full length papers will be published afterwards. INVITED SPEAKERS (list not exhaustive): F. Dehne (Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada) J. Gilbert (Cornell University, Ithaca, USA) A. Lingas (Linkoping University, Linkoping, Sweden) J. Miklosko (Slovak Academy of Sciences, Bratislava, Czechoslovakia) J. Reif (Duke University, Durham, USA) A. Rosenberg (University of Massachusetts, Amherst, USA) V. Voevodin (Academy of Sciences of USSR, Moscow, USSR) ORGANIZING COMMITTEE },']}D@ THEORYNET ajl@IDA.LIU.SE International Symposium on Opt B. Sendov (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences), Chairman B. Bojanov (University of Sofia) H. Djidjev (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences) R. Lazarov (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences) ------- icial proceedings of refereed full length papers will be published afterwards. INVITED SPEAKERS (list not exhaustive): F. Dehne (Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada) J. Gilbert (Cornell University, Ithaca, USA) A. Lingas (Linkoping University, Linkoping, Sweden) J. Miklosko (Slovak Academy of Sciences, Bratislava, Czechoslovakia) J. Reif (Duke University, Durham, USA) A. Rosenberg (University of Massachusetts, Amherst, USA) V. Voevodin (Academy of Sciences of USSR, Moscow, USSR) ORGANIZING COMMITTEE },'].=@THEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU Theory Net archives The server for Theory Net is now connected to the internet. This means that archives of Theory Net are available for FTP. All of the archives have names like THEORYNT.LOGyymm where yy is the last two digits of the year and mm is the ordinal of the month. The FTP userid is ANONYMOUS with password of GUEST. The directory the archives reside is called LISTARCH. Victor ~~΀.ܢjTHEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU Theorynet archives and FTP I should have given the internet name of the host for archives, it is VM1.NODAK.EDU. So to get archives do: FTP VM1.NODAK.EDU USERID ANONYMOUS PASSWORD GUEST CD LISTARCH GET THEORYNT.LOG8808 (for example -- this would get august 1988 archives). ~f>y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference  ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS TENTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON APPLICATION AND THEORY OF PETRI NETS Wednesday 28 - Friday 30, June 1989 and PETRI NETS TUTORIAL Monday 26 - Tuesday 27, June 1989 BONN, FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY The Tenth Annual International Petri Net Conference will be organized by the Gesellschaft fuer Mathematik und Datenverarbeitung (GMD), njh^@y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference the German National Research Center for Computer Science. Papers presenting original contributions in any area of applications and theory of Petri nets are sought. The language of the conference is English. TOPICS System design and verification using nets. Causality/partial order theory of concurrency. Analysis and synthesis, structure and behaviour of nets. Net-based semantical, logical and algebraic calculi. Higher-level net models. Timed and stochastic nets. Relationships between net theory and other approaches. Symbolic net representations (graphical, textual, ...). Computer tools. Experience with using nets, case studies. Educational issues. njh^@y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference  Applications of nets to: Office automation, Flexible manufacturing systems, Programming languages, Protocols and interfaces, Hardware structures, Real-time systems, Performance evaluation, Operations research, Embedded systems. The conference takes place under the auspices of: AFCET SIG 'Systemes Paralleles et Distribues' and CNRS-C3, AICA, BCS SIG 'Formal Aspects of Computing Science', EATCS and GI SIG 'Petri Nets and Related System Models'. astic nets. Relationships between net theory and other approaches. Symbolic net representations (graphical, textual, ...). Computer tools. Experience with using nets, case studies. Educational issues. njh^@y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference s PAPERS Authors are invited to submit an extended abstract (approx. 10 pages) or a full draft paper (at most 30 pages). The title page must contain a short abstract and a classification of the topics covered, preferrably using the list of topics above. The paper or extended abstract must clearly state the problem being addressed, the goal of the work, the results achieved and the relation to other work. TOOLS, POSTERS AND PROJECTS The conference will also comprise: An exhibition of computer tools for nets. Scheduled periods are set aside during the tutorial and conference for tool demonstrations. sing nets, case studies. Educational issues. njh^@y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference OAn exhibition of posters describing theoretical and practical results. Posters are displayed throughout the conference with a scheduled period for discussing them. Authors must submit a one page description of their poster. Short presentations of projects where nets are put into practice. This section of the conference allows the presentation of experiences of using nets in ongoing or completed projects. The presentation may be supplemented by a brief report in the proceedings. Authors must submit a 2 to 4 page outline of the project. SUBMISSIONS All four kinds of submissions (10 copies) must be received by the chairman of the program committee no later than January 15, 1989. Authors should clearly indicate the kind(s) of submission intended. Authors will be notified of acceptance/rejection by April 1, 1989. Final njh^@y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference papers are due by May 15, 1989. The page limit will be 20 pages for papers and 10 pages for project presentations. TUTORIAL The tutorial will concentrate on the basic notions and fundamental concepts from the broad spectrum of Petri nets. PROGRAM COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN Prof. Giorgio De Michelis Universit'a degli Studi di Milano Dipartimento di Scienze dell'Informazione Via Moretto da Brescia, 9 I-20133 Milano, Italy ORGANIZING COMMITTEE CHAIRMEN port in the proceedings. Authors must submit a 2 to 4 page outline of the project. SUBMISSIONS All four kinds of submissions (10 copies) must be received by the chairman of the program committee no later than January 15, 1989. Authors should clearly indicate the kind(s) of submission intended. Authors will be notified of acceptance/rejection by April 1, 1989. Final njh^@y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference S Dr. W. Reisig, Dr. Klaus Voss Gesellschaft fuer Mathematik und Datenverarbeitung, GMD-F1.P Postfach 12 40 D-5205 Sankt Augustin 1, FRG PROGRAM COMMITTEE G.F. Balbo, Italy E. Best, FRG J. Billington, Australia W. Brauer, FRG Ph. Chretienne, France S. Kodama, Japan M. Lindqvist, Finland G. De Michelis, Italy (chairman) o Dipartimento di Scienze dell'Informazione Via Moretto da Brescia, 9 I-20133 Milano, Italy ORGANIZING COMMITTEE CHAIRMEN port in the proceedings. Authors must submit a 2 to 4 page outline of the project. SUBMISSIONS All four kinds of submissions (10 copies) must be received by the chairman of the program committee no later than January 15, 1989. Authors should clearly indicate the kind(s) of submission intended. Authors will be notified of acceptance/rejection by April 1, 1989. Final njh^@y֠THEORYNET mcvax!unido!gmdzi!eike@UUNET.UU.NET 10th International Conference T. Murata, USA M. Nielsen, Denmark G. Rozenberg, The Netherlands M. Silva, Spain D. Simpson, Great Britain P. Starke, GDR R. Valette, France --------------------------------------------------------------------- a W. Brauer, FRG Ph. Chretienne, France S. Kodama, Japan M. Lindqvist, Finland G. De Michelis, Italy (chairman) o Dipartimento di Scienze dell'Informazione Via Moretto da Brescia, 9 I-20133 Milano, Italy ORGANIZING COMMITTEE CHAIRMEN port in the proceedings. Authors must submit a 2 to 4 page outline of the project. SUBMISSIONS All four kinds of submissions (10 copies) must be received by the chairman of the program committee no later than January 15, 1989. Authors should clearly indicate the kind(s) of submission intended. Authors will be notified of acceptance/rejection by April 1, 1989. Final njh^@1 THEORYNET rcoda%koel.co.rmit.oz.au@RELAY.CS.NET 2 Dim bin packing [Can anyone please provide me with a small, recent list of references on the 2 dimensional bin packing problem and solutions? Thanks Dr David Abramson ACSnet: rcoda@koel.co UUCP: ...!uunet!munnari!koel.co.rmit.oz!rcoda CSNET: rcoda@koel.co.rmit.oz ARPA: rcoda%koel.co.rmit.oz@uunet.uu.net BITNET: rcoda%koel.co.rmit.oz@CSNET-RELAY PHONE: + 61 3 660 2095 Commonwealth Scientific and Research Organisation, Division of Information Technology, c/o Department of Communication & Electronic Engineering, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, P.O. Box 2476V, פB1 THEORYNET rcoda%koel.co.rmit.oz.au@RELAY.CS.NET 2 Dim bin packing (Latrobe St, Melbourne, 3000, Australia l, recent list of references on the 2 dimensional bin packing problem and solutions? Thanks Dr David Abramson ACSnet: rcoda@koel.co UUCP: ...!uunet!munnari!koel.co.rmit.oz!rcoda CSNET: rcoda@koel.co.rmit.oz ARPA: rcoda%koel.co.rmit.oz@uunet.uu.net BITNET: rcoda%koel.co.rmit.oz@CSNET-RELAY PHONE: + 61 3 660 2095 Commonwealth Scientific and Research Organisation, Division of Information Technology, c/o Department of Communication & Electronic Engineering, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, P.O. Box 2476V, פBӇ5THEORYNET cherlin@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU MAMLS conference at Rutgers on Sept. 17 MAMLS conference in Room 705 Hill Center, Busch Campus Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ. 9:00- 9:30 Coffee 9:30-10:30 Shelah A Jonsson algebra on aleph-w+1 is easy *10:40-11:40 Gurevich Deterministic vs. Nondeterministic Linear Time *11:50-12:50 Immerman On the number of variables needed to describe graphs Lunch Break 2:30- 3:30 Hrushovski Some pseudoplane constructions 3:40- 4:40 Macintyre Transfer principles for integral closures NmӇ5THEORYNET cherlin@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU MAMLS conference at Rutgers onq Dinner: We will need a count on the number interested in dining at La Charcuterie in the Princeton Shopping Center. The main course runs $15-$20 and a full meal can easily run $35. Party at the Cherlins' at 9P.M. 85 Clearview Ave., Princeton, Near the Harrison St. Shopping Center. Tel: 609 921-9205 There is some room for overnight guests at the Cherlins' and at Simon Thomas' house (tel. (609) 771-8316). Sheraton Hotel, Centennial off Rte. 18, West of Busch Campus. Tel. (201) 469-5700. $55 Rutgers rate Directions. Route 1 or Turnpike (exit 9) to New Brunswick, Route 18 West across Raritan River to Metlar's Lane (straight ahead after the bridge), up Metlar's Lane to Brett Road (2nd NmӇ5THEORYNET cherlin@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU MAMLS conference at Rutgers on left) and wind around to Hill Center Parking Lot. Future meetings: Baruch College, NYC Dec. 3 Univ. Penn., Phila. Mar. 4 The Greater Boston Logic Meeting, in April. Cherlins' at 9P.M. 85 Clearview Ave., Princeton, Near the Harrison St. Shopping Center. Tel: 609 921-9205 There is some room for overnight guests at the Cherlins' and at Simon Thomas' house (tel. (609) 771-8316). Sheraton Hotel, Centennial off Rte. 18, West of Busch Campus. Tel. (201) 469-5700. $55 Rutgers rate Directions. Route 1 or Turnpike (exit 9) to New Brunswick, Route 18 West across Raritan River to Metlar's Lane (straight ahead after the bridge), up Metlar's Lane to Brett Road (2nd Nm.ɒTHEORYNET schmidt@KSUVAX1.CIS.KSU.EDU Call for Papers -- Mathematica)CALL FOR PAPERS Fifth Workshop on the Mathematical Foundations of Programming Semantics Tulane University New Orleans, Louisiana March 29 - April 1, 1989 The workshop is the fifth in a series that is dedicated towards bringing together computer scientists and mathematicians for discussion of problems and directions in programming language semantics. Computer scientists gain exposure to relevant mathematical ideas, and mathematicians learn about mathematics-related applications and problems in the programming semantics area. 6.ɒTHEORYNET schmidt@KSUVAX1.CIS.KSU.EDU Call for Papers -- MathematicaThe invited speakers are: Samson Abramsky, Imperial College Luca Cardelli, DEC Systems Research Center Peter Freyd, University of Pennsylvania Peter Johnstone, Cambridge University John Reynolds, Carnegie-Mellon University Papers are solicited on the following topics: (1) Order-theoretic, topological and categorical approaches to semantics (2) Formal and descriptive aspects of semantics notations (3) The role of semantics in programming language design and analysis (4) Application of semantics and related topics (e.g., polymorphism) to the design and implementation of compilers and interpreters. This list is not exhaustive, and papers in related areas that fit with the intentions of the workshop are welcome. 6.ɒTHEORYNET schmidt@KSUVAX1.CIS.KSU.EDU Call for Papers -- MathematicaAn author may submit a paper by mailing 4 copies of a preliminary version to either of the program committee chairmen: David Schmidt Austin Melton Computing and Info. Sciences Dept. Datalogisk Institut Kansas State University Copenhagen University Manhattan, KS 66506 Universitetsparken 1 913-532-6350 DK-2100 Copenhagen 0 Internet:schmidt@cis.ksu.edu DENMARK Bitnet:schmidt@ksuvax1 Internet:austin@diku.dk The preliminary version is limited to a length of 12 double spaced, typed pages. The deadline for submission of the preliminary version is November 15, 1988. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by February 10, 1989. In keeping with the spirit of the workshop, the final version of an accepted paper will not be required for the workshop's proceedings until May 10, 1989. 6.ɒTHEORYNET schmidt@KSUVAX1.CIS.KSU.EDU Call for Papers -- Mathematica The proceedings of the first and third workshops in this series are volumes 239 and 298 in Springer-Verlag's Lecture Notes in Computer Science, and it is expected that the proceedings from this workshop will also appear in LNCS. The program committee consists of: Boumediene Belkhouche, Tulane University Stephen Brookes, Carnegie-Mellon University Carl Gunter, University of Pennsylvania Jimmie Lawson, Louisiana State University Michael Main, University of Colorado Michael Mislove, Tulane University Frank Oles, IBM Yorktown George Revesz, IBM Yorktown Teodor Rus, University of Iowa Robert Tennent, Queen's University minary version is November 15, 1988. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by February 10, 1989. In keeping with the spirit of the workshop, the final version of an accepted paper will not be required for the workshop's proceedings until May 10, 1989. 6.ɒTHEORYNET schmidt@KSUVAX1.CIS.KSU.EDU Call for Papers -- Mathematica Eric Wagner, IBM Yorktown Further information regarding the workshop may be obtained from the general chairmen: Michael Mislove Michael Main Mathematics Department Computer Science Dept., CB430 Tulane University University of Colorado New Orleans, LA 70118 Boulder, CO 80309 504-865-5727 303-492-7579 Bitnet: MT05AMF@TCSMUSA Internet: main@boulder.colorado.edu The local arrangements chairman is: Boumediene Belkhouche Computer Science Department Tulane University dor Rus, University of Iowa Robert Tennent, Queen's University minary version is November 15, 1988. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by February 10, 1989. In keeping with the spirit of the workshop, the final version of an accepted paper will not be required for the workshop's proceedings until May 10, 1989. 6.ɒTHEORYNET schmidt@KSUVAX1.CIS.KSU.EDU Call for Papers -- Mathematica New Orleans, LA 70118 504-865-5840 CSNET: bb@tulane.edu A final program, listing the accepted papers, schedule, and accommodation information, will be available from the chairmen approximately February 15, 1989. ., CB430 Tulane University University of Colorado New Orleans, LA 70118 Boulder, CO 80309 504-865-5727 303-492-7579 Bitnet: MT05AMF@TCSMUSA Internet: main@boulder.colorado.edu The local arrangements chairman is: Boumediene Belkhouche Computer Science Department Tulane University dor Rus, University of Iowa Robert Tennent, Queen's University minary version is November 15, 1988. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by February 10, 1989. In keeping with the spirit of the workshop, the final version of an accepted paper will not be required for the workshop's proceedings until May 10, 1989. 6^ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TIDES ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 18:14:56 GMT From: ut-emx!ethan@cs.utexas.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) Article-I.D.: <5831@ut-emx.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1127@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1127@sri-arpa.ARPA>, JPOULIN%BOWDOIN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU writes: > From: > > Earlier, I asked how the moon causes the tides. I know perfectly well > that the reason is gravity blah, blah, blah... However, I should have > been more specific by asking why there are two tidal cycles per day > since the earth rotates once per day. > I'll field this one. I've certainly addressed it often enough in Astro 301. P`^ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TIDES  The basic point is that tidal forces are due to *differences* in the gravitational attraction felt at two different points. If you stand underneath the moon then you are closer to it than most of the earth and feel a stronger gravitational attraction to it than most of the earth does. If you are on the opposite side of the earth than you feel less of an attraction to the moon than most of the earth does. In the first case, the net result is that the surface of a fluid is deformed toward the moon. In the second case it is deformed away from the moon. In both cases the fluid moves away from the center of the earth producing a high tide. Therefore there are two high tides a day. The surface of the earth is not similarly deformed because it is a solid and cannot respond to forces of this size that change on such a short time scale. In real life the situation is complicated by the finite response P`^ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TIDES time of the oceans to the tidal forces as well as by local geography. > These cycles are very close to 12 hours in duration and this cannot be > attributed to the moon which spends half its time between the earth] > and sun. When the moon is aligned with the sun, why isn't high tide > at noon and low tide at midnight? > Tidal forces fall off as the inverse cube of the distance (since they go as the local derivative of gravitational forces). Therefore the influence of the sun on the tides, while considerable, is not nearly as large as the moon's influence. Exceptionally high (and low) tides are produced when the moon and the sun are aligned. > Perhaps this is an arcanely basic question, but they say the only stupid > questions are the ones never asked. not respond to forces of this size that change on such a short time scale. In real life the situation is complicated by the finite response P`^ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TIDES N They're right. (Whoever "they" may be! :-)) -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU -------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 88 05:31:31 GMT From: mailrus!iuvax!pur-ee!pur-phy!clt@Rutgers.EDU (Carrick Talmadge) Article-I.D.: <1396@pur-phy> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1127@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5831@ut-emx.UUCP> lly high (and low) tides are produced when the moon and the sun are aligned. > Perhaps this is an arcanely basic question, but they say the only stupid > questions are the ones never asked. not respond to forces of this size that change on such a short time scale. In real life the situation is complicated by the finite response P`^ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TIDES ^In article <5831@ut-emx.UUCP> ethan@ut-emx.UUCP (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) writes: >Tidal forces fall off as the inverse cube of the distance (since >they go as the local derivative of gravitational forces). Therefore >the influence of the sun on the tides, while considerable, is not >nearly as large as the moon's influence. Actually, an amusing observation that (I believe) someone made on the net back in '86 was that if you explictly write out the tidal contribution due to a radially symmetric body, to lowest order you get: tidal force ~ M/r^3 ~ rho R^3/r^3 ~ rho theta^3 where "~" means "goes as" [i.e, dropping constants of proportionality in each term], M = mass of the body, r = distance to the Earth, average rho = density of the body, R = radius of the body, and theta = angle body subtends in the sky as seen from the Earth. In real life the situation is complicated by the finite response P`^ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TIDES ~ Now, for the Moon we have R = 1.74e3 km and r = 3.84e5 km, and since theta = 2 R/r in radians, we have theta = 31 minutes of arc for the Moon. For the Sun, R= 6.96e5 km, r = 1.5e8 km, and we have theta = 32 minutes of arc for the Sun. The reason the tidal effect due to the Moon is larger than that due to the Sun is then simply a statement of the fact that the density of the Moon is 3.34 gm/cm^3, whereas the density of the Sun is only 1.41 gm/cm^3. As a side note, the original poster also commented that the central region of the Andromeda galaxy is of a similar angular size as the Moon, so that were the Andromeda galaxy to have the same average density as the Moon's, its tidal effect on the Earth would also be the same. Of course, its gravitational acceleration would be maybe a trillion times stronger than that due to the Moon, but that is another matter. :-) complicated by the finite response P`^ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TIDES zCarrick Talmadge ARPA: clt@newton.physics.purdue.edu UUCP: ..!pur-ee!pur-phy!clt -------------------------------- es of arc for the Moon. For the Sun, R= 6.96e5 km, r = 1.5e8 km, and we have theta = 32 minutes of arc for the Sun. The reason the tidal effect due to the Moon is larger than that due to the Sun is then simply a statement of the fact that the density of the Moon is 3.34 gm/cm^3, whereas the density of the Sun is only 1.41 gm/cm^3. As a side note, the original poster also commented that the central region of the Andromeda galaxy is of a similar angular size as the Moon, so that were the Andromeda galaxy to have the same average density as the Moon's, its tidal effect on the Earth would also be the same. Of course, its gravitational acceleration would be maybe a trillion times stronger than that due to the Moon, but that is another matter. :-) complicated by the finite response P`֏PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 20:03:17 GMT From: zody@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU Article-I.D.: <16880@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3307@homxc.UUCP> <15900025@bucc2> <7864@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> The important thing to remember about the rolled up dimensions in string theory is that they are _really_ tiny. Because reality is apparently described by quantum mechanics, when you deal with these tiny dimensions, you have to consider the wavefunction of the particle you are imagining. When a particle "goes around" a curled up dimension, its wave function must be single valued. This means that the particle has to form standing waves which have a wavelength which is a multiple of the circumference of the cylinder. Quantum says that the energy of a particle is h-bar*c over its wavelength, and hence to have an excitation in one of these tiny dimensions, a particle would have to have a huge amount of energy. In fact, the energy is on the order of the planck ŷv֏PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl_mass which is 10^19 GeV. (By comparison, the SSC, if built will opperate at a mere 20 x 10^3 GeV.) In other words, the "tiny" dimensions are "frozen out", exactly as diatomic molecules have a specific heat which is characteristic of monoatomic gasses near absolute zero... I hope this helps. I'm not a string theorist, but I am a 4th year grad student in particle theory who is surrounded by them all the time. :-) Charles Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu -------------------------------- , its wave function must be single valued. This means that the particle has to form standing waves which have a wavelength which is a multiple of the circumference of the cylinder. Quantum says that the energy of a particle is h-bar*c over its wavelength, and hence to have an excitation in one of these tiny dimensions, a particle would have to have a huge amount of energy. In fact, the energy is on the order of the planck ŷv@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tides; Re: fifth force ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 22:20:45 GMT From: gatech!purdue!decwrl!labrea!hanauma!rick@Rutgers.EDU (Richard Ottolini) Article-I.D.: <23438@labrea.Stanford.EDU> There are certainly solid earth tides. It is the most important correction you have to make when you are doing a gravity survey. -------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 88 19:27:38 GMT From: loci@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (loci!clb) Article-I.D.: <5456@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <23438@labrea.Stanford.EDU> In article <23438@labrea.Stanford.EDU>, rick@hanauma (Richard Ottolini) writes: ɍ@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tides; Re: fifth force > > There are certainly solid earth tides. It is the most important correction > you have to make when you are doing a gravity survey. As I recall, the shape of the Earth is changed by tides, the size of the effect being a foot or two deviation from "normal". It's easy to see why when you consider that the vast majority of the Earth's volume is fluid with a thin, damp crust. The Moon, having solidified throughout, can't deform as gracefully and tides cause quakes as the solids shift around in response to the tidal "forces". -- CLBrunow - KA5SOF Loci Products, POB 833846-131, Richardson, Texas 75083 ɍ@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tides; Re: fifth force ] clb@loci.uucp, loci@killer.uucp, loci@csccat.uucp -------------------------------- to make when you are doing a gravity survey. As I recall, the shape of the Earth is changed by tides, the size of the effect being a foot or two deviation from "normal". It's easy to see why when you consider that the vast majority of the Earth's volume is fluid with a thin, damp crust. The Moon, having solidified throughout, can't deform as gracefully and tides cause quakes as the solids shift around in response to the tidal "forces". -- CLBrunow - KA5SOF Loci Products, POB 833846-131, Richardson, Texas 75083 ɍ0t PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/02/88 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 88 00:40:37 GMT From: swalton@gryphon.CTS.COM (Steven Walton) Article-I.D.: <6357@gryphon.CTS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12073@steinmetz.ge.com> In the referenced article, the question is raised, "Why does it matter that the Hubble Space Telescope is delayed? Won't the universe wait a bit?" Well, yes, but consider: (1) It is certain that parts of HST have a finite life, and are aging while it sits on the ground; time on earth subtracts from useful life in orbit. (2) The closer launch gets to the next solar maximum in 1991, the higher the likelihood that HST will have a very premature re-entry L0t PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/02/88  unless a second shuttle flight is used to boost it up. (3) It has been six years since the last launch of a US astronomy spacecraft--hardly a record which inspires bright young people to get involved with space or astronomy. The HST delay is a symptom, really. I think the US, via its elected representatives in Washington, DC, has decided to cede leadership in space to Japan and Western Europe and the USSR. I predict a major drain of American space scientists to these other places within 5 years; yes, even to the USSR if perestroika and glasnost hold up. -- Stephen Walton, hanging out until my USENET feed at work is back up. swalton@solar.stanford.edu -------------------------------- L0t PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/02/88 bDate: 9 Sep 88 14:32:25 GMT From: oconnor@nuke.steinmetz (Dennis M. O'Connor) Article-I.D.: <12109@steinmetz.ge.com> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12073@steinmetz.ge.com> An article by wyant@eplrx7.UUCP (Pat Wyant) says: ] As I recall, there are two problems with the delay of any major launch. ] One is the storage costs associated with the device. This telescope ] must be stored in an "almost ready to launch" condition for many months. ] That means money is being spent without any of the intended returns. This is also true of all those military and spy sats that are also waiting. I seem to have heard that the new KH-12 series of spysats is essentially the HST with a different sensor suite. If true, then whether the HST or KH-12 go up first is "revenue-nuetral". Except, of course, the KH-12 budget is "black" : i.e. classified. L0t PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/02/88 ] A second problem with a delay is that the scientists and engineers ] involved are not getting any younger. While it may be true that the ] crowd or species is all that matters in the long run, to the individuals ] involved there is little consolation for missing this opportunity through ] no fault of their own. ] Patrick Wyant It's not their money. Lots of people, billions in fact, miss oportunities because someone else isn't willing to pay their way. I don't grieve for them. That's how it must be. The goverment's thinking probably runs like this: Given the choice of flying a KH-12 ( which is a Shuttle-Only payload, I think ) or the HST, well, the stars will be about the same next year. That's not true of the military-political situation. -- Dennis O'Connor oconnor%sungod@steinmetz.UUCP ARPA: OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa L0t PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/02/88 k "Never confuse USENET with something that matters, like PIZZA." -------------------------------- ger. While it may be true that the ] crowd or species is all that matters in the long run, to the individuals ] involved there is little consolation for missing this opportunity through ] no fault of their own. ] Patrick Wyant It's not their money. Lots of people, billions in fact, miss oportunities because someone else isn't willing to pay their way. I don't grieve for them. That's how it must be. The goverment's thinking probably runs like this: Given the choice of flying a KH-12 ( which is a Shuttle-Only payload, I think ) or the HST, well, the stars will be about the same next year. That's not true of the military-political situation. -- Dennis O'Connor oconnor%sungod@steinmetz.UUCP ARPA: OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa L]@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM MagnetoHydroDynamic Electricit---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 20:48:08 GMT From: uwvax!umn-d-ub!umn-cs!ns!logajan@Rutgers.EDU (John Logajan x3118) Article-I.D.: <815@ns.UUCP> I recall reading somewhere, a few years ago, that magnetohydrodynamic electric power generators suffered from plasma/contact-surface deterioration. MHD works, as I understand it, by shooting the high temperature (ergo ionized) gasses of combustion (you know, a flame) through a magnetic field. Electrically conducting surfaces at right angles to both the flame travel, and magnetic field lines, capture the ions caused to move by the flame and directed by the magnet. Positive ions are bent to one surface, while negative ions are bent to the other surface -- generating a charge and therefore electrical power. It is this flame to surface contact that is the major problem with MHD reliability and lifespan. (Or so I understand.) ?j]@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM MagnetoHydroDynamic Electricit However, isn't it possible to conduct electricity without direct contact? I also recall seeing that gasses in a sealed glass shell could be made to illuminate simply by placing the tube between plates of an RF activated capacitor. Couldn't the magnetic field of the MHD be RF modulated so that the electrical power could be tapped by a capacitive, indirect method. Wouldn't this solve the erosion problem? Power would come out as RF AC, but it could easily be rectified to DC. Is anyone doing this in MHD systems? -- - John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - - {...rutgers!dayton, ...amdahl!ems, ...uunet!rosevax!mmm} !viper!ns!logajan - -------------------------------- s are bent to the other surface -- generating a charge and therefore electrical power. It is this flame to surface contact that is the major problem with MHD reliability and lifespan. (Or so I understand.) ?j<`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine %---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 21:58:43 GMT From: unisoft!gethen!abostick@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Alan Bostick) Article-I.D.: <1201@gethen.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> In article <657@eplrx7.UUCP> wyant@eplrx7.UUCP (Pat Wyant) writes: # # However, this PR article was also responsible for forcing the PR editorial #board to reiterate their policy against publishing papers which are, even in #principle, unverifiable (an experiment could not be constructed to test the #theory). . . . #The cover sheet of a later issue of PR, about #a year after the rotating cylinder article, strongly stated PR's policy against #accepting papers for publication which could not be experimentally tested. # طm.<`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine cI suspect that this policy is honored more in the breach than in the observance. How many papers on heterotic string "theory" have been appearing in Phys Rev D. in recent years? 8-) Alan Bostick ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!abostick -------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 88 21:50:13 GMT From: robiner@ganelon.usc.edu (Steve) Article-I.D.: <12076@oberon.USC.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> In article <657@eplrx7.UUCP> wyant@eplrx7.UUCP (Pat Wyant) writes: >In article <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, chernoff@cartan.berkeley.edu writes: >> f a later issue of PR, about #a year after the rotating cylinder article, strongly stated PR's policy against #accepting papers for publication which could not be experimentally tested. # طm.<`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine >> In 1974 Frank J. Tipler published a paper, "Rotating cylinders >> and the possibility of global causality violation" (Phys. Rev. D, >> vol 9, 2203-2206),... >principle, unverifiable (an experiment could not be constructed to test the >theory). As I recall, this rotating cylinder had to be infinite in extent Can someone tell me why the cylinder has to be infinite. Also, how fast does it have to be rotating, and why should it's rotational velocity matter? =Steve= -------------------------------- Date: 10 Sep 88 13:59:22 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> rotating cylinder article, strongly stated PR's policy against #accepting papers for publication which could not be experimentally tested. # طm.<`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> <1201@gethen.UUCP> In article <1201@gethen.UUCP>, abostick@gethen (Alan Bostick) writes: >In article <657@eplrx7.UUCP> wyant@eplrx7.UUCP (Pat Wyant) writes: ># However, this PR article was also responsible for forcing the PR >#editorial board to reiterate their policy against publishing papers >#which are, even in principle, unverifiable. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I suspect that this policy is honored more in the breach than in the >observance. Probably. > How many papers on heterotic string "theory" have been >appearing in Phys Rev D. in recent years? 8-) cylinder article, strongly stated PR's policy against #accepting papers for publication which could not be experimentally tested. # طm.<`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine These are--in principle--testable. They predict new particles with masses around 1e19 ev. More difficult to analyze, but much easier to do, is studying squarks and photinos. This is one of the goals for the SSC. Shadow matter, if it exists, is very easy to detect--in principle. Just get out your gravitometers when your space ship passes by a shadow matter neutron star, and you'll see it loud and clear. Infinite rotating cylinders are not testable--even in principle. Some parts of inflationary theory are not testable--even in principle. Then again, Guth's paper on creating universes in your own backyard appeared in SCIENCE. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 ...those infected with the superstring syndrome have to believe in miracles: # طm.<`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine not the minor ones like the parting of the Red Sea, but major ones in which six of the ten space-time dimensions become compactified to the Planck scale. -------------------------------- the goals for the SSC. Shadow matter, if it exists, is very easy to detect--in principle. Just get out your gravitometers when your space ship passes by a shadow matter neutron star, and you'll see it loud and clear. Infinite rotating cylinders are not testable--even in principle. Some parts of inflationary theory are not testable--even in principle. Then again, Guth's paper on creating universes in your own backyard appeared in SCIENCE. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 ...those infected with the superstring syndrome have to believe in miracles: # طm.PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 07:51:00 GMT From: bucc2!spock@a.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <15900026@bucc2> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1121@sri-arpa.ARPA> >I've always heard that the moon causes the tides. Would someone >explain how it does this? Since I had know formal study in this area.... Rumor has it that the gravity of the moon pulls on the surface of the earth facing the moon. Since liquid (ie water [ie ocean]) is affected more by this effect (more than say... solids (ie earth, ground, etc.), there tends to be a bulge on the surface of the water facing the moon and as this approaches land, VOILA! high tide. Low tide when the moon is on the opposite side of the Earth... ܉jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides v Please excuse any errors... This is what J.P. Rumor told me.... ----- Joe Christensen Season your words with {attmail,cepu,noao,uiucdcs}!bradley!bucc2!spock the salt of kindness... Someday YOU may have to (but does it SOUND feasible?) eat them... ...and what if I AM a physics major? -------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 88 16:25:00 GMT From: carroll@s.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <218000001@s.cs.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1121@sri-arpa.ARPA> the moon and as this approaches land, VOILA! high tide. Low tide when the moon is on the opposite side of the Earth... ܉jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides  Allright. I've had a little physics, so here's what I've been told. 'Tide' is a term used to measure the rate of change of gravity. If you think of gravity as a field, tide is how fast the field strength changes per unit length. If you think of gravity as a space time bending, tide is how fast the 'slope' of space changes. If you treat gravity as a number 'g' which measures the acceleration, tide is dg/dl. Ok. An object in a uniform gravity field (tide=0), free to move, is in an intertial reference frame, and is the same as a non-acclerating frame. I.e., you couldn't tell there was gravity except by looking at other things. If the gravity field is non-uniform (which is true for most places), then tide is not 0, and it appears as a force trying to pull you apart (because gravity is pulling on different parts of you with different forces, and you percieve the *difference* of these forces). Ok. ܉jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides The gravity field of the Moon is non-uniform on the scale of an Earth sized object. Therefore the Earth sees a 'tide' from the Moon's gravity. This trys to pull the Earth apart on a line from Moon to Earth. Since water is less rigid than rock (easy to verify experimentally), it reacts more and is pulled away from the center of the Earth *on both sides*! So tides are (about) 12 hours apart (less because the moon moves a non- trivial amount in 12 hours). I hope this makes sense. Incidentally, this shifting of the bulges (as Earth rotates) takes energy (work). Where does it come from? The rotation of Earth. This is the effect that is slowing the spin of the Earth down. It is the same effect that locked the Moon in a spin rate that *keeps the bulges in the same place*, i.e. same side always facing Earth. This condition is called (ready?) 'tidal locking'. -------------------------------- ). Ok. ܉jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides Date: 10 Sep 88 02:44:55 GMT From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) Article-I.D.: <7884@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1121@sri-arpa.ARPA> <15900026@bucc2> Quoted from "Science Made Stupid" by Tom Weller (c) 1985. Winner of the Hugo award: We sometimes speak of tides causing the oceans to rise and fall. Of course, this is a fallacy. Actually, it is the land that rises and falls. As the Earth rotates, the moon's gravitational attraction is greatest first on one side, then the other. Land masses, being rigid, are pulled up or down accordingly. Oceans, being liquid, are free to flow back to their normal level. the Earth down. It is the same effect that locked the Moon in a spin rate that *keeps the bulges in the same place*, i.e. same side always facing Earth. This condition is called (ready?) 'tidal locking'. -------------------------------- ). Ok. ܉jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides I hope this settles the question and we can get back to talking about mercury filled speaker wire. David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Flowers -- Just say NO!!" - Mighty Mouse -------------------------------- s speak of tides causing the oceans to rise and fall. Of course, this is a fallacy. Actually, it is the land that rises and falls. As the Earth rotates, the moon's gravitational attraction is greatest first on one side, then the other. Land masses, being rigid, are pulled up or down accordingly. Oceans, being liquid, are free to flow back to their normal level. the Earth down. It is the same effect that locked the Moon in a spin rate that *keeps the bulges in the same place*, i.e. same side always facing Earth. This condition is called (ready?) 'tidal locking'. -------------------------------- ). Ok. ܉j`ۀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tidal "forces"? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 88 23:03:57 GMT From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith) Article-I.D.: <14090@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <23438@labrea.Stanford.EDU> <5456@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> In article <5456@killer.DALLAS.TX.US>, loci@killer (loci!clb) writes: > The Moon, having solidified throughout, can't deform as gracefully > and tides cause quakes as the solids shift around in response > to the tidal "forces". Why the quote marks around "forces"? Aren't tides about as good an example as one could ask? I would think from a GR point of view on might be inclined (if a little gonzo) to put quotes around gravitational "force" and centrifugal "force" and what ^e`ۀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tidal "forces"? #not, and leave tides alone, since one can see locally test particles diverge because of tidal "force". -- ucbvax!garnet!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 "Without NNTP, the brahms gang itself would be impossible" Erik E. Fair -------------------------------- ler.DALLAS.TX.US>, loci@killer (loci!clb) writes: > The Moon, having solidified throughout, can't deform as gracefully > and tides cause quakes as the solids shift around in response > to the tidal "forces". Why the quote marks around "forces"? Aren't tides about as good an example as one could ask? I would think from a GR point of view on might be inclined (if a little gonzo) to put quotes around gravitational "force" and centrifugal "force" and what ^e PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 F---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Sep 88 06:57:49 GMT From: mailrus!iuvax!pur-ee!pur-phy!piner@Rutgers.EDU (Richard Piner) Article-I.D.: <1401@pur-phy> Posted: Fri Sep 9, 1988 2:50 PM EDT Msg: KGII-3156-3046 From: RPARK To: WHATSNEW WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 9 September 1988 Washington, DC 1. DO THE PARTY PLATFORMS ADDRESS SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ISSUES? Yes, but comparisons are difficult since the 104-page Republican platform is more detailed than its 8-page Democratic counterpart. g+ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 o ENERGY POLICY - Both platforms call for clean coal technology, conservation, and increased use of methanol and ethanol. The Democrats contend the country "could reduce its reliance on nuclear power" with these measures. The Republicans anticipate the "expansion of safe nuclear power" to meet future needs. o RESEARCH - The Democrats stress the need for "a greater commitment to civilian research and development," while the Republicans warn that "defense research and development must be maintained at a level commensurate with the Reagan-Bush years." The Republicans, however, specifically endorse increased funding for the NSF, retooling of university laboratories, and the SSC. o SPACE - The Republicans support everything--including space station, aerospace plane, a replacement shuttle, a new launch vehicle and a manned flight to Mars--oh, yes, and a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution and no new taxes. The g+ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 Democratic platform is totally silent on the question of space. o EDUCATION - The Democrats commit themselves to "the principle that no one should be denied the opportunity to attend college for financial reasons," while the Republican platform promises "to challenge college administrators to exercise more fiscal responsibility." The Republicans offer a big list of small promises, such as protecting the Pledge of Allegiance in schools. o ENVIRONMENT - No real differences here. Both sides stress the need for international agreements to deal with such problems as the greenhouse effect and depletion of the ozone layer. o DEFENSE - The major area of disagreement. The Republicans pledge not to "compromise plans for the research, testing, or the rapid and certain deployment of SDI," and oppose any nuclear test ban. The Democrats charge that dubious new weapons are wasting ent to the Constitution and no new taxes. The g+ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 money and call for a ban on all chemical and space weapons, as well as a moratorium on both missile and nuclear weapons testing. 2. THE US MAY HAVE VIOLATED THE 1974 THRESHOLD TEST BAN TREATY, while the Soviets watched. An 18 Aug test, with Soviet observers on hand, was intended to demonstrate new, more accurate sensors which are located near the detonation. The new sensors indicated that the blast exceeded the 150kt limit by a few percent, while according to more distant seismic monitors, which the US insists are unreliable, it was just below the limit. It was embarrassing in light of official claims of Soviet violations--claims that were not supported by a recent OTA study (WN 10 Jun 88). Robert L. Park (202) 232-0189 The American Physical Society loyment of SDI," and oppose any nuclear test ban. The Democrats charge that dubious new weapons are wasting ent to the Constitution and no new taxes. The g+ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 "-------------------------------- emical and space weapons, as well as a moratorium on both missile and nuclear weapons testing. 2. THE US MAY HAVE VIOLATED THE 1974 THRESHOLD TEST BAN TREATY, while the Soviets watched. An 18 Aug test, with Soviet observers on hand, was intended to demonstrate new, more accurate sensors which are located near the detonation. The new sensors indicated that the blast exceeded the 150kt limit by a few percent, while according to more distant seismic monitors, which the US insists are unreliable, it was just below the limit. It was embarrassing in light of official claims of Soviet violations--claims that were not supported by a recent OTA study (WN 10 Jun 88). Robert L. Park (202) 232-0189 The American Physical Society loyment of SDI," and oppose any nuclear test ban. The Democrats charge that dubious new weapons are wasting ent to the Constitution and no new taxes. The g+"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  AIList Digest Monday, 12 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 81 Announcements: Call for papers: SCAI'89 IEEE CVPR 1989 Call for Papers Interacting with Computers - Call for papers Intelligent CAD: Call for Papers Congress on Cybernetics and Systems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Aug 88 10:07:04 GMT From: mcvax!enea!tut!ks@uunet.uu.net (Kari Syst{) Subject: Call for papers: SCAI'89 f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 M SCAI'89 THE SECOND SCANDINAVIAN CONFERENCE ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE 1989 June 13-15, 1989 Tampere, Finland 1st Announcement and Call for Papers The Conference is organized by the Finnish, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish artificial Intelligence Societies and Tampere University of Technology. On behalf of these, the Organization Committee has the pleasure to cordially invite everyone interested in AI and related topics to participate in SCAI'89. TECHNICAL PROGRAM f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 The program of the Conference will contain invited and contributed papers in plenary and parallel sessions, workshops and an exhibition. CONTRIBUTIONS INVITED Contributed papers in the following fields of AI are welcome: 1. Logic and AI theory 2. Knowledge representation and inference methods 3. Knowledge based systems 4. Natural Language and speech 5. AI-tools and environments Prospective authors of papers are invited to return the attached form together with an extended abstract of their proposed paper. Abstracts of the papers should be submitted to the SCAI'89 Secretariat, and are due by October 31, f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 1988. ABSTRACTS The abstracts should be informative rather than descriptive and the text should not exceed three pages. MANUSCRIPTS Acceptance of papers will be notified to the authors by December 31, 1988, together with full requirements and typing instructions for the manuscripts. Final manuscripts will have to be submitted for publication not later than March 31, 1989. nments Prospective authors of papers are invited to return the attached form together with an extended abstract of their proposed paper. Abstracts of the papers should be submitted to the SCAI'89 Secretariat, and are due by October 31, f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 PROCEEDINGS The written papers will be published in the SCAI'89 Proceedings which will be distributed to the participants at registration. WORKSHOPS It has been planned that a workshop titled "Medical Expert Systems" will be arranged in connection with the Conference. Proposals for other workshop topics are kindly requested to be sent the SCAI'89 Secretariat before October 31, 1988. EXHIBITION An exhibition of AI-tools and literature will be held during the Conference. xtended abstract of their proposed paper. Abstracts of the papers should be submitted to the SCAI'89 Secretariat, and are due by October 31, f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 All enquires should be directed to the SCAI'89 Secreteriat. SCAI'89 SECRETERIAT All correspondence should be directed to: scai89@tut.fi or: SCAI'89 Tampere University of Technology Ms Raili Siekkinen P.O.BOX 527 SF-33101 Tampere Finland Proposals for other workshop topics are kindly requested to be sent the SCAI'89 Secretariat before October 31, 1988. EXHIBITION An exhibition of AI-tools and literature will be held during the Conference. xtended abstract of their proposed paper. Abstracts of the papers should be submitted to the SCAI'89 Secretariat, and are due by October 31, f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  Phone Int +358 31 162441 Telex 22313 Telefax +358 31 162907 DEADLINES Abstracts of papers submitted: October 31, 1988 Acceptance of papers notified: December 31, 1988 2nd Announcement available: January 31, 1989 Manuscripts of papers submitted: March 31, 1989 Registration with reduced fee: March 31, 1989 Hotel reservation: March 31, 1989 Please fill the following questionnaire in and send it to will be held during the Conference. xtended abstract of their proposed paper. Abstracts of the papers should be submitted to the SCAI'89 Secretariat, and are due by October 31, f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 SCAI'89 Secreteriat before October 31, 1988. You may send it either by electronic or ordinary mail. ================================================================== PRELIMINARY PARTICIPATION QUESTIONNAIRE (please fill in) I wish to receive the 2nd announcement (If more than one copy, quantity indicated) ( ) I plan to participate in SCAI'89 ( ) I plan to present a paper at the Conference ( ) (title and abstract enclosed) My paper concerns the topic: osed paper. Abstracts of the papers should be submitted to the SCAI'89 Secretariat, and are due by October 31, f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  1. Logic and AI theory ( ) 2. Knowledge representation and inference methods ( ) 3. Knowledge based systems ( ) 4. Natural Language and speech ( ) 5. AI-tools and environments ( ) I will attend the workshop on Medical Expert Systems ( ) I like to propose a workshop " " to be arranged as a part of the Conference (Detailed proposal enclosed) My organization is interested in taking part in the exhibition, please contact me ( ) f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 $ name ----------------------------------------------------- company/institution -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- address -------------------------------------------------- ( ) I will attend the workshop on Medical Expert Systems ( ) I like to propose a workshop " " to be arranged as a part of the Conference (Detailed proposal enclosed) My organization is interested in taking part in the exhibition, please contact me ( ) f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 ! --------------------------------------------------------- phone ---------------------------------------------------- telefax -------------------------------------------------- electronic mail ------------------------------------------ - ( ) I will attend the workshop on Medical Expert Systems ( ) I like to propose a workshop " " to be arranged as a part of the Conference (Detailed proposal enclosed) My organization is interested in taking part in the exhibition, please contact me ( ) f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 ]-- Kari Systa ks@tut.fi (ks@tut.UUCP, ..!mcvax!tut!ks, ks@fintut.bitnet) Tampere Univ. Technology/Computer Systems Laboratory Phone Po. Box. 527, SF-33101 Tampere work: +358 31 162585 Finland home: +358 31 177412 ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 88 23:02:18 GMT From: mailrus!uflorida!haven!uvaarpa!virginia!uvacs!wnm@rutgers.edu (Worthy N. Martin) Subject: IEEE CVPR 1989 Call for Papers CALL FOR PAPERS IEEE Computer Society Conference on, please contact me ( ) f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  on COMPUTER VISION AND PATTERN RECOGNITION Sheraton Grand Hotel San Diego, California June 4-8, 1989. General Chair Professor Rama Chellappa Department of EE-Systems University of Southern California Los Angeles, California 90089-0272 (Worthy N. Martin) Subject: IEEE CVPR 1989 Call for Papers CALL FOR PAPERS IEEE Computer Society Conference on, please contact me ( ) f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  Program Co-Chairs Professor Worthy Martin Professor John Kender Dept. of Computer Science Dept. of Computer Science Thornton Hall Columbia University University of Virginia New York, New York 10027 Charlottesville, Virginia 22901 Program Committee Charles Brown John Jarvis Gerard Medioni Larry Davis Avi Kak Theo Pavlidis Arthur Hansen Rangaswamy Kashyap Alex Pentland Robert Haralick Joseph Kearney Roger Tsai Ellen Hildreth Daryl Lawton John Tsotsos ( ) f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 Anil Jain Martin Levine John Webb Ramesh Jain David Lowe Submission of Papers Four copies of complete drafts, not exceeding 25 double spaced typed pages should be sent to Worthy Martin at the address given above by November 16, 1988 (THIS IS A HARD DEADLINE). All reviewers and authors will be anonymous for the review process. The cover page will be removed for the review process. The cover page must contain the title, authors' names, primary author's address and telephone number, and index terms containing at least one of the below topics. The second page of the draft should contain the title and an abstract of about 250 words. Authors will be f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 vnotified of notified of acceptance by February 1, 1989 and final camera-ready papers, typed on special forms, will be required by March 8, 1989. Submission of Video Tapes As a new feature there will be one or two sessions where the authors can present their work using video tapes only. For information regarding the submission of video tapes for review purposes, please contact John Kender at the address above. Conference Topics Include: -- Image Processing -- Pattern Recognition -- 3-D Representation and Recognition -- Motion elow topics. The second page of the draft should contain the title and an abstract of about 250 words. Authors will be f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  -- Stereo -- Visual Navigation -- Shape from _____ (Shading, Contour, ...) -- Vision Systems and Architectures -- Applications of Computer Vision -- AI in Computer Vision -- Robust Statistical Methods in Computer Vision Dates November 16, 1988 -- Papers submitted February 1, 1989 -- Authors informed March 8, 1989 -- Camera-ready manuscripts to IEEE June 4-8, 1989 -- Conference -- Pattern Recognition -- 3-D Representation and Recognition -- Motion elow topics. The second page of the draft should contain the title and an abstract of about 250 words. Authors will be f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 88 17:32:37 BST From: mdw%informatics.rutherford.ac.uk@NSS.Cs.Ucl.AC.UK Subject: Interacting with Computers - Call for papers INTERACTING WITH COMPUTERS - CALL FOR PAPERS The Interdisciplinary Journal of Human-Computer Interaction INTERACTING WITH COMPUTERS will provide a new international forum for communication about HCI issues betwen academia and industry. It will allow information to be disseminated in a form accessible to all HCI practitioners, not just to academic researchers. This new journal is produced in conjunction with the BCS Human-Computer Interaction Specialist Group. Its aim is to stimulate ideas and provoke widespread discussion with a forward-looking perspective. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 A dialogue will be built up between theorists, researchers and human factors engineers in academia, industry and commerce thus fostering interdisciplinary dependencies. The journal will initially appear three times a year. The first issue of INTERACTING WITH COMPUTERS will be published in March 1989. Each issue will contain a large number of fully refereed papers presented in a form and style suitable for the widest possible audience. All long papers will carry an executive summary for those who would ot read the paper in full. Papers may be of any length but content will be substantial. Short applications-directed papers from industrial contributors are actively encouraged. Every paper will be refereed not only by appropriate peers but also by experts outside the area of specialisation. It is intended to support a continuing commentary on published papers by referees and journal readers. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  COVERAGE o Systems and dialogue design o Evaluation techniques o User interface design, tools and methods o Empirical evaluations o User features and user modelling o new research paradigms o Design theory, process and methodology o State-of-the-art reviews o Organisational and social issues o Intelligent systems o Training and education applications o Emerging technologies PAPER TYPES he widest possible audience. All long papers will carry an executive summary for those who would ot read the paper in full. Papers may be of any length but content will be substantial. Short applications-directed papers from industrial contributors are actively encouraged. Every paper will be refereed not only by appropriate peers but also by experts outside the area of specialisation. It is intended to support a continuing commentary on published papers by referees and journal readers. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  The editorial board of INTERACTING WITH COMPUTERS wish to publish papers in all areas of HCI. To ensure the desired breadth of coverage it has created three Special Editorial Boards (SEBs) in: o Computer science o Human sciences o Applications A wide range of paper types are encouraged. The overriding concern is that papers should contribute to advancing the field of HCI. All papers should be of a high standard and should be concerned with wider applications in addition to intellectual rigour. Papers should take an interdisciplinary approach to HCI and should address the journal's anticipated diverse readership. Some initial paper types are: t also by experts outside the area of specialisation. It is intended to support a continuing commentary on published papers by referees and journal readers. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 o State of the art reviews on any aspect of HCI o Reports on theoretical research, highlighting practice and context o Brief papers covering technical work-in-progress o Experience with industrially-based applications o Discussion of evaluation issues and findings READERSHIP o HCI professionals o Computer and social scientists o Industry practitioners o Systems, software and interface designers o Human factors engineers CALL FOR PAPERS of HCI. All papers should be of a high standard and should be concerned with wider applications in addition to intellectual rigour. Papers should take an interdisciplinary approach to HCI and should address the journal's anticipated diverse readership. Some initial paper types are: t also by experts outside the area of specialisation. It is intended to support a continuing commentary on published papers by referees and journal readers. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 b We invite papers addressing problems and issues in HCI in such a way that the contents are accessible to readers from all contributing disciplines. Theoretically-orientated papers should attempt to demonstrate the relevance of theory to practice and applications-orientated papers are strongly encouraged. The language of the journal is English but the publishers are experienced in assisting authors whose first language is not English. Authors are encouraged to adopt a clear and accessible style. All papers will be fully and appropriately refereed with respect to content and paper type. Authors should submit six copies of their manuscript, typed on one side only and in double-line spacing to the address below. An explanatory document, "Guidance for Authors", is also available from this address: General Editorial and Management Board, entary on published papers by referees and journal readers. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 `INTERACTING WITH COMPUTERS, Butterworth Scientific, P O Box 63, Westbury House, Bury Street, Guildford, Surrey GU2 5BH, United Kingdom. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 88 15:11:44 GMT From: mcvax!pauljan@uunet.uu.net (Paul Veerkamp) Subject: Intelligent CAD: Call for Papers Call for Papers but the publishers are experienced in assisting authors whose first language is not English. Authors are encouraged to adopt a clear and accessible style. All papers will be fully and appropriately refereed with respect to content and paper type. Authors should submit six copies of their manuscript, typed on one side only and in double-line spacing to the address below. An explanatory document, "Guidance for Authors", is also available from this address: General Editorial and Management Board, entary on published papers by referees and journal readers. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 ; Third Eurographics Workshop on INTELLIGENT CAD SYSTEMS "Practical Experience and Evaluation" April 3-7, 1989 Hotel Opduin, Texel, The Netherlands AIM AND SCOPE: This is the third workshop in a series of three Eurographics Workshops on Intelligent CAD Systems which have the following topics 1. 1987: Theoretical and Methodological Aspects 2. 1988: Implementational Issues 3. 1989: PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE AND EVALUATION spect to content and paper type. Authors should submit six copies of their manuscript, typed on one side only and in double-line spacing to the address below. An explanatory document, "Guidance for Authors", is also available from this address: General Editorial and Management Board, entary on published papers by referees and journal readers. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 Applying knowledge engineering to CAD has during the last decade become a major area of research, known as Intelligent CAD. The scope of this workshop includes (but is not limited to): - Experiments with intelligent CAD systems. - The role of intelligent CAD systems in industrial design. - Acquisition and maintenance of design expertise. - Software engineering for implementations of intelligent CAD systems. - User interfaces for intelligent CAD systems. - Knowledge representation languages for design. - Integration of application software (finite elements, qualitative physics, etc.) to intelligent CAD systems. The proceedings of the workshop will be published by Springer-Verlag in the EurographicSeminar Books series. The record of the first workshop has already been published by Springer-Verlag and the volume covering the second workshop should be out before December, 1988. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  DEADLINES: - Nov. 1, 1988 Deadline for extended abstracts. - Jan. 15, 1989 Notification of acceptance. - March 15, 1989 Submission of full papers. - April 3-7, 1989 Workshop. - May 15, 1989 Deadline for final manuscripts. - Dec. 1, 1989 Springer-Verlag third volume in book shops. ABSTRACTS: We are planning to accept 20 papers and we shall limit the total number of participants to 50. Please submit 3 copies of a single-spaced extended abstract of at LEAST 1000 and at MOST 3000 words (not counting figures and references) on A4 sheets before November 1, 1988 to the workshop secretary: Ms. Marja Hegt, ICAD WS #3 e workshop will be published by Springer-Verlag in the EurographicSeminar Books series. The record of the first workshop has already been published by Springer-Verlag and the volume covering the second workshop should be out before December, 1988. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science (CWI) Kruislaan 413, 1098 SJ Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel. +31-20-592-4058, Fax +31-20-592-4199, E-mail marja@cwi.nl.uucp Submission by electronic mail is encouraged as long as the author sends the additional material (e.g. figures) in time. The abstract should include: title of the contribution, author's name, adress (phone, fax, e-mail information is very useful), main text and figures, and references. If you are interested only in participating (but not in presenting a paper), then you are still required to submit an abstract which should take the form of a position paper explaining how you regard the issues of intelligent CAD. We are not planning to admit applicants who have not submitted an extended abstract (or as explained, a position paper). WORKSHOP FEE: 1100 Dutch Guilders. This price includes accommodation, food, and uld be out before December, 1988. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 a special excursion. The workshop starts on April 3rd (Monday) with dinner and ends on April 7th (Friday) after lunch. The fee for an accompanying non-participating person is 750. ORGANISATION: This conference is organised by the Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science (CWI). The co-chairmen are: - P.J.W. ten Hagen (CWI, The Netherlands), and - P.J. Veerkamp (CWI, The Netherlands). PROGRAMME COMMITTEE: A. Agogino (Univ. of California - Berkeley, USA), V. Akman (Bilkent Univ., Turkey), F. Arbab (Univ. of Southern California, USA), P. Bernus (Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Hungary), A. Bijl (Univ. of Edinburgh, Scotland), J. Encarnacao (TH Darmstadt, West Germany), not submitted an extended abstract (or as explained, a position paper). WORKSHOP FEE: 1100 Dutch Guilders. This price includes accommodation, food, and uld be out before December, 1988. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81  T. Kjellberg (Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden), G. Kramer (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research Center, USA), M. Mac an Airchinnigh (Univ. of Dublin, Ireland), K. MacCallum (Univ. of Strathclyde, UK), S. Murthy (IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center, USA), G. Joubert (Philips Eindhoven Research Center, The Netherlands), D. Sriram (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, USA), W. Strasser (Univ. of Tuebingen, West Germany), T. Takala (Technical Univ. of Helsinki, Finland), F. Tolman (TNO, The Netherlands), T. Tomiyama (Univ. of Tokyo, Japan), and J. Treur (Univ. of Amsterdam, The Netherlands). ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 88 20:12:00 GMT From: spnhc@cunyvm.bitnet s explained, a position paper). WORKSHOP FEE: 1100 Dutch Guilders. This price includes accommodation, food, and uld be out before December, 1988. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 6Subject: Congress on Cybernetics and Systems WORLD ORGANIZATION OF SYSTEMS AND CYBERNETICS 8 T H I N T E R N A T I O N A L C O N G R E S S O F C Y B E R N E T I C S A N D S Y S T E M S to be held June 11-15, 1990 at Hunter College City University of New York New York, U.S.A. This triennial conference is supported by many international . Tolman (TNO, The Netherlands), T. Tomiyama (Univ. of Tokyo, Japan), and J. Treur (Univ. of Amsterdam, The Netherlands). ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 88 20:12:00 GMT From: spnhc@cunyvm.bitnet s explained, a position paper). WORKSHOP FEE: 1100 Dutch Guilders. This price includes accommodation, food, and uld be out before December, 1988. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 rgroups concerned with management, the sciences, computers, and technology systems. The 1990 Congress is the eighth in a series, previous events having been held in London (1969), Oxford (1972), Bucharest (1975), Amsterdam (1978), Mexico City (1981), Paris (1984) and London (1987). The Congress will provide a forum for the presentation and discussion of current research. Several specialized sections will focus on computer science, artificial intelligence, cognitive science, psychocybernetics and sociocybernetics. Suggestions for other relevant topics are welcome. Participants who wish to organize a symposium or a section, are requested to submit a proposal ( sponsor, subject, potencial participants, very short abstracts ) as soon as possible, but not later than September 1989. All submissions and correspondence ice includes accommodation, food, and uld be out before December, 1988. f"@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #81 regarding this conference should be addressd to: Prof. Constantin V. Negoita Congress Chairman Department of Computer Science Hunter College City University of New York 695 Park Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10021 U.S.A. ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** sections will focus on computer science, artificial intelligence, cognitive science, psychocybernetics and sociocybernetics. Suggestions for other relevant topics are welcome. Participants who wish to organize a symposium or a section, are requested to submit a proposal ( sponsor, subject, potencial participants, very short abstracts ) as soon as possible, but not later than September 1989. All submissions and correspondence ice includes accommodation, food, and uld be out before December, 1988. fba POLYMERP mcmanus%COMPOSITE.STANFORD.EDU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU MSUBSCRIBE POLYMERP Hugh L. McManus (mcmanus%composite@score.stanford.edu) %L,?&_`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Two-Slit Interference Experime(---------------------------------------------------------------- Posted-From: The MITRE Corp., Bedford, MA Date: Sat, 10 Sep 88 20:50:58 EDT From: James R. Van Zandt > All this talk about double-split made me think about the old 2-slit > experiments with electron beams. For a good discussion on the interpretation of QM, I suggest you look at "The transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics" by John G. Cramer in Reviews of Modern Physics v 58 n 3 (Jul 86). He published an article on the same subject at about the same time in Analog. I found them about equally readable (which is to say, I got a LOT more out of them than the usual RMP article). Here is Cramer's abstract: "The interpretational problems of quantum mechanics are considered. G5?&_`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Two-Slit Interference Experime The way in which the standard Cpoenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics deals with these problems is reviewed. A new interpretation of the formalism of quantum mechanics, the _transactional interpretation_, is presented. The basic element of this interpretation is the _transaction_ describing a quantum event as an exchange of advanced and retarded waves, as implied by the work of Wheeler and Feynman, Dirac, and others. The transactional interpretation is explicitly nonlocal and thereby consistent with recent tests of the Bell inequality, yet is relativistically invariant and fully causal. A detailed comparison of the transactional and Copenhagen interpreations is made in the context of well-known quantum-mechanical _Gedankenexperimente_ and "paradoxes". The transactional interpretation permits quantum-mechanical wave functions to be interpreted as real waves physically present in space rather than as "mathematical representations of knowledge" as in the Copenhagen interpretation. The transactional interpretation is shown to provide insight into G5?&_`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Two-Slit Interference Experime the complex character of the quantum-mechanical state vector and the mechanism associated with its "collapse". It also leads in a natural way to justification of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the Borne probabiulity law (P = phi phi*), basic elements of the Copenhagen interpretation." - Jim Van Zandt -------------------------------- work of Wheeler and Feynman, Dirac, and others. The transactional interpretation is explicitly nonlocal and thereby consistent with recent tests of the Bell inequality, yet is relativistically invariant and fully causal. A detailed comparison of the transactional and Copenhagen interpreations is made in the context of well-known quantum-mechanical _Gedankenexperimente_ and "paradoxes". The transactional interpretation permits quantum-mechanical wave functions to be interpreted as real waves physically present in space rather than as "mathematical representations of knowledge" as in the Copenhagen interpretation. The transactional interpretation is shown to provide insight into G5CG΀PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Sep 88 03:06:59 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14127@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> <1201@gethen.UUCP> <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In article <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, I wrote: >[String theories] predict new particles with masses around 1e19 ev. 1e19 Gev. I repeat, 1e19 GIGA-ev. Sorry about that... ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 -------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 88 06:54:31 GMT INנCG΀PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine From: ucsd!ucsdhub!esosun!cogen!celerity!dave@ames.arc.nasa.gov (David L. Smith) Article-I.D.: <169@celerity.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> <1201@gethen.UUCP> <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> Silly question: Suppose one were to make a very large torus out of elastic super-stuff and set it up so that it spun. Not the torus, but rather the cross-section cylinder. Would this qualify as an infinitely long cylinder, or does it have to be straight? -------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 88 17:10:30 GMT From: bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) Article-I.D.: <1007@buengc.BU.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> <1201@gethen.UUCP> <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <169@celerity.UUCP> INנCG΀PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine \ In article <169@celerity.UUCP> dave@celerity.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: >Silly question: Suppose one were to make a very large torus out of elastic >super-stuff and set it up so that it spun. Not the torus, but rather the >cross-section cylinder. Would this qualify as an infinitely long cylinder, >or does it have to be straight? This would be roughly analogous to saying that a ring of current has the same E and H fields as an infinite, straight wire... Very roughly. --Blair "I'd have to dig up my Modren Fisics book to say exactly how roughly..." ghton) Article-I.D.: <1007@buengc.BU.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> <1201@gethen.UUCP> <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <169@celerity.UUCP> INנCG΀PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine $ -------------------------------- e@celerity.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: >Silly question: Suppose one were to make a very large torus out of elastic >super-stuff and set it up so that it spun. Not the torus, but rather the >cross-section cylinder. Would this qualify as an infinitely long cylinder, >or does it have to be straight? This would be roughly analogous to saying that a ring of current has the same E and H fields as an infinite, straight wire... Very roughly. --Blair "I'd have to dig up my Modren Fisics book to say exactly how roughly..." ghton) Article-I.D.: <1007@buengc.BU.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> <1201@gethen.UUCP> <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <169@celerity.UUCP> INנFPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Mathematica Information... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Sep 88 22:57:00 GMT From: math%wri.com@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700008@m.cs.uiuc.edu> From: math%wri.com@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Mathematica Information... -------------------------------- Date: 10 Sep 88 23:00:00 GMT From: math%wri.com@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700009@m.cs.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700008@m.cs.uiuc.edu> L_d`FPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Mathematica Information... .From: math%wri.com@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Mathematica Information... Stephen Wolfram has posted some up-to-date information about Mathematica for Macintoshes, Suns and other machines on comp.newprod. (Mail responses to math%wri.com@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu) -------------------------------- 88 23:00:00 GMT From: math%wri.com@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700009@m.cs.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700008@m.cs.uiuc.edu> L_d`I_A@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Sep 88 21:19:02 GMT From: mit-eddie!uw-beaver!tektronix!percival!bucket!leonard@Rutgers.EDU (Leonard Erickson) Article-I.D.: <1050@bucket.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3307@homxc.UUCP> <15900025@bucc2> In article <15900025@bucc2> spock@bucc2.UUCP writes: In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1368@pur-phy> If if costs $15Million for storage (and additional exposure to mishap in storage), then I would be a little impatient too. Seems like we shouldn't have to delay everything until all military missions are complete. It would be nice to slip it in the middle somewhere. James Wyatt @ UUCP:decvax!microsoft!trsvax!jim KA5VJL -------------------------------- MH{ N1 PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES o---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Sep 88 07:39 PDT From: dekleer.pa@Xerox.COM Cc: dekleer.PA@Xerox.COM Line-Fold: no I find the explanations offered so far intuitively unsatisfying. For example, The basic point is that tidal forces are due to *differences* in the gravitational attraction felt at two different points. If you stand underneath the moon then you are closer to it than most of the earth and feel a stronger gravitational attraction to it than most of the earth does. If you are on the opposite side of the earth than you feel less of an attraction to the moon than most of the earth does. In the first case, the net result is that the surface of a fluid is deformed toward the moon. In the second case it is deformed away from the moon. In both cases the fluid moves O.aN1 PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES  away from the center of the earth producing a high tide. Therefore there are two high tides a day. The surface This is intuitively incomplete. Suppose for some reason we had a tractor beam which fixed the centers of the earth and moon. In this case the water further away from the moon feels less gravitational attraction than the rigid earth, but this WOULD NOT result in a bulge away from the moon. Indeed there would only be one bulge facing the moon. Just draw the force vectors on a piece of water (assume constant depth on a spherical rigid earth). Just qualitatively, every piece of water except the infinitesmal column precisely away from the moon has a tangential component towards the face facing the moon. The point I am making is that no account of the tides could be accurate without taking into account of the fact that the earth is constantly accelerating --- i.e., the earth-moon system rotates around a common (bary-) center. Personally, I mind it much more satisfying to think of O.aN1 PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES the centripetal pseudo-force --- namely it is the centripetal force which is maximum on the earth's face away from the moon which causes water to move there. It also explains why the earth does'nt fall into the moon --- gravity and centripetal forces exactly balance at the earth's center. The water just moves until the forces balance --- the differing heights of water produce the differential pressure gradient which exactly cancels the gradient produced by the difference in gravity and centrepetal forces. Of course, the system never really can reach this equilibrium because (I guess) water moves to slow,.... ------- -------------------------------- oon has a tangential component towards the face facing the moon. The point I am making is that no account of the tides could be accurate without taking into account of the fact that the earth is constantly accelerating --- i.e., the earth-moon system rotates around a common (bary-) center. Personally, I mind it much more satisfying to think of O.aRPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM sci.politics or maybe sci.poli$---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Sep 88 16:46 EDT From: Nick Papadakis In-Reply-To: <8808300246.AA06826@unix.SRI.COM> > There is one major hurdle that a new newsgroup will not cure: the ARPA > gateway. ARPA folks not on USENET only get a very limited subset of > the newsgroups. These are the sort of people who post those absolutely > deep and insightful articles to sci.physics "desperately" wondering > what "foo.bar" means. You can't even tell such people to read n.a.nu! > > Thus, in principle, sci.politics discussions should take place in > sci.misc. But it is impossible to move these discussions there. > I'd love to see this (and other) gateways broken, or at the least > be made unidirectional. PRPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM sci.politics or maybe sci.poli As the moderator of a large mailing list (AIList Digest) that crosses the internet, usenet, and bitnet, I understand your point. Unfortunately, if the gateways were made unidirectional, I suspect the direction I would prefer them to work is not the same as the one you would ... The usenet is by far the greatest source of uninformed commentary that I have seen, either on the physics list or elsewhere. The mechanisms to keep flamage to a reasonable level simply don't work that well. Moderating a list (in case you've never tried it) is a lot harder than it looks. You have to try to please everybody, and end up pleasing no one. Dealing with 'meta' discussions like politics or religion is particularly frustrating. ays broken, or at the least > be made unidirectional. PRPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM sci.politics or maybe sci.poli Cutting off one segment of the community (whichever one you happen to like least) isn't the answer. - nick -------------------------------- the gateways were made unidirectional, I suspect the direction I would prefer them to work is not the same as the one you would ... The usenet is by far the greatest source of uninformed commentary that I have seen, either on the physics list or elsewhere. The mechanisms to keep flamage to a reasonable level simply don't work that well. Moderating a list (in case you've never tried it) is a lot harder than it looks. You have to try to please everybody, and end up pleasing no one. Dealing with 'meta' discussions like politics or religion is particularly frustrating. ays broken, or at the least > be made unidirectional. PU.`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Water Rockets Y---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 88 03:47:55 GMT From: pglask@umbio.MIAMI.EDU (Peter Glaskowsky) Article-I.D.: <504@umbio.MIAMI.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <798@ns.UUCP> in article <798@ns.UUCP>, logajan@ns.UUCP (John Logajan x3118) says: > > None of the dozen or so 2-liter bottles we pressurized to 110 psi burst on > their own accord. However 2-liter bottles with more that about 25 psi up to > 110 psi would burst upon being hit with a pellet from a pellet gun. The > unamimous mode of fracture was that the bottle would be split in two (top > and bottom halves) very cleanly. We never saw any tears along the length > of the bottle. I've shot quite a few of these bottles with various firearms. With almost any centerfire rifle, or powerful centerfire handgun, there's enough energy T*J@U.`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Water Rockets dumped into the water in the bottle to blow it up real good. The ones I've shot, mostly Pepsi bottles (personal preference), tended to split vertically. With very powerful ammunition, the top is completely separated from the bottom around the point of impact. Both the top and the bottom usually have several narrow "petals" of plastic attached, indicating that the vertical tears preceded the horizontal separation. Whether or not the cap is left on, there's usually a very powerful jet of water out the top. If the cap is in the way, it just gets blown off. I never thought about turning one upside-down to see if the rest of the bottle could be lifted into the air by a downward-directed jet, although I've seen that happen with other kinds of containers. These one-liter and two-liter bottles can also be used as sound suppressors for handguns and handgun-caliber carbines. There are simple adapters to connect between the suppressor threads on, e.g., Mac-10 SMG's, and the T*J@U.`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Water Rockets 1bottle-cap threads on these bottles. (These adapters are currently subject to registration under the National Firearms Act of 1934 as if they were suppressors in themselves-- that's a $200 Federal tax, fingerprints, and the permission of your local Chief of Police before you can own one.) The gun just fires down into the top of the _empty_ bottle, and out through the bottom. Service life is limited to just a few rounds max. I don't know what the pressures are like in this application, but evidently there's no problem with the bottles bursting. -- . png | Sysop, the John Galt Line TBBS: 305-235-1645. | ARPA: pglask%umbio.miami.edu@umigw.miami.edu | uucp: uunet!gould!umbio!pglask -------------------------------- also be used as sound suppressors for handguns and handgun-caliber carbines. There are simple adapters to connect between the suppressor threads on, e.g., Mac-10 SMG's, and the T*J@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82  AIList Digest Wednesday, 14 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 82 Queries: Info on Automatic Reasoning Validation of Expert Shell Applications paper review time intelligent tutoring query model curriculum Network Design problems Request Raj Reddy's AAAI talk details artificial intelligence programming code ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 07:23:14 GMT "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82 dFrom: munnari!charlie.oz.au!spock@uunet.UU.NET (Simon Tong) Reply-to: spock@charlie.OZ (Simon Tong) Subject: Info on Automatic Reasoning G'day. I am after a list of Australian institutions that are actively conducting research on Automatic Reasoning and/or Automated Theorem Proving. I am also looking for good references to books, articles or journals that are devoted to the above areas. I would be grateful for any information ( esp. the current status of research, new paradigms ). Please respond by mail and if anyone is interested, I shall summarize to the network. "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82  Thanks in advance. ============================================================================== Simon Tong Deakin University, Geelong, Victoria. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 88 19:12:17 GMT From: mailrus!ncar!dinl!noren@ohio-state.arpa (Charles Noren) Subject: Validation of Expert Shell Applications I need a pointer to information on software validation techniques in general and specifically the validation of software applications written in an expert shell. I am using G2 by Gensym (which I like very much) and need to get a handle on formal verification techniques. "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82 h Thanks, -- Chuck Noren Martin Marietta I&CS, Denver, CO (303) 971-7930 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 88 21:26:22 GMT From: psuhcx!sbj@psuvax1.psu.edu (Sanjay B. Joshi) Subject: paper review time Does anybody know what the turn around time for papers submitted to IEEE Robotics and Automation IEEE Man, Systems, Cybernetics. Noren) Subject: Validation of Expert Shell Applications I need a pointer to information on software validation techniques in general and specifically the validation of software applications written in an expert shell. I am using G2 by Gensym (which I like very much) and need to get a handle on formal verification techniques. "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82 K How long is the average review process. And how long does it take to appear in print once the paper is accepted. sanjay joshi ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 1988 14:12:37 CDT From: Susan.Mengel@LSR.TAMU.EDU Subject: intelligent tutoring query Does anybody know where I might obtain a copy of: Man, Systems, Cybernetics. Noren) Subject: Validation of Expert Shell Applications I need a pointer to information on software validation techniques in general and specifically the validation of software applications written in an expert shell. I am using G2 by Gensym (which I like very much) and need to get a handle on formal verification techniques. "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82  Friend, J.E. and R.R. Burton. Teacher's Guide for Diagnostic Testing in Arithmetic: Subtraction. Cognitive and Instructional Sciences. Xerox Parc, Palo Alto Research Center, Palo Alto, CA. This was a manual used in the BUGGY project conducted by John Seely Brown and Richard R. Burton. I have written to Dr. Brown for a copy of it, but have received no answer. I am going to call him as well, but I still want to see if anyone else might have it. I am a Ph.D. student and would like to use the results of this research in my dissertation on intelligent tutoring systems. I would also like to know if anyone is doing research on combining neural networks and intelligent tutoring systems. Thanks in advance, "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82  Susan Mengel Research Associate Reply to: Dept. of Computer Science Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77843-3112 (409) 845-5534 ARPANET: Susan.Mengel@LSR.TAMU.EDU BITNET: MENGEL@TAMLSR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Sep 88 13:39 N From: Subject: model curriculum wer. I am going to call him as well, but I still want to see if anyone else might have it. I am a Ph.D. student and would like to use the results of this research in my dissertation on intelligent tutoring systems. I would also like to know if anyone is doing research on combining neural networks and intelligent tutoring systems. Thanks in advance, "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82  Hello, As AI teaching is developping in Swiss universities, I would like to establish a kind of model curriculum for AI, both at undergraduate and graduate level. So I would greatly appreciate suggestions and advices from people involved in AI teaching, and know what courses are actually taught in universities having programs in AI. If enough interest, I will summarize for the net. Thank you. Philippe Dugerdil Institute of Informatics e might have it. I am a Ph.D. student and would like to use the results of this research in my dissertation on intelligent tutoring systems. I would also like to know if anyone is doing research on combining neural networks and intelligent tutoring systems. Thanks in advance, "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82 Univ.of Neuchatel Switzerland Bitnet: indugerd@cnedcu51. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 88 17:41:27 GMT From: pc@bellcore.bellcore.com (Peter Clitherow) Subject: Network Design problems It seems that problems of designing communications networks (which i'm interested in) are related to other sorts of networks different domains, such as Urban Planning and the Oil/Gas industry. Has anyone studied the methods those fields use for design - if so, could they send me any reference? to use the results of this research in my dissertation on intelligent tutoring systems. I would also like to know if anyone is doing research on combining neural networks and intelligent tutoring systems. Thanks in advance, "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82 Peter Clitherow, Bellcore, 444 Hoes Lane, Room 1H-213, Piscataway, NJ 08854 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 88 21:58:25 GMT From: att!ihlpa!tracy@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Tracy) Subject: Request Raj Reddy's AAAI talk details Sadly, I did not take notes during Raj Reddy's address at the AAAI conference in St. Paul. Could someone please remind me what the five tenets of AI were? I can vaguely remember some of them like the 50,000 +/- 20,000 rule. Thanks to anyone who can help. to use the results of this research in my dissertation on intelligent tutoring systems. I would also like to know if anyone is doing research on combining neural networks and intelligent tutoring systems. Thanks in advance, "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82 p --Kim Tracy, 312-979-4164 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 88 00:47:01 GMT From: orange.cis.ohio-state.edu!amra@ohio-state.arpa (Nasir K Amra) Subject: artificial intelligence programming code I am going through Chernaik, Eugene 's "Artificial Intelligence Programming" 2nd editionbook in an attempt to learn common lisp as welll as ai programming techniques. Does anyone know if the code in the book is available via the net (preferably ftp)? It would save me quite a lot of typing in and allow me to experiment with the code. ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ike to know if anyone is doing research on combining neural networks and intelligent tutoring systems. Thanks in advance, "}@SZ=AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #82 ******************** -979-4164 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 88 00:47:01 GMT From: orange.cis.ohio-state.edu!amra@ohio-state.arpa (Nasir K Amra) Subject: artificial intelligence programming code I am going through Chernaik, Eugene 's "Artificial Intelligence Programming" 2nd editionbook in an attempt to learn common lisp as welll as ai programming techniques. Does anyone know if the code in the book is available via the net (preferably ftp)? It would save me quite a lot of typing in and allow me to experiment with the code. ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ike to know if anyone is doing research on combining neural networks and intelligent tutoring systems. Thanks in advance, "}@S_*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Sep 88 21:30:43 GMT From: ncar!noao!asuvax!nud!anasaz!john@ames.arc.nasa.gov (John Moore) Article-I.D.: <1232@anasaz.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> ?o SPACE - The Republicans support everything--including space ?station, aerospace plane, a replacement shuttle, a new launch ?vehicle and a manned flight to Mars--oh, yes, and a balanced ^^^^^^^ This little bit of sarcasm won't exactly kill us, but it certainly hints at the bias in this publication! ?budget amendment to the Constitution and no new taxes. The ?Democratic platform is totally silent on the question of space. ? ?o EDUCATION - The Democrats commit themselves to "the principle 'S_*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 <?that no one should be denied the opportunity to attend college ?for financial reasons," while the Republican platform promises ?"to challenge college administrators to exercise more fiscal ?responsibility." The Republicans offer a big list of small ?promises, such as protecting the Pledge of Allegiance in schools. Now tell me.... what does the above paragraph have to do with physics? We both know that both parties are pledging to improve education (and probably won't do it anyway). Thie above paragraph, especially the last sentence looks like a gratuitous slam at the republicans. -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be someone else's. 'S_*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88  -------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 11:31:51 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> In article <1232@anasaz.UUCP>, john@anasaz (John Moore) writes: > ^^^^^^^ This little bit of >sarcasm won't exactly kill us, but it certainly hints at the bias in >this publication! Oh? You mean truly unbiased observers carefully avoid pointing out fraudulent pipe dreams for what they are? I'd say the major bias the business about "oh yes, a balanced budget" ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be someone else's. 'S_*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 hinted at is that Richard Piner is able to count. And also a strong bias against any politician painting a dishonest picture about the prospects of funding the space program in the future. >? EDUCATION - The Democrats commit themselves to "the principle >?that no one should be denied the opportunity to attend college >?for financial reasons," while the Republican platform promises >?"to challenge college administrators to exercise more fiscal >?responsibility." The Republicans offer a big list of small >?promises, such as protecting the Pledge of Allegiance in schools. >Now tell me.... what does the above paragraph have to do with physics? It seems pretty obvious to me. Support for education: which party is pushing it? Contrariwise, which party is sending clear cut signals of cuts in programs? Just how much concern over *education* is shown by a candidate making his biggest election issue the Pledge of Alle- 'S_*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 giance? > We both know that both parties are pledging to >improve education (and probably won't do it anyway). Whether education is improved or not by throwing money at it, I wouldn't know. But I sure don't think academic physics research is *harmed* by government investment in education. Ever hear of the University of Geor- gia, over in Atlanta? Or the University of Texas, at Houston? Sure seems like a nice payoff to me. >Thie above paragraph, especially the last sentence looks like a >gratuitous slam at the republicans. Perhaps you don't remember the McCarthy era. Perhaps you think it was mostly Hollywood actors getting blacklisted and all that rot. s to me. Support for education: which party is pushing it? Contrariwise, which party is sending clear cut signals of cuts in programs? Just how much concern over *education* is shown by a candidate making his biggest election issue the Pledge of Alle- 'S_*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 It wasn't. More than half of those investigated and generally ruined by the McCarthy witchhunts were mathematicians, physicists, and engi- neers. Presumably the people who might be passing atomic bomb secrets --or worse--to the Commies. Of course, all of this turned out in the end to be McCarthy's political grandstanding. I think quite simply that Richard Piner has a longer memory than you do of loyalty oaths and the terrible damage they did to the physics and allied professions in years past. Have some respect for such a memory, and those whose physics careers were destroyed. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 -------------------------------- or education: which party is pushing it? Contrariwise, which party is sending clear cut signals of cuts in programs? Just how much concern over *education* is shown by a candidate making his biggest election issue the Pledge of Alle- 'Sc;PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Matter wave compression ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 00:15:11 GMT From: robiner@ganelon.usc.edu (Steve) Article-I.D.: <12133@oberon.USC.EDU> Question: If matter is a wave as current quantum mechanics suggests, why wouldn't this wave also be compressed in the direction of motion, just as light should be, if there is an ether. If they are both compressed, then the path length of light would be shortened by the same amount as the ruler which messures it's distance. ( yes, I know there really isn't a ruler, but the point is, the distance the light travels is less by the same amount. ) What I'm getting at is, why can't one say that the matter waves and light waves both travel in the SAME medium, so that no compression should be noticed? Y* Sc;PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Matter wave compression 1 =Steve= -------------------------------- --------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 00:15:11 GMT From: robiner@ganelon.usc.edu (Steve) Article-I.D.: <12133@oberon.USC.EDU> Question: If matter is a wave as current quantum mechanics suggests, why wouldn't this wave also be compressed in the direction of motion, just as light should be, if there is an ether. If they are both compressed, then the path length of light would be shortened by the same amount as the ruler which messures it's distance. ( yes, I know there really isn't a ruler, but the point is, the distance the light travels is less by the same amount. ) What I'm getting at is, why can't one say that the matter waves and light waves both travel in the SAME medium, so that no compression should be noticed? Y* SdPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Unsubscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 07:14:00 EDT From: "SI01::SCOTTTB" E L E C T R O N I C M A I L (DDN Host Address: ESDVAX.ARPA) Date: 13-Sep-1988 07:14 From: Thomas B. Scott Username: SCOTTTB Dept: ESD/SC 2014 Tel No: 377-3600 TO: _MAILER! ( _DDN[PHYSICS@SRI-UNIX.ARPA] ) Subject: Unsubscribe (SdPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Unsubscribe c Please unsubscribe my account from your mailing list. -------------------------------- m: "SI01::SCOTTTB" E L E C T R O N I C M A I L (DDN Host Address: ESDVAX.ARPA) Date: 13-Sep-1988 07:14 From: Thomas B. Scott Username: SCOTTTB Dept: ESD/SC 2014 Tel No: 377-3600 TO: _MAILER! ( _DDN[PHYSICS@SRI-UNIX.ARPA] ) Subject: Unsubscribe (SfɠPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM spy satellites T---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 13 Sep 88 09:30:26-PDT From: Mike Dante In-Reply-To: <8808290222.AA14693@unix.SRI.COM> The formula quoted by Alan Bostick for the resolution of a lens is a rule of thumb obtained by saying that two point images are just resolvable if the first minimum of the diffraction pattern formed by one point falls on the central maximum of the diffraction pattern of the other point. It is a rule of thumb rather than a "hard result of optics" because "just resolvable" is not a precise term. Alan is completely right that "no amount of signal processing will 'restore' information that isn't there". But in fact all images that reach our eyes have lost information on the way. The signal processor that is our optic system (including the brain) processes the image and frequently fills in lost information. Almost all image information is highly redundant. And all human communications, including auto license tags, are very highly redundant. The freshman optics "just resolvable" makes no ڠSfɠPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM spy satellites attempt to deal with any of this. For your spy satellite the criterion is whether or not the analysts can extract the information that they need. Quite different from the Astronomer who may only need to be sure that the image contains two stars rather than one. Many people claim that they can resolve images by eyeball that are unresolvable according to the Rayleigh criteria given in the optics text books. I am sure that sophisticated image processing techniques can do much better than this. I don't know how well the programs used with spy satellites can do. If I did, I couldn't post this message. But I think everyone on this mailing list would be interested in postings from those who are working in the field (and not on classified projects). It would be interesting to know what is going on. I have seen demonstrations of commercial image processing products that were quite remarkable. I would expect the research status to be well beyond those. ------- -------------------------------- are very highly redundant. The freshman optics "just resolvable" makes no ڠShݘ@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Discussion of sci.politics (wa2---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 13 Sep 88 10:12:36-PDT From: Mike Dante In-Reply-To: <8808300235.AA06686@unix.SRI.COM> Maybe a solution to the problem of politics on the physics list would be to require that all postings containing politics have the phrase "WHATS NEW" in the subject line. Then those not interested in having their physics corrupted by politics could delete, without reading, any message with "WHATS NEW" in the title. ------- -------------------------------- !y@THEORYNET linus!watro@HUSC6.HARVARD.EDU Question on Combinator ReductiX Is there anywhere in the literature a correctness proof for combinator reduction using the cyclic Y-rule, as described, for example, in Peyton-Jones' book on implementing functional languages? I have looked at several papers on Graph Rewriting, including one by Barendregt et. al. in the 87 PARLE conference, but I cannot find this result. -- Dr. Ronald J. Watro The MITRE Corporation, MS A040, Burlington RD, Bedford, MA 01730 USA 617-271-8390 ARPA: watro%linus@mitre-bedford.ARPA UUCP: ...{decvax,utzoo,philabs,security,allegra,genrad}!linus!watro  @THEORYNET nachum@M.CS.UIUC.EDU Call for Papers -- RTA-89 6RTA-89 CALL FOR PAPERS Third International Conference on Rewriting Techniques and Applications April 3-5, 1989 Chapel Hill, North Carolina, U.S.A. The third bi-annual Conference on Rewriting Techniques and Applications will be held in Chapel Hill on April 3-5, 1989. Papers are being solicited in any of the following or related areas: Term rewriting systems Symbolic and algebraic computation Conditional rewriting Equational programming languages Graph rewriting and grammars Completion procedures Y @THEORYNET nachum@M.CS.UIUC.EDU Call for Papers -- RTA-89 $Algebraic semantics Rewrite-based theorem proving Equational reasoning Unification and matching algorithms Lambda and combinatory calculi Term-based architectures Proceedings are planned for publication by Springer-Verlag as part of their Lecture Notes in Computer Science series. Both original research papers and state-of-the-art technical surveys are solicited. Descriptions of new, implemented systems will also be considered. All submissions should be clearly written in English and include references and comparisons with related work, where appropriate. (If a substantially similar paper has or will be submitted for publication elsewhere, this fact must be noted in the cover letter.) Each submission should include 10 (ten) copies of a full draft paper of no more than 15 (fifteen) double-spaced pages. (If a copier is unavailable to the author, one copy will suffice.) Please include an electronic address, if available. Submissions must reach the following address no later than Y @THEORYNET nachum@M.CS.UIUC.EDU Call for Papers -- RTA-89 October 17, 1988: Nachum Dershowitz, RTA-89 Department of Computer Science University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 1304 West Springfield Ave. telephone: [+1] (217) 333-8879 Urbana, IL 61801-2987 Internet: nachum@a.cs.uiuc.edu U.S.A. Bitnet: nachum@uiucvmd Notification of acceptance or rejection by December 5, 1988. Camera-ready copy (following special guidelines) due January 20, 1989. Program Committee: Bruno Courcelle (Bordeaux) Deepak Kapur (Albany) Nachum Dershowitz (Urbana), Chair Claude Kirchner (Nancy) Jean Gallier (Philadelphia) Jan Willem Klop (Amsterdam) fact must be noted in the cover letter.) Each submission should include 10 (ten) copies of a full draft paper of no more than 15 (fifteen) double-spaced pages. (If a copier is unavailable to the author, one copy will suffice.) Please include an electronic address, if available. Submissions must reach the following address no later than Y @THEORYNET nachum@M.CS.UIUC.EDU Call for Papers -- RTA-89 Jieh Hsiang (Stony Brook) Dallas Lankford (Ruston) Jean-Pierre Jouannaud (Orsay) Mark Stickel (Menlo Park) Local Arrangements Chair: David A. Plaisted Department of Computer Science CB# 3175, 352 Sitterson Hall University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Chapel-Hill, NC 27599-3175 telephone: [+1] (919) 962-1751 U.S.A. Internet: plaisted@cs.unc.edu RTA-89 will be held on or near the campus of the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. A block of rooms has been reserved at the Carolina Inn near campus. Chapel Hill, a town of about 40,000 in central North Carolina, blends a em Klop (Amsterdam) fact must be noted in the cover letter.) Each submission should include 10 (ten) copies of a full draft paper of no more than 15 (fifteen) double-spaced pages. (If a copier is unavailable to the author, one copy will suffice.) Please include an electronic address, if available. Submissions must reach the following address no later than Y @THEORYNET nachum@M.CS.UIUC.EDU Call for Papers -- RTA-89 nmild climate, a relaxed southern atmosphere, and the charm of a college town with such cultural advantages as excellent theater and music, an art museum, and a planetarium. The Carolina beaches, Cape Hattaras, Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and the Blue Ridge Mountains are only a few hours away. North Carolina is known for its dogwoods, which are in bloom in early April. The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill was the first state university to open its doors in 1795, and currently enrolls approximately 22,000 students. The Computer Science Department has about 120 full-time graduate students, and is particularly well known for its work in computer graphics. In 1987 the Department moved into a new building, which has one of the most advanced communications systems in the country. Together with Duke University and North Carolina State University, UNC at Chapel Hill is one of the vertices of the Research Triangle, a rapidly growing cluster of laboratories and start-up companies. A number of major corporations have facilities at the nearby Research Triangle Park, one of the nation's Y @THEORYNET nachum@M.CS.UIUC.EDU Call for Papers -- RTA-89 largest and most successful research centers. The Microelectronics Center of North Carolina (MCNC) is also located at the Research Triangle Park. Previous meetings were held in Dijon (1985) and Bordeaux (1987); their proceedings were also published by Springer. Further details and the final program will be sent to anyone submitting a paper or otherwise expressing interest in the meeting. ****************************** PLEASE POST ****************************** s doors in 1795, and currently enrolls approximately 22,000 students. The Computer Science Department has about 120 full-time graduate students, and is particularly well known for its work in computer graphics. In 1987 the Department moved into a new building, which has one of the most advanced communications systems in the country. Together with Duke University and North Carolina State University, UNC at Chapel Hill is one of the vertices of the Research Triangle, a rapidly growing cluster of laboratories and start-up companies. A number of major corporations have facilities at the nearby Research Triangle Park, one of the nation's Y a`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83  AIList Digest Thursday, 15 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 83 Philosophy: The Uncertainty Principle. Newell's response to KL questions Pinker & Prince: The final remark ... Navigation and symbol manipulation I got rhythm Robotics and Free Will ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 05 Sep 88 14:38:35 +0100 From: "Gordon Joly, Statistics, UCL" 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 >Subject: The Uncertainty Principle. In Vol 8 # 78 Blair Houghton cries out:- > I do wish people would keep *recursion* and *perturbation* straight > and different from the Uncertainty Principle. Perhaps... But what is the *perturbation* in question? "Observation"? Blair also observes > Electrons "know" where they are and where they are going. And I know where I'm coming from too, Man! On page 55 (of the American edition) of "A Brief History of Time", Professor Stephen Hawking says ``The uncertainty principle had profound implications for way in 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 which we view the world... The uncertainty principle signaled an end to Laplace's dream of a theory of science, a model of the universe that could be completely deterministic: one certainly cannot predict future events exactly if one cannot even measure the present state of the universe precisely!'' And what of "chaos"? Gordon Joly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Sep 88 12:14:10 EDT From: Allen.Newell@CENTRO.SOAR.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Newell's response to KL questions ``The uncertainty principle had profound implications for way in 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 > From: IT21%SYSB.SALFORD.AC.UK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Newell's Knowledge Level > From: Andrew Basden, I.T. Institute, University of Salford, Salford. > Please can anyone help clarify a topic? > In 1982 Allen Newell published a paper, 'The Knowledge Level' (Artificial > Intelligence, v.18, p.87-127), in which he proposed that there is a level > of description above and separate from the Symbol Level. He called this > the Knowledge Level. I have found it a very important and useful concept > in both Knowledge Representation and Knowledge Acquisition, largely > because it separates knowledge from how it is expressed. > > But to my view Newell's paper contains a number of ambiguities and > apparent minor inconsistencies as well as an unnecessary adherence to > logic and goal-directed activity which I would like to sort out. As > Newell says, "to claim that the knowledge level exists is to make a 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 > scientific claim, which can range from dead wrong to slightly askew, in > the manner of all scientific claims." I want to find a refinement of it > that is a bit less askew. > > Surprisingly, in the 6 years since the idea was introduced there has > been very little discussion about it in AI circles. In psychology > circles likewise there has been little detailed discussion, and here the > concepts are only similar, not identical, and bear different names. SCI > and SSCI together give only 26 citations of the paper, of which only four > in any way discuss the concepts, most merely using various concepts in > Newell's paper to support their own statements. Even in these four there > is little clarification or development of the idea of the Knowledge > Level. [[AN: I agree there has been very little active use or development of the concept in AI, although it seems to be increasing somewhat. The two most important technical uses are Tom Ditterich's notion of KL vs SL learning and 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83  Hector Levesque's work on knowledge bases. Zenon Pylyshyn uses the notion as an appropriate way to discuss foundation issues in an upcoming book on the foundatations of cognitive science (while also using the term semantic level for it). And David Kirsh (now at MIT AIL) did a thesis in philosophy at Oxford on the KL some time ago, which has not been published, as far as I know. We have continued to use the notion in our own research and it played a strong role in my William James Lectures (at Harvard). But, importantly, the logicists have not found it very interesting (with the exception of Lesveque and Brachmann). I would say the concept is doing about as well as the notion of weak methods did, which was introduced in 1969 and didn't begin to play a useful role in AI until a decade later. I might say that the evolution of the KL in our own thinking has been (as I had hoped) in the direction of seeing the KL as just another systems level, with no special philsophical character from the other levels. In particular, there seems to me no more reason to talk about an observer taking an intentional stance when using the knowledge level to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 h a system than there is to talk about an engineering taking the electronic- circuits stance when he says "consider the circuit used for ...". It is ok, but the emphasis is on the wrong syllABLE. One other point might be worth making. The KL is above the SL in the systems hierarchy. However, in use, one often considers a system whose internal structure is described at the SL as a collection of components communicating via languages and codes. But the components may themselves be described at the KL, rather than at any lower level. Indeed, design is almost always an approximation to this situation. Such usage doesn't stretch the concept of KL and SL in anyway or put the KL below the SL. It is just that the scheme to be used to describe a system and its behavior is always pragmatic, depending on what is known about it and what purposes the description is to serve. ]] > So I am turning to the AILIST bulletin board. Has anyone out there any > understanding of the Knowledge Level that can help in this process? > Indeed, is Allen Newell himself listening to the board? an observer taking an intentional stance when using the knowledge level to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83  [[AN: No, but one of my friends (Anurag Acharya) is and forwarded it to me, so I return it via him.]] > Some of the questions I have are as follows: > > 1. Some (eg. Dennett) mention 3 levels, while Newell mentions 5. Who is > 'right' - or rather, what is the relation between them? [[AN: The computer systems hierarchy (sans the KL), which is what I infer the "5" refers to, is familiar, established, and technical (i.e., welded into current digital technology). There may also exist other such systems hierarchies. Dennett (and Pylyshyn, loc cit) talk about 3, simply because the details of the lower implementations are not of interest to them, so they simply talk about some sort of physical systems. There is no doubt that the top two levels correspond: the program or symbol level, and above that the knowledge, semantic or intentional systems level. That s to serve. ]] > So I am turning to the AILIST bulletin board. Has anyone out there any > understanding of the Knowledge Level that can help in this process? > Indeed, is Allen Newell himself listening to the board? an observer taking an intentional stance when using the knowledge level to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83  does not say the formulations or interpretations of the intentional systems level and the KL are identical, but they are aimed at the same phenomena and the same systems possibilities. There is an upcoming Brain and Behavioral Science treatment of Dennett's new book on the Intentional Stance, in which my own (short) commentary raises the question of the relation of these two notions, but I do not know what Dennett says about it, if anything.]] > 2. Newell says that logic is at the Knowledge Level. Why? I would have > put it, like mathematics, very firmly in the Symbol Level. [[AN: Here Basden mystifies me. However obscure I may have been in the KL paper, I did not say that logic was at the KL. On the contrary, as the paper says in section 4.4, "A logic is just a representation of knowledge. It is not the knowledge itself, but a structure at the symbol level."]] > So I am turning to the AILIST bulletin board. Has anyone out there any > understanding of the Knowledge Level that can help in this process? > Indeed, is Allen Newell himself listening to the board? an observer taking an intentional stance when using the knowledge level to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 > 3. Why the emphasis on logic? Is it necessary to the concept, or just > one form of it? What about extra-logical knowledge, and how does his > 'logic' include non-monotonic logics? [[AN: Again, the paper seems to me rather clear about this. Logics are simply languages that are designed to be clear about what knowledge they represent. They have lots of family resemblances, because certain notions (negation, conjunction, disjunction, functions and parameters) are central to saying things about domains. Monotonic logics are so called, because they are members of this family. I don't have any special 'logic' that I am talking about, just what the culture calls logic. The emphasis on logic is real, just like the emphasis on analysis (the mathematics of the continuum) is real for physics. But there are lots of other ways of representing knowledge, for example, modeling the situations being known. And there is plenty of evidence that logics are not necessarily efficient for extracting new useful expressions. This evidence is not just from AI, but from all of mathematics and science, which primarily use formalisms sing the knowledge level to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83  that are not logics. As to "extra-logical" knowledge, I understand that term ok as a way of indicating that some knowledge is difficult to express in logics, but I do not understand it in any more technical way. Certainly, the endeavor of people like McCarthy has been to seek ways to broaden the useful expressiveness of logic -- to bring within logic kinds of knowledge that here-to-fore seemed "extra-logical". Certainly, there is lots of knowledge we use where we have not yet developed ways of expressing in external languages (data structures outside the head); and having not done it cannot be quite sure that it can be done. I should say that in other people's (admittedly rare) writings about the KL there sometimes seems to be a presumption that logic is necessary and that, in particular, some notion of implicational closure is necesssary. Neither are the case. Often (read: usually) agents have an indefinitely large body of knowledge if expressed in terms of ground expressions of the form "in situation S with goal G take action A". Thus, such knowledge needs to be represented (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 v object plus some processes for extracting the applicable ground expressions when appropriate. With logics this is done by taking the knowledge to be the implicational closure over a logic expression (usually a big conjunction). But, it is perfectly possible to have other productive ways (models with legal transformations), and it is perfectly possible to restrict logics so that modus ponens does not apply (as Levesque and others have recently emphasized). I'm not quite sure why all this is difficult to be clear about. It may indeed be because of the special framing role of logics, where to be clear in our analyses of what knowledge is there we always return to the fact that other representations can be transduced to logic in a way that preserves knoweldge (though it does not preserve the effort profile of what it takes to bring the knowledge to bear).]] > 4. The definition of the details of the Knowledge Level is in terms of > the goals of a system. Is this necessary to the concept, or is it just > one possible form of it? There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 > [[AN: In the KL formulation, the goals of the system are indeed a necessary concept. The KL is a systems level, which is to say, it is a way of describing the behavior of a system. To get from knowledge to behavior requires some linking concept. This is all packaged in the principle of rationality, which simply says that an agent uses its knowledge to take actions to attain its goals. You can't get rid of goals in that formulation. Whether there are other formulations of knowledge that might dispense with this I don't rightly know. Basden appears to be focussing simply on the issue of a level that abstracts from representation and process. With only that said, it would seem so. And certainly, generally speaking, the development of logic and epistemology has not taken goals as critical. But if one attempts to formulate a system level and not just a level of abstraction, then some laws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83  Dennett, D. The Intentional Stance, Cambridge, MA: Bradford Books MIT Press, 1988 (in press). Dietterich, T. G. Learning at the knowledge level. Machine Learning, 1986, v1, 287-316. Levesque, H. J. Foundations of a functional approach to knowledge representation, Artificial Intelligence, 1984, v23, 155-212. Levesque, H. J. Making believers out of computers, Artificial Intelligence, 1987, v30, 81-108. Newell, A. The intentional stance and the knowledge level: Comments on D. Dennett, The Intentional Stance. Behavioral and Brain Sciences (in press). Newell, A., Unified Theories of Cognition, The William James Lectures. process. With only that said, it would seem so. And certainly, generally speaking, the development of logic and epistemology has not taken goals as critical. But if one attempts to formulate a system level and not just a level of abstraction, then some laws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 k Harvard University, Spring 1987 (to be published). (See especially Lecture 2 on Foundations of Cognitive Science.) Pylyshyn, Z., Computing in cognitive science, in Posner, M. (ed) Foundations of Cognitive Science, MIT Bradford Press (forthcoming). Rosenbloom, P. S., Laird, J. E., & Newell, A. Knowledge-level learning in Soar, AAAI87. Rosenbloom, P. S., Newell, A., & Laird, J. Towards the knowledge level in Soar: The role of architecture in the use of knowledge, in VanLehn, K., (ed), Architectures for Intelligence, Erlbaum (in press). ]] ------------------------------ Theories of Cognition, The William James Lectures. process. With only that said, it would seem so. And certainly, generally speaking, the development of logic and epistemology has not taken goals as critical. But if one attempts to formulate a system level and not just a level of abstraction, then some laws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 XDate: 7 Sep 88 06:10:53 GMT From: mind!harnad@princeton.edu (Stevan Harnad) Subject: Re: Pinker & Prince: The final remark... Posted for Pinker & Prince by S. Harnad: __________________________________________________________________ From: Alan Prince Cc: steve@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Here is a final remark from us. I've posted it to connectionists and will leave it to your good offices to handle the rest of the branching factor. Thanks, Alan Prince. ``The Eye's Plain Version is a Thing Apart'' Whatever the intricacies of the other substantive issues that --------------- Theories of Cognition, The William James Lectures. process. With only that said, it would seem so. And certainly, generally speaking, the development of logic and epistemology has not taken goals as critical. But if one attempts to formulate a system level and not just a level of abstraction, then some laws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 Harnad deals with in such detail, for him the central question must always be: "whether Pinker & Prince's article was to be taken as a critique of the connectionist approach in principle, or just of the Rumelhart & McClelland 1986 model in particular" (Harnad 1988c, cf. 1988a,b). At this we are mildly abashed: we don't understand the continuing insistence on exclusive "or". It is no mystery that our paper is a detailed analysis of one empirical model of a corner (of a corner) of linguistic capacity; nor is it obscure that from time to time, when warranted, we draw broader conclusions (as in section 8). Aside from the 'ambiguities' arising from Harnad's humpty-dumpty-ish appropriation of words like 'learning', we find that the two modes of reasoning coexist in comfort and symbiosis. Harnad apparently wants us to pledge allegiance to one side (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 S. Pinker A. Prince ______________________________________________________________ Posted for Pinker & Prince by: -- Stevan Harnad ARPA/INTERNET: harnad@mind.princeton.edu harnad@princeton.edu harnad@confidence.princeton.edu srh@flash.bellcore.com harnad@mind.uucp CSNET: harnad%mind.princeton.edu@relay.cs.net UUCP: princeton!mind!harnad BITNET: harnad@pucc.bitnet harnad@pucc.princeton.edu (609)-921-7771 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Sep 88 23:59 EDT From: Michael Travers Subject: Re: navigation and symbol manipulation Date: 23 Aug 88 06:05:43 GMT arising from Harnad's humpty-dumpty-ish appropriation of words like 'learning', we find that the two modes of reasoning coexist in comfort and symbiosis. Harnad apparently wants us to pledge allegiance to one side (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 ' From: jbn@glacier.stanford.edu (John B. Nagle) It's depressing to think that it might take a century to work up to a human-level AI from the bottom. Ants by 2000, mice by 2020 doesn't sound like an unrealistic schedule for the medium term, and it gives an idea of what might be a realistic rate of progress. Well, we're a little ahead of schedule. I'm working on agent-based systems for programming animal behavior, and ants are my main test case. They're pretty convincing, and have been blessed by real ant ethologists. But I won't make any predictions as to how long it will take to extend this methodology to mice or humans. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Sep 88 10:12 EDT From: PGOETZ%LOYVAX.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU s. Harnad apparently wants us to pledge allegiance to one side (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 >Subject: I got rhythm Here's a question for anybody: Why do we have rhythm? Picture yourself tapping your foot to the tune of the latest Top 40 trash hit. While you do this, your brain is busy processing sensory inputs, controlling the muscles in your foot, and thinking about whatever you think about when you listen to Top 40 music. If you could write a conventional program to do all those things, each task would take a different amount of time. It would "consciously" perceive time at varying rates, since a lot of time spent processing one task would give it less time of "consciousness" (whatever that is.) So if this program were solving a system of 100 equations and 100 unknowns while tapping its simulated foot, the foot taps would be at a slower rate than if it were doing nothing else at all. wants us to pledge allegiance to one side (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 I suspect that the same would hold true of parallel programs and expert- system paradigms. For neural networks, an individual task would take the same amount of time regardless of data, but some things require more subtasks. It comes down to this: Different actions require different processing overhead. So why, no matter what we do, do we perceive time as a constant? Why do we, in fact, have rhythm? Do we have an internal clock, or a "main loop" which takes a constant time to run? Or do we have an inadequate view of consciousness when we see it as a program? Phil Goetz PGOETZ@LOYVAX.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Sep 88 17:32:38 -0200 From: Antti Ylikoski e foot taps would be at a slower rate than if it were doing nothing else at all. wants us to pledge allegiance to one side (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 Subject: Robotics and Free Will In a recent AIList issue, John McCarthy presented the problem how a robot could utilize information dealing with its previous actions to improve its behaviour in the future. Here is an idea. Years ago, an acquaintance of mine came across a very simple computer game which was annoyingly overwhelming to its human opponent. The human chose either 0 or 1. The computer tried to guess the alternative he had chosen in advance. He told the alternative he had chosen to the computer, which told him if it had guessed right or wrong. The human got a point if the guess of the machine was incorrect; otherwise the machine got a point. 00 From: Antti Ylikoski e foot taps would be at a slower rate than if it were doing nothing else at all. wants us to pledge allegiance to one side (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83 hAfter a number of rounds, the computer started to play very well, guessing the alternative that the human had chosen correctly in some 60-70 per cent of the rounds. Neither of us ever got to know how the game worked. I would guess it had a model of the behaviour of the human opponent. Perhaps the model was a Markov process with states "human chooses 0" and "human chooses 1"; maybe the program performed a Fourier analysis of the time series. This suggests an answer to McCarthy's problem. Make the robot have a model of the behaviour of the environment. Calculate the parameters of the model with a best fit approach from the history data. The robot also might have several possible models and choose the one which produces the best fit to the history data. If the environment is active (other robots, humans) one also could apply game theory. (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0Cha`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #83  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Antti Ylikoski !YLIKOSKI@FINFUN (BITNET) Helsinki University of Technology !OPMVAX::YLIKOSKI (DECnet) Digital Systems Laboratory !mcvax!hutds!ayl (UUCP) Otakaari 5 A ! SF-02150 Espoo, Finland ! ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** analysis of the time series. This suggests an answer to McCarthy's problem. Make the robot have a model of the behaviour of the environment. Calculate the parameters of the model with a best fit approach from the history data. The robot also might have several possible models and choose the one which produces the best fit to the history data. If the environment is active (other robots, humans) one also could apply game theory. (or the other) of a phony disjunction. May we politely refuse? aws of behavior are required. And knowledge in action by agents seems to presuppose something in the agents that impels them to action. There is much knowledge that is not goal > directed. nted (by us or by the agent itself) by a finite physical el to describe 0ChK PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 14:38:39 GMT From: ut-emx!ethan@cs.utexas.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) Article-I.D.: <5984@ut-emx.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <13450@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <657@eplrx7.UUCP> <1201@gethen.UUCP> <14127@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In article <14127@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: > In article <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, I wrote: > >[String theories] predict new particles with masses around 1e19 ev. > > 1e19 Gev. I repeat, 1e19 GIGA-ev. Sorry about that... Under the circumstances, I would suggest that this is a small correction. W]K PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tipler time machine  :-) -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU -------------------------------- Math Grad Student) writes: > In article <14111@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, I wrote: > >[String theories] predict new particles with masses around 1e19 ev. > > 1e19 Gev. I repeat, 1e19 GIGA-ev. Sorry about that... Under the circumstances, I would suggest that this is a small correction. W]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 14:58:32 GMT From: ut-emx!ethan@cs.utexas.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) Article-I.D.: <5987@ut-emx.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA>, dekleer.pa@Xerox.COM writes: > I find the explanations offered so far intuitively unsatisfying. For example, *I have deleted a repetition of my suggestion for how to think about tides* > > This is intuitively incomplete. Suppose for some reason we had a > tractor beam which fixed the centers of the earth and moon. In this > case the water further away from the moon feels less gravitational > attraction than the rigid earth, but this WOULD NOT result in a bulge > away from the moon. Indeed there would only be one bulge facing the > moon. Just draw the force vectors on a piece of water (assume constant > depth on a spherical rigid earth). Just qualitatively, every piece of 0PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES %> water except the infinitesmal column precisely away from the moon has a > tangential component towards the face facing the moon. My first reaction to this was that this was completely silly. Tractor beams? On second thought, I agree that there is a serious point here. I am used to assuming that one can treat tidal effects as perturbations on a dynamical situation (e.g. the Earth-moon system) without having to rejustify the basic treatment, in this case that the distance between the moon and the earth is the result of a balancing between gravity and centripetal "force". Reading this article has made me realize that this not a trivial point for a student to master. I'd like to thank the author for improving my astro 301 lecture. -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU 0PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES  -------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 02:30:18 GMT From: jwl@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (James Wilbur Lewis) Article-I.D.: <26078@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5987@ut-emx.UUCP> In article <5987@ut-emx.UUCP> ethan@ut-emx.UUCP (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) writes: -I am used to assuming that one can treat tidal effects -as perturbations on a dynamical situation (e.g. the Earth-moon system) -without having to rejustify the basic treatment, in this case that the -distance between the moon and the earth is the result of a balancing -between gravity and centripetal "force". You mean centrifugal "force", right? (The centripetal force *is* gravity.) he author for improving my astro 301 lecture. -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU 0PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES  -- Jim Lewis U.C. Berkeley -------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 14:00:39 GMT From: ut-emx!ethan@cs.utexas.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) Article-I.D.: <6004@ut-emx.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5987@ut-emx.UUCP> <26078@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> In article <26078@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, jwl@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (James Wilbur Lewis) writes: > You mean centrifugal "force", right? (The centripetal force *is* gravity.) > the basic treatment, in this case that the -distance between the moon and the earth is the result of a balancing -between gravity and centripetal "force". You mean centrifugal "force", right? (The centripetal force *is* gravity.) he author for improving my astro 301 lecture. -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU 0PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES Ooops.... Did I mention I have two very small children at home who are depriving me of sleep? I better do so now. -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU -------------------------------- the basic treatment, in this case that the -distance between the moon and the earth is the result of a balancing -between gravity and centripetal "force". You mean centrifugal "force", right? (The centripetal force *is* gravity.) he author for improving my astro 301 lecture. -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU 0`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Neutrinos and Index of RefractI---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 22:55:33 GMT From: crabb@cadsys.dec.com (Charlie, SEG/CAD, HLO2-2/G13, (dtn 225)(617)568-5739) Article-I.D.: <8809132255.AA26341@decwrl.dec.com> Andrew (Path: decwrl!sgi!andru) writes: >So neutrinos are outpacing photons... is this reasonable? Couldn't >some nasty time-paradoxes be created with this situation? You might be able to talk to yourself in the past :-) Seriously though, think about _electrons_ outpacing the photons. The next time you visit a nuclear reactor, <`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Neutrinos and Index of Refract9 (when you can find one operational (okay,okay net.politics)) look down at the blue glow in the water. Cerenkov radiation is that condition in which the photon is indeed slower than the speed of the particles in the medium. /Charlie decwrl!strshp.dec.com!crabb -------------------------------- s... is this reasonable? Couldn't >some nasty time-paradoxes be created with this situation? You might be able to talk to yourself in the past :-) Seriously though, think about _electrons_ outpacing the photons. The next time you visit a nuclear reactor, < PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 U---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 00:17:39 GMT From: pyramid!vsi1!unisv!vanpelt@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Mike Van Pelt) Article-I.D.: <611@unisv.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> In article <1401@pur-phy> piner@pur-phy (Richard Piner) passes along the Robert L. Park Political Diatribe Loosely (if at all) Connected with Physics: So, I'll take a bit of "equal time" here... Note, this a politically slanted flame. Just like the stuff it's a response to. >WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 9 September 1988 Washington, DC >o ENERGY POLICY - Both platforms call for clean coal technology, >conservation, and increased use of methanol and ethanol. The >Democrats contend the country "could reduce its reliance on >nuclear power" with these measures. The Republicans anticipate .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 >the "expansion of safe nuclear power" to meet future needs. Great! If you're a "No Nooker" technophobe, vote Democrat. If you're interested in the United States participating in the 21'st century, vote Republican. Gee, that's nice to know. >o SPACE - The Republicans support everything--including space >station, aerospace plane, a replacement shuttle, a new launch >vehicle and a manned flight to Mars--oh, yes, and a balanced >budget amendment to the Constitution and no new taxes. The >Democratic platform is totally silent on the question of space. And that goes double (at least!) for the space program. If you want the future of the human race proxmired (well, the English-speaking part of it, anyway; most of the rest of the uld reduce its reliance on >nuclear power" with these measures. The Republicans anticipate .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 world is not so stupid) then by all means, vote Democrat. -- Mike Van Pelt Here lies a Technophobe, Unisys, Silicon Valley No whimper, no blast. vanpelt@unisv.UUCP His life's goal accomplished, Zero risk at last. -------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 00:46:50 GMT From: nrl-cmf!mailrus!uflorida!gatech!emory!platt@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Dan Platt) Article-I.D.: <3192@emory.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> In article <1232@anasaz.UUCP> john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) writes: nt the future of the human race proxmired (well, the English-speaking part of it, anyway; most of the rest of the uld reduce its reliance on >nuclear power" with these measures. The Republicans anticipate .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 7>?o SPACE - The Republicans support everything--including space >?station, aerospace plane, a replacement shuttle, a new launch >?vehicle and a manned flight to Mars--oh, yes, and a balanced > ^^^^^^^ This little >bit of sarcasm won't exactly kill us, but it certainly hints >at the bias in this publication! Actually, this bias is reasonable. The Reagan budget has made deep inroads into various aspects of physics by cutting funds available for student aid/loans (it research budgets harder when we can find good students). The promise of doing these things on a balanced budget implies that the money will come from somewhere... > >?budget amendment to the Constitution and no new taxes. The >?Democratic platform is totally silent on the question of space. The Republicans anticipate .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 9>? >?o EDUCATION - The Democrats commit themselves to "the principle >?that no one should be denied the opportunity to attend college >?for financial reasons," while the Republican platform promises >?"to challenge college administrators to exercise more fiscal >?responsibility." The Republicans offer a big list of small >?promises, such as protecting the Pledge of Allegiance in schools. > >Now tell me.... what does the above paragraph have to do with >physics? We both know that both parties are pledging to >improve education (and probably won't do it anyway). Thie above >paragraph, especially the last sentence looks like a gratuitous >slam at the republicans. The problem indicated above has several sides. Republicans don't feel that government money should be easily available to people if it The Republicans anticipate .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 {provides a major benifit to an individual; or that people should be responsible and take care of themselves. The arguement for providing more funds to education --- and this would include student aid --- is that 1) without it, more people find it impossible to go to college; 2) people who manage to go to college will select careers which will pay off their huge debts (debts that most students would be saddled with for years); 3) the number of good american students going into science is dropping (greater percentage of foreign students filling the slots) which implies that a major resource for economic and military technical competition and advancement is not being developed (falls under the heading of an external economy --- expendatures that benifit the technological development and resource utilization efficiency of a society but which wouldn't benifit directly any one individual corporation significantly... who should pay for this advantage); 4) the burden for keeping good students shows up more and more on individual grants (making overhead higher and making it harder to get grants for new researchers). .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88  The above arguments are based on the concept of external economies. Passive regulations (such as patents and copyrights) encourage technological development by individual corporations since it allows companies to benifit individually from ideas which would otherwise be freely available to the society. Active programs such as the space program have yielded tens of thousands of dollars in spinoff technology contributions to our GNP for every tax dollar that went into the program (this was in '82; since then, the boom in PC's and other micro-technology that derives its start in NASA projects may be much greater). This isn't as true for closed research programs such as Star Wars in which research publication and commercial application is greatly restricted due to security considerations. > >-- >John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john individual corporation significantly... who should pay for this advantage); 4) the burden for keeping good students shows up more and more on individual grants (making overhead higher and making it harder to get grants for new researchers). .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 >(602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... >The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be >someone else's. The thing that bothers me the most about the attitude of the complaint that I'm responding to is that the author seems to feel that Park shouldn't express his opinion if it has any political content. However, the sources for physics research funds is largly derived from political considerations (at least in the university environment). Obviously, money is a hot issue that affects physics. So does political ideology. I don't challenge J. Moore's right to state his opinion. I do object to the suggestion that Park's comments should be devoid of political comment, and I feel that Park should be free to publish his opinion on the physics net any time he feels like it. I actually find his comments informative and interesting. Obviously he provokes discussion (which is also good). his advantage); 4) the burden for keeping good students shows up more and more on individual grants (making overhead higher and making it harder to get grants for new researchers). .` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 3 Dan Platt -------------------------------- }!ncar!... >The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be >someone else's. The thing that bothers me the most about the attitude of the complaint that I'm responding to is that the author seems to feel that Park shouldn't express his opinion if it has any political content. However, the sources for physics research funds is largly derived from political considerations (at least in the university environment). Obviously, money is a hot issue that affects physics. So does political ideology. I don't challenge J. Moore's right to state his opinion. I do object to the suggestion that Park's comments should be devoid of political comment, and I feel that Park should be free to publish his opinion on the physics net any time he feels like it. I actually find his comments informative and interesting. Obviously he provokes discussion (which is also good). his advantage); 4) the burden for keeping good students shows up more and more on individual grants (making overhead higher and making it harder to get grants for new researchers). .`5ĀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 22:02:53 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> [Regarding the lightning issue] The action that creates the electrostatic potential difference in clouds is the same one that creates the uncomfortable spark that you get from rubbing your feet on the wrong carpet. It's called the triboelectric effect. The atmospheric conditions in the `thundercloud' cause enough friction between the local constituents of the cloud to create the electrostatic potential. The electrons are redistributed throughout the cloud in patches. Some areas become negatively charged while others become positively charged. The negatively ionized areas then become free to discharge their electrons to the positively ionized areas (cloud-cloud lightning) or, depending on local ground potentials, to the earth (downward lightning strike). The positively ~G5ĀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ionized areas also create a situation whereby the electrostatic potential causes electrons to flow from the ground up (upward lightning strike). The mechanism that provides the path between locally ionized areas is a result of the extreme static differences between those areas. The powerful electric field causes portions of the surrounding atmosphere between the ionized areas to become conductive as it strips the valence electrons from the atoms. A series of ionized, conductive dendrites forms along the path of least resistance between the two areas and eventually connects the two together to form the conductive pathway over which the lightning bolt is discharged. The dendrites are accompanied by powerful electrostatic field which provides the warning of an impending lightning strike (if you are in a lightning storm and your hair stands on end, that means that there are dendrites looking to complete a path through or near your body, in which case the best thing to do is lay flat on the ground). All of the electrons involved are part of the `closed' electrical system of the Earth and therefore the various `paths' that they take from one part of the environment to the other are legion and, for the most part, undiscovered. However, we do know that ~G5ĀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff lightning is one of those paths, if not the most violent one. [Regarding batteries] Electrons will flow from one area to another only if a potential difference exists (disregarding the quantum effect). If batterry A has more electrons in it than battery B, then electrons will move from battery A to battery B since, by definition, an electric field exists between regions of different charge density (an electric field implies a voltage potential). As for a spark being created.........like someone said earlier, you're gonna hafta get a mighty big battery. Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all eld which provides the warning of an impending lightning strike (if you are in a lightning storm and your hair stands on end, that means that there are dendrites looking to complete a path through or near your body, in which case the best thing to do is lay flat on the ground). All of the electrons involved are part of the `closed' electrical system of the Earth and therefore the various `paths' that they take from one part of the environment to the other are legion and, for the most part, undiscovered. However, we do know that ~G5ĀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 19:21:25 GMT From: bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) Article-I.D.: <1018@buengc.BU.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In article <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) writes: > >[Regarding the lightning issue] >The action that creates the electrostatic potential difference in clouds >is the same one that creates the uncomfortable spark that you get from >rubbing your feet on the wrong carpet. It's called the triboelectric effect. >The atmospheric conditions in the `thundercloud' cause enough friction >between the local constituents of the cloud to create the electrostatic e warning of an impending lightning strike (if you are in a lightning storm and your hair stands on end, that means that there are dendrites looking to complete a path through or near your body, in which case the best thing to do is lay flat on the ground). All of the electrons involved are part of the `closed' electrical system of the Earth and therefore the various `paths' that they take from one part of the environment to the other are legion and, for the most part, undiscovered. However, we do know that ~G5ĀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff >potential. [fairly good description of the rest of lightning excised...] I'd just like to clarify that triboelectric induction occurs upon _contact_ between two materials, and rubbing the materials together just allows a greater effective contact surface; friction isn't the force of interest, here. --Blair "TE is also the downfall of my admiration for Ben Franklin, as though that kite fiasco wasn't enough..." -------------------------------- uncomfortable spark that you get from >rubbing your feet on the wrong carpet. It's called the triboelectric effect. >The atmospheric conditions in the `thundercloud' cause enough friction >between the local constituents of the cloud to create the electrostatic e warning of an impending lightning strike (if you are in a lightning storm and your hair stands on end, that means that there are dendrites looking to complete a path through or near your body, in which case the best thing to do is lay flat on the ground). All of the electrons involved are part of the `closed' electrical system of the Earth and therefore the various `paths' that they take from one part of the environment to the other are legion and, for the most part, undiscovered. However, we do know that ~G>pPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/02/88 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 88 23:46:50 GMT From: haven!uflorida!novavax!proxftl!bill@ames.arc.nasa.gov (T. William Wells) Article-I.D.: <742@proxftl.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12073@steinmetz.ge.com> <660@eplrx7.UUCP> In article <660@eplrx7.UUCP> wyant@eplrx7.UUCP (Pat Wyant) writes: : A second problem with a delay is that the scientists and engineers : involved are not getting any younger. While it may be true that the : crowd or species is all that matters in the long run, to the individuals : involved there is little consolation for missing this opportunity through : no fault of their own. Shall we also note that they would be getting this telescope launched through no virtue of their own? For those of you with the flame-throwers: I am not saying that the scientists aren't good scientists, I am saying that the avowed purpose of the T/@>pPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/02/88 government is to serve the public good, and the virtue of the scientists is quite irrelevant to this goal. Collectivism cuts both ways, guys. --- Bill novavax!proxftl!bill -------------------------------- o: Article(s) <12073@steinmetz.ge.com> <660@eplrx7.UUCP> In article <660@eplrx7.UUCP> wyant@eplrx7.UUCP (Pat Wyant) writes: : A second problem with a delay is that the scientists and engineers : involved are not getting any younger. While it may be true that the : crowd or species is all that matters in the long run, to the individuals : involved there is little consolation for missing this opportunity through : no fault of their own. Shall we also note that they would be getting this telescope launched through no virtue of their own? For those of you with the flame-throwers: I am not saying that the scientists aren't good scientists, I am saying that the avowed purpose of the T/@@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Those little dimensions ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 23:54:54 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <1957@iscuva.ISCS.COM> I like to picture those little extra dimensions this way: Using three dimensional tools to measure the shape of an electron (say) we find that it is a sphere. Our observations are limited by the Plank length and the Uncertainty Principle. All this means is that we can't SEE anything smaller.........it doesn't mean that there ISN'T anything smaller. Now, (stretch your imagination), we have a magic tool that allows us to SEE features smaller than the Plank length. There are already procedures in existance to minimize the effects of the Uncertainty Principle related &+`@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Those little dimensions hto direct observations. Using this magic tool, we see that the electron is not spherical at all but has the shape of a toroid. Since this must be the true shape of the electron, and since in normal 3D space it looks like a sphere, we must incorporate 3 `new' dimensions to describe the `true' shape of the electron. These dimensions are `really small' and could be described as `folded' or `rolled up', since they are smaller than the Plank length and unobservable in ordinary 3D space. To put it a different way: In three spacial dimensions, an electron looks mathematically like a sphere. However, in six dimensions it takes on the mathematical appearance of a toroid. To look at it in the proposed 10 spacial dimensions, it would appear, mathematically as something entirely different (don't ask me what). Well, maybe it helps.....maybe not..... &+`@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Those little dimensions Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- cribe the `true' shape of the electron. These dimensions are `really small' and could be described as `folded' or `rolled up', since they are smaller than the Plank length and unobservable in ordinary 3D space. To put it a different way: In three spacial dimensions, an electron looks mathematically like a sphere. However, in six dimensions it takes on the mathematical appearance of a toroid. To look at it in the proposed 10 spacial dimensions, it would appear, mathematically as something entirely different (don't ask me what). Well, maybe it helps.....maybe not..... &+`]+PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Unsubscribe 3---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 88 05:33:30 PDT From: desmond@cod.nosc.mil (J. Desmond) ------- Please unsubscribe me from the sci.physics mailing list. Thank you. -John M. Desmond desmond@nosc.mil ------- -------------------------------- W`S/ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero M---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 88 11:57 EST From: X-Original-To: physics@unix.sri.com, JPOULIN I have a little confusion that I would like to have cleared: As I understand absolute zero (from what I've been told), it's the state of minimum entropy in a system. Its energy is not zero, but it cannot be reduced. My confusion is that absolute zero is the same temperature for all materials regardless of chemistry. How do these materials know to be at their lowest energy at this point? Is there a simple description of what happens to matter so that lowest energy states all converge at the point we call 0 Kelvin? In other words, why can't material A be at its lowest energy state at temperature T1 and material B be at its r_S/ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero lowest energy state at temperature T2 (T1 not equal to T2)? I suspect that I am grossly misusing the concepts of temperature and entropy so any clarification would be welcome. -------------------------------- fusion that I would like to have cleared: As I understand absolute zero (from what I've been told), it's the state of minimum entropy in a system. Its energy is not zero, but it cannot be reduced. My confusion is that absolute zero is the same temperature for all materials regardless of chemistry. How do these materials know to be at their lowest energy at this point? Is there a simple description of what happens to matter so that lowest energy states all converge at the point we call 0 Kelvin? In other words, why can't material A be at its lowest energy state at temperature T1 and material B be at its r_x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 . AIList Digest Thursday, 15 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 84 Mathematics and Logic: The Ignorant assumption (leftover Religion) (5 messages) Rules .vs. axioms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Sep 88 03:40:56 GMT From: s.cc.purdue.edu!afo@h.cc.purdue.edu (Neil Rhodes) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption In a previous article, Greg Lee writes: >From article <1383@garth.UUCP>, by smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan): >" That's it. Any formal system requires such assumptions. ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 8> >Well, I would say that some natural deduction systems of logic have >no assumptions -- only rules of derivation. But you can probably >find a definition of 'assumption' that makes what you say true. > I have a problem with Mr. Lee's reasoning in the above statement, and it seems to be the foundation of most of his recent arguments. If a formal system were to contain "only rules of derivation," what would these rules act upon to form statements (theorems) about the system? Rules alone in a formal system give you nothing. For this reason, you need a given set of statements (axioms) from which these rules can derive other statements (theorems). Since these axioms are not derived and are necessary to the formal system, then you must "believe" them to be true while working within the system. ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 Since many scientific statements are derived within formal systems, to believe these statements you must also believe other statements which cannot be proved. If Mr. Lee still believes that science asks us to take nothing on "faith," then I am curious to know what flaws he finds in *my* reasoning. -- Neil Rhodes afo@s.cc.purdue.edu ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 88 14:27:25 GMT From: uhccux!lee@humu.nosc.mil (Greg Lee) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption Rules alone in a formal system give you nothing. For this reason, you need a given set of statements (axioms) from which these rules can derive other statements (theorems). Since these axioms are not derived and are necessary to the formal system, then you must "believe" them to be true while working within the system. ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84  From article <3546@s.cc.purdue.edu>, by afo@s.cc.purdue.edu (Neil Rhodes): " ... " I have a problem with Mr. Lee's reasoning in the above statement, and it " seems to be the foundation of most of his recent arguments. " " If a formal system were to contain "only rules of derivation," what would " these rules act upon to form statements (theorems) about the system? " Rules alone in a formal system give you nothing. For this reason, you They give you nothing but tautologies, at least. " need a given set of statements (axioms) from which these rules can derive " other statements (theorems). Since these axioms are not derived and are " necessary to the formal system, then you must "believe" them to be true " while working within the system. them to be true while working within the system. ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 There are formalizations of logic that require axioms, but not all do. Gerhard Gentzen created systems that have no axioms. For instance: Suppose p (one can introduce provisional assumptions freely) Conclude p (one can repeat an assumption as a conclusion) So, p implies p (since p was concluded on the basis of the provisional assumption p, one can derive the implication) " Since many scientific statements are derived within formal systems, to " believe these statements you must also believe other statements which " cannot be proved. Perhaps that's so. My example does not concern "scientific statements". I was reacting to a statement that "formal systems" require assumptions. They don't -- maybe formalized scientific systems do, in a sense, but even there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 above. As you will observe, a Gentzen system does involve assumptions, but no specific assumption is given as part of the system. That is, there are no axioms. " If Mr. Lee still believes that science asks us to take nothing on ""faith," then I am curious to know what flaws he finds in *my* " reasoning. I find no flaws. If you are to have faith in scientific conclusions, you must have faith in scientific assumptions. But why have faith in anything? Why does "science ask us" to do this? If you have a need to believe in things, other than tautologies, I think you ought not to lay this at the door of science. It's a personal problem, which I think you should try to get over. require assumptions. They don't -- maybe formalized scientific systems do, in a sense, but even there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84  Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 88 10:32:39 GMT From: l.cc.purdue.edu!cik@k.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption In a previous article, Greg Lee writes: > From article <3546@s.cc.purdue.edu>, by afo@s.cc.purdue.edu (Neil Rhodes): .................... < " Rules alone in a formal system give you nothing. For this reason, you > They give you nothing but tautologies, at least. < " need a given set of statements (axioms) from which these rules can derive < " other statements (theorems). Since these axioms are not derived and are think you should try to get over. require assumptions. They don't -- maybe formalized scientific systems do, in a sense, but even there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 < " necessary to the formal system, then you must "believe" them to be true < " while working within the system. > There are formalizations of logic that require axioms, but not all > do. Gerhard Gentzen created systems that have no axioms. For > instance: > Suppose p (one can introduce provisional assumptions freely) > Conclude p (one can repeat an assumption as a conclusion) > So, p implies p (since p was concluded on the basis of the provisional > assumption p, one can derive the implication) In a treatment of natural deduction mentioned above, one shows that The customary axioms and axiom schemes are derivable. The customary rules of derivation are valid. They don't -- maybe formalized scientific systems do, in a sense, but even there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 A Any theorem provable by natural deduction can be proved by using the customary axioms, axiom schemes, and rules of derivation. However, starting with a set of axioms and no rules, nothing more can be derived. Thus we see that rules are stronger than axioms. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907 Phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@l.cc.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet, UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 88 15:17:45 GMT From: glacier!jbn@labrea.stanford.edu (John B. Nagle) Subject: Re: Rules vs axioms tioned above, one shows that The customary axioms and axiom schemes are derivable. The customary rules of derivation are valid. They don't -- maybe formalized scientific systems do, in a sense, but even there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 & In theorem proving, previously proved theorems are often used, correctly, as rewrite rules. Free addition of new "axioms" to theorem proving systems generally results in unsoundness. As Boyer and Moore once wrote, "It is one thing to use axioms about a concept known to mathematics for a century. It is quite another to write down axioms about an idea invented yesterday." See Boyer and Moore's "A Computational Logic" for the constructivist's way of avoiding this problem. Attempts to use the theorem proving paradigm in less formal domains were made in the late 70s and early 80s, but without notable success. John Nagle ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 88 00:07:50 GMT From: garth!smryan@unix.sri.com (Steven Ryan) there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption >There are formalizations of logic that require axioms, but not all >do. Gerhard Gentzen created systems that have no axioms. For >instance: > Suppose p (one can introduce provisional assumptions freely) > Conclude p (one can repeat an assumption as a conclusion) > So, p implies p (since p was concluded on the basis of the provisional > assumption p, one can derive the implication) Well, I see an assumption--it assumes the existence of a formal system. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 88 00:26:44 GMT From: garth!smryan@unix.sri.com (Steven Ryan) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption hn Nagle ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 88 00:07:50 GMT From: garth!smryan@unix.sri.com (Steven Ryan) there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 p >" Isn't adopting provisional assumptions an act of faith? > >Not really. Consider the provisional assumption of a reductio ad >absurdum argument. > >" ... I define faith as adopting assumptions without proof. > >It's an odd definition -- if we adopt it, we are led to the conclusion >that all of us have faith and are therefore religious. > >" That's it. Any formal system requires such assumptions. > >Well, I would say that some natural deduction systems of logic have >no assumptions -- only rules of derivation. But you can probably >find a definition of 'assumption' that makes what you say true. com (Steven Ryan) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption hn Nagle ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 88 00:07:50 GMT From: garth!smryan@unix.sri.com (Steven Ryan) there assumptions can be treated as provisional rather than as axioms. This is not to disagree with what Neil Rhodes said just ?x AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #84 ~I really was hoping people would be content with an intentionally imprecise and informal discussion. If we want to be rigourous, I think it is important to define a process. I will propose: A process P is an orderred triple (S,M,Q). S is a undefined set (of states). M is a set of pdfs m:S->[0,1]. Q is a relation on MxM called transistions, denoted m->n. P is probablistic if for any m,s, 0n. P is probablistic if for any m,s, 0 In-Reply-To: Article(s) <44400028@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk< <2801@pt.cs.cmu.edu< <16223@apple.Apple.COM< <1044@bucket.UUCP< <1384@pur-phy> In article <1384@pur-phy> sho@newton.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Sho Kuwamoto) writes:  Computer Science and Mathematics Departments The University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242, U.S.A. The submissions must be received by February 1, 1989 and the notifications of acceptance will be sent by March 15, 1989. The authors should include a return postal address and an electronic mail address if it is available. A special issue of the journal ``Theoretical Computer Sci- ence'' will be dedicated to this conference and each parti- cipant will be invited to submit a full paper for publica- tion. Further information can be obtained from: In Canada: In Europe: In U.S.A: ======================================================================== Prof. Dan Ionescu Prof. Maurice Nivat Prof. Eugene Madison, Math. [s`THEORYNET cr@CS.STIR.AC.UK Call for Abstracts -- Internat University of Ottawa Universite Paris Prof. Teodor Rus, Comp.Sci. Department of& 2, Place Jussieu University of Iowa Electrical Engineering 75005 Paris, France Iowa City, IA 52242 770 King Edward, OTTAWA Phone: (1) 43259874 Phone: (319)-335-0694 Ont. Canada K1N 6N5 e-mail: Phone: (613)-564-2211 rus@herky.cs.uiowa.edu Sci- ence'' will be dedicated to this conference and each parti- cipant will be invited to submit a full paper for publica- tion. Further information can be obtained from: In Canada: In Europe: In U.S.A: ======================================================================== Prof. Dan Ionescu Prof. Maurice Nivat Prof. Eugene Madison, Math. [UJ`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM cancer -- radiation therapy / ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 21:52:22 GMT From: eli@spdcc.COM (Steve Elias) Article-I.D.: <1861@spdcc.COM> no flames about crossposting. *please!* if anyone has information on research in the areas described below, please followup to sci.med. >In article <6239@dasys1.UUCP>, tbetz@dasys1.UUCP (Tom Betz) writes: > >There is considerable evidence that radioactive cancer treatments cause more >cancers than they cure, and modern medicine is increasingly looking to other, >safer approaches to that sort of illness. So we can do away with them as well, >quite successfully; by the turn of the next century, we probably will have. the statistical effects of radiation don't mean much ~r UJ`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM cancer -- radiation therapy / S to the individual who does have a cancer cured by radiation. i don't think we'll be 'doing away with' radiation therapy by the turn of the century. is anyone seriously expecting an 'anti-cancer' vaccine? early detection seems to be the key in fighting cancer. i believe that advances in NMR and parallel processing computers will combine to enable *very* early detection. specifically: parallel approaches to interpreting NMR data which include time domain data as well as 3D data. does anyone know of any research in this area? -------------------------------- away with them as well, >quite successfully; by the turn of the next century, we probably will have. the statistical effects of radiation don't mean much ~r ߩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "Will it keep on ticking?" 0---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 15:54:04 GMT From: mcvax!unido!altger!Macros@UUNet.UU.NET (Mike Hoffmann) Article-I.D.: <963@altger.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <5443@sdcrdcf.sm.unisys.com.UUCP> Organization: Altos Computer Systems Munich Keywords: <5443@sdcrdcf.sm.unisys.com.UUCP> jonf@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Jonathan Fellows) writes: >I recently bought a non-name-brand sport watch with stop watch >capabilities that is rated for 50 meters. I purchased it at Big 5 >sporting goods in Los Angeles for about $10.00, making it the cheapest >piece of dive gear I own. It survived its first day of diving, with >depths of sixty feet and less, with no problems. I strapped it to my I don't know... It sure doesn't have to be Spiro or Draeger, in fact my Cj ߩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "Will it keep on ticking?" Mares regulator is one of the cheapest, but also considered one of the best, but what if your el-cheapo watch decides to give up its life right in the middle of a 90 feet dive? You could be in serious trouble then and no way of saying "oh to hell with it I'll buy the next one" Of course if you intend to stay above 30 feet, there's not much danger involved. Mike -- ! Mike Hoffmann ! It's difficult to soar with Eagles ! ! Fasangartenstr. 102 ! when you have to work with Turkeys ! ! D-8000 Munich !----------------------------------------------! ! West Germany ! ...!altger!chiuur!krondor!mike ! hs of sixty feet and less, with no problems. I strapped it to my I don't know... It sure doesn't have to be Spiro or Draeger, in fact my Cj ߩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "Will it keep on ticking?" $ -------------------------------- st, but also considered one of the best, but what if your el-cheapo watch decides to give up its life right in the middle of a 90 feet dive? You could be in serious trouble then and no way of saying "oh to hell with it I'll buy the next one" Of course if you intend to stay above 30 feet, there's not much danger involved. Mike -- ! Mike Hoffmann ! It's difficult to soar with Eagles ! ! Fasangartenstr. 102 ! when you have to work with Turkeys ! ! D-8000 Munich !----------------------------------------------! ! West Germany ! ...!altger!chiuur!krondor!mike ! hs of sixty feet and less, with no problems. I strapped it to my I don't know... It sure doesn't have to be Spiro or Draeger, in fact my Cj 9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 88 23:51:00 GMT From: bucc2!spock@a.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <15900027@bucc2> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3307@homxc.UUCP> >First, there is no evidence that even the normal 4 dimensions "go on forever". >If the curvature of spacetime is positive (closed universe) the are maximum >values for space and time dimensions. (think of a sphere, the is a maximum >distance) Ok, they go to the edge of the universe. What's past that? no, dimensions? All eleven? (I realize nobody knows, but I'm still curious...) Would physical theories even take this into account or am I correct in assuming that they are bounded by the edge of our universe? 4j9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl>Second the "rolled up" bit means that ALONG THOSE DIMENSIONS the distance >"around" the universe is that incredibly small distance you mentioned. So >these ideas about jumping to other parts of the universe via the "small" >dimensions is nonsense. (unless you have a way of "leaving" the hyper- >surface of this hyper-cylinder and "returning". And then it'll only work >if the hyper-cylinder is very tangled in some higher space. And the ods >are that you couldn't control *where* you returned...) This seems to be saying that each point in the universe has "it's own" collapsed multi-dimensions. When they curled up did they stay at one point? Are these dimensions that collapsed at each point in the universe and REAL tiny? If so, then there would be an inconcievable number of tiny universes at each of these points. Ya know, I think I just found a theory to add to my list of things to do: 1. Learn the math for relativity. 4j9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littlV2. Learn relativity. 3. Learn Quantum Theory. 4. Learn string theory. maybe I'll add "write a plan for interstellar exploration" next week after I finish this list..... ----- Joe Christensen Bradley University physics student Season your words with {attmail,cepu,noao,uiucdcs}!bradley!bucc2!spock the salt of kindness... 1739 Kinross Ln. Ft.Wayne In 46804 Someday YOU may have to (309)-677-1235 (but does it LOOK official?) eat them... ...and what if I AM a physics major? -------------------------------- imensions. When they curled up did they stay at one point? Are these dimensions that collapsed at each point in the universe and REAL tiny? If so, then there would be an inconcievable number of tiny universes at each of these points. Ya know, I think I just found a theory to add to my list of things to do: 1. Learn the math for relativity. 4ju`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES A---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 20:16:24 GMT From: tim@attdso.ATT.COM (Tim J Ihde) Article-I.D.: <582@attdso.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> dekleer.pa@Xerox.COM writes: >Suppose for some reason we had a >tractor beam which fixed the centers of the earth and moon. In this >case the water further away from the moon feels less gravitational >attraction than the rigid earth, but this WOULD NOT result in a bulge >away from the moon. Indeed there would only be one bulge facing the >moon. When I took astronomy, this was explained to me this way. The earth is a body being acted upon by a gravitational force. Gravity is a funny thing, and works according to an inverse square law. That is, the greater the ]u`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES [distance between the two objects in question, the less the force. Not just some minute amount, but a _lot_ less. Add to this the fact that the earth is NOT a mathematical "point", but is spread out over a large volume. The difference in gravitational pull over this volume is very measurable. Now, given this situation, consider yourself standing on the surface of the earth. If you are on the side facing the moon, then you are an entire earth radii CLOSER to the moon than most of the earth. You therefor have MORE gravitational force acting on you than on most of the earth, and you will have a tendency to bulge TOWARD the moon. If you are water, then this will result in an easily noticeable rise (measurable even in solid ground; I don't recall how much). There - that was the easy part. Suppose now that you are on the opposite side of the earth from the moon. The entire above argument w.r.t. you is now applicable to the earth. That is, you are now one earth radii FARTHER from the moon than the center of the earth. You therefor have LESS gravitational force acting on you than ]u`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES on the earth, and the earth will have a tendency to leave you behind - so you bulge AWAY from the earth. >Just draw the force vectors on a piece of water (assume constant >depth on a spherical rigid earth). Just qualitatively, every piece of >water except the infinitesmal column precisely away from the moon has a >tangential component towards the face facing the moon. But there are a great many pieces of water. Each and every one feels a force toward the moon. It's just that the pieces closer to the moon feel more force than those farther away, so the earth spreads out in the direction of the moon. They're all falling to the moon, some parts are just falling faster than others. In other words, the first tide is caused by water being pulled away from the earth; while the second tide is caused by the earth being pulled away from the water on the opposite side. All because the gravitational pull ow applicable to the earth. That is, you are now one earth radii FARTHER from the moon than the center of the earth. You therefor have LESS gravitational force acting on you than ]u`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES +of the moon is not constant across any distance. >The point I am making is that no account of the tides could be accurate >without taking into account of the fact that the earth is constantly >accelerating --- i.e., the earth-moon system rotates around a common >(bary-) center. The earth at any one time is accelerating directly towards the location of the moon at that same exact time (ignoring other effects for the moment). It is the AMOUNT of acceleration that varies across the volume of the earth. Above I was thinking with forces; you can divide those paragraphs by the mass of the earth and work with acceleration if you like - you get the same result. -- Tim J Ihde att!attdso!tim (201) 898-6687 tim@attdso.att.com This disclaimer intentionally left blank. attmail!tihde ide is caused by the earth being pulled away from the water on the opposite side. All because the gravitational pull ow applicable to the earth. That is, you are now one earth radii FARTHER from the moon than the center of the earth. You therefor have LESS gravitational force acting on you than ]u`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES & -------------------------------- distance. >The point I am making is that no account of the tides could be accurate >without taking into account of the fact that the earth is constantly >accelerating --- i.e., the earth-moon system rotates around a common >(bary-) center. The earth at any one time is accelerating directly towards the location of the moon at that same exact time (ignoring other effects for the moment). It is the AMOUNT of acceleration that varies across the volume of the earth. Above I was thinking with forces; you can divide those paragraphs by the mass of the earth and work with acceleration if you like - you get the same result. -- Tim J Ihde att!attdso!tim (201) 898-6687 tim@attdso.att.com This disclaimer intentionally left blank. attmail!tihde ide is caused by the earth being pulled away from the water on the opposite side. All because the gravitational pull ow applicable to the earth. That is, you are now one earth radii FARTHER from the moon than the center of the earth. You therefor have LESS gravitational force acting on you than ]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 23:51:11 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> More on lightning from the Lightning Protection Institute: Anatomy of a Lightning Flash A thunder bolt, technically a lightning flash, begins when a faintly visible negative stepped leader stroke stabs downward to earth in erratic steps averaging 150 feet. When the tip of the leader stroke is a step above the ground or above a grounded object, at least one positive streamer shoots up to meet it. oe2PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff This completes an ionized air channel between clouds and earth. Immediately, a blinding positive return stroke flashes upward from the earth to cloud as the negative charge laid along the ionized channel by the stepped leader stoke flows to earth. During a typical lightning flash of four tenths of a second, three sets of downward negative leader strokes and upward positive return strokes zip between cloud and earth [this explains why lightning dims and brightens as the flash continues - jk]. A "cold bolt" is a flash with few component strokes and a brief duration. a "hot bolt" has as many as 10 or more negative-positive stroke sequences and as much as a full second or more of duration. Lightning fires and stuctural damage are caused by heat up to 30,000 and even 50,000 [!] degrees Fahrenheit which causes an explosion of the air in the ionized channel. It is the noise of that explosion that you hear oe2PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff as thunder. A typical flash of 25,000 amperes and 30,000,000 [that's million] volts leaps miles through resistant air. Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- tween cloud and earth [this explains why lightning dims and brightens as the flash continues - jk]. A "cold bolt" is a flash with few component strokes and a brief duration. a "hot bolt" has as many as 10 or more negative-positive stroke sequences and as much as a full second or more of duration. Lightning fires and stuctural damage are caused by heat up to 30,000 and even 50,000 [!] degrees Fahrenheit which causes an explosion of the air in the ionized channel. It is the noise of that explosion that you hear oe2ef PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM What's News? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 88 08:28:24 PDT From: jdjohnson%nscl%msuhep.hepnet@LBL.Gov X-St-Vmsmail-To: MSUHEP::LBL::"PHYSICS@UNIX.SRI.COM" Opinions are good things to have. It is good to be able to express your opinions. And, a vocal majority on this mailing list feels that the physics mailing list is the proper place to voice your political opinions. It annoys me, however, that Mr. Parks continues to confuse NEWS and personal opinions. In fact, there are times when it seems that he is bucking for a medal from the ACLU (my own opinion, no need to argue the point). Mr. Parks also concludes his "NEWS" columns by signing them AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, although he never once has (to my knowledge) used terms such as "member poll", or "survey". What is being done is pure and obvious editorializing. However, this mailing list finds that %ef PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM What's News? appropriate. The solution? If you have a political opinion that remotely deals with physics, send an editorial to the physics mailing list. In fact, what I would like to see is for someone to come up with their own "news" column on a weekly or monthly basis. Regardless of your political bent, type up a page or two of what you think about what is going on in the news (let's agree to mention the word physics once or twice in it) and distribute it directly to the net. I will look forward to reading it. Oh, and if you are a member of APS, make sure to sign it American Physical Society... Mr. Parks has set the precedent. John Johnson, APS Member P.S. - Didn't someone come up with their own column a year or so ago?? I seem to recall enjoying that immensely. rms such as "member poll", or "survey". What is being done is pure and obvious editorializing. However, this mailing list finds that %ef PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM What's News? $ -------------------------------- ou have a political opinion that remotely deals with physics, send an editorial to the physics mailing list. In fact, what I would like to see is for someone to come up with their own "news" column on a weekly or monthly basis. Regardless of your political bent, type up a page or two of what you think about what is going on in the news (let's agree to mention the word physics once or twice in it) and distribute it directly to the net. I will look forward to reading it. Oh, and if you are a member of APS, make sure to sign it American Physical Society... Mr. Parks has set the precedent. John Johnson, APS Member P.S. - Didn't someone come up with their own column a year or so ago?? I seem to recall enjoying that immensely. rms such as "member poll", or "survey". What is being done is pure and obvious editorializing. However, this mailing list finds that %ЀPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute zero B---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Sep 88 14:48:08 GMT From: pyramid!decwrl!labrea!hanauma!rick@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Ottolini) Article-I.D.: <23464@labrea.Stanford.EDU> A laser-cooling research review article in a recent article of Science used an operational definition of absolute zero as particle velocity equal to zero. They catch atoms between several laser beams and cool them to about 4-E-5 K. The limit of this method is that a photon emmission recoil is about 2-E-6 K. -------------------------------- ` AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85  AIList Digest Friday, 16 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 85 Seminars: Expert Systems for Agriculture Workshop Parallel Symbolic Computing Using Multilisp The Representation of Pronouns and Definite Noun Phrases ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Sep 88 10:43:34 CDT From: dale@topaz.tamu.edu (A. Dale Whittaker) Subject: Expert Systems for Agriculture Workshop A first-of-its-kind workshop on the integration of expert systems with ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 3conventional problem solving techniques for agricultural problems was held in San Antonio, Texas on August 10 through 12, 1988. This workshop was supported by the American Association for Artificial Intelligence (AAAI) and by the Knowledge Systems Area of the American Society of Agricultural Engineering (ASAE). The meeting was part of the AAAI workshop series on applied topics and was focused toward agriculture. Agriculture is an area of enormous potential for appli- cations of integrated knowledge-based/conventional technolo- gies. For example, excellent databases are available for information ranging from historical weather data to indivi- dual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 h - assess the state-of-the-art of integrated systems for agriculture. - determine what factors are necessary to advance the state-of-the-art. - expose research needs and opportunities for the future. - form an interdisciplinary core of researchers for future communication and collaboration. A wide variety of research organizations were represented at the meeting including: Department of Entomology, Texas A&M University databases are available for information ranging from historical weather data to indivi- dual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 B Department of Entomology, University of Massachusetts School of Computer Science, Rochester Institute of Technology Department of Statistics, North Carolina State Univer- sity Agricultural Engineering Department, Texas A&M Univer- sity Honeywell-Bull, Knowledge Engineering Services Texas Agricultural Experiment Station United States Dept. of Agri., Agricultural Research of Entomology, Texas A&M University databases are available for information ranging from historical weather data to indivi- dual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 H Service (Texas, Arizona, Nebraska) International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center, Cali, Columbia Animal Science Department, Oklahoma State University Department of Agricultural and Applied Economics, Univ. of Minn. Department of Agricultural Economics, Univ. of Arkansas Agricultural Engineering Department, Purdue University Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, Univ. of Fla. tomology, Texas A&M University databases are available for information ranging from historical weather data to indivi- dual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85  Topics presented included: The state of the Art and Future of Symbolic and Numeric Computation: Hardware Industry Viewpoint EASY-MACS: A Knowledge-based System Supporting IPM Decision Making in Apples Integrating a Knowledge-based Meat Grading System with a Voice-input Device Expert System and Conventional Programming Methods for Small Farm Planning A Blackboard Approach for Integrating Expert Systems with Conventional Problem Solving Techniques formation ranging from historical weather data to indivi- dual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85  The State of the Art and Future of Symbolic and Numeric Computation: Software Industry Viewpoint The Use of Expert System Techniques and Database Files to Produce Customized Decision Aid Software COTFLEX: An Integrated Expert and Database System for Decision Support in Texas Cotton Production Use of an Expert System to Derive Pesticide Groundwater Contamination Recommendations An Expert System to Elicit Risk Preferences: The Futility of Utility Revisited Developing Integrated Decision Support Systems Using ual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 " Prolog Decision Analysis as a Tool for Integrating Simulation with Expert Systems When Risk and Uncertainty are Important Farm Application of GOSSYM/COMAX Integrated Expert System for Culling Management of Beef Cows **************************************************************************** For more information concerning the workshop, contact: A. Dale Whittaker Agricultural Engineering Dept. An Expert System to Elicit Risk Preferences: The Futility of Utility Revisited Developing Integrated Decision Support Systems Using ual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77843-2117 dale@topaz.tamu.edu (409)845-8379 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Sep 88 16:35:08 EDT From: "Peter Mager" Subject: Parallel Symbolic Computing Using Multilisp The following seminar may be of interest to AI list subscribers: ACM GREATER BOSTON CHAPTER SICPLAN Thursday, September 8, 1988 he workshop, contact: A. Dale Whittaker Agricultural Engineering Dept. An Expert System to Elicit Risk Preferences: The Futility of Utility Revisited Developing Integrated Decision Support Systems Using ual dairy cow records. Complex simulations have been developed to describe phenomena ranging from plant growth to economic systems. These investments are a valuable asset as knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85  8 P.M. Bolt Beranek and Newman, Newman auditorium 70 Fawcett St., Cambridge Parallel Symbolic Computing Using Multilisp Robert H. Halstead, Jr. Laboratory for Computer Science MIT Multilisp is an extension of the Lisp dialect Scheme with additional operators and additional semantics for parallel execution. The principal parallelism construct in Multilisp is the "future," which exhibits some features of both eager and lazy evaluation. Multilisp has been implemented, and runs on the shared-memory Concert multiprocessor, using as many as 34 processors. The implementation uses interesting techniques for task knowledge sources for knowledge-based decision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85  scheduling and garbage collection. The task scheduler helps control excessive resource utilization by means of an unfair scheduling policy; the garbage collector uses a multiprocessor algorithm modeled after the incremental garbage collector of Baker. Current work focuses on making Multilisp a more humane programming environment, on expanding the power of Multilisp to express task scheduling policies, and on measuring the properties of Multilisp programs with the goal of designing a parallel architecture well tailored for efficient Multilisp execution. The talk will briefly describe Multilisp, discuss the areas of current activity, and outline the direction of the Multilisp project with special attention to the areas of task scheduling and architecture design. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 13 Sep 88 15:58:37-EDT ecision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 bFrom: Marc Vilain Subject: The Representation of Pronouns and Definite Noun Phrases BBN Science Development Program AI Seminar Series Lecture THE REPRESENTATION OF PRONOUNS AND DEFINITE NOUN PHRASES IN LOGICAL FORM Mary P. Harper Brown University Computer Science Dept. (MPH%cs.brown.edu@RELAY.CS.NET) BBN Labs 10 Moulton Street ell tailored for efficient Multilisp execution. The talk will briefly describe Multilisp, discuss the areas of current activity, and outline the direction of the Multilisp project with special attention to the areas of task scheduling and architecture design. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 13 Sep 88 15:58:37-EDT ecision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85  2nd floor large conference room 10:30 am, Thursday September 15 Initially, I will discuss the representation of pronouns in logical form. Two factors influence the representation of pronouns. The first factor is computational. This factor imposes certain requirements on the logical form representation of a pronoun. For example, the initial representation of a pronoun in logical form should be derivable before its antecedent is known. The antecedent, when determined, should be specified in a way consistent with the initial representation of the pronoun. The second factor is linguistic. This factor requires that the representation for a pronoun should be capable of expressing the range of behaviors of a pronoun in English, especially in the domain of verb phrase ellipsis. I will review past models of verb phrase ellipsis. These models do -------------------------- Date: Tue 13 Sep 88 15:58:37-EDT ecision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 not provide a representation of pronouns for computational purposes, and accordingly fail to meet our computational requirements. Additionally, I will show that these models fail to represent pronouns in a way which captures the full range of behaviors of pronouns. I will then propose a new representation for pronouns and show how this representation meets our computational requirements while providing a better model of pronouns in verb phrase ellipsis. The representation of definite noun phrases will also be discussed. As in the case of pronouns, there are two factors which influence this representation (i.e. modeling definite behavior and obeying our computational guidelines). I will discuss several examples which argue for representing definites as functions in logical form before pronoun resolution is carried out. I will discuss the actual representation I chose, and illustrate its use with an example. Date: Tue 13 Sep 88 15:58:37-EDT ecision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #85 P------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** dingly fail to meet our computational requirements. Additionally, I will show that these models fail to represent pronouns in a way which captures the full range of behaviors of pronouns. I will then propose a new representation for pronouns and show how this representation meets our computational requirements while providing a better model of pronouns in verb phrase ellipsis. The representation of definite noun phrases will also be discussed. As in the case of pronouns, there are two factors which influence this representation (i.e. modeling definite behavior and obeying our computational guidelines). I will discuss several examples which argue for representing definites as functions in logical form before pronoun resolution is carried out. I will discuss the actual representation I chose, and illustrate its use with an example. Date: Tue 13 Sep 88 15:58:37-EDT ecision making. The primary goals of this meeting were to: ٦ THEORYNET dsj@RESEARCH.ATT.COM Call for Candidates L------------------------------------------------------------------------- *** CALL FOR CANDIDATES *** SIGACT will be having its semi-annual elections next Spring, and now is the time for would-be candidates to identify themselves to the Nominating Committee, chaired by Zvi Galil of the Department of Computer Science, Columbia University, New York, NY 10027 (and past SIGACT Chair). The 5 positions that will be contested are: Chair Vice-Chair Secretary-Treasurer 2 Members-at-Large To qualify, you must be a member of SIGACT and ACM and be prepared w!THEORYNET dsj@RESEARCH.ATT.COM Call for Candidates to do some work on behalf of the organization (especially in the top three jobs). SIGACT's success depends on the quality and energy of its leadership, and we are always looking for new faces, so if you would like to get involved, please let Zvi know. His email address is galil@cs.columbia.edu, his phone number is 212-280-8191, or you can talk to him directly at the upcoming FOCS meeting in White Plains. ********************************************************************* (P.S.: Under another recently acquired hat, Zvi is also now accepting submissions to the JOURNAL OF ALGORITHMS, where he has replaced Herb Wilf as managing editor.) w!  THEORYNET DEHNE%CARLETON.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU CALL FOR PAPERS - WADS '89 C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS Workshop on Algorithms and Data Structures August 16-18, 1989 Carleton University Ottawa, Canada The Workshop, which continues the 1988 Scandinavian Workshop on Algorithm Theory, is intended as a forum for researchers in the area of design and analysis of algorithms and data structures. t䄠  THEORYNET DEHNE%CARLETON.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU CALL FOR PAPERS - WADS '89  We invite submissions of papers presenting original research on algorithms and data structures in all areas, including combinatorics, computational geometry, databases, graphics, parallel and distributed computing. Contributors are invited to send 4 copies of a full paper (not exceeding 12 pages) to Workshop on Algorithms and Data Structures School of Computer Science Carleton University Ottawa, Canada K1S 5B6 tel.: (613) 564-7545, e-mail: workshop@carleton.bitnet Submissions must arrive before March 15, 1989. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by April 30, 1989. Proceedings will be published, possibly in the Springer Verlag series Lecture Notes in t䄠  THEORYNET DEHNE%CARLETON.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU CALL FOR PAPERS - WADS '89 Computer Science. The final versions of accepted papers must arrive in camera-ready form before May 25, 1989, to ensure the availability of the proceedings at the conference. Invited Speakers: Michael Atallah (Purdue), Luc Devroye (McGill), Herbert Edelsbrunner (Urbana Champaign), Gaston Gonnet (Waterloo), Jan van Leeuwen (Utrecht), Chee Yap (Courant Institute). Program Committee: Selim Akl (Queen's), Frank Dehne (Carleton), Greg Fredrickson (Purdue), David Kirkpatrick (UBC), Andrzej Lingas (Linkoeping), Kurt Mehlhorn (U. des Saarlandes), Ian Munro (Waterloo), Joerg-Ruediger Sack (Carleton), Nicola Santoro (Carleton), Esko Ukkonen (Helsinki), Jorge Urrutia (Ottawa), Derick Wood (Waterloo). Organizing Committee: t䄠  THEORYNET DEHNE%CARLETON.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU CALL FOR PAPERS - WADS '89 Frank Fiala, John Oommen, Ekow Otoo (Carleton), Robert Probert (Ottawa). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- edings at the conference. Invited Speakers: Michael Atallah (Purdue), Luc Devroye (McGill), Herbert Edelsbrunner (Urbana Champaign), Gaston Gonnet (Waterloo), Jan van Leeuwen (Utrecht), Chee Yap (Courant Institute). Program Committee: Selim Akl (Queen's), Frank Dehne (Carleton), Greg Fredrickson (Purdue), David Kirkpatrick (UBC), Andrzej Lingas (Linkoeping), Kurt Mehlhorn (U. des Saarlandes), Ian Munro (Waterloo), Joerg-Ruediger Sack (Carleton), Nicola Santoro (Carleton), Esko Ukkonen (Helsinki), Jorge Urrutia (Ottawa), Derick Wood (Waterloo). Organizing Committee: t䄠2PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Sep 88 16:52:21 GMT From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) Article-I.D.: <7987@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1135@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1135@sri-arpa.ARPA> JPOULIN%BOWDOIN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU writes: >From: > >I have a little confusion that I would like to have cleared: > >As I understand absolute zero (from what I've been told), it's the state >of minimum entropy in a system. Its energy is not zero, but it cannot >be reduced. > >My confusion is that absolute zero is the same temperature for >all materials regardless of chemistry. How do these materials know to k:2PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero f>be at their lowest energy at this point? Is there a simple description >of what happens to matter so that lowest energy states all converge >at the point we call 0 Kelvin? In other words, why can't material A be >at its lowest energy state at temperature T1 and material B be at its >lowest energy state at temperature T2 (T1 not equal to T2)? > >I suspect that I am grossly misusing the concepts of temperature and >entropy so any clarification would be welcome. Good question. Two things are at the same temperature if, when connected by a thermal conductor, no heat energy flows, a condition known as thermal equilibrium. (Zeroth law: If A is in thermal equilibrium with C, and B is in thermal equilibrium with C, then A and B are in thermal equilibrium. If C is a thermometer, then it will not change state (the mercury will stay in the same k:2PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero position) when going from A to B, so the two things are at the same temperature.) If thing A and thing B are both in their lowest energy states, then when they are brought into thermal contact neither of them has any heat energy it can give to the other, and so they are at the same temperature. This temperature is called absolute zero. David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Flowers -- Just say NO!!" - Mighty Mouse -------------------------------- e if, when connected by a thermal conductor, no heat energy flows, a condition known as thermal equilibrium. (Zeroth law: If A is in thermal equilibrium with C, and B is in thermal equilibrium with C, then A and B are in thermal equilibrium. If C is a thermometer, then it will not change state (the mercury will stay in the same k:EPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM New Function Optimization Meth---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 17:16:00 GMT From: offutt@caen.engin.umich.edu (daniel m offutt) Article-I.D.: <3e774277.fed7@dlfed7.engin.umich.edu> Genetic algorithms (GA's) are a relatively new function optimization technique that will be of interest to physicists and others who confront very difficult numerical optimization problems. This article explains how to obtain a function optimization package based upon the genetic algorithm. A number of experimental studies have shown that GA's exhibit impressive efficiency in practice. While classical gradient search techniques are more efficient for problems which satisfy tight constraints (e.g., continuity, low-dimensionality, unimodality, etc.), GA's consistently outperform both gradient techniques and various forms of random search on more difficult (and more common) problems, mWEPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM New Function Optimization Methsuch as optimizations involving discontinuous, noisy, high- dimensional, and multimodal objective functions. GA's have been applied to various domains, including numerical function optimization and adaptive control system design. The basic concepts and theory of GA's were developed by Holland (1975) and his students. Theoretical considerations show that genetic techniques provide a near-optimal heuristic for information gathering in complex search spaces. Those interested in more information about genetic algorithms, including the next international conference on GA's, may wish to subscribe to GA-LIST. Send subscription requests to gref@NRL-AIC.ARPA. Not to me. Those interested in obtaining a GA function optimization package via electronic mail, read on. John Grefenstette of the Naval Research Laboratories in Washington D.C. is making his optimization package available to physicists and others with difficult function optimization problems, especially those mWEPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM New Function Optimization Meththat have proven or would prove intractable using other optimization methods. A copy of the source code may be obtained by sending a request to gref@NRL-AIC.ARPA. A brief description of this package follows. The GENEtic Search Implementation System 4.5 (GENESIS 4.5) was written to promote the study of genetic algorithms for function minimization. GENESIS runs under the UNIX operating system, version V7 or higher. Since genetic algorithms are task independent optimizers, the user must provide only an "evaluation" function which returns a value when given a particular point in the search space. The system is written in the language C. Details concerning the interface between the user-written function and GENESIS are explained in the GENESIS user guide which comes with the package. Shell files are provided to ease the application of genetic algorithms to the user's objective function. and others with difficult function optimization problems, especially those mWEPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM New Function Optimization Meth5Genetic algorithms appear to hold a lot of promise as general purpose optimization procedures. However, the author of GENESIS disclaims any warranties of fitness for a particular problem. The purpose of making this system available is to encourage the experimental use of genetic algorithms on realistic optimization problems, and thereby to identify the strengths and weaknesses of genetic algorithms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Offutt offutt@caen.engin.umich.edu -------------------------------- given a particular point in the search space. The system is written in the language C. Details concerning the interface between the user-written function and GENESIS are explained in the GENESIS user guide which comes with the package. Shell files are provided to ease the application of genetic algorithms to the user's objective function. and others with difficult function optimization problems, especially those mWPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Matter wave compression c---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Sep 88 15:03:05 GMT From: uw-beaver!fluke!ssc-vax!vaughan@Cornell.ARPA (R. Fred Vaughan) Article-I.D.: <2228@ssc-vax.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12133@oberon.USC.EDU> In article <12133@oberon.USC.EDU>, robiner@ganelon.usc.edu (Steve) writes: > Question: > ... > ( yes, I know there really isn't a ruler, but the point is, the distance > the light travels is less by the same amount. ) > > ... so that no compression > should be noticed? Answer: Both contraction and the speed of light being a "universal" constant p胀PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Matter wave compression are properties that apply within Lorentz reference frames. But we mere mortals who are limited by appearances as against the etherial beauties supposedly resident in Lorentz frames, are locked out of much of this. Penrose proved that "fast" objects do not "appear" to be contracted. Hagedorn endorsed this in his book on Relativistic Kinematics; I assume others have also. The speed of light, i.e. how far it travels in a given mortal's time is also tied up in paradoxes. De Sitter erroneously concluded that its universality of speed applied to us, but he was wrong! As you suggested, if one does the Lorentz transformation taking into account all "contractions" and time dilations, what comes out of the wash is that the universality of "c" doesn't apply to us either!! So, what happens to your matter waves probably depends on the limitations of perspective you impose on yourself. The physicists on this net will tell you what happens in a twisted contortion of p胀PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Matter wave compression dimensionality and you can figure out whether that means it can be observed or not. They don't know or care! Fred -------------------------------- ent in Lorentz frames, are locked out of much of this. Penrose proved that "fast" objects do not "appear" to be contracted. Hagedorn endorsed this in his book on Relativistic Kinematics; I assume others have also. The speed of light, i.e. how far it travels in a given mortal's time is also tied up in paradoxes. De Sitter erroneously concluded that its universality of speed applied to us, but he was wrong! As you suggested, if one does the Lorentz transformation taking into account all "contractions" and time dilations, what comes out of the wash is that the universality of "c" doesn't apply to us either!! So, what happens to your matter waves probably depends on the limitations of perspective you impose on yourself. The physicists on this net will tell you what happens in a twisted contortion of p胀!P;PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM water balls ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 88 22:46:55 GMT From: toweri@clinet.FI (Jukka Lindgren) Article-I.D.: <691@clinet.FI> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1114@sri-arpa.ARPA> <21700007@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <1988Sep1.163442.14949@sq.uucp> When reading postings about "water balls" i.e. globules, it occurred to me that I have been watching those globules every time I pour milk in a glass! It really doesn't need any special tricks, just let drops of milk fall one by one from a height of four to five millimeters. When done carefully enough, every drop stays on the surface for about a half a second, or so. Could it be possible, that the round shape of the glass rv@!P;PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM water balls uhas something to do with those vibrations someone proposed to be the reason for globules to stay there. I mean, if there takes place some kind of resonance when all the waves produced by the falling drop, are bounced back from every side ("wall") of the glass. -toweri ______________________________________________________________________________ UUCP: toweri@clinet.fi | All opinions expressed contain Snail: --don't bother.. | *The Absolute Truth* | Therefore no disclaimers can be made ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------- ut a half a second, or so. Could it be possible, that the round shape of the glass rv@%PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM mis-addressed mail ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Sep 88 17:19:43 PDT From: knutsen (Andrew Knutsen) >From sri-unix!@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:B470SSN@UTARLVM1.BITNET Fri Sep 2 19:27:01 1988 Received: by unix.SRI.COM (5.31/5.14) id AA00475; Fri, 2 Sep 88 09:19:42 PDT Message-Id: <8809021619.AA00475@unix.SRI.COM> Received: from UTARLVM1.BITNET by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.1) with BSMTP id 3065; Fri, 02 Sep 88 00:55:13 EDT Received: by UTARLVM1 (Mailer X1.25) id 9033; Thu, 01 Sep 88 23:44:59 CDT Date: Thu, 01 Sep 88 23:41:08 CDT From: "S. Nomura" Subject: Underdetermined equation To: unix.SRI.COM!PHYSICS-REQUEST Status: RO wJ@%PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM mis-addressed mail !Can anybody suggest a proper way to compose a solver for underdetermined system of linear equations (the number of unknowns > the number of equations) preferably using LINPACK ? Thanks in advance. S. Nomura University of Texas at Arlington -------------------------------- 42 PDT Message-Id: <8809021619.AA00475@unix.SRI.COM> Received: from UTARLVM1.BITNET by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.1) with BSMTP id 3065; Fri, 02 Sep 88 00:55:13 EDT Received: by UTARLVM1 (Mailer X1.25) id 9033; Thu, 01 Sep 88 23:44:59 CDT Date: Thu, 01 Sep 88 23:41:08 CDT From: "S. Nomura" Subject: Underdetermined equation To: unix.SRI.COM!PHYSICS-REQUEST Status: RO wJ@*sg PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Orbitals, hybridization, and (/---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Sep 88 13:18:43 GMT From: JWC@IDA.LiU.SE (Jonas Wallgren) Article-I.D.: <907@miraculix.liu.se> Since there is no group named sci.chemistry I put my question here. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Is the correct term 'chemical bond' or 'chemical binding'? ) (Well, I use 'binding' here. If it's wrong you may correct me if you answer to) (the following question. ) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (s and p also stand for the greek letters sigma and pi) Why can't the series sp3-, sp2-, sp-hybridization be continued to 'sp0', i.e. no hybridization at all? s`*sg PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Orbitals, hybridization, and ( One could imagine a quadruple binding between two (the typical example: carbon) atoms consisting of an s-binding between the s-orbitals, an s-binding between the two 'axial' p-orbitals, and two p-bindings between the two remaining pairs of p-orbitals. I believe there are some energy constraints forbidding such a configuration, but I don't know which they are so I would like an explanation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonas Wallgren | JWC@IDA.LiU.SE Department of Computer and Information Science | Linkoping University |----------------------------- SE-581 83 Linkoping | Sweden | The Argument Eater: YKx=YK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- s`*sg PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Orbitals, hybridization, and ($ -------------------------------- ing between two (the typical example: carbon) atoms consisting of an s-binding between the s-orbitals, an s-binding between the two 'axial' p-orbitals, and two p-bindings between the two remaining pairs of p-orbitals. I believe there are some energy constraints forbidding such a configuration, but I don't know which they are so I would like an explanation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonas Wallgren | JWC@IDA.LiU.SE Department of Computer and Information Science | Linkoping University |----------------------------- SE-581 83 Linkoping | Sweden | The Argument Eater: YKx=YK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- s`A7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86  AIList Digest Monday, 19 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 86 Why we got rhythm (5 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 88 09:01:25 EDT From: "Bruce E. Nevin" Subject: Re: I got rhythm Subject: Re: I got rhythm In AIList Digest for Thursday, 15 Sep 1988 (Volume 8 : Issue 83), we read the following from Phil Goetz (PGOETZ%LOYVAX.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU): PG> Here's a question for anybody: Why do we have rhythm? | &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86  | Picture yourself tapping your foot to the tune of the latest Top 40 | trash hit. . . . Different actions require different processing | overhead. So why, no matter what we do, do we perceive time as a | constant? Why do we, in fact, have rhythm? Do we have an internal | clock, or a "main loop" which takes a constant time to run? Or do we | have an inadequate view of consciousness when we see it as a program? The music has rhythm. The foot tapper has synchrony. There are lots of physiological processes that are rhythmical in nature, and with which one can synchronize other behavior. Some are ongoing, notably heartbeat, breathing, and brain waves. Others are easier to start and stop, like walking or running. However it's done, it seems straightforward for organisms to set up an ad hoc oscillation, as in shivering, rubbing hands/paws together, pacing. For such activities it seems plausible that the governing &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 mechanisms are encapsulated and require little attention. Minsky's _Society of Mind_ is a good place to look. (Open question how ad hoc they are, perhaps they are in synchrony with preexisting rhythms.) The musicians (and not just the toe tappers and other dancers) are also synchronizing their actions with respect to existing rhythms, even if only to a beat counted out by the leader of the band at the outset (a-one, and a-two . . . ). Where does the initiating musician get the rhythm? Heartbeat? Imagining/ remembering oneself walking? (That is the meaning of `andante'.) Imagining/remembering people dancing? Certainly, once they have started, members of the band must synchronize their playing with one another (ensemble). What happens when the foot tapper is preoccupied with other thoughts? The tapping doesn't slow down, it can't because synchrony is essential to it. Instead, it becomes sporadic. The process itself gets dropped and picked up again. Just so, new musicians have to practice keeping up &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 a steady rhythm despite being distracted by other things (coordinating fingers on the instrument, remembering the words in a song). Their novice performance is typically marked by interrupting and resuming the given rhythm. If a practicing pianist slows down in a passage where the notes are small and close together, it is mostly to coordinate the fingers physically, not to free up processing time. (Preferred way is to slow the whole piece down and play at a constant tempo.) It seems to require a certain amount of attention to maintain a rhythmic behavior, presumably above the threshold required to maintain synchrony. But that's not much, as anyone can attest who has discovered her or his body swaying or falling in step or tapping unawares during a conversation. Rhythm (cyclicity) is an environmental given. Resonance (entrainment) is also a given in physics, ecology, psychology. Music and dance play process itself gets dropped and picked up again. Just so, new musicians have to practice keeping up &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 qwith these givens. Seems to me that cyclicity and synchrony has survival value in that it helps make organisms predictable to one another. Creatures that become prey are typically those unable to maintain synchrony with their social group because of sickness, etc. Stricking examples of synchrony include flocks of birds, schools of fish. We have recently heard of LIFE emulations of flock behavior involving little processing overhead. Perhaps the problem is not how do individuals synchronize in a flock, but rather how does individuation happen out of the flock, and to what extent. It seems plausible that the experience of being an independent ego that we humans cherish is an illusion. To maintain such an illusion, we ignore counterevidence. A pretty good definition of unconscious behavior. (Say, did you know your foot was tapping?) Bruce Nevin in physics, ecology, psychology. Music and dance play process itself gets dropped and picked up again. Just so, new musicians have to practice keeping up &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 Mbn@cch.bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Sep 88 10:32:21 EDT From: hayden@prism.TMC.COM (Hayden Ridenour) Subject: rhythm > So why, no matter what we do, do we perceive time as a constant? Who does this? Try keeping track of time when you're in a hurry to get seven different things done at once and compare it to how slow time passes when you're waiting for something. The time passes at the same rate, but we don't perceive it at the same constant rate. As for why you can be tapping your foot to the rhythm of a song you're hat extent. It seems plausible that the experience of being an independent ego that we humans cherish is an illusion. To maintain such an illusion, we ignore counterevidence. A pretty good definition of unconscious behavior. (Say, did you know your foot was tapping?) Bruce Nevin in physics, ecology, psychology. Music and dance play process itself gets dropped and picked up again. Just so, new musicians have to practice keeping up &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 rlistening to while you're doing other things: you have the music as a timing source. You could think of it as an interrupt process keyed to the rhythm of the music. ~? ~h ------------------------------ Date: Thu 15 Sep 1988 13:44 CDT From: Subject: RE: I got rhythm > >It comes down to this: Different actions require different processing >overhead. So why, no matter what we do, do we perceive time as a constant? >Why do we, in fact, have rhythm? Do we have an internal clock, or a >"main loop" which takes a constant time to run? Or do we have an inadequate the experience of being an independent ego that we humans cherish is an illusion. To maintain such an illusion, we ignore counterevidence. A pretty good definition of unconscious behavior. (Say, did you know your foot was tapping?) Bruce Nevin in physics, ecology, psychology. Music and dance play process itself gets dropped and picked up again. Just so, new musicians have to practice keeping up &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 >view of consciousness when we see it as a program? >Phil Goetz >PGOETZ@LOYVAX.bitnet Being both an international jazz recording artist and computer programer, with a growing background in AI (but not the AI religion), I will join this jam session on this tune called "I GOT RYTHM". I really dont know how much I can answer Phil's questions, but I can give some perspective on how a musician or drummer or someone with good time views rhythm. Start out by looking at some of the terminology surrounding rythm, we say something is "in a groove" or "in the pocket" or "it swings". The first two imply precision, ease, and continuaty, while "swing" implies motion. All three terms imply "autonomy", and that is so true. , we ignore counterevidence. A pretty good definition of unconscious behavior. (Say, did you know your foot was tapping?) Bruce Nevin in physics, ecology, psychology. Music and dance play process itself gets dropped and picked up again. Just so, new musicians have to practice keeping up &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 When something "swings", the music goes by itself. "Time" is another important word. For musical genres which are known to have advanced forms of rythm, "TIME" is a very mutable characteristic. By laying slightly back of the beat, you make the sound float in the air, and by pushing ahaed slightly, you can give music drive and fire. To be able to master it and use it, I would tend to say it involves all parts of the human psycho physical structure... You certainly excite your nervous system, you need your reflexes to control the muscles that are tapping the foot or playing the instrument, the emotions are involved, and on the mental level, you need to concentrate and use your ability to image things. Then of course there is the musical idea itself behind the whole thing. Certainly if you are lazily tapping your foot and not paying too much other attention, these other charactaristcs will take a lessor role. But to the extent you are tapping good time, you must have the automatism there. Where this comes from, I don't know, but that is how you feel it. Therefore, I would suggest that we do not perceive time as a constant. &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 )We don't in ordinary life, and we don't in music. If we are really getting into a piece, we could listen for hours and it will not seem like a long time. I heard a live performance of Stavinsky's La Sacre du Printemp, even though it is 40 minutes, it went by like 10 minutes. Isn't it a famous quote of Einstein when asked to explain relativity, and he said "If you are sitting next to a beautiful girl, hours go by like minutes, but if you are sitting next to ..., minutes seem like hours" Phil asked about programming this. Since I have become disillusioned at how generic most jazz today sounds ( Yes Wynton, that's you) my musical direction has been to make a One Man Digital Band with an Atari ST MIDId to my MIDIcapable trumpet and a variety of synthesizers and drum machines. I have been programming a walking bass line. It reads my trumpet and figures a bass line in real time. If I change keys, It changes keys. If I hold a note. It holds a note. etc... The only way to program rhythm and make it sound "human", is to study humans, s how you feel it. Therefore, I would suggest that we do not perceive time as a constant. &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 identify the slight delays or anticipations, and try to come up with a scheme so it is related to the appropriate information of the other music. This itself is a creative act on the part of the human being. There are no fixed schemes on determining what is approprate, one has to do the research and evaluate the results. Whehher you can get it down to an adaptive filter is anyone's guess. At present there are some people working in this area, and there are even some commercial products out that based on some of the concepts I have presented. There are devices which are designed to take a perfectly timed computer generated drum sync track and massage the pulses so it will give a human feel. On the unit are switchs to make it sound like a 60s Motown feel, a 70s L.A. sound, brazillian, and on and on and on. I think I have said enough, I hope that answer's Phils question. If not I hope that this was interesting otherwise. If not, solid.......... Jeff Beer, UUCJEFF@ECNCDC.BITNET... Chicago Ill.... nd "human", is to study humans, s how you feel it. Therefore, I would suggest that we do not perceive time as a constant. &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 "I'll play it and tell you what it is later"... Miles Davis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Sep 88 03:07:35 EDT From: Joseph.Tebelskis@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: I got rhythm In V8 #83, Phil Goetz asks: > It comes down to this: Different actions require different processing > overhead. So why, no matter what we do, do we perceive time as a constant? > Why do we, in fact, have rhythm? Do we have an internal clock, or a > "main loop" which takes a constant time to run? Or do we have an inadequate > view of consciousness when we see it as a program? First you need to realize that the computer is a poor metaphor for the brain. he pulses so it will give a human feel. On the unit are switchs to make it sound like a 60s Motown feel, a 70s L.A. sound, brazillian, and on and on and on. I think I have said enough, I hope that answer's Phils question. If not I hope that this was interesting otherwise. If not, solid.......... Jeff Beer, UUCJEFF@ECNCDC.BITNET... Chicago Ill.... nd "human", is to study humans, s how you feel it. Therefore, I would suggest that we do not perceive time as a constant. &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 Modern computers are organized around a single CPU through which all the computations must flow, while memory plays a passive and underutilized role -- hence the CPU is called the "bottleneck" of modern computers. As you noted, multitasking slows down individual tasks on such machines. In contrast, the brain has a hundred billion processors (neurons), and its vast memory is active rather than passive. Its various modules operate in parallel, so they don't slow each other down; this is why we can perceive time as a constant no matter what we're doing. Also, the brain does not execute a high-level "program" of instructions: its operation is guided by autonomous physical processes at the neural level. From this neural level emerge all the diverse cognitive phenomena, including rational thought, emotions, and consciousness. However, the only emergent phenomenon which maps well onto our computer programming paradigm is rational thought -- so that's what symbolic AI has always concentrated on. The emergent phenomenon of consciousness is "made of the same stuff" at a low level, but it just cannot be approximated satisfactorily at the symbolic (programming) level. &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 With regard to rhythm and parallelism, I currently visualize the brain as an extremely complex "resonance chamber". At various scales and physical locations within the brain, different subnetworks can be resonating in different ways. The simplest kind of resonance would be a cyclical reverberation of activity at a characteristic frequency; such a pulsing signal could control your foot as you tap out a rhythm. More complex types of resonance may simultaneously be in operation elsewhere in the brain, controlling unrelated cognitive tasks such as doing a math problem. I suspect that subnetworks of the brain use complex resonance patterns to symbolically represent brief progressions of events, such as perceptual sequences, fast motor procedures, and internal state transitions. Such temporally encoded symbols, recursively telescoped together in the "resonance chamber" of the brain, may account for the natural emergence of a hierarchy of symbolic representations for event progressions spanning arbitrary time scales. It is also conceivable that resonant representations avoid interfering with each other in the brain just as physical waves do, by superposition. &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86  Joe Tebelskis, connectionist (jmt@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Sep 88 14:59:08 bst From: Bert Hutchings Subject: Re: I got rhythm In article <19880915011053.7.NICK@HOWARD-JOHNSONS.LCS.MIT.EDU> Phil Goetz asked "Why do we have rhythm? . . . Why do we, in fact, have rhythm?" Most of us have, but... My wife taught music to young schoolchildren and found an occasional exception. We know one rhythm-deaf adult too, unable to keep a beat, or to distinguish a regular one from a slightly irregular one. I estimate between 1/50 and 1/200 of people have this condition. epresent brief progressions of events, such as perceptual sequences, fast motor procedures, and internal state transitions. Such temporally encoded symbols, recursively telescoped together in the "resonance chamber" of the brain, may account for the natural emergence of a hierarchy of symbolic representations for event progressions spanning arbitrary time scales. It is also conceivable that resonant representations avoid interfering with each other in the brain just as physical waves do, by superposition. &,vA7h`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #86 R ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** --------- Date: Fri, 16 Sep 88 14:59:08 bst From: Bert Hutchings Subject: Re: I got rhythm In article <19880915011053.7.NICK@HOWARD-JOHNSONS.LCS.MIT.EDU> Phil Goetz asked "Why do we have rhythm? . . . Why do we, in fact, have rhythm?" Most of us have, but... My wife taught music to young schoolchildren and found an occasional exception. We know one rhythm-deaf adult too, unable to keep a beat, or to distinguish a regular one from a slightly irregular one. I estimate between 1/50 and 1/200 of people have this condition. epresent brief progressions of events, such as perceptual sequences, fast motor procedures, and internal state transitions. Such temporally encoded symbols, recursively telescoped together in the "resonance chamber" of the brain, may account for the natural emergence of a hierarchy of symbolic representations for event progressions spanning arbitrary time scales. It is also conceivable that resonant representations avoid interfering with each other in the brain just as physical waves do, by superposition. &,vAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87  AIList Digest Monday, 19 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 87 Philosophy: The Uncertainty Principle State and change/continuous actions (2 messages) Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 88 14:59:38 edt From: bph%buengc.bu.edu@bu-it.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) Subject: Re: The Uncertainty Principle. >In Vol 8 # 78 Blair Houghton cries out:- >> I do wish people would keep *recursion* and *perturbation* straight aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 >> and different from the Uncertainty Principle. And Gordon Joly Whines Back: >Perhaps... But what is the *perturbation* in question? "Observation"? By "recursion," I actually meant feedback, which was the process to which Heisenberg-o-morphic uncertainty was being applied in order to invoke chaos in artificially intelligent systems. Lessee if I can verbosify the intuitions: Uncertainty exists because one can not determine the state of a particle system unless one has: a. infinite time to make the measurement with zero energy; or, b. infinite energy to make the measurement in zero time. (it's usually equivalently described as: aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 "determining the momentum requires a long distance over which to observe, hence the particle's position, which can be anywhere along that distance, is not known; and, determining the position requires a very short distance for observation, which causes the error of the momentum measurement to increase.) This is manifest in the fact that adding energy to the system in order to make an understandable observation will necessarily change the state of the system. This DOES NOT mean that observing the system creates uncertainty. Such a thing is equivalent to saying that observing the perfectly flat surface of the ocean causes waves to form, when in fact it is the observer's boat's bobbing in the water that causes those waves. THIS is the "perturbation in question." aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87  >Blair also observes >> Electrons "know" where they are and where they are going. > >And I know where I'm coming from too, Man! > >On page 55 (of the American edition) of "A Brief History of Time", >Professor Stephen Hawking says And I'm s'posed to argue? No Way. >``The uncertainty principle had profound implications for way in >which we view the world... The uncertainty principle signaled an >end to Laplace's dream of a theory of science, a model of the >universe that could be completely deterministic: one certainly >cannot predict future events exactly if one cannot even measure >the present state of the universe precisely!'' , when in fact it is the observer's boat's bobbing in the water that causes those waves. THIS is the "perturbation in question." aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 > >And what of "chaos"? Actually, it means we have to keep our error-bars polished and ready. I wasn't ready for infinite-precision laboratory equipment, anyway. Theoretically, it means our theory has to be treated the same way we treat experimental data; we could even begin to consider current theory to be the data of logical deduction experiments, which is I believe a view consistent with Einstein's of mathematics as an imprecise method for describing nature at the incept. --Blair "It's always a nice feeling to be consistent with Einstein." it is the observer's boat's bobbing in the water that causes those waves. THIS is the "perturbation in question." aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87  ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 88 21:25:29 GMT From: uflorida!fishwick@gatech.edu (Paul Fishwick) Subject: state and change/continuous actions An inquiry into concepts of "state" and "change": In browsing through Genesereth's and Nilsson's recent book "Logical Foundations of Artificial Intelligence," I find it interesting to compare and contrast the concepts described in Chapter 11 - "State and Change" with state/change concepts defined within systems theory and simulation modeling. The authors make the following statement: "Insufficient attention has been paid to the problem of continuous actions." Now, a question that immediately comes to mind is "What problem?" in the water that causes those waves. THIS is the "perturbation in question." aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 Perhaps, they are referring to the problem of defining semantics for "how humans think about continuous actions." This leads to some interesting questions: 1) Clearly, the vast literature on math modeling is indicative of "how humans think about continuous actions." This knowledge is in a compiled form, and use of this knowledge has served science in an untold number of circumstances. 2) If commonsense knowledge representation is the issue then we might want to ask a fundamental question "Why do we care about representing commonsense knowledge about continuous actions?" I can see 2 possible goals: One goal is to validate some given theory of commonsense "continuous action" knowledge against actual psychological data. Then we could say, for instance, that Theory XYZ reflects human thought and is therefore useful. I don't think it would be useful to increase our knowledge of aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87  mechanics or fluidics, for instance, but perhaps a psycho-therapist might find this knowledge useful. A second goal is to obtain a better model of the continuous action (this reflects the "AI is an approach to problem solving" method where one can study "how Johnny reasons when balls are bounced" and obtain a scientifically superior model regardless of its actual psychological validity). Has anyone seen a commonsense model of continuous action that is an improvement over systems of differential equations, graph based queueing models (and other assorted formal languages for systems and simulation)? Obviously, I'm trying to spark some inter-group discussion and so I hope that any responses will post to both the AI group (comp.ai) AND the SIMULATION group (comp.simulation). In addition (sci.math) and (comp.theory.dynamic-sys) may be appropriate. I believe that Genesereth and Nilsson are quite correct that "reasoning aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 about time and continous actions" is an important issue. However, an even more important issue revolves around people discussing concepts about "state," "time," and "change" by crossing disciplines. Any thoughts? -paul +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Prof. Paul A. Fishwick.... INTERNET: fishwick@bikini.cis.ufl.edu | | Dept. of Computer Science. UUCP: gatech!uflorida!fishwick | | Univ. of Florida.......... PHONE: (904)-335-8036 | | Bldg. CSE, Room 301....... FAX is available | | Gainesville, FL 32611..... | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ the SIMULATION group (comp.simulation). In addition (sci.math) and (comp.theory.dynamic-sys) may be appropriate. I believe that Genesereth and Nilsson are quite correct that "reasoning aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 Date: 17 Sep 88 16:14:13 GMT From: uhccux!lee@humu.nosc.mil (Greg Lee) Subject: Re: state and change/continuous actions From a previous article by fishwick@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU (Paul Fishwick): " " 2) If commonsense knowledge representation is the issue then we " might want to ask a fundamental question "Why do we care about " representing commonsense knowledge about continuous actions?" " I can see 2 possible goals: One goal is to validate some given " ... To reason about continuous actions where the physics hasn't been worked out or is computationally infeasible. How about that as a third goal? " Obviously, I'm trying to spark some inter-group discussion and so I hope -------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ the SIMULATION group (comp.simulation). In addition (sci.math) and (comp.theory.dynamic-sys) may be appropriate. I believe that Genesereth and Nilsson are quite correct that "reasoning aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 q" that any responses will post to both the AI group (comp.ai) AND " the SIMULATION group (comp.simulation). In addition (sci.math) and " (comp.theory.dynamic-sys) may be appropriate. Tsk, tsk. Left out sci.lang. The way people think about these things is reflected in the tense/aspect systems of natural languages. " I believe that Genesereth and Nilsson are quite correct that "reasoning " about time and continous actions" is an important issue. However, an " even more important issue revolves around people discussing " concepts about "state," "time," and "change" by crossing disciplines. " Any thoughts? In English, predicates which can occur with Agent subjects, those capable of deliberate action, can also occur in the progressive aspect, expressing continuous action. This suggests some connection between intent and continuity whose nature is not mic-sys) may be appropriate. I believe that Genesereth and Nilsson are quite correct that "reasoning aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 Xobvious, to me anyway. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 88 23:40:47 GMT From: markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) Subject: Why? Any time that one sets out to deal with a major problem, there is usually some kind of end-state that is desired, an IDEAL if you will. It's a necessary component of the problem solving task; so much so that if you were to lack the goals and direction you would just end up floundering and meandering -- and that's what is often (wrongly) perceived as doing philosophy. plines. " Any thoughts? In English, predicates which can occur with Agent subjects, those capable of deliberate action, can also occur in the progressive aspect, expressing continuous action. This suggests some connection between intent and continuity whose nature is not mic-sys) may be appropriate. I believe that Genesereth and Nilsson are quite correct that "reasoning aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87  So this brings up the question on my mind: Why does anyone want artificial intelligence? What is it that you're seeking to gain by it? What is it that you would have an intelligent machine do? And when you answer these questions then answer how and why considering AI seems more urgent today than ever before. Link what I've just said in the first two paragraphs. You'll see that it is a recursive problem. It applies both to AI and to you in the quest of seeking AI. If you want to successfully deal with the problem of AI, then you are going to have to know just what it is that you are trying to do. Human curiosity (about the nature of our mind) is one thing, but even that has to be directed toward a pressing need -- so the question remains just what the pressing need is. To say that we merely desire to understand the mind is just a way of rephrasing the question -- it is not an answer. ilsson are quite correct that "reasoning aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87  I asked the question and raised the issue, so probably I should try to answer it too. The first thing that comes to mind is our current situation as regards science -- its increasing specialization. Most people will agree that this is a trend that has gone way too far ... to the extent that we may have sacrificed global perspective and competence in our specialists; and further that it is a trend that needs to be reversed. Yet fewer would dare to suggest that we can overcome the problem. I dare. One of the most important functions of AI will be to amplify our own intelligence. In fact, I believe that time is upon us that this symbiotic relation between human and potentially intelligent machine is triggering an evolutionary change in our species as far as its cognitive abilities are concerned. Seen this way, we'll realise that the axiom still holds that: THE COMPUTER IS A TOOL. It's an Intelligent Tool -- but a tool nevertheless. Nowadays, for instance, we credit ourselves with the ability to go at high speeds (60 mph in a car) even though it is really the machine that is doing it for us. Likewise it is going to be with intelligent tools. So in this way, the problem with the information explosion is going to be aAC(@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #87 tsolved. Slowly, it is dawning on us that the very need for specialization is becoming obsolete. A major determinant of how fragmented science is is how much communication takes place. I submit here that the information explosion is for the most part an explosion in redundancy brought about by a communication bottleneck. Our goal is then to find a way to open up this bottle neck. It is here, again that AI (especially in relation to intelligent data bases) may come to the rescue. This is what I see as for the Why's. ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** time is upon us that this symbiotic relation between human and potentially intelligent machine is triggering an evolutionary change in our species as far as its cognitive abilities are concerned. Seen this way, we'll realise that the axiom still holds that: THE COMPUTER IS A TOOL. It's an Intelligent Tool -- but a tool nevertheless. Nowadays, for instance, we credit ourselves with the ability to go at high speeds (60 mph in a car) even though it is really the machine that is doing it for us. Likewise it is going to be with intelligent tools. So in this way, the problem with the information explosion is going to be aAOaPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The McCarthy period ~---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Sep 88 11:42:14 GMT From: cik@l.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) Article-I.D.: <932@l.cc.purdue.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <1249@anasaz.UUCP> I do not know what would happen today, but among the universities which gave the McCarthy "investigation" short shrift were the midwest state universities with conservative Republican presidents. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907 Phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@l.cc.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet, UUCP) zAOaPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The McCarthy period "-------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 88 11:42:14 GMT From: cik@l.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) Article-I.D.: <932@l.cc.purdue.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <1249@anasaz.UUCP> I do not know what would happen today, but among the universities which gave the McCarthy "investigation" short shrift were the midwest state universities with conservative Republican presidents. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907 Phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@l.cc.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet, UUCP)  zASL PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides y---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Sep 88 09:54:09 GMT From: bobs@sco.COM (Bob Stayton) Article-I.D.: <1289@scolex> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1121@sri-arpa.ARPA> <945@altger.UUCP> <419@aoa.UUCP> In article <419@aoa.UUCP> carl@aoa.UUCP (Carl Witthoft) writes: >[Poster asked why two tides a day] >The simple fact is: tides are caused indirectly by gravity. It is not >merely the fact that the moon (or sun) pulls on water, but the fact >that the earth is NOT a point source but IS in orbit around some common >point w/ the moon. As we all know :=) , material which is in orbit >has a specific relationship between orbit diameter and velocity/speed. >Thus, the water nearest the moon is moving too slow for its orbit and >hangs "down." Similarly, the water furthest from the moon is going too >fast for its orbit and hangs "out." oߠASL PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides Close, except the water doesn't hang "down" toward the moon, because "down" on that side of the earth isn't in the direction of the moon. The common point around which the earth and moon rotate is located only 3,000 files from the center of the earth. This puts it 1,000 miles below the surface of the earth. The center of the earth circles around this balance point, as does the center of the moon. It seems like the moon is doing all the moving, but that is our geocentric point of view. As an alternative point of view, imagine yourself as a hammer thrower in the Olympics. You are the earth and your hammer (lead weight on the end of a chain) is the moon. As you spin the hammer around you, you must lean back to balance the pull of the hammer. The center of balance of you and the hammer is somewhere just in front of your chest, and you are actually spinning around that motionless point.  oߠASL PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides It is obvious to those watching you spin. The sweat on your knuckles represents the oceans facing the moon. The sweat on your back represents the oceans away from the moon. Since they are on opposite sides of the center of rotation, both are thrown outward by the centrifugal "pseudo" force. The sweat on the back is farther out than the knuckle sweat, so it experiences a greater centrifugal force. The earth-moon system is complicated by having gravity being a distributed force rather than a single force (as on the hands of the hammer thrower). On the earth, the moon is 8,000 miles closer to the oceans on the moonward side, so that moonward tide gets an extra lift. But its not a direct lift (which is too small to be much help). The extra gravity acts to pull water sideways from the poles and the "sides" of the earth (the areas not on the line between the earth and moon). That water slides sideways and  oߠASL PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides piles up on the moonward side. Combine this simple fluid dynamic with the small centrifugal force (only a 1,000 mile radius), and you get a tide roughly equal to the faster moving tide (on a 7,000 mile radius) away from the moon. By the way, the equations of gravity and motion say the same thing but in fewer words. bobs in Docland Robert Stayton Technical Documentation The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. ...uunet!sco!bobs -------------------------------- rce rather than a single force (as on the hands of the hammer thrower). On the earth, the moon is 8,000 miles closer to the oceans on the moonward side, so that moonward tide gets an extra lift. But its not a direct lift (which is too small to be much help). The extra gravity acts to pull water sideways from the poles and the "sides" of the earth (the areas not on the line between the earth and moon). That water slides sideways and  oߠAWUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM What's News? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Sep 88 14:31:11 GMT From: riley@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley) Article-I.D.: <6344@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1136@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1136@sri-arpa.ARPA> jdjohnson%nscl%msuhep.hepnet@LBL.Gov writes: > It annoys me, however, that Mr. Parks continues to confuse NEWS >and personal opinions. In fact, there are times when it seems that he >is bucking for a medal from the ACLU (my own opinion, no need to argue >the point). Mr. Parks also concludes his "NEWS" columns by signing them >AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, although he never once has (to my knowledge) >used terms such as "member poll", or "survey". What is being done is >pure and obvious editorializing. However, this mailing list finds that >appropriate. Mr. Parks works for the APS. "What's New" is considered by the APS to be XRAWUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM What's News? 3a service to its members. They have stated in several APS bulletins that "What's New" is `frankly editorial', which you may or may not like, but it does contain information which is highly relevant (and sometimes useful) to any research physicist who relies on US government sources for money, via research contracts, grants, or university support. If you are an APS member (this is a generic you, we know Mr. Johnson is an APS member), and disagree with the tone of "What's New", you should communicate that to the APS. "What's New" does not originate on Usenet, and I doubt Mr. Parks ever sees any of the discussion here; any communication with the APS about "What's New" should probably be sent US Mail. -dan riley (dsr@lns61.tn.cornell.edu, dsr@crnlns.bitnet) -wilson lab, cornell university list finds that >appropriate. Mr. Parks works for the APS. "What's New" is considered by the APS to be XRAWUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM What's News? "-------------------------------- ve stated in several APS bulletins that "What's New" is `frankly editorial', which you may or may not like, but it does contain information which is highly relevant (and sometimes useful) to any research physicist who relies on US government sources for money, via research contracts, grants, or university support. If you are an APS member (this is a generic you, we know Mr. Johnson is an APS member), and disagree with the tone of "What's New", you should communicate that to the APS. "What's New" does not originate on Usenet, and I doubt Mr. Parks ever sees any of the discussion here; any communication with the APS about "What's New" should probably be sent US Mail. -dan riley (dsr@lns61.tn.cornell.edu, dsr@crnlns.bitnet) -wilson lab, cornell university list finds that >appropriate. Mr. Parks works for the APS. "What's New" is considered by the APS to be XRA[ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Nitric acid }---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Sep 88 17:46:20 GMT From: hinde@tank.uchicago.edu (R.J. Hinde) Article-I.D.: <146@tank.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> PUSCHGD@VTCC1.BITNET (Gordon D. Pusch) writes: [a lot of interesting things about the possible cause(s) of acid rain, and] >...Nitric acid (H2NO3) is most commonly used industrially... Atmospheric chemistry is not my forte, so I don't feel qualified to comment on the substance of this posting, but I _would_ like to point out that nitric acid is actually HNO3. /A[ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Nitric acid "-------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 88 17:46:20 GMT From: hinde@tank.uchicago.edu (R.J. Hinde) Article-I.D.: <146@tank.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> PUSCHGD@VTCC1.BITNET (Gordon D. Pusch) writes: [a lot of interesting things about the possible cause(s) of acid rain, and] >...Nitric acid (H2NO3) is most commonly used industrially... Atmospheric chemistry is not my forte, so I don't feel qualified to comment on the substance of this posting, but I _would_ like to point out that nitric acid is actually HNO3. /A]`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 88 12:37:03 GMT From: nrl-cmf!mailrus!uflorida!gatech!bbn!aoa!carl@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Carl Witthoft) Article-I.D.: <419@aoa.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1121@sri-arpa.ARPA> <945@altger.UUCP> [Poster asked why two tides a day] The simple fact is: tides are caused indirectly by gravity. It is not merely the fact that the moon (or sun) pulls on water, but the fact that the earth is NOT a point source but IS in orbit around some common point w/ the moon. As we all know :=) , material which is in orbit has a specific relationship between orbit diameter and velocity/speed. Thus, the water nearest the moon is moving too slow for its orbit and hangs "down." Similarly, the water furthest from the moon is going too fast for its orbit and hangs "out." As the earth rotates, these bulges zoom around and around (at least in the ANtarctic ocean, the only place 4ج A]`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM moon and tides one can cross all longitudes w/o hitting land), and break off to go through all oceans and stuff. Good short SciFi story based on this by Niven (I think), one of the PuppetMaster series. -- Alix' Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) " Axis-navigo, ergo sum." {ll-xn,spdcc,...}!bbn!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201 And a cryptic anagram: Legal case of theft of a marble from Carl Witthoft. (Praise but no prize if you solve it.) -------------------------------- oint w/ the moon. As we all know :=) , material which is in orbit has a specific relationship between orbit diameter and velocity/speed. Thus, the water nearest the moon is moving too slow for its orbit and hangs "down." Similarly, the water furthest from the moon is going too fast for its orbit and hangs "out." As the earth rotates, these bulges zoom around and around (at least in the ANtarctic ocean, the only place 4ج A`vPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Maxwells Doorway ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 88 22:22:10 GMT From: josh@klaatu.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) Article-I.D.: " --------------------------- Expanded view of one door | / | | o | ---air fan / | o | | | ^ | o | | | ------------------- | \ o | | | | | | | | | | \ | V | | | | | | | | o----\ | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | |\ o | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | | \ | | | | | | | | | o | | | | | | | | | | | o | V 8&&A`vPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Maxwells Doorway  --------------------------- " If the atoms are lighter than the door, they just bounce off without going through (though the door may open in recoil). If the atoms are heavy enough to throw the door back and still have enough energy to go through, the door is lighter than the atoms. Then at the same temperature, its thermal motion will be faster the atoms', and it won't be able to do much of a job as a trap door. --JoSH -------------------------------- | | | | | \ | V | | | | | | | | o----\ | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | |\ o | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | | \ | | | | | | | | | o | | | | | | | | | | | o | V 8&&AcPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero $---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 88 14:52:00 GMT From: mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <44900011@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1135@sri-arpa.ARPA> It is best and easiest to think of temperature in terms of the number of particles in various quantum states of a system. Every system has only certain allowed energy levels, acording to the laws of quantum mechanics. At temperatures above zero, the molecules are distributed in various states, higher and higher ones being use at higher temperatures. At t = 0, ALL the molecules lie at the lowest possible level. There are complications due to the Fermi exclusion principle, so it is really best to say that the particles are all piled up so that they can go no lower. =AcPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero 5Doug McDonald -------------------------------- ----------- Date: 16 Sep 88 14:52:00 GMT From: mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <44900011@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1135@sri-arpa.ARPA> It is best and easiest to think of temperature in terms of the number of particles in various quantum states of a system. Every system has only certain allowed energy levels, acording to the laws of quantum mechanics. At temperatures above zero, the molecules are distributed in various states, higher and higher ones being use at higher temperatures. At t = 0, ALL the molecules lie at the lowest possible level. There are complications due to the Fermi exclusion principle, so it is really best to say that the particles are all piled up so that they can go no lower. =Ae PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 88 00:47:47 GMT From: pyramid!decwrl!spar!edsel!kdo@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Ken Olum) Article-I.D.: <1464@edsel> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> As long as people are thinking about lightning, can someone explain how lightning rods work? Everything I know about it would make me think that the effect of a lightning rod would be to get hit by lightning, but I'm told they actually work by preventing lightning strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? Ken Olum -------------------------------- Cǜ wz PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Fundamental dimensions ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 88 20:45:51 GMT From: lew@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Article-I.D.: <9450@ihlpa.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <44400028@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk< <2801@pt.cs.cmu.edu< <3633@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> In article <3633@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, tycchow@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Timothy Yi-chung Chow) writes: > Well, in the linear algebra course I took as a freshman, tensors were > defined as multilinear forms (see Halmos' Finite Dimensional Vector > Spaces), but in the physics course I took as a freshman, tensors were > defined as things that transform in a certain way. Admittedly, freshman > courses are poor indicators of how the Math and Physics communities > view things, but my guess is that the physicists stick to the latter > definition because it is more useful physically, but the mathematicians > prefer the former definition because it ties in with other concepts of E wz PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Fundamental dimensions o> linear algebra more neatly. I think physicists ( or physics students ) miss a lot by taking the naive approach to tensors in particular and linear algebra in general. This shows up particularly in QM where duality is important. By restricting their attention to orthonormal bases the distinction between co- and contravariant components is blurred, and they become unable to make important conceptual distinctions just because they are convolved in the orthonormal case. At one point I intended to write my Ph.D. thesis based on the applications of some advanced linear algebra I found in an Algebraic Geometry text to molecular orbital calculations. I gave up because I decided that this was mostly a heuristic point of view which didn't really break new ground. But still, somebody brighter and/or more ambitious than myself probably could have done it. the mathematicians > prefer the former definition because it ties in with other concepts of E wz PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Fundamental dimensions My favorite heuristic application is the application of the Pluecker relations ( quadratic relations which hold among the components of a simple antisymmetric product ) to the Hydrogen molecule. It dispenses with a lot of intuitive handwaving ( which is revealed to be nonsense ) about why "configuration interaction" is required. Lew Mammel, Jr. -------------------------------- portant conceptual distinctions just because they are convolved in the orthonormal case. At one point I intended to write my Ph.D. thesis based on the applications of some advanced linear algebra I found in an Algebraic Geometry text to molecular orbital calculations. I gave up because I decided that this was mostly a heuristic point of view which didn't really break new ground. But still, somebody brighter and/or more ambitious than myself probably could have done it. the mathematicians > prefer the former definition because it ties in with other concepts of E z PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain ,---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Sep 88 17:23 EDT From: GORDON D. PUSCH Original_To: PHYBOARD (original postings to Space-Digest; original response sent to same, but I thought Sci.Physics might be interested as well ...) >In article <3065@lanl.gov> jlg@lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes: >> Well over 90% of the global atmospheric loading of sulpher dioxide >> is volcanic. This makes you wonder why acid rain is such a recent >> problem (and it is). Could it be that _other_ pollutants are mainly >> responsible? > >What about nitrates? I learned some interesting things on a visit >this past spring to the Hubbard Brook Experimental Forest. One is >that, since the 1970's, the amount of acidity that seems to be caused M\k z PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain O>by sulfates has diminished. What has taken up the slack has been an >increased contribution of nitric acid from nitrates. The reason for >this is that it people are burning less coal, but driving cars more, >at least in the northeast. > -- Buffalo Bill Darn right! And based on my dusty memories of Chemistry, I am personally convinced that Power-plant SO2-emissions are *NOT* the principal culprit in Acidification (although it is Politically the most expediant thing to blame). I am convinced that the principle culprit in Acidification is the *Automobile catalytic converter*. SO2 has a *very* small disassociation constant. You CAN'T make sulfuric acid (H2SO4) in significant quantities without the presence of a strong oxidant. Nitric acid (H2NO3) is most commonly used industrially. It is M\k z PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain believed that Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) is the principle oxidant in Rain Acidification (see the recent "Scientific American" article on the subject). But if you examine the Reaction Diagram in the same article, you will note that NOX plays a critical role in *every path* to both H2SO4 and H2O2 formation. And H2NO3 can be formed quite easily from NOX and Water. NOX is formed wherever Nitrogen and Oxygen are present together at high temperature. And the rate of reaction typically goes like exp(-Ea/kT), like any chemical process ( Ea is the "activation energy", T is the absolute temperature, and k is Boltzmann's contant). Because they operate at much higher temperatures, cars with catalytic converters put out literally *an order of magnitude* more NOX than an unequiped engine. When the EPA originally set the pollution standards, and approved catalyic converters as a means for achieving them, they were primarilly concerned about Carbon Monoxide and UnBurned Hydrocabon emissions. M\k z PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain The converters reduced this, which was a "Good Thing". NOX was viewed as acceptable because it was "produced in Nature" by Lightning and Plant decay, and furthermore acts as a fertilizer (soil bacteria use it to "fix" Nitrogen); so it too was a "Good Thing", or at least not a "Bad Thing". It apparently never occured to anyone that "Bad Things" are also "produced in Nature", and that it is possible to to have too much of a "Good Thing"... Or to question later whether a "Good" decision might have had "Bad" consequences. (Most of the "Environmentally Aware" individuals I have questioned on this issue actually believe that catalytic converters *reduce* NOX emmisions!!! While the newer ones aren't *QUITE* as bad as the old ones (the EPA has set tougher standards on NOX since then), they *STILL* produce *LOTS* of NOX.) Some will argue that this scenario most be wrong, since H2SO4 acid-plumes *are* found downwind of Power-plants, and since Europe's UnBurned Hydrocabon emissions. M\k z PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain Acid-rain problem is much worse than North America's, even though they don't use catalytic converters. I counter this with the following three observations: 1) Satellite measurements show that the entire Northern hemisphere has a fairly uniform "NOX hood"; apparently the residence time for NOX in the atmosphere is long enough for it to diffuse through the entire wind- system, but it doesn't cross the Tropical Convergence region at the Equator very effectively. 2) Measurements show little correlation between *local* atmospheric SO2- concentration and *local* H2SO4 concentration in percipitation (although *global* averaging does show some correlation). This suggests there are probably other factors in H2SO4 production besides atmospheric SO2. 3) In the U.S., while we mostly hear complaints about Acid Rain from the NorthEast and Canada, West of the Rockies there is also an Acid problem, *are* found downwind of Power-plants, and since Europe's UnBurned Hydrocabon emissions. M\k z PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain 7but it is predominantly due to H2NO3. Only as you go East do you find the H2SO4 concentration become dominant. Do they have that many less Coal-fired power-plants than the East does? They certainly aren't using Nukes, at least in California ;-) ... and they have a *LOT* of Cars ... After retrofitting Coal-fired Power-plants with Sulfur-scrubbers (at great public expense), will we find out that it was *REALLY* all those catalytic converters that we hung on cars (also at great public expense)? And what will the All-Knowing and All-Wise Politicians and Beaureucrats who put the rest of us into this position (while making us pay for it). do then? Gordon D. Pusch | Try using ; if that doesn't Physics Dept., VPI&SU | work, try . (our Node-Name Acid Rain from the NorthEast and Canada, West of the Rockies there is also an Acid problem, *are* found downwind of Power-plants, and since Europe's UnBurned Hydrocabon emissions. M\k z PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain iBlacksburg VA 24061 | got changed recently ... ) +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "... Engineers ... Always *changin'* things ... | | It's like a Dam' *Computer Center* in here ..." --- L. McCoy, M.D. | | | | Q: How many System Programmers does it take to screw in a light-bulb? | | A: *ONE*; He holds the bulb, and the World revolves around him ... | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ -------------------------------- sition (while making us pay for it). do then? Gordon D. Pusch | Try using ; if that doesn't Physics Dept., VPI&SU | work, try . (our Node-Name Acid Rain from the NorthEast and Canada, West of the Rockies there is also an Acid problem, *are* found downwind of Power-plants, and since Europe's UnBurned Hydrocabon emissions. M\k ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 88 06:42:42 GMT From: mailrus!ncar!noao!asuvax!nud!anasaz!john@Rutgers.EDU (John Moore) Article-I.D.: <1249@anasaz.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In article <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: ]In article <1232@anasaz.UUCP], john@anasaz (John Moore) writes: ]] ^^^^^^^ This little bit of ]]sarcasm won't exactly kill us, but it certainly hints at the bias in ]]this publication! ] ]Oh? You mean truly unbiased observers carefully avoid pointing out ]fraudulent pipe dreams for what they are? ] H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 B No... I mean that truly unbiased observers will try to point out the fraud by both sides, rather than always picking on one side! ] ]]? EDUCATION - The Democrats commit themselves to "the principle ]]?that no one should be denied the opportunity to attend college ]]?for financial reasons," while the Republican platform promises ]]?"to challenge college administrators to exercise more fiscal ]]?responsibility." The Republicans offer a big list of small ]]?promises, such as protecting the Pledge of Allegiance in schools. ] ]]Now tell me.... what does the above paragraph have to do with physics? ] ]It seems pretty obvious to me. Support for education: which party is ]pushing it? Contrariwise, which party is sending clear cut signals ]of cuts in programs? Just how much concern over *education* is shown H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ]by a candidate making his biggest election issue the Pledge of Alle- ]giance? Once again, you and WN are picking on posturing which has little to do with what either parties will actually do. It certainly is far removed from physics. ] ]] We both know that both parties are pledging to ]]improve education (and probably won't do it anyway). ] ]Whether education is improved or not by throwing money at it, I wouldn't ]know. But I sure don't think academic physics research is *harmed* by ]government investment in education. Ever hear of the University of Geor- ]gia, over in Atlanta? Or the University of Texas, at Houston? Sure seems ]like a nice payoff to me. Did I ever say that academic physics research is harmed by investment in ]of cuts in programs? Just how much concern over *education* is shown H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 8education? Did the republicans say that? Are college costs rising out of sight because of physics research or because of increasing bureaucracy partly brought on by democrats social programs? When the republicans try to make colleges cost efficient, they are probably more interested in scientific research than the "social engineers" of the other party. ] ]]Thie above paragraph, especially the last sentence looks like a ]]gratuitous slam at the republicans. ] ]Perhaps you don't remember the McCarthy era. Perhaps you think it was ]mostly Hollywood actors getting blacklisted and all that rot. ] If you do, you have been in graduate school an awful long time! ]It wasn't. More than half of those investigated and generally ruined ]by the McCarthy witchhunts were mathematicians, physicists, and engi- is shown H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ]neers. Presumably the people who might be passing atomic bomb secrets ]--or worse--to the Commies. Of course, all of this turned out in the ]end to be McCarthy's political grandstanding. So what does this have to do with anything? Certainly your comments about McCarthyism have nothing to do with physics! I assume that you are somehow implying that republicans are McCarthyites! It seems to me that the modern McCarthyites are the democrats of the world, who go after Ollie North, Ed Meese, and Judge Bork! This is drifting far from physics, but that's what happens when you post biased crap on here (What's News)! ] ]I think quite simply that Richard Piner has a longer memory than you do ]of loyalty oaths and the terrible damage they did to the physics and I am well aware of the silliness that occurred then. I am aware of similar crap going on now from the other side. My father, a H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 professor at a major state university, was prohibited from doing his research because it was classified. Sounds like the McCarthyism of the left to me! No one is talking about loyalty oaths like the McCarthy era! They are saying that teachers can lead a pledge of allegance if they chose, or that school boards (who presumably represent the parents of the children they are educating) can require that. What, by the way, does that have to do with physics? WN brought up pledge of allegiance, not me! -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be someone else's. damage they did to the physics and I am well aware of the silliness that occurred then. I am aware of similar crap going on now from the other side. My father, a H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 -------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 88 06:57:31 GMT From: mailrus!ncar!noao!asuvax!nud!anasaz!john@Rutgers.EDU (John Moore) Article-I.D.: <1250@anasaz.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <3192@emory.uucp> In article <3192@emory.uucp> platt@emory.UUCP (Dan Platt) writes: >In article <1232@anasaz.UUCP> john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) writes: ?The thing that bothers me the most about the attitude of the complaint that ?I'm responding to is that the author seems to feel that Park shouldn't ?express his opinion if it has any political content. However, the sources No, I don't mind if he expresses his opinion as long as it is labelled as such. I do mind this publication appearing here time after time and going unrebutted, followed by a great flame war when it is rebutted. I read Mr. Park's propaganda for quite a while before responding, but eventually it got out of hand. I don't think H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 !all physicists share the same political views, but Mr. Park's were the only ones being expressed, and they were written as if they were universal. Let him preach. We will respond in kind. ?for physics research funds is largly derived from political considerations ?(at least in the university environment). Obviously, money is a hot issue ?that affects physics. So does political ideology. I don't challenge ?J. Moore's right to state his opinion. I do object to the suggestion that ?Park's comments should be devoid of political comment, and I feel that ?Park should be free to publish his opinion on the physics net any time he ?feels like it. I actually find his comments informative and interesting. ?Obviously he provokes discussion (which is also good). I enjoy this sort of discussion also. However, many people want physics only on this group. Why doesn't Mr. Park post his political thing on either a politics group or sci.misc, at which point we can rant and rave at each other as much as we want in an appropriate forum? H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88  You are right that the business of physics is political, but the science is not! The business of physics is concerned with the logistics of physics, not the science itself. That includes the allocation of resources. In addition, as has been pointed out, the ethics of practicing physics (and engineering, my discipline) needs discussion. However, What's News doesn't address such things directly. Rather, it is written as the newsletter of an activist special interest group. There is no counter group to this (there rarely is... one of the problems of special interst politics). WN is not written to provoke discussion as far as I can tell. It is written to (in the cases challenged) take gratuitous slams at folks. For example, much SDI comments there and throughout the debate consist of shadowboxing, with both sides punching at the other sides shadow and not the real issues. Attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield is an example - it avoids the real discussion. Why can't WN or much as we want in an appropriate forum? H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 Csome other publication ON THE NET address it in a more balanced way? The way WN hits it is bound to provoke EMOTIONAL discussions, and those turn into flame wars, and on and on. (Pardon the rambling... just winding down after 4 days of dealing with a hurricane.) physicists a -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be someone else's. -------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 88 18:32:31 GMT politics). WN is not written to provoke discussion as far as I can tell. It is written to (in the cases challenged) take gratuitous slams at folks. For example, much SDI comments there and throughout the debate consist of shadowboxing, with both sides punching at the other sides shadow and not the real issues. Attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield is an example - it avoids the real discussion. Why can't WN or much as we want in an appropriate forum? H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 From: nrl-cmf!ukma!gatech!emory!platt@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Dan Platt) Article-I.D.: <3208@emory.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <3192@emory.uucp> <1250@anasaz.UUCP> > >I enjoy this sort of discussion also. However, many people want >physics only on this group. Why doesn't Mr. Park post his political >thing on either a politics group or sci.misc, at which point we can >rant and rave at each other as much as we want in an appropriate forum? Why not set up a sci.physics and a sci.physicis.pol (personally, I don't know if these two really can be separated since so much of the quality and nature of science is political --- something I wouldn't have liked at all as an undergrad, but which I've found fascinating since)... ghout the debate consist of shadowboxing, with both sides punching at the other sides shadow and not the real issues. Attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield is an example - it avoids the real discussion. Why can't WN or much as we want in an appropriate forum? H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 L> >You are right that the business of physics is political, but >the science is not! Oh really? It is definitely true that science is based on the application of high standards (some of which aren't completely definable) in the persuit of objective truth; but the nature of what the applications are, the way applications are made, the moneys involved, the indirect returns of pure research vs. directed R/D programs --- namely the 'business' of physics --- really do make a hard impact on physics (a good fraction of producing a paper has to do with determining the most appropriate method of presentation so that people will decide it is relavant --- selling the paper --- rather than just presenting the bones of the effort which contains the actual objective facts; I've come to the conclusion that this not only isn't wrong, but it is best since it reflects the fact the researchers have limited time, limited resources, and a need to determine how these are allocated ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS and the salesmanship also allows the motivation of the work to be described as well H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 which isn't objective, but is very human). > ... The business of physics is concerned with >the logistics of physics, not the science itself. That includes >the allocation of resources. In addition, as has been pointed out, >the ethics of practicing physics (and engineering, my discipline) >needs discussion. However, What's News doesn't address such >things directly. Rather, it is written as the newsletter of >an activist special interest group. There is no counter group >to this (there rarely is... one of the problems of special >interst politics). Well, why not? It strikes me as interesting that Park goes through the effort to compile this news letter (it is an allocation of time and resources on his part that he finds worth while, and from which charity I feel that I benefit) while there is no competition. There is little stopping the 'opposing' view from stating their side of the story. Why not start a nd a need to determine how these are allocated ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS and the salesmanship also allows the motivation of the work to be described as well H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 f'conservative' letter? >... WN is not written to provoke discussion as >far as I can tell. It is written to (in the cases challenged) >take gratuitous slams at folks. For example, much SDI comments >there and throughout the debate consist of shadowboxing, with >both sides punching at the other sides shadow and not the real >issues. Attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield is >an example - it avoids the real discussion. Why can't WN or >some other publication ON THE NET address it in a more balanced >way? The way WN hits it is bound to provoke EMOTIONAL discussions, >and those turn into flame wars, and on and on. One aspect of editorial comment; even in a more open forum such as 'Meet the Press' is that various aspects of public concern may be aired and examined in detail, and the personalities involved may be seen in action. 'opposing' view from stating their side of the story. Why not start a nd a need to determine how these are allocated ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS and the salesmanship also allows the motivation of the work to be described as well H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 eThis may not be as open as a 'Meet the Press' but it does address the issues to an audience sufficiently sophisticated on some aspects of the technology to appreciate the problems. As to specific problems such as 'attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield' it may be worth while to point out that one of the original selling points of SDI was the creation of such a shield. At one level, I feel ripped off (many tax dollars went into SDI in research that may never be publishable and which benefits more fundamental research only a little) in that the money has gone into a program contrary to the way I'd like to see the money spent, and I don't even get to benefit from protection from incomming missles for my tax dollars! (NOTE: Some of the money which paid our group's grants were military --- but it wasn't SDI.) As to editorial comment --- I think most people recognize it when they see it. I don't think that Park is putting it off as 'the opinion of APS' any more than my statements would reflect the opinion of the granting agencies that fund the research that I've taken part in! H ĩPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88  >-- >John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john >(602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... >The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be >someone else's. Dan Platt -------------------------------- while to point out that one of the original selling points of SDI was the creation of such a shield. At one level, I feel ripped off (many tax dollars went into SDI in research that may never be publishable and which benefits more fundamental research only a little) in that the money has gone into a program contrary to the way I'd like to see the money spent, and I don't even get to benefit from protection from incomming missles for my tax dollars! (NOTE: Some of the money which paid our group's grants were military --- but it wasn't SDI.) As to editorial comment --- I think most people recognize it when they see it. I don't think that Park is putting it off as 'the opinion of APS' any more than my statements would reflect the opinion of the granting agencies that fund the research that I've taken part in! H yPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Matter wave compression >---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 88 15:42:17 GMT From: jwtlai@violet.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) Article-I.D.: <8526@watdragon.waterloo.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12133@oberon.USC.EDU> In article <12133@oberon.USC.EDU> robiner@ganelon.usc.edu (Steve) writes: >Question: If matter is a wave as current quantum mechanics suggests, >why wouldn't this wave also be compressed in the direction of motion, >just as light should be, if there is an ether. According to quantum mechanics, both matter and light exhibit characteristics of both waves and particles. This wave-particle duality has been verified. >If they are both compressed, then the path length of light would be >shortened by the same amount as the ruler which measures it's distance. [material deleted] >` yPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Matter wave compression >What I'm getting at is, why can't one say that the matter waves and >light waves both travel in the SAME medium, so that no compression >should be noticed? > >=Steve= Your compression should be in some way proportional to velocity. The compression of a real (material) ruler would not compress space. For the real ruler to have the same compression as the travelling light, it would have to be going at the same velocity as light and in the same direction, otherwise a difference in compression would be noticed. If we used a stationary ruler, it would not be compressed by the motion of the light. Jim -------------------------------- >If they are both compressed, then the path length of light would be >shortened by the same amount as the ruler which measures it's distance. [material deleted] >` ! PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Linear Algebra/Tensor Analysisq---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 88 17:32:31 GMT From: pur-ee!pur-phy!sho@j.cc.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) Article-I.D.: <1440@pur-phy> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <44400028@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk< <2801@pt.cs.cmu.edu< <3633@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <9450@ihlpa.ATT.COM> In article <9450@ihlpa.ATT.COM> lew@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Lew Mammel, Jr.) writes: >I think physicists ( or physics students ) miss a lot by taking the >naive approach to tensors in particular and linear algebra in general. >This shows up particularly in QM where duality is important. I'm taking the manditory math-for-first- year-grad-students class here, and there are some aspects of the treatment of tensors which I thought were strange. First, the good news. At least the instructor uses the metric tensor for Minkowski space instead of the ict business ` ! PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Linear Algebra/Tensor Analysise(if GR gets taught next term, he'll be teaching it, so this is good news) and he uses upper and lower indeces, which I like. However, some of the stuff he's doing is distinctly different from the GR class I had as an undergrad (which is not to say it's wrong, just different.) Like I said before, he defined tensors by their transformation properties. We are already doing covariant derivatives, and he has yet to talk about basis vectors and their dual basis one-forms. He hasn't defined one-forms as tensors, but rather as vectors which transform differently. This made the explination of raising and lowering indeces completely arbitrary, since he gave no ideas as to which vectors should transform into which one-forms anyways. He told us to use the metric tensor, without specifying why the result was what you wanted. Distressing. -Sho t business ` ! PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Linear Algebra/Tensor Analysis"-------------------------------- l be teaching it, so this is good news) and he uses upper and lower indeces, which I like. However, some of the stuff he's doing is distinctly different from the GR class I had as an undergrad (which is not to say it's wrong, just different.) Like I said before, he defined tensors by their transformation properties. We are already doing covariant derivatives, and he has yet to talk about basis vectors and their dual basis one-forms. He hasn't defined one-forms as tensors, but rather as vectors which transform differently. This made the explination of raising and lowering indeces completely arbitrary, since he gave no ideas as to which vectors should transform into which one-forms anyways. He told us to use the metric tensor, without specifying why the result was what you wanted. Distressing. -Sho t business ` PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Sep 88 01:47:19 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14397@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <1249@anasaz.UUCP> In article <1249@anasaz.UUCP>, john@anasaz (John Moore) writes: >[miscellaneous bullshit] Excuse me: you asked a question how one WN column could have anything to do with physics. I answered that. If you don't like the answer, too bad. It was not an invitation to debate politics qua politics. Get lost. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 ! PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 & -------------------------------- -------------------------- Date: 18 Sep 88 01:47:19 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14397@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <1249@anasaz.UUCP> In article <1249@anasaz.UUCP>, john@anasaz (John Moore) writes: >[miscellaneous bullshit] Excuse me: you asked a question how one WN column could have anything to do with physics. I answered that. If you don't like the answer, too bad. It was not an invitation to debate politics qua politics. Get lost. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 ! O@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Automotive air conditioning wi ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 88 21:45 EDT From: Nick Papadakis Automobile AC seemed to be a hot topic awhile ago, so I thought this might be of interest: HEAT PIPE MAY HELP TO KEEP YOU COOL An experiment at Colorado State University may yield a new, cheap automobile air conditioner. Mechanical engineer Richard I. Loehrke is trying to improve on the heat pipe, a simple heat transfer device conceived in 1942 by an Ӝ O@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Automotive air conditioning wiengineer at General Motors Corp. A small amount of liquid is enclosed in a pipe lined with a porous material. Acting like a lamp wick, the porous material draws the liquid from the cool end of the pipe to the end that's being warmed by an external heat source such as a power plant or an overheated computer. At the warm end of the pipe, the liquid evaporates, absorbing heat. The warm vapor flows back to the pipe's cool end where it condenses to a liquid, releasing its heat, and starting the cycle over again. The heat pipe operates continually without the use of a compressor or a pump, and given time, can move a tremendous amount of heat. Mr. Loehrke wants to narrow the pipe at its midpoint and add an arm perpendicular to the midsection, creating a T shape. When the warm vapor flows through the narrowed midpoint, it speeds up and its pressure drops. The low pressure causes liquid in the arm to evaporate and be Ӝ O@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Automotive air conditioning wipulled into the pipe. With water as the working fluid, the arm could be cooled to a chilly 45 degrees Fahrenheit, if the two ends are at 120 degrees and 75 degrees respectively, the engineer calculates. For a practical heat pipe, other working liquids would probably be used. For an auto, Mr. Loehrke envisions the warm end of the pipe heated by the radiator and the condenser end cooled by the outside air. The chilled arm would draw heat out of the passenger compartment. The cooler would have no moving parts and wouldn't put a load on the engine as compressor-driven coolers do. -- From the Wall Street Journal, Aug. 19 1988 page 19, "Lab Notes" section, by Jerry E. Bishop Re-typed without permission. pendicular to the midsection, creating a T shape. When the warm vapor flows through the narrowed midpoint, it speeds up and its pressure drops. The low pressure causes liquid in the arm to evaporate and be Ӝ O@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Automotive air conditioning wi"-------------------------------- as the working fluid, the arm could be cooled to a chilly 45 degrees Fahrenheit, if the two ends are at 120 degrees and 75 degrees respectively, the engineer calculates. For a practical heat pipe, other working liquids would probably be used. For an auto, Mr. Loehrke envisions the warm end of the pipe heated by the radiator and the condenser end cooled by the outside air. The chilled arm would draw heat out of the passenger compartment. The cooler would have no moving parts and wouldn't put a load on the engine as compressor-driven coolers do. -- From the Wall Street Journal, Aug. 19 1988 page 19, "Lab Notes" section, by Jerry E. Bishop Re-typed without permission. pendicular to the midsection, creating a T shape. When the warm vapor flows through the narrowed midpoint, it speeds up and its pressure drops. The low pressure causes liquid in the arm to evaporate and be Ӝ >`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl\---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 88 21:52:55 GMT From: tektronix!percival!bucket!leonard@DECVax.DEC.COM (Leonard Erickson) Article-I.D.: <1058@bucket.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3307@homxc.UUCP> <15900027@bucc2> In article <15900027@bucc2> spock@bucc2.UUCP writes: <>First, there is no evidence that even the normal 4 dimensions "go on forever". <>If the curvature of spacetime is positive (closed universe) the are maximum <>values for space and time dimensions. (think of a sphere, the is a maximum <>distance) < `PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl%No, because I meant the *surface* of a sphere. Thus there isn't any "edge" it just goes on around. If you are a two-dimensional creature on the surface of a sphere, you will never find an edge. But if you go far enough in a "straight line" (actually along a geodesic) you will return to your starting point. <>Second the "rolled up" bit means that ALONG THOSE DIMENSIONS the distance <>"around" the universe is that incredibly small distance you mentioned. So <>these ideas about jumping to other parts of the universe via the "small" <>dimensions is nonsense. (unless you have a way of "leaving" the hyper- <>surface of this hyper-cylinder and "returning". And then it'll only work <>if the hyper-cylinder is very tangled in some higher space. And the ods <>are that you couldn't control *where* you returned...) < `PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littlif the hyper-cylinder is very tangled in some higher space. And the ods <>are that you couldn't control *where* you returned...) < In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> dekleer.pa@Xerox.COM writes: >I find the explanations offered so far intuitively unsatisfying. For example, > > The basic point is that tidal forces are due to *differences* in > the gravitational attraction felt at two different points. If you > stand underneath the moon then you are closer to it than most of the > earth and feel a stronger gravitational attraction to it than most > of the earth does. If you are on the opposite side of the earth > than you feel less of an attraction to the moon than most of the > earth does. ... 1 /`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES > >This is intuitively incomplete. Suppose for some reason we had a >tractor beam which fixed the centers of the earth and moon. In this >case the water further away from the moon feels less gravitational >attraction than the rigid earth, but this WOULD NOT result in a bulge >away from the moon. Indeed there would only be one bulge facing the >moon. Well, to mess up things even more, let's try another way of reasoning. (A more concrete, a less scietific one.) First, imagine a planet without continents at all. This gives us a planet inside of a bubble of water. Now, when moons gravitational force attracts water, that is facing moon, with greater force than the opposite side of this water bubble, it will become elliptical. This is because the gravity is stronger on the moon-side, than the other side. But it DOES NOT mean, that the other side is BULGING AWAY from the moon. It has only moved little less toward moon than the moon-side. And now 1 /`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES the planet itself: it is affected with gravity that is halfway between gravity on the moon-side and the other side, therefore it is moved only halfway toward the moon when compared to the movement of water on moon-side, BUT twice the movement of the other side. Result: Water on moon-side goes towards moon, say, 24 meters. The planet moves 18 meters, and water on the other side moves only 12 m. And we find ourselves with tidal waves of 6 meters. (Numbers are only for clarity's sake, not any real values.) I KNOW, this wasn't scientific explanation, but maybe I am not a scientist myself... -------------------------------- cing moon, with greater force than the opposite side of this water bubble, it will become elliptical. This is because the gravity is stronger on the moon-side, than the other side. But it DOES NOT mean, that the other side is BULGING AWAY from the moon. It has only moved little less toward moon than the moon-side. And now 1 ;`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 11:15 EDT From: (Brainwave Surfer) X-Original-To: @PHYSICS.NET_ADDRESS, AGNEW Distribution-File: PHYSICS@SRI-UNIX.ARPA As a first-timer to the Physics Net, I see lots of good stuff here. However, I'm puzzled... There is such a lopsided view of the "Star Wars" system!! In view of the fact that the Union of Concerned Scientist's survey was returned by only 3% (If my memory serves me correctly) of those interviewed, whatever happened to that good ole "give it a try" that put us all into this somewhat glorious age of technology?????? I can understand the viewpoints of expense, but even a 30% effective shield would be better than nothing, I believe. In case the US (or the USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped ` ;`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... would have made our planet's lithosphere uninhabitable... That alone would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? __________________________________________________________________________ /Jim Agnew, Programmer/Analyst | DISCLAIMER: \ / Medical College of Virginia | If anyone is caught using either my | / Virginia Commonwealth University | hints, info, or code, I will disavow | | Division of Neurosurgery | any knowledge of their activities! | | Box 508, MCV Station | I think this info is correct, but if | | Richmond, Va 23298-0508 | it is not: | | BITNET: AGNEW@VCURUBY | "This tape will self-destruct in | | Ma Bell Net: +1 804/786-8601 | five seconds. Good luck, Mr. Jim | | NO Collect calls accepted!! | Phelps." | |-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------------| | Space for cute saying here but I haven't been able to think of one... | \___________________________________________________________________________/ ` ;`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... "-------------------------------- sphere uninhabitable... That alone would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? __________________________________________________________________________ /Jim Agnew, Programmer/Analyst | DISCLAIMER: \ / Medical College of Virginia | If anyone is caught using either my | / Virginia Commonwealth University | hints, info, or code, I will disavow | | Division of Neurosurgery | any knowledge of their activities! | | Box 508, MCV Station | I think this info is correct, but if | | Richmond, Va 23298-0508 | it is not: | | BITNET: AGNEW@VCURUBY | "This tape will self-destruct in | | Ma Bell Net: +1 804/786-8601 | five seconds. Good luck, Mr. Jim | | NO Collect calls accepted!! | Phelps." | |-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------------| | Space for cute saying here but I haven't been able to think of one... | \___________________________________________________________________________/ ` AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88  AIList Digest Tuesday, 20 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 88 Queries: Sierra OPS5 Systems Engineering Level in KBS Genetic Learning Algorithms Model-based Reasoning Spatial Reasoning Intelligent Tutoring Systems Hybrid Knowledge Representation (MRS, KLONE, KRYPTON) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 88 18:40:16 GMT From: ai!neves@speedy.wisc.edu (David M. Neves) I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 kSubject: Sierra OPS5 I know a student who wants to use an OPS5 for the IBM PC. Sierra OPS5 is one possibility. From its ad it looks great. It is complete and accepts external C functions. Does anyone have actual experience with it? Any limitations that are not advertised? Is it appropriate for heavy debugging (i.e. making frequent changes to literalizes, rules, memory on a large production system)? -thanks, david ;David Neves, Computer Sciences Department, University of Wisconsin-Madison ;Usenet: {rutgers,ucbvax}!uwvax!neves ;Arpanet: neves@cs.wisc.edu ------------------------------ I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 Date: 16 Sep 88 19:44:50 GMT From: ece-csc!ncrcae!gollum!jdavis@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu (James P. Davis) Subject: Systems Engineering Level in KBS I am looking for any pointers to references regarding the "systems engineering level" of knowledge as defined for knowledge base management systems (KBMS). The only reference I have is in Brodie et al. *On Knowledge Based Management Systems*, where Brachman and Levesque discuss the various levels associated with knowledge representation and knowledge systems (knowledge level, symbol level, organization level). They mention this Systems Engineering level in passing, but do not fully define it. Does anyone have any references, or is anyone doing work in this area of further defining these "levels" (Ron and Hector, are you out there)? I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 The nature of my research in this area involves the definition of a "level" which allows structure and organization to be imposed on the Universe of Discourse (which doesn't conform to Newell's Knowledge Level, which deals specifically with what can be stated or implied about the world on a functional basis independent of organization or implementation). However, I am looking at this imposition of organization independent of how the knowledge schema is implemented or manipulated to carry out rational behavior (which doesn't confrom to Newell's Symbol Level either, which deals with issues of how rational behavior is realized on a machine, addressing such issues as how to exploit the syntactic properties of a representation technique to effectively produce rational actions, e.g., inheritance in frame systems). The perspective that I am approaching this from is based on the ideas from Database and data modeling involving the construction of an "enterprise model" of a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 structural description (in some formalism such as any number of deviations of the E-R model which have been researched) that captures domain objects, relationships, and constraints according to some set of model-dependent wff's. This description is a declarative representation of the UoD. What I am looking at is the correlation between this process in database/data modeling and constructing knowledge schemas for a domain in AI. The goal is to define an architecture for the tight coupling of database and knowledge based systems as KBMS'. It seems that some of the work that I am doing at this level between the KNowledge and Symbol Levels (which I call the "Enterprise Level" may be what has been termed the "Systems Engineering" Level. Is this Systems Engineering Level defined sufficiently? Is anyone working on it? Are there references? Anyone want to correspond regarding these levels? abase and data modeling involving the construction of an "enterprise model" of a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 wAny and all responses are appreciated. jdavis@Gollum.Columbia.NCR.COM Jim Davis Advanced Systems Development NCR Corporation ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 88 13:49:01 GMT From: thefool@athena.mit.edu (Michael A. de la Maza) Subject: Genetic Learning Algorithms I am currently working on a genetic learning algorithm(gla) engine that deling and constructing knowledge schemas for a domain in AI. The goal is to define an architecture for the tight coupling of database and knowledge based systems as KBMS'. It seems that some of the work that I am doing at this level between the KNowledge and Symbol Levels (which I call the "Enterprise Level" may be what has been termed the "Systems Engineering" Level. Is this Systems Engineering Level defined sufficiently? Is anyone working on it? Are there references? Anyone want to correspond regarding these levels? abase and data modeling involving the construction of an "enterprise model" of a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 draws inferences from a horse racing database (the results could be enRICHening). Has anyone compiled a bibliography of gla articles/books? If I'm inundated with responses I'll post a summary here. Michael A. de la Maza thefool@athena.mit.edu Query: What is the answer to this question? [There is a separate list covering genetic algorithms called GA-LIST. Send subscription requests to gref@NRL-AIC.ARPA. However, AIList will continue to carry occasional information ... In addition, offutt@caen.engin.umich.edu (Daniel M. Offutt) is offering a GA function optimization package. Contact him for details. ich I call the "Enterprise Level" may be what has been termed the "Systems Engineering" Level. Is this Systems Engineering Level defined sufficiently? Is anyone working on it? Are there references? Anyone want to correspond regarding these levels? abase and data modeling involving the construction of an "enterprise model" of a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88  - nick] ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 88 00:55:24 GMT From: ucsdhub!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!ncrcae!gollum!jdavis@ucsd.edu (James P. Davis) Subject: Model-based Reasoning I am looking for some good references on the subject of Model-based reasoning (MBR). I am also interested in finding out who is doing work/research in this area, and what domains are being investigated. Nobody seems to have put any special compendiums (like Morgan Kaufmann) in this area yet. Any of you out there? Specifically, I am looking at the area of using a modeling framework, which allows the structure and behavior for certain classes of "Enterprise Level" may be what has been termed the "Systems Engineering" Level. Is this Systems Engineering Level defined sufficiently? Is anyone working on it? Are there references? Anyone want to correspond regarding these levels? abase and data modeling involving the construction of an "enterprise model" of a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 domains to be expressed in some declarative form, to drive the reasoning process. My understanding of MBR is that it is an approach at exploiting the inherent structure and constraints of a system or enterprise to guide the process of reasoning about problems in the given domain. I am developing an "analogical" representation which allows the expression of domain semantics in terms of structure and constraint declaration constructs based on the syntactic construction of wff's in the modeling technique. The domain is information systems design. In theory, by developing a self-describing modeling formalism, in which the information systems design activity can take place, the nature of the solution space can be constrained such that only those solutions which adhere to the semantics of the formalism itself (in which are expressed the semantics of the domain application) are relevant. What's happening in MBR? How does it relate to "reasoning from first principles"? a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88  Any and all responses are appreciated. I can summarize to the net if requested. Jim Davis Advanced Systems Development NCR Corporation jdavis@Gollum.Columbia.NCR.COM ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 88 7:59 -0100 From: unido!lan.informatik.tu-muenchen.dbp.de!prassler@uunet.UU.NET Reply-to: unido!lan!prassler@uunet.UU.NET Subject: Spatial Reasoning Path: lan!prassler and constraint declaration constructs based on the syntactic construction of wff's in the modeling technique. The domain is information systems design. In theory, by developing a self-describing modeling formalism, in which the information systems design activity can take place, the nature of the solution space can be constrained such that only those solutions which adhere to the semantics of the formalism itself (in which are expressed the semantics of the domain application) are relevant. What's happening in MBR? How does it relate to "reasoning from first principles"? a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 Newsgroups: comp.cog-eng,comp.ai.digest Date: 19 Sep 88 07:58:55 GMT Organization: Inst. fuer Informatik, TU Muenchen, W. Germany Lines: 30 To people working or interested in the field of representation of large-scale space and spatial reasoning !! I'm a member of an AI and Cognitive Science group at the Technical University of Munich, West-Germany, working on connectionist models for spatial reasoning processes. I'm currently planning a research visit to the United States to get to know and may be to work a few months with people working on similar topics. Is anybody out there who is interested in such a collaboration. I expect to be financially independent through a six months scholarship form the German Academic Exchange Service. lutions which adhere to the semantics of the formalism itself (in which are expressed the semantics of the domain application) are relevant. What's happening in MBR? How does it relate to "reasoning from first principles"? a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 rSome personal data: Name: Erwin Prassler Education: Technical University of Munich Diploma in Computer Science, 1985 Address: Department of Computer Science Technical University of Munich Arcisstr.21 D-8000 Munich 2 West-Germany e-mail: unido!tumult!prassler@uunet.UU.NET interests: spatial reasoning, connectionist models, sailing ng on connectionist models for spatial reasoning processes. I'm currently planning a research visit to the United States to get to know and may be to work a few months with people working on similar topics. Is anybody out there who is interested in such a collaboration. I expect to be financially independent through a six months scholarship form the German Academic Exchange Service. lutions which adhere to the semantics of the formalism itself (in which are expressed the semantics of the domain application) are relevant. What's happening in MBR? How does it relate to "reasoning from first principles"? a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 " ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 09:46:53 -0800 From: Rika Yoshii Subject: Intelligent Tutoring Systems Could anyone send me a list of books and articles on Intelligent Tutoring Systems used to teach languages such as English, Spanish, Japanese, etc.? Also, is anyone aware of a system (besides TEIRESIAS, KLAUS) which allows an expert to use English in adding RULES to expert systems? Please send your reply to ryoshii@nrtc.northrop.com eople working on similar topics. Is anybody out there who is interested in such a collaboration. I expect to be financially independent through a six months scholarship form the German Academic Exchange Service. lutions which adhere to the semantics of the formalism itself (in which are expressed the semantics of the domain application) are relevant. What's happening in MBR? How does it relate to "reasoning from first principles"? a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88  Thank you. Rika Yoshii ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 15:25 From: Fabrizio Sebastiani Subject: Hybrid Knowledge Representation (MRS, KLONE, KRYPTON) I am looking for papers on hybrid knowledge representation (MRS, KLONE, KRYPTON and the like); I am pretty familiar with the "KLONE world" literature (at least, with what has gone on up to 1985), but don't know much about: 1) what has been written past that date; 2) what has been written AGAINST this approach. Can anyone provide references to relevant papers on the subject? Is anyone interested to discuss the issue? Thanks Fabrizio Sebastiani ths scholarship form the German Academic Exchange Service. lutions which adhere to the semantics of the formalism itself (in which are expressed the semantics of the domain application) are relevant. What's happening in MBR? How does it relate to "reasoning from first principles"? a domain, which is primarily a I-a AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #88 R ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** 19 Sep 88 15:25 From: Fabrizio Sebastiani Subject: Hybrid Knowledge Representation (MRS, KLONE, KRYPTON) I am looking for papers on hybrid knowledge representation (MRS, KLONE, KRYPTON and the like); I am pretty familiar with the "KLONE world" literature (at least, with what has gone on up to 1985), but don't know much about: 1) what has been written past that date; 2) what has been written AGAINST this approach. Can anyone provide references to relevant papers on the subject? Is anyone interested to discuss the issue? Thanks Fabrizio Sebastiani ths scholarship form the German Academic Exchange Service. lutions which adhere to the semantics of the formalism itself (in which are expressed the semantics of the domain application) are relevant. What's happening in MBR? How does it relate to "reasoning from first principles"? a domain, which is primarily a I-aӬlPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Sep 88 20:36:38 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <1987@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1464@edsel> In article <1464@edsel> kdo@lucid.com writes: >As long as people are thinking about lightning, can someone explain >how lightning rods work? Everything I know about it would make me >think that the effect of a lightning rod would be to get hit by >lightning, In the words of the immortal Benjamin Franklin: "A house thus furnished (with lightning rods) will not be damaged by lightning, it being attracted by the points, and passing through the SӬlPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff Mmetal without hurting anything." The way it happens is that as the negatively charged thundercell passes over the ground, the huge electrostatic potential causes positive ions to leap upwards from things like trees, the corners of houses, church steeples or any sharp or pointy object on the ground. This is what facilitates the `return stroke' after the stepped leader makes contact with it (see previous article for `stepped leader' & `return stroke'). The way a lightning rod works is to provide the highest point(s) for the positive ions to jump from, thereby making the rod a very attractive place for the stepped leader to land. >but I'm told they actually work by preventing lightning >strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? Yes and no...........(if I understand your question). The rods don't prevent SӬlPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff othe lightning itself, they just give it an easy place to go, thereby "preventing lightning strikes in the protected area." Just don't put a rod IN the protected area........place them AROUND the area to be protected (assumming that the area isn't too large). Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 04:11:42 GMT From: josh@klaatu.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) stepped leader to land. >but I'm told they actually work by preventing lightning >strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? Yes and no...........(if I understand your question). The rods don't prevent SӬlPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff Article-I.D.: In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1464@edsel> <1987@iscuva.ISCS.COM> >but I'm told they actually work by preventing lightning >strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? Yes and no...........(if I understand your question). The rods don't prevent the lightning itself, they just give it an easy place to go, thereby Actually they do prevent lightning by sucking (or spraying, depending on your definition) charge from the air the way a bleeder valve can prevent a boiler explosion. This is why they are sharpened. --JoSH hey actually work by preventing lightning >strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? Yes and no...........(if I understand your question). The rods don't prevent SӬlPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff & -------------------------------- 5@klaatu.rutgers.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1464@edsel> <1987@iscuva.ISCS.COM> >but I'm told they actually work by preventing lightning >strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? Yes and no...........(if I understand your question). The rods don't prevent the lightning itself, they just give it an easy place to go, thereby Actually they do prevent lightning by sucking (or spraying, depending on your definition) charge from the air the way a bleeder valve can prevent a boiler explosion. This is why they are sharpened. --JoSH hey actually work by preventing lightning >strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? Yes and no...........(if I understand your question). The rods don't prevent SӰh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 07:18:04 GMT From: bloom-beacon!coplex!laffu!chuck@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Chuck Sites) Article-I.D.: <144@laffu.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <3192@emory.uucp> <1250@anasaz.UUCP> <3208@emory.uucp> In article <3208@emory.uucp>, platt@emory.uucp (Dan Platt) writes: > > > >I enjoy this sort of discussion also. However, many people want > >physics only on this group. Why doesn't Mr. Park post his political ^^^^^^^^^^^ In the first place John, I don't believe that Mr. Park posts articles with particular bias one way or the other. When he has injected an opion into the "What's New" column (I believe 08/24/88 was an example with the SDI issue) he stated that it was with "This is my opion". Otherwise he is pretty straight with the issues. The way I see it, it's your bias toward Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 the far political right which is making you assume "Whats New" is full of "liberal" fallacies when in reality it is sane and responsible reporting on Mr. Parks part. I've read enough of his postings to know that jabs at one issue or another, are not based on his personal politcal points of view, but on the sanity (or insanity) of the issue itself. Now this is not to say that Mr. Parks articles are not bias, they are, but the bias is toward education, science, and physics in particular. [ Discusion of sci.politics, sci.misc, and sci.physics.pol, deleted] [ Also, discusion about the merits of posting "What New" in sci.physics] > >... WN is not written to provoke discussion as > >far as I can tell. It is written to (in the cases challenged) > >take gratuitous slams at folks. For example, much SDI comments > >there and throughout the debate consist of shadowboxing, with > >both sides punching at the other sides shadow and not the real > >issues. Attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield is Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 b> >an example - it avoids the real discussion. Why can't WN or > >some other publication ON THE NET address it in a more balanced > >way? The way WN hits it is bound to provoke EMOTIONAL discussions, > >and those turn into flame wars, and on and on. It seems to me that alot of the emotional part is due to your postings and attacks on Mr. Parks specifically, instead of any of issue metioned in his postings. If you want to argue SDI and it's merits, you have one moderate right here who will! And probably show you flaw after flaw through the concept as a whole. And I have some ideas on how to make the concept work as well, but it means some major disarming first which may not be palitable to the hawks. In my opion, (notice I said opion), rushing to deploy, SDI as it has been publically described, is simply begging for nuclear war. First deployment will force the Soviets to respond. Regardless of what, or how they respond, they will, and this does not exclude the possibility of preimtive strike. Think about this one before you rush out and brand all, anti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 as you like to put it so quaintly, "anti-nuke". (I hate this term anyway, because if your not "anti-nuke" then it must means your "pro-nuke". Doesn't this imply that "pro-nuke" are people who like bombs? There is something sick in that implication.) If you wan't a no-holds barred step for step sitiuation analysis of how SDI could lead us to the LAST world war, (LWW). You asked for it: I. Components of SDI are completed: a. Decision is made to deploy partial SDI plan. b. Some diversion is done to deflect political debate. II. Soviet intelligence picks up on deployment plans. A. Soviets prepare a responce which begins with: 1. Public ridicule in the world press regarding arms violations. 2. Abandoning of nogtiations. 3. Military responce plans. B. US prepares a responce to expected Soviet responces 1. Public redicule in world press. they will, and this does not exclude the possibility of preimtive strike. Think about this one before you rush out and brand all, anti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88  2. Abandoning of nogotiations, 3. Military responce plans. III. Public debate causes Soviet & US relations reach a low. A. Treaties are abaonded. 1. START & SALT are no longer applicable. B. Arms build-up on the soviet side. C. Actual SDI deployment is given OK on US Side. IV. Soviets threaten a responce. A. "We launch if you deploy" B. US calls soviet bluff. 1. US goes on alert. 2. Soviets go on alert. 3. SDI is deployment is initiated. C. Soviet troop movement in europe. 1. US responds with troop movement. V. Contact is made. A. Conventional war begins. 1. Public ridicule in the world press regarding arms violations. 2. Abandoning of nogtiations. 3. Military responce plans. B. US prepares a responce to expected Soviet responces 1. Public redicule in world press. they will, and this does not exclude the possibility of preimtive strike. Think about this one before you rush out and brand all, anti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88  B. Nuclear Battle weapons are used. VI. LWW. This analogy is based on totally on general assumptions of what one side will do in responce to the other, and are biased to reach the conclusion a LWW. But I believe that this does show, why some of us pro-defense folks have some very strong reservations about SDI. Now from the "anti-nuke" side, I beleive what bothers them is the fact that SDI is based on the premise that you are going to be attacked. Their reasoning is, "why have a shield unless you think your going to be hit" SDI is one complex issue regardless of which side of the ile your on. > SDI's failure to create a perfect shield' it may be worth while to point ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If you really want a good picture of how potentially flawed this 'perfect shield' is read the last issue of SCIENTIFIC AMERICA. The systems is described as being similar to the battle command system of the Alligous and this does not exclude the possibility of preimtive strike. Think about this one before you rush out and brand all, anti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 Acrusers. And it will have 'a man in the loop'! Now this seems a bit weak for an SD system considering how touchy Alligous system proved to be in a high state of actvity. > out that one of the original selling points of SDI was the creation of such > a shield. At one level, I feel ripped off (many tax dollars went into SDI > in research that may never be publishable and which benefits more fundamental > research only a little) in that the money has gone into a program contrary to > the way I'd like to see the money spent, and I don't even get to benefit from > protection from incomming missles for my tax dollars! This is a very valid point: What benifits do the taxpayers obtain from SDI? Well there are some benifits from the research. For example in the rail- gun system, it has been found that there are problems in the Lorentz Law of Electromanetism when dealing with high currents. However, besides this bit of trivia, not much else is said. I believe we obtain more with our tax-dollars in education as far as spin-offs. ti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88  > As to editorial comment --- I think most people recognize it when they see > it. I don't think that Park is putting it off as 'the opinion of APS' any > more than my statements would reflect the opinion of the granting agencies > that fund the research that I've taken part in! Editorial comment: One interesting issue I've heard recently debated in the arms control area, is the "Tritium Factor", and it's possible use as a forcing function in arms reductions (SCIENCE Sept 2, 1988 Vol.241) Remember how I said earlier that I could see SDI working if their was disarmament first. Here is how I see that being worked out. 1. The Soviets and the US both agree to using the TRITIUM FACTOR as a method of reducing arms. Say to 4000 warheads each. 2. At a given time, based on calulations of the tritium decay, The US and the Soviets agree to build Defensive Space Shields (DSS) aling with high currents. However, besides this bit of trivia, not much else is said. I believe we obtain more with our tax-dollars in education as far as spin-offs. ti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 / Which can block limited numbers of misssles both sides will maintain forever. In the mean time, roll back the deployment schedules, save some of our tax-dollars, and get this SDI issue cooled. > >-- > >John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john > >(602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... > >The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be > >someone else's. > > > Dan Platt -- "Nothing can be made fool proof because fools are just too damned clever" working if their was disarmament first. Here is how I see that being worked out. 1. The Soviets and the US both agree to using the TRITIUM FACTOR as a method of reducing arms. Say to 4000 warheads each. 2. At a given time, based on calulations of the tritium decay, The US and the Soviets agree to build Defensive Space Shields (DSS) aling with high currents. However, besides this bit of trivia, not much else is said. I believe we obtain more with our tax-dollars in education as far as spin-offs. ti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0Ӱh PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ______________________________________________________________________________ . . . . AUTHOR: Chuck Sites @ The Louisville Area Forum For Unix . . . . o o o o o UUCP: {mit-eddie}!bloom-beacon!coplex!chuck o o o o o O O O O O O ATT: (502)454-7218 \laffu!chuck O O O O O O ______________________________________________________________________________ -------------------------------- one else's. > > > Dan Platt -- "Nothing can be made fool proof because fools are just too damned clever" working if their was disarmament first. Here is how I see that being worked out. 1. The Soviets and the US both agree to using the TRITIUM FACTOR as a method of reducing arms. Say to 4000 warheads each. 2. At a given time, based on calulations of the tritium decay, The US and the Soviets agree to build Defensive Space Shields (DSS) aling with high currents. However, besides this bit of trivia, not much else is said. I believe we obtain more with our tax-dollars in education as far as spin-offs. ti-SDI talk as anti-defense, or Pf0ӸPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and nitric-acid goof ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 14:35 EDT From: GORDON D. PUSCH Original_To: PHYBOARD,PUSCHGD R.J. Hinde writes: In article <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> PUSCHGD@VTCC1.BITNET (Gordon D. Pusch) writes: > [a lot of interesting things about the possible cause(s) of acid rain, and] >>...Nitric acid (H2NO3) is most commonly used industrially... > >Atmospheric chemistry is not my forte, so I don't feel qualified to comment >on the substance of this posting, but I _would_ like to point out that nitric >acid is actually HNO3. Ooops!!! And I *knew* that! How stupid of me. Mea Culpa. I guess I shouldn't type these things unless I'm awake. Dammit, Jim, I'm a ӸPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and nitric-acid goof Physicist, not a Chemist ... !!! By the way, it looks like I haven't been getting most of the stuff on sciu.physics for about the last 2-3 weeks because of our node-name being changed. So if anyone else posted a response to my diatribe (and kept a copy), please eMAIL it to me directly at . Because *I'm* not an Atmospheric Chemist *either*, and I'd really be interested in any evidence pro *OR* con to my hypothesis (I don't consider it a theory yet). This has become all the more timely by the recently published papers implicating NOX rather than Unburned Hydorcarbons as the more promising target for reducing Ozone Pollution in cities. If I can gather enough evidence, I might even write my Congresscritters, Senatoids, and the EPA Director ... ӸPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and nitric-acid goof Gordon D. Pusch | Try using ; if that doesn't Physics Dept., VPI&SU | work, try . (our Node-Name Blacksburg VA 24061 | got changed recently ... ) +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "... Engineers ... Always *changin'* things ... | | It's like a Dam' *Computer Center* in here ..." --- L.E. McCoy, M.D. | | | | Q: How many System Programmers does it take to screw in a light-bulb? | | A: *ONE*; He holds the bulb, and the World revolves around him ... | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ -------------------------------- EPA Director ... ӼD PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM comment on JPOULIN`s 14 sep 88---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 16:46:13 PDT From: Herbert Homeier In his contribution of 14 Sep 88, 11:57 EST, Mr. or Mrs. Jboulin raised the question of the nature of absolute zero temperature, entropy and energy. It was pointed out, that for ONE system "the energy cannot be reduced". But if then the question is asked how different materials know, that their absolute zero temperatures agree, it seems to me that here implicitly the notion of two or more subsystems is used. What about the simple answer: Different subsystems, i.e. materials, know about the absolute zero temperatures of the other materials, because in reality they do interact. In this way, the energy of the whole system can be reduced further, until a common zero temperature is reached. Herbert Homeier ?OӼD PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM comment on JPOULIN`s 14 sep 88$ -------------------------------- ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 16:46:13 PDT From: Herbert Homeier In his contribution of 14 Sep 88, 11:57 EST, Mr. or Mrs. Jboulin raised the question of the nature of absolute zero temperature, entropy and energy. It was pointed out, that for ONE system "the energy cannot be reduced". But if then the question is asked how different materials know, that their absolute zero temperatures agree, it seems to me that here implicitly the notion of two or more subsystems is used. What about the simple answer: Different subsystems, i.e. materials, know about the absolute zero temperatures of the other materials, because in reality they do interact. In this way, the energy of the whole system can be reduced further, until a common zero temperature is reached. Herbert Homeier ?Oӿ1PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM How do lightning rods work? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 21:02 EDT From: EAE114%URIMVS.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU My vague understanding is that there's two kinds of lightning rod. Type A is the kind with a series of little spikes sticking up all along the ridgepole. These prevent lightning by bleeding off electrons from the little spikes before there's enough potential to to the clouds. The other kind is a tall pole, usually NOT attached to whatever you're trying to protect, but sticks up nearby, and provides a better path for lightning to follow. I don't know if anyone still uses the type B devices. They'd be dangerous in any populated area, so I doubt it. (Eristic: EAE114@URIMVS) -------------------------------- ACrPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 12:04:07 GMT From: tycchow@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Timothy Yi-chung Chow) Article-I.D.: <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> AGNEW%VCUVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU writes: >As a first-timer to the Physics Net, I see lots of good stuff here. >However, I'm puzzled... There is such a lopsided view of the "Star Wars" >system!! In view of the fact that the Union of Concerned Scientist's >survey was returned by only 3% (If my memory serves me correctly) >of those interviewed, whatever happened to that good ole "give it a try" >that put us all into this somewhat glorious age of technology?????? >I can understand the viewpoints of expense, but even a 30% effective >shield would be better than nothing, I believe. In case the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped @CrPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... w>would have made our planet's lithosphere uninhabitable... That alone >would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? If the nuclear attack were triggered by accident (by computer error, say), then yes, a 30% shield would be useful, since the likelihood is that only a few warheads would be fired. However, with an all-out nuclear attack, 30% is useless, since even 1% would probably be enough to destroy the US if enough missiles were released. As I understand it, the idea behind Star Wars is to make a defense system so good that offensive weapons become obsolete, and the arms race stops because both sides have only defensive weapons. The problems with this are: a) Because of the difficulty of performing field tests and because of the difficulty of anticipating future offensive tactics, it is virtually impossible to build a perfect defense; the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped @CrPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... b) In spite of the name, "defensive" weapons can be offensive. The temptation to deal the first blow is much greater if you know that your enemy can't strike back. -------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 15:16:17 GMT From: gsh7w@astsun1.acc.virginia.edu (Greg Hennessy) Article-I.D.: <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> AGNEW%VCUVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU writes: # #I can understand the viewpoints of expense, but even a 30% effective #shield would be better than nothing, I believe. In the words of Pogo, Dead is dead. Why spend a trillion dollars or so problems with this are: a) Because of the difficulty of performing field tests and because of the difficulty of anticipating future offensive tactics, it is virtually impossible to build a perfect defense; the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped @CrPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... =on something that ain't gonna work? -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w -------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 19:51:14 GMT From: loci@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (loci!clb) Article-I.D.: <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA>, AGNEW%VCUVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU writes: > From: (Brainwave Surfer) ing, I believe. In the words of Pogo, Dead is dead. Why spend a trillion dollars or so problems with this are: a) Because of the difficulty of performing field tests and because of the difficulty of anticipating future offensive tactics, it is virtually impossible to build a perfect defense; the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped @CrPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... > > I can understand the viewpoints of expense, but even a 30% effective > shield would be better than nothing, I believe. In case the US (or the > USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped > would have made our planet's lithosphere uninhabitable... That alone > would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? The biggest problem with the economics of SDI is that it is cheaper to build more missiles, overwhelming the system, than it is to improve the sheild. It does little good to spend trillions to stop 30% of the present missiles when an enemy could spend less to double or triple their numbers. It's a losing race from the beginning. -- CLBrunow - KA5SOF g field tests and because of the difficulty of anticipating future offensive tactics, it is virtually impossible to build a perfect defense; the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped @CrPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Loci Products, POB 833846-131, Richardson, Texas 75083 clb@loci.uucp, loci@killer.uucp, loci@csccat.uucp -------------------------------- > USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped > would have made our planet's lithosphere uninhabitable... That alone > would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? The biggest problem with the economics of SDI is that it is cheaper to build more missiles, overwhelming the system, than it is to improve the sheild. It does little good to spend trillions to stop 30% of the present missiles when an enemy could spend less to double or triple their numbers. It's a losing race from the beginning. -- CLBrunow - KA5SOF g field tests and because of the difficulty of anticipating future offensive tactics, it is virtually impossible to build a perfect defense; the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped @ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Can life evolve on Vulcan? (fo---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 17:09:28 GMT From: pyramid!decwrl!labrea!hanauma!rick@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Ottolini) Article-I.D.: <23476@labrea.Stanford.EDU> Spock's home planet has no moons. Biologists speculate life came onto land after a `training period' in the tidal flats. Then, how could land life arise on Vulcan? (The answer is simple and relevant to the tide discussion.) -------------------------------- 3`˒PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Tides & Moons ;---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 21:45 EDT From: EAE114%URIMVS.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU All of the explanations so far ignore the fact that all that water moving around has inertia. I've got a suspicion that if you suddenly removed the moon, it would be a long time before the tides stopped. Has anybody but me noticed that high-tide doesn't happen when the moon is directly overhead? (At least, not on Casco bay, down to Maine it doesn't) (Eristic: EAE114@URIMVS) -------------------------------- Tq` gPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 18:38:15 GMT From: mfryba@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Martin Francis Ryba) Article-I.D.: <3707@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1135@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1135@sri-arpa.ARPA> JPOULIN%BOWDOIN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU writes: >From: > >I have a little confusion that I would like to have cleared: > >As I understand absolute zero (from what I've been told), it's the state >of minimum entropy in a system. Its energy is not zero, but it cannot >be reduced. > >My confusion is that absolute zero is the same temperature for >all materials regardless of chemistry. How do these materials know to 0 gPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero  Here's the party line answer to your problem: Temperature is *not* a fundamental quantity, it is *defined*. Thus a substance doesn't have to "know" what temperature it is at. T = dE/dS (E is energy,S is entropy, and V is held constant) Absolute zero is therefore the situation where the energy can no longer be reduced. In most cases, energy always increases with entropy, so temperatures are generally positive, but negative temperatures can be created, but they are unstable because a negative temperature is *hotter* than +infinity. This discussion can be extended, but Kittel's "Thermal Physics" probably does a better undergrad-level job. or >all materials regardless of chemistry. How do these materials know to 0 gPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Absolute Zero Cheers. Marty Ryba, Dept. of Physics,PU (poor sop grad student) They couldn't care less about my opinions. -------------------------------- know" what temperature it is at. T = dE/dS (E is energy,S is entropy, and V is held constant) Absolute zero is therefore the situation where the energy can no longer be reduced. In most cases, energy always increases with entropy, so temperatures are generally positive, but negative temperatures can be created, but they are unstable because a negative temperature is *hotter* than +infinity. This discussion can be extended, but Kittel's "Thermal Physics" probably does a better undergrad-level job. or >all materials regardless of chemistry. How do these materials know to 0bBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU TRANSGENIC RESEARCH WORKSHOP Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 10:44:54 CDT To: From: " CATHARINE ANKENY" Subject: TRANSGENIC RESEARCH WORKSHOP The Iowa State University Biotechnology Council and the Bioethics Committee will be conducting a workshop on Transgenic Animal Research October 26-27, 1988. I am interested in obtaining information on criteria used by Universities and research institutions, to evaluate transgenic animal research proposals. Specifically, I would be interested in knowing: o who evaluates the research proposals - biosafety committees, bioethics committees, federal agencies, etc. o whether review processes consider transgenic research proposals cbBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU TRANSGENIC RESEARCH WORKSHOP  differently from other proposals involving animals. o are the social, moral/ethical, and economic implications of this type of research addressed in the review process. o what criteria are used to evaluate animal welfare issues which might be unique to transgenic animal research. The workshop is being held to help the University to determine appropriate methods for evaluating the transgenic research being done on campus. I would appreciate any comments or references that might be of interest to the workshop participants. Catharine Raffensperger Ankeny 503 Ross Hall, Iowa State University Ames, IA 50011 (515) 294-7256 S2.CXA@ISUMVS.BITNET cè BIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 07:40 +0200 From: Leif_Laaksonen%com.kpo.fi@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Subject: molecular graphics To: BIOSCI_BIOTECH@com.kpo.fi Message-ID: <8809200740.12568@COM.KPO.FI> My interest for some years has been quantum chemistry and statistical mechanics connected to molecular graphics. At our computer centre we have HYDRA, CHEMX and FRODO on our VAX 8650. As we all know the best solution is to run molecular graphics on a graphics workstation. I know that one can buy QUANTA for an Silicon Graphics IRIS. But an IRIS is quite expensive. There are lots of "inexpensive" SUN and APOLLO graphic workstations but I do not know about any molecular graphics software available to these computers. My question is Mz҈@è BIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics if anybody out there can give me some information about molecular graphic software to SUN and APOLLO computers. Leif Laaksonen Centre for Scientific Conmputing P.O.Box 40 SF-02101 ESPOO, FINLAND LAAKSONE@FINFUN as been quantum chemistry and statistical mechanics connected to molecular graphics. At our computer centre we have HYDRA, CHEMX and FRODO on our VAX 8650. As we all know the best solution is to run molecular graphics on a graphics workstation. I know that one can buy QUANTA for an Silicon Graphics IRIS. But an IRIS is quite expensive. There are lots of "inexpensive" SUN and APOLLO graphic workstations but I do not know about any molecular graphics software available to these computers. My question is Mz҈@jBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU aedinocarcinoma Date: 19 Sep 88 18:03:52 GMT From: jumbo!kolling@decwrl.dec.com (Karen Kolling) Organization: DEC Systems Research Center, Palo Alto Subject: aedinocarcinoma Message-Id: <13352@jumbo.dec.com> Sender: dave%umdc.BITNET@jade.berkeley.edu To: biotech@umdc.BITNET If anyone has any information about promising expermiental treatments, etc. for aedinocarcinoma of the lung, I would appreciate pointers sent to me off line, as I don't normally read this newsgroup. Our mailer garbles our address in message headers; the correct addresses are: uucp: (allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax)!decwrl!kolling arpanet: kolling@src.DEC.COM phone: (415)325-6407 C#jBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU aedinocarcinoma  Thanks. Karen 3:52 GMT From: jumbo!kolling@decwrl.dec.com (Karen Kolling) Organization: DEC Systems Research Center, Palo Alto Subject: aedinocarcinoma Message-Id: <13352@jumbo.dec.com> Sender: dave%umdc.BITNET@jade.berkeley.edu To: biotech@umdc.BITNET If anyone has any information about promising expermiental treatments, etc. for aedinocarcinoma of the lung, I would appreciate pointers sent to me off line, as I don't normally read this newsgroup. Our mailer garbles our address in message headers; the correct addresses are: uucp: (allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax)!decwrl!kolling arpanet: kolling@src.DEC.COM phone: (415)325-6407 C#xPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff T---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 20:50:47 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <1991@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1464@edsel> <1987@iscuva.ISCS.COM> J Storrs Hall writes: >Actually [lightning rods] do prevent lightning by sucking (or spraying, >depending on your definition) charge from the air the way a bleeder valve >can prevent a boiler explosion. > >This is why they are sharpened. > >--JoSH Y3xPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff Actually, the reason why they are sharpened is to provide the highest concentration of positive ions, i.e. #ions/cubic unit, in an attempt to `lure' the lightning to it, rather than some other place within the protected area. It's true that positive ions `spray' from the point. This is due to their high concentration and the hugh electrostatic field generated by the thundercell above. This, however, serves to ATTRACT the lightning because a strong positive streamer is able to leap upward to meet the stepped leader coming out of the cloud. Remember B. Franklin's words, "[lightning] being *attracted* to the points [of the lightning rod], and passing through the metal without hurting anything". This is why they are sharpened. (I find your analogy to the steam boiler bleeder value a most curious one. Could you explain how you came about it? A boiler will surely loose pressure when the valve is open simply because the pressure exits faster than it is regenerated internally. Lightning, on the other hand, looses it's `pressure' Y3xPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff U(strength) only because the electron exchange between the earth and cloud during a thunder bolt serves to reduce the electrostatic potential. These are analogous, I agree, therefore, I would tend to relate the bleeder valve to the lightning bolt and not to the lightning rod.....unless I've missed something.) Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- eing *attracted* to the points [of the lightning rod], and passing through the metal without hurting anything". This is why they are sharpened. (I find your analogy to the steam boiler bleeder value a most curious one. Could you explain how you came about it? A boiler will surely loose pressure when the valve is open simply because the pressure exits faster than it is regenerated internally. Lightning, on the other hand, looses it's `pressure' Y33@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 00:12:00 GMT From: wsmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700010@m.cs.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> Can tidal effects be measured in the atmosphere? Do meteorologists compensate barometric readings for the effects of the moon and sun? Bill Smith uiucdcs!wsmith wsmith@cs.uiuc.edu -------------------------------- \ 崠.PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM tidal forces ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 88 05:49:11 GMT From: GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET Article-I.D.: <52155GRV101@PSUVM> Has anyone read the book THE INTEGRAL TREES by Larry Niven? My question is, why do the integral trees exert an artificial gravity while other large objects su ch as islands do not. As I understand it, the gravity is caused by tidal forces from the neutron star. Could someone please explain the details? -------------------------------- ^g/ ! PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM underdetermined equations; was---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 14:56:05 GMT From: killer!convex!mozart!dodson@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Dave Dodson) Article-I.D.: <575@convex.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1137@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1137@sri-arpa.ARPA> knutsen writes: >Can anybody suggest a proper way to compose a solver for underdetermined >system of linear equations (the number of unknowns > the number of >equations) preferably using LINPACK ? Thanks in advance. > >S. Nomura >University of Texas at Arlington Use the QR decomposition described in Chapter 9 of the LINPACK Users' Guide. The routines SQRDC and SQRSL allow the number of rows to be less than the number of columns. Use the pivoting option. What you will get is the vector `=`! PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM underdetermined equations; wasthat satisfies the given equations and has minimum L2 norm among all vectors that satisfy the equations (the minimum norm solution is unique even though the general solution is non-unique). You're welcome. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Dodson {uiucdcs,sun,uunet,harvard,killer,usenix}!convex!dodson Convex Computer Corporation Richardson, Texas (214) 952-0234 -------------------------------- NPACK ? Thanks in advance. > >S. Nomura >University of Texas at Arlington Use the QR decomposition described in Chapter 9 of the LINPACK Users' Guide. The routines SQRDC and SQRSL allow the number of rows to be less than the number of columns. Use the pivoting option. What you will get is the vector `=`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 02:38:37 GMT From: ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) Article-I.D.: <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> In article <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> tycchow@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Timothy Yi-chung Chow) writes: >If the nuclear attack were triggered by accident (by computer error, >say), then yes, a 30% shield would be useful, since the likelihood >is that only a few warheads would be fired. However, with an >all-out nuclear attack, 30% is useless, since even 1% would probably >be enough to destroy the US if enough missiles were released. As >I understand it, the idea behind Star Wars is to make a defense >system so good that offensive weapons become obsolete, and the >arms race stops because both sides have only defensive weapons. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  From the Soviet point of view, at least 95% of the missiles must get throught to the US. This strategic estimation comes from the fact that the Soviets have an expertly designed civil defense plan which would only work (by "work", I mean that it must protect the leaders and essential, skilled workers) if the US retaliatory force is minimal (less than 5%). So, the Soviets will not launch an attack if they think that they cannot almost completely destroy our retaliatory capacity. Thus, the US only needs to be able to put considerable doubt in the Soviets ability to wipe out our ICBM's and SAC bombers. With SDI, this "doubt" of the Soviets will be great. Really, the system does not have to be 100%, but it just has to be enough to scare the Kremlin. True, SLBM (from submarines) and cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  >b) In spite of the name, "defensive" weapons can be offensive. The > temptation to deal the first blow is much greater if you know > that your enemy can't strike back. The first SDI system will most probably not be perfect (meaning 100% destructin of incoming warrheads), so the US AND the Soviets will know that an attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is a much better, more stable, more efficient, and less costly deterrent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu 234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner Cambridge, MA 02139 -------------------------------- st has to be enough to scare the Kremlin. True, SLBM (from submarines) and cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Date: 21 Sep 88 04:25:31 GMT From: leech@proline.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) Article-I.D.: <4301@thorin.cs.unc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> In article <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> loci@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (loci!clb) writes: > The biggest problem with the economics of SDI is that it is cheaper > to build more missiles, overwhelming the system, than it is to > improve the sheild. No, the biggest problem with SDI is that people both pro- and con- are prone to making claims such as this without having such a system implemented to provide real data. -- Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ ``Needless to say, both in the United States and in the eucaryotic st has to be enough to scare the Kremlin. True, SLBM (from submarines) and cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  cell, once the old immigrants are comfortably settled and their place in society is established, they do their best to shut the door to any prospective new immigrants'' - Freeman Dyson, _Origins of Life_ -------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 11:34:49 GMT From: jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr) Article-I.D.: <7146@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> In article <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> loci@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (loci!clb) writes: > The biggest problem with the economics of SDI is that it is cheaper > to build more missiles, overwhelming the system, than it is to to say, both in the United States and in the eucaryotic st has to be enough to scare the Kremlin. True, SLBM (from submarines) and cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... > improve the sheild. What's the source for this? The estimate I have seen gives at least a 2:1 cost advantage to the defense. Remember: the interceptors are much smaller than ICBMs (beam weapons are not likely to be deployed in the next decade). The high end of the projected cost range of SDI (c. $300 billion over about 10 years) is less than the cost of our strategic nuclear forces. -- John Carr "When they turn the pages of history, jfc@Athena.mit.edu When these days have passed long ago, Will they read of us with sadness For the seeds that we let grow?" --Neil Peart -------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 14:39:37 GMT has to be enough to scare the Kremlin. True, SLBM (from submarines) and cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... From: riley@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley) Article-I.D.: <6369@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> <4301@thorin.cs.unc.edu> In article <4301@thorin.cs.unc.edu> leech@proline.UUCP (Jonathan Leech) writes: >In article <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> loci@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (loci!clb) writes: >> The biggest problem with the economics of SDI is that it is cheaper >> to build more missiles, overwhelming the system, than it is to >> improve the sheild. > > No, the biggest problem with SDI is that people both pro- and con- >are prone to making claims such as this without having such a system >implemented to provide real data. Wait a sec...this is an important issue. If building more missiles is rom submarines) and cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... economically competitive with the cost of shooting them down, then building more missiles is one of the obvious counter-measures for a "30% effective" SDI system. Whether a partially effective SDI system is a stabilizing or destabilizing force depends on factors like this. We have been badly burned in the past because our strategic planners have failed to adequately consider these sorts of issues--just look at MIRVS, which most analysts agree are a complete disaster, but which both sides must have because the other does. It's important, even crucial, to get these issues straightened out BEFORE building an SDI system. -dan riley (dsr@lns61.tn.cornell.edu, dsr@crnlns.bitnet) -wilson lab, cornell u. -------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 14:48:53 GMT is rom submarines) and cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... .From: gsh7w@astsun1.acc.virginia.edu (Greg Hennessy) Article-I.D.: <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In article ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: # # The first SDI system will most probably not be perfect (meaning 100% #destructin of incoming warrheads),so the US AND the Soviets will know that an #attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is a much #better, more stable, more efficient, and less costly deterrent. The present system assures us that an attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is as good, just as stable, just as efficient, and several Trillion dollars less costly. -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w -------------------------------- om-beacon.MIT.EDU> In article ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: # # The first SDI system will most probably not be perfect (meaning 100% #destructin of incoming warrheads),so the US AND the Soviets will know that an #attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is a much #better, more stable, more efficient, and less costly deterrent. The present system assures us that an attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is as good, just as stable, just as efficient, and several Trillion dollars less costly. -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia cruise missiles can get through the system more easily, but that can be solved in time as well. a-> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12133@oberon.USC.EDU> <8526@watdragon.waterloo.edu> In article <8526@watdragon.waterloo.edu> writes: >In article <12133@oberon.USC.EDU> robiner@ganelon.usc.edu (Steve) writes: >>Question: If matter is a wave as current quantum mechanics suggests, >>why wouldn't this wave also be compressed in the direction of motion, >>just as light should be, if there is an ether. > >Your compression should be in some way proportional to velocity. The >compression of a real (material) ruler would not compress space. For the Right, but the only way to do any measurements is with some kind of matter, such as mirrors on a rotating platform ( as in the Michelson-Morely experi- eC`>real ruler to have the same compression as the travelling light, it would >have to be going at the same velocity as light and in the same direction, >otherwise a difference in compression would be noticed. If we used a In the Michelson-Morely experiment, the compression was proportional to the velocity of Earth's obital speed, not the speed of light. What they were looking for was a relative difference in the travel time of light going across vs. through the Ether. >stationary ruler, it would not be compressed by the motion of the light. Right, and neither would the light! =Steve= ial) ruler would not compress space. For the Right, but the only way to do any measurements is with some kind of matter, such as mirrors on a rotating platform ( as in the Michelson-Morely experi- eC`>real ruler to have the same compression as the travelling light, it would >have to be going at the same velocity as light and in the same direction, >otherwise a difference in compression would be noticed. If we used a In the Michelson-Morely experiment, the compression was proportional to the velocity of Earth's obital speed, not the speed of light. What they were looking for was a relative difference in the travel time of light going across vs. through the Ether. >stationary ruler, it would not be compressed by the motion of the light. Right, and neither would the light! =Steve= ial) ruler would not compress space. For the Right, but the only way to do any measurements is with some kind of matter, such as mirrors on a rotating platform ( as in the Michelson-Morely experi- eC`KPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Sep 88 12:18 EST From: X-Original-To: physics@unix.sri.com, JPOULIN >Star Wars is 30% effective... Perhaps this sounds silly and naive, but peace is 100% effective. Doesn't is make more sense to spend the trillion dollars in huge programs to avoid] nuclear war than to deal with it? ====================== jpoulin%bowdoin@cunyvm.cuny.edu -------------------------------- hvPH)`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Order and Chaos ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 14:17:28 GMT From: ncar!gatech!bbn!aoa!carl@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Carl Witthoft) Article-I.D.: <432@aoa.UUCP> Just thought I'd drop off a poem written sequentially by Alexander Pope and J.C.Squire: Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said,"Let Newton be!" and all was light. It did not last: the Devil howling "Ho, Let Einstein be," restored the status quo. Applied Optics, v27n16, Aug1988, p 3578 -- j)`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Order and Chaos GAlix' Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) " Axis-navigo, ergo sum." {ll-xn,spdcc,...}!bbn!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201 And a cryptic anagram: Legal case of theft of a marble from Carl Witthoft. (Praise but no prize if you solve it.) -------------------------------- : God said,"Let Newton be!" and all was light. It did not last: the Devil howling "Ho, Let Einstein be," restored the status quo. Applied Optics, v27n16, Aug1988, p 3578 -- jMPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Larry Niven's "Integral Trees"---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 12:21:32 GMT From: gnf3e@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Gregory N. Fife) Article-I.D.: <2709@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU> In Larry Niven's "Integral Trees," the attraction is a product of the neutron star, not the tree itself. The tree is a rigid body orbiting with the velocity equal to that of a particle orbiting at the location of the tree's center of gravity. A person at the tip of a tree is a significant distance from this center, and the neutron star's gravity acting alone would give him a different velocity. In order to maintain the tree's trajectory (stay on the tree), the person must exert an additional force; he must hold onto the tree for dear life. The tree is trying to pull away from the person, and from the person's point of view, it appears that a force is trying to pull him off the tree. nMPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Larry Niven's "Integral Trees" This effect is "tidal" in the sense that it relies on the difference in gravitational attraction across the length of the tree. -------------------------------- vacs.cs.Virginia.EDU> In Larry Niven's "Integral Trees," the attraction is a product of the neutron star, not the tree itself. The tree is a rigid body orbiting with the velocity equal to that of a particle orbiting at the location of the tree's center of gravity. A person at the tip of a tree is a significant distance from this center, and the neutron star's gravity acting alone would give him a different velocity. In order to maintain the tree's trajectory (stay on the tree), the person must exert an additional force; he must hold onto the tree for dear life. The tree is trying to pull away from the person, and from the person's point of view, it appears that a force is trying to pull him off the tree. ne{"`THEORYNET U32799%UICVM.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU STOC 88 Proceedings A friend of mine has have one set of proceedings of STOC 88, which he will part from for $39 and pay for postage too. Please send a note to Uri Peled, U32799@UICVM on BITNET. zedTHEORYNET luks@FOG.CS.UOREGON.EDU Need Turing pictures  Two gargoyles are in the plans for our new computer science building and, as our department was allowed to choose the themes, we have requested that these display the visages of John von Neumann and Alan Turing, respectively. Since the artist (Wayne Chabre) needs to work from photos, he asked that we provide an assortment of snapshots showing various views of the individuals. Despite an initial warning from Paul Halmos that Johnny was actually quite camera shy, we did find an ample photographic record of von Neumann. That gargoyle is now complete (quite handsome and whimsically demonic). However, we have been less successful in finding pictures of Turing. At the moment we have little more than those shown in Andrew Hodges' book (Alan Turing - The Enigma) which includes an oft-reproduced 3/4 portrait. Chabre would especially like to see a good profile and some edTHEORYNET luks@FOG.CS.UOREGON.EDU Need Turing pictures vclear shots that show the subject doing something (other than posing for a picture). Does anyone know of a source for Turing images? Better still, does anyone have some photographs that they would allow us to reproduce? Thanks for any assistance. Gene Luks Computer and Information Science University of Oregon Eugene, OR 97403 luks@cs.uoregon.edu e individuals. Despite an initial warning from Paul Halmos that Johnny was actually quite camera shy, we did find an ample photographic record of von Neumann. That gargoyle is now complete (quite handsome and whimsically demonic). However, we have been less successful in finding pictures of Turing. At the moment we have little more than those shown in Andrew Hodges' book (Alan Turing - The Enigma) which includes an oft-reproduced 3/4 portrait. Chabre would especially like to see a good profile and some edTHEORYNET luks@FOG.CS.UOREGON.EDU Need Turing pictures  r shots that show the subject doing something (other than posing for a picture). Does anyone know of a source for Turing images? Better still, does anyone have some photographs that they would allow us to reproduce? Thanks for any assistance. Gene Luks Computer and Information Science University of Oregon Eugene, OR 97403 luks@cs.uoregon.edu e individuals. Despite an initial warning from Paul Halmos that Johnny was actually quite camera shy, we did find an ample photographic record of von Neumann. That gargoyle is now complete (quite handsome and whimsically demonic). However, we have been less successful in finding pictures of Turing. At the moment we have little more than those shown in Andrew Hodges' book (Alan Turing - The Enigma) which includes an oft-reproduced 3/4 portrait. Chabre would especially like to see a good profile and some e@THEORYNET joek@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU FOCS follies ------------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS FOCS Follies '88 Those of you attending this year's FOCS conference are probably facing a serious quandry: Which of White Plain's wild nighttime activities to indulge in? The possibilities seem endless. For instance, you can (1) Read your FOCS proceedings. (2) Try to reduce SAT to linear programming. (3) Determine how many conflicting definitions of zero-knowledge `ee@THEORYNET joek@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU FOCS follies  were used during the crypto session. (4) Tear apart your room in search of the overheads for your talk tomorrow. (5) Wonder how MIT's Lab for Computer Science Silver Anniversary bash is going while you're away. (6) Reread your old STOC proceedings. (7) Frantically redraw the overheads you've just realize are safely locked up in your office. (8) Aimlessly stare out your hotel window and count the cars driving by. (9) Fantasize about having FOCS at Puerto Rico next time. initions of zero-knowledge `ee@THEORYNET joek@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU FOCS follies /OR... (10) AMUSE AND IMPRESS FRIENDS, COLLEAGUES, AND NSA OPERATIVES BY PERFORMING A SKIT FOR THIS YEAR'S FOCS FOLLIES!!!!!!! What are the FOCS follies? Well, actually, I've never seen one myself. But Alok Aggarwal tells me they consist of a few skits, talks, or other miscellaneous activities at the start of the business meeting. Unlike the presentations given during the rest of the business meeting, the follies presentations are intentionally ludicrous. Examples from the past include the singing of IBM corporate songs, the acting out of famous algorithms, and talks on how to build a computer science department. I guess you had to be there. How can you get involved? If you would like to help out with a skit, song, contest, or any other presentation, just send me e-mail at `ee@THEORYNET joek@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU FOCS follies 1 joek@theory.lcs.mit.edu If you have some half-baked ideas for skits or contests, or if you're interested but want to talk more, please also send me mail so I can get back to you. If you don't have access to the right networks, you can send US mail to FOCS Follies '88 c/o Joe Kilian MIT Lab for Computer Science Room 330, 545 Tech Square Cambridge, MA 02139 If all else fails, you can call me at (617)253-6259. out of famous algorithms, and talks on how to build a computer science department. I guess you had to be there. How can you get involved? If you would like to help out with a skit, song, contest, or any other presentation, just send me e-mail at `ee@THEORYNET joek@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU FOCS follies To further sweeten the pot, Alok says we have some limited funds for props, prizes, and whatever graft we can sneak by him. If your idea requires some money, please contact me as soon as possible, so I can get some idea of how to divvy things up, and clear it all with Alok. One final word of inducement: At this year's FOCS conference, you will be subjected to a barrage of papers which represent MIT's idea of theoretical computer science. If not enough outside people show any interest in the FOCS follies, you will also be subjected to a barrage of presentations which represent MIT's idea of humor. Think about that long and hard. I'll be waiting to hear from you. involved? If you would like to help out with a skit, song, contest, or any other presentation, just send me e-mail at `ee`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 22:44:39 GMT From: mailrus!iuvax!pur-ee!pur-phy!sho@Rutgers.EDU (Sho Kuwamoto) Article-I.D.: <1452@pur-phy> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In article <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: >In article <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> tycchow@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Timothy Yi-chung Chow) writes: >>b) In spite of the name, "defensive" weapons can be offensive. The >> temptation to deal the first blow is much greater if you know >> that your enemy can't strike back. > > The first SDI system will most probably not be perfect (meaning 100% "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... >destructin of incoming warrheads), True, but SDI could still possibly act as a destabilizing force. The better the efficiency becomes, and the faster this efficiency increases, it becomes more tempting to start a war before you lose. I'm not neccesarily saying that rational beings would start a nuclear war, but that if we assume that our top officials are seriously contemplating nuclear war, it gets a lot more tempting if someone says, "Hey, I'm going to put up an SDI system tomorrow, so you'll have to grovel at my feet while I hold the threat of a nuclear strike over your head while I remain relatively safe. But don't do anything till then." well, the message is clear. And maybe that *is* how a preliminary, maybe 10% efficient SDI system will be interpreted. >so the US AND the Soviets will know that >an attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is a >much better, more stable, more efficient, and less costly deterrent. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... All too true. -Sho -------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 22:49:54 GMT From: pyramid!nsc!taux01!taux02!amos@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Amos Shapir) Article-I.D.: <149@taux02.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> <7146@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> The point most of the posters here did not seem to get is that the purpose of SDI is not just defense, but mainly *deterrence*. To fulfill this goal, it does not have to be perfect, or even deployed at all - just to make the other side realize there is a probability greater than zero that it may work. Gorbachev seems to have understood this point. ell, the message is clear. And maybe that *is* how a preliminary, maybe 10% efficient SDI system will be interpreted. >so the US AND the Soviets will know that >an attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is a >much better, more stable, more efficient, and less costly deterrent. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... -- Amos Shapir amos@nsc.com National Semiconductor (Israel) P.O.B. 3007, Herzlia 46104, Israel Tel. +972 52 522261 TWX: 33691, fax: +972-52-558322 34 48 E / 32 10 N (My other cpu is a NS32532) -------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 04:23:48 GMT From: ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) Article-I.D.: <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> In article <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> gsh7w@astsun1.acc.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) writes: >The present system assures us that an attack by either side will cause message is clear. And maybe that *is* how a preliminary, maybe 10% efficient SDI system will be interpreted. >so the US AND the Soviets will know that >an attack by either side will cause much destruction and death. This is a >much better, more stable, more efficient, and less costly deterrent. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... G>much destruction and death. This is as good, just as stable, just as >efficient, and several Trillion dollars less costly. I did not think that anyone believes in MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) anymore. The MAD doctrine (first called by McNamara, I think (?)) is no longer feasible. One of the major reasons for its obselesence, I my opinion, is the advances in the Soviets civil defense system. They could possibly believe that they could lauch an attack on the US without suffering major losses themselves. At first, this may seem incorrect, but analyze their plan: to neutralize the US retaliatory force to a point where the US cannot respond without suffering complete destruction. The Soviets may think that they can destroy enough of our strategic forces to make retaliation for the US, but not the USSR, suicide. Additionally, the Soviets strongly believe that their civil defense plans can greatly reduce the cost of a nuclear war. This is true! The Soviet civil defense is amazing, they can protect come of the population which the US can not do at all. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... S SDI has the potential to make nuclear missiles obselete, thus saving immense amounts of money that now go to weapons production and maintainance. Thank you, Alex Denner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu 234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner Cambridge, MA 02139 -------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 15:14:10 GMT From: gsh7w@astsun1.acc.virginia.edu (Greg Hennessy) Article-I.D.: <573@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> tralize the US retaliatory force to a point where the US cannot respond without suffering complete destruction. The Soviets may think that they can destroy enough of our strategic forces to make retaliation for the US, but not the USSR, suicide. Additionally, the Soviets strongly believe that their civil defense plans can greatly reduce the cost of a nuclear war. This is true! The Soviet civil defense is amazing, they can protect come of the population which the US can not do at all. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... jIn-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> <7146@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <149@taux02.UUCP> In article <149@taux02.UUCP> amos@taux02.UUCP (Amos Shapir) writes: #The point most of the posters here did not seem to get is that the #purpose of SDI is not just defense, but mainly *deterrence*. To fulfill #this goal, it does not have to be perfect, or even deployed at all - #just to make the other side realize there is a probability greater than #zero that it may work. Gorbachev seems to have understood this point. #-- If SDI "works" by destroying 80% of the incoming ICBM's then over 200 ICBM's will survive to hit the US, with many of them MIRVed. We'se dead Jim. -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu rongly believe that their civil defense plans can greatly reduce the cost of a nuclear war. This is true! The Soviet civil defense is amazing, they can protect come of the population which the US can not do at all. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... H UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w -------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Sep 88 17:58:22 EDT From: tom coradeschi >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 11:15 EDT >From: (Brainwave Surfer) >X-Original-To: @PHYSICS.NET_ADDRESS, AGNEW > >Distribution-File: > PHYSICS@SRI-UNIX.ARPA > >As a first-timer to the Physics Net, I see lots of good stuff here. >However, I'm puzzled... There is such a lopsided view of the "Star Wars" by destroying 80% of the incoming ICBM's then over 200 ICBM's will survive to hit the US, with many of them MIRVed. We'se dead Jim. -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu rongly believe that their civil defense plans can greatly reduce the cost of a nuclear war. This is true! The Soviet civil defense is amazing, they can protect come of the population which the US can not do at all. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  >system!! In view of the fact that the Union of Concerned Scientist's >survey was returned by only 3% (If my memory serves me correctly) >of those interviewed, whatever happened to that good ole "give it a try" >that put us all into this somewhat glorious age of technology?????? >I can understand the viewpoints of expense, but even a 30% effective >shield would be better than nothing, I believe. In case the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped >would have made our planet's lithosphere uninhabitable... That alone >would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? > Numbers I've heard (please don't ask for refernces) say we have enuf nukes to wipe out the world several tens of times over. Maybe even hundreds. So, say we can do 40X world destruction. (40WD). If we block 30% with SDI, that leaves only 28WD. Golly, gee. I like those odds. Escalation begets escalation. Doesn't matter what you call it. But that's just my opinion. tc can protect come of the population which the US can not do at all. "e`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" ARPA: tcora@ardec.arpa UUCP: ...!{uunet,rutgers}!ardec.arpa!tcora -------------------------------- to that good ole "give it a try" >that put us all into this somewhat glorious age of technology?????? >I can understand the viewpoints of expense, but even a 30% effective >shield would be better than nothing, I believe. In case the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped >would have made our planet's lithosphere uninhabitable... That alone >would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? > Numbers I've heard (please don't ask for refernces) say we have enuf nukes to wipe out the world several tens of times over. Maybe even hundreds. So, say we can do 40X world destruction. (40WD). If we block 30% with SDI, that leaves only 28WD. Golly, gee. I like those odds. Escalation begets escalation. Doesn't matter what you call it. But that's just my opinion. tc can protect come of the population which the US can not do at all. "eT@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Automotive air conditioning wii---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 22:53:00 GMT From: wsmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700011@m.cs.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1139@sri-arpa.ARPA> Is this public disclosure conducive to getting a patent? Bill Smith uiucdcs!wsmith wsmith@cs.uiuc.edu -------------------------------- /_6e?nPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 w---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Sep 88 14:50:23 GMT From: att!chinet!mcdchg!nud!anasaz!john@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (John Moore) Article-I.D.: <1257@anasaz.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <3192@emory.uucp> <1250@anasaz.UUCP> <3208@emory.uucp> In article <3208@emory.uucp> platt@emory.UUCP (Dan Platt) writes: ]benefit) while there is no competition. There is little stopping the ]'opposing' view from stating their side of the story. Why not start a ]'conservative' letter? An interesting question! Since I am a spectator, not a physicist, I can't take it on. Any conservative physicists out there? Are the SDI folks so busy they can't lobby? Of course, one problem is that liberal physicists not participating in SDI can talk about it (and even publish classified information). Those involved :W e?nPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 lcannot due to their security clearances. The CIA has the same problem defending itself. ] ]]... WN is not written to provoke discussion as ]]far as I can tell. It is written to (in the cases challenged) ]]take gratuitous slams at folks. For example, much SDI comments ]]there and throughout the debate consist of shadowboxing, with ]]both sides punching at the other sides shadow and not the real ]]issues. Attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield is ]]an example - it avoids the real discussion. Why can't WN or ]]some other publication ON THE NET address it in a more balanced ]]way? The way WN hits it is bound to provoke EMOTIONAL discussions, ]]and those turn into flame wars, and on and on. ] ] ]One aspect of editorial comment; even in a more open forum such as 'Meet ]the Press' is that various aspects of public concern may be aired and involved :W e?nPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 ]examined in detail, and the personalities involved may be seen in action. ]This may not be as open as a 'Meet the Press' but it does address the issues ]to an audience sufficiently sophisticated on some aspects of the technology ]to appreciate the problems. As to specific problems such as 'attacking ]SDI's failure to create a perfect shield' it may be worth while to point ]out that one of the original selling points of SDI was the creation of such ]a shield. At one level, I feel ripped off (many tax dollars went into SDI ]in research that may never be publishable and which benefits more fundamental ]research only a little) in that the money has gone into a program contrary to ]the way I'd like to see the money spent, and I don't even get to benefit from ]protection from incomming missles for my tax dollars! (NOTE: Some of the money ]which paid our group's grants were military --- but it wasn't SDI.) Fine... so attack the perfect shield aspect. But, if balance is intended, also discuss the protection of retaliatory forces aspect, which most responsible SDI supporters understand is one major aspect. Also, you will get to benefit from protection from 3rd world or accidental 1st world attacks even if the system isn't perfect. All I'm asking is that :W e?nPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 :these subjects get discussed. Poking fun at the astrodome idea simply fails to contribute to the discussion. ] ]As to editorial comment --- I think most people recognize it when they see ]it. I don't think that Park is putting it off as 'the opinion of APS' any ]more than my statements would reflect the opinion of the granting agencies ]that fund the research that I've taken part in! Until this latest discussion started, I thought that What's New was in fact a publication of APS being typed in here! It BADLY needs a disclaimer such as "opinion only, not representative of APS". -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be someone else's. lars! (NOTE: Some of the money ]which paid our group's grants were military --- but it wasn't SDI.) Fine... so attack the perfect shield aspect. But, if balance is intended, also discuss the protection of retaliatory forces aspect, which most responsible SDI supporters understand is one major aspect. Also, you will get to benefit from protection from 3rd world or accidental 1st world attacks even if the system isn't perfect. All I'm asking is that :W e?nPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 \ -------------------------------- Date: 19 Sep 88 15:26:03 GMT From: att!chinet!mcdchg!nud!anasaz!john@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (John Moore) Article-I.D.: <1258@anasaz.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <1232@anasaz.UUCP> <3192@emory.uucp> <1250@anasaz.UUCP> <3208@emory.uucp> In article <3208@emory.uucp> platt@emory.UUCP (Dan Platt) writes: >in research that may never be publishable and which benefits more fundamental >research only a little) in that the money has gone into a program contrary to >the way I'd like to see the money spent, and I don't even get to benefit from I forgot to comment on my previous reply: The fed's spend lots on things all of us wish they wouldn't! Think of the physics and space research we could do with the agricultural subsidy! SDI is expected to cost about 2X the annual agricultural which paid our group's grants were military --- but it wasn't SDI.) Fine... so attack the perfect shield aspect. But, if balance is intended, also discuss the protection of retaliatory forces aspect, which most responsible SDI supporters understand is one major aspect. Also, you will get to benefit from protection from 3rd world or accidental 1st world attacks even if the system isn't perfect. All I'm asking is that :W e?nPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 N subsidy. I do suspect that SDI is beneficial to physics and engineering research, since I doubt that SDI money is significantly reducing the funding to physics. That funding is competing with funding to farmers and other porkbarrel a lot more than it is competing with physics. Also, SDI does result in a lot of money being spent in physics and engineering. It is a shame that much of the work must be classified, but it does result in improvements in technology for research (if not basic research itself), and in training a lot of folks who will contribute to experimental physics and engineering in many fields. However, I think the main point is that I'd rather quarrel with money spent on junk (like farm subsidies) than money spent on an attempt to defend myself and everyone from accidental or intentional nuclear attack. -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be nderstand is one major aspect. Also, you will get to benefit from protection from 3rd world or accidental 1st world attacks even if the system isn't perfect. All I'm asking is that :W e?nPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 7someone else's. -------------------------------- sics and engineering research, since I doubt that SDI money is significantly reducing the funding to physics. That funding is competing with funding to farmers and other porkbarrel a lot more than it is competing with physics. Also, SDI does result in a lot of money being spent in physics and engineering. It is a shame that much of the work must be classified, but it does result in improvements in technology for research (if not basic research itself), and in training a lot of folks who will contribute to experimental physics and engineering in many fields. However, I think the main point is that I'd rather quarrel with money spent on junk (like farm subsidies) than money spent on an attempt to defend myself and everyone from accidental or intentional nuclear attack. -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be nderstand is one major aspect. Also, you will get to benefit from protection from 3rd world or accidental 1st world attacks even if the system isn't perfect. All I'm asking is that :W f_WPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Sep 88 12:23:36 GMT From: valley!stan@Rand.ORG (Stanley L. Kameny) Article-I.D.: <39.UUL1.2#239@valley.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1991@iscuva.ISCS.COM> Yes, Jim, you have missed something very important in the action of a lightning rod. You overlooked the corona discharge which lets most of the charge buildup leak away before the destructive lightning strike occurs to produce a discharge carrying a very high current! Corona discharge from a sharp point becomes quite strong at a fairly low voltage, like 1000 volts, and the energy in a capacitative discharge goes as the square of the voltage. I hope that this helps. Stan Kameny valley!stan@rand.org {sm.unisys.com!}randvax!valley!stan @%t`f_WPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff 14314 Hatteras Street, Van Nuys, CA 91401 (818)-994-7767 Prends-moi tel que je suis. Ricketts House motto (Caltech) Honi soit qui mal y pense. Order of the Garter motto (GB) -------------------------------- you have missed something very important in the action of a lightning rod. You overlooked the corona discharge which lets most of the charge buildup leak away before the destructive lightning strike occurs to produce a discharge carrying a very high current! Corona discharge from a sharp point becomes quite strong at a fairly low voltage, like 1000 volts, and the energy in a capacitative discharge goes as the square of the voltage. I hope that this helps. Stan Kameny valley!stan@rand.org {sm.unisys.com!}randvax!valley!stan @%t`f'PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Can life evolve on Vulcan? (foq---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Sep 88 17:47:35 EDT From: tom coradeschi >Date: 20 Sep 88 17:09:28 GMT >From: pyramid!decwrl!labrea!hanauma!rick@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Ottolini) >Article-I.D.: <23476@labrea.Stanford.EDU> > > >Spock's home planet has no moons. >Biologists speculate life came onto land after a `training period' in the >tidal flats. >Then, how could land life arise on Vulcan? >(The answer is simple and relevant to the tide discussion.) > Tides due to the sun?? As Vulcan rotates about its own axis, the DFhf'PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Can life evolve on Vulcan? (fo&gravitational forces of the sun upon the water in the oceans will act in much the same fashion as that of a moon rotating about the planet. Of course, the distance is much greater, so the magnitude of the tides would necessarily be smaller, but... tc -------------------------------- tanford.EDU> > > >Spock's home planet has no moons. >Biologists speculate life came onto land after a `training period' in the >tidal flats. >Then, how could land life arise on Vulcan? >(The answer is simple and relevant to the tide discussion.) > Tides due to the sun?? As Vulcan rotates about its own axis, the DFh/ LPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM An integral involving the erroF---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 15:35:29 GMT From: rp@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Richard Pavelle) Article-I.D.: <1108@xn.LL.MIT.EDU> It is known in the literature that integrals such as the following / 2 2 [ n - b x I x %e erf(a x + c) dx ] / can be expressed in finite terms as functions of erfs and exponentials so long as n is odd and positive and a,b,c are constants. Given the IfT/ LPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM An integral involving the errointegral for n=1 one can obtain other odd values by differentiating wrt b. I have not included the integral in this message because it is fairly complicated, but I will send it to anyone who asks. I would like to know whether anyone has encountered a closed form or approximation for even values of n. I believe it cannot be integrated in finite terms but have not seen a proof. -- Richard Pavelle -------------------------------- xpressed in finite terms as functions of erfs and exponentials so long as n is odd and positive and a,b,c are constants. Given the IfT/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Subject: Re: "What's New" 09/?---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 17:41:39 GMT From: pom@under..ARPA (Peter O. Mikes) Article-I.D.: <22771@mordor.s1.gov> In article <1257@anasaz.UUCP> you To: john@anasaz.UUCP write: >]] WN is not written to provoke discussion as >]]far as I can tell. It is written to (in the cases challenged) >]]take gratuitous slams at folks. For example, much SDI comments >]]there and throughout the debate consist of shadowboxing, with >]]both sides punching at the other sides shadow and not the real >]]issues. Attacking SDI's failure to create a perfect shield is >]]an example - it avoids the real discussion. Why can't WN or >]]some other publication ON THE NET address it in a more balanced >]]way? The way WN hits it is bound to provoke EMOTIONAL discussions, Mc /PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Subject: Re: "What's New" 09/>]]and those turn into flame wars, and on and on. As arms-d (at least temporarily) seems to be off the air, and as long as WN-faction insists and persists, in the jabs, the explicit debate may be preferable, and apparently inevitable - may be even proper (???). And so: I will attempt to summarise (I hope in a constructive way) few results of the debate on the arms-d ( but responsibility is solely mine ) to make the whole mess shorter: 1) There are no 'defensive' vs 'offensive' weapon systems; There is only defensive or agressive use of weapons - - an ethical (or legal) distiction. 2) SDI and other new weapon systems do not change reality of MAD. MAD would change if one side would significantly decrease way WN hits it is bound to provoke EMOTIONAL discussions, Mc /PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Subject: Re: "What's New" 09/ its capabilities (e.g. by unilateraly dropping of the race [ investing the money in social programs instead..]) 3) As long as underlying political problem persist, any new technology will be applied to defense/offense capability, moderated mostly by economic cost, and by level of fear. 4) Net effect of this technological creep (which will alternate between emphasis on defense and offense) are shorter reaction times. This affects the so-called Preemption Instability of MAD and (more significantly I think) the WW by accident (remote systems, automated systems) possibility. In this last sense, the time is working against us; The (relative) peace of the last 50 years does not guarantee us next 50 years. The solution of the problem is in the arena of the foreign policy, since problem is political - not technological. One not-purely political issue - which the scientific cummunity can affect- would be MORE restrain on the FDoK (= Free Difussion of Knowledge) ==> Mc /PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Subject: Re: "What's New" 09/ under present system, US is doing R&D for SU's SDI, just as it did big part of the R&D for soviet nukes... -------------------------------- tical problem persist, any new technology will be applied to defense/offense capability, moderated mostly by economic cost, and by level of fear. 4) Net effect of this technological creep (which will alternate between emphasis on defense and offense) are shorter reaction times. This affects the so-called Preemption Instability of MAD and (more significantly I think) the WW by accident (remote systems, automated systems) possibility. In this last sense, the time is working against us; The (relative) peace of the last 50 years does not guarantee us next 50 years. The solution of the problem is in the arena of the foreign policy, since problem is political - not technological. One not-purely political issue - which the scientific cummunity can affect- would be MORE restrain on the FDoK (= Free Difussion of Knowledge) ==> Mc /,c`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars ,---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 16:46:29 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Article-I.D.: <7093@aw.sei.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA> JPOULIN%BOWDOIN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU writes: >From: >>Star Wars is 30% effective... > >Perhaps this sounds silly and naive, but peace is 100% effective. Try this as an analogy: A: Air bags are 30% effective B: Not having a crash is 100% effective U}/,c`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars  The problem isn't perhaps one of physics, but of perceived risk and risk avoidance. One cannot reslly decide never to be in a car crash, and similarly a government cannot really decide never to be at war. (Even accepting the aggressor's ultimatum doesn't always work, as was discovered by Spain in 1898 and Serbia in 1914). The issue for this newsgroup, I guess, is what part of the answer, if any, is technological, and what part is political. My view, for what it's worth, is that technology has done rather more for our security than politics. Whether that applies to this extreme case is another matter. -------------------------------- U}/ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM tidal forces ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 16:12:53 GMT From: lew@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Article-I.D.: <9535@ihlpa.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <52155GRV101@PSUVM> In article <52155GRV101@PSUVM>, GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET writes: > Has anyone read the book THE INTEGRAL TREES by Larry Niven? My question is, why > do the integral trees exert an artificial gravity while other large objects su > ch as islands do not. As I understand it, the gravity is caused by tidal forces > from the neutron star. Could someone please explain the details? The tree just provides a rigid structure within the gravitational field \~`/ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM tidal forces of Voy, the neutron star. I think the trees are much longer than the clumps and such measure across - the comparison is legitimate, though. I just posted a technical discussion of problems with Niven's physics in THE INTEGRAL TREES to rec.arts.sf-lovers. I guess this makes a legitimate cross posting subject but I didn't cross post. Lew Mammel, Jr. -------------------------------- artificial gravity while other large objects su > ch as islands do not. As I understand it, the gravity is caused by tidal forces > from the neutron star. Could someone please explain the details? The tree just provides a rigid structure within the gravitational field \~`/@THEORYNET mcvax!enea!dkuug!daimi!matthews@UUNET.UU.NET Survey of Bin Packing Algorith>Can anyone please provide me with a small, recent list of references >on the 2 dimensional bin packing problem and solutions? You might try Approximation Algorithms for Bin-Packing -- An Updated Survey by E.G. Coffman, M.R. Garey, D.S. Johnson (I believe this has not yet been published, but you can get a copy by sending E-mail to D.S. Johnson (dsj@btl.csnet)) This covers more than you want, but it does survey 2-D problems and algorithms. O^/!THEORYNET langston%cs1.wsu.edu@RELAY.CS.NET SIGACT News TheoryNet subscribers and SIGACT members obviously share a lot of common interests. Nevertheless, I see many interesting items posted to TheoryNet that are not submitted for publication in SIGACT News. Examples include conference announcements, conference programs, open problems, and so on. If you have an item of interest to the theory community (as broadly defined), I'd like to remind you that SIGACT News is available and reaches an audience of well over 2000 members. Feel free to contact me if you have questions about the News. Mike Langston SIGACT News Editor email: langston@cs1.wsu.edu snail mail: Computer Science Dept, Washington State Univ, Pullman, WA 99164-1210 phone: (509) 335-6486 ɠ/,J THEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU e======================================================================== Received: from cs1.wsu.edu by IBM.COM on 09/19/88 at 23:25:14 PDT Received: from relay2.cs.net by RELAY.CS.NET id aa11733; 20 Sep 88 2:25 EDT Received: from wsu.edu by RELAY.CS.NET id aj17380; 20 Sep 88 2:11 EDT Return-Path: Received: by cs1.wsu.edu (4.12/) id AA02196; Mon, 19 Sep 88 10:38:19 pdt Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 10:38:19 pdt From: Mike Langston Full-Name: Mike Langston To: TheoryNet@IBM.COM Subject: SIGACT News TheoryNet subscribers and SIGACT members obviously share a lot of common interests. Nevertheless, I see many interesting items posted to TheoryNet that are not submitted for publication in SIGACT News. Examples include conference announcements, conference programs, open problems, and so on. /,J THEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU  If you have an item of interest to the theory community (as broadly defined), I'd like to remind you that SIGACT News is available and reaches an audience of well over 2000 members. Feel free to contact me if you have questions about the News. Mike Langston SIGACT News Editor email: langston@cs1.wsu.edu snail mail: Computer Science Dept, Washington State Univ, Pullman, WA 99164-1210 phone: (509) 335-6486 88 10:38:19 pdt From: Mike Langston Full-Name: Mike Langston To: TheoryNet@IBM.COM Subject: SIGACT News TheoryNet subscribers and SIGACT members obviously share a lot of common interests. Nevertheless, I see many interesting items posted to TheoryNet that are not submitted for publication in SIGACT News. Examples include conference announcements, conference programs, open problems, and so on. /0@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 21:07:18 GMT From: fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) Article-I.D.: <69658@sun.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA>, JPOULIN%BOWDOIN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU writes: > From: > > >Star Wars is 30% effective... > > Perhaps this sounds silly and naive, but peace is 100% effective. Doesn't > is make more sense to spend the trillion dollars in huge programs to avoid] > nuclear war than to deal with it? How better to deal with nuclear war than to avoid it? Ѝm@/0@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars $ -------------------------------- ---------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 21:07:18 GMT From: fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) Article-I.D.: <69658@sun.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA>, JPOULIN%BOWDOIN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU writes: > From: > > >Star Wars is 30% effective... > > Perhaps this sounds silly and naive, but peace is 100% effective. Doesn't > is make more sense to spend the trillion dollars in huge programs to avoid] > nuclear war than to deal with it? How better to deal with nuclear war than to avoid it? Ѝm@/4`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 20:24:15 GMT From: rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) Article-I.D.: <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> In article <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> gsh7w@astsun1.acc.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) writes: > >Why spend a trillion dollars or so >on something that ain't gonna work? > As a person who makes a living developing firmware to control hardware, it is my informed opinion that SDI will be difficult to implement as advertized, and certainly not on the advertized schedule. F /4`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... !But, I can think of two reasons right off the bat to go ahead and try. 1) A whole bunch of that "trillion dollars" goes into the pockets of the R&D people and support people as salaries. The government found an excuse to fund hundreds of thousands of jobs for us, many being high level R&D work. Anyone in a position where a good job would be useful shouldn't complain. What better way to serve the homeless than to create massive quantities of new jobs. It's the Republican version of welfare. (Before anyone says "The homeless can't do SDI research!", think about all those hamburgers that will have to be flipped for the researchers.) 2) WWII was almost worth fighting just for the technological advances that came of it. For example: WWII led directly to computers and and space exploration, and we all know what each of those then led to. SDI research will certainly do just as much for us. Rail gun research is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written F /4`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... | up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed that the relativity theorists were wrong in at least this case.) We can't afford to not go ahead and try, even if we know it will never be implemented. If everyone was of the "It won't work so we shouldn't try" opinion then we would still be communicating with sticks and hollow logs. -- Rick Wilson rick@tekfdi.TEK.COM ..{ucbvax,uw-beaver}!tektronix!tekfdi!rick -------------------------------- Date: Fri 23 Sep 88 09:15:13-PDT will have to be flipped for the researchers.) 2) WWII was almost worth fighting just for the technological advances that came of it. For example: WWII led directly to computers and and space exploration, and we all know what each of those then led to. SDI research will certainly do just as much for us. Rail gun research is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written F /4`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... From: Mike Dante In-Reply-To: <8809230200.AA17195@unix.SRI.COM> Several people have expressed an attitude toward SDI exemplified by: >if we assume that our top officials are seriously contemplating nuclear war, >it gets a lot more tempting if someone says, "Hey, I'm going to put up an >SDI system tomorrow. There is not the slightest evidence that *anyone* who is or who is likely to become one of our top officials has any desire at all to start any war at all, much less a nuclear war. The national debate is over the best means to avoid war. The "doves" believe that the "hawks" will make war more likely because the other side will feel threatened by strength, while the "hawks" believe that the "doves" will make war more likely because the other side will be tempted by weakness. The nineteenth century was the last time anyone with a chance of holding a position of power in the U.S. seriously contemplated war gun research is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written F /4`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... as other than a last resort. If anything, the presence of a US SDI would reduce the chance that any US leader would consider war necessary. On the other hand, ever since the USSR and Nazi Germany signed a treaty to divide Eastern Europe, the USSR has considered war a logical means of extending its power. From Greece, through Korea, to Afghanistan, the USSR has not hesitated to launch aggressive military adventures. At this point the evident failure of Communism as an ideology and as an economic system offers hope of change in the Socialist Block. The Soviets have had an ongoing SDI program for at least twenty years. Surely now is not the time to abandon the field to the Russians. Unilateral possession of even the hope of effective defence might indeed be enough to embolden the Kremlin hardliners to reverse their failures through war. No such danger would accompany US deployment of a defense. ------- -------------------------------- research is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written F +-`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 15:52:18 GMT From: att!chinet!mcdchg!nud!anasaz!john@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (John Moore) Article-I.D.: <1262@anasaz.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1464@edsel> <1987@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In article <1987@iscuva.ISCS.COM] jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) writes: ]In article <1464@edsel> kdo@lucid.com writes: ]>As long as people are thinking about lightning, can someone explain ]>how lightning rods work? Everything I know about it would make me ]>think that the effect of a lightning rod would be to get hit by ]>lightning, ] ]In the words of the immortal Benjamin Franklin: ] ]"A house thus furnished (with lightning rods) will not be damaged by 'c+-`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff W]lightning, it being attracted by the points, and passing through the ]metal without hurting anything." ] ]The way it happens is that as the negatively charged thundercell ]passes over the ground, the huge electrostatic potential causes positive ]ions to leap upwards from things like trees, the corners of houses, church ]steeples or any sharp or pointy object on the ground. This is what facilitates ]the `return stroke' after the stepped leader makes contact with it (see ]previous article for `stepped leader' & `return stroke'). ] ]The way a lightning rod works is to provide the highest point(s) for the ]positive ions to jump from, thereby making the rod a very attractive place ]for the stepped leader to land. ] ]>but I'm told they actually work by preventing lightning ]>strikes in the protected area. How does this happen? ] 'c+-`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ]Yes and no...........(if I understand your question). The rods don't prevent ]the lightning itself, they just give it an easy place to go, thereby ]"preventing lightning strikes in the protected area." Just don't put a ]rod IN the protected area........place them AROUND the area to be protected ](assumming that the area isn't too large). On the other hand, I have read that recent research shows that the lightning rod "cone of protection" concept isn't valid - the lightning doesn't know the rules! I also just returned to the library a book on lightning with a picture of a lightning bolt extending vertically down from a cloud to about 6 feet below the top of a lightning rod, and then horizontally about 3 feet over to the rod! If that was on your roof, the lightning would have gone into the attic and then over to the rod. Sigh. -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... 'c+-`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff |The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be someone else's. -------------------------------- asy place to go, thereby ]"preventing lightning strikes in the protected area." Just don't put a ]rod IN the protected area........place them AROUND the area to be protected ](assumming that the area isn't too large). On the other hand, I have read that recent research shows that the lightning rod "cone of protection" concept isn't valid - the lightning doesn't know the rules! I also just returned to the library a book on lightning with a picture of a lightning bolt extending vertically down from a cloud to about 6 feet below the top of a lightning rod, and then horizontally about 3 feet over to the rod! If that was on your roof, the lightning would have gone into the attic and then over to the rod. Sigh. -- John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john (602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!... 'c-o`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 13:33:00 GMT From: wsmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> What law prevents energy from being directly converted into neutrino/anti-neutrino pairs? If it could, I think it would be hard to find much energy in the form of photons, etc. Bill Smith uiucdcs!wsmith wsmith@cs.uiuc.edu -------------------------------- q/*PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littl---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 23:03:31 GMT From: att!whuts!homxb!homxc!dwc@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Malaclypse the Elder) Article-I.D.: <3507@homxc.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3307@homxc.UUCP> <15900027@bucc2> <1058@bucket.UUCP> In article <1058@bucket.UUCP>, leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: > Consider a *long* piece of wire. The dimension along its length is the > normal 4 dimensions of space-time. the direction "around" it represents > the other 7 dimensions. It's the same dimensions at any point. For a > very thin, very long wire loop, it might be less than a millimeter > around the wire in the small direction, but miles in the long direction. > -- this seems like a nice picture. but with respect to my original question, can there be a "force" that is transmitted "around" the wire with effects that can be visible along "the length" of the wire and could that not seem to us to violate speed of light restrictions? L /*PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM question about all those littlC danny chen att!homxc!dwc -------------------------------- ate: 22 Sep 88 23:03:31 GMT From: att!whuts!homxb!homxc!dwc@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Malaclypse the Elder) Article-I.D.: <3507@homxc.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3307@homxc.UUCP> <15900027@bucc2> <1058@bucket.UUCP> In article <1058@bucket.UUCP>, leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: > Consider a *long* piece of wire. The dimension along its length is the > normal 4 dimensions of space-time. the direction "around" it represents > the other 7 dimensions. It's the same dimensions at any point. For a > very thin, very long wire loop, it might be less than a millimeter > around the wire in the small direction, but miles in the long direction. > -- this seems like a nice picture. but with respect to my original question, can there be a "force" that is transmitted "around" the wire with effects that can be visible along "the length" of the wire and could that not seem to us to violate speed of light restrictions? L 1_CPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 15:21:41 GMT From: dmocsny@uceng.UC.EDU (daniel mocsny) Article-I.D.: <261@uceng.UC.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In article <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: > the > Soviets strongly believe that their civil defense plans can greatly > reduce the cost of a nuclear war. This is true! The Soviet civil defense > is amazing, they can protect come of the population which the US can not > do at all. With only a small fraction of our warheads we could take out enough of their power plants, dams, factories, etc., while fouling enough of their [1_CPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... \farmland that they would have some pretty tough going. Even if their civil defense saved some of their population, they would need some time to look like an industrial nation again. Indeed, the damage of a nuclear ``exchange'' could readily lead to the total disintegration of social order among the survivors. Given all we hear about the disgruntled ethnic groups in the ``Evil Empire'' could the Bolshies really keep the music playing if we unloaded a few SLBMs on them? One question I have: if we are all so certain that ``Star Wars'' is technically infeasible and ruinously expensive, then why are the Soviets so dead set on stopping us from trying to develop it? Perhaps they have our best interests at heart? They don't want to see us slip too much farther in the international standard-of-living game, yeah, that's it :-) Dan Mocsny [1_CPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... p.s. Warfare in the year 2020 AD won't be this sloppy, messy, bloody affair we muck about with today. Instead the combatants will each drive a jeep to the border, paying out a cable on the way. When they meet, a United Nations team of networking specialists will build a custom interface box to bridge the combatants' incompatible network protocols. As soon as the link comes up, the two sides will each try to defeat the security of the other side's computers. The winner can then do anything he can get away with -- transfer funds out of the enemy nation's central bank, shut down power grids at 2:00 PM on Friday, order 40,000 pizzas for delivery to the White House, broadcast insulting messages to every VDT in the enemy country, insert random font changes in the front page of the Wall Street Journal (TM), whatever. -------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 05:04:44 GMT [1_CPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) Article-I.D.: <8058@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> In article <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) writes: < Why we need SDI research: Republican welfare for technologists -- trickle > < down to the masses. Science and tech development > > SDI research will certainly do just as much for us. Rail gun research > is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written > up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find > the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed > that the relativity theorists were wrong in at least this case.) SAY WHAT? Wall Street Journal (TM), whatever. -------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 05:04:44 GMT [1_CPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... #If this is so, then someone is going to get a Nobel in a month or two for it. Why wasn't I informed? Why are scientific journals trying to cover this up? Was the technology to discover this unearthed in an ancient Mayan spacecraft? Enquiring minds want to know. Seriously, what is this? If relativity is wrong, I want to get to work on an FTL drive. David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Flowers -- Just say NO!!" - Mighty Mouse -------------------------------- (It was written > up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find > the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed > that the relativity theorists were wrong in at least this case.) SAY WHAT? Wall Street Journal (TM), whatever. -------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 05:04:44 GMT [j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airk---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 15:36:30 GMT From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) Article-I.D.: <8059@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> In article <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> wsmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >What law prevents energy from being directly converted into >neutrino/anti-neutrino pairs? > >If it could, I think it would be hard to find much energy in the form >of photons, etc. > >Bill Smith uiucdcs!wsmith wsmith@cs.uiuc.edu Conservation of momentum for one thing. A photon has linear momentum ~*j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airp with a magnitude proportional to its energy. Two neutrinos putatively produced by the photon would each have to have momentum of magnitude p/2 (by energy conservation), and the vector sum of their momenta would have to equal the original momentum p. This would require that the two neutrinos would have to be going in exactly the same direction. The probability of a reaction occuring is proportional to (among other things) the total accessible phase space available to the end-products--How many different possible sets of momenta the final photons could have. In this case, only a single point in 6-dimensional phase space is possible, and that is a very small fraction of the phase-volume available. Another reason is that the probability of the reaction also goes up with the likelihood of interaction between the initial and final states. Since neutrinos do not react with photons (neutrinos hardly interact with anything) this also prevents the decay of photons into neutrinos. ~*j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Flowers -- Just say NO!!" - Mighty Mouse -------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 18:55:51 GMT From: zody@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU Article-I.D.: <16939@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> What prevents energy from being converted to neutrino-antineutrino pairs? Energy _can_ be converted to nu-nu bar pairs. Neutrinos, though, only interact weakly. This means that as far as the strong and electromagnetic interactions are concerned, the neutrino is nuetral. The only way to make a nu-nu bar then d that is a very small fraction of the phase-volume available. Another reason is that the probability of the reaction also goes up with the likelihood of interaction between the initial and final states. Since neutrinos do not react with photons (neutrinos hardly interact with anything) this also prevents the decay of photons into neutrinos. ~*j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airis to first produce a virtual Z0. Since the Z0 is very massive (~100 GeV), the probability amplitude for making a virtual one is very low at low energy. In addition, a real photon can not convert directly to nuetrinos through _any_ process by angular momentum conservation. Energy momentum conservation tells you that the members of the neutrino pair would have to both be travelling in the direction of the photon. But, neutrinos are all left handed and anti- neutrinos are all right handed. Thus the "z" component of the helicity of the pair is zero. The photon, being massless, has no zero helicity state, and so the interaction can't happen. (If neutrinos have a small mass then there could be some probability of this process. At the very largest, though, this would go like (mass of neutrino/mass of Z)^2 compared to other interactions which is a very tiny rate...) There is still plenty of energy converted to neutrinos every day (in the sun, for instance) so there are zillions of neutrinos filling all space. However, they are all produced by weak interactions. Charley Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu ~*j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air -------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 88 03:16:38 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14661@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> Other people have responded on most of the points. In article <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, wsmith@m.cs writes: >What law prevents energy from being directly converted into >neutrino/anti-neutrino pairs? >If it could, I think it would be hard to find much energy in the form >of photons, etc. the helicity of the pair is zero. The photon, being massless, has no zero helicity state, and so the interaction can't happen. (If neutrinos have a small mass then there could be some probability of this process. At the very largest, though, this would go like (mass of neutrino/mass of Z)^2 compared to other interactions which is a very tiny rate...) There is still plenty of energy converted to neutrinos every day (in the sun, for instance) so there are zillions of neutrinos filling all space. However, they are all produced by weak interactions. Charley Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu ~*j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air No. This doesn't follow at all. Most of the energy of the universe could be in neutrinos, and you wouldn't notice. As an example, the neutrino flash from a supernova is about a 100 times (well, I don't remember exactly, but it's up there) all other energy release. Yet we just barely noticed the neutrinos from SN1987a. And it is possible for a photon to interact weakly. That's what uni- fication is all about. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 -------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 88 04:40:17 GMT From: jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) Article-I.D.: <8667@watdragon.waterloo.edu> (If neutrinos have a small mass then there could be some probability of this process. At the very largest, though, this would go like (mass of neutrino/mass of Z)^2 compared to other interactions which is a very tiny rate...) There is still plenty of energy converted to neutrinos every day (in the sun, for instance) so there are zillions of neutrinos filling all space. However, they are all produced by weak interactions. Charley Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu ~*j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airIn-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> In article <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> wsmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >What law prevents energy from being directly converted into >neutrino/anti-neutrino pairs? > >If it could, I think it would be hard to find much energy in the form >of photons, etc. > >Bill Smith uiucdcs!wsmith wsmith@cs.uiuc.edu Neutrinos have a specific rest energy, just as electrons and protons do. (If memory serves me right, there are two types of neutrinos, each with differing rest energies.) To spontaneously create a neutrino/anti-neutrino pair from would require a photon with exactly twice the rest energy of a neutrino. Neutrinos are leptons and are thus in the same family of this process. At the very largest, though, this would go like (mass of neutrino/mass of Z)^2 compared to other interactions which is a very tiny rate...) There is still plenty of energy converted to neutrinos every day (in the sun, for instance) so there are zillions of neutrinos filling all space. However, they are all produced by weak interactions. Charley Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu ~*j@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airparticles as the electron and the muon. Photons can take any energy value they want (within the restrictions of quantum mechanics). There are certain particle decays (and interactions?) which produce neutrinos, but I'd have to look them up. You might want to check a good introductory text to modern physics or quantum mechanics to check if there are any conservation laws that might prevent such neutrino creation. -------------------------------- there are two types of neutrinos, each with differing rest energies.) To spontaneously create a neutrino/anti-neutrino pair from would require a photon with exactly twice the rest energy of a neutrino. Neutrinos are leptons and are thus in the same family of this process. At the very largest, though, this would go like (mass of neutrino/mass of Z)^2 compared to other interactions which is a very tiny rate...) There is still plenty of energy converted to neutrinos every day (in the sun, for instance) so there are zillions of neutrinos filling all space. However, they are all produced by weak interactions. Charley Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu ~*nwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... %---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 17:28:00 GMT From: william@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk Article-I.D.: <44400039@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> >However, I'm puzzled... There is such a lopsided view of the "Star Wars" >system!! In view of the fact that the Union of Concerned Scientist's >..... >I can understand the viewpoints of expense, but even a 30% effective >shield would be better than nothing, I believe. In case the US (or the >USSR) is not adequately protected, it may be that the 30% that was stopped >would have made our planet's lithosphere uninhabitable... That alone >would make it worthwhile... What do you guys think? I think you are clinging on to the dogma that was put aboutseveral years unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ago by a small group of people ... let me tell you the story: In Britain here, we have a major problem with Science, and that is that nobody wants to pay us to do any of it. But lots of people seem very happy to pay vast quantities for defense systems, so it occurred to some people that it would be a cool and hoopy idea to take the richest economy in the world, wait for a suitably gullible president to come along, and then spread rumours that would result in a big expensive operation to build a space defense system. And it worked! Plans and recommendations were subtly given to many reputable scientists in the US, and, seeing that they would receive most of the contracts, they put forward the idea to the government. Unfortunately, there were many scientists who did not see this plan for what it was, and they objected to the arguments for SDI, and completely failed to realise that it was all for their benefit, and that if they moved carefully they could have years of extravagent funding with no need to unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... bprovide anything that met the specifications. And now it looks as though these misguided people are winning through. The contracts are disappearing, the money is drying up, and we sink back into the Dark Ages. Once more, conference presentations will be followed by collections for the research fund, busy scientists will waste their time busking at bus stations (wife and particle accelerator to support), and the UK scientific community will return to the gutter. Well, *I*'m convinced ... ... Bill ************************************************************************ Bill Witts, CS Dept. * Nel Mezzo del cammin di nostra vita UCL, London, Errrp * mi ritrovai per una selva oscura william@cs.ucl.ac.uk * che la diritta via era smarrita. ************************************************************************ for SDI, and completely failed to realise that it was all for their benefit, and that if they moved carefully they could have years of extravagent funding with no need to unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ; -------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 16:16:18 GMT From: dld@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (David Detlefs) Article-I.D.: <3085@pt.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> I think the attitudes expressed by Rick Wilson in his recent article under this subject heading are 1) a little elitist: he refers to "SDI" as "Republican welfare", and implies that he approves, at least somewhat, of redistributing wealth to the lower economic classes by having it trickle down to them via ************************ Bill Witts, CS Dept. * Nel Mezzo del cammin di nostra vita UCL, London, Errrp * mi ritrovai per una selva oscura william@cs.ucl.ac.uk * che la diritta via era smarrita. ************************************************************************ for SDI, and completely failed to realise that it was all for their benefit, and that if they moved carefully they could have years of extravagent funding with no need to unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Kwages paid for "flipping burgers" for the technocrats made well-off by the SDI. I don't know, maybe this is the best way of doing things -- I admit that at least *something* gets done for the money. However, as a mechanism for wealth redistribution, I'm sure it's not very efficient. My basic egalitarian nature rebels somewhat at this. Also, the implication that one should make up one's mind on something like SDI on the basis of what effect it will have on one's personal finances is an example of the exactly the attitude that can most quickly cause (is most quickly causing?) democracy to fail: I believe this is known as the "tyranny of the majority." Of course, if Mr. Wilson's attitude here is sincerely based on the belief that the overall social good of the SDI program will outweigh it's cost, I apologize; his phrasing didn't give me that impression, though. 2) a little insensitive: I hope that "WWII was almost worth fighting just for the technological advances that came of it." was not meant nearly as seriously as it sounded. I didn't even have any relatives unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... killed, and I'm somewhat offended. 3) (and this is the main point) -- perhaps a little behind the times: maybe in the 50's, 60's, and 70's the US could afford to "prime the technological pump" via military programs, but I think world economic competition is forcing us to recognize that this is not a very efficient mechanism for introducing innovation into the economy. Obviously, there have been great numbers of very useful spin-offs from military technology, but the fact must remain that most of the problems solved in such research never have any analogs in non-military applications. Can we really afford to compete economically against Japan, other Pacific Rim nations, and Western Europe with such a large percentage of our GNP taken out of the economy and applied to ends that probably won't have any commercial relevance? Perhaps more importantly, can we afford to have a large fraction of our best scientific and technical talent channeled into non-commercial specialties? This issue is obviously open to debate on as it sounded. I didn't even have any relatives unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Pmany points (am I right about the economic non-value of Star Wars? Is the "brain drain" really significant?), but I, for one, think that corporations are getting big enough that they will be able to (and will have to, to survive) take a longer term view of basic research funding. The research thus funded will of course be that which is expected to have economic applications someday, but I don't see this as necessarily bad. P.S. I hope my remarks about Mr. Wilson's post are not interpreted as a *flame*. I did not mean to insult him, merely to disagree with him on some points. -- Dave Detlefs Any correlation between my employer's opinion Carnegie-Mellon CS and my own is statistical rather than causal, dld@cs.cmu.edu except in those cases where I have helped to form my employer's opinion. (Null disclaimer.) Perhaps more importantly, can we afford to have a large fraction of our best scientific and technical talent channeled into non-commercial specialties? This issue is obviously open to debate on as it sounded. I didn't even have any relatives unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  -------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 21:50:58 GMT From: pom@under..ARPA (Peter O. Mikes) Article-I.D.: <22781@mordor.s1.gov> In article <3085@pt.cs.cmu.edu> you = dld@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu write: >I think the attitudes expressed by Rick Wilson in his recent article >under this subject heading are > >1) a little elitist: he refers to "SDI" as "Republican welfare", and >implies that he approves, pom: motto: Better to be paranoid then sorry (Dr. Frish) e not interpreted as a *flame*. I did not mean to insult him, merely to disagree with him on some points. -- Dave Detlefs Any correlation between my employer's opinion Carnegie-Mellon CS and my own is statistical rather than causal, dld@cs.cmu.edu except in those cases where I have helped to form my employer's opinion. (Null disclaimer.) Perhaps more importantly, can we afford to have a large fraction of our best scientific and technical talent channeled into non-commercial specialties? This issue is obviously open to debate on as it sounded. I didn't even have any relatives unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  Rick Wilson's contribution is a cheap ploy, by which he managed to make you to argue his case for him. The thesis that US is in the arms race for it's internal (economical..) reasons is a popular thesis of the lunatic fringe of the left wing. Some believe it, some use as a finger-pointing device, putting the blame squarely on the US. Few realize that origins of this absurdity are in the old marxist theory according to which the imperialist states, such as US, can only avoid severe economical depressions by initiating wars... It would not be quite as apparent from his 1), but in his 2) >2) a little insensitive: I hope that "WWII was almost worth fighting he overdid it, and gave his ploy away, by putting forward an absurd discredited and morally repulsive argument, that "wars are good for science.. pom:The arms race exists since superpowers are willing and able to use force our best scientific and technical talent channeled into non-commercial specialties? This issue is obviously open to debate on as it sounded. I didn't even have any relatives unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  - without regard to (possibly non-existing) law - to achieve their goals. In the absence of any law enforcement - the only response to the threat of force is the same - namely the threat of using the force.. > Can we really afford to compete >economically against Japan, other Pacific Rim nations, and Western >Europe with such a large percentage of our GNP taken out of the While there was a reduction in the Cold War tension lately, the nuclear missiles are still aimied at the US - and that, unfotunately, still makes the avoidance of WWIII more urgent goal then the economical competition with our fiendly non-militaristic ally - Japan and co. If you want to argue - argue with the real reasons, not strawmen. discredited and morally repulsive argument, that "wars are good for science.. pom:The arms race exists since superpowers are willing and able to use force our best scientific and technical talent channeled into non-commercial specialties? This issue is obviously open to debate on as it sounded. I didn't even have any relatives unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  To: dld@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Musings on what I see here... Newsgroups: sci.physics In-Reply-To: <3085@pt.cs.cmu.edu> References: <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> Organization: S-1 Project, LLNL Cc: Bcc: -------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 88 01:42:26 GMT From: uw-beaver!tektronix!percival!bucket!leonard@Cornell.ARPA (Leonard Erickson) Article-I.D.: <1062@bucket.UUCP> ately, the nuclear missiles are still aimied at the US - and that, unfotunately, still makes the avoidance of WWIII more urgent goal then the economical competition with our fiendly non-militaristic ally - Japan and co. If you want to argue - argue with the real reasons, not strawmen. discredited and morally repulsive argument, that "wars are good for science.. pom:The arms race exists since superpowers are willing and able to use force our best scientific and technical talent channeled into non-commercial specialties? This issue is obviously open to debate on as it sounded. I didn't even have any relatives unwPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> In article <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> gsh7w@astsun1.acc.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) writes: In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> >>Actually [lightning rods] do prevent lightning by sucking (or spraying, >>depending on your definition) charge from the air the way a bleeder valve >>can prevent a boiler explosion. >> >>This is why they are sharpened. >> >>--JoSH > >Actually, the reason why they are sharpened is to provide the highest >concentration of positive ions, i.e. #ions/cubic unit, in an attempt ]RxPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff .>to `lure' the lightning to it, rather than some other place within the >>protected area. It's true that positive ions `spray' from the point. >This is due to their high concentration and the hugh electrostatic field >generated by the thundercell above. This, however, serves to ATTRACT >the lightning because a strong positive streamer is able to leap upward >to meet the stepped leader coming out of the cloud. Remember B. Franklin's >words, "[lightning] being *attracted* to the points [of the lightning rod], >and passing through the metal without hurting anything". > >This is why they are sharpened. I'm afraid not. The bleeder valve analogy is good. The primary purpose of a lightning conductor is to PREVENT lightning strikes, and it does this by projecting a *very* tall electric field into the cloud. Now the reason why you get a strike because the discharge is prevented by air resistance (electrical!!) until it reaches breakdown potential. But when the charged zone of the cloud passes over the projected field, the charges can slide ]RxPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff easily down to and into the rod (an ammeter will register a fairly large current flow passing constantly through the earthline). As a result, the part of the cloud above the conductor doesn't reach breakdown potential and the explosive discharge is prevented. Suppose the particular bit of cloud above a conductor discharges 25000 Amps for 0.5 secs every 100 seconds, then the conductor will pass about 125 Amps. And I think this would represent a very high strike frequency - the 100 sec figure is probably far too low an interval. If the discharge does occur, then of course it goes through the rod, and this is a nice backup protection. If you think about it, IF it were true that the sole purpose of the conductor is to conduct strikes, then there would be no need for the pointed rod. The best shape would be a hemisphere, dome upwards, to minimise the attractiveness of the building, and to conduct the current if a strike occurred. ential. But when the charged zone of the cloud passes over the projected field, the charges can slide ]RxPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff  ... Bill ************************************************************************ Bill Witts, CS Dept. * Nel Mezzo del cammin di nostra vita UCL, London, Errrp * mi ritrovai per una selva oscura william@cs.ucl.ac.uk * che la diritta via era smarrita. ************************************************************************ -------------------------------- will pass about 125 Amps. And I think this would represent a very high strike frequency - the 100 sec figure is probably far too low an interval. If the discharge does occur, then of course it goes through the rod, and this is a nice backup protection. If you think about it, IF it were true that the sole purpose of the conductor is to conduct strikes, then there would be no need for the pointed rod. The best shape would be a hemisphere, dome upwards, to minimise the attractiveness of the building, and to conduct the current if a strike occurred. ential. But when the charged zone of the cloud passes over the projected field, the charges can slide ]R{PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 16:15:00 GMT From: william@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk Article-I.D.: <44400037@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> I guess you can think of the situation in the form of a sandwich of water, Earth, water, which is being stretched out by the acceleration due to the uneven effect of the moon's gravity. ... Bill ************************************************************************ Bill Witts, CS Dept. * Nel Mezzo del cammin di nostra vita UCL, London, Errrp * mi ritrovai per una selva oscura william@cs.ucl.ac.uk * che la diritta via era smarrita. {PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES ************************************************************************ -------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 21:19:53 GMT From: norm@ochoa.bcm.tmc.edu (Norman Furlong) Article-I.D.: <1285@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1129@sri-arpa.ARPA> <582@attdso.ATT.COM> This is from my (smarter) brother who lives in New York: Here's another attempt to visualize the effect of the moon (or the sun for that matter) on the oceans of the earth--think of the earth as being slightly elastic, like a very large tennis ball, and think of squeezing it at diametrically opposite points--it gets deformed, flattened somewhat, made more oblate with TWO nodes--this is perhaps a better way to think of the moon's gravitational tidal effect on the earth with the  {PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES fdiametrically opposite points being those on either side equidistant from the moon's center and NOT the nearest and farthest points on the earth from the moon (really the pinching is around the whole great circle on the earth going through the poles as well). What causes this pinching action you ask? The INHOMOGENEITY of the moon's gravitational field as experienced by opposite ends of the earth--the attraction is always pointed toward the CENTER of the moon and obviously this means that the gravitational force vectors from diametrically opposite points on the earth will not be parallel(!) and thus there will always be a nonzero component of the force pointing down towards the center of the earth as well(!) effectively "pinching" the relatively incompressible ocean waters leading to the bulging at TWO nodes just like with the tennis ball--the high tide on the side facing the moon will probably always be a little higher but at least it should now be more reasonable to expect to find a high tide on the side opposite the moon as well! Norman B. Furlong, norm@bcm.tmc.edu Office of VPIT  {PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM TWO TIDES ` Baylor College of Medicine Houston, Texas 77030 -------------------------------- NOT the nearest and farthest points on the earth from the moon (really the pinching is around the whole great circle on the earth going through the poles as well). What causes this pinching action you ask? The INHOMOGENEITY of the moon's gravitational field as experienced by opposite ends of the earth--the attraction is always pointed toward the CENTER of the moon and obviously this means that the gravitational force vectors from diametrically opposite points on the earth will not be parallel(!) and thus there will always be a nonzero component of the force pointing down towards the center of the earth as well(!) effectively "pinching" the relatively incompressible ocean waters leading to the bulging at TWO nodes just like with the tennis ball--the high tide on the side facing the moon will probably always be a little higher but at least it should now be more reasonable to expect to find a high tide on the side opposite the moon as well! Norman B. Furlong, norm@bcm.tmc.edu Office of VPIT  ~r PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Chaos, some pointers wanted 1---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 11:01:12 GMT From: gareth@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Gareth Husk) Article-I.D.: <576@dcl-csvax.comp.lancs.ac.uk> Greetings one and all, Last night the BBC carried a rather interesting article on chaos theory complete with some very nice computer graphics. Are there any good, simple, articles books etc on the subject? Simulation software for Suns or Macs would be greatly appreciated. Please e-mail any responses and I will summarise to the net. Gareth Husk `~r PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Chaos, some pointers wanted -- " Nine weeks and counting..." UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp -------------------------------- <576@dcl-csvax.comp.lancs.ac.uk> Greetings one and all, Last night the BBC carried a rather interesting article on chaos theory complete with some very nice computer graphics. Are there any good, simple, articles books etc on the subject? Simulation software for Suns or Macs would be greatly appreciated. Please e-mail any responses and I will summarise to the net. Gareth Husk `n@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Can life evolve on Vulcan? (fot---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 12:08:34 GMT From: nrl-cmf!mailrus!husc6!bbn!aoa!carl@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Carl Witthoft) Article-I.D.: <435@aoa.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <23476@labrea.Stanford.EDU> In article <23476@labrea.Stanford.EDU> rick@hanauma (Richard Ottolini) writes: > >Spock's home planet has no moons. >Biologists speculate life came onto land after a `training period' in the >tidal flats. >Then, how could land life arise on Vulcan? >(The answer is simple and relevant to the tide discussion.) Tides due to his sun. Fascinating, captain. -- $n@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Can life evolve on Vulcan? (foI Alix' Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) " Axis-navigo, ergo sum." {ll-xn,spdcc,...}!bbn!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201 And a cryptic anagram: Legal case of theft of a marble from Carl Witthoft. (Praise but no prize if you solve it.) -------------------------------- rites: > >Spock's home planet has no moons. >Biologists speculate life came onto land after a `training period' in the >tidal flats. >Then, how could land life arise on Vulcan? >(The answer is simple and relevant to the tide discussion.) Tides due to his sun. Fascinating, captain. -- $x@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain 0---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 22:11:00 GMT From: husc6!bbn!inmet!ishmael!inmet!authorplaceholder@unix.SRI.COM Article-I.D.: <121300010@inmet> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> PUSCHGD@VTCC1.BITNET (Gordon D. Pusch) writes: >I am convinced that the principle culprit in Acidification is the >*Automobile catalytic converter*. >... Because they >operate at much higher temperatures, cars with catalytic converters put >out literally *an order of magnitude* more NOX than an unequiped engine. >... >When the EPA originally set the pollution standards, and approved >catalyic converters as a means for achieving them, they were primarilly >concerned about Carbon Monoxide and UnBurned Hydrocabon emissions. SRx@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain  I don't know the chemistry but this does not agree with my memory of the reasons for using catalytic converters. I recall reading that the main parameter associated with NOX emissions was the engine compression ratio, i.e. pressure rather than temperature. They probably both matter. I also recall that the EPA made efforts to limit compression ratios for this reason at a time when high compression meant high performance. I further recall that diesel engines have necessarily higher compression ratios (the mixture is compressed until it ignites) and thus produce much more NOX than spark ignited gasoline engines. I believe that higher compression ratios generally reduce CO and hydrocarbon emissions in gasoline engines and improve efficiency and thus would seem desirable except for increased NOX production. The advantage of the catalytic converter may have been that it allowed the compression ratio to be reduced while still keeping CO and hydrocarbon emissions SRx@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain zdown. Engine efficiency was certainly also a concern although I'm not sure how it fits in. I don't believe that the laws mandate that catalytic converters be used in cars, only that certain emission levels not be exceeded. Some manufacturers, for example Honda with its CVCC system, managed to meet the limits without converters. I have often suspected that diesel vehicles (trucks, buses, cars, etc.) contribute far more than their fair share of air pollutants. I know they aren't regulated as strictly as gasoline cars. Does anyone have information to confirm or deny my hunch? More generally, does anyone have a list of the major sources (e.g. cars, trucks, refineries, coal-burning power plants, filling stations, aircraft) of different air pollutants and how much each source contributes? A possibly related question: Why do catalytic converter equipped cars that it allowed the compression ratio to be reduced while still keeping CO and hydrocarbon emissions SRx@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain smell like hydrogen sulfide while idling after having been driven at highway speeds? Is it really hydrogen sulfide? Is there much sulfur in gasoline? How well do the converters really work under heavy loads (do they also smell that bad while they are at highway speed)? --Thomas Yelton UUCP: {bellcore,ima,ihnp4}!inmet!thy Intermetrics, Inc. INTERNET: thy@inmet.inmet.com 733 Concord Ave. Cambridge, MA 02138 PHONE: (617) 661-1840 -------------------------------- 't regulated as strictly as gasoline cars. Does anyone have information to confirm or deny my hunch? More generally, does anyone have a list of the major sources (e.g. cars, trucks, refineries, coal-burning power plants, filling stations, aircraft) of different air pollutants and how much each source contributes? A possibly related question: Why do catalytic converter equipped cars that it allowed the compression ratio to be reduced while still keeping CO and hydrocarbon emissions SR3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/23/88 i---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 88 09:06:40 GMT From: iuvax!pur-ee!pur-phy!piner@Rutgers.EDU (Richard Piner) Article-I.D.: <1463@pur-phy> Posted: Fri Sep 23, 1988 3:48 PM EDT Msg: AGII-3177-5360 From: RPARK To: WHATSNEW WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 23 September 1988 Washington, DC 1. THE NATIONAL SCIENCE BOARD IS UNDER-STRENGTH and likely to remain that way until after the inauguration. The NSB, which oversees the National Science Foundation, is composed of 24 members, appointed by the President for staggered 6-year terms.  3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/23/88 Eight terms expired in May, as they do every two years. Baker, Hosler and Schmitt were re-nominated, while Nierenberg and Rasmussen have been neither re-nominated nor replaced. Three new members were nominated: Daniel Drucker, Arden Bement and Allan Bromley. Of the six, only two, Baker and Drucker, have been confirmed by the Senate, which is traditionally reluctant to consider presidential appointments in the waning weeks of an administration. 2. ROBERT O. HUNTER, JR. WAS CONFIRMED AS DIRECTOR OF ENERGY RESEARCH at DOE, however, with only four months to go. He was first nominated to replace Al Trivelpiece in June of 1987 (WN 26 Jun 88), but the 100th Congress took no action and he was re-nominated by Reagan this May (WN 3 Jun 88). Hunter was previously president of Western Research, a San Diego defense contractor doing "black research," and served on the White House Science Council from 82 to 84. Hunter has a PhD from the   3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/23/88 University of California, Irvine. Why, you may ask, would anyone wait more than a year for a job with apparently so little future? 3. "THE NATIONAL COMMISSION ON HUMAN RESOURCES ACT," introduced by Senator Claiborne Pell (D-RI) is intended to facilitate the attainment of "full potential in body, mind and spirit," so that we might "live in harmony within a transformed family, community, nation and universe." The commission would have a "scientific advisory panel to assist the evaluation of technologies and procedures...to develop fuller human potential" and would include 2 people with experience in "extraordinary human performance research." We are not talking about the Olympics. Pell's aide, Scott Jones, a retired Army officer, spends full-time promoting research into ESP, channeling, etc. Pell himself met with Erich Bloch some time ago to urge changes in the NSF's review of psi proposals. The complaint was that such proposals were being sent to physicists for review rather than to other psi researchers. In   3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/23/88 a related effort, the Parapsychological Association, led by D. I. Radin, has recently attacked a National Academy of Sciences' study, "Enhancing Human Performance," conducted at the request of the Army Research Council (WN 3 Dec 87). Radin complains that the report issued last December would "influence people who would be interested in funding psi research." In fact, the Academy report seems to suffer from an excess of caution. After concluding that it could find "... no justification from research conducted over 130 years for the existence [of psi phenomenon]," the report goes on to recommend that the Army continue to "monitor" psi research. Something may happen yet! Robert L. Park (202) 232-0189 The American Physical Society -------------------------------- ESP, channeling, etc. Pell himself met with Erich Bloch some time ago to urge changes in the NSF's review of psi proposals. The complaint was that such proposals were being sent to physicists for review rather than to other psi researchers. In   D AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 ! AIList Digest Monday, 26 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 89 Announcements: 6th International Workshop on Machine Learning Symposium on Computational Approaches to Scientific Discovery Workshop on Evaluation of Natural Language Processing Systems Canadian AI Table of Contents, October 1988 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 88 20:20:44 GMT From: segre@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu (Alberto M. Segre) Subject: 6th International Workshop on Machine Learning ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Call for Topics: Sixth International Workshop on Machine Learning Cornell University Ithaca, New York; U.S.A. June 29 - July 1, 1989 The Sixth International Workshop on Machine Learning will be held at Cornell University, from June 29 through July 1, 1989. The workshop will be divided into four to six disjoint sessions, each focusing on a different theme. Each session will be chaired by a different member of the machine learning community, and will consist of 30 to 50 participants invited on the basis of ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  abstracts submitted to the session chair. Plenary sessions will be held for invited talks. People interested in chairing one of the sessions should submit a one-page proposal, stating the topic of the session, sites at which research is currently done on this topic, estimated attendance, format of the session, and their own qualifications as session chair. Proposals should be submitted by November 1, 1988 to the program chair: Alberto Segre Department of Computer Science Cornell University, Upson Hall Ithaca, NY 14853-7501 USA Telephone: (607) 255-9196 ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Electronic mail should be addressed to "ml89@cs.cornell.edu" or "segre@gvax.cs.cornell.edu". The organizing committee will evaluate proposals on the basis of perceived demand and their potential impact on the field. Topics will be announced by early 1989, at which time a call for papers will be issued. Partial travel support may be available for some participants. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Sep 88 01:11 PDT From: Shrager.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Symposium on Computational Approaches to Scientific Discovery Computational Approaches to Scientific Discovery Ithaca, NY 14853-7501 USA Telephone: (607) 255-9196 ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 Stanford University; January 7-8, 1989 Scientific discovery stands as a major open issue in Cognitive Science. What are the conditions for discovery and what knowledge is brought to bear? What roles are played by experimentation, observation, instrumentation, and culture in the discovery process? How are important discoveries noticed and how are they transmitted? Recently, significant progress has been made in the computational understanding of scientific discovery. In order to bring together the principal researchers in this field, and so move closer to a unified theory of scientific reasoning and discovery, a symposium on this topic will be held at Stanford University on January 7 (Saturday) and January 8 (Sunday), 1989. The symposium will cross several methodological boundaries, including Cognitive Psychology, Artificial Intelligence, and Philosophy of Science, and will cover a variety of scientific domains. ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 \Presentations will be through invitation, but to ensure participation by researchers without `contacts' and from a broad range of related fields, a small number of additional attendees will be invited. The ideal participant will have developed and tested (by implementation, experiment, etc.) a computational theory of scientific reasoning, preferably emphasizing some aspect of discovery. These might include: * Mechanisms of theory formation * Prediction and causal reasoning * Experimentation and instrument construction * The organization of scientific information * Sociological and cultural issues * Unified models of discovery Applicants should send a short research summary (**maximum** of two pages) describing their research efforts and interests in scientific reasoning or discovery to the program co-chair (see notes below) by: igence, and Philosophy of Science, and will cover a variety of scientific domains. ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 4 >> OCTOBER 15, 1988 << Program co-Chairs: Jeff Shrager Xerox PARC 3333 Coyote Hill Rd. Palo Alto, CA 94304 Shrager@Xerox.com Phone: 415/494-4338 Pat Langley University of California at Irvine onal theory of scientific reasoning, preferably emphasizing some aspect of discovery. These might include: * Mechanisms of theory formation * Prediction and causal reasoning * Experimentation and instrument construction * The organization of scientific information * Sociological and cultural issues * Unified models of discovery Applicants should send a short research summary (**maximum** of two pages) describing their research efforts and interests in scientific reasoning or discovery to the program co-chair (see notes below) by: igence, and Philosophy of Science, and will cover a variety of scientific domains. ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 S langley@CIP.UCI.EDU [Please direct queries and applications to Jeff Shrager. Applications *must* be submitted in HARDCOPY via U.S.Mail (or in person). Other queries may be made by netmail, telephone, in writing, or in person.] ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 88 15:56:32 GMT From: rutgers!prc.unisys.com!finin@ucsd.edu (Tim Finin) Reply-to: rutgers!prc.unisys.com!finin@ucsd.edu (Tim Finin) Subject: Workshop on Evaluation of Natural Language Processing Systems CALL FOR PARTICIPATION Workshop on l and cultural issues * Unified models of discovery Applicants should send a short research summary (**maximum** of two pages) describing their research efforts and interests in scientific reasoning or discovery to the program co-chair (see notes below) by: igence, and Philosophy of Science, and will cover a variety of scientific domains. ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Evaluation of Natural Language Processing Systems December 8-9, 1988 Wayne Hotel, Wayne, PA (Suburban Philadelphia) There has been much recent interest in the difficult problem of evaluating natural language systems. With the exception of natural language interfaces there are few working systems in existence, and they tend to be concerned with very different tasks and use equally different techniques. There has been little agreement in the field about training sets and test sets, or about clearly defined subsets of problems that constitute standards for different levels of performance. Even those groups that have attempted a measure of self-evaluation have often been reduced to discussing a system's performance in isolation - comparing its current performance to its previous performance rather than to another system. As this ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 technology begins to move slowly into the marketplace, the need for useful evaluation techniques is becoming more and more obvious. The speech community has made some recent progress toward developing new methods of evaluation, and it is time that the natural language community followed suit. This is much more easily said than done and will require a concentrated effort on the part of the field. There are certain premises that should underly any discussion of evaluation of natural language processing systems: o It should be possible to discuss system evaluation in general without having to state whether the purpose of the system is "question-answering" or "text processing." Evaluating a system requires the definition of an application task in terms of I/O pairs which are equally applicable to question-answering, text processing, or generation. r than to another system. As this ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  o There are two basic types of evaluation: a) "black box evaluation" which measures system performance on a given task in terms of well-defined I/O pairs; and b) "glass box evaluation" which examines the internal workings of the system. For example, glass box performance evaluation for a system that is supposed to perform semantic and pragmatic analysis should include the examination of predicate-argument relations, referents, and temporal and causal relations. Given these premises, the workshop will be structured around the following three sessions: (1) Defining "glass box evaluation" and "black box evaluation."; (2) Defining criteria for "black box evaluation", (A Proposal for establishing task oriented benchmarks for NLP Systems, Session Chair - Beth Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 0systems. Researchers interested in participating should submit a short (250-500 word) description of their experience and interests, and expected contributions to the workshop. In particular, if they have been involved in any evaluation efforts that they would like to report on, they should include a short abstract (500-1000 words) as well. The number of participants at the workshop must be restricted due to limited room size. The descriptions and abstracts will be reviewed by the following committee: Martha Palmer (Unisys), Beth Sundheim (NOSC), Ed Hovy (ISI), Tim Finin (Unisys), and Lynn Bates (BBN). This material should arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 3 Unisys Paoli Research Center PO Box 517 Paoli, PA 19301 palmer@prc.unisys.com 215-648-7228 -- Tim Finin finin@prc.unisys.com Paoli Research Center ..!{psuvax1,sdcrdcf,cbmvax}!burdvax!finin Unisys 215-648-7446 (office) 215-386-1749 (home) PO Box 517, Paoli PA 19301 215-648-7412 (fax) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 12:05:02 EDT From: Christopher Prince Subject: Canadian AI Table of Contents, October 1988 ), Ed Hovy (ISI), Tim Finin (Unisys), and Lynn Bates (BBN). This material should arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 n Table of contents from Canadian Artificial Intelligence, No. 17, October 1988 a publication of the CSCSI (Canadian Society for Computational Studies of Intelligence). (Deadline for Next Issue: November 15, 1988) Communications 3 Executive Notes 8 Notes from Members AI News 9 Short Takes 11 New Products ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 12:05:02 EDT From: Christopher Prince Subject: Canadian AI Table of Contents, October 1988 ), Ed Hovy (ISI), Tim Finin (Unisys), and Lynn Bates (BBN). This material should arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Feature Articles 15 AI and Canada's Participation in Space Station Connie Bryson 19 Neural Networks: An Engineer's Perspective Casimir Klimasauskas Research Reports 25 Research in the Knowledge Sciences at the University of Calgary Ian Witten and Brian Gaines 30 AI Research and Development at CompEngServ, of the CEMTECH Group Ltd. Archie Bowen 32 AI Research at Bell-Northern Research Dick Peacocke Conference Reports 39 CIAR Graduate Student Workshop on Knowledge Representation Howard Hamilton and Sharon Hamilton should arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 746 CSCSI '88 Conference Howard Hamilton 49 26th Annual Meeting of the Association for Computational Linguistics Dan Lyons and Mark Ryan 54 Intelligent Tutoring Systems International Conference - 88 members of ARIES lab at U. of Saskatchewan Publications 61 Book Reviews 67 Books Received 67 Technical Reports 69 Conference Announcements ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please send any mail to the following addresses, and not to me: n Knowledge Representation Howard Hamilton and Sharon Hamilton should arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 e Content and Submissions: ----------------------- Canadian AI Magazine C/O Alberta Research Council, 6815 8th Street NE, 3rd Floor Calgary, Alberta, CANADA T2E 7H7 (403) 297-2600 UUCP: cscsi%arcsun.uucp%ubc.csnet@relay.cs.net or cscsi%noah.arc.cdn@alberta.uucp CDNnet: cscsi@noah.arc.cdn Subscription Requests: --------------------- 7 Technical Reports 69 Conference Announcements ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please send any mail to the following addresses, and not to me: n Knowledge Representation Howard Hamilton and Sharon Hamilton should arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 o CIPS 243 College Street (5th floor), Toronto, Ontario, CANADA M5T 2Y1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Sep 88 13:42:54 +0300 From: scia@stek5.oulu.fi (SCIA confrence in OULU) The 6th Scandinavian Conference on Image Analysis ================================================= June 19 - 22, 1989 Oulu, Finland hnical Reports 69 Conference Announcements ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please send any mail to the following addresses, and not to me: n Knowledge Representation Howard Hamilton and Sharon Hamilton should arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Second Call for Papers INVITATION TO 6TH SCIA The 6th Scandinavian Conference on Image Analysis (6SCIA) will be arranged by the Pattern Recognition Society of Fin- land from June 19 to June 22, 1989. The conference is spon- sored by the International Association for Pattern Recogni- tion. The conference will be held at the University of Oulu. Oulu is the major industrial city in North Finland, situated not far from the Arctic Circle. The conference site is at the Linnanmaa campus of the University, near downtown Oulu. CONFERENCE COMMITTEE ould arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Erkki Oja, Conference Chairman Matti Pietik{inen, Program Chairman Juha R|ning, Local organization Chairman Hannu Hakalahti, Exhibition Chairman Jan-Olof Eklundh, Sweden Stein Grinaker, Norway Teuvo Kohonen, Finland L. F. Pau, Denmark SCIENTIFIC PROGRAM The program will consist of contributed papers, invited talks and special panels. The contributed papers will cov- er: ed not far from the Arctic Circle. The conference site is at the Linnanmaa campus of the University, near downtown Oulu. CONFERENCE COMMITTEE ould arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  * computer vision * image processing * pattern recognition * perception * parallel algorithms and architectures as well as application areas including * industry * medicine and biology * office automation * remote sensing There will be invited speakers on the following topics: Industrial Machine Vision (Dr. J. Sanz, IBM Almaden Research Center) e conference site is at the Linnanmaa campus of the University, near downtown Oulu. CONFERENCE COMMITTEE ould arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Vision and Robotics (Prof. Y. Shirai, Osaka University) Knowledge-Based Vision (Prof. L. Davis, University of Maryland) Parallel Architectures (Prof. P. E. Danielsson, Link|ping University) Neural Networks in Vision (to be announced) Image Processing for HDTV (Dr. G. Tonge, Independent Broadcasting Authority). Panels will be organized on the following topics: Machine Vision (Dr. J. Sanz, IBM Almaden Research Center) e conference site is at the Linnanmaa campus of the University, near downtown Oulu. CONFERENCE COMMITTEE ould arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 j Visual Inspection in the Electronics Industry (moderator: prof. L. F. Pau); Medical Imaging (moderator: prof. N. Saranummi); Neural Networks and Conventional Architectures (moderator: prof. E. Oja); Image Processing Workstations (moderator: Dr. A. Kortekan- gas). SUBMISSION OF PAPERS Authors are invited to submit four copies of an extended summary of at least 1000 words of each of their papers to: Professor Matti Pietik{inen 6SCIA Program Chairman Dept. of Electrical Engineering CONFERENCE COMMITTEE ould arrive at the address given below no later than October 1st. Responses to all who submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  University of Oulu SF-90570 OULU, Finland tel +358-81-352765 fax +358-81-561278 telex 32 375 oylin sf net scia@steks.oulu.fi The summary should contain sufficient detail, including a clear description of the salient concepts and novel features of the work. The deadline for submission of summaries is December 1, 1988. Authors will be notified of acceptance by January 31st, 1989 and final camera-ready papers will be re- quired by March 31st, 1989. The length of the final paper must not exceed 8 pages. In- structions for writing the final paper will be sent to the submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  authors. EXHIBITION An exhibition is planned. Companies and institutions in- volved in image analysis and related fields are invited to exhibit their products at demonstration stands, on posters or video. Please indicate your interest to take part by con- tacting the Exhibition Committee: Matti Oikarinen P.O. Box 181 SF-90101 OULU Finland tel. +358-81-346488 telex 32354 vttou sf y papers will be re- quired by March 31st, 1989. The length of the final paper must not exceed 8 pages. In- structions for writing the final paper will be sent to the submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  fax. +358-81-346211 SOCIAL PROGRAM A social program will be arranged, including possibilities to enjoy the location of the conference, the sea and the midnight sun. There are excellent possibilities to make post-conference tours e.g. to Lapland or to the lake dis- trict of Finland. The social program will consist of a get-together party on Monday June 19th, a city reception on Tuesday June 20th, and the conference Banquet on Wednesday June 21st. These are all included in the registration fee. There is an extra fee for accompanying persons. REGISTRATION INFORMATION the final paper will be sent to the submit abstracts or descriptions will be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  The registration fee will be 1300 FIM before April 15th, 1989 and 1500 FIM afterwards. The fee for participants cov- ers: entrance to all sessions, panels and exhibition; proceedings; get-together party, city reception, banquet and coffee breaks. The fee is payable by - check made out to 6th SCIA and mailed to the Conference Secretariat; or by - bank transfer draft account or - all major credit cards Registration forms, hotel information and practical travel information are available from the Conference Secretariat. An information package will be sent to authors of accepted papers by January 31st, 1989. ill be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89  Secretariat: Congress Team P.O. Box 227 SF-00131 HELSINKI Finland tel. +358-0-176866 telex 122783 arcon sf fax +358-0-1855245 There will be hotel rooms available for participants, with prices ranging from 135 FIM (90 FIM) to 430 FIM (270 FIM) per night for a single room (double room/person). ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest - all major credit cards Registration forms, hotel information and practical travel information are available from the Conference Secretariat. An information package will be sent to authors of accepted papers by January 31st, 1989. ill be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&lD AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #89 ******************** Congress Team P.O. Box 227 SF-00131 HELSINKI Finland tel. +358-0-176866 telex 122783 arcon sf fax +358-0-1855245 There will be hotel rooms available for participants, with prices ranging from 135 FIM (90 FIM) to 430 FIM (270 FIM) per night for a single room (double room/person). ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest - all major credit cards Registration forms, hotel information and practical travel information are available from the Conference Secretariat. An information package will be sent to authors of accepted papers by January 31st, 1989. ill be sent by November 1st. Martha Palmer Sundheim); (3) Defining criteria for "glass box evaluation." (Session Chair - Jerry Hobbs). Several different types of systems will be discussed, including question-answering systems, text processing systems and generation ?&l`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here ...M---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Sep 88 16:21:31 CDT From: "Rich Winkel UMC Math Department" In article <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM>, rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) sez: >As a person who makes a living developing firmware to control hardware, >it is my informed opinion that SDI will be difficult to implement as >advertized, and certainly not on the advertized schedule. >But, I can think of two reasons right off the bat to go ahead and try. > >1) A whole bunch of that "trillion dollars" goes into the pockets of the > R&D people and support people as salaries. The government found an > excuse to fund hundreds of thousands of jobs for us, many being > high level R&D work. Anyone in a position where a good job would lQ5@`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here ...j> be useful shouldn't complain. This article has nothing to do with elementary rational thought, let alone physics. I find it hard to visualize the person who wrote it .. was he drooling on his keyboard? Does he have an eyeball sticking out of the middle of his forehead? I can't say for sure, but I do have some 'informed opinions' about the content of his article, if not his head. My credentials are that I do not make a living thinking of destructive applications for creative thought, thus my objectivity is not distorted by financial self interest. > What better way to serve the homeless > than to create massive quantities of new jobs. It's the Republican > version of welfare. (Before anyone says "The homeless can't do SDI > research!", think about all those hamburgers that will have to be > flipped for the researchers.) lQ5@`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here ...2Thank goodness for the 'excuse' that is SDI! I just know the government has been looking for ways to create jobs .. it was just waiting for the right project to come along. Too bad they couldn't find a way to put people to work on shelters for the homeless, child care, quality education, environmental cleanup, international and domestic promotion of basic human rights, etc, etc, etc, the sum total of which would probably come to less than a tenth of the cost of SDI, the sum benefit of which would help to propel this species into the 21st century with some hope of survival. Perhaps it would be more efficient for the government to directly employ the 'hamburger flippers' in a federally subsidized junk food research institute. We could build such a stockpile of burgers and heartburn remedies (anti-burgers) that no foreign power would dare tempt us into a burger war, for fear of death by flatulence. >2) WWII was almost worth fighting just for the technological advances > that came of it. For example: WWII led directly to computers and lQ5@`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here ...> and space exploration, and we all know what each of those then led to. > SDI research will certainly do just as much for us. I guess the only conclusion to be drawn here is that Mr. Wilson has never suffered any personal inconveniences as a result of WWII. I'm certainly pleased to hear it ... war is such a messy business we should all be spared the reality of it. I suppose that's the biggest breakthrough (in terms of 'future history') to come of war research: it no longer requires hordes of people to actually wage war. Nuclear annihilation has become simply a strategic gaming decision to be made in air conditioned bunkers by a few paper pushing yes-men who wouldn't know a drop of sweat from a tear. > Rail gun research > is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written > up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find > the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed echnological advances > that came of it. For example: WWII led directly to computers and lQ5@`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here ...> that the relativity theorists were wrong in at least this case.) What's this? You'll have to give a specific reference to that .. I've never heard of it. >We can't afford to not go ahead and try, even if we know it will never be >implemented. If everyone was of the "It won't work so we shouldn't try" >opinion then we would still be communicating with sticks and hollow logs. If this is representative of informed opinion in this country, we'll be back at the stick and log stage before we know it. Rich Winkel (UMC Math Dept, MATHPG1@UMCVMB.BITNET) Disclaimer: The President of the United States agrees with everything I say. -------------------------------- ouldn't know a drop of sweat from a tear. > Rail gun research > is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written > up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find > the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed echnological advances > that came of it. For example: WWII led directly to computers and lQ5@c\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90  AIList Digest Monday, 26 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 90 Queries: Awareness in Epistemic Logics Best AI Universities?? NL interfaces to Rule Based Expert Systems Source for the RETE algorithm (Forgy, CMU) Responses: Genetic Learning Algorithms Model-based Reasoning ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 Date: Fri, 23 Sep 88 18:34 SET From: Fabrizio Sebastiani Subject: Awareness in Epistemic Logics Does anybody know whether further studies have been carried out on Fagin and Halpern's notion of "awareness" in epistemic logics, as from their 1985 IJCAI paper? whether the notion had been previously discussed in the philosophy of language or the philosophy of mind? Anyone wishing to discuss the topic, provide references, send papers, etc., is invited to contact me. Fabrizio Sebastiani ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 88 15:37:29 GMT From: hpl-opus!hpccc!hp-sde!hpfcdc!hpgrla!danj@hplabs.hp.com (Dan Johnson) Subject: Best AI Universities?? 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90  *** I am conducting an informal survey on U.S. universities with graduate C.S. programs in the following areas: Image Processing Pattern Recognition AI Neural Nets User Interface Design Which universities have the best instructional and/or research programs in these areas and why? All opinions gratefully accepted. (Opinions based on factual data such as graduate surveys, etc. are even more gratefully accepted. :-). I will summarize and repost if there is sufficient interest. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 88 15:37:29 GMT From: hpl-opus!hpccc!hp-sde!hpfcdc!hpgrla!danj@hplabs.hp.com (Dan Johnson) Subject: Best AI Universities?? 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 u ---------------------------------------------------- Dan Johnson UUCP: hplabs!hpfcla!hpgrla!danj Hewlett-Packard Greeley Division ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 10:24:14 +1000 From: "ERIC Y.H. TSUI" Subject: NL interfaces to Rule Based Expert Systems I recently broadcasted and seek information on NL interfaces to rule based expert systems. There is no reply and I came across the following article: DATSKOVSKY-MOERDLER, G., McKEOWN, K.R. and ENSOR, J.R. (1987); Building Natural Language Interfaces for Rule-based Systems, IJCAI-87, !hp-sde!hpfcdc!hpgrla!danj@hplabs.hp.com (Dan Johnson) Subject: Best AI Universities?? 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 p682-687. The first two authors are from Columbia University (NY) and the third author is from AT&T Bell Lab. (Holmdel, N.J.). Would anyone have their e-mail address ? (I am still interested to learn about pointers to other work.) Eric Tsui eric@aragorn.oz Division of Computing and Mathematics Deakin University Geelong, Victoria 3217 Australia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Sep 88 10:51:03 +1000 s the following article: DATSKOVSKY-MOERDLER, G., McKEOWN, K.R. and ENSOR, J.R. (1987); Building Natural Language Interfaces for Rule-based Systems, IJCAI-87, !hp-sde!hpfcdc!hpgrla!danj@hplabs.hp.com (Dan Johnson) Subject: Best AI Universities?? 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 From: "ERIC Y.H. TSUI" Subject: Source for the RETE algorithm (Forgy, CMU) Anyone knows where I can obtain a version of the source/object code for the RETE algorithm (Forgy's, CMU) ? I would like to run a few experiments with it and if I do decide to incorporate that into our system, I would re-write one in Prolog anyway. (Needless to say, all for non-commerical purposes.) Versions in C, Lisp, Prolog, Smalltalk and Pascal all welcome. Am I correct that the latest publication on RETE is: Forgy, C.L. and Shepherd, S.J. (1987); Rete: A Fast Match Algorithm, AI Expert 2(4), p35-40. Eric Tsui eric@aragorn.oz Division of Computing and Mathematics Deakin University 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 PGeelong, Victoria 3217 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 13:36 PDT From: jan cornish Subject: Genetic Learning Algorithms Date: 18 Sep 88 13:49:01 GMT From: thefool@athena.mit.edu (Michael A. de la Maza) I am currently working on a genetic learning algorithm(gla) engine that draws inferences from a horse racing database (the results could be enRICHening). Has anyone compiled a bibliography of gla articles/books? If I'm inundated with responses I'll post a summary here. A Fast Match Algorithm, AI Expert 2(4), p35-40. Eric Tsui eric@aragorn.oz Division of Computing and Mathematics Deakin University 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90  What makes you think a GA will work? You probably would want to use a GA based "classifier system" (see a book by John Holland et. al. called Induction) in which a random population inductive rules are evolved. You might want to take a look at an article "Pinpointing Good Hypothesies with Heuristics" by Steven Salzberg in the book "Artifical Intelligenece & Statistics". He developed a weighted feature vector approach where the weights were updated by heuristics. It worked well. The feature vector was about 70 dimensional. Where are you getting your data? Michael A. de la Maza thefool@athena.mit.edu Query: What is the answer to this question? .oz Division of Computing and Mathematics Deakin University 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 EAnswer: what question is this the answer to? [There is a separate list covering genetic algorithms called GA-LIST. Send subscription requests to gref@NRL-AIC.ARPA. However, AIList will continue to carry occasional information ... A good list ... In addition, offutt@caen.engin.umich.edu (Daniel M. Offutt) is offering a GA function optimization package. Contact him for details. - nick] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Sep 88 19:31:46 EDT From: davis@wheaties.ai.mit.edu (Randall Davis) Michael A. de la Maza thefool@athena.mit.edu Query: What is the answer to this question? .oz Division of Computing and Mathematics Deakin University 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 Subject: Model-based Reasoning Concerning: From: jdavis@ucsd.edu (James P. Davis) Subject: Model-based Reasoning I am looking for some good references on the subject of Model-based reasoning (MBR). I am also interested in finding out who is doing work/research in this area, and what domains are being investigated. Nobody seems to have put any special compendiums (like Morgan Kaufmann) in this area yet. Any of you out there? See the article by Davis and Hamscher in "Exploring AI", a compendium of recent AAAI survey talks, just published by M/K. The article is a survey of the state of the art of model-based troubleshooting as of August 1987. Division of Computing and Mathematics Deakin University 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90 -In addition, I'm working on an edited collection of articles summarizing the MIT group's work in this area, including troubleshooting, test generation, design, design for testability, combining causal and associational reasoning, etc. Available in spring/summer 1989. How does MBR relate to "reasoning from first principles"? They're used essentially synonymously. "First principles" was used earlier on to emphasize that the systems reasoned from fundamental engineering principles rather than empirical associations; "model-based" has been used more recently to acknowledge the central role of the device model in comparing behavior predicted by the model with behavior actually emitted by the physical device. ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** 9rc\@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #90  addition, I'm working on an edited collection of articles summarizing the MIT group's work in this area, including troubleshooting, test generation, design, design for testability, combining causal and associational reasoning, etc. Available in spring/summer 1989. How does MBR relate to "reasoning from first principles"? They're used essentially synonymously. "First principles" was used earlier on to emphasize that the systems reasoned from fundamental engineering principles rather than empirical associations; "model-based" has been used more recently to acknowledge the central role of the device model in comparing behavior predicted by the model with behavior actually emitted by the physical device. ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** 9rňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 ^ AIList Digest Monday, 26 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 91 Philosophy -- Why do AI? (4 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Sep 88 20:56:11 GMT From: ucsdhub!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!serene!pnet12!bstev@ucsd.edu (Barry Stevens) Subject: Re: Why? markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: > Why does anyone want artificial intelligence? > A major determinant of how fragmented science is is how much communication >takes place. I submit here that the information explosion is for the most part > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 >an explosion in redundancy brought about by a communication bottleneck. Our >goal is then to find a way to open up this bottle neck. It is here, again that >AI (especially in relation to intelligent data bases) may come to the rescue. Along with the need to handle increasing amounts of information, comes an increased need for performance: Timeliness -- the speed at which information must be processed has increased dramatically. (e.g. computer console messages in a commercial datacenter with multiple CPUs need to be analyzed at the rates of 5 to 50 per SECOND. ) Accuracy -- decisions must be made at accuracies that are beyond the sustained ability of human experts (e.g process control systems needing 0.1% accuracy in set point values for hundreds of variables set every minute for 24 hrs/day) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91  Cost -- expert knowledge must be employed in situations where the presence of experts can't be afforded (e.g. stock or commodity trading systems based on expert systems and/or neural nets) Availability- most experts are fond of their weekends and evenings, and make a very big deal over their vacations. AI methods can make their skills available 24 hrs, 365 days/year. I have surveyed many companies in their use of AI techniques. My personal feeling, supported by no one else at this point, is that the "why" of AI will be answered when the following application is implemented and becomes widespread: A mid level manager must analyze a budget report once a week. He uses the rules he follows as the basis for an expert system: "If the variance is greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 / is greater than 10% of plan, OR ... " an then delegates the expert system and his rule base of 10, 15, or 20 rules to HIS SECRETARY, AI and expert systems will have come of age in industry. The big question will be answered not by robotics applications, or speaker independent speech recognition, or writer-independent character recognition, or even smart data bases. (Most professionals don't use data bases), but by simple tasks, done by almost everyone in the work environment, taken over or delegated to someone else as a result of AI. The AI applications that do that will propogate across the workplace like LOTUS or other truly horizontal applications. UUCP: {crash ncr-sd}!pnet12!bstev ARPA: crash!pnet12!bstev@nosc.mil INET: bstev@pnet12.cts.com ------------------------------ as the basis for an expert system: "If the variance is greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91  Date: Mon, 19 Sep 88 10:17:41 -0400 (EDT) From: David Greene Subject: Re: Why? In markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: >The first thing that comes to mind is our current situation >as regards science -- its increasing specialization. Most people will >agree that this is a trend that has gone way too far ... to the extent that >we may have sacrificed global perspective and competence in our >specialists; and further that it is a trend that needs to be reversed. >Yet fewer would dare to suggest that we can overcome the problem. I agree that this is serious and that AI, as an inherently interdisciplinary field, has the potential to pull areas together. However, there is tremendous ---------------- as the basis for an expert system: "If the variance is greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 pressure within the academic community to encourge and reward *focused* efforts in a narrow area, at least until you become a tenured old-sage :-) It's very time consuming to keep up with multiple fields to any real depth but even as you look for synergy you hear your advisor saying, "It won't get published if the the editors don't have a department for it..." Even when there is a department, it is suggested that you remove the excess (other disciplines) to make it more relevent or accessible to the regular readership. I think it's worth the effort, but it would certainly help if it weren't such an uphill struggle. -David ----------------- David Perry Greene GSIA dg1v@andrew.cmu.edu Carnegie Mellon University mendous ---------------- as the basis for an expert system: "If the variance is greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 2"You're welcome to use my oppinions, just don't get them all wrinkled." ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 88 06:59:52 GMT From: TAURUS.BITNET!shani@ucbvax.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Why? In article <6823@uwmcsd1.UUCP>, markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.BITNET writes: > Why does anyone want artificial intelligence? > > What is it that you're seeking to gain by it? What is it that you would have > an intelligent machine do? Well, well waddaya know! :-) Not long ago, an endless argument was held in this newsgroup, reguarding AI rt, but it would certainly help if it weren't such an uphill struggle. -David ----------------- David Perry Greene GSIA dg1v@andrew.cmu.edu Carnegie Mellon University mendous ---------------- as the basis for an expert system: "If the variance is greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 kand value-systems. It seem that the reason this argument did not (as far as I know) reach any constructive conclousions, is that the question above was never raised... So realy? what do we expect an intelligent machine to be like? Or let me sharp the question a bit: How will we know that a machine is intelligent, if we lack the means to measure (or even to define) intelligence ? This may sound a bit cynical, but it is my opinion that setting up such misty goals, and useing therms like 'intelligence' or 'value-systems' to describe them, is mainly ment to fund something which MAY BE beneficial (since research is allmost always beneficial in some way), but will never reach those goals... why who would like to fund a research which will only end up with easyer to use programming languages or faster computers? greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 O.S. BTW: I wish it wasn't like that. It could be wonderful if RND financing was not goal-depended... all and all, the important thing is the research itself. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 88 20:32:10 GMT From: quintus!certes!jeff2@unix.sri.com ( jeff) Subject: Re: Why? in article <867@taurus.BITNET>, shani@TAURUS.BITNET says: > > In article <6823@uwmcsd1.UUCP>, markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.BITNET writes: >> Why does anyone want artificial intelligence? >> als, and useing therms like 'intelligence' or 'value-systems' to describe them, is mainly ment to fund something which MAY BE beneficial (since research is allmost always beneficial in some way), but will never reach those goals... why who would like to fund a research which will only end up with easyer to use programming languages or faster computers? greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 !>> What is it that you're seeking to gain by it? What is it that you would have >> an intelligent machine do? > > Or let me sharp the question a bit: > > How will we know that a machine is intelligent, if we lack > the means to measure (or even to define) intelligence ? > > This may sound a bit cynical, but it is my opinion that setting up such > misty goals, and useing therms like 'intelligence' or 'value-systems' to > describe them, is mainly ment to fund something which MAY BE beneficial > (since research is allmost always beneficial in some way), but will never > reach those goals... why who would like to fund a research which will only > end up with easyer to use programming languages or faster computers? > Consider the following: end up with easyer to use programming languages or faster computers? greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 2 1): it takes nearly 30 years (from conception to expert level) to train a new programmer/software engineer 2): the average "expert expectancy" of this person is (I'm guessing) probably 10 - 15 years 3): there are nearly 100,000,000 working people with ideas to improve the way their jobs are done. 4): that (perhaps) 1 person in 10 of these has the skills to automate the job. At least two people are required to automate some portion of a task; one to describe the process and one to automate it; this increases the cost of the automation process (two salaries are being paid to do one job), and limits the number of tasks that can be automated at any one time to the number of automaters available. r to use programming languages or faster computers? greater than $1000 in Acct 101, OR the TOTAL in Line 5 ) > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91  As a result, the number of tasks to be automated is expanding much more rapidly than the number of people to automate it. Given that few automaters remain experts in their field long enough to be fully replaced, we have no choice but to reduce the skill level required to automate a task if we want to improve our abilities to automate tasks. This alone is justification for research into "easy to use" languages. Additionally, it would be nice if AI could create a tool for the development of the other automation tools that are sufficiently close to those in current use (e.g. English) that little training is required to use them. -- /*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ Jeff Griffith Teradyne/Attain, Inc., San Jose, CA 95131 (408)434-0822 Disclaimer: The views expressed here are strictly my own. Paths: jeff@certes!quintus or jeff@certes!aeras!sun > ňAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #91 R ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** than the number of people to automate it. Given that few automaters remain experts in their field long enough to be fully replaced, we have no choice but to reduce the skill level required to automate a task if we want to improve our abilities to automate tasks. This alone is justification for research into "easy to use" languages. Additionally, it would be nice if AI could create a tool for the development of the other automation tools that are sufficiently close to those in current use (e.g. English) that little training is required to use them. -- /*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ Jeff Griffith Teradyne/Attain, Inc., San Jose, CA 95131 (408)434-0822 Disclaimer: The views expressed here are strictly my own. Paths: jeff@certes!quintus or jeff@certes!aeras!sun > v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92  AIList Digest Monday, 26 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 92 Philosophy: Theft or Honest Toil, Pinker & Prince, learning rules Common sense knowledge of continuous action (2 messages) I got rhythm Commonsense reasoning ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Sep 88 22:35:01 GMT From: mnetor!utzoo!dciem!dretor!client2!mmt@uunet.uu.net (Martin Taylor) Subject: Theft or Honest Toil, (was Re: Pinker & Prince Reply (long version)) v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92  Harnad characterizes learning rules from a rule-provider as "theft", whereas obtaining them by evaluation of the statistics of input data is "honest toil". But the analogy is perhaps better in a different domain: learning by evaluating the statistics of the environment is like building up amino acids and other nutritious things from inorganic molecules through photosynthesis, whereas obtaining rules from rule-providers is like eating already built nutritious things. One ofthe great advantages of language is that we CAN take advantage of the regularities discovered in the data by other people. The rules they tell us may be wrong, but to use them is easier than to discover our own rules. It is hardly to be taken as an analogy to "theft". If we look at early child learning, the "theft" question becomes: Has evolution provided us with a set of rules that we do not have to obtain from the data, so that we can later obtain more rules from v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 4people who did themselves learn from data? Obviously in some sense the answer is "yes" there are SOME innate rules regarding how we interpret sensory input, even if those rules are as low-level as to indicate how to put together a learning net. Obviously, also, there are MANY rules that we have to get from the data and/or from people who learned them from the data. The question then becomes whether the "rules" regarding past-tense formation are of the innate kind, of the data-induced kind, or of the passed-on kind. My understanding of the developmental literature is that children pass through three phases: (i) correct past-tense formation for those verbs for which the child uses the past tense frequently; (ii) false regularization, in which non-regular past tenses (went) are replaced by regularized ones (goed); (iii) more-or-less correct past tense formation, in which exceptions are properly used, AND novel or neologized verbs are given regular past tenses (in some sense of regular). This sequence suggests to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 have any innate rule component. Initially, all words are separate, in the sense that "went" is a different word from "go". Later, relations among words are made (I will not say "noticed"), and the notion of "go" becomes part of the notion of "went". Furthermore, the notion of a root meaning with tense modification becomes part of verbs in general. Again, I will not say that this is connected with any kind of symbolic rule. It may be the development of net nodes that are activated for root parts and for modifer parts of words. It would be overly rash to claim either that rules are involved or that they are not. In the final stage, the rule-like way of obtaining past tenses is well established enough that the exceptions can be clearly distinguished (whether statistically or otherwise is again disputable). One thing that seems perfectly clear is that humans are in general capable of inducing rules in the sense that some people can verbalize those rules. When such a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 the student must, initially at least, apply it AS a rule. But even in this case, it is not clear that skilled use of what has been learned involves continuing to use the rule AS a rule. It may have served to induce new node structures in a net. In "The Psychology of Reading" (Academic Press, 1983), my wife and I discussed such a sequence under the heading of "Three-phased Learning", which we took to be a fairly general pattern in the learning of skilled behaviour (such as reading). Phase 1 is the learning of large-scale unique patterns. Phase 2 is the discovery of consistent sub-patterns and consistent ways in which the sub-patterns relate to each other (induction or acquisition of rules). Phase 3 is the incorporation of these sub-elements and relational patterns into newly structured global patterns--the acquisition of true skill. "Theft," in Harnad's terms, can occur only as part of Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 current connectionist models are mainly appropriate to Phase 1, and that symbolic approaches are mainly appropriate to Phase 2, though there is necessarily overlap. There should not be a contention among models using one or other approach, if this is so. They are both correct, but under different circumstances. -- Martin Taylor DCIEM, Box 2000, Downsview, Ontario, Canada M3M 3B9 uunet!mnetor!dciem!client1!mmt or mmt@zorac.arpa (416) 635-2048 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 88 1543 PDT From: John McCarthy Subject: common sense knowledge of continuous action If Genesereth and Nilsson didn't give an example to illustrate why differential equations aren't enough, they should have. these sub-elements and relational patterns into newly structured global patterns--the acquisition of true skill. "Theft," in Harnad's terms, can occur only as part of Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 The example I like to give when I lecture is that of spilling the water glass on the lectern. If the front row is very close, it might get wet, but usually not even that. The Navier-Stokes equations govern the flow of the spilled water but are entirely useless in this common sense situation. No-one can acquire the initial conditions or integrate the equations sufficiently rapidly. Moreover, absorption of water by the materials it flows over is probably a strong enough effect, so that more than the Navier-Stokes equations would be necessary. Thus there is no "scientific theory" involving differential equations, queuing theory, etc. that can be used by a robot to determine what can be expected when a glass of water is spilled, given what information is actually available to an observer. To use the terminology of my 1969 paper with Pat Hayes, the differential equations don't form art of Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 an epistemologically adequate model of the phenomenon, i.e. a model that uses the information actually available. While some people are interested in modelling human performance as an aspect of psychology, my interest is artificial intelligence. There is no conflict with science. What we need is a scientific theory that can use the information available to a robot with human opportunities to observe and do as well as a human in predicting what will happen. Thus our goal is a scientific common sense. The Navier-Stokes equations are important in (1) the design of airplane wings, (2) in the derivation of general inequalities, some of which might even be translatable into terms common sense can use. For example, the Bernoulli effect, once a person has (usually with difficulty) integrated it into his common sense knowledge can be useful for qualitatively predicting the effects of m art of Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 winds flowing over a house. Finally, the Navier Stokes equations are imbedded in a framework of common sense knowledge and reasoning that determine the conditions under which they are applied to the design of airplane wings, etc. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 88 01:18:29 GMT From: garth!smryan@unix.sri.com (Steven Ryan) Subject: Re: state and change/continuous actions >Foundations of Artificial Intelligence," I find it interesting to >compare and contrast the concepts described in Chapter 11 - "State >and Change" with state/change concepts defined within systems >theory and simulation modeling. The authors make the following statement: slatable into terms common sense can use. For example, the Bernoulli effect, once a person has (usually with difficulty) integrated it into his common sense knowledge can be useful for qualitatively predicting the effects of m art of Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 >"Insufficient attention has been paid to the problem of continuous >actions." Now, a question that immediately comes to mind is "What problem?" Presumably, they are referring to that formal systems are strictly discrete and finite. This has to do to with `effective computation.' Discrete systems can be explained in such simple terms that is always clear exactly what is being done. Continuous systems are computably using calculus, but is this `effective computation?' Calculus uses a number of existent theorems which prove some point or set exists, but provide no method to effectively compute the value. Or is knowing the value exists sufficient because, after all, we can map the real line into a bounded interval which can be traversed in finite time? It is not clear that all natural phenomon can be modelled on the discrete and finite digital computer. If not, what computer could we use? Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 ->Any thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 88 01:18:45 GMT From: dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu (Mark Gresham) Subject: I got rhythm In a recent article PGOETZ@LOYVAX.BITNET writes: >Here's a question for anybody: Why do we have rhythm? > >Picture yourself tapping your foot to the tune of the latest Top 40 trash hit. >While you do this, your brain is busy processing sensory inputs, controlling >the muscles in your foot, and thinking about whatever you think about when >you listen to Top 40 music. exists, but provide no method to effectively compute the value. Or is knowing the value exists sufficient because, after all, we can map the real line into a bounded interval which can be traversed in finite time? It is not clear that all natural phenomon can be modelled on the discrete and finite digital computer. If not, what computer could we use? Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 >[...text deleted...] >It comes down to this: Different actions require different processing >overhead. So why, no matter what we do, do we perceive time as a constant? The fact is, we *don't*. (Take it from a musician!) Generally people have a quite erratic perception of time. Th perception (the top 40 example) is one of constancy in relationship to some other perceived event be believe to be constant (or assume is so). Hence, the "beats" in the music (which we deem to be regular) are giving us fresh input which we use to "correct" our foot tapping. >Why do we, in fact, have rhythm? Do we have an internal clock, or a >"main loop" which takes a constant time to run? Or do we have an inadequate >view of consciousness when we see it as a program? > >Phil Goetz hat all natural phenomon can be modelled on the discrete and finite digital computer. If not, what computer could we use? Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 >PGOETZ@LOYVAX.bitnet Try this experiment. Or several of you try it. Take a stopwatch (digital is preferable because silent). Don't look at it or any other clock, and don't count; press the start button. Then, when you think five minutes are up, stop it. Look at the watch and see how you did. I know of one percussionist who is said to be quite accurate. If you are really concentrating on "the passage of time" --genuinely trying to be aware of it--my guess is that you'll start to sweat (or otherwise become uncomfortable) after about 40 seconds or so. It takes quite a bit of discipline to empty your mind enough to successfully do that. Try it. Invent other similar experiments. Let me know what you discover. ciousness when we see it as a program? > >Phil Goetz hat all natural phenomon can be modelled on the discrete and finite digital computer. If not, what computer could we use? Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92  --Mark Gresham (please e-mail or post to rec.music.classical) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mark Gresham Atlanta, GA, USA UUCP: ...!gatech!dscatl!mgresham INTERNET: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 88 15:20:13 GMT From: fishwick@bikini.cis.ufl.edu (Paul Fishwick) Subject: commonsense reasoning me" --genuinely trying to be aware of it--my guess is that you'll start to sweat (or otherwise become uncomfortable) after about 40 seconds or so. It takes quite a bit of discipline to empty your mind enough to successfully do that. Try it. Invent other similar experiments. Let me know what you discover. ciousness when we see it as a program? > >Phil Goetz hat all natural phenomon can be modelled on the discrete and finite digital computer. If not, what computer could we use? Phase 2. Both Phase 1 and Phase 3 involve "honest toil." My feeling is that a person "teaches" a rule to a "student", to me that the pattern does not v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92  I very much appreciate Prof. McCarthy's response and would like to comment. The "water glass on the lectern" example is a good one for commonsense reasoning; however, let's further examine this scenario. First, if we wanted a highly accurate model of water flow then we would probably use flow equations (such as the NS equations) possibly combined with projectile modeling. Note also that a lumped model of the detailed math model may reduce complexity and provide an answer for us. We have not seen specific work in this area since spilt water in a room is of little scientific value to most researchers. Please note that I am not trying to be facetious -- I am just trying to point out that *if* the goal is "to solve the problem of predicting the result of continuous actions" then math models (and not commonsense models) are the method of choice. Note that the math model need not be limited to a single set of PDE's. Also, the math model can be an abstract "lumped model" with less complexity. The general method of simulation incorporates combined continuous and discrete methods to solve all kinds of physical problems. For instance, v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 mone needs to use notions of probability (that a water will make it to the front row), simplified flow equations, and projectile motion. Also, solving of the "problem of what happens to the water" need not involve flow equations. Witness, for instance, the work of Toffoli and Wolfram where cellular automata may be used "as an alternative to" differential equations. Also, the problem may be solved using visual pattern matching - it is quite likely that humans "reason" about "what will happen" to spilt liquids using associative database methods (the neural netlanders might like this approach) based on a huge library of partial images from previous experience (note Kosslyn's work). I still haven't mentioned anything about artificial intelligence yet - just methods of problem solving. I agree that differential equations by themselves do not comprise an epistemologically adequate model. But note that no complex problem is solved using only one model language (such as DE's). The use of simulation is a nice example since, in simulating a complex system, one might use many "languages" to solve the problem. al problems. For instance, v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 0Therefore, I'm not sure that epistemological adequacy is the issue. The issue is, instead, to solve the problem by whatever methods available. Now, back to AI. I agree that "there is no theory involving DE's (etc.) that can be used by a robot to determine what can be expected when a glass of water is spilled." I would like to take the stronger position that searching for such a singular theory seems futile. Certainly, robots of the future will need to reason about the world and about moving liquids; however, we can program robots to use pattern matching and whatever else is necesssary to "solve the problem." I supposed that I am predisposed to an engineering philosophy that would suggest research into a method to allow robots to perform pattern recognition and equation solving to answer questions about the real world. I see no evidence of a specific theory that will represent the "intelligence" of the robot. I see only a plethora of problem solving tools that can be used to make future robots more and more adaptive to their environments. ystem, one might use many "languages" to solve the problem. al problems. For instance, v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 O If commonsense theories are to be useful then they must be validated. Against what? Well, these theories could be used to build programs that can be placed inside working robots. Those robots that performed better (according to some statistical criterion) would validate respective theories used to program them. One must either 1) validate against real world data [the cornerstone to the method of computer simulation] , or 2) improved performance. Do commonsense theories have anything to say about these two "yardsticks?" Note that there are many AI research efforts that have addressed validation - expert systems such as MYCIN correctly answered "more and more" diagnoses as the program was improved. The yardstick for MYCIN is therefore a statistical measure of validity. My hat is off to the MYCIN team for proving the efficacy of their methods. Expert systems are indeed a success. Chess programs have a simple yardstick - their USCF or FIDE rating. This concentration of yardsticks and method of validation is not only helpful, it is essential to demonstrate the an AI method uages" to solve the problem. al problems. For instance, v@AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #92 }is useful. -paul +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Prof. Paul A. Fishwick.... INTERNET: fishwick@bikini.cis.ufl.edu | | Dept. of Computer Science. UUCP: gatech!uflorida!fishwick | | Univ. of Florida.......... PHONE: (904)-335-8036 | | Bldg. CSE, Room 301....... FAX is available | | Gainesville, FL 32611..... | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** MYCIN correctly answered "more and more" diagnoses as the program was improved. The yardstick for MYCIN is therefore a statistical measure of validity. My hat is off to the MYCIN team for proving the efficacy of their methods. Expert systems are indeed a success. Chess programs have a simple yardstick - their USCF or FIDE rating. This concentration of yardsticks and method of validation is not only helpful, it is essential to demonstrate the an AI method uages" to solve the problem. al problems. For instance, ; PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Maxwell's Demon (Somewhat longO---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 20:46:43 GMT From: charles@hpficad.HP.COM (Charles Moore) Article-I.D.: <1300006@hpficad.HP.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <22022@sgi.SGI.COM> The problem is that the door needs only a very small amount of energy to open. If a molecule can open it and then pass through without rebounding then the door must require much less than kT to open. Once it has been opened it will still have that energy and even if it snaps shut at once it will keep flying open until something removes that energy. Since the energy is much less than kT any damper you put on the door will be more likely to add energy to it than remove it. In other words, random thermal fluctuations will keep opening the door randomly independent of any molecules nearby. GP+; PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Maxwell's Demon (Somewhat long$ -------------------------------- ---------------------------- Date: 20 Sep 88 20:46:43 GMT From: charles@hpficad.HP.COM (Charles Moore) Article-I.D.: <1300006@hpficad.HP.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <22022@sgi.SGI.COM> The problem is that the door needs only a very small amount of energy to open. If a molecule can open it and then pass through without rebounding then the door must require much less than kT to open. Once it has been opened it will still have that energy and even if it snaps shut at once it will keep flying open until something removes that energy. Since the energy is much less than kT any damper you put on the door will be more likely to add energy to it than remove it. In other words, random thermal fluctuations will keep opening the door randomly independent of any molecules nearby. GP+ }PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 11:33:18 GMT From: gwc@root.co.uk (Geoff Clare) Article-I.D.: <640@root44.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1965@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1464@edsel> <1987@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <1991@iscuva.ISCS.COM> J Storrs Hall writes: >>Actually [lightning rods] do prevent lightning by sucking (or spraying, >>depending on your definition) charge from the air ... >>This is why they are sharpened. > [Various responses saying that the rod "prevents" strikes only by > attracting lightning] Didn't you do the classic experiment in a school physics class where I1@ }PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff zyou hold a pin in your hand and move it slowly towards a fully charged Van der Graff generator? You don't get a shock. The same principle applies to lightning rods. -- Geoff Clare UniSoft Limited, Saunderson House, Hayne Street, London EC1A 9HH gwc@root.co.uk ...!mcvax!ukc!root44!gwc +44-1-606-7799 FAX: +44-1-726-2750 -------------------------------- lly [lightning rods] do prevent lightning by sucking (or spraying, >>depending on your definition) charge from the air ... >>This is why they are sharpened. > [Various responses saying that the rod "prevents" strikes only by > attracting lightning] Didn't you do the classic experiment in a school physics class where I1@fPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 88 23:16:20 GMT From: uw-beaver!tektronix!percival!bucket!leonard@Cornell.ARPA (Leonard Erickson) Article-I.D.: <1065@bucket.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA> <69658@sun.uucp> In article <69658@sun.uucp> fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes: , JPOULIN%BOWDOIN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU writes: <> From: <> >Star Wars is 30% effective... <> <> Perhaps this sounds silly and naive, but peace is 100% effective. Doesn't <> is make more sense to spend the trillion dollars in huge programs to avoid] <> nuclear war than to deal with it? < In the real world it only take *one* side to start a war (nuclear or otherwise) There are only a few ways to convince them not to. 1. Make their attacks unlikely to succeed (defnse) 2. Make them certain that *you* will finish any fight that *they* start (offense) 3. Convince them that they don't want to attack you (diplomacy) Option 3 *sounds* the cheapest, but when dealing with some governments (Libya comes to mind) you need to have 1 or 2 to back up 3. Remember, the other side may not agree with you on such things as the morality of starting a war... -- Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard CIS: [70465,203] "I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'. er to deal with nuclear war than to avoid it? KfPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars LYou know... I'd rather be a hacker." -------------------------------- r or otherwise) There are only a few ways to convince them not to. 1. Make their attacks unlikely to succeed (defnse) 2. Make them certain that *you* will finish any fight that *they* start (offense) 3. Convince them that they don't want to attack you (diplomacy) Option 3 *sounds* the cheapest, but when dealing with some governments (Libya comes to mind) you need to have 1 or 2 to back up 3. Remember, the other side may not agree with you on such things as the morality of starting a war... -- Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard CIS: [70465,203] "I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'. er to deal with nuclear war than to avoid it? Ktj PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... "---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Sep 88 12:08:24 GMT From: mcvax!cernvax!ethz!iis!heiser@UUNet.UU.NET (Gernot Heiser) Article-I.D.: <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In article <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: >... Additionally, the >Soviets strongly believe that their civil defense plans can greatly >reduce the cost of a nuclear war. This is true! The Soviet civil defense >is amazing, they can protect come of the population which the US can not >do at all. Gimme a break! Only someone with no idea what nuclear war means can utter such Mtj PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... nnonsense! Switzerland reputedly has the world's best civil defence system (including shelter space for more than 95% of the population, that is far more than what the Sowjets or any other country is capable of). I agree, this can make a difference in a conventional war, it even might help in the case of a nuclear war in neighbour countries. However, in a real nuclear war in the country, there is just no way of protecting the majority of the population. Even if one managed to get them all into the shelters BEFORE the bombs fall (more than unlikely), even if most of the shelters survive the explosions (a large fraction might), how are they to survive the destruction for months if not years? Which air are they to breathe? Which water to drink? How do you want to feed them? A full scale nuclear war would certainly mean the end of civilization as we know it, no shelter can change that fact. To quote Einstein: "I don't know the weapons world war three will be fought with, but world war four will be fought with stones and clubs." This, not neglect, is the reason for most western nations not wasting much Mtj PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... money on a self defence that is mainly self-deception. > SDI has the potential to make nuclear missiles obselete, thus >saving immense amounts of money that now go to weapons production >and maintainance. A similiar rationale lay behind the buildup of American strategic nuclear forces after WW 2: the believe that nuclear deterrence was cheaper than conventional armies. One more believe that ended up on the garbage heap of history. SDI has the potential of increasing defence spendings even further (the money will have to come from education, research, social budgets). It has the potential of destabilzing the balance of power. There is no way it can render nuclear weapons obsolete. Nobody in the military or the government would throw away the nuclear weapons or even disontinue their maintenance and modernization unless they are certain that SDI is 100% perfect. And of course, they won't te Einstein: "I don't know the weapons world war three will be fought with, but world war four will be fought with stones and clubs." This, not neglect, is the reason for most western nations not wasting much Mtj PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... :believe that, until they see it. In other words, SDI will first have to prove itself in an actual full scale nuclear war before the nuclear weapons are discarded. Do you want that test to happen? I don't! Assume it was perfect, this little "test" would still mean destruction for the other side which doesn't have SDI (and, of course, afterwards the power with SDI would dominate the world completely). Assume it's not perfect? You want to be around? In fact, SDI will be notoriously unreliable until such a real "test" is conducted. Just for the software demands on reliability will be many orders of magnitude bejond anything that's possible today. Did anybody ever hear of a large software system that worked without any testing right from the beginning? SDI software will be orders of magnitude bigger than anything around today. To get an idea of the reliability of todays defence software, look at Scientific American articles like "Why SDI cannot work" (or something of that kind, I think around Jan. 87) or remember the shootdown of the Iranian civilian e reason for most western nations not wasting much Mtj PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... LAirliner a few months ago. Anybody who has any experience of programming-in- the-large knows that this is unavoidable. By the way, the APS study showed that Physics and technology are orders of magnitude off SDI demands. Surprised that Physicists tend to be against SDI? SDI will be a major sink of money that could be better used elsewhere until even politicians will realise that it's bogus. Don't count on the spinoffs. Most results of SDI research will be classified, lots of it will be far too specialized to be of use in peaceful research. Half the money put into regular research will produce much more benefits for everyone - with far less danger to everyone. >Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu >234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner >Cambridge, MA 02139 oday. To get an idea of the reliability of todays defence software, look at Scientific American articles like "Why SDI cannot work" (or something of that kind, I think around Jan. 87) or remember the shootdown of the Iranian civilian e reason for most western nations not wasting much Mtj PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... B-- Gernot Heiser Phone: +41 1/256 23 48 Integrated Systems Laboratory CSNET/ARPA: heiser%ifi.ethz.ch@relay.cs.net ETH Zuerich EARN/BITNET: GRIDFILE@CZHETH5A CH-8092 Zuerich, Switzerland EUNET/UUCP: {uunet,mcvax,...}!iis!heiser -------------------------------- be better used elsewhere until even politicians will realise that it's bogus. Don't count on the spinoffs. Most results of SDI research will be classified, lots of it will be far too specialized to be of use in peaceful research. Half the money put into regular research will produce much more benefits for everyone - with far less danger to everyone. >Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu >234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner >Cambridge, MA 02139 oday. To get an idea of the reliability of todays defence software, look at Scientific American articles like "Why SDI cannot work" (or something of that kind, I think around Jan. 87) or remember the shootdown of the Iranian civilian e reason for most western nations not wasting much M PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Hybrid Orbitals ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 04:37:03 GMT From: lew@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Article-I.D.: <9608@ihlpa.ATT.COM> Jonas Wallgren posted what I thought was an interesting question which nobody ( that I saw ) responded to: >(s and p also stand for the greek letters sigma and pi) > >Why can't the series sp3-, sp2-, sp-hybridization be continued to 'sp0', i.e. >no hybridization at all? > >One could imagine a quadruple binding between two (the typical example: carbon) >atoms consisting of an s-binding between the s-orbitals, an s-binding between >the two 'axial' p-orbitals, and two p-bindings between the two remaining pairs O PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Hybrid Orbitals &>of p-orbitals. > >I believe there are some energy constraints forbidding such a configuration, >but I don't know which they are so I would like an explanation. I looked in Pilar's Quantum Chemistry text, and found that this is not a stupid question by any means. Pilar makes a first pass at a diatomic molecule with just the scheme Jonas suggests. However, on the next page he goes on to use sp hybridization to get a more accurate scheme. Instead of saying that energy constraints "forbid" the suggested configuration, I would say that the potential mixes the states, but this is a quibble. The comment I wanted to make is that the hybridization schemes are just a reflection of the symmetry of the bonding environment. sp3 gives a tetrahedron, sp2 a triangle, and sp gives asymmetry O PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Hybrid Orbitals along one axis. We believe the low energy atomic states must have a large overlap with the actual molecular states because we can regard the molecular environment as a perturbation, even if a large one, on the atomic potential. It's natural then to build our molecular orbitals out of the low energy atomic orbitals. We get the hybrids by looking for the natural molecular orbitals which we can express as a function of the atomic orbitals. Remember that the atomic orbitals don't have a natural existence, except in the isolated atom. They are really a computational artifact, so it is somewhat misleading to speak of hybridization at all. The molecule has its own states which we are trying to reduce to more familiar terms. Lew Mammel, Jr. , sp2 a triangle, and sp gives asymmetry O PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Hybrid Orbitals & -------------------------------- energy atomic states must have a large overlap with the actual molecular states because we can regard the molecular environment as a perturbation, even if a large one, on the atomic potential. It's natural then to build our molecular orbitals out of the low energy atomic orbitals. We get the hybrids by looking for the natural molecular orbitals which we can express as a function of the atomic orbitals. Remember that the atomic orbitals don't have a natural existence, except in the isolated atom. They are really a computational artifact, so it is somewhat misleading to speak of hybridization at all. The molecule has its own states which we are trying to reduce to more familiar terms. Lew Mammel, Jr. , sp2 a triangle, and sp gives asymmetry OPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SN1987A ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Sep 88 13:08:08 PDT From: FETZER%CCV.MFENET@NMFECC.ARPA Comment: From FETZER@CCV.MFENET on 26-SEP-1988 13:07:37.05 PDT -------------------------------- QcVr@z0PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Diffusion-limited Aggregation #---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Sep 88 13:14:24 PDT From: FETZER%CCV.MFENET@NMFECC.ARPA Comment: From FETZER@CCV.MFENET on 26-SEP-1988 13:09:10.66 PDT While I'm requesting info, how about 'Diffusion-limited Aggregation'? The focus here is on fractal growth processes. Again, I've come across some older references, but nothing very recent. Any and all information would be appreciated. Mike FETZER@NMFECC.arpa FETZER%ccc.MfeNet@SDSC.BITnet -------------------------------- U'g L AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93  AIList Digest Tuesday, 27 Sep 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 93 Philosophy -- The Grand Challenge (4 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Sep 88 08:20:17 GMT From: peregrine!zardoz!dhw68k!feedme!doug@jpl-elroy.arpa (Doug Salot) Subject: Grand Challenges In the 16 Sept. issue of Science, there's a blurb about the recently released report of the National Academy of Sciences' Computer Science and Technology Board ("The National Challenge in Computer Science and Technology," National Academy Press, Washington, DC, 1988). Just when you thought you had the blocks world figured out, something like this comes along. kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 c Their idea is to start a U.S. Big Science (computer science, that is) effort ala Japan. In addition to the usual clamoring for software IC's, fault tolerance, parallel processing and a million mips (ya, 10^12 ips), here's YOUR assignment: 1) A speaker-independent, continuous speech, multilingual real-time translation system. Make sure you don't mess up when the the speech is ambiguous, nongramatical, or a phrase is incomplete. Be sure to maintain speaker characteristics (what's Chinese sound like with a Texas accent?). As you may know, Japan is funding a 7 year effort at $120 million to put a neural-net in a telephone which accomplishes this feat for Japanese <-> English (it's a picture phone too, so part of the problem is to make lips sync with the speech, I guess). 2) Build a machine which can read a chapter of a physics text and kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 then answer the questions at the end. At least this one can be done by some humans! While I'm sure some interesting results would come from attempting such projects, these sorts of things could probably be done sooner by tossing out ethical considerations and cloning humanoids. If we were to accept the premise that Big Science is a Good Thing, what should our one big goal? I personally think an effort to develop a true man-machine interface (i.e., neural i/o) would be the most beneficial in terms of both applications and as a driving force for several disciplines. -- Doug Salot || doug@feedme.UUCP || ...{zardoz,dhw68k,conexch}!feedme!doug Raisin Deters - Breakfast never tasted so good. ------------------------------ lips sync with the speech, I guess). 2) Build a machine which can read a chapter of a physics text and kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93  Date: 23 Sep 88 13:39:57 GMT From: ndcheg!uceng!dmocsny@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (daniel mocsny) Subject: Re: Grand Challenges In article <123@feedme.UUCP>, doug@feedme.UUCP (Doug Salot) writes: [ goals for computer science ] > 2) Build a machine which can read a chapter of a physics text and > then answer the questions at the end. At least this one can be > done by some humans! > > While I'm sure some interesting results would come from attempting > such projects, these sorts of things could probably be done sooner > by tossing out ethical considerations and cloning humanoids. A machine that could digest a physics text and then answer questions Raisin Deters - Breakfast never tasted so good. ------------------------------ lips sync with the speech, I guess). 2) Build a machine which can read a chapter of a physics text and kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 about the material would be of atronomical value. Sure, humanoids can do this after a fashion, but they have at least three drawbacks: (1) Some are much better than others, and the really good ones are rare and thus expensive, (2) None are immortal or particularly speedy (which limits the amount of useful knowledge you can pack into one individual), (3) No matter how much the previous humanoids learn, the next one still has to start from scratch. We spend billions of dollars piling up research results. The result, which we call ``human knowledge,'' we inscribe on paper sheets and stack in libraries. ``Human knowledge'' is hardly monolithic. Instead we partition it arbitrarily and assign high-priced specialists to each piece. As a result, ``human knowledge'' is hardly available in any sort of general, meaningful sense. To find all the previous work relevant to a new problem is often quite an arduous task, especially kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 when it spans several disciplines (as it does with increasing frequency). I submit that our failure to provide ourselves with transparent, simple access to human knowledge stands as one of the leading impediments to human progress. We can't provide such access with a system that dates back to the days of square-rigged ships. In my own field (chemical process design) we had a problem (synthesizing heat recovery networks in process plants) that occupied scores of researchers from 1970-1985. Lots of people tried all sorts of approaches and eventually (after who knows how many grants, etc.) someone spotted some important analogies with some problems from Operations Research work of the '50's. We did have to develop some additional theory, but we could have saved a decade or so with a machine that ``knew'' the literature. Another example of an industrially significant problem in my field is this: given a target molecule and a list of available precursors, along with whatever data you can scrape together on possible chemical kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 reactions, find the best sequence of reactions to yield the target from the precursors. Chemists call this the design of chemical syntheses, and chemical engineers call it the reaction path synthesis problem. Since no general method exists to accurately predict the success of a chemical reaction, one must use experimental data. And the chemical literature contains references to literally millions of compounds and reactions, with more appearing every day. Researchers have constructed successful programs to solve these types of problems, but they suffer from a big drawback: no such program embodies enough knowledge of chemistry to be really useful. The programs have some elaborate methods to represent to represent reaction data, but these knowledge bases had to be hand-coded. Due to the chaos in the literature, no general method of compiling reaction data automatically has worked yet. Here we have an example of the literature containing information of enormous potential value, but it is effectively useless. If someone handed me a machine that could digest all (or at least large subsets) of the technical literature and then answer any kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 xquestion that was answerable from the literature, I could become a wealthy man in short order. I doubt that many of us can imagine how valuable such a device would be. I hope to live to see such a thing. Dan Mocsny ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 88 17:53:11 GMT From: ncar!tank!arthur!daryl@gatech.edu (Daryl McLaurine) Subject: Re: Grand Challenges On "Human Knowledge"... I am one of many people who makes a living by generation solutions to complex problems or tasks in a specific field by understanding the relationships between my field and many 'unrelated' fields of study. As the chemistry to be really useful. The programs have some elaborate methods to represent to represent reaction data, but these knowledge bases had to be hand-coded. Due to the chaos in the literature, no general method of compiling reaction data automatically has worked yet. Here we have an example of the literature containing information of enormous potential value, but it is effectively useless. If someone handed me a machine that could digest all (or at least large subsets) of the technical literature and then answer any kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 complexety of today's world increases, The realm of "Human Knowledge" cannot remain 'monolithic', to solve many problems, _especialy_ in AI, one must acquire the feel of the dynamic 'flow' of human experence and sense the conectives within. Few people are adept at this, and the ones who are, ether become _the_ leading edge of their field, or are called opon to consult for others by acting as that mythical construct that will 'understand' human experence on demand. In my field, both acedemic and profesinal, I strive to make systems that will acquire knowledge and make ,_AT BEST_, moderately simple corrila- tions in data that may point to solutions to a specified task. It is still the realm of the Human Investigator to take these suggestions and make a compl- ete analysis of them by drawing on his/her(?) own heurestic capability to arive at a solution. To this date, the most advanced construct I have seen, only does a type of informational investigative 'leg work', and rarly can it corr- alate facts that seem to be unrelated, but may actualy be ontological. (But, I am working on it ;-} ) It is true that the computer model of what we do kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 would be more effective for a research investigator, but the point to which we can program 'intuituitive knoledge' beyond simple relationships in pattern recognition is far off. The human in this equasionis still an unknown factor to itself (can YOU tell me how you think, and if you can, there are MANY cognitive sci. people [psycologists, AI researchers, etc] who want to talk to you...), and until we can solve the grand chalenge of knowing ourselves, our creations are little more than idiot savants (and bloody expencive ones at that!) -kill me, not my clients (Translated from the legalese...) ^ <{[-]}>----------------------------------------------------------------------- V Daryl McLaurine, Programmer/Analyst (Consultant) | Contact: | Home: 1-312-955-2803 (Voice M-F 7pm/1am) | Office: Computer Innovations 1-312-663-5930 (Voice M-F 9am/5pm) | daryl@arthur (or zaphod,daisy,neuro,zem,beeblebrox) .UChicago.edu tigative 'leg work', and rarly can it corr- alate facts that seem to be unrelated, but may actualy be ontological. (But, I am working on it ;-} ) It is true that the computer model of what we do kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 8==\*/========================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 88 05:33:07 GMT From: glacier!jbn@labrea.stanford.edu (John B. Nagle) Subject: Re: Grand Challenges The lesson of the last five years seems to be that throwing money at AI is not enormously productive. The promise of expert systems has not been fulfilled (I will refrain from quoting some of the promises today), the Japanese Fifth Generation effort has not resulted in any visible breakthroughs (although there are some who say that its real purpose was to divert American attention from the efforts of Hitachi and Fujitsu to move into the mainframe computer business), the DARPA/Army Tank Command autonomous land vehicle effort has resulted in vehicles that are bigger, ) | Office: Computer Innovations 1-312-663-5930 (Voice M-F 9am/5pm) | daryl@arthur (or zaphod,daisy,neuro,zem,beeblebrox) .UChicago.edu tigative 'leg work', and rarly can it corr- alate facts that seem to be unrelated, but may actualy be ontological. (But, I am working on it ;-} ) It is true that the computer model of what we do kfL AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #93 but just barely able to stay on a well-defined road on good days. What real progress there is doesn't seem to be coming from the big-bucks projects. People like Rod Brooks, Doug Lenat, and a few others seem to be makeing progress. But they're not part of the big-science system. I will not comment on why this is so, but it does, indeed, seem to be so. There are areas in which throwing money at the problem does work, but AI may not be one of them at this stage of our ignorance. John Nagle ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** fforts of Hitachi and Fujitsu to move into the mainframe computer business), the DARPA/Army Tank Command autonomous land vehicle effort has resulted in vehicles that are bigger, ) | Office: Computer Innovations 1-312-663-5930 (Voice M-F 9am/5pm) | daryl@arthur (or zaphod,daisy,neuro,zem,beeblebrox) .UChicago.edu tigative 'leg work', and rarly can it corr- alate facts that seem to be unrelated, but may actualy be ontological. (But, I am working on it ;-} ) It is true that the computer model of what we do kf-H3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from Thin Air---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Sep 88 19:19 EDT From: GORDON D. PUSCH Original_To: PHYBOARD,PUSCHGD Bill Smith in article <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> asks: >What law prevents energy from being directly converted into >neutrino/anti-neutrino pairs? > >If it could, I think it would be hard to find much energy in the form >of photons, etc. It depends on what you mean by "energy". "Pure energy" a-la _Star_Trek_ and Marvel Comics does not exist. "Energy" is an attribute or degree of freedom carried by the various "particles" or "fields" (there is no X-H3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from Thin AirBmeaningful distinction between the "field" and "particle" concepts anymore; "Particle Physics" and "Quantum Field Theory" have become synonomous). A photon is one such particle. Photons cannot transform *directly* into a neutrino-antineutrino pair because neutrinos (Enrico Fermi's term, meaning "little neutral ones") being electricly neutral, cannot couple to the electromagnetic field. If neutrinos are truely "massless" (i.e., have a zero "rest-mass") as photons are thought to be, it might be possible to procede though an intermediary that couples to both, e.g.: - - - - /////////////> neutrino ~~~~~~~~~~~~>* *%%%%%%%%%>* photon + + Z0 <\\\\\\\\\\\\\ anti-neutrino + + e+/e- "loop" X-H3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from Thin Air However this process will be very strongly suppressed, partly because of the electron and Z0's masses, but mostly kinimatically, because of lack of "phase-space": the two neutrinos must both be traveling in *exactly* the same direction as the initial photon, or energy and momentum conservation become impossible to satisfy simultaneuosly. This is still true if you allow any number of massless particles in the final state. If even a *single* massive particle appears in the final state, it becomes impossible, period (unless the photon actually *does* have a non-zero rest-mass, and furthermore, one which is larger than that of any of the final-state particles.) A photon may be transformed into anything else, so long as energy, momentum, and all other "additive" quantum numbers" are conserved, and if that "anything else" is capable of interacting with a photon. For example, I *cannot* turn a *single* photon (i.e., a photon in free space) into an electron-positron pair, because I cannot simultaneously X-H3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from Thin Airxconserve energy and momentum, even though this process conserves all the other additive quantum numbers. (Note: it is *NOT* because "mass" is conserved. It Isn't! It is because in Relativistic Quantum Theory, I must simultaneosly conserve *total* momentum, and *total* energy between reactants and products, and additionaly, each individual "physical" particle among the reactants and products must satisfy the "mass-shell" constraint: E^2 - |p|^2 * c^2 == m^2 * c^4 It is this constraint which makes it impossible for a *single* "massless" photon to decay into a pair of "massive" particles *in free space*. However if there are other particles around to interact with (such as another photon, or an atomic nucleus) then all the constraints may be satisfied, and the process is possible. (However that doesn't mean it must necessarily happen ... ) r example, I *cannot* turn a *single* photon (i.e., a photon in free space) into an electron-positron pair, because I cannot simultaneously X-H3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from Thin Air{ Virtual particles are particles which violate this constraint, but are otherwise identical to their "normal" analogues. They may never be directly observed, but must be transformed into "physical" particles before the interaction can be considered complete. Only "physical" particles are observable, or capable of carrying off energy and momentum from an interaction). Gordon D. Pusch | Try using ; if that doesn't Physics Dept., VPI&SU | work, try . (our Node-Name Blacksburg VA 24061 | got changed recently ... ) +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "... Engineers ... Always *changin'* things ... | | It's like a Dam' *Computer Center* in here ..." --- L.E. McCoy, M.D. | | | xample, I *cannot* turn a *single* photon (i.e., a photon in free space) into an electron-positron pair, because I cannot simultaneously X-H3PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from Thin Air| Q: How many System Programmers does it take to screw in a light-bulb? | | A: *ONE*; He holds the bulb, and the World revolves around him ... | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ -------------------------------- . Only "physical" particles are observable, or capable of carrying off energy and momentum from an interaction). Gordon D. Pusch | Try using ; if that doesn't Physics Dept., VPI&SU | work, try . (our Node-Name Blacksburg VA 24061 | got changed recently ... ) +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "... Engineers ... Always *changin'* things ... | | It's like a Dam' *Computer Center* in here ..." --- L.E. McCoy, M.D. | | | xample, I *cannot* turn a *single* photon (i.e., a photon in free space) into an electron-positron pair, because I cannot simultaneously XSkPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SN1987a (I think the first pos---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Sep 88 00:41:18 PDT From: FETZER%CCV.MFENET@NMFECC.ARPA Comment: From FETZER@CCV.MFENET on 27-SEP-1988 00:40:25.90 PDT I'm looking for information/references on SN1987A, especially things related to the neutrino aspects of the super nova. I.e., upper limits on neutrino mass, etc. I've scanned the Phys. Rev.'s in '87, and the related Physics Today's of that same year, but haven't found anything more recent on the subject. Any and all qualified responses will be greatly appreciated!! Mike FETZER@NMFECC.arpa FETZER%ccc.MfeNet@SDSC.BITnet ISkPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SN1987a (I think the first pos -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 18:46:12 GMT From: ut-emx!ethan@cs.utexas.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) Article-I.D.: <6407@ut-emx.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1153@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1153@sri-arpa.ARPA>, FETZER%CCV.MFENET@NMFECC.ARPA writes: > I'm looking for information/references on SN1987A, especially > things related to the neutrino aspects of the super nova. I.e., > upper limits on neutrino mass, etc. > Mail didn't work. I have a vague memory of seeing a summary of constraints on particle properties in a stack of preprints from the astrophysics group at Fermilab. I can`t remember the authors, but I would start by looking for something by Schramm, Turner, or Kolb. ISkPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SN1987a (I think the first posk Hope this helps. -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU -------------------------------- o the neutrino aspects of the super nova. I.e., > upper limits on neutrino mass, etc. > Mail didn't work. I have a vague memory of seeing a summary of constraints on particle properties in a stack of preprints from the astrophysics group at Fermilab. I can`t remember the authors, but I would start by looking for something by Schramm, Turner, or Kolb. ISBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM ( Originally re Turing machine---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Sep 88 22:19:51 GMT From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Michael Rogers) Article-I.D.: <48@maths.tcd.ie> In <29891@bbn.COM> mesard@bbn.com states: > seem--to the uninformed eye--random and unpredictable. But given the > proper information [note I don't say observational powers and thus avoid > the Uncertainty Principle], one can exactly predict the paths that the > ball will take. > but the principle is still the same. We may never have enough > information to exactly predict events in the universe, or even a > reasonable subregion thereof. But the inability to make the exact > calculation doesn't mean that the universe isn't exactly, completely > deterministic. 3 SBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM ( Originally re Turing machine This seems to me to be flagrantly illogical. *How* can one obtain the proper information without using one's observational powers? Forgive me restating, but I am worried that I am missing some extremely simple point, probably due to this late hour of the night :-) *If* one can't predict events in a subregion, and will never be able to, and will get paradox's if one trys, then *how* can the Universe be thus deterministic. One would need to have ( shudder ) hidden variables. But then in comes Bell's wonderful theorem. There may indeed be hidden variables, but they are as well hid as the luminiferous aether or the Central Fire. I shall have to sleep over this. -- Mike Rogers, ...!{seismo,ihnp4,decvax}!mcvax!ukc!tcdmath!mike 39.16 Trinity College, Dublin University, ...staccato signals of constant information... Dublin 2, Ireland. Simon. 3 SBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM ( Originally re Turing machine& -------------------------------- illogical. *How* can one obtain the proper information without using one's observational powers? Forgive me restating, but I am worried that I am missing some extremely simple point, probably due to this late hour of the night :-) *If* one can't predict events in a subregion, and will never be able to, and will get paradox's if one trys, then *how* can the Universe be thus deterministic. One would need to have ( shudder ) hidden variables. But then in comes Bell's wonderful theorem. There may indeed be hidden variables, but they are as well hid as the luminiferous aether or the Central Fire. I shall have to sleep over this. -- Mike Rogers, ...!{seismo,ihnp4,decvax}!mcvax!ukc!tcdmath!mike 39.16 Trinity College, Dublin University, ...staccato signals of constant information... Dublin 2, Ireland. Simon. 3 Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Sep 88 11:19:01 GMT From: valley!stan@Rand.ORG (Stanley L. Kameny) Article-I.D.: <40.UUL1.2#239@valley.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <8667@watdragon.waterloo.edu> > From: jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) > Subject: Re: Making Neutrinos from thin air In article: <8667@watdragon.waterloo.edu> jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) writes: > In article <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> wsmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > > > >What law prevents energy from being directly converted into > >neutrino/anti-neutrino pairs? > > > >If it could, I think it would be hard to find much energy in the form > >of photons, etc. 8#Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airm> > > > Neutrinos have a specific rest energy, just as electrons and protons do. > (If memory serves me right, there are two types of neutrinos, each with > differing rest energies.) To spontaneously create a neutrino/anti-neutrino > pair from would require a photon with exactly twice the rest energy of a > neutrino. Sorry, Jim, whatever neutrinos may have, such as energy, momentum, and spin, parity and any other properties, rest energy isn't one that has been detected to date. Physicists have conducted countless experiments to detect neutrino mass, if it exists, because it would help to explain other calculations, particularly those associated with missing mass, but it has never been found. (I forget what the current upper bound is, but remember that it is _very_ small!) Stan Kameny valley!stan@rand.org {sdcrdcf!}randvax!valley!stan 8#Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air Stan Kameny valley!stan@rand.org {sm.unisys.com!}randvax!valley!stan 14314 Hatteras Street, Van Nuys, CA 91401 (818)-994-7767 Prends-moi tel que je suis. Ricketts House motto (Caltech) Honi soit qui mal y pense. Order of the Garter motto (GB) -------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 14:30:29 GMT From: zody@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU Article-I.D.: <16946@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <14661@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In article <14661@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: >And it is possible for a photon to interact weakly. That's what uni- ass, but it has never been found. (I forget what the current upper bound is, but remember that it is _very_ small!) Stan Kameny valley!stan@rand.org {sdcrdcf!}randvax!valley!stan 8#Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air>fication is all about. > >ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 This is not true. The photon only interacts electromagnetically. Because the W's are charged and the Z0 has a magnetic moment, photons couple to them electromagnetically. The only way to go from photons to nuetrinos is to go through a massive gauge boson intermediate state, and hence the amplitude is down by a factor of (Mass Nuetrino)/(Mass Boson). The reason photons don't directly interact weakly is that the photon and the Z0 are both linear combinations of U(1) and SU(2) intermediate bosons in the theory with unbroken symetry. When the symetry is broken, the photon is chosen to be the gauge boson of the remaining U(1) EM symetry, while the Z0 is orthoganal to this. This requires the photon be massless. Both the photon and the Z0 are neutral to the original SU(2) symetry. Charles Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu 8#Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air -------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 17:43:52 GMT From: tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) Article-I.D.: <8794@ihlpb.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <16939@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> Just a small technical correction to an excellent posting by Charley Dunn: < In addition, a real photon can not convert directly to nuetrinos through _any_ < process by angular momentum conservation. Energy momentum conservation tells < you that the members of the neutrino pair would have to both be travelling in < the direction of the photon. But, neutrinos are all left handed and anti- < neutrinos are all right handed. Thus the "z" component of the helicity of the < pair is zero. The photon, being massless, has no zero helicity state, and so This requires the photon be massless. Both the photon and the Z0 are neutral to the original SU(2) symetry. Charles Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu 8#Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airb< the interaction can't happen. (If neutrinos have a small mass then there < could be some probability of this process. At the very largest, though, this < would go like (mass of neutrino/mass of Z)^2 compared to other interactions < which is a very tiny rate...) ------ Actually, an isolated real photon cannot convert directly to massive neutrinos either. This is due simply to energy momentum conservation. If the neutrinos have mass, there is a Lorentz frame in which the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, i. e., the photon must have a rest frame. Assuming the photon is truly massless, it has no rest frame. Thus the decay is impossible. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan -------------------------------- to the original SU(2) symetry. Charles Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu 8#Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airDate: 27 Sep 88 02:51:35 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14725@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <14661@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <16946@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> I am confused. In article <16946@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU>, zody@vax5 writes: >In article <14661@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: >>And it is possible for a photon to interact weakly. That's what uni- >>fication is all about. >This is not true. The photon only interacts electromagnetically. Because the >W's are charged and the Z0 has a magnetic moment, photons couple to them >electromagnetically. The only way to go from photons to nuetrinos is to go Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan -------------------------------- to the original SU(2) symetry. Charles Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu 8#Sk`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air>through a massive gauge boson intermediate state, and hence the amplitude >is down by a factor of (Mass Nuetrino)/(Mass Boson). So maybe my knowledge of physics jargon *is* the pits. Tell me: is this not what weak interaction is now considered to *mean*? Going from A => B via W/Z/H?'s??? Thanks for any clarification. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 -------------------------------- possible for a photon to interact weakly. That's what uni- >>fication is all about. >This is not true. The photon only interacts electromagnetically. Because the >W's are charged and the Z0 has a magnetic moment, photons couple to them >electromagnetically. The only way to go from photons to nuetrinos is to go Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan -------------------------------- to the original SU(2) symetry. Charles Dunn dunn@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu 8#SH PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 12:35:30 GMT From: mww@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Wade) Article-I.D.: <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> SDI research seems to be directed toward methods of destroying missiles during their boost phase when they are high in the atmosphere. Does this imply that a simple way to counter space-based defenses is to use submarine-launched cruise missiles fired from 10 miles offshore ? -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 00:40:09 GMT From: att!chinet!mcdchg!clyde!wayback!emh@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (E.M.Hummel) Article-I.D.: <1443@wayback.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM>  \SH PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles  In article <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> mww@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Wade) writes: >SDI research seems to be directed toward methods of destroying missiles >during their boost phase when they are high in the atmosphere. Does >this imply that a simple way to counter space-based defenses is to use >submarine-launched cruise missiles fired from 10 miles offshore ? SDI has included research into other phases of ICBM trajectories than just boost phase. I believe, for defense against low altitude platforms and short range ballistic missiles a research program was defined called ADI. People seem to have some strange ideas about what SDI is. How is it usually defined anyway? Is SDI anything funded by SDIO? -- Ed Hummel  \SH PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles  -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 04:48:23 GMT From: pglask@umbio.MIAMI.EDU (Peter Glaskowsky) Article-I.D.: <648@umbio.MIAMI.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> in article <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM>, mww@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Wade) says: > > SDI research seems to be directed toward methods of destroying missiles > during their boost phase when they are high in the atmosphere. Does > this imply that a simple way to counter space-based defenses is to use > submarine-launched cruise missiles fired from 10 miles offshore ? Cruise missiles are not a viable substitute for ICBM's because they take so long to arrive on target. A successful first strike depends on taking out the other guy's strategic arsenal before he can use it.  \SH PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles f But this does bring up a question, a real physics-related question :-): SDIO talks about ground-based lasers which will use orbiting mirrors to refocus the beam after atmospheric distortion, and then aim it at targets in the upper atmosphere and in orbit. I can understand how this works-- throw a beam, analyze the distortion, then compensate for it. This seems to require sensors on the "other side" of the atmosphere from the laser. The question is, does this then preclude anyone from using _orbiting_ lasers to effectively attack small ground-based targets? Without any way to tell how the beam is being distorted by the atmosphere, getting a tight spot on the target would be unlikely, if at all possible. If you can't use orbiting lasers, I wouldn't think you could bounce ground-based laser beams off orbiting mirrors, either. This seems to  \SH PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles contradict some of the claims made by anti-SDI scientists who warn that SDI could be used as an offensive weapon against cities, aircraft, etc. While in general I support SDI, and have in the past argued that SDI can't be used this way, I wouldn't want to be doing so erroneously. So how about it? (Please hurry replies. Moving to Ft. Worth on October 3 to EE for GD.) -- . png | Sysop, the John Galt Line TBBS: 305-235-1645. | ARPA: pglask%umbio.miami.edu@umigw.miami.edu | uucp: uunet!gould!umbio!pglask -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 12:09:42 GMT ght spot on the target would be unlikely, if at all possible. If you can't use orbiting lasers, I wouldn't think you could bounce ground-based laser beams off orbiting mirrors, either. This seems to  \SH PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles |From: rochester!bbn!aoa!carl@Cornell.ARPA (Carl Witthoft) Article-I.D.: <440@aoa.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> In article <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> mww@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Wade) writes: > >SDI research seems to be directed toward methods of destroying missiles >during their boost phase when they are high in the atmosphere. Does >this imply that a simple way to counter space-based defenses is to use >submarine-launched cruise missiles fired from 10 miles offshore ? Yes, to the extent that ANY attack from short range is difficult to defend. You could ask the same question, more or less, about space- based defense against a suitcase bomb hand-carried into the pentagon (no comments, please :=) ). If we believe the Navy, subs even vaguely close to our shores get annoyed/attacked and convinced to go away. Depends on recent quality of SOSUS, I suppose...  \SH PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles ) -- Alix' Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) " Axis-navigo, ergo sum." {ll-xn,spdcc,...}!bbn!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201 "disclaimer? I'm not a doctor, but I do have a Master's Degree in Science!" -------------------------------- st phase when they are high in the atmosphere. Does >this imply that a simple way to counter space-based defenses is to use >submarine-launched cruise missiles fired from 10 miles offshore ? Yes, to the extent that ANY attack from short range is difficult to defend. You could ask the same question, more or less, about space- based defense against a suitcase bomb hand-carried into the pentagon (no comments, please :=) ). If we believe the Navy, subs even vaguely close to our shores get annoyed/attacked and convinced to go away. Depends on recent quality of SOSUS, I suppose...  \ScPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Wanted: WHAT'S NEW from 9/16/8Q---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 12:57:04 GMT From: husc6!mailrus!uflorida!gatech!gt-eedsp!drabik@unix.SRI.COM (Timothy J. Drabik) Article-I.D.: <466@gt-eedsp.UUCP> Will someone please send me the 9/16/88 edition of Dr. Park's excellent weekly newsletter? Our site has not received it. ...Or maybe it's being blocked by worried elements of the military-industrial complex :). Tim Drabik drabik%gteedsp@gatech.gatech.edu drabik@gteedsp.gatech.edu -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 02:38:05 GMT W ScPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Wanted: WHAT'S NEW from 9/16/8From: NU107968@NDSUVM1.BITNET (WILEY LYLE PARKER) Article-I.D.: <1375NU107968@NDSUVM1> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <466@gt-eedsp.UUCP> ditto for ndsuvm1. what hapened to 9/16/88 what's new? -------------------------------- please send me the 9/16/88 edition of Dr. Park's excellent weekly newsletter? Our site has not received it. ...Or maybe it's being blocked by worried elements of the military-industrial complex :). Tim Drabik drabik%gteedsp@gatech.gatech.edu drabik@gteedsp.gatech.edu -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 02:38:05 GMT W SR:PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 17:37:01 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <2009@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1991@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <39.UUL1.2#239@valley.UUCP> Stanley L. Kameny writes: >Yes, Jim, you have missed something very important in the action of a >lightning rod. You overlooked the corona discharge [] Actually, research has shown that while this phenomenon does tend to de-fuse a local portion of the atmosphere, it is by no means a large enough effect to neutralize a cloud's electrostatic potential. It is true that during times where the potential is barely at the threshhold of a lightning strike, that a lightning rod, by virtue of the corona effect, MAY produce a zone that is less conducive to the strike. This senario is VERY RARE. By far, most of the lightning storms generate Q\ SR:PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff lfields that totally swamp out any beneficial effect that the `corona discharge' phenomenon provides. I agree with all of the people who posted `corrections' about this, but believe me, if the corona disharge effect was large enough to prevent a lightning strike, then lightning rods would never get struck. And there's no way that a lightning rod (or several) can neutralize a clouds potential. To the person who wrote about the lightning bolt that stopped three feet above the rod: This is indicative of a poorly grounded lightning arrestor system (at least where this one rod is concerned). Lightning is VERY sensitive to twists and turns in a protection system. We would have to know much more about that particular strike before we could determine what caused it to act in this peculiar manner.... Lightning is truly the `Dancing Flame'. Cheers! he lightning storms generate Q\ SR:PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 17:59:39 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <2010@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <44400038@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk> In article <44400038@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk> william@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk writes: >I'm afraid not. The bleeder valve analogy is good. The primary purpose of >a lightning conductor is to PREVENT lightning strikes... Again, research shows this thinking to be archaic. As I posted earlier, before we could determine what caused it to act in this peculiar manner.... Lightning is truly the `Dancing Flame'. Cheers! he lightning storms generate Q\ SR:PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff }the corona effect is swamped out by the huge potentials in the thundercell. It doesn't mean that the effect is not there......it just means that it's too small a factor to be of any use (traditional thinking led us to believe otherwise. But when lightning strike frequency statistics are analyzed, it becomes apparent that the number of strikes before and after the installation of a lightning protection system in a given area are statistically equivalent. The difference being that the lightning hit the rods and not the protected area. In other words: the lightning rods did nothing to reduce the frequency of lightning strikes over long periods (a year)). Therefore, I would say that....The primary purpose of a lightning conductor is to CONDUCT lightning. Just like the name sez. Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full ms generate Q\ SR:PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 15:57:53 GMT From: rochester!kodak!ornitz@Rutgers.EDU (barry ornitz) Article-I.D.: <1434@kodak.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1991@iscuva.ISCS.COM> <39.UUL1.2#239@valley.UUCP> <2009@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In article <2009@iscuva.ISCS.COM> jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) writes: > >To the person who wrote about the lightning bolt that stopped three feet >above the rod: This is indicative of a poorly grounded lightning arrestor >system (at least where this one rod is concerned). Lightning is VERY sensitive >to twists and turns in a protection system. We would have to know much Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full ms generate Q\ SR:PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff $>more about that particular strike before we could determine what caused it >to act in this peculiar manner.... Lightning is truly the `Dancing Flame'. I do not have the reference handy, but in an article published in the Journal of the Franklin Institute several years ago, it was shown that a pointed tip for a lightning rod was not optimum. An elliptically rounded point was better. According to statistical information, most lightning rods are hit several feet below the tip. The reasons for this are explained in the article. Mathematical simulations agreed with this explanation. Unless the twists and turns mention- ed above were between the tip and the lower portion of the rod, this would have little effect on where the rod was struck. Lightning rods and grounding systems should always be designed for minimum inductance. Barry ----------------- | ___ ________ | | | / / | | Dr. Barry L. Ornitz UUCP:...!rochester!kodak!ornitz | | / / | | Eastman Kodak Company Q\ SR:PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff | |< < K O D A K| | Eastman Chemicals Division Research Laboratories | | \ \ | | P. O. Box 1972 | |__\ \________| | Kingsport, TN 37662 615/229-4904 | | ----------------- -------------------------------- n Institute several years ago, it was shown that a pointed tip for a lightning rod was not optimum. An elliptically rounded point was better. According to statistical information, most lightning rods are hit several feet below the tip. The reasons for this are explained in the article. Mathematical simulations agreed with this explanation. Unless the twists and turns mention- ed above were between the tip and the lower portion of the rod, this would have little effect on where the rod was struck. Lightning rods and grounding systems should always be designed for minimum inductance. Barry ----------------- | ___ ________ | | | / / | | Dr. Barry L. Ornitz UUCP:...!rochester!kodak!ornitz | | / / | | Eastman Kodak Company Q\ TCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... L---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 10:20:00 GMT From: william@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk Article-I.D.: <44400040@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> > A whole bunch of that "trillion dollars" goes into the pockets of the > R&D people and support people as salaries. The government found an > excuse to fund hundreds of thousands of jobs for us, many being > high level R&D work. Is that not *only* what it is though - an excuse? I believe that good R&D has got to be good for a country, primarily economically, so SDI seems an unlikely way of getting technological benefits through to the civilians. The thing is, the jobs are not the main motivation behind SDI, and SDI is liable to eat loads of dosh in putting satellites up, which consumes "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Eshuttle-time, so other scientific projects get delayed. I can't imagine the chiefs sitting around the table saying "Jeez, how are we going to keep all those researchers busy for the next 15 years?". More likely: "Shit, this means we're going to have to get more researchers". > version of welfare. (Before anyone says "The homeless can't do SDI > research!", think about all those hamburgers that will have to be > flipped for the researchers.) Assuming a) research increases hamburger intake. I think I agree on that, but is the increase economically significant? I reckon I only eat about 2 extra burgers a week when I have a tight schedule. :-> b) The first offshoot of SDI isn't a hamburger flipping machine. I guess all this discussion is valid for any kind of government spending situation. sumes "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... U Question: As the money to fund SDI comes out of the economy in the first place, does it make any difference how the money is spent as long as it isn't hoarded? ... Bill ************************************************************************ Bill Witts, CS Dept. * Nel Mezzo del cammin di nostra vita UCL, London, Errrp * mi ritrovai per una selva oscura william@cs.ucl.ac.uk * che la diritta via era smarrita. ************************************************************************ -------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 20:55:39 GMT reckon I only eat about 2 extra burgers a week when I have a tight schedule. :-> b) The first offshoot of SDI isn't a hamburger flipping machine. I guess all this discussion is valid for any kind of government spending situation. sumes "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... `From: fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) Article-I.D.: <70223@sun.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1147@sri-arpa.ARPA> In article <1147@sri-arpa.ARPA>, tcora@ARDEC.ARPA writes: > > > Numbers I've heard (please don't ask for refernces) say we have enuf nukes > to wipe out the world several tens of times over. Maybe even hundreds. So, > say we can do 40X world destruction. (40WD). If we block 30% with SDI, that > leaves only 28WD. Golly, gee. I like those odds. Escalation begets > escalation. Doesn't matter what you call it. But that's just my opinion. The higher estimates at least appear to be counting *all* the produced bangers. A lot of them are unlikely to actually join the party due to a lack of delivery vehicles. (How many Honest Johns are there stashed away in warehouses? Wanna lay bets on how many oculd be made to work? "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... The most reasonable scenarios I've seen on SDI operation state that it won't shield the defender so much as to make the attacker unsure of wiping out the opponents conterforce. And none of them work all that well unless the operational warhead numbers come down quite a bit. -------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 21:18:41 GMT From: rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) Article-I.D.: <2455@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> <8058@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In article <8058@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (David Palmer) writes: of them are unlikely to actually join the party due to a lack of delivery vehicles. (How many Honest Johns are there stashed away in warehouses? Wanna lay bets on how many oculd be made to work? "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... z>In article <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) writes: >< Why we need SDI research: Republican welfare for technologists -- trickle > >< down to the masses. Science and tech development > >> SDI research will certainly do just as much for us. Rail gun research >> is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written >> up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find >> the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed >> that the relativity theorists were wrong in at least this case.) > >SAY WHAT? > >If this is so, then someone is going to get a Nobel in a month or two for it. >Why wasn't I informed? Why are scientific journals trying to cover this >up? Was the technology to discover this unearthed in an ancient Mayan >spacecraft? Enquiring minds want to know. > "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... >Seriously, what is this? If relativity is wrong, I want to get to work >on an FTL drive. I was afraid this would happen, so I found my clippings. The research was done at MIT by Peter Graneau of Northeastern University. Perhaps someone there can shed some more light. Here are some small excerpts from the EET articles. >From Electronic Engineering Times, April 6, 1987, page 49 "RAILGUN RESEARCH SHOOTS HOLES IN LORENTZ'S THEORY Futuristic weaponry being developed for defense programs like SDI may end up shooting more holes in physical theory than in enemy missiles. The Lorentz force law ... has become a casualty of electromagnetic railgun research. ... or it. >Why wasn't I informed? Why are scientific journals trying to cover this >up? Was the technology to discover this unearthed in an ancient Mayan >spacecraft? Enquiring minds want to know. > "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  The new electromagnetic rubric is spelled out in a forthcoming paper being published by the British Institute of Physics titled "Railgun Recoil and Relativity." Graneau's explanation may send some minor shock waves through the scientific community. His research rescues modern theory with a forgotten formula of Ampere. At the same time it shows that the theory of relativity has some unexpected limitations. ...." The article lists a couple other discrepancies between theory and experiment, and ends, "Possibly more revisions of electromagnetic theory are pending." >From EET, Sept 14, 1987, page 58 "ANOMALIES IN ELECTROMAGNETIC LAW SPUR DEBATE "It is important to realize that the mismatch between theory and observation is not some barely descernible quantity. [It] involves factors in the thousands." So says Peter Graneau, a physicist at Northeastern University's Center of Electromagnitcs Reasearch, commenting on anomalies in Lorentz's "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... force law. The situation is more than academic bickering, since the formaula is one of the pillers of relativity theory... "Since the turn of the century there has been a lot of first class experimental and theoretical work that reveals problems with relativistic electromagnetic theory, but this work has been virtually ignored by the mainstream physicist," comments Domina Spencer, and electromagnetic theorist at the University of Connecticut.... By the end of the 19th century, experimental work turned up a long list of anomalies that none of the existing theories could reconcile. The radical revisions of physical theory represented by relativity and quantum mechanics seemed to provide a solution. Now in the latter decades of the 20th century, experimental results that cannot be explained by accepted theory are beginning to pile up again." >From EET, Dec 28, 1987, page 21 "ELECTRONS AND CONDUCTION: NOT SO SIMPLE AFTER ALL Lorentz's "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... r LORENTZ NO LONGER GIVES ANSWERS Experiments with an electormagnetic-impulse pendulum conducted by Graneau, and independantly ty P.T. Pappas, a Greek physicst, have revealed electro- mechanical forces that could not exist according to the relativistic Lorentz force law. And this is only one of a growing list of experiments that contradict modern electromagnetic theory." -- Rick Wilson rick@tekfdi.TEK.COM ..{ucbvax,uw-beaver}!tektronix!tekfdi!rick -------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 22:45:31 GMT From: ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) physical theory represented by relativity and quantum mechanics seemed to provide a solution. Now in the latter decades of the 20th century, experimental results that cannot be explained by accepted theory are beginning to pile up again." >From EET, Dec 28, 1987, page 21 "ELECTRONS AND CONDUCTION: NOT SO SIMPLE AFTER ALL Lorentz's "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Article-I.D.: <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> In article <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> heiser@iis.UUCP (Gernot Heiser) writes: >Gimme a break! Only someone with no idea what nuclear war means can utter such >nonsense! Switzerland reputedly has the world's best civil defence system >(including shelter space for more than 95% of the population, that is far more >than what the Sowjets or any other country is capable of). > If you insist on MAD, consider this: What if the Soviets decide that they can destroy most of our retailiatory capacity before it is launched? They might beleive, during a crisis, that nuclear war is impending, and attack at a weak moment for the US. (Aurora Borealis totally blinds our early warning sensors.) How could we repsond with full z's "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... force if they launched during the Northern Lights? By the time we would find out that their missiles are coming, our silos would be craters. True, there are still SLBMs and some cruise missiles, that is why they have a civil defense. Without SDI the US is very vulnerable to such a situation. >> SDI has the potential to make nuclear missiles obselete, thus >>saving immense amounts of money that now go to weapons production >>and maintainance. > >A similiar rationale lay behind the buildup of American strategic nuclear >forces after WW 2: the believe that nuclear deterrence was cheaper than >conventional armies. One more believe that ended up on the garbage heap of >history. > our retailiatory capacity before it is launched? They might beleive, during a crisis, that nuclear war is impending, and attack at a weak moment for the US. (Aurora Borealis totally blinds our early warning sensors.) How could we repsond with full z's "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  Well, how many major wars have we been involved in? ZERO. The only major international war (not a civil war) is the Iran-Iraq war, which will hopefully be de-escalating now. >By the way, the APS study showed that Physics and technology are orders of >magnitude off SDI demands. Surprised that Physicists tend to be against SDI? >SDI will be a major sink of money that could be better used elsewhere until >even politicians will realise that it's bogus. Don't count on the spinoffs. >Most results of SDI research will be classified, lots of it will be far too >specialized to be of use in peaceful research. Half the money put into regular >research will produce much more benefits for everyone - with far less danger >to everyone. By the way, other studies have proven the opposite. The Soviets certainly think that an SDI-like system is highly feasible. There is nothing that we could do to make the Soviets proceed faster with their full z's "Y CTCPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, facilities, etc. "Physicists" are not against SDI, some physicists are. I think that we can "count" to some extent on spinoffs, when has such research not produced any spinoffs? I wish that SDI development were not necessary, but it is. Unfortunately there are people who want to use violence to acheive domaination (or whatever); we must do our best to defend ourselves and to neutralize our enemies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu 234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner Cambridge, MA 02139 -------------------------------- By the way, other studies have proven the opposite. The Soviets certainly think that an SDI-like system is highly feasible. There is nothing that we could do to make the Soviets proceed faster with their full z's "Y CT@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 21:16:33 GMT From: fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) Article-I.D.: <70233@sun.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1145@sri-arpa.ARPA> <69658@sun.uucp> <1065@bucket.UUCP> In article <1065@bucket.UUCP>, leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: > In article <69658@sun.uucp> fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes: > > <*SIGH*> > In the real world it only take *one* side to start a war (nuclear or otherwise) > There are only a few ways to convince them not to. > 1. Make their attacks unlikely to succeed (defnse) > 2. Make them certain that *you* will finish any fight that *they* start %T@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Star Wars K> (offense) > 3. Convince them that they don't want to attack you (diplomacy) [ darn file-clipping editors....] ...how better to avoid nuclear war than to make the outcome of starting one completely uncertain (unless you can be sure that your starting one will result in no damage to the attackee and everything *he* sends in retaliation works perfectly...which isn't likely yet.) If it's not likely that you can get away with playing the game, maybe you won't. I'm in Mr. Erickson's boat (even if such wasn't originally clear). -------------------------------- nly a few ways to convince them not to. > 1. Make their attacks unlikely to succeed (defnse) > 2. Make them certain that *you* will finish any fight that *they* start %TdPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Dr. William Goddard and Superc>---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 15:44:32 GMT From: nrl-cmf!cmcl2!phri!cooper!dasys1!tbetz@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Tom Betz) Article-I.D.: <6651@dasys1.UUCP> I heard an NPR report today about a paper submitted to the American Chemical Society convention yesterday by a Dr. William Goddard that contained a mathematical formula he had developed from first principles that predicts the superconducting behavior of all compounds, including the temperatures at which they will become superconducting. According to the report, Dr. Goddard has tested his formula against all known superconductors and come up with the correct results; furthermore, he has predicted that the best we can do using the current copper oxide compounds would be a -1 degree ( TdPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Dr. William Goddard and SupercFahrenheit superconductor, but using copper sulfides, we should be able to come up with a superconductor that works around 100 degrees Celsius. Can anyone, perhaps some folks returning from the convention, fill us all in on some of the details? Who's going to work on testing this formula? It sounds pretty damn exciting, based on the comments from other chemists quoted in the NPR report. -- "If I found the truth I would tell you |Tom Betz and you would have me shot." |ZCNY, Yonkers, NY 10701-2509 -- Carlos Fuentes -- |UUCP: tbetz@dasys1.UUCP or "What is truth?" -- Johnny Cash | ...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!tbetz -------------------------------- we can do using the current copper oxide compounds would be a -1 degree ( TPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain G---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 16:41:28 GMT From: frankb@hpsad.HP.COM (Frank Ball) Article-I.D.: <1720001@hpsad.HP.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> *I recall reading that the main parameter associated with NOX emissions was *the engine compression ratio, i.e. pressure rather than temperature. They *probably both matter. I also recall that the EPA made efforts to limit *compression ratios for this reason at a time when high compression meant *high performance. I further recall that diesel engines have necessarily *higher compression ratios (the mixture is compressed until it ignites) and *thus produce much more NOX than spark ignited gasoline engines. Higher compression ratios result in higher temperatures. Remember the gas law: PV=nRT *ِ@TPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain p *I believe that higher compression ratios generally reduce CO and *hydrocarbon emissions in gasoline engines and improve efficiency and thus *would seem desirable except for increased NOX production. The advantage *of the catalytic converter may have been that it allowed the compression *ratio to be reduced while still keeping CO and hydrocarbon emissions *down. Engine efficiency was certainly also a concern although I'm not *sure how it fits in. Efficiency was traded off in an effort to reduce NOX emmisions. FrankB -------------------------------- ratios (the mixture is compressed until it ignites) and *thus produce much more NOX than spark ignited gasoline engines. Higher compression ratios result in higher temperatures. Remember the gas law: PV=nRT *ِ@yTHEORYNET ian@PSUVAX1.CS.PSU.EDU request for paper ;Does anybody out there have a copy of Chung and Ravikumar's paper "On the size of test sets for sorting and related problems"? The only reference for it that I have is "submitted for publication", which does not give a lot of information. I have asked the authors to send me a copy at least 4 times by mail and at least 5 times by telephone. I've lost track of how long it has been, but it has been at least since February. Ravikumar has solemnly promised to send me a copy "next week" several times. My patience is wearing thin. I have put off doing this as long as possible, but I can see no alternative. Surely SOMEBODY must have a copy of this paper. If you have a copy that you can send me, please reply by email. Ian. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yTHEORYNET ian@PSUVAX1.CS.PSU.EDU request for paper Ian Parberry ian@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ian@psuvax1.BITNET ian@psuvax1.UUCP (814) 863-3600 Dept of Comp Sci, 333 Whitmore Lab, Penn State Univ, University Park, Pa 16802 which does not give a lot of information. I have asked the authors to send me a copy at least 4 times by mail and at least 5 times by telephone. I've lost track of how long it has been, but it has been at least since February. Ravikumar has solemnly promised to send me a copy "next week" several times. My patience is wearing thin. I have put off doing this as long as possible, but I can see no alternative. Surely SOMEBODY must have a copy of this paper. If you have a copy that you can send me, please reply by email. Ian. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- % PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 14:51:25 GMT From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt) Article-I.D.: <1971@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> In article <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> mww@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Wade) writes: } }SDI research seems to be directed toward methods of destroying missiles }during their boost phase when they are high in the atmosphere. Does }this imply that a simple way to counter space-based defenses is to use }submarine-launched cruise missiles fired from 10 miles offshore ? As a personal opinion, I am inclined to believe that the submarine- launched cruise missles would be somewhat farther away than 10 miles. ٩R % PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles Like in the med... And you are not very likely to accidently shoot a cruise missle from a submarine by accident, much less likely than an icbm. So SDI would be safer in perventing a massive retaliation against an accidental launch. There are other ways to get slcm's... Disclaimer: Individuals have opinions, organizations have policy. Therefore, these opinions are mine and not any organizations! Q.E.D. jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu 128.244.65.5 (James W. Meritt) -------------------------------- hed cruise missiles fired from 10 miles offshore ? As a personal opinion, I am inclined to believe that the submarine- launched cruise missles would be somewhat farther away than 10 miles. ٩R ,PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 19:01:11 GMT From: oconnor@nuke.steinmetz (Dennis M. O'Connor) Article-I.D.: <12253@steinmetz.ge.com> In-Reply-To: Article(s) An article by jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) says: ] J Storrs Hall writes: ] >Actually [lightning rods] do prevent lightning by sucking (or spraying, ] >depending on your definition) charge from the air the way a bleeder valve ] >can prevent a boiler explosion. ] > ] >This is why they are sharpened. ] > ] >--JoSH ] ] Actually, the reason why they are sharpened is to provide the highest ۴lG,PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ] concentration of positive ions, i.e. #ions/cubic unit, in an attempt ] to `lure' the lightning to it, rather than some other place within the ] protected area. It's true that positive ions `spray' from the point. ] This is due to their high concentration and the hugh electrostatic field ] generated by the thundercell above. This, however, serves to ATTRACT ] the lightning because a strong positive streamer is able to leap upward ] to meet the stepped leader coming out of the cloud. Remember B. Franklin's ] words, "[lightning] being *attracted* to the points [of the lightning rod], ] and passing through the metal without hurting anything". ] ] Cheers! ] Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full B. Franklin was wrong. Try some more recent research, like Steinmetz. :-) It's thought today that the major benefit of lightning rods is the prevention of lightning bolts by dissipation of accumulated charge. ۴lG,PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff Research in lightning rods is tending towars structures with lots and lots of sharp points. Maybe that's why leaves on trees have points on them. It's certainly why you shouldn't go horse-back riding in a thunderstorm : horses are great for collecting a charge. Data for "representative" lightning, from CRC's Handbook of Chem. & Phys.: Lightning Flash : Number of strokes per flash : 3-4 Interval between strokes : 40 millisec. Time duration of flash : 0.2 seconds Charge transfered : 25 coulombs Return Stroke : Time to Peak Current : 2 microsec. Peak Current : 10-20 KAmps ! ] Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full B. Franklin was wrong. Try some more recent research, like Steinmetz. :-) It's thought today that the major benefit of lightning rods is the prevention of lightning bolts by dissipation of accumulated charge. ۴lG,PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff  Time to 1/2 of Peak Current : 40 microsec Energy delivered to a stroke : about 100,000 joules per meter ! Most lightning begins with a "stepped leader" from the ground to the cloud, propogating at typically 150,000 meters/sec. Following that is a "return stroke" from the cloud to the ground, propogating at typically 50,000,000 meters/sec. Lightning typically brings negative charge to earth. Lightning "picks its target" from "probably several decameters [10's of meters], depending on conductivity distribution in the ground". -- Dennis O'Connor oconnor%sungod@steinmetz.UUCP ARPA: OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa "Never confuse USENET with something that matters, like PIZZA." -------------------------------- n full B. Franklin was wrong. Try some more recent research, like Steinmetz. :-) It's thought today that the major benefit of lightning rods is the prevention of lightning bolts by dissipation of accumulated charge. ۴lG0jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 00:40:10 GMT From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) Article-I.D.: <8107@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> <8058@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> <2455@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> Among the boons said to be provided by SDI research is the discovery that relativity is wrong. This is based on a series of articles in Electronic Engineering Times, which refers to a paper by Peter Graneau. I have looked at the paper in question (J. Phys. D 20(3):391-393), and I have come to the conclusion that the author does not know how a railgun works. The basic format of a railgun is: yJ`0jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los -------- |+ | battery ======================================== |- P switch P | ======================================== | | -------- Where the battery is a large (really large, wow it's big) homopolar generator, capacitor bank, or other DC power source. P is the projectile: a conductor free to slide along the conducting rails. When the switch is closed, current flows clockwise out of the battery, out the top rail, through the projectile, back along the bottom rail, through the switch and into the battery. This produces a magnetic field in the loop which accelerates the (current-carrying) projectile t know how a railgun works. The basic format of a railgun is: yJ`0jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just lostout to the right. This is all well and good and understood by anyone who has taken three quarters of frosh E&M. Graneau, on the other hand, believes that this contradicts all known theory. His reasoning (paraphrased) is as follows: 1) The projectile moves because EM radiation impinges on the back of the projectile, bounces off, and flies out the breach of the railgun. 2) In order to conserve momentum, the EM radiation coming out the breach of the railgun must have as much momentum as the projectile coming out the muzzle. 3) For each mass m of projectile coming out at velocity u, loop which accelerates the (current-carrying) projectile t know how a railgun works. The basic format of a railgun is: yJ`0jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just losp you need breech radiation with energy such that: E(rad)/c = p(rad) = p(proj) = mu E(rad) = muc = 2 k.e.(proj) c/u {k.e.(proj) = kinetic energy of projectile} 4) For a muzzle velocity of 4 km/s, this gives an efficiency k.e.(proj)/(E(rad)+ke(proj)) = 1/150,000 5) The efficiency of a railgun is much much much better than that (I neglected to write down what the efficiency was) and so there is obviously something wrong with the argument. Graneau decided that relativity was vanquished and we had to retreat back to the nineteenth century to find theory to explain it. u, loop which accelerates the (current-carrying) projectile t know how a railgun works. The basic format of a railgun is: yJ`0jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los Almost everyone else who reads his paper will decide that step 1) is wrong. That is not the way a railgun works, and so the whole argument is horsewash. A railgun can be thought of as acting in a manner similar to a gas-gun, such as an air-rifle, musket, cannon, pea-shooter, etc. The current in the loop produces a magnetic field (into the screen in this case) which exerts a 'pressure' on the current carrying wires. The total force outwards on all the wires adds up to zero. (The rails are pressed up and down, the projectile is pushed right, and the wires, battery, and switch going to the rails are pushed left.) Since the projectile is free to slide right, the rest of the railgun recoils left. This is how a railgun could be used as a propulsion device, using the projectiles as reaction mass. In short, if this paper is typical of SDI funded research, we would yJ`0jPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los probably be better off giving the money to the creationists instead. At least they are amusing. :-) David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Flowers -- Just say NO!!" - Mighty Mouse -------------------------------- . The current in the loop produces a magnetic field (into the screen in this case) which exerts a 'pressure' on the current carrying wires. The total force outwards on all the wires adds up to zero. (The rails are pressed up and down, the projectile is pushed right, and the wires, battery, and switch going to the rails are pushed left.) Since the projectile is free to slide right, the rest of the railgun recoils left. This is how a railgun could be used as a propulsion device, using the projectiles as reaction mass. In short, if this paper is typical of SDI funded research, we would yJ`5PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 05:04:39 GMT From: jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) Article-I.D.: <8708@watdragon.waterloo.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <8667@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <40.UUL1.2#239@valley.UUCP> In article <40.UUL1.2#239@valley.UUCP> stan@valley.UUCP (Stanley L. Kameny) writes: >In article: <8667@watdragon.waterloo.edu> jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) >writes: >> >> Neutrinos have a specific rest energy, just as electrons and protons do. > >Sorry, Jim, whatever neutrinos may have, such as energy, momentum, and >spin, parity and any other properties, rest energy isn't one that has >been detected to date. Physicists have conducted countless experiments  5PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air>to detect neutrino mass, if it exists, because it would help to explain >other calculations, particularly those associated with missing mass, but >it has never been found. (I forget what the current upper bound is, but >remember that it is _very_ small!) > > Stan Kameny valley!stan@rand.org {sdcrdcf!}randvax!valley!stan Did I say that? I meant to say that neutrinos had a particular energy required for their creation, as hadrons and leptons have a rest energy. I believe the neutrino has a rest mass of zero. Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology. -------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 22:23:19 GMT From: jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) Article-I.D.: <8722@watdragon.waterloo.edu> untless experiments  5PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airnIn-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <16939@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> <8794@ihlpb.ATT.COM> In article <8794@ihlpb.ATT.COM> tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >Actually, an isolated real photon cannot convert directly to massive >neutrinos either. This is due simply to energy momentum conservation. >If the neutrinos have mass, there is a Lorentz frame in which >the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum >conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, The photon has an energy of pc , where p is its momentum and c is the speed of light. This momentum would appear different after a Lorentz transform, hence the redshifting and blueshifting of light. >i. e., the photon must have a rest frame. Assuming the photon is truly >massless, it has no rest frame. Thus the decay is impossible.  5PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airgYour explanation seems to fall short if neutrinos have no mass. -------------------------------- In article <8794@ihlpb.ATT.COM> tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >Actually, an isolated real photon cannot convert directly to massive >neutrinos either. This is due simply to energy momentum conservation. >If the neutrinos have mass, there is a Lorentz frame in which >the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum >conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, The photon has an energy of pc , where p is its momentum and c is the speed of light. This momentum would appear different after a Lorentz transform, hence the redshifting and blueshifting of light. >i. e., the photon must have a rest frame. Assuming the photon is truly >massless, it has no rest frame. Thus the decay is impossible.  9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM An integral involving the erro---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 14:01:29 GMT From: srwmcsw@windy.dsir.govt.nz (Kit) Article-I.D.: <1848@windy.dsir.govt.nz> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1108@xn.LL.MIT.EDU> In article <1108@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, rp@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Richard Pavelle) writes: > It is known in the literature that integrals such as the following > > > / 2 2 > [ n - b x > I x %e erf(a x + c) dx > ] > / > > can be expressed in finite terms as functions of erfs and exponentials G9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM An integral involving the erro> so long as n is odd and positive and a,b,c are constants. Given the > integral for n=1 one can obtain other odd values by differentiating > wrt b. I have not included the integral in this message because it is > fairly complicated, but I will send it to anyone who asks. > > I would like to know whether anyone has encountered a closed form or > approximation for even values of n. I believe it cannot be integrated > in finite terms but have not seen a proof. > -- > Richard Pavelle You don't say what your range of integration is. Here I take it as the line. To do it for n=2,4,6,..... it suffices to do it for n=0 then differentiate n/2 times with respect to b^2. Here's how I do it for n=0. I prefer to deal with \Phi(x) = probability(N0. For n=0, integral= k*int(p(v)*(2*P(u)-1)du= k*int(p(v)*(2*P(u)-1)dv/g where k=(2*pi)^(1/2)*k2 and k2=dx/du=1/(a*sqrt(2)). Hence integral = k*(2*int2-int3)/g where int3=int(p(v)dv=1 and int2= int(p(v)*P((v-f)/g)dv)= E P((N1-f)/g)= E prob.(N2<(N1-f)/g) for N1, N2 independent unit normal random variables & E the expectation . But N2*g-N1=N*h where N is another unit normal r.v. and h=sqrt(1+g^2). Hence int2= E prob.(N<-f/h) = P(-f/h) This gives you your integral for n=0 in terms of the error function. prefer to deal with \Phi(x) = probability(N In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1108@xn.LL.MIT.EDU> <1848@windy.dsir.govt.nz> In article <1848@windy.dsir.govt.nz>, srwmcsw@windy.dsir.govt.nz (Kit) writes: > In article <1108@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, rp@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Richard Pavelle) writes: > > It is known in the literature that integrals such as the following > > > > > > / 2 2 > > [ n - b x Hence int2= E prob.(N<-f/h) = P(-f/h) This gives you your integral for n=0 in terms of the error function. prefer to deal with \Phi(x) = probability(N > I x %e erf(a x + c) dx > > ] > > / > > > > can be expressed in finite terms as functions of erfs and exponentials > > so long as n is odd and positive and a,b,c are constants. Given the > > integral for n=1 one can obtain other odd values by differentiating > > wrt b. I have not included the integral in this message because it is > > fairly complicated, but I will send it to anyone who asks. > > > > I would like to know whether anyone has encountered a closed form or > > approximation for even values of n. I believe it cannot be integrated > > in finite terms but have not seen a proof. > > -- > > Richard Pavelle > > You don't say what your range of integration is. Here I take it as the line. G9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM An integral involving the erro> To do it for n=2,4,6,..... it suffices to do it for n=0 then differentiate > n/2 times with respect to b^2. Here's how I do it for n=0. > ...... > Kit Withers, DSIR, Box 1335, Wellington, New Zealand. I should have been more clear in the original posting about the range of integration. I am seeking the indefinite integral. As I have had a few requests for the form of the integral I found in the literature, I will give it below: 'integrate(x*%e^-(b^2*x^2)*erf(a*x+c),x) = a*%e^-(b^2*c^2/(b^2+a^2))*erf(sqrt(b^2+a^2)*x+a*c/sqrt(b^2+a^2)) /(2*b^2*sqrt(b^2+a^2))-%e^-(b^2*x^2)*erf(a*x+c)/(2*b^2); / 2 2 [ - b x s but have not seen a proof. > > -- > > Richard Pavelle > > You don't say what your range of integration is. Here I take it as the line. G9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM An integral involving the erros I x %e erf(a x + c) dx = ] / 2 2 b c - ------- 2 2 b + a 2 2 a c a %e erf(sqrt(b + a ) x + -------------) 2 2 2 2 - b x sqrt(b + a ) %e erf(a x + c) -------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------- 2 2 2 2 2 b sqrt(b + a ) 2 b / 2 2 [ - b x s but have not seen a proof. > > -- > > Richard Pavelle > > You don't say what your range of integration is. Here I take it as the line. G9PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM An integral involving the erro<-- Richard Pavelle -------------------------------- 2 2 b c - ------- 2 2 b + a 2 2 a c a %e erf(sqrt(b + a ) x + -------------) 2 2 2 2 - b x sqrt(b + a ) %e erf(a x + c) -------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------- 2 2 2 2 2 b sqrt(b + a ) 2 b / 2 2 [ - b x s but have not seen a proof. > > -- > > Richard Pavelle > > You don't say what your range of integration is. Here I take it as the line. G@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 05:45:56 GMT From: aboulang@bbn.com (Albert Boulanger) Article-I.D.: <30191@bbn.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1369@garth.UUCP> <2346@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> <1383@garth.UUCP> <1929@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu> <12512@duke.cs.duke.edu> <7167@aw.sei.cmu.edu> <13763@mimsy.UUCP> In <13763@mimsy.UUCP> Darren F. Provine writes You see, ``every function "which would naturally be regarded as computable"'' and ``the class of functions which can be computed by some algorithm'' are pretty much the same thing. Do you have some way of computing a eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption  function without an algorithm that nobody else in the entire world knows about? Yup, Quantum Computers! (Half Serious :-)) Let me quote the abstract of the following paper: "Quantum Theory, the Church-Turing Principle and the Universal Quantum Computer", D. Deutsch, Proc. R. Soc. Lond. A400 97-117 (1985) "It is argued that underlying the Church-Turing hypothesis there is an implicit physical assertion. Here, this assertion is presented explicitly as a physical principle: 'every finitely realizable physical system can be perfectly simulated by a universal model computing machine operating by finite means'. Classical physics and the universal Turing machine, because the former is continuous and the latter discrete, do not obey the principle, at least in the strong form above. A class of model computing machines that is the quantum generalization of the class of Turing machines is described, and is shown that eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption quantum theory an the 'universal quantum computer' are compatible with the principle. Computing machines resembling the universal quantum computer could, in principle, be built and would have remarkable properties not reproducible by any Turing machine. These do not include the computation of non-recursive Functions, but they do include 'quantum parallelism', a method by which certain probabilistic tasks can be performed faster by a universal quantum computer than any classical restriction of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of quantum theory other than Everett's. (Multiple-Worlds interpretation - ed) Some of the numerous connections between quantum theory of computation and the rest of physics are explored. Quantum complexity theory allows a physically more reasonable definition of the 'complexity' or 'knowledge' in a physical system than does classical complexity theory." For 1 one page description of this paper, see John Maddox's News and Views "Towards the Quantum Computer?", Nature Vol 316, 15 August 1985, 573. For a perspective and a readable account of why Deutsch reasons that universal eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption quantum computers support the Many-Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, see the chapter on Deutsch in the book, "The Ghost in the Atom", P.C.W. Davies, & J.R. Brown eds, Cambridge University Press, 1986 (Chapter 6). I should also mention that thinking along these lines have led others to investigate the ultimate randomness in quantum mechanics. See "Randomness in Quantum Mechanics - Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually analyzed data from NBS ionic-trap data, and so far QM checks out to be really random. Now to some, this stuff about quantum computers may sound MAX flaky, but consider the fact that intuitive people like Feynman wrote papers on the topic. A key new theory that helps put the question of randomness and the question of determinism (to some extent) into perspective is algorithmic complexity theory. In this theory, one can assign a measure of randomness to a number r, see John Maddox's News and Views "Towards the Quantum Computer?", Nature Vol 316, 15 August 1985, 573. For a perspective and a readable account of why Deutsch reasons that universal eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption ]string, by using as a metric the shortest algorithm that could produce that string. If one considers the decimal expansion of the reals, than "most" of the the number line is dominated by numbers with infinite algorithmic complexity. Furthermore, these numbers are inaccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the measurable functions be non-determinate or that the elements of probability space correspond to inherently unpredictable or erratic events." The way I think of nondeterminism is operational. For example, if I were to be given an infinite-complexity number like Chaitin's omega, and an infinite resource universal computer I could use it as a seed to a random number generator (ie a chaotic system) and generate truly non-repeating random numbers. But since the initial seed required infinite resources, I could never realize it on a 'classical' computer. The important question is whether nature For a perspective and a readable account of why Deutsch reasons that universal eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption has access to such numbers. Albert Boulanger aboulanger@bbn.com BBN Systems & Technologies, Inc. -------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 05:46:24 GMT From: aboulang@bbn.com (Albert Boulanger) Article-I.D.: <30192@bbn.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1369@garth.UUCP> <2346@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> <1383@garth.UUCP> <1929@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu> <12512@duke.cs.duke.edu> <7167@aw.sei.cmu.edu> <13763@mimsy.UUCP> nt (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the measurable functions be non-determinate or that the elements of probability space correspond to inherently unpredictable or erratic events." The way I think of nondeterminism is operational. For example, if I were to be given an infinite-complexity number like Chaitin's omega, and an infinite resource universal computer I could use it as a seed to a random number generator (ie a chaotic system) and generate truly non-repeating random numbers. But since the initial seed required infinite resources, I could never realize it on a 'classical' computer. The important question is whether nature For a perspective and a readable account of why Deutsch reasons that universal eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption 2 In <13763@mimsy.UUCP> Darren F. Provine writes You see, ``every function "which would naturally be regarded as computable"'' and ``the class of functions which can be computed by some algorithm'' are pretty much the same thing. Do you have some way of computing a function without an algorithm that nobody else in the entire world knows about? Yup, Quantum Computers! (Half Serious :-)) Let me quote the abstract of the following paper: "Quantum Theory, the Church-Turing Principle and the Universal Quantum Computer", D. elements of probability space correspond to inherently unpredictable or erratic events." The way I think of nondeterminism is operational. For example, if I were to be given an infinite-complexity number like Chaitin's omega, and an infinite resource universal computer I could use it as a seed to a random number generator (ie a chaotic system) and generate truly non-repeating random numbers. But since the initial seed required infinite resources, I could never realize it on a 'classical' computer. The important question is whether nature For a perspective and a readable account of why Deutsch reasons that universal eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption Deutsch, Proc. R. Soc. Lond. A400 97-117 (1985) "It is argued that underlying the Church-Turing hypothesis there is an implicit physical assertion. Here, this assertion is presented explicitly as a physical principle: 'every finitely realizable physical system can be perfectly simulated by a universal model computing machine operating by finite means'. Classical physics and the universal Turing machine, because the former is continuous and the latter discrete, do not obey the principle, at least in the strong form above. A class of model computing machines that is the quantum generalization of the class of Turing machines is described, and is shown that quantum theory an the 'universal quantum computer' are compatible with the principle. Computing machines resembling the universal quantum computer could, in principle, be built and would have remarkable properties not reproducible by any Turing machine. These do not include the computation of non-recursive Functions, but they do include 'quantum parallelism', a method by which certain probabilistic tasks can be performed faster by a universal quantum computer than any classical restriction of it. The intuitive explanation of eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption ^these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of quantum theory other than Everett's. (Multiple-Worlds interpretation - ed) Some of the numerous connections between quantum theory of computation and the rest of physics are explored. Quantum complexity theory allows a physically more reasonable definition of the 'complexity' or 'knowledge' in a physical system than does classical complexity theory." For 1 one page description of this paper, see John Maddox's News and Views "Towards the Quantum Computer?", Nature Vol 316, 15 August 1985, 573. For a perspective and a readable account of why Deutsch reasons that universal quantum computers support the Many-Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, see the chapter on Deutsch in the book, "The Ghost in the Atom", P.C.W. Davies, & J.R. Brown eds, Cambridge University Press, 1986 (Chapter 6). I should also mention that thinking along these lines have led others to investigate the ultimate randomness in quantum mechanics. See "Randomness in Quantum Mechanics - Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, versal quantum computer than any classical restriction of it. The intuitive explanation of eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually analyzed data from NBS ionic-trap data, and so far QM checks out to be really random. Now to some, this stuff about quantum computers may sound MAX flaky, but consider the fact that intuitive people like Feynman wrote papers on the topic. A key new theory that helps put the question of randomness and the question of determinism (to some extent) into perspective is algorithmic complexity theory. In this theory, one can assign a measure of randomness to a number string, by using as a metric the shortest algorithm that could produce that string. If one considers the decimal expansion of the reals, than "most" of the the number line is dominated by numbers with infinite algorithmic complexity. Furthermore, these numbers are inaccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic imate randomness in quantum mechanics. See "Randomness in Quantum Mechanics - Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, versal quantum computer than any classical restriction of it. The intuitive explanation of eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the measurable functions be non-determinate or that the elements of probability space correspond to inherently unpredictable or erratic events." The way I think of nondeterminism is operational. For example, if I were to be given an infinite-complexity number like Chaitin's omega, and an infinite resource universal computer I could use it as a seed to a random number generator (ie a chaotic system) and generate truly non-repeating random numbers. But since the initial seed required infinite resources, I could never realize it on a 'classical' computer. The important question is whether nature has access to such numbers. Albert Boulanger aboulanger@bbn.com algorithmic complexity. Furthermore, these numbers are inaccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic imate randomness in quantum mechanics. See "Randomness in Quantum Mechanics - Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, versal quantum computer than any classical restriction of it. The intuitive explanation of eP@*`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM The Ignorant assumption HBBN Systems & Technologies, Inc. -------------------------------- hat the measurable functions be non-determinate or that the elements of probability space correspond to inherently unpredictable or erratic events." The way I think of nondeterminism is operational. For example, if I were to be given an infinite-complexity number like Chaitin's omega, and an infinite resource universal computer I could use it as a seed to a random number generator (ie a chaotic system) and generate truly non-repeating random numbers. But since the initial seed required infinite resources, I could never realize it on a 'classical' computer. The important question is whether nature has access to such numbers. Albert Boulanger aboulanger@bbn.com algorithmic complexity. Furthermore, these numbers are inaccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic imate randomness in quantum mechanics. See "Randomness in Quantum Mechanics - Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, versal quantum computer than any classical restriction of it. The intuitive explanation of ePNמ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Deutsch's many-worlds claim ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 07:36:40 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14782@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12512@duke.cs.duke.edu> <7167@aw.sei.cmu.edu> <13763@mimsy.UUCP> <30191@bbn.COM> In article <30191@bbn.COM>, aboulang@bbn (Albert Boulanger) writes: >Deutsch reasons that universal quantum computers support the >Many-Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, What nonsense. See von Weiszaecker et al, explaining the fallacy in Deutsch's thought experiment (Intl J of Th Phys, circa Dec 87). ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 x Nמ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Deutsch's many-worlds claim "-------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 88 07:36:40 GMT From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Article-I.D.: <14782@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <12512@duke.cs.duke.edu> <7167@aw.sei.cmu.edu> <13763@mimsy.UUCP> <30191@bbn.COM> In article <30191@bbn.COM>, aboulang@bbn (Albert Boulanger) writes: >Deutsch reasons that universal quantum computers support the >Many-Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, What nonsense. See von Weiszaecker et al, explaining the fallacy in Deutsch's thought experiment (Intl J of Th Phys, circa Dec 87). ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 x R/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 04:27:06 GMT From: dmocsny@uceng.UC.EDU (daniel mocsny) Article-I.D.: <286@uceng.UC.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1138@sri-arpa.ARPA> <1720001@hpsad.HP.COM> In article <1720001@hpsad.HP.COM>, frankb@hpsad.HP.COM (Frank Ball) writes: > > *I recall reading that the main parameter associated with NOX emissions was > *the engine compression ratio, i.e. pressure rather than temperature. > > Higher compression ratios result in higher temperatures. Remember the > gas law: PV=nRT Higher pressure should favor a gaseous product with smaller molar volume, and NOX would have a lower volume than the reactants for X>1. Higher temperatures should accelerate the reaction rate, and ٟR/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM NOX and Acid-Rain thus the approach to equilibrium. Temperature can also shift the equilibrium, but I'll need to look up the free-energy change data for the reactions to determine which way it shifts. Dan Mocsny -------------------------------- OM> In article <1720001@hpsad.HP.COM>, frankb@hpsad.HP.COM (Frank Ball) writes: > > *I recall reading that the main parameter associated with NOX emissions was > *the engine compression ratio, i.e. pressure rather than temperature. > > Higher compression ratios result in higher temperatures. Remember the > gas law: PV=nRT Higher pressure should favor a gaseous product with smaller molar volume, and NOX would have a lower volume than the reactants for X>1. Higher temperatures should accelerate the reaction rate, and ٟUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 07:03:09 GMT From: pyramid!decwrl!labrea!bloom-beacon!coplex!laffu!chuck@UCBVax.Berkeley.EDU (Chuck Sites) Article-I.D.: <148@laffu.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> In article <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM>, rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) writes: > In article <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> gsh7w@astsun1.acc.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) writes: > > > >Why spend a trillion dollars or so on something that ain't gonna work? > > Sounds like a real FAT pork-barrel I'd like to be in on. :-) (Just a joke) >ܤUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... /> As a person who makes a living developing firmware to control hardware, > it is my informed opinion that SDI will be difficult to implement as > advertized, and certainly not on the advertized schedule. After "Musing" for several days I'm glad to hear someone from the development side of SDI speak up, and tell it like it is; difficult to implement, and not on schedule. [Rick's stuff about, " all those hamburgers that will have to be flipped for the researchers." ] (This just sounded so funny I had to quote it. Besides, it's good to know that our hard earned tax dollars are going to such a worthy cause as flipp'n burgs.) ----- After reading all of the debate, pro and con, I simply want to point out that the "Deployment" of a large scale SDI system (which would probably eclipse >ܤUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... any soviet systems) can not be done without considering the response that the soviets would take. Even a scaled back deployment can not be done without some consideration of it's consiquences to US/Soviet relations, current, and future treaties, and world opion. My feelings are not totally against SDI. However I am a person who would much rather see an SDI used to benifit man-kind as opposed to using it to highthen or increase tensions between our nation and the soviets. This is why I beleive making use of the "Tritium Factor" in conjunction with a well planned and thought out SDI type system could be of some benifit, or should be considered as an option of a tritium factor based arms reduction proposal. If peace and/or survivability of a nuclear exchange is a desirable goal for our nation and theirs, It would seem that a reduction of the 14,000US/12,000USSR nuclear weapons is a proper step in obtaining that goal. The Tritium Factor seems to allow this reduction in a gradual, verifiable, and predictable manner. Because the tritium factor is predictable, it seems that a time could be defined, by treaty agreement, which would allow for an >ܤUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... SDI deployment from both sides for the means of protecting against terrorists, and accident, without an increase of tensions. Besides, wouldn't you rather see the US/soviet future wars fought on the economic battle ground rather than on a nuclear battle ground? -- "Nothing can be made fool proof because fools are just too damned clever" ______________________________________________________________________________ . . . . AUTHOR: Chuck Sites @ The Louisville Area Forum For Unix . . . . o o o o o UUCP: {mit-eddie}!bloom-beacon!coplex!chuck o o o o o O O O O O O ATT: (502)454-7218 \laffu!chuck O O O O O O ______________________________________________________________________________ -------------------------------- le goal for our nation and theirs, It would seem that a reduction of the 14,000US/12,000USSR nuclear weapons is a proper step in obtaining that goal. The Tritium Factor seems to allow this reduction in a gradual, verifiable, and predictable manner. Because the tritium factor is predictable, it seems that a time could be defined, by treaty agreement, which would allow for an >ܤYPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Rail gun research ---------------------------------------------------------------- Return-Path: Date: 28 Sep 1988 09:40:30 EDT (Wed) From: Ralph Hartley > Rail gun research > is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written > up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find > the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed > that the relativity theorists were wrong in at least this case.) I have seen work in which I was involved written up in that publication. Its accuracy was at less than chance levels. MUCH less. If you get your technical knowledge from the EE Times, I sudgest that you continue to post to the net; writing on bathroom walls may get you in trouble. Sorry about the flamage but the article (which I will not cite to protect the guilty) Is still fresh in my mind after several VeYPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Rail gun research years. I seem to have mis-posted this so I will try again. The article I remember was written in the same extravagant style as the excerpts just posted. It refered to the results of experiments that han never been performed, on prototype hardware that had not even been designed, under conditions that never existed. It would best be described as a skeleton consiting of an exageration of an exageration, made to appear solid by a covering of whole cloth fiction. Proponents of space colonization commit a major error when they neglect the cost of orbiting the tons of salt needed for reading the EE Times. Opinions? My employer? Ralph Hartley You must be joking! hartley@nrl-aic.arpa ontinue to post to the net; writing on bathroom walls may get you in trouble. Sorry about the flamage but the article (which I will not cite to protect the guilty) Is still fresh in my mind after several VeYPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Rail gun research "-------------------------------- osted this so I will try again. The article I remember was written in the same extravagant style as the excerpts just posted. It refered to the results of experiments that han never been performed, on prototype hardware that had not even been designed, under conditions that never existed. It would best be described as a skeleton consiting of an exageration of an exageration, made to appear solid by a covering of whole cloth fiction. Proponents of space colonization commit a major error when they neglect the cost of orbiting the tons of salt needed for reading the EE Times. Opinions? My employer? Ralph Hartley You must be joking! hartley@nrl-aic.arpa ontinue to post to the net; writing on bathroom walls may get you in trouble. Sorry about the flamage but the article (which I will not cite to protect the guilty) Is still fresh in my mind after several VeA5BIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU New Newsletter  For interested environmentalists there is a new NEWSLETTER on BITNET called OZONE NEWSGROUP NEWSLETTER. The OZONE list is at ICNUCEVM (Centro Nazionale Universitario di Calcolo Elettronico, Pisa Italy). The owner is Erina Ferro. The OZONE list although the name would suggest that it would deal primarily with what is happening in the atmosphere, in actual fact it covers a broad range of environmental issues. Here is the table of contents of the first issue and also the ID@nodes of two people you can contact if you want to know more about the OZONE list or if you want to make contributions to the OZONE Newsletter. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% EXTRACT %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Ozone Newsgroup Newsletter Number 1 28 September 1988 Contents of this issue: %A5BIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU New Newsletter 5 Articles: %1 `Reduce chlorine to save ozone, report says' %2`Recycling Program is judged a success' %3 `Environmental Awakening in the Soviet Union' Reviews: %4 `Energy for a Sustainable World' %5 `The Earth Report: Monitoring the Battle for our Environment' %6 `Gaia - A new look at Life on Earth' Comment: %7 `Man, the ultimate predator' %8 `The Gases have to go' Miscellaneous: %9 `Ozone Depletion Conference' %10 `Request for Submissions' %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%CONTACTS%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% You've just read the first issue of the Ozone Newsgroup Newsletter. This issue was put together with submissions from John Lynch, Terry Sommerville, and Larry Hughes. If you have any Number 1 28 September 1988 Contents of this issue: %A5BIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU New Newsletter ! suggestions or if you want to contribute to the next newsletter, please send your mail to either: tsommer@irlearn.bitnet or lhughes@vax1.tuns.cdn %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Rob "information broker" Harper le for our Environment' %6 `Gaia - A new look at Life on Earth' Comment: %7 `Man, the ultimate predator' %8 `The Gases have to go' Miscellaneous: %9 `Ozone Depletion Conference' %10 `Request for Submissions' %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%CONTACTS%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% You've just read the first issue of the Ozone Newsgroup Newsletter. This issue was put together with submissions from John Lynch, Terry Sommerville, and Larry Hughes. If you have any Number 1 28 September 1988 Contents of this issue: %PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM metric system in US and UK ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 22:58:42 GMT From: bellcore!clyde!watmath!utgpu!utzoo!sq!msb@Rutgers.EDU (Mark Brader) Article-I.D.: <1988Sep27.185842.24410@sq.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <557@uwovax.uwo.ca> <40900029@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk> <591@aiva.ed.ac.uk> <386@thomas.cs.bham.ac.uk> <14662@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> > There have been signs in national parks that say stuff like elevation > 5000 feet, and then underneath give the exact metric equivalent. Ugh. This time the signs are correct, because they are placed to tell you when your elevation is passing an exact multiple of 1000 feet. Of course, it would be equally correct, and possibly preferable, to have a second series of signs placed at exact multiples of (say) 500 m. But the method used is the cheapest, and probably more comprehensible to the majority of Americans. mPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM metric system in US and UK Most uses of "5 feet (1524 mm)" or "5000 feet (1524 m)" are wrong, but there are some contexts where the figures are understood to be exact. The above is one instance; laws and regulations are another; size designations, in many cases, are a third. By the way, the Canadian Standards Association has adopted the 0.3048 m foot implied by the above examples. I've heard that in Britain, on the other hand, the foot is officially 1200/3937 m; and that both of these and at least one other foot (also differing in the 6th significant digit) have been used in the US. Can anyone give an *authoritative* update on the US foot? I'm adding a cross-posting to sci.physics to improve the probability of hearing from someone, but directing followups back to misc.misc where this subject thread originated. Mark Brader "NO LEFT TURN INTO CLOVERLEAF ALLEY EXCEPT FROM THE Toronto MIDDLE LANE OF THE OUTER ROADWAY -- SUNDAYS AND utzoo!sq!msb ALTERNATE HOLIDAYS EXCLUDED UNLESS CHURCH SERVICES mPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM metric system in US and UK jmsb@sq.com ARE IN PROGRESS" [former Killington, VT, road sign] -------------------------------- figures are understood to be exact. The above is one instance; laws and regulations are another; size designations, in many cases, are a third. By the way, the Canadian Standards Association has adopted the 0.3048 m foot implied by the above examples. I've heard that in Britain, on the other hand, the foot is officially 1200/3937 m; and that both of these and at least one other foot (also differing in the 6th significant digit) have been used in the US. Can anyone give an *authoritative* update on the US foot? I'm adding a cross-posting to sci.physics to improve the probability of hearing from someone, but directing followups back to misc.misc where this subject thread originated. Mark Brader "NO LEFT TURN INTO CLOVERLEAF ALLEY EXCEPT FROM THE Toronto MIDDLE LANE OF THE OUTER ROADWAY -- SUNDAYS AND utzoo!sq!msb ALTERNATE HOLIDAYS EXCLUDED UNLESS CHURCH SERVICES m -oPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 h---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 16:52:51 GMT From: norm@ochoa.bcm.tmc.edu (Norman Furlong) Article-I.D.: <1293@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1401@pur-phy> <14229@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <1249@anasaz.UUCP> In article <1249@anasaz.UUCP> john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) writes: >In article, weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: ^^^^^^^^^ Courageous grad student, you mean. >]Perhaps you don't remember the McCarthy era. Perhaps you think it was >]mostly Hollywood actors getting blacklisted and all that rot. >]It wasn't. More than half of those investigated and generally ruined >]by the McCarthy witchhunts were mathematicians, physicists, and engi- >]neers. Presumably the people who might be passing atomic bomb secrets 7Y` -oPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 c>]--or worse--to the Commies. Of course, all of this turned out in the >]end to be McCarthy's political grandstanding. > >So what does this have to do with anything? Certainly your >comments about McCarthyism have nothing to do with physics! I >assume that you are somehow implying that republicans are >McCarthyites! It seems to me that the modern McCarthyites >are the democrats of the world, who go after Ollie North, >Ed Meese, and Judge Bork! This is drifting far from physics, >but that's what happens when you post biased crap on here >(What's News)! >] >]I think quite simply that Richard Piner has a longer memory than you do >]of loyalty oaths and the terrible damage they did to the physics and Demoratic McCarthyism, that's a good one! Pretty soon, you people will be trying to slander Dukakis for supporting the ACLU, an organization ets 7Y` -oPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 which defended your man Ollie North! No, you wouldn't be *THAT* stupid, Joseph. :-) >No one is talking about loyalty oaths like the McCarthy era! They are >saying that teachers can lead a pledge of allegance if they chose, >or that school boards (who presumably represent the parents of >the children they are educating) can require that. What, by >the way, does that have to do with physics? What do you think a "required" pledge is, John? Fourty years ago, people were beaten and driven from their homes because they refused to pledge alliegence to someone else's idea of authority. Freedom from imposed authority has everything to do with physics because scientific creativity cannot flourish without it, as Bruno, Gallileo, Oppenheimer and many others could attest to if they were alive today! Do you really want to see children once again persecuted for not praying or pledging in the fashion dictated by others? 7Y` -oPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/09/88 V >The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be >someone else's. I am heartened by the lack of a smiley face on your signature above because I would find it difficult to believe that an otherwise intelligent phys- icist could agrue so vehemently in favor of Republican cuts in education and imposed authority in the classroom. You're not getting any SDI money by any chance, are you? Just a thought. %^) Norman B. Furlong, norm@bcm.tmc.edu Office of VPIT Baylor College of Medicine Houston, Texas 77030 -------------------------------- ity. Freedom from imposed authority has everything to do with physics because scientific creativity cannot flourish without it, as Bruno, Gallileo, Oppenheimer and many others could attest to if they were alive today! Do you really want to see children once again persecuted for not praying or pledging in the fashion dictated by others? 7Y`A| THEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU wDate: 26 Sep 88 15:49:15 GMT From: milos@cs.ucla.edu (Dr Milos Ercegovac) Message-ID: <485@mcmi.UUCP> Subject: 9th Symposium on Computer Arithmetic, 1989 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9th SYMPOSIUM ON COMPUTER ARITHMETIC - ARITH 9 September 6-8, 1989 Santa Monica, California Loews Santa Monica Beach Hotel Sponsored by the Technical Committee on Computer Architecture (TCCA) IEEE Computer Society in cooperation with IFIP WG 2.5 and UCLA Computer Science Department W `A| THEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU  CALL FOR PAPERS Authors are invited to submit papers describing new theoretical and applied results on all aspects of computer arithmetic, in- cluding but not restricted to the following topics: + Mathematical Foundations of Computer Arithmetic + Arithmetic Algorithms: Analysis, Implementation, and Design Methodologies/Tools + Arithmetic Processor Architectures and Implementations + Design of Testable and Dependable Arithmetic Systems + Arithmetic Aspects in Application Areas such as Signal and Image Processing, Graphics, and Robotics. + Numerical Error Control and Error Analysis W `A| THEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU  + High Level Language Support of Arithmetic Systems Four (4) copies of the complete paper (in English, not exceeding 20 double-spaced typed pages) should be submitted to Prof. Milos D. Ercegovac, Program Co-Chair, no later than Febru- ary 1, 1989. Author(s) identification should only appear on a separate sheet. Authors will be notified of acceptance by April 1, 1989, and final camera ready papers (up to 8 pages) will be due May 1, 1989. Proceedings will be available at the symposium. General Chairman Program Co-Chairman Program Co-Cha Prof. Algirdas Avizienis Prof. Milos D. Ercegovac Dr. Earl Swartz Computer Science Department Computer Science Department Defense Systems Group 4731G Boelter Hall 3732C Boelter Hall Bldg. R2/2076 UCLA UCLA TRW W `A| THEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU Los Angeles, Los Angeles, Redondo Beach, CA 90024 CA 90024 CA90278 213/825-3028 213/825-5414 213/812-0791 aviz@cs.ucla.edu milos@cs.ucla.edu 1989. Author(s) identification should only appear on a separate sheet. Authors will be notified of acceptance by April 1, 1989, and final camera ready papers (up to 8 pages) will be due May 1, 1989. Proceedings will be available at the symposium. General Chairman Program Co-Chairman Program Co-Cha Prof. Algirdas Avizienis Prof. Milos D. Ercegovac Dr. Earl Swartz Computer Science Department Computer Science Department Defense Systems Group 4731G Boelter Hall 3732C Boelter Hall Bldg. R2/2076 UCLA UCLA TRW W ` THEORYNET christos@HELOIS.UCSD.EDU 1989 STOC call for papers J------------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS 1989 ACM SYMPOSIUM ON THE THEORY OF COMPUTING The Twenty First Annual ACM Symposium on Theory of Computing, sponsored by the ACM Special Interest Group for Automata and Computability Theory (SIGACT), will be held in Seattle, in the state of Washington, May 14-16, 1989. Papers presenting original research on theoretical aspects of Computer Science are sought. Typical, but not exclusive, topics of interest include: Algorithms and data structures, logics of programs, computability and complexity, parallel and distributed computation, computational geometry, robotics, cryptography, semantics of programming languages, database theory, and formal aspects of VLSI and layout. Wh  THEORYNET christos@HELOIS.UCSD.EDU 1989 STOC call for papers SUBMISSION OF ABSTRACTS: Authors are requested to send twelve copies of a detailed abstract (not a full paper) by Nov. 14, 1988 to: Christos H. Papadimitriou Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering, C-014 University of California at San Diego La Jolla, California 92093 Abstracts should contain sufficient detail, as well as references to and comparisons with relevant extant work, to enable program committee members to appreciate their merits. It is recommended that abstracts start with a succinct statement of the problem and discussion of its significance and relevance to computation, appropriate for a non-specialist reader. A technical exposition, directed to the specialist, should follow. A limit of 10 double-spaced pages (about 12,000 bytes) is placed on all abstracts. Abstracts that significantly deviate from these guidelines risk rejection Wh  THEORYNET christos@HELOIS.UCSD.EDU 1989 STOC call for papers rwithout consideration of their merits. Abstracts not received by the Nov. 14 deadline (and not mailed by air, postmarked before Nov. 7) **will not be considered**. The program committee consists of Fan Chung, Cynthia Dwork, Faith Fich, Shafi Goldwasser, Debbie Joseph, Maria Klawe, Nancy Lynch, Christos Papadimitriou, Vijaya Ramachandran, 'Eva Tardos, Avi Wigderson, and Frances Yao. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by Jan. 20, 1989. A copy of each accepted paper is required by March 6, 1989. These copies may be either on special forms (model pages), which will be sent to the authors, or typeset as reduced-size (8 1/2 X 11) model pages. Authors who do not need the model pages are requested to make note of that fact in the letter of submittal. Information about local arrangements can be obtained from the conference l abstracts. Abstracts that significantly deviate from these guidelines risk rejection Wh  THEORYNET christos@HELOIS.UCSD.EDU 1989 STOC call for papers chairman: Richard E. Ladner Department of Computer Science, FR53 University of Washington Seattle, Washington 98195 ommittee consists of Fan Chung, Cynthia Dwork, Faith Fich, Shafi Goldwasser, Debbie Joseph, Maria Klawe, Nancy Lynch, Christos Papadimitriou, Vijaya Ramachandran, 'Eva Tardos, Avi Wigderson, and Frances Yao. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by Jan. 20, 1989. A copy of each accepted paper is required by March 6, 1989. These copies may be either on special forms (model pages), which will be sent to the authors, or typeset as reduced-size (8 1/2 X 11) model pages. Authors who do not need the model pages are requested to make note of that fact in the letter of submittal. Information about local arrangements can be obtained from the conference l abstracts. Abstracts that significantly deviate from these guidelines risk rejection Wh "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 23:18:19 GMT From: bellcore!faline!sword!gamma!ulysses!mhuxo!mhuxt!mhuxi!mhuxh!rsll@Rutgers.EDU (Brad Hansen) Article-I.D.: <1041@mhuxh.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In article <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: > > If you insist on MAD, consider this: What if the Soviets decide >that they can destroy most of our retailiatory capacity before it is >launched? How could we repsond with full force if they launched during >the Northern Lights? % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... l> By the time we would find out that their missiles are coming, our >silos would be craters. True, there are still SLBMs and some cruise >missiles, that is why they have a civil defense. Without SDI the US >is very vulnerable to such a situation. I thought that that's what spy satellites are for. Now if they destroyed or blinded _all_ our satellites during a period of high activity in the ionosphere I would expect that our forces would be in a state of high alert. Even if all our ground based nukes were taken out it would only take the MIRVs on two subs to blast the Soviets into the Bronze age. For deterrent purposes it's not necessary to turn northern Asia into a radioactive desert. >>> SDI has the potential to make nuclear missiles obselete, thus >>>saving immense amounts of money that now go to weapons production >>>and maintainance. % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Precisely. A 100% effective SDI defense would make nuclear _missiles_ obsolete. Nuclear warheads, on the other hand, would remain as popular as ever. They could still be used as battlefield weapons, and - most ominously of all - in a smuggler's war. There is nothing (except treaties) to prevent the Soviets from smuggling nuclear weapons into the U.S. in a diplomatic "pouch" and putting them in the basement of all their embassies. For all we know they might have already done it. The only credible reason for SDI that I can think of is to protect the U.S. from the small number of missiles that might be launched by an accident or by a Soviet missile base or sub commander acting without orders. >The Soviets certainly think that an SDI-like system is highly feasible. >There is nothing that we could do to make the Soviets proceed faster >with their system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... >facilities, etc. With the U.S. spending over $4 billion a year, of course the Soviets are going full speed ahead just trying to keep up. They also are concerned about being able to present a credible "defense", both in terms of MAD and actual protection. The U.S. is not the only country that has to worry about budget problems however, and the Soviets are already spending more on the military than their economy can support. Gorbachev is trying to get us to abandon SDI mainly because it is forcing him to spend money he would rather use to speed up changes in the civilian sector. -- Brad Hansen rsll@mhuxh.att.com AT&T Corp. Hq. Human Resources att!mhuxh!rsll 1 Speedwell Ave. 88E 209O rsll%mhuxh@att.arpa le. >There is nothing that we could do to make the Soviets proceed faster >with their system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Morristown, NJ 07960 -------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 88 16:10:04 GMT From: wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) Article-I.D.: <1394@cbnews.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus Lines: 74 In article <1041@mhuxh.UUCP> rsll@mhuxh.UUCP (58223-hansen) writes: d money he would rather use to speed up changes in the civilian sector. -- Brad Hansen rsll@mhuxh.att.com AT&T Corp. Hq. Human Resources att!mhuxh!rsll 1 Speedwell Ave. 88E 209O rsll%mhuxh@att.arpa le. >There is nothing that we could do to make the Soviets proceed faster >with their system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ?>In article <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: >> >>>> SDI has the potential to make nuclear missiles obselete, thus >>>>saving immense amounts of money that now go to weapons production >>>>and maintainance. > >Precisely. A 100% effective SDI defense would make nuclear >_missiles_ obsolete. Nuclear warheads, on the other hand, would >remain as popular as ever. They could still be used as battlefield >weapons, and - most ominously of all - in a smuggler's war. There >is nothing (except treaties) to prevent the Soviets from smuggling >nuclear weapons into the U.S. in a diplomatic "pouch" and putting >them in the basement of all their embassies. For all we know they >might have already done it. Oh, I rather expect we'd know if they Soviets had done this; make the Soviets proceed faster >with their system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... their embassy staff would be undergoing radiation therapy right now 8-) And how much do you think a shielded nuclear warhead weighs ? Anyway, what difference does it make ? Do you imply that, since the Soviets can set off a low-yield nuke (groundburst) in every city where they have an Embassy, we shouldn't worry that their missiles can get past our defenses and devastate the remaining 90% of the US ? >The only credible reason for SDI that I can think of is to protect >the U.S. from the small number of missiles that might be launched by >an accident or by a Soviet missile base or sub commander acting >without orders. Okay, on that basis alone, isn't it worth it ? You had earlier said that it would only take (pardon my paraphrase) "the MIRV'd payloads of two submarines" to turn the Soviet Union into a desert. Surely they could do the same to us with one crazy sub skipper... le in terms of scientists, % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  >>The Soviets certainly think that an SDI-like system is highly feasible. >>There is nothing that we could do to make the Soviets proceed faster >>with their system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, >>facilities, etc. > >With the U.S. spending over $4 billion a year, of course the Soviets >are going full speed ahead just trying to keep up. They also are Uh, "cart before the horse," sir. The Soviet's large budget for particle-beam weaponry, among other SDI-related activities, is part of what got *us* interested in space-based defense. >Gorbachev is trying to get us to abandon SDI mainly >because it is forcing him to spend money he would rather use to >speed up changes in the civilian sector. on my paraphrase) "the MIRV'd payloads of two submarines" to turn the Soviet Union into a desert. Surely they could do the same to us with one crazy sub skipper... le in terms of scientists, % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... That may, in fact, be true, as Gorbachev wasn't in power when the Soviet research was begun. However, I believe it much more likely that he opposes American SDI research for other reasons. Possibilities include: 1) He's afraid that we, being better at this sort of thing, will beat the Soviets to SDI and threaten them with it. 2) He knows that Reagan *will not* negotiate SDI; thus, he can gain propoganda victories by saying "We offered to eliminate IRBM's entirely if the US would drop SDI, but the warmongering yankees refused" 3) He merely wants to slow down US SDI development long enough for the Soviets to finish and deploy their system. he would rather use to >speed up changes in the civilian sector. on my paraphrase) "the MIRV'd payloads of two submarines" to turn the Soviet Union into a desert. Surely they could do the same to us with one crazy sub skipper... le in terms of scientists, % "PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... z ------------------------------ valuable coupon ------------------------------- Bill Thacker cbosgd!cbema!wbt "C" combines the power of assembly language with the flexibility of assembly language. Disclaimer: Farg 'em if they can't take a joke ! ------------------------------- clip and save -------------------------------- -------------------------------- ate SDI; thus, he can gain propoganda victories by saying "We offered to eliminate IRBM's entirely if the US would drop SDI, but the warmongering yankees refused" 3) He merely wants to slow down US SDI development long enough for the Soviets to finish and deploy their system. he would rather use to >speed up changes in the civilian sector. on my paraphrase) "the MIRV'd payloads of two submarines" to turn the Soviet Union into a desert. Surely they could do the same to us with one crazy sub skipper... le in terms of scientists, % 'KPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 88 19:12:00 GMT From: bellcore!tness7!ninja!cpe!hal6000!trsvax!bb@Rutgers.EDU Article-I.D.: <191500006@trsvax> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <6254@ihlpf.ATT.COM> Yes. Cruise missiles are probably not stoppable by any known SDI technoloy. But, since our cruise missile technology is ahead of the USSR, SDI seemed to make sense. Especially since the USSR has many more land based missiles than we do. The government has studied many ways to defend against a nuclear missile attack. There are probably many cheaper and more effective methods but most of them would not be acceptable to the public. 1b'KPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, cruise missiles .One very interesting method which comes to mind is to implant low-fallout nukes underground "upwind" of likely targets. If missiles are known to be approaching the nuke is detonated, thus send large amounts of dust and debri into the air. It is known that the re-entry shield of the war head will not withstand collisions of a high number of dust particles. Thus the war head breaks up and never detonates. I'm sure the reader can think of many draw backs to the "dust curtain" protection system. Not the least of which is the idea of purposely implanting a nuke near our own targets. But the interesting point is that there are a variety of defensive techniques. SDI is definitely not the only alternative. Nor does it defend against all likely threats. -------------------------------- 1b2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics  Thanks a lot for your contribution to my inquire about low cost graphics work stations and molecular graphics software. I will summarize your response WITHOUT the name of the contributor because I don't know if you all want to have your name attached to it. ****************************************************************************** I read your request (orgchem-list)or molecular graphics for Sun or Apollo. Unfortunately I cannot give you advice for these machines but I'd like to suggest another alternative. We are using Macintosh Computers here in Linz extensively and lately there have been announced some new Molecular Graphics Programs for these machines. I have written one myself that I am distributing for a very low price to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics other universities. There are other more expensive ones around (MacModel, Chem3D, MicroChem package) and one very cheap one (Drexel's Molecular Editor - but that's more of a toy to my opinion). The advantage of the Macintosh approach lies in the ideal integration between different software packages (transfer your molecular graphics data to a word processor or drawing or painting program without hassle|). I'm taking the liberty of sending you my product announcement following this message. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you need further information. ****************************************************************************** Sun's main molecular modeling entry is its TAAC board, which also gets a bit pricy: $20,000 or so, not including the basic Sun unit. Plusses and minuses of the TAAC: it's the simplest way to get interactive 3-D modeling that I know of; Art Olson out at Scripps (La Jolla, Calif) is using one very successfully. However, I hear it's hard to program. Tripos (Sybyl, s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics -Mendyl) has successfully ported their software to the Sun/Taac combina- tion, according to our local Sun salesman. TAAC, of course, is now a subsidiary of Sun. Apollo is sounding more and more discouraged; it probably has a good machine, but lately it's gotten so much bad press that one thinks there must be a reason. I remember when Apollo was trying to get its Unix up to AT&T's standards there was much talk about Apollo's system being quite a bit odd. Software-wise: Midas (UCSF Pharmacy) is good, runs on most anything, is quite cheap to academic institutions. Dock (Fox Chase Cancer Center, Phila- delphia) has excellent docking-powers, is also cheap, runs on VMS/E&S, not yet ported to Unix. Gemm runs on Irises; I don't know whether it runs on Suns, but I'd be surprised if it didn't. We use Biosym's Insight/Discover on VMS/E&S. The Gramps/Granny combination is excellent for film-making (Granny is from Scripps, Gramps is from Abbott Labs in Illinois), is cheap, is Unix but has been ported to VMS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics be good for drawing molecules, somewhat like Quanta, but I haven't seen it run yet. MacroModel (Columbia U.) looks like it has many interesting capa- bilities, is cheap, and says it runs anywhere, just about. In fact all the above cost from nothing to $300 to academic institutions -- except Biosym and Tripos, which charge about $6000 ******************************************************************************* You did not say in your note what graphics system you are running on now (I assume it's something a little better than a vt100 terminal??). Perhaps an Evans and Sutherland PS300 type of system? I don't think you'll get anything close to that capability running on an Apollo or a Sun. You said "we all know that it is best to run on a graphics workstation", but I think it depends a lot on what exactly a graphics workstation is, and what your application requires. For molecular modelling, you usually want real-time rotation, bs in Illinois), is cheap, is Unix but has been ported to VMS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics translation, or scaling of graphics objects, preferably done without application CPU intervention (normally these are vector objects, since to manipulate solids you *really* have to lay your wallet down!). A normal engineering workstation like a sun, apollo or vaxstation won't do this for you. Maybe this is why applications like frodo haven't been ported to normal workstations. My belief is that for molecular modelling, a really suitable graphics workstation is an Evans and Sutherland or an IRIS or similar. What's wrong with your present setup? **************************************************************************** Sometime ago I asked a similar question to yours regarding mollecular graphics software running on SUN's (I had always been in the field of image processing, so I did no know much about mollecular graphics). I explicetly asked if there were programs written using graphics standards like PHIGS. The query was done in BIOTECH, SEQUENT, UNIX- and C-FORUM about half a year ago. MS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics  The pieces of advice I got all pointed out to using a dedicated 3D workstation. The reasons were mainly that there is not much written in any graphics standard, so you are tied up to a propietary set of graphics subroutines. Furthermore, from the hardware point of view SUN does not have any 3D graphics workstation (if you have heard some thing like TAAC-1 be careful, there is no much support software for it) so the difference in "graphics" perfomance between any SUN and a SILICON G. are important, this imposes a limit in what any software can do on those platforms. One more thing, SUN has developped something called a Graphics Chemistry Workstation together with Evans&S. (at least they have talked about it in some recent graphics meeting), perhaps this might be interesting. I am interested in knowing what other responses you get from this forum, I would appreciate if you could pass me that information. HIGS. The query was done in BIOTECH, SEQUENT, UNIX- and C-FORUM about half a year ago. MS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics  **************************************************************************** In the july issue of catalyst from sun microsystems they have short descriptions af software available for sun machines... they have short things on biograph and polygraph from biodesign inc. 199 S. Los Robles Ave. suite 270 pasadena, ca 91101 (8180 793-0151 and discover a molecular simulation program from Biosym Technologies inc. 10065 Barnes Canyon rd. San diego, ca 92121 SUN and a SILICON G. are important, this imposes a limit in what any software can do on those platforms. One more thing, SUN has developped something called a Graphics Chemistry Workstation together with Evans&S. (at least they have talked about it in some recent graphics meeting), perhaps this might be interesting. I am interested in knowing what other responses you get from this forum, I would appreciate if you could pass me that information. HIGS. The query was done in BIOTECH, SEQUENT, UNIX- and C-FORUM about half a year ago. MS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics (619) 458-9990 **************************************************************************** (1) What SUN was saying at the last sisgraph has nothing to do with a SUN/4 connected to a E&S, however I have no idea how the Chemistry Workstation projects ended, and the local SUN people here know nothing about it (2) I do not think that as graphics processors SUN has nothing remotely comparable with a custom designed graphics processors, as the S.G GTX has. So they can be used for certain size of problems, but not very big. Note that SUN offers something called GPX or CPX that is a 2D graphics processors (about $20.000 here) so they know what they DO NOT have (and this is not, even, a 3D graphics processors). ome recent graphics meeting), perhaps this might be interesting. I am interested in knowing what other responses you get from this forum, I would appreciate if you could pass me that information. HIGS. The query was done in BIOTECH, SEQUENT, UNIX- and C-FORUM about half a year ago. MS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics j(3)APOLLO 10000: Has anybody ever seen such a machine in reality?. Note that they announced it before even having finished the hardware! (not to say testing....). However, in general, I am not familiar wit the APOLLOs, so I cannot say much ****************************************************************************** We do extensive computational chemistry research here using VAX, IBM 3090, and APOLLOs. I talked to the Apollo users about your question, and they said they have been talking to the company for at least 3 years about getting decent display programs. Apollo does not produce any, and there is no third party software yet that we know of. So you are in the same boat as we are... ie can number-crunch lots of results, but not display them graphically! ****************************************************************************** , I would appreciate if you could pass me that information. HIGS. The query was done in BIOTECH, SEQUENT, UNIX- and C-FORUM about half a year ago. MS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics  Here is my summary, I'm surprised to find that few molecular graphics programs to the low cost graphics work stations. The only programs for the SUN seem to have been mentioned in the July issue of Catalyst. As far as I know BIOGRAF, POLYGRAF and DISCOVER are very good programs but the price ($6500) is not too appealing. SUN graphics work stations seem to be more familiar to all of you than APOLLOs. I don't know the reason for that but if one looks at the equipment now SUN and APOLLO graphics workstations are quite similar both in the graphics and cpu-power. For the APOLLO nobody "out there" had any molecular graphics software to offer but I was able to find one. QCPE (Quantum Chemistry Program Exchange), University of Indiana is offering a package called MOLY-86 (QCPE # 528). The graphics routines are written using APOLLO GPR libray. One further advantage is that one gets the source code as well and the price is ery was done in BIOTECH, SEQUENT, UNIX- and C-FORUM about half a year ago. MS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2IpBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU molecular graphics $ 400. The MIDAS package looks interesting and I will take a look into that package in the future. I thank you all again and hope that we will keep in touch in the future as well. Yours, Leif Laaksonen w BIOGRAF, POLYGRAF and DISCOVER are very good programs but the price ($6500) is not too appealing. SUN graphics work stations seem to be more familiar to all of you than APOLLOs. I don't know the reason for that but if one looks at the equipment now SUN and APOLLO graphics workstations are quite similar both in the graphics and cpu-power. For the APOLLO nobody "out there" had any molecular graphics software to offer but I was able to find one. QCPE (Quantum Chemistry Program Exchange), University of Indiana is offering a package called MOLY-86 (QCPE # 528). The graphics routines are written using APOLLO GPR libray. One further advantage is that one gets the source code as well and the price is ery was done in BIOTECH, SEQUENT, UNIX- and C-FORUM about half a year ago. MS. Biograf (from BioDesign) is supposed to s2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on PrfThe first international conference on principles of knowledge representation and reasoning will take place on May 15-18, 1989, in Toronto. It is geared towards the more rigorous areas of AI. The intention is that the number of participants be somewhere between the few dozens of a workshop and the masses of IJCAI, say 500. This is a good opportunity to widen the bridge between AI and theory, and contributions from the theory community are solicited. Please note the early sumbission deadline. Yoav Shoham Stanford University Appendix: >> >> CALL FOR PAPERS K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr:>> >> FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON >> PRINCIPLES OF KNOWLEDGE REPRESENTATION AND REASONING >> >> Royal York Hotel >> Toronto, Ontario, CANADA >> May 15-18, 1989 >> >> Sponsored by the Canadian Society for Computational Studies of Intelligence >> -- With support from AAAI, IJCAI, the Canadian Institute for Advanced >> Research, and the Information Technology Research Centre of Ontario >> -- In cooperation with AISB[, and ACM SIGART] >> >> >> The idea of explicit representations of knowledge, manipulated by >> general-purpose inference algorithms, underlies much of the work in >> artificial intelligence, from natural language to expert systems. A growing K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr\>> number of researchers are interested in the principles governing systems >> based on this idea. This conference will bring together these researchers in >> a more intimate setting than that of the general AI conferences. In >> particular, all authors will be expected to appear and give presentations of >> adequate length to present substantial results. Accepted papers will be >> collected in a conference proceedings, to be published by Morgan Kaufmann >> Publishers, Inc. >> >> The conference will focus on principles of commonsense reasoning and >> representation, as distinct from concerns of engineering and details of >> implementation. Thus of direct interest are logical specifications of >> reasoning behaviors, comparative analyses of competing algorithms and >> theories, and analyses of the correctness and/or the computational complexity >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Prd>> >> Submissions are encouraged in at least the following topic areas: >> >> >> Analogical Reasoning Qualitative Reasoning >> Commonsense Reasoning Temporal Reasoning >> Deductive Reasoning Planning >> Diagnostic and Knowledge Representation Formalisms >> Abductive Reasoning Theories of the Commonsense World >> Evidential Reasoning Theories of Knowledge and Belief >> Inductive Reasoning Belief Management and Revision >> Nonmonotonic Reasoning Formal Task and Domain Specifications >> >> >> >> >> f engineering and details of >> implementation. Thus of direct interest are logical specifications of >> reasoning behaviors, comparative analyses of competing algorithms and >> theories, and analyses of the correctness and/or the computational complexity >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr->> REVIEW OF PAPERS >> >> >> The Program Committee will review extended abstracts (not complete papers). >> Each submission will be read by at least two members of the Committee and >> judged on clarity, significance, and originality. An important criterion for >> acceptance of a paper is that it clearly contribute to principles of >> representation and reasoning that are likely to influence current and future >> AI practice. >> >> Extended abstracts should contain enough information to enable the Program >> Committee to identify the principal contribution of the research and its >> importance. It should also be clear from the extended abstract how the work >> compares to related work in the field. References to relevant literature mus t >> be included. >> ses of the correctness and/or the computational complexity >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Prg>> Submitted papers must never have been published. Submissions must also be >> substantively different from papers currently under review and must not be >> submitted elsewhere before the author notification date (December 15, 1988). >> >> >> SUBMISSION OF PAPERS >> >> Submitted abstracts must be at most eight (8) double-spaced pages. All >> abstracts must be submitted on 8-1/2" x 11" paper (or alternatively, a4), >> and typed in 12-point font (pica on standard typewriter). Dot matrix >> printout is not acceptable. >> >> Each submission should include the names and complete addresses of all >> authors. Also, authors should indicate under the title which of the >> topic ares listed above best describes their paper (if none is >> appropriate, please give a set of keywords that best describe the >> topic of the paper). >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr>> >> Abstracts must be received no later than November 1, 1988, at the address >> listed immediately below. Authors will be notified of the Program Committee' s >> decision by December 15, 1988. Final camera-ready copies of the full papers >> will be due a short time later, on February 15, 1989. Final papers will be a t >> most twelve (12) double-column pages in the conference proceedings. >> >> >> Send five (5) copies of extended abstracts [one copy is acceptable from >> countries where access to copiers is limited] to >> >> Ron Brachman and Hector Levesque, Program Co-chairs >> First International Conference on Principles of >> Knowledge Representation and Reasoning >> c/o AT&T Bell Laboratories paper (if none is >> appropriate, please give a set of keywords that best describe the >> topic of the paper). >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr>> 600 Mountain Avenue, Room 3C-439 >> Murray Hill, NJ 07974 >> USA >> >> >> >> Inquiries of a general nature can be addressed to the Conference Chair: >> >> Raymond Reiter, Conference Chair >> First International Conference on Principles of >> Knowledge Representation and Reasoning >> c/o Department of Computer Science >> University of Toronto >> 10 Kings College Road >> Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A4 >> CANADA >> tries where access to copiers is limited] to >> >> Ron Brachman and Hector Levesque, Program Co-chairs >> First International Conference on Principles of >> Knowledge Representation and Reasoning >> c/o AT&T Bell Laboratories paper (if none is >> appropriate, please give a set of keywords that best describe the >> topic of the paper). >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr_>> electronic mail: reiter@ai.toronto.edu >> >> >> >> >> IMPORTANT DATES >> >> Submission deadline: November 1, 1988 >> Author notification date: December 15, 1988 >> Camera-ready copy due >> to publisher: February 15, 1989 >> Conference: May 15-18, 1989 >> >> >> >> >> ment of Computer Science >> University of Toronto >> 10 Kings College Road >> Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A4 >> CANADA >> tries where access to copiers is limited] to >> >> Ron Brachman and Hector Levesque, Program Co-chairs >> First International Conference on Principles of >> Knowledge Representation and Reasoning >> c/o AT&T Bell Laboratories paper (if none is >> appropriate, please give a set of keywords that best describe the >> topic of the paper). >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr7>> >> >> PROGRAM COMMITTEE >> >> James Allen (University of Rochester) >> Giuseppe Attardi (Delphi SpA, Italy) >> Woody Bledsoe (MCC/University of Texas) >> Alan Bundy (Edinburgh University) >> Eugene Charniak (Brown University) >> Veronica Dahl (Simon Fraser University) >> Koichi Furukawa (ICOT) >> Johan de Kleer (Xerox PARC) >> Herve Gallaire (European Computer Industry Research Center, Munich) >> Michael Genesereth (Stanford University) >> Michael Georgeff (SRI International) >> Pat Hayes (Xerox PARC) >> Geoff Hinton (University of Toronto) and Hector Levesque, Program Co-chairs >> First International Conference on Principles of >> Knowledge Representation and Reasoning >> c/o AT&T Bell Laboratories paper (if none is >> appropriate, please give a set of keywords that best describe the >> topic of the paper). >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]2I`THEORYNET SHOHAM@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU International Conference on Pr>> Bob Kowalski (Imperial College) >> Vladimir Lifschitz (Stanford University) >> Alan Mackworth (University of British Columbia) >> Drew McDermott (Yale University) >> Tom Mitchell (Carnegie-Mellon University) >> Robert Moore (SRI International) >> Judea Pearl (UCLA) >> Stan Rosenschein (SRI International) >> Stuart Shapiro (SUNY at Buffalo) >> Yoav Shoham (Stanford University) >> William Woods (Applied Expert Systems) >> >> ------- ity) >> Michael Georgeff (SRI International) >> Pat Hayes (Xerox PARC) >> Geoff Hinton (University of Toronto) and Hector Levesque, Program Co-chairs >> First International Conference on Principles of >> Knowledge Representation and Reasoning >> c/o AT&T Bell Laboratories paper (if none is >> appropriate, please give a set of keywords that best describe the >> topic of the paper). >> of reasoning algorithms. Papers that attempt to move away from or refute the >> knowledge-based paradigm in a principled way are also welcome, so long as >> appropriate connections are made to the central body of work in the field. >> K]7@THEORYNET iam@LFCS.EDINBURGH.AC.UK PROFESSORSHIPS AVAILABLE IN IT PROFESSORSHIPS AVAILABLE IN ITALY 33 positions as full professor are available in 18 different Universities in Italy, in Computer Science. There is no nationality nor language limitation. The competition is handled nationally by a committee which will be appointed by the Ministry of Education and is only based on Curricula Vitae (resumes). Anybody interested may ask for further information and application forms from Mariangiola Dezani or Simona Ronchi Telephone: 39 11 7712002 Email: Dezani@itoinfo.bitnet Postal: Są 7@THEORYNET iam@LFCS.EDINBURGH.AC.UK PROFESSORSHIPS AVAILABLE IN ITDepartimento de Informatica Corso Svizzera 185 Turin Italy In order to complete the application one may need some help by an italian speaking person (the signature of a notary, certifying the identity of the candidate, must be notarized (!) at an Italian Consulate). The deadline is NOVEMBER 5. As bureaucracy is slow, the procedure may take a couple of years, or more, before one can actually start teaching. Mariangiola Dezani ni or Simona Ronchi Telephone: 39 11 7712002 Email: Dezani@itoinfo.bitnet Postal: Są 7@THEORYNET iam@LFCS.EDINBURGH.AC.UK PROFESSORSHIPS AVAILABLE IN IT imento de Informatica Corso Svizzera 185 Turin Italy In order to complete the application one may need some help by an italian speaking person (the signature of a notary, certifying the identity of the candidate, must be notarized (!) at an Italian Consulate). The deadline is NOVEMBER 5. As bureaucracy is slow, the procedure may take a couple of years, or more, before one can actually start teaching. Mariangiola Dezani ni or Simona Ronchi Telephone: 39 11 7712002 Email: Dezani@itoinfo.bitnet Postal: Są :E@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 88 13:42:00 GMT From: william@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk Article-I.D.: <44400041@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1956@iscuva.ISCS.COM> >Therefore, I would say that....The primary purpose of a lightning conductor >is to CONDUCT lightning. Just like the name sez. > That is interesting. Then why is it that the rods *are* rods? Surely it would be better to try to minimise the extent of the corona effect, not to try to send it as high as possible. To accomplish this, you would put a large flat plate on the top of a building so that it only attracts lightning at short range. Is it really the corona effect that we are talking about anyway? I was kcv:E@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning and other stuff under the impression that a corona is formed from an actual local ionization caused by an extreme electric field. In the case of a lightning conductor, ionization doesn't need to occur - all you need is the electric field to be present to attract the charges in the cloud, and you get a field at any non-zero voltage. What has the corona got to do with things? ... Bill ************************************************************************ Bill Witts, CS Dept. * Nel Mezzo del cammin di nostra vita UCL, London, Errrp * mi ritrovai per una selva oscura william@cs.ucl.ac.uk * che la diritta via era smarrita. ************************************************************************ -------------------------------- kcv I have another question about lightning. This summer I was on a hiking trip in Colorado and we arrived at the top of 14005 ft Mt. of the Holy Cross in an incipient thunderstorm. There was no lightning while we were there (I was there about one millisecond!) but there were several strikes an hour later. In any event, there was a slow drizzle, and I could see streamers of rain coming down from the clouds above - all but a little evaporating before it hit us. The electic fields, however, were very intense. Two women, who previously had had tight, curly hair, (one of whom, at the beginning of the trip, smelled of a recent permanent) had their hair standing straight out, with only the tiniest kinks in it. I could hear a loud corona discharge n|JuPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Solar Energy? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 88 21:25:17 GMT From: doctor_who@oxy.edu (Jeffrey Katsumi Hombo) Article-I.D.: <1157@tiger.oxy.edu> Whatever happened to solar energy? It's used in most of our sattelites, but noone on earth cares if it exist or not for us planetbound things. Any information will be helpful, thank you. Jeff. -------------------------------- qs@bPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air|---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 88 17:58:43 GMT From: tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) Article-I.D.: <8817@ihlpb.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <16939@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> <8722@watdragon.waterloo.edu> In article <8722@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) writes: < In article <8794@ihlpb.ATT.COM> tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: < >Actually, an isolated real photon cannot convert directly to massive ^^^^^^^ < >neutrinos either. This is due simply to energy momentum conservation. < >If the neutrinos have mass, there is a Lorentz frame in which < >the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum < >conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, ----- tB @bPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air< The photon has an energy of pc , where p is its momentum and c is the < speed of light. This momentum would appear different after a Lorentz < transform, hence the redshifting and blueshifting of light. ----- This is true, but totally irrelevant. So what? How impressive! ----- < >i. e., the photon must have a rest frame. Assuming the photon is truly < >massless, it has no rest frame. Thus the decay is impossible. ----- < Your explanation seems to fall short if neutrinos have no mass. ---- Obviously. I'm talking about massive neutrinos here. Can't you read? See above. - Jim: In your various postings, you have shown little or no knowledge of basic physics. I would seriously suggest that you stop attempting >the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum < >conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, ----- tB @bPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airVto answer other people's questions about physics, and start asking your own. The people asking the questions already know more than you do. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan -------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 88 18:32:53 GMT From: tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) Article-I.D.: <8818@ihlpb.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <14661@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <14725@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> < >>[Matthew P Wiener] < >>And it is possible for a photon to interact weakly. That's what uni- < >>fication is all about. -- Jim: In your various postings, you have shown little or no knowledge of basic physics. I would seriously suggest that you stop attempting >the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum < >conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, ----- tB @bPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airF< [C. Dunn] < >This is not true. The photon only interacts electromagnetically. Because the < >W's are charged and the Z0 has a magnetic moment, photons couple to them < >electromagnetically. The only way to go from photons to nuetrinos is to go < >through a massive gauge boson intermediate state, and hence the amplitude < >is down by a factor of (Mass Nuetrino)/(Mass Boson). -- < [MPW] < So maybe my knowledge of physics jargon *is* the pits. Tell me: is this < not what weak interaction is now considered to *mean*? Going from A => B < via W/Z/H?'s??? < < Thanks for any clarification. --- A real photon can convert to a neutrino anti-neutrino pair in the presence of matter (a second particle is needed to conserve energy-momentum). The photon can convert electromagnetically to a Z0, which then decays weakly tum of the photon must be zero in this frame, ----- tB @bPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airto the neutrino pair. Strictly speaking, the photon-Z0 vertex is electromagnetic, while the Z0-neutrino vertex is weak. The overall reaction would usually be referred to as weak, rather than electromagnetic, even though the photon itself only interacts electromagnetically. This is because it is the weaker of the two interactions that dominates the characteristics of the overall reaction. Isn't semantics wonderful? -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan -------------------------------- from A => B < via W/Z/H?'s??? < < Thanks for any clarification. --- A real photon can convert to a neutrino anti-neutrino pair in the presence of matter (a second particle is needed to conserve energy-momentum). The photon can convert electromagnetically to a Z0, which then decays weakly tum of the photon must be zero in this frame, ----- tB DIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Fresnel equations ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 88 14:55:00 GMT From: shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700013@m.cs.uiuc.edu> I'm looking into the Fresnel reflection equations for a computer graphics application. Given an interface between a dielectric and a conductor, the equations will govern the amount of light reflected from the conductor. The transmitted light will be absorbed because of the free electrons. The rate of absorbtion is governed by the extintion coefficient of the conductor. Now Suppose I have an interface between two dielectrics. The index of refraction is real (no extinction coefficient), so it seems that none of the transmitted light will be absorbed. This implies {8DIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Fresnel equations that all dielectrics should be colorless and transparent (like glass). Do I have a basic misunderstanding, or are all opaque non-metals really more complicated than a simple dielectric? For example, I know that paper is really made up of many small clear fibers and a clear bonding agent. All of the dielectric interfaces reflect some of the light, and acting as a group they reflect most of the light. Wall paint is similar I understand. Are there any pure dielectrics that are opaque? And what about pigments? How do they work? Thanks, Peter Shirley University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign UUCP: {pur-ee,convex,inhp4}!uiucdcs!shirley efficient), so it seems that none of the transmitted light will be absorbed. This implies {8DIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Fresnel equations d ARPA: shirley@cs.uiuc.edu CSNET: shirley%uiuc@csnet-relay -------------------------------- anding, or are all opaque non-metals really more complicated than a simple dielectric? For example, I know that paper is really made up of many small clear fibers and a clear bonding agent. All of the dielectric interfaces reflect some of the light, and acting as a group they reflect most of the light. Wall paint is similar I understand. Are there any pure dielectrics that are opaque? And what about pigments? How do they work? Thanks, Peter Shirley University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign UUCP: {pur-ee,convex,inhp4}!uiucdcs!shirley efficient), so it seems that none of the transmitted light will be absorbed. This implies {8F>@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 88 12:52:29 GMT From: bellcore!faline!thumper!ulysses!sfsup!prj@Rutgers.EDU (P.Jayne) Article-I.D.: <3987@sfsup.UUCP> Could you folks work out whether or not lightning rods are good or bad? I live in a cottage with three rods, all connected to the same thick cable that runs down a post supporting the porch roof to the ground. All of the rods are pointed, but I can't see any extra points on them, at least from the ground. There is a tree near the house (taller than the house). So are me and my parrot going to get Kentucky-fried during some lightning storm or not? Should I use rubber sheets on my bed (snide comments not invited) and train the bird to wear rubber booties? You've got me worried. By the way, if you can get a copy of Mark Twain's short stories, there is a very funny story about lightning rod salesman that shows up fairly early in mF>@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods the collection. Twain didn't like them very much, apparently. Paul Jayne sfsup!prj -------------------------------- sses!sfsup!prj@Rutgers.EDU (P.Jayne) Article-I.D.: <3987@sfsup.UUCP> Could you folks work out whether or not lightning rods are good or bad? I live in a cottage with three rods, all connected to the same thick cable that runs down a post supporting the porch roof to the ground. All of the rods are pointed, but I can't see any extra points on them, at least from the ground. There is a tree near the house (taller than the house). So are me and my parrot going to get Kentucky-fried during some lightning storm or not? Should I use rubber sheets on my bed (snide comments not invited) and train the bird to wear rubber booties? You've got me worried. By the way, if you can get a copy of Mark Twain's short stories, there is a very funny story about lightning rod salesman that shows up fairly early in mIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 88 23:39:33 GMT From: rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) Article-I.D.: <2463@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> <8058@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> <2455@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> <8107@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In article <8107@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (David Palmer) writes: >I have looked at the paper in question (J. Phys. D 20(3):391-393), and I >have come to the conclusion that the author does not know how a railgun works The difference is exactly the point -- railguns don't seem to work like they are supposed to. The paper was not intended to confirm Mr. Palmer's understanding of theory. vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just losIt was intended to discribe the INDEPENDANTLY CONFIRMED EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS that contradict standard theory. When they built a railgun and fired it, at the high currents involved the mismatch between theory and observation "INVOLVES FACTORS IN THE THOUSANDS." It's only being found now because nobody ever tested Lorentz force law at these intense current levels before. (A little like how nowbody tested Newtons theories at high speeds for a long time.) At a seminar in Boston Graneau's competence was not at issue. His results are accepted, and confirmed. At issue were the changes neccesary in the theories to explain reality -- a reality some electromagnetic experts claim is ignored by the mainstream physicist. "The situation is more than academic bickering, since the formula [Lorentz's force law] is one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just losby the speeding projectile has also been found. Another peculiarity of high current pulses is a new kind of plasma created when the pulse jumps a gap. These pulses create an explosion which was thought to be generated by heat. Experiments by Graneau's students have shown that heat generation does not account for the force of the explosion." -- EET The only critics of replacing Lorentz's theory with Ampere's theory feel the way they do because they say Ampere doesn't do a much better job explaining the "list of experiments that show violations of normal Lorentz-Maxwell electromagnetic theory." We need to hear from experts involved in this, not from people reciting text book theory. -- Rick Wilson rick@tekfdi.TEK.COM academic bickering, since the formula [Lorentz's force law] is one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los ..{ucbvax,uw-beaver}!tektronix!tekfdi!rick -------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 88 16:31:31 GMT From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) Article-I.D.: <8153@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <568@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <2443@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> <8058@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> <2455@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> <8107@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> <2463@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> In article <2463@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM> rick@tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM (Rick Wilson) writes: >In article <8107@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (David Palmer) writes: >>I have looked at the paper in question (J. Phys. D 20(3):391-393), and I text book theory. -- Rick Wilson rick@tekfdi.TEK.COM academic bickering, since the formula [Lorentz's force law] is one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los@>>have come to the conclusion that the author does not know how a railgun works > >The difference is exactly the point -- railguns don't seem to work like >they are supposed to. NO---RAILGUNS DO NOT WORK AS GRANEAU THINKS STANDARD THEORY SAYS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO. BIG DIFFERENCE. > >The paper was not intended to confirm Mr. Palmer's understanding of theory. >It was intended to discribe the INDEPENDANTLY CONFIRMED EXPERIMENTAL >RESULTS that contradict standard theory. When they built a railgun and >fired it, at the high currents involved the mismatch between theory >and observation "INVOLVES FACTORS IN THE THOUSANDS." It's only being It is easy to find mismatches between the wrong theory and experiment. (Let's see, assuming no air resistance, rain from a 3 km hits at mach 0.75, better stay indoors.) one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los` >found now because nobody ever tested Lorentz force law at these intense >current levels before. (A little like how nowbody tested Newtons theories >at high speeds for a long time.) > >At a seminar in Boston Graneau's competence was not at issue. His Maybe it should have been. >results are accepted, and confirmed. At issue were the changes neccesary I have no quarrel with the experimental results, they are exactly what is predicted by standard theory. >in the theories to explain reality -- a reality some electromagnetic >experts claim is ignored by the mainstream physicist. > LVES FACTORS IN THE THOUSANDS." It's only being It is easy to find mismatches between the wrong theory and experiment. (Let's see, assuming no air resistance, rain from a 3 km hits at mach 0.75, better stay indoors.) one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los Why don't you read the original article instead of EET? Quoting a newspaper about scientific issues will only get you laughed at. > >The only critics of replacing Lorentz's theory with Ampere's theory feel >the way they do because they say Ampere doesn't do a much better job >explaining the "list of experiments that show violations of normal >Lorentz-Maxwell electromagnetic theory." > >We need to hear from experts involved in this, not from people reciting >text book theory. >-- We need people who know what textbook theory says to evaluate whether textbook theory works. By way of analogy, someone who says "I can 's see, assuming no air resistance, rain from a 3 km hits at mach 0.75, better stay indoors.) one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just losLprove that Moses was not the father of John the baptist: Moses was actually a woman in disguise, therefore the Bible is wrong." Will not gain much credence in theological circles, even if it is later discovered that Moses was actually a woman in disguise. (No flames please, I just wanted something far-fetched.) > > Rick Wilson > rick@tekfdi.TEK.COM > ..{ucbvax,uw-beaver}!tektronix!tekfdi!rick David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Flowers -- Just say NO!!" - Mighty Mouse >-- We need people who know what textbook theory says to evaluate whether textbook theory works. By way of analogy, someone who says "I can 's see, assuming no air resistance, rain from a 3 km hits at mach 0.75, better stay indoors.) one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwIPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SDI, railguns, and we just los$ -------------------------------- of John the baptist: Moses was actually a woman in disguise, therefore the Bible is wrong." Will not gain much credence in theological circles, even if it is later discovered that Moses was actually a woman in disguise. (No flames please, I just wanted something far-fetched.) > > Rick Wilson > rick@tekfdi.TEK.COM > ..{ucbvax,uw-beaver}!tektronix!tekfdi!rick David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Flowers -- Just say NO!!" - Mighty Mouse >-- We need people who know what textbook theory says to evaluate whether textbook theory works. By way of analogy, someone who says "I can 's see, assuming no air resistance, rain from a 3 km hits at mach 0.75, better stay indoors.) one of the pillers of relativity theory." -- EET "A discrepancy with the back electromotive force in rail coils induced vwxBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ,---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 88 21:59:46 GMT From: ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) Article-I.D.: <7251@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Reply-To: ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 22 In article <1041@mhuxh.UUCP> rsll@mhuxh.UUCP (58223-hansen) writes: >With the U.S. spending over $4 billion a year, of course the Soviets >are going full speed ahead just trying to keep up. They also are >concerned about being able to present a credible "defense", both in 5%8`xBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ;>terms of MAD and actual protection. The U.S. is not the only >country that has to worry about budget problems however, and the >Soviets are already spending more on the military than their economy >can support. Gorbachev is trying to get us to abandon SDI mainly >because it is forcing him to spend money he would rather use to >speed up changes in the civilian sector. The Soviets have been going full speed ahead since the 60s. The organization of our efforts into SDI has not changed their efforts in this technology at all. Also, they will not change their policy no matter what we do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu 234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner 5%8`xBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ;Cambridge, MA 02139 -------------------------------- nly >country that has to worry about budget problems however, and the >Soviets are already spending more on the military than their economy >can support. Gorbachev is trying to get us to abandon SDI mainly >because it is forcing him to spend money he would rather use to >speed up changes in the civilian sector. The Soviets have been going full speed ahead since the 60s. The organization of our efforts into SDI has not changed their efforts in this technology at all. Also, they will not change their policy no matter what we do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu 234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner 5%8`xE<6PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 88 18:54:26 GMT From: jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) Article-I.D.: <8812@watdragon.waterloo.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <16939@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> <8722@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <8817@ihlpb.ATT.COM> In article <8817@ihlpb.ATT.COM> tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >In article <8722@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, jwtlai@lion.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) writes: > tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >< >Actually, an isolated real photon cannot convert directly to massive >< >neutrinos either. This is due simply to energy momentum conservation. >< >If the neutrinos have mass, there is a Lorentz frame in which >< >the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum >< >conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, 7yϙ@xE<6PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air>This is true, but totally irrelevant. So what? How impressive! So why must the momentum of the photon be zero in this frame? After the Lorentz transform on the photon, its momentum could not be zero in general. The argument should have ended in contradiction then. Am I wrong? >< Your explanation seems to fall short if neutrinos have no mass. >Obviously. I'm talking about massive neutrinos here. Can't you read? >See above. By that, I meant that I had expected you to cover the case that neutrinos are massless. No need to be abusive. I am reasonable, albeit a bit egotistic. -------------------------------- is a Lorentz frame in which >< >the total vector momentum of the two neutrinos is zero. By momentum >< >conservation, the momentum of the photon must be zero in this frame, 7yϙ@ArPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin air---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Oct 88 20:08:08 GMT From: bobcoe@XAIT.Xerox.COM (Robert K. Coe) Article-I.D.: <34140@XAIT.Xerox.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <16939@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> <8722@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <8817@ihlpb.ATT.COM> In article <8817@ihlpb.ATT.COM> tan@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: [excerpts from a previous posting and sarcastic comments thereon deleted] }Jim: }In your various postings, you have shown little or no knowledge }of basic physics. I would seriously suggest that you stop attempting }to answer other people's questions about physics, and start asking your own. }The people asking the questions already know more than you do. This diatribe would be downright comical if it weren't for its insulting tone. The implicit assumption that anybody on this net knows everything there is to LArPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Making Neutrinos from thin airknow about basic physics, or can really tell how much somebody else on the net knows, would be pretty hard to prove. When someone can win the Nobel prize for something so (elegant but) thoroughly ad hoc as quantum chromodynamics, it should be obvious that the theoretical underpinnings of modern physics are pretty shaky. Maybe Jim doesn't know much about the rest mass of the neutrino. But then who does? -- => Robert K. Coe |Xerox | bobcoe@XAIT.Xerox.COM <= => Xerox Corporation |Advanced | [...!]{garp,harvard,think}!xait!bobcoe <= => 4 Cambridge Center |Information| 617-492-8860, ext 428 <= => Cambridge, MA 02142 |Technology | "Everyone should adopt a homeless dog." <= -------------------------------- ight comical if it weren't for its insulting tone. The implicit assumption that anybody on this net knows everything there is to LAuUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... 9---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Sep 88 05:29:02 GMT From: mailrus!wasatch!utah-gr!uplherc!sp7040!obie!wsccs!terry@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Every system needs one) Article-I.D.: <688@wsccs.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> In article <4301@thorin.cs.unc.edu> leech@proline.UUCP (Jonathan Leech) writes: >In article <5577@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> loci@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (loci!clb) writes: >> The biggest problem with the economics of SDI is that it is cheaper >> to build more missiles, overwhelming the system, than it is to >> improve the sheild. > > No, the biggest problem with SDI is that people both pro- and con- >are prone to making claims such as this without having such a system >implemented to provide real data. AuUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here...  No, the biggest problem is the insistance that producing a phased-array X-ray laser by multiple-output modified geometry K-Alpha reflector cavities is possible. The other possibility for an X-ray laser is multiple nuclear warheads (their power source) detonated simultaneously... even more unlikely than the phased-array approach. Never mind that the speed of light in lead (the lasing medium) is slow enough that a sufficiently energetic shockwave from the power source could defocus the whole ball of wax. Thermal-pumped (say a rocket engine) free-electron or chemical lasers are equally ridiculous, not because they are unfeasable as implements of destruction, but because their thermal profile would make them gone quickly; you can't mask 2000 degrees K. No, the only apparently feasable route is inertial weapons, such as the rail-gun systems currently being tested -- but they get the least amount AuUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... \of research dollars by far. The biggest problem with SDI economics is that the money is being poured into the wrong areas. The saddest thing is that, given the amount of money DARPA and the rest of the military heirarchy is spending, nobody is doing good fusion work anymore without it being related to "boom" instead of containment. This is made worse by the fact that, having reached break-even in 1981, nothing significant has been done lately; we could be a hell of a lot further along on something useful by then. Weapons in general are a waste unless used; use as deterrant counts, of course, but I have yet to see something concrete come out of SDI. Even if something useful is discovered, we are more likely to hear about it from Aviation Leak and Spy Technology long before it is no longer too sensitive to be used commercially. systems currently being tested -- but they get the least amount AuUPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... C >*sigh*< terry@wsccs -------------------------------- cs is that the money is being poured into the wrong areas. The saddest thing is that, given the amount of money DARPA and the rest of the military heirarchy is spending, nobody is doing good fusion work anymore without it being related to "boom" instead of containment. This is made worse by the fact that, having reached break-even in 1981, nothing significant has been done lately; we could be a hell of a lot further along on something useful by then. Weapons in general are a waste unless used; use as deterrant counts, of course, but I have yet to see something concrete come out of SDI. Even if something useful is discovered, we are more likely to hear about it from Aviation Leak and Spy Technology long before it is no longer too sensitive to be used commercially. systems currently being tested -- but they get the least amount A|OPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/30/88 r---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Oct 88 18:02:41 GMT From: pur-ee!pur-phy!piner@j.cc.purdue.edu (Richard Piner) Article-I.D.: <1496@pur-phy> Posted: Fri Sep 30, 1988 3:37 PM EDT Msg: GGII-3187-8524 From: RPARK To: WHATSNEW WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 30 September 1988 Washington, DC 1. ALVIN TRIVELPIECE RESIGNED THIS MORNING AS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF AAAS to become the Director of Oak Ridge National Laboratories and Vice President of Martin-Marietta Energy Systems, which manages Oak Ridge. The Oak Ridge Directorship has been open }A|OPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/30/88 since February of 88. Trivelpiece joined AAAS in February of 87 after stepping down as Director of Energy Research at the DOE, which supports Oak Ridge. He led the effort to persuade the President to back the Supercollider, and continued to advise the DOE on the on SSC while at the AAAS. He joined a DOE delegation in January to urge Japanese participation in the accelerator project. Martin-Marietta is a bidder to manage the SSC. 2. SHOULD THE FBI BE EXEMPT FROM LIBRARY PRIVACY LAWS? Should athletes with size 40 necks be exempt from steroid tests? When Judge Bork was being considered for the Supreme Court, a reporter revealed a list of video tapes he had rented. Revulsion over this invasion of privacy led to the introduction of a bill to bar disclosure of video rental records. In light of the FBI's recent interest in reading habits (WN 3 Jun 88), the bill was expanded to include library records. Under the "Video and Library Privacy Protection Act of 1988," such records could not be disclosed }A|OPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/30/88 without a court order. The bill has strong bipartisan support, but the FBI has powerful friends, and is lobbying hard for an amendment that would have the effect of reducing library privacy. The amendment involves a "national security letter" to libraries directing them to comply with FBI requests. There is precedent. A similar letter to banks enables the FBI to examine your bank transactions without a court order. Despite the public outcry over the FBI's snooping among the stacks, librarians at national laboratories report they still have frequent visits by FBI agents urging them to be on the lookout for "people acting strangely." One librarian complained that all physicists act strangely. 3. A "NOBEL PRIZE IN ENGINEERING" will be awarded by the National Academy of Engineering. The first Charles Stark Draper Prize, consisting of a gold medal and $350,000, will be announced in October of 1989, and biennially thereafter. Endowed by Draper Laboratory, the international prize recognizes engineering and }A|OPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/30/88 technology achievements "contributing to the advancement of human welfare and freedom." Robert White, the NAE president, noted that society tends to reward the discoverer of basic scientific principles but overlook the engineer that makes use of them. 4. GENERAL JAMES ABRAHAMSON UNEXPECTEDLY RESIGNED AS HEAD OF SDI just one day before Congress passed a Defense Authorization Bill that holds FY 89 SDI funds at about last years level. Although Congress removed many of the restrictions on SDI that led to the President's veto, little enthusiasm remains for a space-based missile defense system even in the Pentagon. Abrahamson is not interested in an SDI scaled down to ground-based interceptors. Robert L. Park (202) 232-0189 The American Physical Society y of Engineering. The first Charles Stark Draper Prize, consisting of a gold medal and $350,000, will be announced in October of 1989, and biennially thereafter. Endowed by Draper Laboratory, the international prize recognizes engineering and }A|OPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 09/30/88 "-------------------------------- ing to the advancement of human welfare and freedom." Robert White, the NAE president, noted that society tends to reward the discoverer of basic scientific principles but overlook the engineer that makes use of them. 4. GENERAL JAMES ABRAHAMSON UNEXPECTEDLY RESIGNED AS HEAD OF SDI just one day before Congress passed a Defense Authorization Bill that holds FY 89 SDI funds at about last years level. Although Congress removed many of the restrictions on SDI that led to the President's veto, little enthusiasm remains for a space-based missile defense system even in the Pentagon. Abrahamson is not interested in an SDI scaled down to ground-based interceptors. Robert L. Park (202) 232-0189 The American Physical Society y of Engineering. The first Charles Stark Draper Prize, consisting of a gold medal and $350,000, will be announced in October of 1989, and biennially thereafter. Endowed by Draper Laboratory, the international prize recognizes engineering and } =PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Dr. William Goddard and SupercK---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 03:33:39 GMT From: cgl@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Chrisopher G. Levey) Article-I.D.: <10259@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <6651@dasys1.UUCP> In <6651@dasys1.UUCP>, Tom Betz writes: I heard an NPR report today about a paper submitted to the American Chemical Society convention yesterday by a Dr. William Goddard that contained a mathematical formula he had developed from first principles that predicts the superconducting behavior of all compounds, including the temperatures at which they will become superconducting. He asks for more information on the theory. Goddard's ACS talk is probably an extension of work in his group earlier this year based on a magnon pairing mechanism for high Tc superconductivity. We x<@ =PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Dr. William Goddard and Superccurrently understand superconductivity in terms of a theory in which two electrons can feel an attractive force and form what is know as a Cooper pair. The coulomb interaction between electrons is of course repulsive, however electrons in a crystal can also be coupled through a response of the crystal. For low temperature superconductors this response involves the exchange of lattice vibrations (or phonons). You can get a feel for how this might happen with the following (very crude) model: Positive ions in the crystal tend to be attracted to an electron, bunching around it. The electron moves faster than the heavy ions can respond, and it leaves a wake of ions bunched more closely than average. Another electron feels a net attraction for this bunch of ions, and the result is a net attractive interaction between the two electrons. Most theorists believe that some pairing must also take place in the high Tc superconductors, however the phonon mediated process has been all but rulled out (it is hard to get such a high Tc with the phonon mechanism, and experiments show little effect when the frequency of lattice vibrations is changed by isotopic substitutions). Goddard's group has carried out calculations based x<@ =PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Dr. William Goddard and Supercon a coupling of pairs through spin waves, or magnons (magnetic vibrations of a sort). Based on ab initio quantum chemical cluster calculations, they believe that the each copper has a net spin of 1/2, and that these spins couple antiferromagnetically in sheets or chains (if one spin points down, its neighbor wants to point up), although the system never undergoes a transition to long range order. When the system is doped (oxidized), their calculations show that the electrons are removed not from the copper atoms, but from the oxygen atoms between the copper atoms. An oxygen pi orbital is then left with an unpaired electron, and it also has a net spin of 1/2. This oxygen spin couples ferromagnetically to the neighboring coppers (it wants to line up with both of them), thus forcing the two copper spins to line up with each other (despite their desire to point in opposite directions). The result is then that near a hole (an unpaired oxygen pi electron) the copper spins line up, but elsewhere they tend to alternate up-down-up-down... In a rather crude sense, as a hole moves in the crystal it leaves a wake of alligned spins. Another hole is then substitutions). Goddard's group has carried out calculations based x<@ =PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Dr. William Goddard and Superc;attracted to this wake as just the environment it likes. The similarity to the phonon mediated mechanism is obvious, however there are some important differences. Cooper pairs in low temperature superconductors consist of singlets--one spin up electron coupled to one spin down electron. In the magnon coupling theory, two oxygen holes with the same spin are coupled into a triplet pair (as can be deduced from the paragraph above). The coupling is p wave rather than s wave. Also, the magnons involved are apparently real magnons, whereas the phonons coupling Cooper pairs are virtual phonons (they exist for a short time allowed by uncertainty). The calculations of Goddard et. al. are appropriate and they do seem to predict the high transition temperatures. However, it is hard to believe that they could get better than an order of magnitude estimate for Tc using ab initio calculations for an effect which depends so strongly on coulomb correlations. It will be interesting to see the results presented at the ACS meeting when they are published. crude sense, as a hole moves in the crystal it leaves a wake of alligned spins. Another hole is then substitutions). Goddard's group has carried out calculations based x<@ =PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Dr. William Goddard and Superct Christopher Levey, Physics Dept., Dartmouth College c.levey@Dartmouth.EDU -------------------------------- ious, however there are some important differences. Cooper pairs in low temperature superconductors consist of singlets--one spin up electron coupled to one spin down electron. In the magnon coupling theory, two oxygen holes with the same spin are coupled into a triplet pair (as can be deduced from the paragraph above). The coupling is p wave rather than s wave. Also, the magnons involved are apparently real magnons, whereas the phonons coupling Cooper pairs are virtual phonons (they exist for a short time allowed by uncertainty). The calculations of Goddard et. al. are appropriate and they do seem to predict the high transition temperatures. However, it is hard to believe that they could get better than an order of magnitude estimate for Tc using ab initio calculations for an effect which depends so strongly on coulomb correlations. It will be interesting to see the results presented at the ACS meeting when they are published. crude sense, as a hole moves in the crystal it leaves a wake of alligned spins. Another hole is then substitutions). Goddard's group has carried out calculations based x<@ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... N---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Oct 88 23:01:04 GMT From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Michael Rogers) Article-I.D.: <61@maths.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon. In article <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) writes: >>A similiar rationale lay behind the buildup of American strategic nuclear >>forces after WW 2: the believe that nuclear deterrence was cheaper than >>conventional armies. One more believe that ended up on the garbage heap of >>history. > Well, how many major wars have we been involved in? ZERO. >The only major international war (not a civil war) is the Iran-Iraq war, >which will hopefully be de-escalating now. >{ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... > Southeast Asia wasn't exactly a storm in a teacup. By major war, I assume that you mean a global ( read Western ) conflict. But, the two large wars were initiated primarily by events within Europe ( and of course Japan ). But now we both seem to have got this peace ( or at least mutual economic hostility ) business pretty well sussed; for the first time in decades, if not longer. SDI, by encouraging a return of the preWWII isolationist mentality, may well prove to be a destabilizing influence, should international tensions rise and thus require careful mediation. Also, SDI will be act as a complete damper to economic development right through to the middle of the next century ( do *not* believe these absurdities that are termed rather whimsically as schedules by SDI fans ), right about when we shall need maximum stability as a race to cope properly with Greenhouse and all that. -- >{ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Mike Rogers, mike@maths.tcd.ie 39.16 Trinity College, Dublin University, ...staccato signals of constant information, Dublin 2, Ireland. a loose affiliation, ... (Simon) -------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 22:26:10 GMT From: fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) Article-I.D.: <71383@sun.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <1394@cbnews.ATT.COM> In article <1394@cbnews.ATT.COM>, wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) writes: > In article <1041@mhuxh.UUCP> rsll@mhuxh.UUCP (58223-hansen) writes: > And how much do you think a shielded nuclear warhead weighs ? he middle of the next century ( do *not* believe these absurdities that are termed rather whimsically as schedules by SDI fans ), right about when we shall need maximum stability as a race to cope properly with Greenhouse and all that. -- >{ PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... K Oh, about 60 pounds or less... -------------------------------- niversity, ...staccato signals of constant information, Dublin 2, Ireland. a loose affiliation, ... (Simon) -------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 22:26:10 GMT From: fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) Article-I.D.: <71383@sun.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <1394@cbnews.ATT.COM> In article <1394@cbnews.ATT.COM>, wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) writes: > In article <1041@mhuxh.UUCP> rsll@mhuxh.UUCP (58223-hansen) writes: > And how much do you think a shielded nuclear warhead weighs ? he middle of the next century ( do *not* believe these absurdities that are termed rather whimsically as schedules by SDI fans ), right about when we shall need maximum stability as a race to cope properly with Greenhouse and all that. -- >{ op@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 15:01:00 GMT From: commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Article-I.D.: <5700003@silver> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3987@sfsup.UUCP> >Could you folks work out whether lightning rods are good or bad? >By the way, if you can get a copy of Mark Twain's short stories, >there is a very funny story about lightning rod salesman that >shows up fairly early in the collection. Twain didn't like them >very much, apparently. > >Paul Jayne sfsup!prj J€ op@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods k Lightning rods really work. They don't attract lightning; they repel it. See "The Fateful Lightning," an especially good essay on history and philosophy of science by Isaac Asimov, in which he rates the invention of the lightning rod an important historical turning point. [Originally published in _Fantasy and Science Fiction_, Nov. 1973. Reprinted: _The Edge of Tomorrow_ (collected Asimov stories and essays) NY, Tom Doherty Assoc., 1986 (paperback) ISBN 0-812-53122-1.] I found this reference via a previous posting. Thanks to all who helped and to whom replies wouldn't go! -- Frank J€ op@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods rreid@gold.bacs.indiana.edu bitnet: reid@iubacs -------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 16:09:47 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <2032@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3987@sfsup.UUCP> P.Jayne writes: >Could you folks work out whether or not lightning rods are good or bad? >I live in a cottage with three rods, all connected to the same thick cable >that runs down a post supporting the porch roof to the ground. The Lightning Protection Institute recommends that the rods be a maximum of twenty feet apart on high points of the roof and projections and that J€ op@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods Kconductors be of heavy copper or aluminum cable. From your description of the cottage (and without seeing it), it sounds like you're OK. >There is a tree near the house (taller than the house). Again, the LPI recommends tree protection for any tree taller than the house and within 10 feet of it. Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- of the roof and projections and that J€`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods C---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 17:54:53 GMT From: ziegler@lznv.ATT.COM (J.ZIEGLER) Article-I.D.: <1453@lznv.ATT.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3987@sfsup.UUCP> In article <3987@sfsup.UUCP>, prj@sfsup.UUCP (P.Jayne) writes: > Could you folks work out whether or not lightning rods are good or bad? Well, all I can tell you is that I once saw an interesting demonstration on the subject at the Ontario Science Center in Toronto. One of their demos had the usual neat tricks you can do with a Van de Graaff generator, but also included a story about lightning rods. First, a model of a barn was subjected to high electrostatic potential. Lots of sparks, arcing all over the place. Next, some lightning rods were place on top of the barn and grounded. No more sparks. f `PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods  I don't know enough to guarantee that the same applies to full-sized stuff, but it made a neat demo. Of course, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo. Joe Ziegler att!lznv!ziegler -------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 20:52:00 GMT From: wsmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <21700015@m.cs.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3987@sfsup.UUCP> demonstration on the subject at the Ontario Science Center in Toronto. One of their demos had the usual neat tricks you can do with a Van de Graaff generator, but also included a story about lightning rods. First, a model of a barn was subjected to high electrostatic potential. Lots of sparks, arcing all over the place. Next, some lightning rods were place on top of the barn and grounded. No more sparks. f `PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods > >By the way, if you can get a copy of Mark Twain's short stories, there is a >very funny story about lightning rod salesman that shows up fairly early in >the collection. Twain didn't like them very much, apparently. Unless you mean this story, Herman Melville also has a story "The Lightning-Rod Man" about a lighting rod salesman. It was an satire of Calvinist preachers and well done at that. (The lightning-rod salesman/ Calvinist preacher was not the protaginist.) Bill Smith wsmith@cs.uiuc.edu uiucdcs!wsmith -------------------------------- or, but also included a story about lightning rods. First, a model of a barn was subjected to high electrostatic potential. Lots of sparks, arcing all over the place. Next, some lightning rods were place on top of the barn and grounded. No more sparks. f PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 15:54:44 GMT From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt) Article-I.D.: <2042@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Reply-To: jwm@aplvax.UUCP (Jim Meritt) Organization: JHU-Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 44 In article <1041@mhuxh.UUCP> rsll@mhuxh.UUCP (58223-hansen) writes: }For deterrent purposes it's not }necessary to turn northern Asia into a radioactive desert. ]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... No, but it may be necessary to show that you can turn Moscow into a hole with a depth of a few hundred feet. Which is where "THEY" sit. }The only credible reason for SDI that I can think of is to protect }the U.S. from the small number of missiles that might be launched by }an accident or by a Soviet missile base or sub commander acting }without orders. Is this a bad reason? I thought that some of the biggest fears were of one missle starting the end. If you can stop that one, there will be a chance for cooler heads to prevail. }>The Soviets certainly think that an SDI-like system is highly feasible. }>There is nothing that we could do to make the Soviets proceed faster }>with their system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, }>facilities, etc. } ]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... }With the U.S. spending over $4 billion a year, of course the Soviets }are going full speed ahead just trying to keep up. You don't have to worry a whole lot about "keeping up" when you are in front.... Check out the location of the only operational ABM site. (allowed by SALT, but not constructed by US). Or maybe where the operational directed energy weapons are. The Soviets have preferred power over finesse for a long time... }Soviets are already spending more on the military than their economy }can support. Gorbachev is trying to get us to abandon SDI mainly }because it is forcing him to spend money he would rather use to }speed up changes in the civilian sector. Awwwwww. heir system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, }>facilities, etc. } ]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... See? Working already, and isn't even researched yet! Disclaimer: Individuals have opinions, organizations have policy. Therefore, these opinions are mine and not any organizations! Q.E.D. jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu 128.244.65.5 (James W. Meritt) -------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 23:37:54 GMT From: ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander J Denner) Article-I.D.: <7288@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@p hoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon. <61@maths.tcd.ie> In article <61@maths.tcd.ie> mike@maths.tcd.ie (Michael Rogers) writes: e civilian sector. Awwwwww. heir system, they are at full throttle in terms of scientists, }>facilities, etc. } ]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... e> Southeast Asia wasn't exactly a storm in a teacup. > By major war, I assume that you mean a global ( read Western ) conflict. >But, the two large wars were initiated primarily by events within Europe ( and >of course Japan ). But now we both seem to have got this peace ( or at least >mutual economic hostility ) business pretty well sussed; for the first time in >decades, if not longer. > SDI, by encouraging a return of the preWWII isolationist mentality, may >well prove to be a destabilizing influence, should international tensions rise >and thus require careful mediation. Peace has been kept because of the lack of coventional military "readiness". What I mean is that the US was not in the position to send a multimillion man army anywhere in the globe. There is no need, nuclear weapons take the place of a destabilizing army. (Yes, we have RDF, but that is a relatively small number of troops (not near WWII standards).) However, now things are changing, the technology is being developed that can thwart the long reliabled upon MAD thesis. SDI, thus, is not destabilizing, but ]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... is stabilizing, considering that the Soviets are developing it as well. > Also, SDI will be act as a complete damper to economic development right >through to the middle of the next century ( do *not* believe these absurdities >that are termed rather whimsically as schedules by SDI fans ), right about when >we shall need maximum stability as a race to cope properly with Greenhouse and >all that. Well, economically, SDI is hardly a damper. The money will be put into high tech research, development, _and_ manufacturing (something we __really__ need). Anyone who knows about the space programs countless benefits would not say it hurt our economy at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu 234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner Cambridge, MA 02139 number of troops (not near WWII standards).) However, now things are changing, the technology is being developed that can thwart the long reliabled upon MAD thesis. SDI, thus, is not destabilizing, but ]PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... & -------------------------------- oviets are developing it as well. > Also, SDI will be act as a complete damper to economic development right >through to the middle of the next century ( do *not* believe these absurdities >that are termed rather whimsically as schedules by SDI fans ), right about when >we shall need maximum stability as a race to cope properly with Greenhouse and >all that. Well, economically, SDI is hardly a damper. The money will be put into high tech research, development, _and_ manufacturing (something we __really__ need). Anyone who knows about the space programs countless benefits would not say it hurt our economy at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander J. Denner ajdenner@athena.mit.edu 234 Baker House, 342 Memorial Drive mit-eddie!mit-athena!ajdenner Cambridge, MA 02139 number of troops (not near WWII standards).) However, now things are changing, the technology is being developed that can thwart the long reliabled upon MAD thesis. SDI, thus, is not destabilizing, but ]朠PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Elementary Particle Theory ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 21:33:44 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Article-I.D.: <7235@aw.sei.cmu.edu> Net folk, please could I ask a question of some expert on elementary particle theory: How accurately can we currently predict the half-life of a free neutron? A pointer to a paper would be appreciated. My (probably fairly inept) search has turned up nothing. Thanx l朠PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Elementary Particle Theory "-------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 88 21:33:44 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Article-I.D.: <7235@aw.sei.cmu.edu> Net folk, please could I ask a question of some expert on elementary particle theory: How accurately can we currently predict the half-life of a free neutron? A pointer to a paper would be appreciated. My (probably fairly inept) search has turned up nothing. Thanx lPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail =---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Oct 88 17:52:34 PDT From: knutsen (Andrew Knutsen) The following mail was sent to "physics-request" instead of "physics". By the way, I sent a note to "pur-phy" asking about the origin of the Piner reports, and got no response. Before I re-send it, has anyone found out where they come from, where else they are published, etc? Please reply via mail. Your Maintainer. -------- Date: 26 Sep 1988 10:28:47 EDT (Mon) From: Ralph Hartley 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail USubject: Rail gun research To: unix.SRI.COM!Physics-Request Message-Id: <591287327/hartley@nrl-aic.arpa> > Rail gun research > is already rewriting the electromotive force laws. (It was written > up several times in Electronic Engineering Times, but I can't find > the clippings since I cleaned my desk. Basically, experiments showed > that the relativity theorists were wrong in at least this case.) I have seen work in which I was involved written up in that publication. Its accuracy was at less than chance levels. MUCH less. If you get your technical knowledge from the EE Times, I sudgest that you continue to post to the net; writing on bathroom walls may get you in trouble. Sorry about the flamage but the article (which I will not cite to protect the guilty) Is still fresh in my mind after several years. 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail ( Proponents of space colonization commit a major error when they neglect the cost of orbiting the tons of salt needed for reading the EE Times. Opinions? My employer? Ralph Hartley You must be joking! hartley@nrl-aic.arpa Date: Mon, 26 Sep 88 19:17 EDT From: GORDON D. PUSCH Subject: RE: Making Neutrinos from thin air To: unix.SRI.COM!Physics-Request Original_To: COM%"Physics-Request@UNIX.SRI.COM",PUSCHGD Bill Smith in article <21700012@m.cs.uiuc.edu> asks: CH less. If you get your technical knowledge from the EE Times, I sudgest that you continue to post to the net; writing on bathroom walls may get you in trouble. Sorry about the flamage but the article (which I will not cite to protect the guilty) Is still fresh in my mind after several years. 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail i>What law prevents energy from being directly converted into >neutrino/anti-neutrino pairs? > >If it could, I think it would be hard to find much energy in the form >of photons, etc. It depends on what you mean by "energy". "Pure energy" a-la _Star_Trek_ and Marvel Comics does not exist. "Energy" is an attribute or degree of freedom carried by the various "particles" or "fields" (there is no meaningful distinction between the "field" and "particle" concepts anymore; "Particle Physics" and "Quantum Field Theory" have become synonomous). A photon is one such particle. Photons cannot transform *directly* into a neutrino-antineutrino pair because neutrinos (Enrico Fermi's term, meaning "little neutral ones") being electricly neutral, cannot couple to the electromagnetic field. If neutrinos are truely "massless" (i.e., have a zero "rest-mass") as 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail cphotons are thought to be, it might be possible to procede though an intermediary that couples to both, e.g.: - - - - /////////////> neutrino ~~~~~~~~~~~~>* *%%%%%%%%%>* photon + + Z0 <\\\\\\\\\\\\\ anti-neutrino + + e+/e- "loop" However this process will be very strongly suppressed, partly because of the electron and Z0's masses, but mostly kinimatically, because of lack of "phase-space": the two neutrinos must both be traveling in *exactly* the same direction as the initial photon, or energy and momentum conservation become impossible to satisfy simultaneuosly. This is still true if you allow any number of massless particles in the final state. If even a *single* massive particle appears in the final state, it ) as 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail becomes impossible, period (unless the photon actually *does* have a non-zero rest-mass, and furthermore, one which is larger than that of any of the final-state particles.) A photon may be transformed into anything else, so long as energy, momentum, and all other "additive" quantum numbers" are conserved, and if that "anything else" is capable of interacting with a photon. For example, I *cannot* turn a *single* photon (i.e., a photon in free space) into an electron-positron pair, because I cannot simultaneously conserve energy and momentum, even though this process conserves all the other additive quantum numbers. (Note: it is *NOT* because "mass" is conserved. It Isn't! It is because in Relativistic Quantum Theory, I must simultaneosly conserve *total* momentum, and *total* energy between reactants and products, and additionaly, each individual "physical" particle among the reactants and products must satisfy the "mass-shell" constraint: 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail 6 E^2 - |p|^2 * c^2 == m^2 * c^4 It is this constraint which makes it impossible for a *single* "massless" photon to decay into a pair of "massive" particles *in free space*. However if there are other particles around to interact with (such as another photon, or an atomic nucleus) then all the constraints may be satisfied, and the process is possible. (However that doesn't mean it must necessarily happen ... ) Virtual particles are particles which violate this constraint, but are otherwise identical to their "normal" analogues. They may never be directly observed, but must be transformed into "physical" particles before the interaction can be considered complete. Only "physical" particles are observable, or capable of carrying off energy and momentum from an interaction). ctants and products, and additionaly, each individual "physical" particle among the reactants and products must satisfy the "mass-shell" constraint: 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail  Gordon D. Pusch | Try using ; if that doesn't Physics Dept., VPI&SU | work, try . (our Node-Name Blacksburg VA 24061 | got changed recently ... ) +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "... Engineers ... Always *changin'* things ... | | It's like a Dam' *Computer Center* in here ..." --- L.E. McCoy, M.D. | | | | Q: How many System Programmers does it take to screw in a light-bulb? | | A: *ONE*; He holds the bulb, and the World revolves around him ... | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 88 14:46 EDT From: Subject: Re: SN1987a (I think the first posting didn't make it) among the reactants and products must satisfy the "mass-shell" constraint: 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail To: unix.SRI.COM!Physics-Request X-Original-To: COM%"Physics-Request@UNIX.SRI.COM", ALPHERR In-Reply-To: your letter rec'd 28-SEP-1988 06:06 IN RE NEUTRINOS FROM SN1987A, SEE ARTICLE IN OCT. 1988 ISSUE OF SKY AND TELESCOPE. RALPH ALPHER Date: 24 Sep 88 22:04 -0600 From: Mike Attas To: unix.SRI.COM!physics-request Message-Id: <397*attas@wnre.aecl.cdn> Subject: knocks and socks (NOx and SOx) I passed on a recent message from this discussion group (from Gordon Putsch?) mmers does it take to screw in a light-bulb? | | A: *ONE*; He holds the bulb, and the World revolves around him ... | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 88 14:46 EDT From: Subject: Re: SN1987a (I think the first posting didn't make it) among the reactants and products must satisfy the "mass-shell" constraint: 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail 5to a colleague of mine who is an atmospheric scientist. He was kind enough to reply with the following information. I know it's more chemistry than physics, but that's life... ================== From: WC5::AMIROB 23-SEP-1988 10:49:21.75 To: ATTAS CC: AMIROB Subj: ACID RAIN Mike: There are a few misconceptions that have arisen due to the need for the press to cause a hype about "acid rain". "Acid rain" can be divided into wet and dry deposition. Actually, much of the problem is caused by dry deposition. Wet deposition and the w in a light-bulb? | | A: *ONE*; He holds the bulb, and the World revolves around him ... | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 88 14:46 EDT From: Subject: Re: SN1987a (I think the first posting didn't make it) among the reactants and products must satisfy the "mass-shell" constraint: 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail associated chemistry is also a problem and there is no doubt that NOx is a major contributor. I think that the general consensus is that SOx and NOx contribute the same order of magnitude to the overall wet deposition problem (keeping in mind that atmospheric carbon chemistry makes rain naturally acidic; pH about 5.6). Actually, the greatest problem with NOx and hydrocarbons from automobiles is the formation of tropospheric ozone, which is a strong oxidant. Decreasing NOx emissions would help both the ozone problem and the wet acidic precipitation problem. SO2 emissions from smelters and power plants do cause high local and regional concentrations of SO2. SO2 is deposited to surfaces quite readily and is hydrolyzed at the soil surface and inside vegetation, as well as being deposited to lake surfaces. We think that many of the lake problems occur during acidic shocks in the spring when sulfates and nitrates deposited on the winter snow enter the lake in a short period of time. As far as the volcanic SO2 goes, it is sporadically injected into the atmosphere at high altitudes and quickly dispersed. I agree that some 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail of it contributes to acidic wet deposition but it is not in the concentrations that we find in northeast N. America or Europe, caused by industrial emissions. In severely affected areas, such as Sudbury, it is easy to plot soil pH and vegetation damage as a function of distance from smelters. I disagree that anthropogenic SO2 is not a problem, because of natural emissions. I agree that NOx is a major contributor, especially in western N. America. Scientists have been working on NOx effects in California and Arizona for a long time. We know that automobiles are a major source, and we also know that power plant SO2 is a major problem. Hope that this is of some help. I didn't see much new and exciting in the message that you received. Brian ation, as well as being deposited to lake surfaces. We think that many of the lake problems occur during acidic shocks in the spring when sulfates and nitrates deposited on the winter snow enter the lake in a short period of time. As far as the volcanic SO2 goes, it is sporadically injected into the atmosphere at high altitudes and quickly dispersed. I agree that some 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail  ================== ================== Michael Attas Analytical Science Branch Pinawa, Manitoba Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment Canada R0E 1L0 Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (204) 753-2311 Ext. 2796 Home (204) 753-8839 EMAIL: TRY THIS FIRST: attas%wnre.aecl.ca@relay.ubc.ca csnet attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@ubc.csnet OR attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@Waterloo.csnet uucp ubc-vision!ubc-ean!attas@wnre.aecl.cdn cdn attas@wnre.aecl.cdn or attas@wnre.aecl.ca bitnet attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@water or attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@water.waterloo edu attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@math.waterloo.edu some help. I didn't see much new and exciting in the message that you received. Brian ation, as well as being deposited to lake surfaces. We think that many of the lake problems occur during acidic shocks in the spring when sulfates and nitrates deposited on the winter snow enter the lake in a short period of time. As far as the volcanic SO2 goes, it is sporadically injected into the atmosphere at high altitudes and quickly dispersed. I agree that some 뾇PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM misc misaddressed mail ( -------------------------------- ==== Michael Attas Analytical Science Branch Pinawa, Manitoba Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment Canada R0E 1L0 Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (204) 753-2311 Ext. 2796 Home (204) 753-8839 EMAIL: TRY THIS FIRST: attas%wnre.aecl.ca@relay.ubc.ca csnet attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@ubc.csnet OR attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@Waterloo.csnet uucp ubc-vision!ubc-ean!attas@wnre.aecl.cdn cdn attas@wnre.aecl.cdn or attas@wnre.aecl.ca bitnet attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@water or attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@water.waterloo edu attas%wnre.aecl.cdn@math.waterloo.edu some help. I didn't see much new and exciting in the message that you received. Brian ation, as well as being deposited to lake surfaces. We think that many of the lake problems occur during acidic shocks in the spring when sulfates and nitrates deposited on the winter snow enter the lake in a short period of time. As far as the volcanic SO2 goes, it is sporadically injected into the atmosphere at high altitudes and quickly dispersed. I agree that some 뾇 THEORYNET jan@RUUINF.UUCP WG '89 Call for Papers % C A L L F O R P A P E R S WG 89 15th International Workshop on Graph-Theoretic Concepts in Computer Science June 14-16, 1989, near Aachen The 15th International Workshop WG 89 will be held at Rolduc Castle in the Netherlands, only a few miles away from Aachen, West Germany. The Workshop is intended to provide a forum for researchers interested in the study and application of graph-theoretic concepts in computer science. The Workshop covers graph-theoretic topics like structural graph theory, sequential and parallel graph algorithms and their complexity, graph-based modelling (structure of graph classes, graph-grammars), graphs and represen- < THEORYNET jan@RUUINF.UUCP WG '89 Call for Papers tations, randomness. The specific value of this Workshop is to demonstrate the applicability of graph-theoretic concepts to a broad range of application areas like databases, data structures, programming languages, software engineering, geometry and graphics, distributed systems, VLSI. The list of graph-theoretic topics and application areas is not meant to be exhaustive. The WG Workshops are well-known because of their pleasant atmosphere. There is an upper limit of about 70 participants and the location of the workshop allows for excellent scientific and personal contacts of participants. Some social events are planned. The tradition of the WG Workshops traces back to 1975. Papers will go through a strict selection process with about 30 papers being accepted for presentation and for proceedings. Proceedings will be published in the fall of 1989 by an international publishing company. Presentations and papers must be given in English.  < THEORYNET jan@RUUINF.UUCP WG '89 Call for Papers SUBMISSIONS: Please send 6 copies of your paper (15 pages maximum, not a brief abstract) to: Professor Manfred Nagl Lehrstuhl f. Informatik III RWTH Aachen Ahornstr. 55, D-5100 Aachen, West Germany Submission Deadline: March 1, 1989 Acceptance Notification: May 1, 1989 Camera-ready paper due: August 1, 1989 PROGRAM COMMITTEE: H. Bunke (Bern), B. Courcelle (Bordeaux), J. van Leeuwen (Utrecht), M. Nagl (Chairman, Aachen), H. Noltemeier (Wuerzburg), and H. J. Schneider (Erlangen). s traces back to 1975. Papers will go through a strict selection process with about 30 papers being accepted for presentation and for proceedings. Proceedings will be published in the fall of 1989 by an international publishing company. Presentations and papers must be given in English.  <$ THEORYNET lescanne@POINCARE.CRIN.FR the hardest language PI heard about a concept called the hardest language. Can someone give me references or pointers? Pierre LESCANNE Centre de Recherche en Informatique de Nancy telephone: 83 91 21 19 (country code is 33) e-mail: lescanne@poincare.crin.fr post: BP 239, F54506 VANDOEUVRE Cedex FRANCE 1^@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods N---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Oct 88 16:36:33 GMT From: jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) Article-I.D.: <2045@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3987@sfsup.UUCP> <5700003@silver> In article <5700003@silver> commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: >Lightning rods [] don't attract lightning; they repel it. > >See "The Fateful Lightning" [] by Isaac Asimov [] published in _Fantasy >and Science Fiction_, Nov. 1973. Hmmmmmmmmm........._Fantasy and Science Fiction_....hmmmmmmmmmm......... Are we to take this seriously? Come on, folks, if lightning rods repel lightning, then why is it that they are continually getting struck by lightning? Where's the proof? Where's the statistical evidence? Anybody who believes that lightning rods actually repel lightning should have YόG@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods absolutely no problem holding one up during an electrical storm. And, certainly, if everyone who believed this myth was to actually do what I suggest, there would be no proponents left to propagate it. Cheers! -- Jim Kendall Send all prank mail My boss is in full jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM to: /dev/null agreement with all uunet!iscuva!jimk of my opinions.... -------------------------------- mmmmmmm........._Fantasy and Science Fiction_....hmmmmmmmmmm......... Are we to take this seriously? Come on, folks, if lightning rods repel lightning, then why is it that they are continually getting struck by lightning? Where's the proof? Where's the statistical evidence? Anybody who believes that lightning rods actually repel lightning should have YόGKPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Asimov as physics expositor (R@---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Oct 88 21:48:04 GMT From: greg@jif.berkeley.edu (Greg) Article-I.D.: <14989@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3987@sfsup.UUCP> <5700003@silver> <2045@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In article <2045@iscuva.ISCS.COM> jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) writes: >In article <5700003@silver> commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: >>Lightning rods [] don't attract lightning; they repel it. >>See "The Fateful Lightning" [] by Isaac Asimov [] published in _Fantasy >>and Science Fiction_, Nov. 1973. >Hmmmmmmmmm........._Fantasy and Science Fiction_....hmmmmmmmmmm......... >Are we to take this seriously? The more immediate question is "Are we to take Asimov seriously?" When I first read Asimov's supposedly non-fictional essays, they were [@KPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Asimov as physics expositor (Rlinteresting but confusing. But now that I actually know quantum mechanics and special relativity, I see that when Asimov typed "The Left Hand of the Electron", as well as his other physics books, the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. He writes about many things that he doesn't understand. -- Greg -------------------------------- r> commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: >>Lightning rods [] don't attract lightning; they repel it. >>See "The Fateful Lightning" [] by Isaac Asimov [] published in _Fantasy >>and Science Fiction_, Nov. 1973. >Hmmmmmmmmm........._Fantasy and Science Fiction_....hmmmmmmmmmm......... >Are we to take this seriously? The more immediate question is "Are we to take Asimov seriously?" When I first read Asimov's supposedly non-fictional essays, they were [@GPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Oct 88 03:51:39 GMT From: uw-beaver!tektronix!percival!bucket!leonard@Cornell.ARPA (Leonard Erickson) Article-I.D.: <1085@bucket.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Organization: Rick's Home Grown Unix; Portland, OR Lines: 27 In article <1394@cbnews.ATT.COM> wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) writes: In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@p hoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon. <61@maths.tcd.ie> <7288@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> In article <7288@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> ajdenner@athena.mit.edu (Alexander ren't very pentrating, gamma in the amount in questiion isn't much of a hazrd and the nuetrons are in short supply (or the bomb would go off!). Short exposures to the bomb wouldn't be a problem. And the longterm exposures ]w GPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... J Denner) writes: > Well, economically, SDI is hardly a damper. The money will be put >into high tech research, development, _and_ manufacturing (something we >__really__ need). Anyone who knows about the space programs countless >benefits would not say it hurt our economy at all. I've often seen these spinoff arguments advanced in support of SDI. I've never given them much credence, however, for two reasons: 1) because other concerns about SDI (e.g. is it destabilizing?) are far more important (in my opinion); and 2) I recall a study, published by a group I trust (I'm sorry, I don't remember which group) indicating that large, goal-oriented projects are only one-third as efficient at generating beneficial spinoffs as direct funding of the desired technology (I believe the space program was used as a case study). (Would someone having a reference for the study please refresh my ailing memory?) ]w GPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... $-- Steve Emmerson Inet: steve@umigw.miami.edu [128.116.10.1] SPAN: miami::emmerson (host 3074::) emmerson%miami.span@star.stanford.edu UUCP: ...!ncar!umigw!steve emmerson%miami.span@vlsi.jpl.nasa.gov "Computers are like God in the Old Testament: lots of rules and no mercy" -------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 88 16:53:59 GMT From: ut-emx!ethan@cs.utexas.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) Article-I.D.: <6614@ut-emx.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@p hoenix.Princeton.EDU> <170@umigw.MIAMI.EDU> In article <170@umigw.MIAMI.EDU>, steve@umigw.MIAMI.EDU (steve emmerson) writes: > I've often seen these spinoff arguments advanced in support of SDI. > I've never given them much credence, however, for two reasons: 1) pace program was used as a case study). (Would someone having a reference for the study please refresh my ailing memory?) ]w GPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... > because other concerns about SDI (e.g. is it destabilizing?) are far > more important (in my opinion); and 2) I recall a study, published by a > group I trust (I'm sorry, I don't remember which group) indicating that > large, goal-oriented projects are only one-third as efficient at > generating beneficial spinoffs as direct funding of the desired > technology (I believe the space program was used as a case study). I can't help with the reference. However, I would be very surprised if the degree of secrecy associated with the project didn't have some effect. Classifying research seems like a good way to slow down industrial use of the results. >From that point of view one would expect SDI to be significantly less economically productive than the space program. s: 1) pace program was used as a case study). (Would someone having a reference for the study please refresh my ailing memory?) ]w GPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Musings on what I see here... Y -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy, Univ. of Texas I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU -------------------------------- he desired > technology (I believe the space program was used as a case study). I can't help with the reference. However, I would be very surprised if the degree of secrecy associated with the project didn't have some effect. Classifying research seems like a good way to slow down industrial use of the results. >From that point of view one would expect SDI to be significantly less economically productive than the space program. s: 1) pace program was used as a case study). (Would someone having a reference for the study please refresh my ailing memory?) ]w 5PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (was---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Oct 88 21:33:42 GMT From: attcan!utzoo!utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-di!leibniz!hwt@UUNet.UU.NET (Henry Troup) Article-I.D.: <174@leibniz.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 13 > how much does a shielded nuclear weapon weight ? While I don't have exact figures (they're classified), some sizable 100 Kton say, nukes are quite portable - 50 lb or less. _Q5PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (was A 1-megaton bomb can be fired from a 14inch gun, for example. -- Henry Troup Bell Northern Research - not their opinions, however utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-di!leibniz!hwt -------------------------------- -To: Article(s) <1140@sri-arpa.ARPA> <3701@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <7143@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <570@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> <7167@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <629@jupiter.iis.UUCP> <7203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 13 > how much does a shielded nuclear weapon weight ? While I don't have exact figures (they're classified), some sizable 100 Kton say, nukes are quite portable - 50 lb or less. _Q ܀PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Uncertainty Principal ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Oct 88 13:04:51 CDT From: PHBING%LSUVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Oct 88 09:56:00 CDT from uncertainty principle states that delt(x)*delt(p)>h/2. it is not a mathmetical unit. instead, it is a conseqence of the fourier transform. -------------------------------- a_ KPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (wasE---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 88 14:30:00 GMT From: commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Article-I.D.: <5700004@silver> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <174@leibniz.UUCP> > how much does a shielded nuclear weapon weight ? While browsing through army field manuals in a surplus store, I found one on how to use "atomic demolition munitions" (ADM). The smallest is 0.01 kt (10 tons of TNT), and is the size of a gallon paint can. Scary, huh? (Sorry, I don't remember the FM number or publication date of the book.) cˀ KPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (wasO-- Frank reid@gold.bacs.indiana.edu -------------------------------- 8 14:30:00 GMT From: commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Article-I.D.: <5700004@silver> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <174@leibniz.UUCP> > how much does a shielded nuclear weapon weight ? While browsing through army field manuals in a surplus store, I found one on how to use "atomic demolition munitions" (ADM). The smallest is 0.01 kt (10 tons of TNT), and is the size of a gallon paint can. Scary, huh? (Sorry, I don't remember the FM number or publication date of the book.) cˀ瑝BIOTECH ACRC0008@UNLVM image analysis of 2-d gels Does anyone have experience with BioImage software or a Visage 110 system for computerized image analysis of 2-d gels using a Sun3/150? Can you provide addresses and telephone numbers for the vendors. And are there better systems for this type of analysis? thanks--gerald kutish 瑝f:ATHEORYNET dadoun@CS.UBC.CA CICSR Distinguished Lecture SezThe Centre for Integrated Computer Systems Research (CICSR) at the University of British Columbia has planned a distinguished lecture series for the 1988-89 academic year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor David Dobkin, Computer Science Department, Princeton University Computational Geometry and Computer Graphics: Life on the Interface TIME: Thursday, October 13th, 1988 at 11:30 am PLACE: Room 104, Henry Angus Building, University of British Columbia f:ATHEORYNET dadoun@CS.UBC.CA CICSR Distinguished Lecture SeF ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tentatively scheduled upcoming speakers include: Professor Tom Leighton (Dec. 1), Professor David Cheriton (Feb. 2), Professor Bill Reeves (Late Feb. or early March), and Professor Alan Borodin (Late March). e Department, Princeton University Computational Geometry and Computer Graphics: Life on the Interface TIME: Thursday, October 13th, 1988 at 11:30 am PLACE: Room 104, Henry Angus Building, University of British Columbia fATHEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU Date: 6 Oct 1988 10:37-EST From: mishra@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Prateek Mishra) Subject: Simplifying sets of inclusions.. Message-Id: <592151840/mishra@sbstaff2> Simplifying sets of inclusions representing constraints _________________________________________________ I am looking for references for the following problem: BACKGROUND: Let R be a finite set of inclusion statements of the form "a <= b" over a set of Observable variables {o1,o2,...,om} and Internal Variables {i1,i2,i3,...,ip}. Let V be an arbitrary partially ordered set of values and I a set of bindings (functions from Observable and Internal Variables into V). Binding i satisfies R iff ւt``fATHEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU every inclusion statement "a <= b" in R holds under i (i.e. the statement i(a) <= i(b) holds in V). Let I(R) be the set of bindings that satisfy R. Bindings i1, i2 are observation equivalent iff they agree on the entire set of observable variables. Binding sets I1 and I2 are observation equivalent iff for each binding in I1 there is an observation equivalent binding in I2 and for each binding in I2 there is an observational equivalent binding in I1. Inclusion sets R and S are observation equivalent iff I(R) and I(S) are observation equivalent. QUESTION: (i) Given inclusion sets R and S determine whether they are observation equivale tisfies R iff ւt``fATHEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU  (ii) Given inclusion set R does there exist a unique minimal inclusion set R' observation equivalent to R? If so, how hard is it to compute R'? INTUITION: The idea here is that R describes a constraint on the possible values for observable variables. Ex1. R = {o1 <= i1, o2 <= i1} any bindings for o1 and o2 are such that they have a common predecessor value i1 Many sets may have equivalent information; for instance R in Ex1 above is equivalent to S= {o1 <=i1, o2 <=i1, o1 <= i3, i4 <= i3, i4 <= i5, o2 <= i5} e observation equivalent. QUESTION: (i) Given inclusion sets R and S determine whether they are observation equivale tisfies R iff ւt``fATHEORYNET THEORYNT%YKTVMX.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU I am looking for methods that could determine that inclusion set S above was ``redundant'' and simplify it to R. Thanks, - prateek mishra mishra@sbcs.sunysb.edu here is that R describes a constraint on the possible values for observable variables. Ex1. R = {o1 <= i1, o2 <= i1} any bindings for o1 and o2 are such that they have a common predecessor value i1 Many sets may have equivalent information; for instance R in Ex1 above is equivalent to S= {o1 <=i1, o2 <=i1, o1 <= i3, i4 <= i3, i4 <= i5, o2 <= i5} e observation equivalent. QUESTION: (i) Given inclusion sets R and S determine whether they are observation equivale tisfies R iff ւt``fE}ԀTHEORYNET christos%cs@UCSD.EDU Best Student Paper Award for 1This is an addendum to the Call for Papers for the 1989 Symposium on the Theory of Computing, which appeared recently on TheoryNet. SIGACT has established a Best Student Paper Award for STOC. It will be awarded to the best paper (as judged by the program committee) all of whose authors are students. The amount ofg the award is $500. Student authors submitting their abstract to the program committee should indicate in the letter of submittal that they are eligible and wish to be considered for the prize. Christos Papadimitriou PS: STOC 89 will be held from Monday to Wednesday, May 15-17 1989 (and not 14-16, as was mistakenly announced in the call on TheoryNet). CHP. p fHPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods ---------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: "Randall_Smith.EuroPARC"@Xerox.COM Date: 6 Oct 88 02:16:40 PDT (Thursday) From: "Randall_Smith.EuroPARC"@Xerox.COM The emerging explanation is that a lightning rod prevents local lightning from happening ... *not* that it "gets in the way" as a kind of "lightning shield". This is similar to how my umbrella protects me from rain. (Is there such a thing as "coronal dryness discharge"?) -------------------------------- "fKPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM QMC Instruments Ltd. -- "BAT D4---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 88 23:04:28 GMT From: annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) Article-I.D.: <12599@oberon.USC.EDU> This is a serious request ... not a joke ... I am trying to find this item: K200 Complete Bat Detector with tunable ultrasound $ 1464 generator: QMC Instruments Ltd. I am told the original quote for this item might have been obtained from a company in England. However, since that time the documentation about this instrument has been misplaced. Could someone give me a clue (telephone no or address) about how to find this thing? Does anyone have a one of these in working condition that they would be willing to part with at discount? Thanks, AJ Annala, Psychology Dept, Mail Code 1061, USC, LA, CA 90089-1061 %dfKPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM QMC Instruments Ltd. -- "BAT D& -------------------------------- -------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 88 23:04:28 GMT From: annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) Article-I.D.: <12599@oberon.USC.EDU> This is a serious request ... not a joke ... I am trying to find this item: K200 Complete Bat Detector with tunable ultrasound $ 1464 generator: QMC Instruments Ltd. I am told the original quote for this item might have been obtained from a company in England. However, since that time the documentation about this instrument has been misplaced. Could someone give me a clue (telephone no or address) about how to find this thing? Does anyone have a one of these in working condition that they would be willing to part with at discount? Thanks, AJ Annala, Psychology Dept, Mail Code 1061, USC, LA, CA 90089-1061 %dfS֞PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Anti-SDI Research ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Oct 88 09:29 EST From: X-Original-To: physics@unix.sri.com, INS_ATGE Allow me to start out by noting I'm not very fond of SDI because I see it as being destabilizing to the peace of fear which exists now between the superpowers. But anyway, if we are going to put "death stars" in space, I feel it should be primarily ASAT weapons to wipe out any Soviet SDI system. ASAT weapons should be much easier to build than anti-ICBM devices, and they can be fully tested. At the same time, research should be done into "nuclear terrorist" shemes, namely bomb delivery routes which are SDI-proof. As Glastnost begins to open up U.S. and Soviet relations, it should be much easier to smuggle in hundreds of strategically placed devices which could be detonated at a moment's radio notice. )o`fS֞PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Anti-SDI Research R In addition, there is a need for increased "intelligence" penetration of the Soviet SDI research to place agents in positions where they can destroy vital research equipment and prototype devices. Again, it is much easier to destroy a DoD-sponsored university project than a Soviet research project, but with the proper funding, I'm sure the CIA can pull it off. ...because if we don't begin anti-Soviet-SDI measures, the Soviets will begin anti-US-SDI measures... or perhaps we should just call the entire thing off? -Thomas G. Edwards -------------------------------- y tested. At the same time, research should be done into "nuclear terrorist" shemes, namely bomb delivery routes which are SDI-proof. As Glastnost begins to open up U.S. and Soviet relations, it should be much easier to smuggle in hundreds of strategically placed devices which could be detonated at a moment's radio notice. )o`f\_PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Earth's Magnetic Field t---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 88 18:20:00 GMT From: carroll@s.cs.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <218000002@s.cs.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <122@avatar.UUCP> If I remember correctly, the Earth's magnetic field is about .5 gauss, with small variations (< 1%?) around the globe. -------------------------------- ,/yU@THEORYNET ashok@IBM.COM PODS-89 Symposium - Address foThe IBM T. J. Watson Research Center uses a P.O. Box address. However, express delivery companies such as Airborne, Federal Express, UPS etc. do not normally deliver to P.O. Boxes (the US Mail will deliver to P.O. Boxes with its Express Mail service). When using express delivery carriers, the address IBM T. J. Watson Research Center P.O. Box 218 Yorktown Heights, NY 10598 can be replaced by: IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Route 134 and Kitchawan Road Yorktown Heights, NY 10598. This may be used, for example, when submitting abstracts for the 8th PODS symposium - a copy of the call is attached. ------------------------- ٱ@/yU@THEORYNET ashok@IBM.COM PODS-89 Symposium - Address fo Call for Papers Eighth ACM SIGACT-SIGMOD-SIGART Symposium on PRINCIPLES OF DATABASE SYSTEMS (PODS) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 29-31, 1989 Extended Abstracts due October 10, 1988 The conference will cover new developments in both the theoretical and practical aspects of database and knowledge-base systems. Papers are solicited which describe original and novel research about the theory, design, specification, or implementation of database and knowledge- base systems. Some suggested, although not exclusive, topics of interest are: ------------------------- ٱ@/yU@THEORYNET ashok@IBM.COM PODS-89 Symposium - Address focomplex objects, concurrency control, database machines, data models, data structures, deductive databases, dependency theory, distributed systems, incomplete information, knowledge representation and reasoning, object-oriented databases, performance evaluation, physical and logical design, query languages, query optimization, recursive rules, spatial and temporal data, statistical databases, and transaction management. You are invited to submit eleven copies of a detailed abstract (not a complete paper) to the program chairman: Ashok K. Chandra - PODS IBM T. J. Watson Research Center P.O. Box 218 Yorktown Heights, NY 10598. ashok@ibm.com (914) 945-1752. ٱ@/yU@THEORYNET ashok@IBM.COM PODS-89 Symposium - Address fo{Submissions will be evaluated on the basis of significance, originality, and overall quality. Each abstract should 1) contain enough information to enable the program committee to identify the main contributions of the work; 2) explain the importance of the work - its novelty and its practical or theoretical relevance to database and knowledge-base systems; and 3) include comparisons with and references to relevant literature. Abstracts should be no longer than ten double-spaced pages. Deviations from these guidelines may affect the program committee's evaluation of the paper. Program Committee Catriel Beeri Daniel J. Rosenkrantz Ashok K. Chandra Oded Shmueli Hector Garcia-Molina Victor Vianu Michael Kifer William E. Weihl Teodor C. Przymusinski Carlo Zaniolo ٱ@/yU@THEORYNET ashok@IBM.COM PODS-89 Symposium - Address fo; The deadline for submission of abstracts is OCTOBER 10, 1988. Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection by December 7, 1988. The accepted papers, typed on special forms, will be due at the above address by January 11, 1989. All authors of accepted papers will be expected to sign copyright release forms. Proceedings will be distributed at the conference, and will be subsequently available for purchase through the ACM. General Chair: Local Arrangements Chair: Avi Silberschatz Tomasz Imielinski Computer Science Department Dept. of Computer Science Univ. of Texas at Austin Rutgers University Austin, Texas 78712 New Brunswick, NJ 08903 avi@sally.utexas.edu imielinski@rutgers.edu liam E. Weihl Teodor C. Przymusinski Carlo Zaniolo ٱ@/6 PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Determinism vs. Indeterminism,---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 88 00:28:16 GMT From: soleil!peru@Rutgers.EDU (Dave Peru) Article-I.D.: <412@soleil.UUCP> It can be determined from the current physical evidence that the Universe is indeterministic. As we discover each new layer of reality, and continue to find the Universe is indeterministic, then in a sense, the Universe will always be deterministic. -------------------------------- "E$`/ @PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Here's one ... B---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 88 00:29:23 GMT From: soleil!peru@Rutgers.EDU (Dave Peru) Article-I.D.: <413@soleil.UUCP> Here's one for all you mental masturbators out there: Have you ever thought about what the brain is doing between thoughts? -------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 88 12:19:19 GMT From: mailrus!ukma!gatech!bbn!aoa!carl@Rutgers.EDU (Carl Witthoft) Article-I.D.: <458@aoa.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <413@soleil.UUCP> In article <413@soleil.UUCP> peru@soleil.UUCP (Dave Peru) writes: /X/ @PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Here's one ... >Here's one for all you mental masturbators out there: > >Have you ever thought about what the brain is doing between thoughts? Easy: writing c-code. -- Alix' Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) " Axis-navigo, ergo sum." {ll-xn,spdcc,...}!bbn!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201 "disclaimer? I'm not a doctor, but I do have a Master's Degree in Science!" -------------------------------- 8@aoa.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <413@soleil.UUCP> In article <413@soleil.UUCP> peru@soleil.UUCP (Dave Peru) writes: /X/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Magnetism in Money $---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 88 03:43:22 GMT From: chenj@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (James Chen) Article-I.D.: <32800@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> I read in the New York Times that vending machines are being made which can take bills. They verify the legitimacy of the bills electronically by measuring the magnetism in the ink. Does anyone know more about this? I never knew money was magnetic. I've never been able to attract any. -Jimmy Chen (chenj@acf2.nyu.edu) -------------------------------- Qa/&PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lightning rods ]---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 88 12:34:27 GMT From: bellcore!faline!thumper!ulysses!sfsup!prj@Rutgers.EDU (P.Jayne) Article-I.D.: <4029@sfsup.UUCP> Thanks to all who responded to reassure me that the lightning rods on my cottage are good things to have there in a thunderstorm. Too bad the TV antenna is higher than the rods, but so far no one running for office has said "May lightning strike me if I'm lying..." so I guess I'm okay. I suppose I should check for radon now. Thanks again, Paul Jayne -------------------------------- `/APHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Water rockets ---------------------------------------------------------------- Via: UK.AC.LON.UMDS.UXG; 7 OCT 88 17:20:18 BST Date: 7 Oct 1988 17:15:04-WET From: Julian Daley I missed all the stuff about making rockets out of plastic bottles and H2O. I can't find the postings in the notebooks either. Could some kind person give me a run-down of what it's all about ? Many Thanks, Julian Daley, Guy's Hospital, London, England. -------------------------------- D/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lifetime of the free neutron Z---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 88 13:42:01 PDT From: katz@venera.isi.edu (Alan Katz) Posted-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 88 13:42:01 PDT Cc: Physics@unix.SRI.COM We can "predict" free neutron decay quite accurately: The main decay mode for the neutron is Beta decay (via the weak interaction) to a proton and electron: 0 + - n --> p + e + neutrino This is well understood in terms of the old V-A theory and also in terms of the newer Weinberg-Salam model which "explains" the V-A t@/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lifetime of the free neutron Dtheory of the weak interaction in terms of SU2 X U1 broken symmetry. A text I have which shows the half-life calculation in terms of V-A is: Commins, E, Weak Interactions, McGraw Hill, first ed., 1973 You will probably want to look at the lastest edition; this book was completely revised a while back to include Weinberg-Salam (I only have the earlier edition). There are references in that book to the original theoretical work and to experimental measurements. The reason "explains" and "predicts" are in quotes above, is that both V-A and the Weinberg-Salam have at least one parameter which has to have a particular value in order for theory to agree with experiment. (For V-A it is two coupling constants, for Weinberg-Salam it is the Weinberg angle). We don't know "why" these parameters have the value t@/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lifetime of the free neutron they do and only know what their value is through observations of things like the neutron half-life (and lots of other experiments). Perhaps in the future, some new unified theory will explain why the various coupling constants in physics have the value they do. [For those who don't know, the Weinberg-Salam model is the one which explains not only the weak force, but unifies it with the electromagnetic force. It predicts the W and Z heavy bosons, which where observed a while back. Weinberg, Salam, and Glashow (sp?) received the Nobel prize for developing it.] P.S. V-A above stands for vector minus axial current, not someone's name. Alan th experiment. (For V-A it is two coupling constants, for Weinberg-Salam it is the Weinberg angle). We don't know "why" these parameters have the value t@/PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Lifetime of the free neutron ( -------------------------------- s through observations of things like the neutron half-life (and lots of other experiments). Perhaps in the future, some new unified theory will explain why the various coupling constants in physics have the value they do. [For those who don't know, the Weinberg-Salam model is the one which explains not only the weak force, but unifies it with the electromagnetic force. It predicts the W and Z heavy bosons, which where observed a while back. Weinberg, Salam, and Glashow (sp?) received the Nobel prize for developing it.] P.S. V-A above stands for vector minus axial current, not someone's name. Alan th experiment. (For V-A it is two coupling constants, for Weinberg-Salam it is the Weinberg angle). We don't know "why" these parameters have the value t@/-`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (was---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Oct 88 16:15:38 GMT From: cunyvm!nyser!itsgw!imagine!rpics!franklin@psuvm.bitnet (W. Randolph Franklin WRF) Article-I.D.: <1339@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <174@leibniz.UUCP> <5700004@silver> In article <5700004@silver> commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: >> how much does a shielded nuclear weapon weight ? > I have a feeling that an unstated goal behind the search for transuranic elements is that they might find something with a very small critical mass that is creatable in macroscopic quantities. Can anyone verify? ------------ rk/-`PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (wasWm. Randolph Franklin, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (518) 276-6077, Franklin@turing.cs.rpi.edu #! rnews -------------------------------- tnet (W. Randolph Franklin WRF) Article-I.D.: <1339@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <174@leibniz.UUCP> <5700004@silver> In article <5700004@silver> commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: >> how much does a shielded nuclear weapon weight ? > I have a feeling that an unstated goal behind the search for transuranic elements is that they might find something with a very small critical mass that is creatable in macroscopic quantities. Can anyone verify? ------------ rkxIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  AIList Digest Sunday, 9 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 95 Here we go again (please read) Announcements: Computer Othello Tournament 2nd Generation Expert Systems 1989 Summer Computer Simulation Conference Washington Neural Network Society Meeting 3rd Intl. Conference on Genetic Algorithms AAAIC '88 Annual Survey of AI Applications to Law and Taxation CLP mailing list H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  conceptual structures news group ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 88 22:05 EDT From: AILIST-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU Subject: Here we go again (please read) Hardware difficulties with the distribution machine have interrupted AIList service for the past week; apologies to all. Unfortunately, the problem has not been completely resolved and may reoccur. Just a reminder about addresses: Postings: AILIST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 Admin: AILIST-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU The list is moderated so there is no harm done if you send to the 'wrong' address; it simply makes it easier for me to keep organized. Keep those Subject: lines clear and to the point ... Don't expect instant turnaround - I try not to send out a digest unless I have at least four messages on the same topic. It can take awhile for this many to accumulate. Please let me know how you feel about my choice of topics, and the assignment of messages thereto. Getting the amount of traffic *down* and the signal-to-noise ratio *up* is currently a high priority. The next few days will be extra busy as I start moving out accumulated material, so please bear with me. Cheers, H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  - nick ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 88 16:11:25 GMT From: tank!ncar!noao!asuvax!nud!mcdchg!clyde!watmath!csc@oddjob.uchica go.edu (Wade Richards) Subject: Computer Othello Tournament The Fifth Annual University of Waterloo Computer Science Club Computer Othello Tournament any to accumulate. Please let me know how you feel about my choice of topics, and the assignment of messages thereto. Getting the amount of traffic *down* and the signal-to-noise ratio *up* is currently a high priority. The next few days will be extra busy as I start moving out accumulated material, so please bear with me. Cheers, H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  When: Saturday, November 12, 1988, 9:00 am EST. Where: University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario. Math and Computer Building. (Room to be announced.) Who: Anyone. Why: To encourage programming for purposes other than completing CS assignments. The competition is open to anyone and everyone. Each entrant is required to have written a non-commercial computer program which plays the game of Othello. The programs may run on any computer that: e assignment of messages thereto. Getting the amount of traffic *down* and the signal-to-noise ratio *up* is currently a high priority. The next few days will be extra busy as I start moving out accumulated material, so please bear with me. Cheers, H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 ] a) the competitor can transport to or dial up from the competition site; or b) is available for use by the Computer Science Club. These include a VAX running 4.3BSD, an IBM 4341 running VM/CMS, a Hewlett-Packard 9000 series 200 running HP-UX (similar to System III Unix), and an IBM PC running MS-DOS. The program may be written in any computer language, or implemented in hardware if so desired. Players who are unable to play in person can transmit their moves via bitnet or telephone, or send their program to us. We will appoint a proxy if needed to run your program for you. If you choose to send your program in, please ensure that it will run on a different system without problems. We will accept either executable or source, but source has a much better chance of working. H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 It must be bug free, with complete implementation details. The clearer your documentation is, the better chance we have of successfully compiling your program. Although we will make every reasonable effort, the CSC cannot guarantee your program's operation. In the event that we cannot run your program, we will refund your entry fee. The games will be run under international Othello rules, with each player allotted 30 minutes of playing time per match. The competition will be organized as a Swiss system tournament. A trophy will be provided by the Computer Science Club to the top finisher in the competition, and the winner's name will be inscribed on the permanent tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 Farticle; if you are interested in competing, please fill it out and return it. Those who wish to submit source must have their entry in by Oct. 29, 1988 accompanied by the code. The deadline for other entries is November 5, 1988. If we have to run your executable, it must be in by this date as well. For complete rules or more information, please contact: Computer Science Club MC 3037 University of Waterloo 200 University Avenue West Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3G1 nce Club to the top finisher in the competition, and the winner's name will be inscribed on the permanent tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  (519) 885-1211 ext. 3870 {uunet,clyde,utai}!watmath!csc ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 88 16:59:30 GMT From: mcvax!inria!crcge1!david@uunet.uu.net (Marc David) Subject: 2nd Generation Expert Systems AVIGNON 89 ---------- Ninth International Workshop: Expert Systems & their Applications Avignon - France, May 29 - June 2, 1989. Specialized Conference on: MC 3037 University of Waterloo 200 University Avenue West Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3G1 nce Club to the top finisher in the competition, and the winner's name will be inscribed on the permanent tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 m SECOND GENERATION EXPERT SYSTEMS =================================== Call for Papers Following the first session on Second Generation Expert Systems organized during the 12th IMACS Congress (Paris, July 18-22, 88), a second specialized conference is organized during Avignon'89. Second Generation Expert Systems are able to combine heuristic reasoning with deeper reasoning, based on a model of the problem domain. The conference will emphasize practical and theoretical issues relating to the cooperation of these two kinds of reason- mpetition, and the winner's name will be inscribed on the permanent tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 ing. TOPICS INCLUDE: --------------- - integration of different reasoning techniques; - architecture (preferably implemented) for combining heuristic reasoning and model-based reasoning; - cooperation of multiple expertise; - application of cooperative reasoning to real-world problems (e.g. diagnosis, control, planing, design); - the use of qualitative, causal or temporal reasoning tech- niques to augment heuristic reasoning; - integration of qualitative and quantitative reasoning. In addition to technical quality, papers will be evaluated by their potential to contribute to achieving the goals of Second will be inscribed on the permanent tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 Generation Expert Systems. SUBMISSION: ----------- Submit 6 copies of full-length papers (no longer than 5000 words; about 20 double-spaced pages) before December 12, 1988 to: ----------------- Jean-Claude Rault - Avignon'89; EC2; 269-287 rue de la Garenne 92000 Nanterre; France tel: 33 - 1 - 47.80.70.00 fax: 33 - 1 - 47.80.66.29 PROGRAM COMMITTEE: integration of qualitative and quantitative reasoning. In addition to technical quality, papers will be evaluated by their potential to contribute to achieving the goals of Second will be inscribed on the permanent tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 ------------------ chairman: Jean-Marc David Laboratoires de Marcoussis route de Nozay 91460 Marcoussis; France tel: 33 - 1 - 64.49.14.89 fax: 33 - 1 - 64.49.06.94 Alice Agogino (University of California at Berkeley; USA); Bert Bredeweg (University of Amsterdam; The Netherlands); B. Chandrasekaran (Ohio State University; USA); Marie-Odile Cordier (Universite de Rennes; France); Jean-Luc Dormoy (Etudes et Recherches EDF; France); Jean-Paul Krivine (Sedco Forex Schlumberger; France); Benjamin Kuipers (University of Texas at Austin; USA); Robert Milne (Intelligent Applications; UK); tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  Richard Pelavin (Philips Laboratories; USA); Olivier Raiman (Centre Scientifique IBM; France); Reid Simmons (Carnegie-Mellon University; USA); Luc Steels (Vrije Universiteit Brussel; Belgium); Jon Sticklen (Michigan State University; USA); Pietro Torasso (Universita di Torino; Italy); Louise Trave (LAAS-CNRS; France). ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 88 23:15:34 GMT From: killer!pollux!ti-csl!home!sullivan@eddie.mit.edu (Mike Sullivan) Subject: 1989 Summer Computer Simulation Conference ------------------------------------------------------ Call For Papers rt Milne (Intelligent Applications; UK); tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  Summer Computer Simulation Conference Austin, Texas July 24-27, 1989 The 1989 Summer Computer Simulation Conference to be held in Austin, Texas, July 24-27 is looking for abstracts in the area of Knowledge Based Systems and Simulation. Topics we are looking for include the areas of: o Knowledge Based Simulation Theory o Intelligent Simulation Systems o Knowledge Based Simulation Tools o Knowledge Based Systems using Simulation o Knowledge Representation for Simulation o Intelligent Simulation Control Architectures o Applications of Simulation Techniques to Knowledge ; tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  Based Systems o Interactions Between Conventional Simulations and Knowledge Based Systems Please send your one page abstract to: Society for Computer Simulation P.O. Box 17900 4838 Ronson Court, Suite 'L' San Deigo, CA 92117-7900 ATTN: Group XIII. Please include your name, organization, address and netaddress (if available). Deadline for abstracts is November 1, 1988. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 88 23:18:58 EDT ation o Knowledge Representation for Simulation o Intelligent Simulation Control Architectures o Applications of Simulation Techniques to Knowledge ; tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 From: weidlich@ludwig.scc.com (Bob Weidlich) Subject: Washington Neural Network Society Meeting The Washington Neural Network Society First General Meeting October 12, 1988 7:00 PM Speaker: Fred Weingard Booz, Allen & Hamilton, Inc. Arlington, Virginia. Neural Networks: Overview and Applications Neural networks and neurocomputing provide a novel and promis- 58 EDT ation o Knowledge Representation for Simulation o Intelligent Simulation Control Architectures o Applications of Simulation Techniques to Knowledge ; tournament trophy. There will also be an award for the top undergraduate finisher from the University of Waterloo. Entry fee for the competition will be $5.00 (Canadian) for Club members and $7.00 (Canadian) for others. An entry form follows in the next H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 @ing alternative to conventional computing and artificial in- telligence. Conventional computing is characterized by the use of algorithms to solve well-understood problems. Artifi- cial intelligence approaches are generally characterized by the use of heuristics to obtain good, but not necessarily best, solutions to problems whose solution steps are not so well-understood. In both approaches, knowledge representions or data structures to solve the problem must be worked out in advance and a problem domain expert is essential. These ap- proaches result in systems that are brittle to unexpected in- puts, cannot adapt to a changing environment, and cannot easi- ly take advantage of parallel hardware architectures. Neural network systems, in contrast, can learn to solve a problem by exposure to examples, are naturally parallel, and are ``robust" to novelty. In this talk Fred Weingard will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 Ytion of such models to three difficult real-world problems -- radar signal processing, optimal decisionmaking, and speech recognition. Fred Weingard heads the Neural Network Design and Applications Group at Booz, Allen & Hamilton. Prior to joining Booz, Al- len, Mr. Weingard was a senior intelligence analyst at the De- fense Intelligence Agency. He has degrees in engineering from Cornell University and is completing his doctorate in computer science / artificial intelligence at George Washington Univer- sity. The meeting will be held in the Contel Plaza Building Audito- rium at Contel Federal Systems in Fairfax, Virginia, at the southwest edge of the Fair Oaks mall. Directions from 495 Beltway: Take Route 66 Westbound (toward Front Royal) and get off at route 50 heading west (Exit 15 Dulles/Winchester). Go are naturally parallel, and are ``robust" to novelty. In this talk Fred Weingard will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 1/4 mile on route 50, follow sign to "shopping center". Stay in right lane and merge into service road that circles shop- ping center. Take driveway from service road to Contel build- ing. Address is 12015 Lee Jackson Highway. Contel building is across shopping parking lot from Lord and Taylor, near Sears. For further information call Billie Stelzner at (703) 359-7685. Host for the meeting is the recently-established Contel Technology Center. Dr. Alan Salisbury, Director of the Technology Center, will present a brief introduction to the plans for research and application of technology at the Contel laboratory, including work in artificial intelligence and man-machine interface design. Schedule: 7:00 - 7:15 Welcoming (Alan Salisbury) 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  8:30 - 9:30 Reception, informal discussion ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Oct 88 11:31:53 EDT From: John Grefenstette Subject: 3rd Intl. Conference on Genetic Algorithms Call for Papers The Third International Conference on Genetic Algorithms (ICGA-89) The Third International Conference on Genetic Algorithms (ICGA- 89), will be held on June 4-7, 1989 at George Mason University present a brief introduction to the plans for research and application of technology at the Contel laboratory, including work in artificial intelligence and man-machine interface design. Schedule: 7:00 - 7:15 Welcoming (Alan Salisbury) 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  near Washington, D.C. Authors are invited to submit papers on all aspects of Genetic Algorithms, including: foundations of genetic algorithms, search, optimization, machine learning using genetic algorithms, classifier systems, apportionment of credit algorithms, relationships to other search and learning paradigms. Papers discussing specific applications (e.g., OR, engineering, science, etc.) are encouraged. Important Dates: 10 Feb 89: Submissions must be received by program chair 10 Mar 89: Notification of acceptance or rejection 10 Apr 89: Camera ready revised versions due 4-7 Jun 89: Conference Dates Schedule: 7:00 - 7:15 Welcoming (Alan Salisbury) 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  Authors are requested to send four copies (hard copy only) of a full paper by February 10, 1989 to the program chair: Dr. J. David Schaffer Philips Laboratories 345 Scarborough Road Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510 ds1@philabs.philips.com (914) 945-6168 Conference Committee: Conference Chair: Kenneth A. De Jong, George Mason University Local Arrangements: Lashon B. Booker, Naval Research Lab Program Chair: J. David Schaffer, Philips Laboratories rsions due 4-7 Jun 89: Conference Dates Schedule: 7:00 - 7:15 Welcoming (Alan Salisbury) 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 4 Program Committee: Lashon B. Booker Lawrence Davis, Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Inc. Kenneth A. De Jong David E. Goldberg, University of Alabama John J. Grefenstette, Naval Research Lab John H. Holland, University of Michigan George G. Robertson, Xerox PARC J. David Schaffer Stephen F. Smith, Carnegie-Melon University Stewart W. Wilson, Rowland Institute for Science ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 88 14:34:20 edt From: wilsonjb%avlab.dnet@wpafb-avlab.arpa (Jim Wilson, AFWAL/AAI, 55800) Subject: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 g Aerospace Applications of Artificial Intelligence (AAAIC) '88 Special Emphasis On Neural Network Applications LOCATION: Stouffer Dayton Plaza Hotel Dayton, OH DATES: Monday, 24 Oct - Friday, 28 Oct 88 PLENARY SESSION Tuesday Morning , University of Michigan George G. Robertson, Xerox PARC J. David Schaffer Stephen F. Smith, Carnegie-Melon University Stewart W. Wilson, Rowland Institute for Science ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 88 14:34:20 edt From: wilsonjb%avlab.dnet@wpafb-avlab.arpa (Jim Wilson, AFWAL/AAI, 55800) Subject: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  Lt General John M. Loh, Commander, USAF Aeronautical Systems Division Dr. Stephen Grossberg, President, Association of Neural Networks TECHNICAL SESSIONS Tuesday - Thursday (in paralell) I. Neural Network Aerospace Applications Integrating Neural Netorks and Expert Systems Neural Networks and Signal Processing Neural Networks and Man-Machine Interface Issues Parallel Processing and Neural Networks Optical Neural Networks Back Propogation with Momentum, Shared Weights and Recurrency Cybernetics Date: Thu, 6 Oct 88 14:34:20 edt From: wilsonjb%avlab.dnet@wpafb-avlab.arpa (Jim Wilson, AFWAL/AAI, 55800) Subject: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 % II. AI Aerospace Applications Developmental Tools and Operational and Maintenance Issues Using Expert Systems Real Time Expert Systems Automatic Target Recognition Data Fusion/Sensor Fusion Combinatorial Optimaztion for Scheduling and Resource Control Machine Learining, Cognition, and Avionics Applications Advanced Problem Solving Techniques Cooperative and Competitive Network Dynamics in Aerospace Tutorials I. Introduction to Neural Nets Mon 8:30 - 11:30 II. Natural LAnguage Processing 8:30 - 11:30 III. Conditioned Response in Neural Nets 1:30 - 4:30 ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  IV. Verification and Validation of Knowledge 1:30 - 4:30 Based Systems Workshops I. Robotics, Vision, and Speech Fri 8:30 - 11:30 II. AI and Human Engineering Issues 8:30 - 11:30 III. Synthesis of Intelligence 1:30 - 4:30 IV. A Futurists View of AI 1:30 - 4:30 REGISTRATION INFORMATION (after 30 Sept) Conference $225 Individual Tech Session (ea) $ 50 Tutorials (ea) $ 50 8:30 - 11:30 II. Natural LAnguage Processing 8:30 - 11:30 III. Conditioned Response in Neural Nets 1:30 - 4:30 ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95  Workshops (ea) $ 50 Conference Reistration includes: Plenary Session Tuesday Luncheon Wednesday Banquet All Technical Sessions Proceedings Tutorials and Workshops are extra. For more information, contact: AAAIC '88 Dayton SIGART P.O. Box 31434 Dayton, OH 45431 Conference $225 Individual Tech Session (ea) $ 50 Tutorials (ea) $ 50 8:30 - 11:30 II. Natural LAnguage Processing 8:30 - 11:30 III. Conditioned Response in Neural Nets 1:30 - 4:30 ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 = Darrel Vidrine (513) 255-2446 Hotel information: Stouffer Dayton Plaza Hotel (513) 224-0800 Rates: Govt Non-Govt Single $55 $75 Double $60 $80 ------------------------------ Proceedings Tutorials and Workshops are extra. For more information, contact: AAAIC '88 Dayton SIGART P.O. Box 31434 Dayton, OH 45431 Conference $225 Individual Tech Session (ea) $ 50 Tutorials (ea) $ 50 8:30 - 11:30 II. Natural LAnguage Processing 8:30 - 11:30 III. Conditioned Response in Neural Nets 1:30 - 4:30 ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 $Date: Thu, 6 Oct 88 14:58:46 EDT From: donald berman Subject: Annual Survey of AI Applications to Law and Taxation I am editing THE ANNUAL SURVEY OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND LAW which will cover automated practice systems, expert systems, conceptual retrieval from legal data bases, computer assisted education, hypertext, and decision analysis. I invite researchers and developers to submit short articles; users to submit product reviews; and developers to submit information about their AI products for listing in a comprehensive directory. For more information you may either reply to this electronic message or contact Professor Donald H. Berman Center for Law & Computer Science ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 | Northeastern University 400 Huntington Ave. Boston, MA 02115 tel. (617) 437-3346 Berman@corwin.ccs.northeastern.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 88 19:41:28 GMT From: THUNDER.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU!spiro@pt.cs.cmu.edu (Spiro Michaylov) Subject: CLP mailing list The CLP mailing list has been created and is going strong. If you have asked to be put on it and have not received any messages it is probably because I haven't been able to get your e-mail address working. If this is the case, please mail clp-request@cs.cmu.edu with lots of alternative e-mail addresses . For more information you may either reply to this electronic message or contact Professor Donald H. Berman Center for Law & Computer Science ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 for me to try. In particular, the following addresses are causing problems ...!utacs.uta.fi!ph (user doesn't exist) ...!aida!em (host doesn't exist) clp%inf21@ztivax.siemens.com (host has gone away?) ---------------------------- Spiro Michaylov Carnegie Mellon Computer Science. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 88 19:42:39 GMT From: busalacc@umn-cs.arpa (Perry J. Busalacchi) Subject: conceptual structures news group ges it is probably because I haven't been able to get your e-mail address working. If this is the case, please mail clp-request@cs.cmu.edu with lots of alternative e-mail addresses . For more information you may either reply to this electronic message or contact Professor Donald H. Berman Center for Law & Computer Science ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 G Conceptual Structures News Group -------------------------------- As was discussed at the annual conceptual graphs workshop, a new news group is being formed which will focus on discussions pertaining to John Sowa's Conceptual Structure theory. This group will be monitored by Perry Busalacchi (University of Minnesota). If you are interested in subscribing send mail to busalacc@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu. Received mail will be compiled into a weekly newsletter and sent to all subscribing parties. -perry ------------------------------ s.cmu.edu with lots of alternative e-mail addresses . For more information you may either reply to this electronic message or contact Professor Donald H. Berman Center for Law & Computer Science ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@xIAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #95 .End of AIList Digest ******************** Group -------------------------------- As was discussed at the annual conceptual graphs workshop, a new news group is being formed which will focus on discussions pertaining to John Sowa's Conceptual Structure theory. This group will be monitored by Perry Busalacchi (University of Minnesota). If you are interested in subscribing send mail to busalacc@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu. Received mail will be compiled into a weekly newsletter and sent to all subscribing parties. -perry ------------------------------ s.cmu.edu with lots of alternative e-mail addresses . For more information you may either reply to this electronic message or contact Professor Donald H. Berman Center for Law & Computer Science ct: AAAIC '88 7:15 - 8:15 Speaker (Fred Weingard) 8:15 - 8:30 Report on Neural Network Society (Craig Will) rd will give a general overview of neural networks that covers many of the most promising neural network models, and discuss the applica- H@^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96  AIList Digest Sunday, 9 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 96 Spang Robinson Report Philosophy: Re: common sense "reasoning" Followup on JMC/Fishwick Diffeq Re: Newell's response to KL questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Sep 88 08:07:46 CDT From: smu!leff@uunet.UU.NET (Laurence Leff) Subject: bm965 j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 3 The Spang Robinson Report on Artificial Intelligence, August, 1988, Volume 4, No. 8 Lead Article is on the "New AI Industry" Revenue List Expert System Development Tools 1987 139 million 1989 278 million Natural Language 1987 49 million 1989 95 million Symbolic Processing Languages e: Sun, 18 Sep 88 08:07:46 CDT From: smu!leff@uunet.UU.NET (Laurence Leff) Subject: bm965 j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 1987 51 million 1989 145 million AI Services 1987 150 million 1989 336 million Symbolic Processors 1987 170 million 1989 161 million General Workstations 1987 81 million 1989 277 million million Natural Language 1987 49 million 1989 95 million Symbolic Processing Languages e: Sun, 18 Sep 88 08:07:46 CDT From: smu!leff@uunet.UU.NET (Laurence Leff) Subject: bm965 j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 7Number of companies selling AI technology or applications 1986 80 1988 ~160 Discussions aof Carnegie Group, Inference, IntelliCorp, Teknowledge and Lucid (Lisp) Lucid revenues in 1988 were 1.4 million. ________________________________________ Neural Netowrks: Discussion of various neural network products. They have a 10,000 u9it installed base. It took 30 months to achieve 10000 units in Expert systems contrasted to 13 months for neural networks. MIT sent out 7000 copeis of the software in Explorations in Parallel Distributed Processing. j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 NeuralWorks published 1000 copies of its NeuralWare tool. They range from $195 to $2995.00 Neuronics hs sold 500 units of MacBrain, TRW sold 40 units but is third in dollar volume. ________________________________________ Hypertext and AI. CogentTEXT is a hypertext system embedded in Prolog. Each hypertext button causes execution of an apporpriate segment of Prolog code. This system is a "shareware" product. It can be obtained from Cogent Software for $35.00 (508 875 6553) ________________________________________ Third Millenium is a venture capital fund still interested in AI start ups (as well as Neural networks). j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 x)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Shorts: IntelliCorp reports profit of $416,000 for its fourth quarter. Lucid has a product called Distill! which will remove the develpment environment for the runtime execute. SUN renewed its on-goiing OEM agreement. Lucid has sold a total of 3000 products with 2000 went to SUN. CSK will be selling LUCID in Japan. Neuron Data has integrated Neuron OBJECT with ORACLE, SYBASE and Ingres. The interfaces cost $1000 each. KDS has released a version of an expert system shell with Blackboard. Logicware ported MPROLOG and TWAICE (expert system shell) to IRIS systems. ural networks). j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 i Flavors TRechnology has introduced a system to real-time inference 10,000 rules in 10 milliseconds. A Japanese company ordered the product. Inference has ported ART to IBM mainframes and PC (under MS-DOS). The Spang Robinson Report has a two pag list of AI companies broken down into each of the following fields: Expert System Tools, Expert System Applications, Languages (e. g. PROLOG), natural language systems and hardware ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 88 14:59:56 GMT From: jbn@glacier.stanford.edu (John B. Nagle) Reply-to: glacier!jbn@labrea.stanford.edu (John B. Nagle) RIS systems. ural networks). j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 jSubject: Re: common sense "reasoning" Use of the term "common-sense reasoning" presupposes that common sense has something to do with reasoning. This may not be the case. Many animals exhibit what appears from the outside to be "common sense". Even insects seem to have rudiments of common sense. Yet at this level reasoning seems unlikely. The models of behavior expressed by Rod Brooks and his artificial insects (there's a writeup on this in the current issue of Omni), and by Hans Moravec in his new book "Mind Children", offer an alternative. I won't attempt to summarize that work here, but it bears looking at. I would encourage workers in the field to consider models of common sense that don't depend heavily on logic. There are alternative ways to look at this class of problem. Both Brooks and Moravec use approaches j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 Ythat are spatial in nature, rather than propositional. This seems to be a good beginning for dealing with the real world. The energetic methods Witkin and Kass use in vision processing are another kind of model which offers a spatial orientation, an internal drive toward consistency, and the ability to deal with noisy data. These are promising beginnings for common-sense processing. John Nagle ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 88 2:21 +0100 From: ceb%ethz.uucp@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Followup on JMC/Fishwick Diffeq mmarize that work here, but it bears looking at. I would encourage workers in the field to consider models of common sense that don't depend heavily on logic. There are alternative ways to look at this class of problem. Both Brooks and Moravec use approaches j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96  >From ceb Wed Sep 28 02:21:09 MET 1988 remote from ethz >for Robots Interchange Apropos using diffeqs or other mathematical models to imbue a robot with the ability to reason about observation of continuous phenomena: in John McCarthy's message , JMC states that (essentially) diffeqs are not enough and must be imbedded in "something" larger, which he calls "common sense knowledge". He also state that diffeqs are inappropriate because "noone could acquire the initial [boundary?] conditions and integrate them fast enough". I would like to pursue this briefly, by asking the question: Just how much of this something-larger (JMC's framework of common sense knowledge) could be characterized as descriptions logic. There are alternative ways to look at this class of problem. Both Brooks and Moravec use approaches j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96  of domains in which such equations are in force, and in describing the interactions between neighboring domains? I ask because I observe in my colleagues (and sometimes in myself) that an undying fascination with the diffeq "as an art form" can lead one think about them `in vitro', i. e. isolated on paper, with all those partial-signs standing so proud. You have to admit, the idea as such gets great mileage: you have a symbolic representation of something continuous, and we really don't have another good way of doing this. Notwithstanding, in order to use them, you've got to describe a domain, the bc's, etc. This bias towards setting diffeqs up on a stage may also stem from practical grounds as well: in numerical-analysis work, even having described the domain and bc's you're not home free yet - the equations have to be discretized, which leads to huge, impossible-to-solve matrices, etc. There are many who spend the bulk of their working j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 lives trying to find discretizations which behave well for certain ill-behaved but industrially important equations. Such research is done by trial-and-error, with verification through computer simulation. In such simulations, to try out new discretizations, the same simple sample domains are used over and over again, in order to try to get results which *numerically* agree with some previously known answer or somebody elses method. In short, you spend a lot of time tinkering with the equation, and the domain gets pushed to the back of your mind. In the case of the robot, two things are different: 1. No one really cares about the numerical accuracy of the results: something qualitative should be suffficient. 2. The modelled domains are *not* simple, and do not stay the same. There can also be quite a lot of them. I would wager that, if the relative importance of modelling the domain There are many who spend the bulk of their working j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 and modelling the intrinsic behavior that takes place within it were turned around, and given that you could do a good enough job of modelling the such domains, then: a. only a very small subset of not scientifically accurate but very easy to integrate diffeqs would be needed to give good performance, b. in this case, integration in real time would be a possibility, and, c. something like this will be necessary. I believe this supports the position taken by Fishwick, as near as I understood it. One might wonder idly if the Navier-Stokes equation (even in laminar form) would be among the small set of subwager a. Somehow I doubt it, but this is not really so important, and certainly need not be decided in advance. It may even be that you can get around using anything at all close to differential equations. What does seem important, though, is the need to be able to e of modelling the domain There are many who spend the bulk of their working j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 geometrically describe domains at least qualitatively accurately, and this `on the fly'. I am not claiming this would cover all "common sense knowledge", just a big part of it. ceb P. S. I would also be interested to know of anyone working on such modelling --- this latter preferably by mail. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 04:06:59 GMT From: goel-a@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Ashok Goel) Subject: Re: Newell's response to KL questions I appreciate Professor Allen Newell's explanation of his scheme of Navier-Stokes equation (even in laminar form) would be among the small set of subwager a. Somehow I doubt it, but this is not really so important, and certainly need not be decided in advance. It may even be that you can get around using anything at all close to differential equations. What does seem important, though, is the need to be able to e of modelling the domain There are many who spend the bulk of their working j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 &knowledge, symbolic, and device levels for describing the architecture of intelligence. More recently, Prof. Newell has proposed a scheme consisting of bands, specifically, the neural, cognitive, rational, and social bands, for describing the architecture of the mind-brain. Each band in this scheme can have several levels; for instance, the cognitive band contains (among others) the deliberation and the operation levels. What is not clear (at least not to me) is the relationship between the two schemes. One possible relationship is colinearity in that the device level corresponds to the neural band, the symbolic level to the cognitive band, and the knowledge level to the rational band. Another possibility is containment in the sense that each of band consists of (the equivalents of) knowledge, symbolic, and device levels. A yet another possibility is orthogonality of one kind or another. Which relationship (if any) between the two schemes does Prof. Newell imply? A commonality between Newell's two schemes is their emphasis on j`^AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #96 cstructure. A different scheme, David Marr's, focuses on the processing and functional aspects of cognition. Again, what (if any) is the relationship between Newell's levels/bands and Marr's levels? Colinearity, containment, or some kind of orthogonality? --ashok-- ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** ve band contains (among others) the deliberation and the operation levels. What is not clear (at least not to me) is the relationship between the two schemes. One possible relationship is colinearity in that the device level corresponds to the neural band, the symbolic level to the cognitive band, and the knowledge level to the rational band. Another possibility is containment in the sense that each of band consists of (the equivalents of) knowledge, symbolic, and device levels. A yet another possibility is orthogonality of one kind or another. Which relationship (if any) between the two schemes does Prof. Newell imply? A commonality between Newell's two schemes is their emphasis on j`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97  AIList Digest Sunday, 9 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 97 More on ... The Grand Challenge (5 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 2110 PDT From: John McCarthy Subject: re: The Grand Challenge is Foolish [In reply to message sent Mon 26 Sep 1988 23:22-EDT.] I shall have to read the article in Science to see if the Computer Science and Technology Board has behaved as foolishly as it seems. Computer science is science and AI is the part of computer science concerned with achieving goals in certain kinds of complex 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 :environments. However, defining the goals of AI in terms of reading a physics book is like defining the goal of plasma physics in terms of making SDI work. It confuses science with engineering. If the Computer Science and Technology Board takes science seriously then they have to get technical - or rather scientific. They might attempt to evaluate the progress in learning algorithms, higher order unification or nonmonotonic reasoning. If John Nagle thinks that "The lesson of the last five years seems to be that throwing money at AI is not enormously productive.", he is also confusing science with engineering. It's like saying that the lesson of the last five years of astronomy has been unproductive. Progress in science is measured in longer periods than that. ------------------------------ 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 Date: 27 Sep 88 15:29:56 GMT From: leverich@rand-unix.arpa (Brian Leverich) Subject: Re: Grand Challenges In article <17736@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> jbn@glacier.UUCP (John B. Nagle) writes: > > The lesson of the last five years seems to be that throwing money at >AI is not enormously productive. Recent "big science" failures notwithstanding, the infusion of money into AI may turn out to have been a more productive investment than we realize. As a case in point, consider expert system technology. It seems doubtful that the technology is currently or soon will be capable of capturing human "expertise" in more than a relative handful of freakishly well-defined domains. omy has been unproductive. Progress in science is measured in longer periods than that. ------------------------------ 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 That doesn't mean the technology is useless, though. Antiquated COBOL programming replaced or substantially increased the productivity of millions of clerks who used to do the arithmetic necessary to maintain ledgers. There still are millions of clerks out there who perform evaluation activities that can be very well defined but are too complex to cost-effectively program, debug, maintain, and document in COBOL. A safe bet is that over the next decade what shells _really_ do is allow the business data processing community to automate a whole class of clerical activities they haven't been able to handle in the past. Unglamorous as it seems, that single class of applications will really (no hype) save industry billions of dollars. Rather than looking at how well research is satisfying its own goals, when talking about the productivity of research it may make more sense to take a hard-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 I "Simulate it in ROSS" Brian Leverich | U.S. Snail: 1700 Main St. ARPAnet: leverich@rand-unix | Santa Monica, CA 90406 UUCP/usenet: decvax!randvax!leverich | Ma Bell: (213) 393-0411 X7769 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 07:53:30 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!strath-cs!glasgow!gilbert@uunet.uu.net (Gilbert Cockton) Subject: Re: Grand Challenges: Expert System Shells replace COBOL In article <1717@randvax.UUCP> leverich@rand-unix.UUCP (Brian Leverich) writes: >A bet is that over the next decade what shells _really_ do is allow the >business data processing community to automate a whole class of clerical >activities they haven't been able to handle in the past. Unglamorous as >it seems, that single class of applications will really (no hype) save bout the productivity of research it may make more sense to take a hard-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 >industry billions of dollars. At last, someone in comp.ai lets it slip what ES shells are really being used for (not a revelation to anyone who follows IKBS usage though). Surveys in the UK (d'Agapeyeff, Ince) show that shells are being used to write small (200 rule) systems that do traditional DP processing which probably is beyond realistic COBOL programming. Furthermore (Ince) they are being programmed by casual computer users with no programming background. Someone asked for the 3 achievements of AI and no one answered. I intended to post my 3 to the net, but got diverted by some metaphysics. I vote ES shells the achievement of the decade for: avoiding CS snobbery and turning out restricted natural t. Unglamorous as >it seems, that single class of applications will really (no hype) save bout the productivity of research it may make more sense to take a hard-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97  language end-user programming languages which the untrained user will pick up and write applications in. Shells may be the first step in bringing some form of programming to the masses (but remember that adventure games got there first with restricted natural language). Note that the big shells (Art, KEE etc) fail the test as they replace CS snobbery with IKBS snobbery. The shells in real use tend to be the PC based ones. Note that the human-computer system here is quite powerful, far more powerful than the no-human system aimed at by the AI zealots. If more people in AI understood the classic human factors task allocation problem, they would be more likely to turn out technologies which do help people to use computers, rather than abortive technologies which try to help computers to abuse people. Thank god this fails. -- d-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 ]Gilbert Cockton, Department of Computing Science, The University, Glasgow gilbert@uk.ac.glasgow.cs !ukc!glasgow!gilbert ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 88 16:30:57 GMT From: glacier!jbn@labrea.stanford.edu (John B. Nagle) Subject: Re: Grand Challenges: Expert System Shells replace COBOL This is true. What expert systems have, in practice, turned out to be is simply another form of special-purpose programming system for the development of a specific class of applications. Spreadsheets were the first such form to achieve truly widespread use. One could argue about old report-writer systems such as RPG, but such systems were and are generally used by data processing staff. Spreadsheets are more often set up by people who themselves want to analyze the numbers. Programmable database programs uters to abuse people. Thank god this fails. -- d-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 Bfor end users, such as Dbase and its successors, followed. Now we have Apple's Hypercard, again, a simplified programming system for end users. Expert systems shells are tools of the same class. They provide a system in which programs for a limited class of problems can be neatly expressed. As such, they are useful, but not a profound breakthrough. About five years ago, I made the statement that when all is said and done, expert systems will be more important than syntax-directed parsing but less important than relational databases. In retrospect, this seems a valid assessment. If this whole technology had simply been called "rule-based programming", the same results probably would have been obtained, with much less controversy. John Nagle ammable database programs uters to abuse people. Thank god this fails. -- d-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97  ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 88 16:58:31 GMT From: leverich@rand-unix.arpa (Brian Leverich) Subject: Re: Grand Challenges: Expert System Shells replace COBOL In article <1680@crete.cs.glasgow.ac.uk> gilbert@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Gilbert Cockton) writes: > >I vote ES shells the achievement of the decade for: > > avoiding CS snobbery and turning out restricted natural > language end-user programming languages which the untrained > user will pick up and write applications in. Shells may be > the first step in bringing some form of programming to the > masses (but remember that adventure games got there first ng", the same results probably would have been obtained, with much less controversy. John Nagle ammable database programs uters to abuse people. Thank god this fails. -- d-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 2> with restricted natural language). > Yup. Now I have a nomination for the nth (probably not second or third, but up there...) most significant _real_ contribution of AI, again in the vein of providing new programming tools: knowledge-based simulation languages. Large simulations have traditionally been exceedingly costly to design, debug, and extend, largely because the Fortran or even Simscript code of the models isn't the least bit isomorphic with the physical system being modeled. Modeling trucks moving brainlessly around on a road network was hard; modeling a multi-mode transportation system where management was using heuristics to pursue cost-minimization and other goals was essentially impossible. Enters the object-oriented message-passing paradigm. All of the sudden John Nagle ammable database programs uters to abuse people. Thank god this fails. -- d-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 -individual trucks become "trucks" in the model (rather than rows in a matrix), managers become "managers", and "managers" and "trucks" interact by exchanging English-like messages rather than by changing entries in some arbitrary set of matrices. Design, debug, and extension is much easier. No hype - I've used ROSS (RAND's KBSim tool) to build some 4000+ lines of code simulations. A good bet is that this object-oriented message-passing stuff is going to have a considerable impact upon the simulation community. -- "Simulate it in ROSS" Brian Leverich | U.S. Snail: 1700 Main St. ARPAnet: leverich@rand-unix | Santa Monica, CA 90406 UUCP/usenet: decvax!randvax!leverich | Ma Bell: (213) 393-0411 X7769 ------------------------------ den John Nagle ammable database programs uters to abuse people. Thank god this fails. -- d-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#`AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #97 .End of AIList Digest ******************** (rather than rows in a matrix), managers become "managers", and "managers" and "trucks" interact by exchanging English-like messages rather than by changing entries in some arbitrary set of matrices. Design, debug, and extension is much easier. No hype - I've used ROSS (RAND's KBSim tool) to build some 4000+ lines of code simulations. A good bet is that this object-oriented message-passing stuff is going to have a considerable impact upon the simulation community. -- "Simulate it in ROSS" Brian Leverich | U.S. Snail: 1700 Main St. ARPAnet: leverich@rand-unix | Santa Monica, CA 90406 UUCP/usenet: decvax!randvax!leverich | Ma Bell: (213) 393-0411 X7769 ------------------------------ den John Nagle ammable database programs uters to abuse people. Thank god this fails. -- d-headed "engineering" perspective and ask what can be built after the research that couldn't be built before. -- 0#``PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Genetic Algorithms Conference r---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 88 22:58:00 GMT From: offutt@caen.engin.umich.edu (daniel m offutt) Article-I.D.: <3eec1f42.fed7@dlfed7.engin.umich.edu> Call for Papers The Third International Conference on Genetic Algorithms (ICGA-89) The Third International Conference on Genetic Algorithms (ICGA- 89), will be held on June 4-7, 1989 at George Mason University near Washington, D.C. Authors are invited to submit papers on all aspects of Genetic Algorithms, including: foundations of NW `PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Genetic Algorithms Conference  genetic algorithms, search, optimization, machine learning using genetic algorithms, classifier systems, apportionment of credit algorithms, relationships to other search and learning paradigms. Papers discussing specific applications (e.g., OR, engineering, science, etc.) are encouraged. Important Dates: 10 Feb 89: Submissions must be received by program chair 10 Mar 89: Notification of acceptance or rejection 10 Apr 89: Camera ready revised versions due 4-7 Jun 89: Conference Dates Authors are requested to send four copies (hard copy only) of a full paper by February 10, 1989 to the program chair: NW `PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Genetic Algorithms Conference 9 Dr. J. David Schaffer Philips Laboratories 345 Scarborough Road Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510 ds1@philabs.philips.com (914) 945-6168 Conference Committee: Conference Chair: Kenneth A. De Jong, George Mason University Local Arrangements: Lashon B. Booker, Naval Research Lab Program Chair: J. David Schaffer, Philips Laboratories Program Committee: Lashon B. Booker Dates Authors are requested to send four copies (hard copy only) of a full paper by February 10, 1989 to the program chair: NW `PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Genetic Algorithms Conference d Lawrence Davis, Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Inc. Kenneth A. De Jong David E. Goldberg, University of Alabama John J. Grefenstette, Naval Research Lab John H. Holland, University of Michigan George G. Robertson, Xerox PARC J. David Schaffer Stephen F. Smith, Carnegie-Melon University Stewart W. Wilson, Rowland Institute for Science -------------------------------- four copies (hard copy only) of a full paper by February 10, 1989 to the program chair: NW 鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98  AIList Digest Sunday, 9 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 98 Machine Consciousness (6 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Oct 88 17:47:57 GMT From: mailrus!uflorida!usfvax2!mician@ames.arpa (Rudy Mician) Subject: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? I have a question that I know has been addressed in the past (and undoubtedly continues to be addressed): When can a machine be considered a conscious entity? 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98  For instance, if a massive neural-net were to start from a stochastic state and learn to interact with its environment in the same way that people do (interact not think), how could one tell that such a machine thinks or exists (in the same context as Descarte's "COGITO ERGO SUM"/"DUBITO ERGO SUM" argument- that is, how could one tell whether or not an "I" exists for the machine? Furthermore, would such a machine have to be "creative"? And if so, how would we measure the machine's creativity? I suspect that the Turing Test is no longer an adequate means of judging whether or not a machine is intelligent. If anyone has any ideas, comments, or insights into the above questions or any questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 X Thanks for any help, Rudy -- Rudy Mician mician@usfvax2.usf.edu Usenet: ...!{ihnp4, cbatt}!codas!usfvax2!mician ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 88 20:24:56 GMT From: bwk@mitre-bedford.arpa (Barry W. Kort) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? hether or not an "I" exists for the machine? Furthermore, would such a machine have to be "creative"? And if so, how would we measure the machine's creativity? I suspect that the Turing Test is no longer an adequate means of judging whether or not a machine is intelligent. If anyone has any ideas, comments, or insights into the above questions or any questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98  In article <1141@usfvax2.EDU> mician@usfvax2.usf.edu.UUCP, (Rudy Mician) asks: >When can a machine be considered a conscious entity? Consciousness is not a binary phenomenon. There are degrees of consciousness. So the transition from non-conscious to conscious is a fuzzy, gradual transition. A normal person who is asleep is usually regarded as unconscious, as is a person in a coma. An alert Dalmation may be considered conscious. It might be more instructive to catalog the stages that lead to higher levels of consciousness. I like to start with sentience, which I define as the ability of a system to sense its environment as, comments, or insights into the above questions or any questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 and to construct an internal map, model, or representation of that environment. Awareness may then be defined as the ability of a sentient system to monitor an evolving state of affairs. Self-awareness may, in turn, be defined as the capacity of a sentient system to monitor itself. As an aware being expands its powers of observation, it achieves progressively higher degrees of consciousness. Julian Jaynes has suggested that the bicameral mind gives rise to human consciousness. By linking two semi-autonomous hemispheres through the corpus callosum, it is possible for one hemisphere to act as observer and coach for the other. In other words, consciousness requires a feedback loop. Group consciousness arises when independent individuals engage in reply. 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 .mutual mirroring and monitoring. From Narcissus to Lewis Carroll, the looking glass has served as the metaphor for consciousness raising. --Barry Kort ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 88 12:06:26 GMT From: uhccux!lee@humu.nosc.mil (Greg Lee) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? From article <1141@usfvax2.EDU>, by mician@usfvax2.EDU (Rudy Mician): " ... " When can a machine be considered a conscious entity? Always. It's a matter of respect and empathy on your part. All us callosum, it is possible for one hemisphere to act as observer and coach for the other. In other words, consciousness requires a feedback loop. Group consciousness arises when independent individuals engage in reply. 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 the machines I use are conscious. Or never, maybe, if you take 'conscious' seriously enough to entertain the possibility that you yourself are not conscious except sporadically. Whatever one may think of his overall thesis, Julian Jaynes (The Origin of Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind) is very persuasive when he argues that consciousness is not required for use of human language or every-day human activities. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 88 15:06:55 GMT From: tank!uxc!ksuvax1!cseg!cdc@oddjob.uchicago.edu (C. David Covington) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines res a feedback loop. Group consciousness arises when independent individuals engage in reply. 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 ; (Neural-Nets)??? In article <1141@usfvax2.EDU>, mician@usfvax2.EDU (Rudy Mician) writes: > > I have a question that I know has been addressed in the past (and undoubtedly > continues to be addressed): > > When can a machine be considered a conscious entity? > . . . > > I suspect that the Turing Test is no longer an adequate means of judging > whether or not a machine is intelligent. > Regarding intelligent machines, to the naive it's totally magic, to the wizard it's clever programming and a masterful illusion at best. To ascribe !cdc@oddjob.uchicago.edu (C. David Covington) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines res a feedback loop. Group consciousness arises when independent individuals engage in reply. 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 %consciousness to a machine is a personal matter. If I cannot tell the difference between a 'conscious' human and a skillful emulation of the same, then I am perfectly justified in *modeling* the machine as human. It's not so much a question of what *is* as a question of what *appears* to be. The same machine might be rightfully deemed conscious by one but not by another. I must expose my world view as predominantly Christian at this point. My belief in a Supreme Being places my view of man above all other animals and therefore above any emulation of man by machine. I say this not so much to convert the masses to my point of view but to clarify that there are people that think this way and this allows no place for conscious machines. So to readdress the original question, the Turing test is certainly still valid from my understanding that it is a matter of how accurately you can mimic human behaviors. Between the lines you are making the assumption that man and machine are the same in essence. To this I object 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 by faith. The question cannot be properly addressed without first dealing with world views on man. David Covington Assistant Professor Electrical Engineering University of Arkansas (501)575-6583 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 88 23:58:51 GMT From: esosun!jackson@seismo.css.gov (Jerry Jackson) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? but to clarify that there are people that think this way and this allows no place for conscious machines. So to readdress the original question, the Turing test is certainly still valid from my understanding that it is a matter of how accurately you can mimic human behaviors. Between the lines you are making the assumption that man and machine are the same in essence. To this I object 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 In article <40680@linus.UUCP> bwk@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Barry W. Kort) writes: In article <1141@usfvax2.EDU> mician@usfvax2.usf.edu.UUCP, (Rudy Mician) asks: > >When can a machine be considered a conscious entity? > A normal person who is asleep is usually regarded as unconscious, > as is a person in a coma. An alert Dalmation may be considered > conscious. A person who is in a coma is unconscious because he is incapable of experiencing the outside world. Consciousness is a *subjective* phenomenon. It is truly not even possible to determine if your neighbor is conscious. If a person felt no pain and experienced no colors, sounds, thoughts, emotions, or tactile sensations he could be ows no place for conscious machines. So to readdress the original question, the Turing test is certainly still valid from my understanding that it is a matter of how accurately you can mimic human behaviors. Between the lines you are making the assumption that man and machine are the same in essence. To this I object 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 considered unconscious. Note that we would be unable to determine this. He could behave in exactly the same way while being completely inert/dead inside. Machines that are obviously unconscious such as feedback-controlled battleship guns and thermostats respond to their environments but, I would hardly call them conscious. It is hard to imagine what one would have to do to make a computer conscious, but it does seem that it would involve more than adding a few rules. --Jerry Jackson ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 88 20:09:54 GMT From: hubcap!ncrcae!gollum!rolandi@gatech.edu (mail) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? s he could be ows no place for conscious machines. So to readdress the original question, the Turing test is certainly still valid from my understanding that it is a matter of how accurately you can mimic human behaviors. Between the lines you are making the assumption that man and machine are the same in essence. To this I object 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 0 Adding to Barry Kort's...... >Consciousness is not a binary phenomenon. There are degrees of >consciousness. So the transition from non-conscious to conscious >is a fuzzy, gradual transition. When a person is awake and responds in a predictable manner, he is said to be conscious. >Awareness may then be defined as the ability of a >sentient system to monitor an evolving state of affairs. When a person is known to know some given thing, he is said to be aware. >Self-awareness may, in turn, be defined as the capacity of a sentient :54 GMT From: hubcap!ncrcae!gollum!rolandi@gatech.edu (mail) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? s he could be ows no place for conscious machines. So to readdress the original question, the Turing test is certainly still valid from my understanding that it is a matter of how accurately you can mimic human behaviors. Between the lines you are making the assumption that man and machine are the same in essence. To this I object 5鹀AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #98 c>system to monitor itself. When a person can label his own behavior in ways that are consistent with the labels of those who observe him, he is said to be self-aware. Walter Rolandi rolandi@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM NCR Advanced Systems Development, Columbia, SC ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** tient system to monitor an evolving state of affairs. When a person is known to know some given thing, he is said to be aware. >Self-awareness may, in turn, be defined as the capacity of a sentient :54 GMT From: hubcap!ncrcae!gollum!rolandi@gatech.edu (mail) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? s he could be ows no place for conscious machines. So to readdress the original question, the Turing test is certainly still valid from my understanding that it is a matter of how accurately you can mimic human behaviors. Between the lines you are making the assumption that man and machine are the same in essence. To this I object 58PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Here's one ... l---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 88 03:33:37 GMT From: bobc@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Bob Calbridge) Article-I.D.: <5746@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <413@soleil.UUCP> <458@aoa.UUCP> In article <458@aoa.UUCP>, carl@aoa.UUCP (Carl Witthoft) writes: ! In article <413@soleil.UUCP> peru@soleil.UUCP (Dave Peru) writes: ! >Here's one for all you mental masturbators out there: ! > ! >Have you ever thought about what the brain is doing between thoughts? ! Easy: writing c-code. I thought it reprocesses the B-tree. -------------------------------- dGPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods ;---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 88 15:23:23 GMT From: ncar!noao!asuvax!nud!mcdchg!clyde!wayback!emh@ames.arc.nasa.gov (E.M.Hummel) Article-I.D.: <1457@wayback.UUCP> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <3987@sfsup.UUCP> <1453@lznv.ATT.COM> <2046@iscuva.ISCS.COM> In article <2046@iscuva.ISCS.COM> jimk@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Kendall) writes: >In article <1453@lznv.ATT.COM> ziegler@lznv.ATT.COM (J.ZIEGLER) writes: >> First, a model of a barn was subjected to high >>electrostatic potential. Lots of sparks, arcing all over the place. >>Next, some lightning rods were place on top of the barn and >>grounded. No more sparks. > >So where did the sparks go? Did the lightning rods repel them or neutralize >the field? No. The rods provided a low impedance path to ground and the ~vdGPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods >electrostatic field was not forced to dissapate itself over the large area >of the roof. Hence the sparks dissapear. If there had been an ammeter across >the rod you would have seen a large current. Lightning rods CONDUCT lightning. Maybe the disagreement is in the definition of the word lightning. Kendall seems to define lightning as the current, and indeed putting a low impedance path in an electric field will cause current. Many think that even though the current will flow, the arcing (sparks, etc.) will be less likely when a lightning rod is used. Most people define lightning as the light from the arcing. (Even Webster does). So, does a lightning rod reduce the probability of arcing in the vicinity of the rod? -- Ed Hummel ? No. The rods provided a low impedance path to ground and the ~vdGPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM lightning rods "-------------------------------- d to dissapate itself over the large area >of the roof. Hence the sparks dissapear. If there had been an ammeter across >the rod you would have seen a large current. Lightning rods CONDUCT lightning. Maybe the disagreement is in the definition of the word lightning. Kendall seems to define lightning as the current, and indeed putting a low impedance path in an electric field will cause current. Many think that even though the current will flow, the arcing (sparks, etc.) will be less likely when a lightning rod is used. Most people define lightning as the light from the arcing. (Even Webster does). So, does a lightning rod reduce the probability of arcing in the vicinity of the rod? -- Ed Hummel ? No. The rods provided a low impedance path to ground and the ~vPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Wigner's friend x---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 88 20:37:37 GMT From: lew@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Lew Mammel, Jr.) Article-I.D.: <9796@ihlpa.ATT.COM> A while back I posted a followup to a question on Schrodinger's cat in which I basically pooh-poohed the paradox, stating that it presented no nonclassical difficulties. I cited Feynman's discussion of neutron scattering in his Lectures_on_Physics. Matthew Wiener sent me mail gainsaying my assertion. He cited Wigner's friend and the quantum theory of mind as examples showing the nontriviality of the measurement problem represented by Schrodinger's cat. I can't comment on the quantum theory of mind, not knowing what it is, but I did get a hold of Wigner's collection of essays, Symmetries_and_Reflections, which includes Remarks_on_the_Mind-Body_Question, in which Wigner discusses his friend. PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Wigner's friend V The basic idea is that the cat is promoted to a human who is subjected to a nonlethal treatment. Wigner then compares inquiries made of his friend with observations made on some apparatus. In my opinion, Wigner fails to move beyond Feynman's analysis because he compares his friend with a microscopic system, ignoring the obvious intermediate consisting of an inanimate macroscopic system. He then immediately attributes the necessary distinction to consciousness: "It follows that the being with a consciousness must have a different role in quantum mechanics than the inanimate measuring device: the atom considered above." This is a non sequitur, as I believe Feynman's example shows. I hate to be so presumptuous as to believe that my own thinking is advanced beyond Wigner's on this point, but that's the way it looks to me. ch Wigner discusses his friend. PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Wigner's friend ; Lew Mammel, Jr. -------------------------------- is subjected to a nonlethal treatment. Wigner then compares inquiries made of his friend with observations made on some apparatus. In my opinion, Wigner fails to move beyond Feynman's analysis because he compares his friend with a microscopic system, ignoring the obvious intermediate consisting of an inanimate macroscopic system. He then immediately attributes the necessary distinction to consciousness: "It follows that the being with a consciousness must have a different role in quantum mechanics than the inanimate measuring device: the atom considered above." This is a non sequitur, as I believe Feynman's example shows. I hate to be so presumptuous as to believe that my own thinking is advanced beyond Wigner's on this point, but that's the way it looks to me. ch Wigner discusses his friend. o,@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 10/07/88 w---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 88 13:03:15 GMT From: pur-ee!pur-phy!piner@j.cc.purdue.edu (Richard Piner) Article-I.D.: <1517@pur-phy> Posted: Fri Oct 7, 1988 3:26 PM EDT Msg: LGII-3198-5623 From: RPARK To: WHATSNEW WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 7 October 1988 Washington, DC 1. UNIVERSITY PORK WAS CUT OUT OF THE FY89 DEFENSE APPROPRIATION passed by Congress last Friday! The battle against earmarking research funds for specific universities was led by Sens. Nunn (D-GA) and Danforth (D-MO). Danforth waged a similar struggle in o,@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 10/07/88 1986, which briefly succeeded by the narrowest of margins--only to be reversed a week later (WN 20 Jun 86). This year, earmarks had been kept out of the Defense Authorization and Appropriations bills of both Houses but $46M in university earmarks mysteriously appeared in the version coming out of Conference. An angry Sen. Nunn introduced an amendment requiring all spending for colleges and universities to be awarded using competitive procedures and requiring DOD to report back on any hidden pork. It passed easily in both houses. It is the second victory this year over university pork. But the first, in the DOE, was purchased at the price of no new starts (WN 13 May 88). This may signal a new attitude in Congress. Senator Nunn pointed out to his colleagues that, "If we accept this earmarking, every Senator will be expected to deliver funds in the future for their universities." 2. SDI WAS FUNDED AT THE AUTHORIZED LEVEL OF $4.1B, which is slightly above last year's level, if you ignore inflation. This o,@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 10/07/88 is the same level that the President objected to when he vetoed the first bill, but Congress removed the "fences" it had imposed in the earlier version to protect long-range research (WN 6 May 88). It was a classic face-saving move, since in exchange Carlucci agreed to behave as if the fences were still there. 3. MEANWHILE, SDIO IS OFFERING PHASE I AT A NEW SALE PRICE. In joint hearings before the Armed Services Committees, the retiring Gen. Abrahamson listened to effusive praise from the same people who blocked his fourth star and consistently denied his funding requests. He then described a revised Phase I architecture that would put less in space and more in ground-based interceptors. Pentagon acquisition chief, Robert Costello, said this would reduce the price to a mere $69B--half the estimate 4 months ago. But Sen. Nunn pointed out that the price always goes down when the Pentagon is making the sale. It goes back up on delivery. slightly above last year's level, if you ignore inflation. This o,@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 10/07/88 4. PHASE I IS NO "PEACE SHIELD." In House testimony on Tuesday, Richard Perle, the Washington novelist who used to work for the Pentagon, described Phase I as a cheaper alternative than rail- mobile launchers or hardening to protect our missile fleet. Perle said a system that is 50% effective would be ample deterrence. A START treaty would achieve the same efficiency and save the $69B. 5. THE DEFAULT COST OF THE GUARANTEED STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM is over half of its annual budget, which is running about $3B. It is a serious concern to Congress. But Rep. Paul Henry (R-MI) notes that defaults occur overwhelmingly in institutions that do not require high school diplomas, such as beautician schools. Robert L. Park (202) 232-0189 The American Physical Society a mere $69B--half the estimate 4 months ago. But Sen. Nunn pointed out that the price always goes down when the Pentagon is making the sale. It goes back up on delivery. slightly above last year's level, if you ignore inflation. This o,@PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM "What's New" 10/07/88 "-------------------------------- In House testimony on Tuesday, Richard Perle, the Washington novelist who used to work for the Pentagon, described Phase I as a cheaper alternative than rail- mobile launchers or hardening to protect our missile fleet. Perle said a system that is 50% effective would be ample deterrence. A START treaty would achieve the same efficiency and save the $69B. 5. THE DEFAULT COST OF THE GUARANTEED STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM is over half of its annual budget, which is running about $3B. It is a serious concern to Congress. But Rep. Paul Henry (R-MI) notes that defaults occur overwhelmingly in institutions that do not require high school diplomas, such as beautician schools. Robert L. Park (202) 232-0189 The American Physical Society a mere $69B--half the estimate 4 months ago. But Sen. Nunn pointed out that the price always goes down when the Pentagon is making the sale. It goes back up on delivery. slightly above last year's level, if you ignore inflation. This }PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SN1987A ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Oct 88 00:05:35 GMT From: tdsnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu ( Todd/Dr. Nethack ) Article-I.D.: <1251@nmtsun.nmt.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1150@sri-arpa.ARPA> I was in the school library 2 days ago and saw a new book out of collected notes on SN1987A. I believe the title is something like "Supernova 1987-A" (pretty rough eh?) Anyway.. ask a *good* bookseller.. it should be on the microfiche of the current books in print. And you might try to get *your* university to carry a copy. If you really have trouble finding it.. let me know.. I will go look it up (ISBN numbers etc.) and post to the net. a Ԡ}PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM SN1987A C -- The Cafeteria? ... Oh! They serve *food* there, right? Kinda like a salad bar y'know? Well, *we* call it, "The Foobar" ... ...ames!hc!unmvax!nmtsun!titan!tdsnsr / tdsnsr@titan.nmt.edu [129.138.1.120] Dr. Nethack: Box 3693 C/S Socorro NM. 87801 -------------------------------- . I believe the title is something like "Supernova 1987-A" (pretty rough eh?) Anyway.. ask a *good* bookseller.. it should be on the microfiche of the current books in print. And you might try to get *your* university to carry a copy. If you really have trouble finding it.. let me know.. I will go look it up (ISBN numbers etc.) and post to the net. a Ԡ֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 & AIList Digest Tuesday, 11 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 99 Mathematics and Logic - The Ignorant assumption (6 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 88 01:58:53 GMT From: garth!smryan@unix.sri.com (Steven Ryan) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption >" ... We all know (I hope) formal systems are either >" incomplete or inconsistent. > >I don't know that. Can you show this for predicate logic? Either a system is too simple (like propositional calculus) to +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 ndo number theory (which is equivalent to everything else) or it's powerful enough in which Godel's theorem come into play: any system powerful enough for number theory is either incomplete or omega-inconsistent. Simple systems like propositional calculus are complete within their domain, but their domain is incomplete with respect to number theory and all other formal system. (Predicate calculus includes quantifiers; propositional calculus does not.) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 88 23:09:07 GMT From: grad3!nlt@cs.duke.edu (Nancy L. Tinkham) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 { Robert Firth offers the following proposed refutation of the Church-Turing thesis: > The conjecture is almost instantly disprovable: no Turing > machine can output a true random number, but a physical system can. Since > a function is surely "computable" if a physical system can be constructed > that computes it, the existence of true random-number generators directly > disproves the Church-Turing conjecture. The claim of the Church-Turing thesis is that the class of functions computable by a Turing machine corresponds exactly to the class of functions which can be computed by some algorithm. The notion of an algorithm is a somewhat informal one, but it includes the requirement that the computation be "carried forward deterministically, without resort to random methods or devices, e.g., dice" (Rogers, _Theory of Recursive Functions and Effective +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 Computability_, p.2). If it is demonstrated that a physical system, by using randomness, can generate the input-output pairs of a function which cannot be computed by a Turing machine, we have merely shown that there exists a non-Turing-computable function whose output can be generated by non-algorithmic means -- hardly surprising, and not relevant to the Church-Turing thesis. Nancy Tinkham {decvax,rutgers}!mcnc!duke!nlt nlt@cs.duke.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 88 15:07:41 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption In a previous article, Nancy L. Tinkham writes: thout resort to random methods or devices, e.g., dice" (Rogers, _Theory of Recursive Functions and Effective +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 c > The claim of the Church-Turing thesis is that the class of functions >computable by a Turing machine corresponds exactly to the class of functions >which can be computed by some algorithm. No it isn't. The claim is that every function "which would naturally be regarded as computable" can be computed by a Turing machine. At least, that's what Turing claimed, and he should know. [A M Turing, Proc London Math Soc 2, vol 442 p 230] ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 88 05:45:56 GMT From: bbn.com!aboulang@bbn.com (Albert Boulanger) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption ----- Date: 27 Sep 88 15:07:41 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption In a previous article, Nancy L. Tinkham writes: thout resort to random methods or devices, e.g., dice" (Rogers, _Theory of Recursive Functions and Effective +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 o In <13763@mimsy.UUCP> Darren F. Provine writes You see, ``every function "which would naturally be regarded as computable"'' and ``the class of functions which can be computed by some algorithm'' are pretty much the same thing. Do you have some way of computing a function without an algorithm that nobody else in the entire world knows about? Yup, Quantum Computers! (Half Serious :-)) Let me quote the abstract of the following paper: "Quantum Theory, the Church-Turing Principle and the Universal Quantum Computer", D. Deutsch, Proc. R. Soc. Lond. A400 97-117 (1985) e: 27 Sep 88 15:07:41 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption In a previous article, Nancy L. Tinkham writes: thout resort to random methods or devices, e.g., dice" (Rogers, _Theory of Recursive Functions and Effective +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99  "It is argued that underlying the Church-Turing hypothesis there is an implicit physical assertion. Here, this assertion is presented explicitly as a physical principle: 'every finitely realizable physical system can be perfectly simulated by a universal model computing machine operating by finite means'. Classical physics and the universal Turing machine, because the former is continuous and the latter discrete, do not obey the principle, at least in the strong form above. A class of model computing machines that is the quantum generalization of the class of Turing machines is described, and is shown that quantum theory an the 'universal quantum computer' are compatible with the principle. Computing machines resembling the universal quantum computer could, in principle, be built and would have remarkable properties not reproducible by any Turing machine. These do not include the computation of non-recursive Functions, but they do include 'quantum parallelism', a method by which certain probabilistic tasks can be performed faster by a universal quantum computer than any classical restriction of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 aquantum theory other than Everett's. (Multiple-Worlds interpretation - ed) Some of the numerous connections between quantum theory of computation and the rest of physics are explored. Quantum complexity theory allows a physically more reasonable definition of the 'complexity' or 'knowledge' in a physical system than does classical complexity theory." For 1 one page description of this paper, see John Maddox's News and Views "Towards the Quantum Computer?", Nature Vol 316, 15 August 1985, 573. For a perspective and a readable account of why Deutsch reasons that universal quantum computers support the Many-Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, see the chapter on Deutsch in the book, "The Ghost in the Atom", P.C.W. Davies, & J.R. Brown eds, Cambridge University Press, 1986 (Chapter 6). I should also mention that thinking along these lines have led others to investigate the ultimate randomness in quantum mechanics. See "Randomness in Quantum Mechanics - Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 analyzed data from NBS ionic-trap data, and so far QM checks out to be really random. Now to some, this stuff about quantum computers may sound MAX flaky, but consider the fact that intuitive people like Feynman wrote papers on the topic. A key new theory that helps put the question of randomness and the question of determinism (to some extent) into perspective is algorithmic complexity theory. In this theory, one can assign a measure of randomness to a number string, by using as a metric the shortest algorithm that could produce that string. If one considers the decimal expansion of the reals, than "most" of the the number line is dominated by numbers with infinite algorithmic complexity. Furthermore, these numbers are inaccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 measurable functions be non-determinate or that the elements of probability space correspond to inherently unpredictable or erratic events." The way I think of nondeterminism is operational. For example, if I were to be given an infinite-complexity number like Chaitin's omega, and an infinite resource universal computer I could use it as a seed to a random number generator (ie a chaotic system) and generate truly non-repeating random numbers. But since the initial seed required infinite resources, I could never realize it on a 'classical' computer. The important question is whether nature has access to such numbers. Albert Boulanger aboulanger@bbn.com BBN Systems & Technologies, Inc. rthermore, these numbers are inaccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 F ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 88 14:51:41 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption Somehow, I get the feeling that our machines are better at forward chaining than we are. Please let me run this Turing machine stuff by you once again. (Translation: this post says nothing new, merely recapitulates.) ---- The question that originally prompted me to speak was this one [ <388@quintus.UUCP> ok@quintus.UUCP (Richard A. O'Keefe)] >But is there any reason to suppose that the universe _is_ a Turing machine? stion is whether nature has access to such numbers. Albert Boulanger aboulanger@bbn.com BBN Systems & Technologies, Inc. rthermore, these numbers are inaccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99  As I understood it, the question referred to the physical world, as imperfectly revealed to us by science, and so I replied [ <7059@aw.sei.cmu.edu> firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) ] >None whatever. The conjecture is almost instantly disprovable: no Turing >machine can output a true random number, but a physical system can. To elaborate: I can build a box, whose main constituents are a supply of photons and a half-silvered mirrir, that, when triggered, will emit at random either the value "0" or the value "1". This can be thought of as a mapping {0,1} => 0|1 where I introduce "|" to designate the operator that arbitrarily selects one of its operands. The obvious generalisation of this - the function naccessible in any way to "classical" Turing machines in finite time or space. By the way, Erber & Putterman point out in their paper that "the axiomatic development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 that selects an arbitrary member of an input set - is surely not unfamiliar. Nobody has denied that a Turing machine can't do this. The assertion that a physical system can do it rests on the quantum theory; in particular on the proposition that the indeterminacy this theory ascribes to the physical world is irreducible. Since every attempt to build an alternative deterministic theory has foundered, and no prediction of the quantum theory has yet been falsified, this rests on pretty strong ground. Now, it is not my job to supply an "algorithm" for this function: as the physicist I have given you a specification and a model implementation; as the computer scientist it is your job to give me an equivelent program. However, being a kind-hearted soul, I shall point you to an algorithm; it is given as equation (3.1) in the paper [Deutsch: Proc Roy Soc A vol 400 pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 Naturally, it uses primitive operations that you won't find in a classical computing engine, which is why the title reads "Quantum theory, the Church-Turing principle, and the universal quantum computer". Turning now to that "principle": The formulation I learned was, briefly, that any function that would naturally be regarded as computible can be computed by a universal Turing machine. Once again, I made my opinion on this absolutely clear [art. cit.]: Since a function is surely "computable" if a physical system can be constructed that computes it, ... from which, I submit, the conclusion follows: ... the existence of true random-number generators directly disproves the Church-Turing conjecture. ver, being a kind-hearted soul, I shall point you to an algorithm; it is given as equation (3.1) in the paper [Deutsch: Proc Roy Soc A vol 400 pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 xGranted, one can readily evade this conclusion. It is necessary merely to redefine "natural", "computable", "function", or some other key term. For example, one could stipulate A function is to be regarded as computable only if it can be described by an algorithm written in a programming language implementable on a universal Turing machine. In which case, the conjecture becomes vacuously true, and the discipline of AI becomes vacuously futile. For the point of "artificial intelligence", surely, is accurately to reproduce, in some computing engine, the behaviour of certain physical systems, especially those that show goal- directed behaviour, judgement, creativity, or whatever else one means by "intelligence". If this is to be remotely feasible, then the model of the computation process must be at least general enough to embrace the known basic pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 operational features of physical systems. After all, if your programming tools cannot reproduce so simple a physical system as my random Boolean generator, the chance of their being able to reproduce a complicated physical system - the brain of a flatworm, for instance - must be very close to zero. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 01:31:58 GMT From: nau@mimsy.umd.edu (Dana S. Nau) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption In article <7202@aw.sei.cmu.edu> firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes: < ... I can build a box, whose main constituents are a supply < of photons and a half-silvered mirrir, that, when triggered, will emit t, creativity, or whatever else one means by "intelligence". If this is to be remotely feasible, then the model of the computation process must be at least general enough to embrace the known basic pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 ^< at random either the value "0" or the value "1". This can be thought < of as a mapping < < {0,1} => 0|1 < < where I introduce "|" to designate the operator that arbitrarily selects < one of its operands. The obvious generalisation of this - the function < that selects an arbitrary member of an input set - is surely not unfamiliar. As far as I can see, what you have defined is not a function. A function is normally defined to be a set F of ordered pairs (x,y) such that for each x, there is at most one y such that (x,y) is in F (and this y we normally call F(x)). Until all of the ordered pairs that comprise F have been unambiguously determined, you have not defined a function. Note that this does NOT mean that you have to tell us what all of the ordered pairs are or how to compute them, or that you know what they are, or embrace the known basic pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 that it is even possible to compute them (for some interesting examples, see page 9 of Hartley Rogers' book, "Theory of Recursive Functions and Effective Computability). It just means that it must be unambiguous what they are. If your mapping "|" is a function, then it must be one of the following: | = {(0.0), (1,0)} | = {(0.0), (1,1)} | = {(0.1), (1,0)} | = {(0.1), (1,1)} If it were unambiguous WHICH function "|" was, then "|" WOULD be Turing-computable. In fact, it would even be primitive recursive. But if we assume that the output of your box is truly random, then your definition leaves it indeterminate which of the above functions "|" actually is. Thus, as a function, "|" is ill-defined. tell us what all of the ordered pairs are or how to compute them, or that you know what they are, or embrace the known basic pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 < ... The formulation I learned was, briefly, < that any function that would naturally be regarded as computible can be < computed by a universal Turing machine. Once again, I made my opinion < on this absolutely clear [art. cit.]: < < Since a function is surely "computable" if a physical < system can be constructed that computes it, ... < < from which, I submit, the conclusion follows: < < ... the existence of true random-number generators directly < disproves the Church-Turing conjecture. I disagree. The point of my above argument is that true random-number generators do not satisfy the definition of a function, so the theory of Turing computability does not apply to them. as a function, "|" is ill-defined. tell us what all of the ordered pairs are or how to compute them, or that you know what they are, or embrace the known basic pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>֜PAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #99 Just one other point, to avoid possible confusion: A random variable IS normally defined as a function. However, it is not a function such as "|", but is instead the function which maps the sample space of a random experiment into the set of real numbers. In your example, the sample space is the set {0,1}, so to map this into the set of real numbers you can simply use the identity function. -- Dana S. Nau ARPA & CSNet: nau@mimsy.umd.edu Computer Sci. Dept., U. of Maryland UUCP: ...!{allegra,uunet}!mimsy!nau College Park, MD 20742 Telephone: (301) 454-7932 ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** em. as a function, "|" is ill-defined. tell us what all of the ordered pairs are or how to compute them, or that you know what they are, or embrace the known basic pp 97-117] development (of QM) is deliberately silent concerning any requirements that the Nature's Ultimate Cryptogram?", T. Erber & S. Putterman, Nature, Vol 317, 7 Nov. 1985, 41-43. Since this report, they have actually ion of it. The intuitive explanation of these properties places an intolerable strain on all interpretations of +l>޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final Progr` CONCURRENCY 88 Hamburg, Fed. Rep. of Germany, Oct.18.-19., 1988 Final Program An international conference on Concurrency will be held in connection with the annual conference of the German Society for Computer Science. The conference will emphasize the formal methods for distributed systems. The present great interest in this field results from expectations that formal methods will be a solution to the problem of handling the complexity of distributed systems. Up to now, the various methodological approaches, such as constructive or constraint-oriented methods, have not had an .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final ProgrHextensive comparative analysis, nor have they been investigated with respect to their possible practical implications. Particularly in Europe the different methods are considered to be more or less competitors, and investigations of the possible integration, combination and unification of the different methods have been neglected. In the United States, on the other hand, the discussion and cooperation among representatives of different methods is considerably more prevalent. Some of the most famous experts in this field will be presenting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final Progr- Faulttolerance - Distributed Databases Program Committee: H. Barringer (University of Manchester) M. Broy (University of Passau), D. Hogrefe (University of Hamburg(Org.)) B. Mahr (Technical University Berlin) G. Roucairol (Bull, Louveciennes) R. Schwartz (Borland International, Belmont) R. Valk (University of Hamburg (Vice chair)) F. Vogt (University of Hamburg (Chair)) nd cooperation among representatives of different methods is considerably more prevalent. Some of the most famous experts in this field will be presenting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final ProgrWelcome F. VOGT, Chairman Application I (invited), Chair: F. Vogt While Waiting for the Millennium: Formal Specification and Verification of Concurrent Systems Now, L. LAMPORT, DEC Systems Research Center, Palo Alto (U.S.A) A Framework for the Synthesis of Reactive Modules, A. PNUELI, The Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot (Israel) / Stanford University, Palo Alto (U.S.A.) Specification I (invited), Chair: R. Valk Modelling Knowledge and Action in Distributed Systems, J. HALPERN, perts in this field will be presenting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final ProgrR. FAGIN, IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose (U.S.A.) Requirements and Design Specification for Distributed Systems, M. BROY, University of Passau, (FRG) Application II (invited), Chair: F. Vogt Data Base Distribution and Concurrency for End-Users, R. SCHWARTZ, Borland International, Belmont (U.S.A.) On Safety and Timeliness in Distributed Data Management, D. DOLEV, H. R. STRONG,, IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose (U.S.A.) Specification II (invited), Chair: R. Valk J. HALPERN, perts in this field will be presenting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final Progr$An Automata-Theoretic Approach to Protocol Verification, M. VARDI, IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose (U.S.A.) On the Power of Cooperative Concurrency, D. DRUSINSKY, D. HAREL, The Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot (Israel) Application III, (invited), Chair: F. Vogt Executing Temporal Logic: Review and Prospects, H. BARRINGER, The University of Manchester, D. GABBAY, Imperial College, London (U.K.) A Graphical Representation of Interval Logic, P. M. MELLIAR-SMITH, University of California, Santa Barbara (U.S.A) enting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final Progr! Specification III, (invited), Chair: R. Valk Temporal Logic and Causality in Concurrent Systems, W. REISIG, GMD, St.-Augustin (FRG) Data in a Concurrent Environment, E. ASTESIANO, A. GIOVINI, G. REGGIO, University of Genova (Italy) Specification Languages I, Chair: D. Hogrefe The Scope and Limits of Synchronous Concurrent Computation, K. MEINKE, J. V. TUCKER, University of Leeds, (U.K.) A Logic-Functional Approach to the Execution of CCS Specifications Modulo Behavioral Equivalence, S. GNESI, P. INVERARDI, M. NESI, enting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final ProgrIEI-CNR, Pisa (Italy) Specification Languages II, Chair: D. Hogrefe A Top-down Step-wise Refinement Methodology for Protocol Specifications, D.-H. LI, T. MAIBAUM, Imperial College, London (U.K.) A State Transformation Equivalence of Concurrent Systems: Exhibited Functionality-equivalence, F. DE CINDIO, G. DE MICHELIS, L. POMELLO, C. SIMONE, University of Milan, (Italy) External Behaviour Equivalence between two Petri Nets, A. BOURGUET-ROUGER, CNET, Issy-le-Moulineaux (France) nce, S. GNESI, P. INVERARDI, M. NESI, enting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final ProgrModels for Distributed Systems I, Chair: B. Mahr Weighted Basic Petri Nets, E. BEST, GMD, St. Augustin, Schloa Birlinghofen (FRG) Total Algorithms, G. TEL, University of Utrecht, (Netherlands) Model for Distributed Systems II, Chair: M. Broy Semantics of Real-time Distributed Programs, G. ASIS, M. JOSEPH, University of Warwick, Coventry (U.K.) An Example of Communicating Production Systems, B. IGEL, G. REICHWEIN, University of Dortmund, (FRG) Issy-le-Moulineaux (France) nce, S. GNESI, P. INVERARDI, M. NESI, enting their research experiences during the conference as invited speakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final ProgrjVerification and Validation I, Chair: G. Roucairol Assertional Verification of a Majority Consensus Algorithm for Concurrency Control in Multiple Copy Databases, N. J. DROST, J. VAN LEEUWEN, University of Utrecht, (Netherlands) Analysis of ESTELLE Specifications, U. THALMANN, Technical University Vienna, (Austria) Verification and Validation II, Chair: G. Roucairol Optimal Synchronization of ABD Networks, E. KORACH, The Technion, Haifa, (Israel), G. TEL, University of Utrecht, (Netherlands), S. ZAKS, The Technion, Haifa, (Israel) Adequacy-Preserving Transformations of COSY Path Programs, eakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$޲THEORYNET halpern@IBM.COM Concurrency '88 -- Final ProgrnM. KOUTNY, The University of Newcastle, (U.K.) Deterministic Systems of Sequential Processes: Theory and Tools, Y. SOUISSI, Bull Research Laboratory, Louveciennes, N. BELDICEANU, MASI Laboratory, Paris, (France) For further information please contact: Prof. F. Vogt EAN-Mail: vogt@rz.informatik.uni-hamburg.dbp.de int. Tel.: + 49 40 4123 6160/6161 r: G. Roucairol Optimal Synchronization of ABD Networks, E. KORACH, The Technion, Haifa, (Israel), G. TEL, University of Utrecht, (Netherlands), S. ZAKS, The Technion, Haifa, (Israel) Adequacy-Preserving Transformations of COSY Path Programs, eakers. In detail the conference addresses the following topics: - Specification Languages for Concurrent Systems - Models for Distributed Systems - Verification and Validation - Knowledge Based Protocol Modelling .$SAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101  AIList Digest Tuesday, 11 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 101 Queries and Responses: MicroExplorer vs. MacIvory (still/again) address Xerox PARC TICOM Info on Automatic Reasoning Optical Character Recognition knowledge acquisition info Q1? A New AI Algebra? ES for Statistical Analysis - Summary of Responses Qualitative Reasoning mail-list Philip E. Slatter Address Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101  Date: 20 Sep 88 16:57:35 GMT From: sm.unisys.com!csun!polyslo!mshapiro@oberon.usc.edu (Joe AI) Subject: MicroExplorer vs. MacIvory (still/again) Well? Well? About three weeks ago I posted a request polling any users who have had experience with the Texas Instruments MicroExplorer and/or the Symbolics MacIvory machines. I received a number of replies -- all of them being requests to post the results. Nobody has sent any experienced based opinions. I understand there are some MacIvory beta units out there, and I know that TI has been shipping for some time. If you have any light that you can shed on on this, I'd appreciate you following up -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 to this article. I'd really like to see a good discussion ensue. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Sep 88 12:53:18 MET From: Hans Borgman Subject: query: address Xerox PARC In a recent issue of AI-List a review of the latest Spang Robinson Report was included. In it there was a discussion on Xerox PARC and their research on how people "actually do design-work". Since this is very close to my research, I would like to get in touch with the people at Xerox PARC. Who knows the name anyone involved at Xerox PARC (or elsewhere!) and his/her (Email-)address? Thanks in advance reciate you following up -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101  Hans Borgman Asst. Prof. Information Sciences Erasmus University Rotterdam P.O. Box 1738 3000 DR Rotterdam The Netherlands BITNET: hborgman@hroeur1 ------------------------------ Date: 26 September 88, 21:05:10 From: Ramu Kannan KANNAN at SUVM Subject: TICOM I am interested in expert systems that can be used for evaluating internal controls. Does anyone know the status of TICOM, a computer close to my research, I would like to get in touch with the people at Xerox PARC. Who knows the name anyone involved at Xerox PARC (or elsewhere!) and his/her (Email-)address? Thanks in advance reciate you following up -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 assisted method of modeling and evaluating internal control systems? Has it been fully developed and if so, what are it capabilities? Are there any other packages? Ramu Kannan Bitnet address: KANNAN@SUVM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Sep 88 12:47:57 EST From: munnari!nswitgould.oz.au!osborn@uunet.UU.NET (Tom Osborn) Subject: Re: Info on Automatic Reasoning Contact A/Prof Graham Wrightson (now) at Newcastle Uni. (probably graham@nucs.oz). The network to Newcastle is very very very poor so you may have to call him by phone. Alternatively, get a copy of 'AI in Australia' from A/Prof John Debenham -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 at UTS. AIIA list all AI activities in oz by category and researcher. (A/Prof J K Debenham, School of Computing Sciences, University of Technology, Sydney, PO Box 123 BROADWAY 2007.) Cheers, Tomasso. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 88 02:55:49 GMT From: glacier!jbn@labrea.stanford.edu (John B. Nagle) Subject: Re: Optical Character Recognition Kurtzweil and Palantir both build special-purpose machines to do ontact A/Prof Graham Wrightson (now) at Newcastle Uni. (probably graham@nucs.oz). The network to Newcastle is very very very poor so you may have to call him by phone. Alternatively, get a copy of 'AI in Australia' from A/Prof John Debenham -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 general multi-font character recognition. Their algorithms are proprietary. The Palantir unit is said to have about 300 MIPS of computational power inside. Doing this badly is easy. Doing it well is very, very hard. John Nagle ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 88 20:36:09 GMT From: gao@bu-cs.bu.edu (Yong Gao) Subject: knowledge acquisition info More requests! Could somebody tell me where to order proceedings for: astle Uni. (probably graham@nucs.oz). The network to Newcastle is very very very poor so you may have to call him by phone. Alternatively, get a copy of 'AI in Australia' from A/Prof John Debenham -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 } 1. the 5th Machine Intelligence workshop 2. the Knowledge Acquisition for Knowledge Based Systems Workshop, Banff, Canada, 1986 and 1987. Thanks. Yong Gao (gao@bu-cs.bu.edu) Dept. of Computer Science Boston University ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 88 06:12:14 GMT From: portal!cup.portal.com!spl@uunet.uu.net Subject: Q1? A New AI Algebra? o) Subject: knowledge acquisition info More requests! Could somebody tell me where to order proceedings for: astle Uni. (probably graham@nucs.oz). The network to Newcastle is very very very poor so you may have to call him by phone. Alternatively, get a copy of 'AI in Australia' from A/Prof John Debenham -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 g I read in Science News (September 3, 1988) that Brian Williams of MIT has developed a new mathematics for use in AI called "Q1". Has anyone received any definitions of this "new algebra"? I would be very interested in any information about this Q1 that can be passed along to me at the following UseNet address. Thanks in advance, Shawn P. Legrand +-----------------------------+ | spl@cup.portal.com | | or | | ...sun!cup.portal.com!spl | +-----------------------------+ ------------------------------ -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 * Date: 4 Oct 88 16:49:00 GMT From: goldfain@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Q1? A New AI Algebra? This was presented in a paper at AAAI-88, so you can get the details from the proceedings. Brian won one of the "best paper" awards presented by the editors of the conference proceedings. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 88 09:12 CDT From: Subject: ES for Statistical Analysis - Summary of Responses To all those who sent me mail requesting a summary of responses I received | spl@cup.portal.com | | or | | ...sun!cup.portal.com!spl | +-----------------------------+ ------------------------------ -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 for my query on Commercial Expert Systems for Statistical Analysis, here is a summary of all the responses I have received so far: %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From: Todd.Kaufmann@NL.CS.CMU.EDU To: KDM2520@TAMSIGMA.BITNET Subject: re: Expert Systems for Statistical Analysis There is a program called REX, which is an expert system for regression analysis. See the books "Artificial Intelligence & Statistics", edited by Wm. A Gale, and also "Discovering Causal Structure: artificial intelligence, philosophy of science, and statistical modeling" by Clark Glymour, Peter Spirtes, Kevin Kelly, & ?. | | ...sun!cup.portal.com!spl | +-----------------------------+ ------------------------------ -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 b%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From: Dick (R.D.) Peacocke Subject: Expert Systems for Statistical Analysis Sender: Dick (R.D.) Peacocke A company called KnowledgeWorks has developed " an exploratory data analysis/knowledge acquisition package called TEASE -- jointly funded by the National Research Council (Canada). TEASE has been used to conduct a variety of data analysis tasks leading to rule induction" ...."the preliminary step in expert systems construction." The quotes are from their advertising blurb. We've started to use the system a liitle bit on some software quality and hardware manufacturing data. TEASE isn't really an expert system for statistical analysis, more the reverse, statistical analysis for an expert system, but I thought you --- -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 might be interested anyway. For more details contact KnowledgeWorks Research Systems Ltd. 57 Stevenson Ave. Ottawa CANADA K1Z 6M9 phone (613) 725-0633 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From: Dick (R.D.) Peacocke Subject: Another ES for Statistical Analysis Sender: Dick (R.D.) Peacocke At AAAI '88 a "software user consultant for statistics" was mentioned by Prof. Raj Reddy in his Presidential Address. the preliminary step in expert systems construction." The quotes are from their advertising blurb. We've started to use the system a liitle bit on some software quality and hardware manufacturing data. TEASE isn't really an expert system for statistical analysis, more the reverse, statistical analysis for an expert system, but I thought you --- -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 He was listing some AI achievements, and included this system in the list. It's under development at AT&T apparently - you might like to contact them or Reddy to get more details. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Many of the other responses I received were information regarding William Gale's book. I thank all the readers who responded to my request and I will appreciate any additional information available on this. Thank you again. Murali Krishnamurthi MURALI@TAMLSR (BITNET) Knowledge Based Systems Lab MURALI@LSR.TAMU.EDU (ARPANET) Texas A&M University KDM2520@TAMSIGMA (BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 09:49:38 GMT erse, statistical analysis for an expert system, but I thought you --- -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 From: mcvax!hp4nl!swivax!bert@uunet.uu.net (Bert Bredeweg) Subject: Qualitative Reasoning mail-list I have been told that there is a mailing list for Qualitative Reasoning (or that it is being set up). Can anyone give me more information about this (like: the correct e-mail address; how do I become a member; etc) ? Thanks in advance, Bert Bredeweg University of Amsterdam Department of Social Science Informatics (S.W.I.) Herengracht 196 1016 BS Amsterdam (The Netherlands) MURALI@TAMLSR (BITNET) Knowledge Based Systems Lab MURALI@LSR.TAMU.EDU (ARPANET) Texas A&M University KDM2520@TAMSIGMA (BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 09:49:38 GMT erse, statistical analysis for an expert system, but I thought you --- -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101  Phone: +31-20-245365 ext. 13 E-mail: bert@swivax.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 88 04:01:04 GMT From: fordjm@byuvax.bitnet Subject: Philip E. Slatter Address Request Can anyone supply me with an address (e-mail or regular mail) for Philip E. Slatter of Telecomputing plc, Oxford? [Dr. Slatter is the author of Building Expert Systems: Cognitive Emulation (1987).] ent of Social Science Informatics (S.W.I.) Herengracht 196 1016 BS Amsterdam (The Netherlands) MURALI@TAMLSR (BITNET) Knowledge Based Systems Lab MURALI@LSR.TAMU.EDU (ARPANET) Texas A&M University KDM2520@TAMSIGMA (BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 09:49:38 GMT erse, statistical analysis for an expert system, but I thought you --- -rLSAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #101 Thanks, John M. Ford Brigham Young University 131 Starcrest Drive fordjm@byuvax.bitnet Orem, UT 84058 USA (801) 224-3974 ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** regular mail) for Philip E. Slatter of Telecomputing plc, Oxford? [Dr. Slatter is the author of Building Expert Systems: Cognitive Emulation (1987).] ent of Social Science Informatics (S.W.I.) Herengracht 196 1016 BS Amsterdam (The Netherlands) MURALI@TAMLSR (BITNET) Knowledge Based Systems Lab MURALI@LSR.TAMU.EDU (ARPANET) Texas A&M University KDM2520@TAMSIGMA (BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 09:49:38 GMT erse, statistical analysis for an expert system, but I thought you --- -rL&PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Zirconium ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 88 15:34:09 GMT From: jthomaso@afit-ab.arpa (John E. Thomason III) Article-I.D.: <625@afit-ab.arpa> The latest edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics lists the temperature coefficient of resistivity for Zirconium at 20 degs C as: 0.0044 per deg C The footnote says that data is not available to indicate range over which coefficient is valid. Does anyone know of another reference for this property that lists the value for Zr in the 1000 to 2000 deg K range? Please use email for the reply. Thank you. -------- John E. Thomason, III O&PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Zirconium OARPANET: jthomaso@blackbird.afit.af.mil -------------------------------- 8 15:34:09 GMT From: jthomaso@afit-ab.arpa (John E. Thomason III) Article-I.D.: <625@afit-ab.arpa> The latest edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics lists the temperature coefficient of resistivity for Zirconium at 20 degs C as: 0.0044 per deg C The footnote says that data is not available to indicate range over which coefficient is valid. Does anyone know of another reference for this property that lists the value for Zr in the 1000 to 2000 deg K range? Please use email for the reply. Thank you. -------- John E. Thomason, III OܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 , AIList Digest Tuesday, 11 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 102 Even More Queries and Responses: Implementation of Evidential Reasoning Expert systems and weather forecasting Concept Learning & ID3 (Quinlan) Genetic Learning Algorithms AI applications to building design and construction Language Translator (lisp) Fuzzy Relational Data Bases Looking for common-sense engineering situations Dictionary or Thesaurus Info on PROTEGE/RIME ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  Date: 4 Oct 88 13:51:48 GMT From: efrethei@afit-ab.arpa (Erik J. Fretheim) Subject: Implementation of Evidential Reasoning Does anyone have an implementation which evaluates Evidential Reasoning prepositions (Dempster-Schafer Theory). I would perfer an Ada package but am not extremely particular. thank you. ejf ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 88 15:25:53 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!reading!cf-cm!cybaswan!cslaurie@uunet.uu.net (Laurie Moseley ) Subject: Expert systems and weather forecasting ------------------------- .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  ########################################################################## I'm trying to find out if anyone is working on expert systems in weather forecasting. Names, addresses, references ... would all be welcome. With thanks in advance Laurence Moseley ########################################################################## Laurie Moseley Computer Science, University College, Swansea SA2 8PP, UK Tel: +44 792 295399 ubject: Expert systems and weather forecasting ------------------------- .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 ] JANET: cslaurie@uk.ac.swan.pyr ########################################################################### ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 88 10:33:52 GMT From: mcvax!prlb2!kulcs!uiag!gerrit@uunet.uu.net (Cap Gerrit) Subject: Concept Learning & ID3 (Quinlan) Does anybody out there in the world has an implementation of the ID3 algorithm of Quinlan ?? Or (not exclusive) of the CLS algorithm of Hunt which is being used in ID3. A very good description of these algo's would also being appreciated ! We have developped a theoretical framework of a concept learning algo .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 .and as an example I have a model in our framework which should be a simulation of this ID3 algo. Unfortunately I didn't found much more than a vage description of ID3 in various books and papers. What I want to do is to make an implemantation of our framework and testing the simulation against the original ID3. It would be fine if the implementation was in C or in Prolog but other languages would do also. Gerrit Cap Dep. of Mathematics and Computer Science University of Antwerp Belgium (Europe) mail address : ...!prlb2!uiag!gerrit oretical framework of a concept learning algo .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 I'm sorry if this posting is a bit unusual to other news readers but this is my first posting. Also I want to appologise for my bad English and the limited mail address. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 88 17:13 GMT From: umix!caen.engin.umich.edu!offutt@uunet.UU.NET (daniel m offutt) Subject: Genetic Learning Algorithms > In addition, offutt@caen.engin.umich.edu (Daniel M. Offutt) is > offering a GA function optimization package. Contact him for details. Rather, a package is available from John Grefenstette (gref@nrl-aic.arpa). Ask him for his package called "GENESIS" and ask him to put you on the .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 "GA-LIST" mailing list while you are at it. I have used John's package extensively and can recommend it highly. But I did not write it and it is not available from me. For more details, see my post on genetic algorithms and John's package on sci.physics or sci.math.stat, a few weeks back. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Offutt offutt@caen.engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 88 21:26:58 GMT From: sean@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Sean McLinden) Subject: AI applications to building design and construction I am well aware of a number of AI applications to CAD that are used .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 1in building design, but I am curious to know if anyone has looked at the various processes that occur during the engineering phase of a project. It seems to me that the process is quite interesting. I don't propose to know a lot about it, but once the architect has finished the basic design it is left to the engineer to determine what materials and methods to use for the support systems (this is a GROSS oversimpli- fication, I realize). (S)he, in turn, must approach subsystem engineers for things like mechanical, electrical, plumbing designs. These, to carry it further, will deal with the contractors, and their suppliers, to get estimates of the cost and strenghth of material, the availablility of components, and the like. The whole process goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 a type of structured query (no reflection on the relational database), that is to say. There is a common expertise between participants which allows them to make decisions quickly by sifting through a lot of information while retrieving only that which pertains to the problem at hand. Considering the number of dollars involved in U.S. Government funded construction, it seems that GSA or OMB might be interested in developing such a system. It would, of course, require a set of standards for expressing certain concepts which almost assuredly does not exist in the industry, already. Any pointers would be appreciated. Sean McLinden Decision Systems Laboratory University of Pittsburgh lility of components, and the like. The whole process goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 88 12:41:34 GMT From: mcvax!enea!kth!draken!chalmers!tekn01.chalmers.se!m85_miche@uune t.uu.net (When lispers hack ... the fun begun) Subject: Language Translator (lisp) Hello Out there ! Is there by any chance anyone sitting on a source translating some language to another ? I've heard that there is some tryings to translate English to Chinese .... is there any truth in that ? Which litterature can I seek what I want ? ds for expressing certain concepts which almost assuredly does not exist in the industry, already. Any pointers would be appreciated. Sean McLinden Decision Systems Laboratory University of Pittsburgh lility of components, and the like. The whole process goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  Thanks for any reply ! /Michel ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 88 17:26:11 GMT From: mailrus!ncar!tank!tartarus.uchicago.edu!mitchell@ohio-state.arpa (Mitchell Marks) Subject: Re: Language Translator (lisp) In article <227@tekn01.chalmers.se> m85_miche@tekn01.chalmers.se writes: :Is there by any chance anyone sitting on a source translating some :language to another ? : :I've heard that there is some tryings to translate English to eek what I want ? ds for expressing certain concepts which almost assuredly does not exist in the industry, already. Any pointers would be appreciated. Sean McLinden Decision Systems Laboratory University of Pittsburgh lility of components, and the like. The whole process goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 :Chinese .... is there any truth in that ? : :Which litterature can I seek what I want ? _Computational_Linguistics_ had a couple special issues on machine translation not too long ago: Vol 11 No. 1 (January-March 1985) and Vol 11 Nos. 2-3 (April-Sept 1985) with a review article by Jonathan Slocum in the first issue and reports of particular projects filling out the rest of these issues. A recent book on this topic is _Machine_Translation:_Theoretical_and_ methodological_issues, ed. Sergei Nirenburg, Cambridge U.P. 1987. The volume starts with overview articles by Nirenburg and by Allan Tucker, and contains articles addressing a variety of issues. -- Mitch Marks mitchell@tartarus.UChicago.EDU whole process goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 88 21:09:11 GMT From: mailrus!eecae!cps3xx!usenet@ohio-state.arpa (Usenet file owner) Subject: Fuzzy Relational Data Bases Hi, I am looking for a paper by Zemankova-Leech, M., and A. Kandel "Fuzzy Relational Data Bases - A Key to Expert Systems." Verlag TUV Rheinland, Koln, Germany. Is there anybody who can tell me where I can find it ? Thanks a lot. Kuan, Yih-pyng on:_Theoretical_and_ methodological_issues, ed. Sergei Nirenburg, Cambridge U.P. 1987. The volume starts with overview articles by Nirenburg and by Allan Tucker, and contains articles addressing a variety of issues. -- Mitch Marks mitchell@tartarus.UChicago.EDU whole process goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 5Dept. of Computer Science Michigan State University kuan@cpsvax.msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 88 05:17:18 GMT From: csli!rustcat@labrea.stanford.edu (Vallury Prabhakar) Subject: Looking for common-sense engineering situations Hello, I am looking for books/literature which contains a (hopefully) large collection of engineering problems based on day-to-day phenomena. I include in this definition, ways and means of roughly approximating the required characteristics such as, say Young's modulus, frictional overview articles by Nirenburg and by Allan Tucker, and contains articles addressing a variety of issues. -- Mitch Marks mitchell@tartarus.UChicago.EDU whole process goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  coefficients, etc. As might be apparent, I am mainly interested in problems related to Mechanical Engineering subjects such as S of M, Dynamics, statics, controls, fluids etc. The problems should be mainly solvable by basic engineering theory, and indeed should test the complete understanding of these basic concepts by the person trying to solve them. Some example problems that I can think of are: 1) Given a flexible rod of certain dimensions, how would you find the Young's modulus? 2) You're given the wheel of a car, and a torsional shaft. How would you approximate the Ip of the wheel? 3) Why is it apparently easier to turn a screw with a long screw- driver than a shorter one? cess goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  Hopefully, this gives you an idea of what I wish to find. What I *don't* want is "Oh, you need a basic book on Dynamics/Statics/whatever". I do not need any more theoretical background and derivations. I have those, thank you very much. What I wish to find is a collection of seemingly trivial and unimportant problems whose solution lies in these truly basic principles. I have a sneaky suspicion that I might get flamed for putting this in comp.ai. If this is in violation of USENET practice, I apologize. I was unable to think of/find any other relevant newsgroup, and besides where would AI be without principles of common sense engineering? Enjoy. -- Vallury Prabhakar er one? cess goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 5 -- rustcat@cnc-sun.stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 88 13:15:57 GMT From: uflorida!mailrus!eecae!cps3xx!usenet@gatech.edu (Usenet file owner) Subject: Dictionary or Thesaurus We are working on a natural language processing program and need an english dictionary or thesaurus which, for each word, lists the part of speech of that word. Does anyone know where we can get such a file? -brian ------------------------------ er relevant newsgroup, and besides where would AI be without principles of common sense engineering? Enjoy. -- Vallury Prabhakar er one? cess goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102  Date: 8 Oct 88 21:00:26 GMT From: suroy@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu (Subrata Roy) Subject: Info on PROTEGE/RIME In the recent AAAI-88 invited talk on "Knowledge acquisiton..." John Mcdermott mentioned about two systems PROTEGE & RIME which provide a methodology for defining problem solving methods. I would appreciate if anyone can help me find out about these systems by pointing out suitable references. thanks, -Subrata e know where we can get such a file? -brian ------------------------------ er relevant newsgroup, and besides where would AI be without principles of common sense engineering? Enjoy. -- Vallury Prabhakar er one? cess goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@ܡAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #102 -- ___ Subrata Roy ARPA: suroy@paul.rutgers.edu suroy@aramis.rutgers.edu UUCP: {ames, cbosgd, harvard, moss}!rutgers!paul.rutgers.edu!suroy ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** E & RIME which provide a methodology for defining problem solving methods. I would appreciate if anyone can help me find out about these systems by pointing out suitable references. thanks, -Subrata e know where we can get such a file? -brian ------------------------------ er relevant newsgroup, and besides where would AI be without principles of common sense engineering? Enjoy. -- Vallury Prabhakar er one? cess goes through a number of iterations. What seems interesting about it is how much information is available during this process, yet most of the decision-makers need only know a selected amount in order to answer specific questions posed to them. In that sense information transfer between agents involves .S@cPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Earth's Magnetic Field ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Oct 88 01:43:22 GMT From: todd@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Todd/Dr. Nethack) Article-I.D.: <1272@nmtsun.nmt.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <122@avatar.UUCP> In article <122@avatar.UUCP> kory@avatar.UUCP (Kory Hamzeh) writes: >What is the strength of the Earth's magnetic field? The American Geophysical Union has published a book with that very same title.. The copy I have is a paperback, an cost around 25-30 dollars. It IS worth the money. Very well written, with fairly exhaustive treatment of how to arrive at measurements. And who has done what in the field, and how. GccPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Earth's Magnetic Field  If you are looking for information on the Earth's field, that would be a good place to start, or even begin setting up some modelling. Moreover, if you have big trouble getting ahold of the book, send me mail, and I will mail (or if volume is large enough post) the ISBN number and the other pertinent stuff. --nethack -- todd@jupiter.nmt.edu / nmtsun!todd Dr. Nethack: Box 3693 c/s Socorro, Nm. 87801 -------------------------------- aperback, an cost around 25-30 dollars. It IS worth the money. Very well written, with fairly exhaustive treatment of how to arrive at measurements. And who has done what in the field, and how. GcdEBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU taxonomic databases Date: 7 Oct 88 12:44:41 GMT From: mcvax!hp4nl!botter!star.cs.vu.nl!roelw%cs.vu.nl@uunet.uu.net Organization: VU Informatica, Amsterdam Subject: taxonomic databases Message-Id: <1486@star.cs.vu.nl> Sender: dave%umdc.BITNET@jade.berkeley.edu To: incoming-biotech@daresbury.ac.uk Currently I am comparing the taxonomic structures used database technology with those used in biological systematics. Is there any research being done on the formal modeling of taxonomic data in biology, and on the implementation of an on-line database of those data? Any pointers to literature, research projects, researchers etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks %dEBIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU taxonomic databases Roel Wieringa Dept. of Mathematics & Computer Science, Vrije Universiteit, De Boelelaan 1081 1081 HV Amsterdam, Netherlands roelw@cs.vu.nl onomic databases Message-Id: <1486@star.cs.vu.nl> Sender: dave%umdc.BITNET@jade.berkeley.edu To: incoming-biotech@daresbury.ac.uk Currently I am comparing the taxonomic structures used database technology with those used in biological systematics. Is there any research being done on the formal modeling of taxonomic data in biology, and on the implementation of an on-line database of those data? Any pointers to literature, research projects, researchers etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks %T@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100  AIList Digest Tuesday, 11 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 100 More on ... The Ignorant assumption (6 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Sep 88 07:51:15 GMT From: quintus!ok@unix.sri.com (Richard A. O'Keefe) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption In article <7202@aw.sei.cmu.edu> firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes: > Since a function is surely "computable" if a physical ******** > system can be constructed that computes it, ... >from which, I submit, the conclusion follows: > ... the existence of true random-number generators directly +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 > disproves the Church-Turing conjecture. >Granted, one can readily evade this conclusion. It is necessary merely >to redefine "natural", "computable", "function", or some other key term. It is not necessary to REdefine "function", only to use the usual meaning. Given the same inputs, a function must always yield the same output(s). The kind of physical system Firth has described is a realisation of a(n indexed) random variable, and it has been held for many years that "true random numbers" are not computable. (See section 3.5 ("What is a random sequence") of Knuth's "The Art of Computer Programming, Vol 2", this statement is implicit in definition R6. The original question was a purely rhetorical one (I _don't_ believe that the universe is a Turing machine), but it's worth pointing out that we only have a finite set of imprecise observations, so that a sufficiently good simulation of a quantum-mechanical system (with top-notch pseudo- +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 random number generation!) *might* be fooling us. You can only appeal to phsyical random number generators to disprove the Church-Turing hypothesis if you assume that the quantum-mechanical laws a really true, which is to say if you already assume that the universe is not running on a Turing machine. I believe it, but a circular "proof" like that is no proof! ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 14:00:44 GMT From: uhccux!lee@humu.nosc.mil (Greg Lee) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption From article <13791@mimsy.UUCP>, by nau@mimsy.UUCP (Dana S. Nau): " In article <7202@aw.sei.cmu.edu> firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes: " ... " < of as a mapping " < tion was a purely rhetorical one (I _don't_ believe that the universe is a Turing machine), but it's worth pointing out that we only have a finite set of imprecise observations, so that a sufficiently good simulation of a quantum-mechanical system (with top-notch pseudo- +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 " < {0,1} => 0|1 " ... " As far as I can see, what you have defined is not a function. A function is There are a couple (>=2) of things I don't understand about this discussion: Why does it matter whether Turing machines compute functions? If one wants to compute non-functional relations, why not just define the machines accordingly? If there's a terminological problem, then call the machines something else. What does it matter to Church's thesis whether what is computed is a function? Sometimes the thesis is phrased using the word function, but is that essential to the thesis? And anyhow, why can't `0|1' be considered a single value? < of as a mapping " < tion was a purely rhetorical one (I _don't_ believe that the universe is a Turing machine), but it's worth pointing out that we only have a finite set of imprecise observations, so that a sufficiently good simulation of a quantum-mechanical system (with top-notch pseudo- +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 * Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 88 20:34:32 GMT From: garth!smryan@unix.sri.com (Steven Ryan) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption >random number generation!) *might* be fooling us. You can only appeal to >phsyical random number generators to disprove the Church-Turing hypothesis >if you assume that the quantum-mechanical laws a really true, which is to >say if you already assume that the universe is not running on a Turing machine. >I believe it, but a circular "proof" like that is no proof! Well, just to keep things straight, I'm the one who mentionned TM and CT. I used them as a conditionals, `If the universe was a TM, then such and such would follow.' It wasn't intended to assert, prove, or disprove CT, but just ting out that we only have a finite set of imprecise observations, so that a sufficiently good simulation of a quantum-mechanical system (with top-notch pseudo- +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 engage in withywanderring philosophical speculation. To me, the Ignorant Assumption is not any particular theory or religion, but the meta-assumption that assumptions are unnecessary. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 88 04:36:59 GMT From: romeo!nlt@cs.duke.edu (N. L. Tinkham) Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption I have no objection to the formulation "any function that would naturally be regarded as computable can be computed by a universal Turing machine", as long as it is clear that being "naturally...regarded as computable" includes the list of conditions associated with algorithms. Setting aside those conditions would introduce a broader definition of "computable" than is in uch would follow.' It wasn't intended to assert, prove, or disprove CT, but just ting out that we only have a finite set of imprecise observations, so that a sufficiently good simulation of a quantum-mechanical system (with top-notch pseudo- +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 common use; such a definition may well be interesting to consider, but it might reduce confusion to use a different term (say, "q-computable"). The claim that "a function is surely 'computable' if a physical system can be constructed that computes it" is the disputed point. In order to believe that a function f is computable, I will require that I be shown that there is an algorithm by which f may be computed. This algorithm need not be a Turing-machine program (if that were the case, the thesis would indeed be trivial), but it should conform to the general requirements of an algorithm: ability to be specified in a description of finite length, computation in discrete steps, and so forth. And one of these requirements is that the computation should not use random methods. (Reference, again, is to chapter 1 of Rogers' text. Falsifying the Church-Turing thesis would require presenting a function f for which such an algorithm exists, and then showing that f cannot be computed on a Turing machine. +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100  [We have drifted quite far from religion here. Followups are directed to comp.ai.] Nancy Tinkham {decvax,rutgers}!mcnc!duke!nlt nlt@cs.duke.edu ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 88 05:18:16 GMT From: vax5!w25y@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption The Church-Turing thesis deals with relations that always give the same is would indeed be trivial), but it should conform to the general requirements of an algorithm: ability to be specified in a description of finite length, computation in discrete steps, and so forth. And one of these requirements is that the computation should not use random methods. (Reference, again, is to chapter 1 of Rogers' text. Falsifying the Church-Turing thesis would require presenting a function f for which such an algorithm exists, and then showing that f cannot be computed on a Turing machine. +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 output value for a given input value. Any quantum-generated random function would not have this property. -- Paul Ciszek W25Y@CRNLVAX5 Bitnet W25Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU Internet ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 88 15:31:43 GMT From: shire!ian@psuvax1.psu.edu (Ian Parberry) Subject: Ignorance about the ignorant assumption In article <7202@aw.sei.cmu.edu> firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes: >To elaborate: I can build a box, whose main constituents are a supply >of photons and a half-silvered mirrir, that, when triggered, will emit inite length, computation in discrete steps, and so forth. And one of these requirements is that the computation should not use random methods. (Reference, again, is to chapter 1 of Rogers' text. Falsifying the Church-Turing thesis would require presenting a function f for which such an algorithm exists, and then showing that f cannot be computed on a Turing machine. +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 \>at random either the value "0" or the value "1". This can be thought >of as a mapping > > {0,1} => 0|1 > >where I introduce "|" to designate the operator that arbitrarily selects >one of its operands. The obvious generalisation of this - the function >that selects an arbitrary member of an input set - is surely not unfamiliar. > >Nobody has denied that a Turing machine can't do this. The assertion that >a physical system can do it rests on the quantum theory; in particular on >the proposition that the indeterminacy this theory ascribes to the >physical world is irreducible. Since every attempt to build an alternative >deterministic theory has foundered, and no prediction of the quantum theory >has yet been falsified, this rests on pretty strong ground. Have I missed something here? Theoretical Computer Scientists have Falsifying the Church-Turing thesis would require presenting a function f for which such an algorithm exists, and then showing that f cannot be computed on a Turing machine. +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 been stepping beyond the bounds of the Church-Turing thesis for years. The obvious question which was first asked a long time ago (I believe that Michael Rabin was amongst the first to do so) is whether the kind of randomness described above helps computation. An obvious answer is that it sometimes helps speed things up. For example, there are several polynomial time probabilistic primality testing algorithms, but no deterministic one is known (although it must be admitted that one exists if the Riemann Hypothesis is true). The Church-Turing thesis is not and never has been a sacred cow amongst Theoretical Computer Scientists. Most view it as a handy rule of thumb, and nothing else. It's not hard to invent machines which violate the Church-Turing thesis. The hard part is developing a non-trivial, entertaining, elegant and useful theory of computation around them. My favourite work of this kind is on non-uniform circuit complexity. Curiously, many lower-bounds proved to date hold for non-uniform machine. +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 (read non-Church-Turing- thesis) circuits, and have matching uniform (read Church-Turing-thesis) upper-bounds. Most of the postings I've seen to date have been from non-TCS people. However, since the Church-Turing thesis is a part of Theoretical Computer Science, it is worth finding out what the TCS'ers have had to say about it. For a ton of reading, look for articles that mention the key words probabilistic algorithm, RP, BPP, RNC in the proceedings from the IEEE Symposium on Foundations of Computer Science and the ACM Symposium on the Theory of Computing for the last decade. For more polished but less up-to-date material, consult theory journals such as SIAM J. Computing, Journal of the ACM, Theoretical Computer Science, Journal of Computer and System Sciences, Journal of Algorithms, Information Processing Letters. Of course, I'm not saying that Theoretical Computer Scientists have his kind is on non-uniform circuit complexity. Curiously, many lower-bounds proved to date hold for non-uniform machine. +ϤtT@Tl AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #100 all of the answers. But they do seem to have made a good try at addressing the obvious questions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ian Parberry "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureaucracy" ian@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ian@psuvax1.BITNET ian@psuvax1.UUCP (814) 863-3600 Dept of Comp Sci, 333 Whitmore Lab, Penn State Univ, University Park, Pa 16802 ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** posium on the Theory of Computing for the last decade. For more polished but less up-to-date material, consult theory journals such as SIAM J. Computing, Journal of the ACM, Theoretical Computer Science, Journal of Computer and System Sciences, Journal of Algorithms, Information Processing Letters. Of course, I'm not saying that Theoretical Computer Scientists have his kind is on non-uniform circuit complexity. Curiously, many lower-bounds proved to date hold for non-uniform machine. +ϤtTKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103  AIList Digest Tuesday, 11 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 103 Philosophy: State and change/continuous actions Continuity and computability Belief and awareness Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? The Grand Challenge is Foolish ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 88 12:18:24 GMT From: steve@hubcap.UUCP ("Steve" Stevenson) Subject: Re: state and change/continuous actions .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 _From a previous article, by smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan): > > Continuous systems are computably using calculus, but is this `effective > computation?' Calculus uses a number of existent theorems which prove some > point or set exists, but provide no method to effectively compute the value. Clearly numerical analysis emulates continuous systems. In the phil of math, this is, of course, an issue. For those denying reals but allowing the actual infinity of integers, NA is as good as the Tm. Not only are there existence theorems for point sets, but such theorems as the Peano Kernel Theorem are effective computations. At the point set level, one uses things called ``simple functions''. BTW, you're being too restrictive. There are many ``continuous'' systems which have a denumerable number of points of nondifferentiablity: there .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 Zare several ways to handle this (e.g., measure theory). These are not ``calculus'' in the usual sense. Important applications are in diffusion and probability. So, is Riemann-Stiltjes the only true calculus? Nah. There's one per view. -- Steve (really "D. E.") Stevenson steve@hubcap.clemson.edu Department of Computer Science, (803)656-5880.mabell Clemson University, Clemson, SC 29634-1906 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Oct 88 13:49:33 GMT From: Mr Jack Campin Subject: continuity and computability el Theorem are effective computations. At the point set level, one uses things called ``simple functions''. BTW, you're being too restrictive. There are many ``continuous'' systems which have a denumerable number of points of nondifferentiablity: there .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 > smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) wrote: >> "Insufficient attention has been paid to the problem of continuous >> actions." Now, a question that immediately comes to mind is "What problem?" > Continuous systems are computable using calculus, but is this `effective > computation?' Calculus uses a number of existence theorems which prove some > point or set exists, but provide no method to effectively compute the value. > It is not clear that all natural phenomena can be modelled on the discrete > and finite digital computer. If not, what computer could we use? I brought up this same point in the Usenet sci.logic newsgroup a short while ago. There is a precise sense in which analogue computers are more powerful than digital ones - i.e. there are continuous phenomena unsimulatable on a Turing machine. s of nondifferentiablity: there .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103  Most of the work on this has been done by Marian Pour-El and her coworkers. An early paper is "A computable ordinary differential equation which possesses no computable solution", Annals of Mathematical Logic, volume 17, 1979, pages 61-90. This result is a bit of a cheat (the way the equation is set up has little relation to anything in the physical world) but I believe later papers tighten it up somewhat (one uses the wave equation, which you'd expect to be a powerful computing device given that interferometers can calculate Fourier transforms in constant time). I haven't seen these later articles, though. -- Jack Campin, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, SCOTLAND. 041 339 8855 x6045 wk 041 556 1878 ho ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk USENET: jack@glasgow.uucp JANET: jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs PLINGnet: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack ------------------------------ .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103  Date: 5 Oct 88 17:59:14 PDT From: "Joseph Y. Halpern" Subject: Belief and awareness In response to Fabrizio Sebastiani's question of Sept. 23 regarding further work on Fagin and my notion of "awareness", here is what I am aware of: (a) Kurt Konolige wrote a critique of the paper which appeared in the proceedings of the 1986 Conference on Theoretical Aspects of Reasoning About Knowledge; (b) Robert Hadley wrote a critique (and discussed other ways of dealing with the problem) which appeared as a Tech Report at Simon Fraser University (the exact reference can be found in the journal version of our paper, which appears in Artificial Intelligence, vol. 34, pp. 39-76); (c) Yoram Moses provided a model for polynomial time knowledge, which can be viewed as a notion of awareness; Yoram's paper appears in the proceedings of the 1988 Conference on Theoretical Aspects of Reasoning About Knowledge; (d) Mark Tuttle, Yoram Moses, and I have .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 a paper in the 1988 Symposium on Theory of Computing which focuses on zero-knowledge protocols, but also extends Yoram's definitions to deal with learning. -- Joe Halpern ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 88 12:54:39 GMT From: TAURUS.BITNET!shani@ucbvax.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? In article <1141@usfvax2.EDU>, mician@usfvax2.BITNET writes: > > When can a machine be considered a conscious entity? > Oh no! not that again! ;-) Tech Report at Simon Fraser University (the exact reference can be found in the journal version of our paper, which appears in Artificial Intelligence, vol. 34, pp. 39-76); (c) Yoram Moses provided a model for polynomial time knowledge, which can be viewed as a notion of awareness; Yoram's paper appears in the proceedings of the 1988 Conference on Theoretical Aspects of Reasoning About Knowledge; (d) Mark Tuttle, Yoram Moses, and I have .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 Okay, I'll make it short and somewhat cyinc this time: The answer is: NEVER! You see andy, the only reason for you to assume that there is such a thing as a conscious entity at all, is that otherwise, YOU are not a conscious entity, and that probebly sounds nonsense to you (Actualy when saying that, I already take a dangerious step forward, assuming that YOU ARE... the only thing I can know is that I AM a conscious entity...). I hope that helps... O.S. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 88 18:21:51 GMT From: uwslh!lishka@spool.cs.wisc.edu (Fish-Guts) Reply-to: uwslh!lishka@spool.cs.wisc.edu (Fish-Guts) r, which appears in Artificial Intelligence, vol. 34, pp. 39-76); (c) Yoram Moses provided a model for polynomial time knowledge, which can be viewed as a notion of awareness; Yoram's paper appears in the proceedings of the 1988 Conference on Theoretical Aspects of Reasoning About Knowledge; (d) Mark Tuttle, Yoram Moses, and I have .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 Subject: Re: The Grand Challenge is Foolish In article JMC@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU writes: >[In reply to message sent Mon 26 Sep 1988 23:22-EDT.] >If John Nagle thinks that "The lesson of the last five years seems to >be that throwing money at AI is not enormously productive.", he is >also confusing science with engineering. It's like saying that the >lesson of the last five years of astronomy has been unproductive. >Progress in science is measured in longer periods than that. I don't think anyone could have said it better. If AI is going to progress at all, I think it will need quite a bit of time, for its goals seem to be fairly "grand." I think this definitely applies to research in Neural Nets and Connectionism: many people criticize this area, even though it has only really gotten going (again) in the past few years. There *have* been some really interesting discoveries due Mark Tuttle, Yoram Moses, and I have .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 to AI; however, they have not been as amazing and earth-shattering as some would like. In my opinion, the great amount of hype in AI is what leads many people to say stuff such as "throwing money at AI is not enormously productive." If many scientists and companies would stop making their research or products out to be much more than they actually are, I feel that others reviewing the AI field would not be so critical. Many AI researchers and companies need to be much more "modest" in assessing their work; they should not make promises they cannot keep. After all, the goal of achieving true "artificial intelligence" (in the literal sense of the phrase) is not one that will occur in the next two, ten, fifty, one-hundred, or maybe even one-thousand years. .oO Chris Oo. -- Christopher Lishka ...!{rutgers|ucbvax|...}!uwvax!uwslh!lishka iscoveries due Mark Tuttle, Yoram Moses, and I have .TKAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #103 Wisconsin State Lab of Hygiene lishka%uwslh.uucp@cs.wisc.edu Immunology Section (608)262-1617 lishka@uwslh.uucp ---- "...Just because someone is shy and gets straight A's does not mean they won't put wads of gum in your arm pits." - Lynda Barry, "Ernie Pook's Commeek: Gum of Mystery" ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest ******************** e much more "modest" in assessing their work; they should not make promises they cannot keep. After all, the goal of achieving true "artificial intelligence" (in the literal sense of the phrase) is not one that will occur in the next two, ten, fifty, one-hundred, or maybe even one-thousand years. .oO Chris Oo. -- Christopher Lishka ...!{rutgers|ucbvax|...}!uwvax!uwslh!lishka iscoveries due Mark Tuttle, Yoram Moses, and I have .TZ @PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Proposal for sci.mil newsgroup---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Oct 88 20:45:20 GMT From: wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) Article-I.D.: <1509@cbnews.ATT.COM> New Group Proposal: sci.mil Historically, there has been a great deal of discussion of military matters in the various newsgroups on Usenet. In many cases, probably most, these discussions have spawned from other topics, and are inappropriate to the group in which they take place. As examples, consider the recent topic "jet engines" in sci.space, which has become a discussion of German jet and rocket fighters of WWII. Last year, sci.space "hosted" a series of postings  TZ @PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Proposal for sci.mil newsgroupabout the utility of Iowa-class battleships in modern naval warfare. Not a month goes by without SDI debates creating another flare-up in sci.physics and/or sci.space, and sci.misc sees equally frequent arguments over nuclear arms control. Obviously, many Usenet readers are interested in military science; a proper forum would remove most of these postings from inappropriate groups. The proposed newsgroup, sci.mil (name subject to debate) would host any discussion of military matters; theory, history, technology, etc. This would include arms control and SDI, as well as other military matters. Naturally, the strict "definition" for the group is also open to discussion. I invite discussion of this group proposal in news.groups. PLEASE NOTE: this article has been cross-posted to numerous groups which, I believe, contain interested parties. BE SURE to direct any followups to news.groups ONLY ! Alternately, I welcome replies by email; I will  TZ @PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Proposal for sci.mil newsgroupsummarize these and post them to news.groups. ------------------------------ valuable coupon ------------------------------- Bill Thacker cbosgd!cbema!wbt "C" combines the power of assembly language with the flexibility of assembly language. Disclaimer: Farg 'em if they can't take a joke ! ------------------------------- clip and save -------------------------------- -------------------------------- e subject to debate) would host any discussion of military matters; theory, history, technology, etc. This would include arms control and SDI, as well as other military matters. Naturally, the strict "definition" for the group is also open to discussion. I invite discussion of this group proposal in news.groups. PLEASE NOTE: this article has been cross-posted to numerous groups which, I believe, contain interested parties. BE SURE to direct any followups to news.groups ONLY ! Alternately, I welcome replies by email; I will  T_CPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM physics of time |---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Oct 88 08:50:00 GMT From: asg0393@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu Article-I.D.: <108500001@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <1246@cod.NOSC.MIL> And of course there is the mammoth bible of General Relativity: Gravitation by Wheeler et al. It is pretty much a graduate level text in GR. But it has two "tracks" a basic and advanced track through the entire book. The basic track is fairly easy, a good challenge for someone with a good background in physics. Some people don't like the style of it though. -------------------------------- Tf?PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM PI in your face. z---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Oct 88 00:36:03 GMT From: greg@spam.berkeley.edu (Greg) Article-I.D.: <15256@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> In a small attempt to remedy recent confusion on this subject, here are some definitions concerning pi and circles. Definition: pi is the unique number between 3 and 4 such that y(x+2*pi) = y(x), where y satisfies the differential equation y'' + y = 0. Definition: In a Riemannian manifold, a geodesic surface is a surface with zero extrinsic curvature. A sphere is the set of points of distance r from a point c, and a circle is the intersection of a sphere with a two-dimensional geodesic surface containing c. For both the circle and the sphere, c is called the center, and r is called the radius. There may be more than one candidate for the center and radius for a given sphere or circle. Tf?PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM PI in your face.  Definition: A surface S has zero extrinsic curvature if, for every two points p and q sufficiently close to each other, S contains the shortest path from p to q. Definition: For a geodesic surface S, the sectional (intrinsic) curvature at a point p along S is the limit as r->0 of (2 - C_r/pi/r)/r, where C_r is the circumference of a circle of radius r centered at p and contained in S. THIS IS NOT A DEFINITION OF PI. There is a theorem that this limit exists, and therefore C_r approaches 2*pi*r as r->0. I think that for most of you, a definition here of a Riemannian manifold would be unenlightening. Think of it as a space or a surface with a reasonable notion of distance and "no corners or singularities". -- Greg called the center, and r is called the radius. There may be more than one candidate for the center and radius for a given sphere or circle. Tf?PHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM PI in your face. & -------------------------------- trinsic curvature if, for every two points p and q sufficiently close to each other, S contains the shortest path from p to q. Definition: For a geodesic surface S, the sectional (intrinsic) curvature at a point p along S is the limit as r->0 of (2 - C_r/pi/r)/r, where C_r is the circumference of a circle of radius r centered at p and contained in S. THIS IS NOT A DEFINITION OF PI. There is a theorem that this limit exists, and therefore C_r approaches 2*pi*r as r->0. I think that for most of you, a definition here of a Riemannian manifold would be unenlightening. Think of it as a space or a surface with a reasonable notion of distance and "no corners or singularities". -- Greg called the center, and r is called the radius. There may be more than one candidate for the center and radius for a given sphere or circle. TmPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (was---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Oct 88 21:59:43 GMT From: fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) Article-I.D.: <72346@sun.uucp> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <174@leibniz.UUCP> <5700004@silver> <1339@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU> In article <1339@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU>, franklin@rpics (W. Randolph Franklin WRF) writes: > In article <5700004@silver> commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: > >> how much does a shielded nuclear weapon weight ? > > > I have a feeling that an unstated goal behind the search for > transuranic elements is that they might find something with a very > small critical mass that is creatable in macroscopic quantities. > Can anyone verify? *tTmPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons (was-There are some transuranics that might apply; I've read somewhere that a bomb using Californium would be about the size of a .45 bullet. Unfortunately, the stuff has a very sohort half-life. As do most of the elements around the same atomic number. There may be some relatively stable ones around At. No. 140, but they'll be *really* hard to make. Given the expected half-lives, I doubt if anyone seriously expected to get anything useful, in useful quantities, from creating the transuranics past Pu or Np. -------------------------------- ansuranic elements is that they might find something with a very > small critical mass that is creatable in macroscopic quantities. > Can anyone verify? *tTtBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM speed of sound ,---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Oct 88 14:58:04 GMT From: pmr@druks.ATT.COM (Phil Rastocny) Article-I.D.: <554@druks.ATT.COM> Hi there folks, I am looking for some help in determining the speed of sound at different altitudes. In all of the references in our library, only one hints at this subtle change (crude graph) but no formulae are presented in support of this phenomenon. Can anyone provide me with some simple equations for this? AtDhVaAnNkCsE, Phil Rastocny ..!att!druks!pmr Hv@TtBPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM speed of sound $ -------------------------------- ---------------------------- Date: 10 Oct 88 14:58:04 GMT From: pmr@druks.ATT.COM (Phil Rastocny) Article-I.D.: <554@druks.ATT.COM> Hi there folks, I am looking for some help in determining the speed of sound at different altitudes. In all of the references in our library, only one hints at this subtle change (crude graph) but no formulae are presented in support of this phenomenon. Can anyone provide me with some simple equations for this? AtDhVaAnNkCsE, Phil Rastocny ..!att!druks!pmr Hv@TyPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Oct 88 13:29:23 GMT From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) Article-I.D.: <1988Oct11.092923.8354@cs.rochester.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <174@leibniz.UUCP> <5700004@silver> <1339@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU> <72346@sun.uucp> In article <72346@sun.uucp> fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes: >bomb using Californium would be about the size of a .45 bullet. Unfortunately >the stuff has a very short half-life. ... Given the expected half-lives, I > doubt if anyone seriously expected to get anything useful, in useful >quantities, from creating the transuranics past Pu or Np. I read an abstract of an article that claimed that Cm-245 has a critical mass as low as 50 grams. The abstract talked about taking curium-244 from fission waste and irradiating it with fast neutrons in a fusion reactor K TyPHYSICS Physics-Request@unix.SRI.COM Smuggling Nuclear weapons blanket. Cm-245 has a half life of 8,500 years. Paul F. Dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu -------------------------------- l Dietz) Article-I.D.: <1988Oct11.092923.8354@cs.rochester.edu> In-Reply-To: Article(s) <174@leibniz.UUCP> <5700004@silver> <1339@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU> <72346@sun.uucp> In article <72346@sun.uucp> fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes: >bomb using Californium would be about the size of a .45 bullet. Unfortunately >the stuff has a very short half-life. ... Given the expected half-lives, I > doubt if anyone seriously expected to get anything useful, in useful >quantities, from creating the transuranics past Pu or Np. I read an abstract of an article that claimed that Cm-245 has a critical mass as low as 50 grams. The abstract talked about taking curium-244 from fission waste and irradiating it with fast neutrons in a fusion reactor K y;BIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU SuperWorkstations --- request  Dear BIOTECH participants, Hello! This is my first posting to BIOTECH bulletin. We have a plan to buy a graphic supercomputer/workstation. We would like to use it for several purposes, such as molecular modeling, protein 3-D structure prediction, etc. We may also use it to construct a 3-D "graphic brain database" of precision. Could someone out there give us a piece of advice? If you have an experience of using GS1000(Stellar Computer)/Iris(Silicon Graphics)/ Titan(Ardent Computer), please tell us your opinion. Comments on other systems will also be appreciated. Please send message to: osato%ntt-20.NTT.JP@relay.cs.net (from ARPA) ggy;BIOTECH BIOTECH@UMDC.UMD.EDU SuperWorkstations --- request  If I receive enough responses, I will summarize to the net. Thanks in advance, - Nobuyasu Osato - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nobuyasu Osato ARPA: osato%ntt-20.ntt.jp@relay.cs.net NTT Software Laboratories (NTT: Japanese Domestic Telephone Company) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- experience of using GS1000(Stellar Computer)/Iris(Silicon Graphics)/ Titan(Ardent Computer), please tell us your opinion. Comments on other systems will also be appreciated. Please send message to: osato%ntt-20.NTT.JP@relay.cs.net (from ARPA) ggyAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 v AIList Digest Wednesday, 12 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 105 Philosophy -- Consciousness (4 messages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Oct 88 18:48:27 PDT From: larry@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV Subject: Philosophy: Consciousness >Self-awareness may, in turn, be defined as the capacity of a sentient >system to monitor itself. Over the years I've heard many people object to self-referential systems for a variety of reasons (in AIList, for instance, in the recent discussion of linguistic paradoxes.) Some of this seems to based on emotional grounds, -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 others on the fact that we have no analytical theory to handle self-reference. Yet self-reference seems to be at the core of much human thought, certainly of consciousness, so we must develop such theory. ------------ >Julian Jaynes (The Origin of Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind) >is very persuasive when he argues that consciousness is not >required for use of human language or every-day human activities. Human thought seems to be a hierarchy of cooperating (and sometimes competing processes). Consciousness seems to have a (the?) major role of integrating these processes. So even though the components of human-language use might not require consciousness, the fullest use of human language would. ------------ > [W]ould such a machine have to be "creative"? And if so, how would >we measure the machine's creativity? -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 L(Apologies to any who've heard this before.) As an artist in several art forms (though expert in only a couple), I use creativity as routinely and reflexively as I walk. It's no more (and no less) mysterious than walking. Basically, creativity is the combining of memes (which I define as MEMory Elements) to form more complex memes. This combining has a random element but is guided to some extent. One form of guidance involves a goal-seeking mechanism that provides a mask against which new memes are compared. Parts of the mask have don't-care attributes that can be turned on or off to make the search for a solution more or less open. Those that filter through the mask then become part of the meme-pool and can be used as components of other memes, or mutated to form yet-newer memes. A fair amount of skill is involved in selecting the right amount of meme-passing. Too little and one is over-whelmed by wild ideas; too much and you may filter out the odd but elegant solution--or the ridiculous solution that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105  Skill is also involved in setting up the creative search. Most of the search is done subconsciously, but it is launched by a conscious decision. Before this is done, you must stock up on memes relevant to the problem, which includes ingesting them (via reading, talking with co-workers, watching videos or experiments, etc.) and learning them (by playing with them and through repetition making them part of long-term memory). And skill is involved in insuring that conscious activity does not interefere with the subconscious search. Part of this involves staying away from the particular problem or similar problems, and keeping from launching a second creative episode before receiving the results of the first. I see no reason, however, why the conscious mechanisms that affect creativity should have to be conscious. This is not to conclude that it doesn't enrich or support the mechanisms of consciousness. ild ideas; too much and you may filter out the odd but elegant solution--or the ridiculous solution that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105  Larry @ vlsi.jpl.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 88 13:20:01 GMT From: bwk@mitre-bedford.arpa (Barry W. Kort) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? In article <263@balder.esosun.UUCP> jackson@esosun.UUCP (Jerry Jackson) writes: >Consciousness is a *subjective* phenomenon. >It is truly not even possible to determine if your neighbor is conscious. I think the best way to determine if someone is conscious is to carry on a conversation with them. (The interaction need not be verbal. One can use visual or tactile channels, or non-verbal auditory channels.) second creative episode before receiving the results of the first. I see no reason, however, why the conscious mechanisms that affect creativity should have to be conscious. This is not to conclude that it doesn't enrich or support the mechanisms of consciousness. ild ideas; too much and you may filter out the odd but elegant solution--or the ridiculous solution that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 mThere are interesting anecdotes about autistic children who were coaxed into normal modes of communication by starting with primitive stimulus- response modes. The Helen Keller story also dramatizes such a breakthrough. One of the frontiers is the creation of a common language between humans and other intelligent mammals such as chimps and dolphins. --Barry Kort ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 88 00:17:53 GMT From: clyde!watmath!watdcsu!smann@bellcore.bellcore.com (Shannon Mann - I.S.er) Subject: Re: Intelligence / Consciousness Test for Machines (Neural-Nets)??? nnels, or non-verbal auditory channels.) second creative episode before receiving the results of the first. I see no reason, however, why the conscious mechanisms that affect creativity should have to be conscious. This is not to conclude that it doesn't enrich or support the mechanisms of consciousness. ild ideas; too much and you may filter out the odd but elegant solution--or the ridiculous solution that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 In article <1141@usfvax2.EDU> mician@usfvax2.usf.edu.UUCP (Rudy Mician) writes: >When can a machine be considered a conscious entity? > >For instance, if a massive neural-net were to start from a stochastic state >and learn to interact with its environment in the same way that people do >(interact not think), how could one tell that such a machine thinks or exists >(in the same context as Descarte's "COGITO ERGO SUM"/"DUBITO ERGO SUM" >argument- that is, how could one tell whether or not an "I" exists for the >machine? Only the _machine_ can adequately answer the question. If the _machine_ asks 'What/Who Am I?', by the definition of self-awareness (any reasonable one I can think of) the machine is self-aware. If the _machine_ can sense and react to the environment, it is (on some primitive level) aware. Science has already provided us with machines that are far more _aware_ than the common amoeba. Until the science community refines its' ideas of what awareness, and self- -or the ridiculous solution that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 awareness entails, the above question cannot be answered with any accuracy. Is it possible? Certainly! Consciousness occurs with in biological systems, so why not mechanical systems of sufficient complexity. If we consider the vastness of space and time, and that an event can occur once, it is reasonable to conclude that _self-awareness_ will occur out there again and that, more than likely, it will be in a different form than ours. Knowing this, is it so difficult to accept the possibility of creating the same? >Furthermore, would such a machine have to be "creative"? And if so, how would >we measure the machine's creativity? This question could/should be asked about humans. When is a human creative? When We invent something, is it not the re-application of some known idea? Or an accidental discovery? In my mind, creativity is the ability to syn- thesize _something_ from a group of _something_different_. My definition does not include the concept of self-direction, and so should be modified. n that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 Regardless, it does touch upon the basic idea that _to_create_ means to take _what_is_ and make _something_new_. By this definition, _life_ is creative :-) >I suspect that the Turing Test is no longer an adequate means of judging >whether or not a machine is intelligent. Here we go upon a different tack. Intelligence is quite different than self- awareness. I do not want to define intelligence as it is a term that is used and misused in so many ways that coherent dialog about the subject is highly suspect of worth. My definition certainly would not clear up any ambiguity, but would probably create a flame war of criticism. Self-awareness is exactly that, to be aware of one-self, separate from the environment you exist in. Intelligence... well, you go figure. However, there is a difference. >If anyone has any ideas, comments, or insights into the above questions or any >questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. of self-direction, and so should be modified. n that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 [Well, you asked.... I know about much of the research that has been done on the topic of self-learning systems. The idea is that, if a machine can learn like humans, then it must be like humans. However, humans do not learn in the simplified manner that these systems employ. Humans use a system where they learn how a particular system or process works, and then can re-apply that heuristic (am I using this term correctly?) under different circumstances. Has the heuristic approach be attempted in machine learning systems? I don't believe so, and would appreciate any response. >Rudy Mician mician@usfvax2.usf.edu >Usenet: ...!{ihnp4, cbatt}!codas!usfvax2!mician -=- -=- Shannon Mann -=- smann@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca -=- P.S. Please do not respond with any egocentric views about what it is to be mments, or insights into the above questions or any >questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. of self-direction, and so should be modified. n that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 human, etc. I see Humanity as different than the rest of the animal kingdom, but, in no way superior. Having the power to damage our planet the way we do does not mean we our superior. Possessing and using that power only shows our foolishness. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 88 00:33:52 GMT From: clyde!watmath!watdcsu!smann@bellcore.bellcore.com (Shannon Mann - I.S.er) Subject: Re: Here's one ... In article <409@soleil.UUCP> peru@soleil.UUCP (Dave Peru) writes: > >Have you ever thought about what the brain is doing between thoughts? Thinking, what else? We are aware of one thought/idea/concept etc. at one ...!{ihnp4, cbatt}!codas!usfvax2!mician -=- -=- Shannon Mann -=- smann@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca -=- P.S. Please do not respond with any egocentric views about what it is to be mments, or insights into the above questions or any >questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. of self-direction, and so should be modified. n that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 time. Evidently, the mind does not cease functioning when we choose not to focus upon it's internal workings. There is a continuous cosmic soup of thought circulating through your brain at any one time, operating at many different levels. Our awareness is of only a small segment of the total whole. For example. The mind is constantly deleting stimulus that doesn't change (stimulus adaptation). We are not conscious of the process, yet, it is con- tinuous. Next question... Is this thought? -=- -=- Shannon Mann -=- smann@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca -=- ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest etc. at one ...!{ihnp4, cbatt}!codas!usfvax2!mician -=- -=- Shannon Mann -=- smann@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca -=- P.S. Please do not respond with any egocentric views about what it is to be mments, or insights into the above questions or any >questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. of self-direction, and so should be modified. n that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -yAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #105 ******************** nd does not cease functioning when we choose not to focus upon it's internal workings. There is a continuous cosmic soup of thought circulating through your brain at any one time, operating at many different levels. Our awareness is of only a small segment of the total whole. For example. The mind is constantly deleting stimulus that doesn't change (stimulus adaptation). We are not conscious of the process, yet, it is con- tinuous. Next question... Is this thought? -=- -=- Shannon Mann -=- smann@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca -=- ------------------------------ End of AIList Digest etc. at one ...!{ihnp4, cbatt}!codas!usfvax2!mician -=- -=- Shannon Mann -=- smann@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca -=- P.S. Please do not respond with any egocentric views about what it is to be mments, or insights into the above questions or any >questions that might be raised by them, please don't hesitate to reply. of self-direction, and so should be modified. n that forms the root of a search that does find the solution. -AILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 | AIList Digest Wednesday, 12 Oct 1988 Volume 8 : Issue 104 Queries: PDP and Neural Networks in Music Research Classifier system software packages AI and 'Conventional' programming PFL CLOS & CommonLOOPS Responses: TICOM AI applications to building design and construction Language Translator (lisp) knowledge acquisition info `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104  AAAI-88 Proceedings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 11 Oct 1988 14:19 CDT From: Subject: PDP and Neural Networks in Music Research Does anyone have any references on papers regearding the use of Parallel Distributed Processing or Neural Networks in Music Research? I saw that the Computer Music Journal is calling for papers on the topic, if nyone has heard of any research, please let me know via email. I am intersted in a neural network topic for my M.S. thesis, so I cannot wait for the CMJ issue to come out. Any help will be appreciated. thankx. Jeff Beer, Academic Computing Northeastern Ill University, UUCJEFF@ECNCDC.BITNET `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104  disclaimer: Myreference to Computer Music Journal's call for papers is on my behalf, I am not speaking on their behalf. Please do not interpret as on thier behalf. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 88 14:05:20 GMT From: steinmetz!boston!powell@itsgw.rpi.edu (Powell) Subject: Classifier system software packages Recently, I have read some interesting articles on induction and classifier systems. To better understand their capabilities and functionalities, I am looking for a free, classifier software package to experiment with. I have recently used John Grefenstette's very impressive GENESIS package for optimization and became very excited and convinced about the capabilities rsity, UUCJEFF@ECNCDC.BITNET `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 wof genetic algorithms. I would now like to experiment with a classifier system as described by Holland with a bucket brigade or similar algorithm for credit apportionment and a genetic algorithm for rule combination. If someone can send me such a package then I can quickly evaluate the power and appropriateness of classifiers to my problem. Thanks in advance Dave Powell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 88 09:37:27 -0400 From: davis%community-chest.mitre.org@gateway.mitre.org Subject: AI and 'Conventional' programming I have an interest in merging AI technology with software development ckage for optimization and became very excited and convinced about the capabilities rsity, UUCJEFF@ECNCDC.BITNET `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 0for large, conventional projects, particularly in Ada. I observe a trend in private industry and government toward attempting to use Expert system tools as a part of delivered products, to be used by non-engineers/scientists. An aspect of this trend is the potential to assist members of development teams in software engineering in managing complexity. There have been some articles published in this general area during the last 4-5 years, dealing with high-level/specification languages, modelling, and rule-based formal proofs of software requirements, which suggests that some useful work is being done. I would like to see if there is an interest in these areas on the part of others who read the AI bulletin board, and to offer published information related to these interests. Dave Davis `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 > ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 88 10:07 +0100 From: fred moerman Subject: PFL A Frame-based representation language : PFL. ============================================ In the November and December issues of "AI Expert", mr.Tim Finn describes a pedagogical frame language : PFL. He explains some of the principles of repesenting knowledge with a FBRL, using this LISP-based frame language. He also mentioned that a version is ported to VAXLISP, and that is why I posted this ggests that some useful work is being done. I would like to see if there is an interest in these areas on the part of others who read the AI bulletin board, and to offer published information related to these interests. Dave Davis `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 mrequest. Is there anyone who can help me get hold of such a public domain frame-based language. It should preferably be able to run on our VAX, but a version for either Macintosh or IBM-PC are welcome as well. Thanks, Fred Moerman. Fred Moerman Inst. for Informatikk UNIT-AVH e : PFL. He explains some of the principles of repesenting knowledge with a FBRL, using this LISP-based frame language. He also mentioned that a version is ported to VAXLISP, and that is why I posted this ggests that some useful work is being done. I would like to see if there is an interest in these areas on the part of others who read the AI bulletin board, and to offer published information related to these interests. Dave Davis `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 N-7055 Dragvoll NORWAY. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Oct 88 19:03 O From: Antti Ylikoski tel +358 0 457 2704 Subject: CLOS & CommonLOOPS I would be very grateful if someone could let me know if an academic license for the CLOS, the Common Lisp Object System, is available. I would also like to know whom to contact to obtain it and the price. Also, I would like to know if an academic license for the CommonLOOPS tioned that a version is ported to VAXLISP, and that is why I posted this ggests that some useful work is being done. I would like to see if there is an interest in these areas on the part of others who read the AI bulletin board, and to offer published information related to these interests. Dave Davis `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 0is available. Thanks in advance, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Antti Ylikoski |YLIKOSKI@FINFUN (BITNET) Helsinki University of Technology | Laboratory of Information Processing |ay@hutcs.hut.fi (UUCP) Science | Otakaari 5 A | SF-02150 Espoo, Finland | ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 88 22:58:28 GMT From: eric@aragorn.cm.deakin.OZ (Eric Y.H. Tsui) posted this ggests that some useful work is being done. I would like to see if there is an interest in these areas on the part of others who read the AI bulletin board, and to offer published information related to these interests. Dave Davis `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 LReply-to: eric@aragorn.UUCP (Eric Y.H. Tsui) Subject: Re: TICOM Information about the TICOM (The Internal COntrol Model) can be obtained from Professor Andrew Bailey, Arthur Young Professor of Accounting, School of Accounting, University of Minnesota. I have a few papers about this system and I can send the references to you, if you want. Eric Tsui eric@aragorn.oz Division of Computing and Mathematics D e a k i n U n i v e r s i t y Geelong, Victoria 3217 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 88 16:40:16 EDT me useful work is being done. I would like to see if there is an interest in these areas on the part of others who read the AI bulletin board, and to offer published information related to these interests. Dave Davis `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 From: info@scarecrow.csee.lehigh.edu (Info Directory-x4508) Subject: RE: AI applications to building design and construction In response to sean@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Sean McLinden) query for pointers to AI applications to building design and construction Sean states: >I am well aware of a number of AI applications to CAD that are used >in building design, but I am curious to know if anyone has looked at >the various processes that occur during the engineering phase of a >project.... >Considering the number of dollars involved in U.S. Government funded >construction, it seems that GSA or OMB might be interested in developing >such a system. As part of a government directive to assist the U.S. construction fer published information related to these interests. Dave Davis `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 industry to be more competative in the world marketplace, Lehigh University was awarded a NSF block grant of $10 million to develop technical innovations for the industry. Lehigh University's NSF sponsored Advanced Technology for Large Structural Systems (ATLSS) Engineering Research Center has several projects, some of which are looking into developing intelligent interfaces between various phases/processes of the multi-million dollar fragmented construction industry. >There is a common expertise between participants which >allows them to make decisions quickly by sifting through a lot of >information while retrieving only that which pertains to the problem >at hand. True. It is this fact that allows us to start developing intelligent interfaces between these groups. Only the necessary information required to make a decision is asked. The rest is shared amongst the `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 players involved in the construction process. The key is to determine and classify the common information and the specific information required to assist in making construction decisions. The project that I am involved in is the Designer/Fabricator Interface (DFI) which will assist design engineers in understanding downstream fabrication and erection problems associated by their upstream design decisions. The initial limited domain of DFI deals with design fitup of beam to column connections in buildings. The DFI system critiques the designer's initial connection details and reports gross and subtle fitup errors before he sends out his design document for bid to fabricators. This requires the system to utilize general fabrication and erection knowledge in one mode of operation and specific knowledge if a particular fabricator has won the bid and is working closely with the designer. The system will later be expanded to include fitup of beam to beam `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 connections as well as provide a functional critique (real Civil Engineering strength issues). Also, an architect/designer interface is under development as well as completion of several specific KB systems (including simple connection design and bridge fatigue investigator (BFI) that determins what to do in repairing cracks in bridges). For more information contact: General ATLSS Information KBS Systems Information Dr. John Fisher Dr. John Wilson Director, ATLSS Center KBS Thrust Leader Room A206 Room 220 Building H Fritz Engineering Lab, #13 r bid to fabricators. This requires the system to utilize general fabrication and erection knowledge in one mode of operation and specific knowledge if a particular fabricator has won the bid and is working closely with the designer. The system will later be expanded to include fitup of beam to beam `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 8 Lehigh University Lehigh University Bethlehem, PA 18015 Bethlehem, PA 18015 (215)758-3535 (215)758-4828 jwf2@lehigh.BITNET jlw2@lehigh.BITNET or jwf2%lehigh.bitnet@ibm1.cc.lehigh.edu jlw2%lehigh.bitnet@ibm1.cc.lehigh.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 88 22:20:15 GMT From: sunybcs!rapaport@rutgers.edu (William J. Rapaport) Subject: Response to: Language Translator (lisp) In article <227@tekn01.chalmers.se> m85_miche@tekn01.chalmers.se > eader Room A206 Room 220 Building H Fritz Engineering Lab, #13 r bid to fabricators. This requires the system to utilize general fabrication and erection knowledge in one mode of operation and specific knowledge if a particular fabricator has won the bid and is working closely with the designer. The system will later be expanded to include fitup of beam to beam `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 />Is there by any chance anyone sitting on a source translating some >language to another ? > >Which litterature can I seek what I want ? There are several sources of info on machine translation. Begin with "Machine Translation" in S. C. Shapiro (ed.), Encyclopedia of AI (Wiley, 1987). There are two recent books: Sergei Nirenburg (ed.), Machine Translation: Theoretical and Methodological Issues (Cambridge UP, 1987). and another book by, I think, a fellow named Hutchings, published by Ellis Horwood, in England; it's a good survey. s.se > eader Room A206 Room 220 Building H Fritz Engineering Lab, #13 r bid to fabricators. This requires the system to utilize general fabrication and erection knowledge in one mode of operation and specific knowledge if a particular fabricator has won the bid and is working closely with the designer. The system will later be expanded to include fitup of beam to beam `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 QThere are two major journals: Computational Linguistics, published by MIT Press for the Association for Computational Linguistics, and Computers and Translation, published by Kluwer Academic Publishers. William J. Rapaport Associate Professor Dept. of Computer Science||internet: rapaport@cs.buffalo.edu SUNY Buffalo ||bitnet: rapaport@sunybcs.bitnet Buffalo, NY 14260 ||uucp: {decvax,watmath,rutgers}!sunybcs!rapaport (716) 636-3193, 3180 ||fax: (716) 636-3464 Room 220 Building H Fritz Engineering Lab, #13 r bid to fabricators. This requires the system to utilize general fabrication and erection knowledge in one mode of operation and specific knowledge if a particular fabricator has won the bid and is working closely with the designer. The system will later be expanded to include fitup of beam to beam `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104  ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 88 20:32:12 GMT From: att!alberta!calgary!!gaines@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Brian Gaines) Subject: Re: knowledge acquisition info In article <25126@bu-cs.BU.EDU>, gao@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Yong Gao) writes: > More requests! > > Could somebody tell me where to order proceedings for: > > 1. the 5th Machine Intelligence workshop > > 2. the Knowledge Acquisition for Knowledge Based Systems Workshop, Banff, > Canada, 1986 and 1987. > ||uucp: {decvax,watmath,rutgers}!sunybcs!rapaport (716) 636-3193, 3180 ||fax: (716) 636-3464 Room 220 Building H Fritz Engineering Lab, #13 r bid to fabricators. This requires the system to utilize general fabrication and erection knowledge in one mode of operation and specific knowledge if a particular fabricator has won the bid and is working closely with the designer. The system will later be expanded to include fitup of beam to beam `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 > Thanks. > > Yong Gao (gao@bu-cs.bu.edu) > Dept. of Computer Science > Boston University The following notes are a complete guide to getting the KAW papers: Knowledge Acquisition Workshop Publications We are attempting to make the Knowledge Acquisition Workshop materials as widely available as possible. The following sections detail the availability of publications from each workshop. KAW86, Banff, November 1986 orkshop, Banff, > Canada, 1986 and 1987. > ||uucp: {decvax,watmath,rutgers}!sunybcs!rapaport (716) 636-3193, 3180 ||fax: (716) 636-3464 Room 220 Building H Fritz Engineering Lab, #13 r bid to fabricators. This requires the system to utilize general fabrication and erection knowledge in one mode of operation and specific knowledge if a particular fabricator has won the bid and is working closely with the designer. The system will later be expanded to include fitup of beam to beam `lAILIST AIList-REQUEST@AI.AI.MIT.EDU AIList Digest V8 #104 nPreprints distributed to attendees only.